Kate practices the agony face ready for Oprah's big show
Caring parents Kate and Gerry McCann, jet off to the States for this year's anniversary do (is the mug behind them their bodyguard??)
The McCanns on last year's Anniversary do, seems to be the only time they think about looking for their daughter, time is clearly not of the essenceKate McCann breaks down on Oprah
KATE McCann wept last night as she told TV’s Oprah Winfrey she did not recognise photos of how missing daughter Maddie would look now.
But Kate insisted she WOULD know Maddie — who will be six next month — if she saw her in the street.
Kate, 41, and husband Gerry, 40, appeared on the US chat queen’s show to mark two years since Maddie vanished on holiday in Portugal — just days before her fourth birthday.
Computer-generated images of Maddie aged six in a blue dress flashed on to a giant screen as the show was recorded in front of a studio audience in Chicago.
The pictures were created by experts at Virginia’s National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children.
Audience member Chris Myers, 43, said: “Kate told Oprah she felt Madeleine was still alive.
“Oprah and Kate were very emotional. Kate broke down on two occasions.
"Oprah had to wipe tears away from her eyes at least three times. The atmosphere inside the studio was very sad.”
Fellow audience member Amy Mundwiler, 33, added: “Everyone watching them felt their pain.”
Oprah will also spend a day in Britain with Gerry and Kate, from Rothley, Leics, and their twins Sean and Amelie, four.
The show — to be screened in 144 countries — goes out in the US on May 4, a day after the anniversary of Maddie’s disappearance.
112 comments:
Hi Viv
Thanks for the new post and for sending my questions to Oprah.
I personally think all the questions will have been approved firstly by team McCann and pinky, but who knows.
I question why Oprah is coming to Rothley to video in Kate & Gerrys home? I have never known Oprah to do anything like this before. Something is not right with this, and it smacks of interference once again.
I never thought we would hear what we wanted to from the Oprah interview, but sadly this is worse than I thought.
Something else I have noticed on 3 A's, the pros who disrupted every thread have gone very quiet, why?
Where is Madeleine?
Come on everyone start to remember why we are all here. We are here for Madeleine and not what issues we have with her parents or for that matter with each other.
Can we please bury the hatchet and get back on track.
When DE HYS started deleting our posts, and eventually closed us down, who was it who gave us another lifeline......
VIV....please remember that..
Thank you Viv for allowing free speach and voice for Madeleine.
xx
Questions Oprah SHOULD ask given she is meant to be queen of the chatshows. I think she should see herself as David Frost interviewing Nixon when she does this show.
eg Oprah: Can I ask you Kate as one mother to another how could you wash Madeliene's cuddle cat toy when her smell is on it? To me and other's watching that act would be like you are washing away and distancing yourself from your daughter
eg Oprah: Gerry is it true that you used a blue tennis holdall on that holiday and it went missing ?
eg Oprah: Kate & Gerry, It is widely reported that you both did not go out and search for Madeleine the night she apparently went missing. I find that strange. Can I ask why complete strangers felt compelled to search and you both stayed in to ring people at home?
eg Oprah:Further to my last point did you tell your friends and family that the shutters had been broken into?
eg Oprah: Is it true the lady upstairs asked if she should call the police and you mentioned that you had already done that even though you hadn't?
eg Oprah: Another thing that intrigues me Gerry about you is that when you wrote your blog you barely mentioned Madeleine. ?
eg Oprah: Also, when did you become aware that the fund monies were being used to fund your mortgage.
eg Oprah: People would also like to know who these text messages were too on the day Madeleine went missing?
eg Oprah: The police dogs Eddie and Keela seemed to detect odour and blood relating to Madeleine. what are your thoughts on that Gerry?
eg Oprah: Kate, mother to mother here. Why did you not answer those police questions when your daughter was still missing? You must realsie it doesn't look good?
eg:Oprah: Kate, as a mother I also find it odd that you ran out of the apartment and said something like 'They've taken her' What did you mean by that and why didn't you take the little ones with you at that moment?
eg Oprah: One visual that I keep thinking about is how joyful you seemed just one week after her disappearance when you departed the church. How was it that you could walk out smiling like that?
eg Oprah: Many find it suspicious that you did not return to carry out a reconstruction when traditionally these prove very helpful at clarifying events, Can you explain why when your daughter is still missing you did not do that?
eg Oprah: What is your relationship with the other members of your holiday group.
eg Kate, have you seen that the Gaspar family have given a statement that implicates a member of your group and your husband with strange sexualised gestures?
eg Oprah: Do you remember the bath time that evening. Bathing 3 children is usually a stressful task after a long day. What can you rememeber about your last bathtime with Madeleine.
eg Oprah: Once again can you please tell us mother's out there why you washed Madeleine's cuddle cat and thus were unable to smell her on it anymore?
An interesting comment..
Author Message
LikeaStudentLoanOverdraft Post subject: Following Oprah - Has the Penny Dropped?Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:54 am
Been Cautioned
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:59 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Dublin, Ireland I must say in the weeks leading up to the Oprah show I was amazed and astounded how so many of you were so hopeful (once again) that "this time" the media would validate you all and get the truth out.
So the predictable engineered McMedia circus failed you all once again for the 1,000th time let you down. Are you seeing a pattern here?
At what point are some of you actually going to come to terms with what's happening here is way bigger and more sinister than a couple of doctors beating a child neglect rap? The entire global media machine (sorry to break it to you but Portuguese TV is not big media) are right behind the McCann's including their main gatekeeper Oprah Winfrey to add to all the others already working for the "pact of silence".
What will it take for people on the 3A's site to emerge from your hopeful slumber that journalists/media/celebs/politicians are going to validate your "child neglect" agenda and get justice for Maddy?
How long before you wake up?
How long before the penny drops that this is an international security issue and the McCann's are protected at the heighest levels of world government? And then ask yourself why this is?
How long before you realise that a snide comment from a journalist buried in some editorial is not justice for Maddy McCann?
How long before you open your eyes and see the bigger picture?
How long before people who start threads on this board relating to government mind control breeding programmes (which are fully validated), Freemasons, satanic child abuse among the elite are not automatically declared "fruitcakes" by the McShills on this board who call such ideas "lunacy" and started by "wingnuts" before you all return to another round of "the media will tell the truth this time!" Before the mods hurl the threads off The Way Forward board and into the Conspiricy Board so you can all be held in your child neglect cage and not think outside the box?
How long before you cross that boundary, or are you going to forever hold out that some paid hack is going to save the day when they are all part and parcel of the same elite driving this whole agenda?
How long, before the "insane" becomes reasonable?
aks yourselves one simple question. "what kind of people have pacts of silence?" A couple of upper middle class doctors and their friends looking to not get struck off.
Or maybe, just maybe you all got in a window into how sick and dysfunctional our governments, media, and elites really are and how they at the drop of a hat can all rally together to slam this widow shut again before you slaves and minions see what has always been hidden from you all your lives.
You can either call me a "nut" and hold out for Jerry Springer to save the day, or you can step through the looking class and start to get real answers.
The chioce is yours.
Hi Di
good post Madeleine is the only important thing in this whole sorry mess...
I have to ask why her parents are being so unhelpful if she is really missing it is pure evil to act the way they have putting her saftey in grave danger...
As for Oprah if she goes along with everything they say then all her charity work on behalf of children is a waste of time why is Madeleine not as important as every other Neglected child???
Shannon Mathews thank god was saved and I still smile when I think of her the day she was found I was overjoyed she was alive and thank god for her life.... Why is Madeleine not as important as Shannon it seems to me the police the press and now Oprah feel Madeleine is just not worth the truth.
There are many things wrong with what the Tapas 9 got up to before and after the alarm was raised but just the fact Kate refused to answer a single question for her child speaks volumes but I guess Oprah is there for her Poor parents Madeleine is fine and giving her tuppence worth to whatever evil scum has her...
God forbid either of my girls go missing but please dont worry about me just make sure everyone including myself and their Father are investigated fully....
Madeleine McCann aged 3 years old neglected and pushed out of the picture and her fund spent on lawyers, media monotoring, A fraud investigation team and wages for the Directors...
I have to say yes, governments can cover up, you only have to watch Zeitgeist-the movie to see this.
However, why would our government cover up for Kate & Gerry, what would be the point.
I would also like to know why BK involved himself, that is a big question.
Hi Hope
Why are we not seeing these aged images of Madeleine, released on the Oprah show, across the papers today. Ah no sorry they cannot be shown until the show is aired.
Wake up K & G, if you truly believe your daughter is out there and can be found, get these images released immediately into the press.
However we all know that is not going to happen don't we. Money speaks louder than untimely press releases, so so sad.
Off to watch tv.
I am sure by now the McCanns will have a full set of questions to be asked by Oprah. Nothing will be left to chance. I would expect a very polished performance by the pair and really wouldn’t put it past Team McCann to have employed a drama coach to tutor them into an academy winning performance.
I posted the above a couple days ago and I see today’s new thread indicates the drama coaching aspect to be true.
Why oh why do they continue with this charade I sometimes despair. They know what happened to their daughter and we know they know - but still the charade goes on.
Hi All,
I’ve been following this case for so long now I even answer my own questions. Why do they continue with this charade (my previous post) – well they have too much to lose if they don’t.
Hi Wizard
I agree they have to continue they have eveything to loose...
As time goes on I am at a loss what to say but I cant belive that any Mother no matter what she thought of her child would refuse to answer valid police questions on their behalf if their child was really missing...
It goes beyond evil to just sit back and complain that everyone else is letting your child down when you have done nothing to help find her...
Keeping her profile in the press is about all they have done but to have an aged picture of her that will not be shown until the TV raitings are high enough on Oprah is discusting. Many parents with missing children would love to have this done for them and all the publicity to show it off. What if I was sat next to Madeleine now but did not know it as the picture will not be shown until May???
Sadly many children will look like the aged picture how many more families are going to have idiots trying to remove thier child from them or have thier picture splashed accross the News with shoddy CCTV pictures...?
If they dont know where Madeleine is the sick game of spin they have played with her life is evil and I really cant belive Kate at least is that uncaring...
She looks older and haunted although can still smile for the cameras but if any of us had lied for nearly two years I think we would all have cracked up by now. I would rather go to jail (and if I had killed my child would deserve to be there)but after 2 years of lies if there had been an accident would be releaved to be free from it all and prison would be a release to grieve for my child whom I had let down...
No I cant belive they dont know where she is because if they dont and one wonderful day she is found in the years ahead I belive she would find the way they had acted heartless and she may ask them what the hell they had to look so happy about on her 4th Birthday when she was in the depths of hell...
Hiya guys and thanks for some very interesting posts.
I still tend to think that Madeleine was a victim of sexual abuse and was then got rid of by Gerry, Payne and OB in a planned scheme to both get away with what they did to her and for Gerry and Kate to make a huge amount of money out of it. I just wonder if Oprah, like me, believes that Madeleine may still be alive and feels desperately sorry for Kate. Perhaps wants to spend a day with them and try and understand the dynamics of this family just a little better?
When Payne speaks about Gerry it is almost like hero worship and he says they have been friends since University days. We know Gerry went to Glasgow, where did Payne go?
The other alternative with Oprah is this couple represent massive public interest and a huge opportunity to breed vast piles of money out of this story. That she does not care one little bit what happened to Madeleine.
For the answers to that I think we will just have to wait and see.
As for the pros going very quiet. Sabot and Chinadoll were very active on a thread a few days ago, but I think I and a few others did a pretty good job of crushing them and they just gave up.
Sometimes it is hard to make sense of all of this. But maybe we should remember one thing, neither the Portuguese or British Police or the Home Office have ever publically supported the McCanns or suggested they are innocent. If our Agencies in UK actually felt the McCanns were innocent I believe they would have said so.
I think claims of a coverup are absurd. The McCanns would not be going on Oprah if this were the case, they would be shutting up, content in the knowledge they are never going to be brought to justice. Their conduct suggests quite the opposite!
Wiz, I think you answered your own question very well indeed. This case is far more serious than people think. Madeleine did not die through some accident, this case is nothing to do with mere neglect, that is just a cover for what really happened.
Gerry is a Narcissist and will never give up with his publicity schemes, he does have far too much to lose. He would have to exchange a comfortable life with the prospect of money keep rolling in to about £10 per week he could earn for comforts in his prison cell. More than reason enough to keep Gerry highly active!
x
Di I certainly agree with the poster you quoted that people should think a little more outside the box and stop just blindly accepting what other people tell them.
When you look at the PJ report there simply was no evidence at all that Madeleine died in that flat, but there was evidence the McCanns and Co did their best to trash the crime scene and as educated people they would surely have known better. I believe they shelved the case because proving what really happened would be something only UK authorities could ultimately do and Amaral does not provide the answer at all. He just relies on their own timelines etc to suggest something happened that simply was impossible as an explanation. The only way this could have been properly done is if the TAPAS 9 had agreed to go ahead with the reconstruction but of course they refuse. There seems to be a lot of evidence that Madeleine was noted missing by Kate much earlier in the evening i.e. perhaps about 9.15. This does fit with the evidence of the Carpenters they heard someone calling Madeleine, Madeleine around 9.30. This would also tend to suggest that Kate had nothing to do with Madeleine being "abducted".
This is very interesting with Payne saying he was going through the options of what happened with Gerry, in private, in Gerry's bedroom. I find it very chilling that Payne seems to stress it was Kate feeling she had let her down.
Who was it who went to the police station!!
1485 "Once the alarm had been raised you said that you all got up and its, with the exception of Dianne, everybody ran to the assistance.”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "Exactly what did you do?”
Reply "Err we, you know, we ran up err to the apartment, you know, with, with err you know Kate and Gerry err and you know for me, I just wanted to know, as I say, about the access to the apartment, were those gates open, err because in my mind was that if the front door was shut there was no, you know there won’t be, you know there was no way that she could have wandered out that way and nor would they have gained access in that way. Err also obviously the, the, the issue with the, the shutters had been raised, was brought up err you know on the way up as well and then I was asking about the gates being shut at that back and she said well both gates you know were shut, so in my mind, you know, that had ruled it out that Madeleine had err had wandered off. Err you know, Madeleine’s err, you know, was a very bright child and you know it would just seem so inconceivable that she would have wandered off you know, especially you know, when she was sleepy you know, we put that argument forward, but then you know sleeping chil, sleepy children you know don’t put, shut the doors you know behind them and child gates, you know, so, so that was my initial thoughts err and again you know we, we, I’m sure we went into the apartment, just looked and you know, incredulously you know well where, err where could she be, you know, you know we just looked in the obvious err places and then err you know obviously Kate and Gerry were just completely, you know, hysterical err you know at this stage. Err and then we just, you know then we went to do the sweeps around the place and I said, as I said before, I went up to look at our apartment to check, check the girls were alright and you know, and the actual order that this all happened, you know, it’s just err a complete eye opener up for us to see you know what other unfor, unfortunate people have been through just to what a destabilising effect, you know, that circumstances has on you or, and you know I, I think most people had a, you know, idea of, pretty exactly what happened that day leaving but you know after that I think people find it really difficult generally to say exactly what they did and when. Err but as I say we went err we went to the apartment and had a look round and then err I had a look quite earlier on to see err whether the, err girls were alright. I then at some stage went back to see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is, I went to, I just had a quick look at the tennis courts and just basically swept around the, the area just to make, make sure you know that, ah this can’t, can’t be what’s happened, she must have you know, you just don’t want to weigh up that option, it just wasn’t an option that could have happened but you knew it had happened and err, and then as I say we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we’ve got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I’ll, I’ll you know so he went off down to the Police Station and you know, you know we waited as I say for the Police to arrive and we, our, I think it was in between them arriving or when they arrived that I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom. I looked, you know I say I looked in all the rocks and you know just went along the whole beach shouting out and identifying people. Err the, I say, the Mark Warner people they were around there, we, you know as I say we also at a very early stage we knew it was important that we got a picture of Madeleine just to show people, whether it be local, but, but we were also imploring the err the GNR to you know close down and circulate this picture, err and that was, you know that was something that Mark Warner team helped us set up just in the, you know the Tapas bit there.”
1485 "Yeah.”
01:04:57 Reply "Err then we were popping in and out of the apartment i am sure destroying forensic traces was a real priorty! err you know having conversations with Kate and Gerry and err you know they were in communication with people back home err you know Gerry was you know speaking to family, they were chatting to err Paul’s the priest who married them and Kate was chatting to her mum you know err and it was just all kicking off around really.”
1485 "You know when you went into their apartment, what was the scene like? I mean where was Kate and Gerry?”
Reply "Err (sighs) I mean with, with err, you know I, Kate’s obviously very good friends with err Fiona and I’m, you know, very good friends with Gerry so more likely I’d have probably been with Gerry going through the options of what happened, or you know where could she be and what, what’s gone on here. Err you know trying to work out err what had actually happened err so I, I, you know we all went up to the apartment pretty much together. I think, I don’t know what, whether the other people came in or not, I can only remember me, Fiona, Kate and Gerry predominantly and the err lady from Mark Warner err who were the main people who were in the apartment. Err yeah I certainly went into err the doorway of that, the room where all the children were staying you know and Sean and Amelie were still you know sleeping, err you know and this is something that’s, you know, we’ve all kind of discussed you know amongst all the melee that was kicking off they were just sleeping so, you know, contently. Err and then you know the other area, the other areas I remember going into Kate and Gerry’s err bedroom with Gerry and he’d perhaps you know fling a cupboard open and just have a look and, ah you know and just shut the door and you know in a vein, desperate hope that she might have been err you know in, in the wardrobe or something, and then he, you know flung him, flung himself on the floor and just you know kicking the floor and just with, you know, she’s gone, she’s gone, err and then as I say, I, I, after that I can’t really say exactly, you know. We kept meeting up at stages in the evening to, to try and appraise the situation and you know what shall we do, err.”
01:07:44 1485 "Did you hear Kate say to Gerry they’ve let her down?”
Reply "Err, it’s a comment that I’ve heard her say since and you know, I can’t say that I specifically heard her say it that night. Err but you know, so many emotions are flying through your mind at that stage and you know certainly guilt was going through you know their mind, err because it, you know, everyone was like questioning themselves, you know, about you know what had happened and you know I know that she certainly was, those comments that she made along the lines of guilt for err you know, you know not being there for her, without a doubt, but specifically that phrase I wouldn’t, you know I can’t recall her saying that but again, it’s just a general underlying you know nature of what she was saying but it was along the lines that she, you know she had let her down, that you know when she, err again whether it was that night or another night she said well you know when she needed us we weren’t there for her, you know and that was, you know the general kind of things that she was implying.”
Hi Viv
I am not sure what to make of Oprah she was abused and the posibility that Madeleine may have been abused must have occured to her...
The way this whole thing has been spun it is obvious soemthing is being covered up...
If Kate is scared she will never have a better chance than with Oprah if she asks for help she is a powerful lady and has helped many thousands of people...
Does any one know if Oprah ever interviewed the parents of Jon Bennet Ramsey??? Another little girl whoes parents acted in a very strange and unhelpful way when she was found Murdered...
Will anyone ever interview someone on behalf of Madeleine to show the other side to what the McCann's are trying to brainwash the world with. Surley a child is worth the truth and questions answered on her behalf even if her own Mother would not do it for her...
xxx
It would seem there is more television to come from Goncalo but I am struggling to see how he is behaving any differently to the McCanns. Why does he wait two years to tell us there is more to come, watch the programme!! Not very helpful really, is it? It is all based on his best selling book..
April 26, 2009
Madeleine McCann case - Gonçalo Amaral, and the search continues revelations
Maria - Print Edition
Madeleine in Praia da Luz
"Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A, and his body was hidden." With this safety conclusion Gonçalo Amaral's documentary "Maddie - The Truth of the Lie", broadcast by TVI, last April 13. The former coordinator of the media research of all times believed that the English girl, disappeared in Praia da Luz on May 3, 2007, was abducted as her parents have always defended well and said: "Maddie is there in Praia Luz! They walk around, for some reason. " Despite being part of the case in October 2007, Gonçalo Amaral is still investigating on his own and promises some revelations to make it short: I was talking with other retired officers from other parts of the world, and we thought a lot about the case. We have already collected lots of information and news will come out during the next few days. We have new tracks and very serious. ".
The production of Valentim de Carvalho Filmes, based on the book by Gonçalo Amaral released after his dismissal of the investigation, hearing was a success. More than two million viewers watched the documentary, broadcast on Channel Queluz, and is now the second most watched program of 2009. The former inspector of the Judicial Police and imagined that the program would be a success, although not so large. "We expected a big impact, because it is an issue that still moves people. They want to know the truth and want justice. Although not so much, "reveals Gonçalo Amaral, who has no doubt that, from the past 13 days, the Portuguese are more unclear what happened in the disappearance of Maddie. Meanwhile, according to former inspector, it seems that not everyone saw it with due care: "Mr. Attorney General of the Republic and should have realized that at this moment is at hand a very important document that proves that there was a kidnapping and you just have to reopen the process. "
Before the disappearance of the girl to the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club, 130 employees worked in the tourist establishment. The following summer, the number had dropped to 60 and at the end of last year, was reduced to 48. Now, only 27 people keep their jobs! The administration of the Ocean Club has been forced to "cut the staff and not hesitate in pointing to those responsible for these dismissals. In the dismissal letter, sent to 21 employees, one can read: "... It should result in a continuous sequence over the past two years, in which the company incurred heavy costs of reducing its activity as a result of the unfortunate incident Maddie McCann. "Employees of the Ocean Club share the opinion and added that "after the disappearance of the girl, there was a reduction of 40% of tourists. Before that, families receive. Even had a "fight" to get a lounger. Now, that's not happening. As a result of this decline in the number of customers, more than two dozen people, aged between 30 and 50 years and some of them after two decades of work for the company that received the notification of dismissal promised to try to join McCann.
Villagers want to forget Maddie
The tragedy in Praia da Luz in May 2007, not "overshadowed" the little people. A little bit around the town Algarvean, merchants complain of the lack of tourists and once again place the blame on the excessive media coverage of the case Maddie.
The truth is, two years after the disappearance of British girl, this paradise on the edge of the sea has not come back to normal. "We had a quiet life, and then by chance, this had to happen here," complains one of the inhabitants. The locals do not forget Maddie and even allow them to do so. Gerry's return to Praia da Luz, in the early months, is proof of that. While Kate was in England, allegedly for being physically and psychologically weakened, her husband returned to the scene of the crime but was not well received. At the door of the Ocean Club, and improperios rained insults against those who supported before. "Why did not come when I called the PJ? - Asks a trader. "What is this documentary? To further denigrate the image of Praia da Luz "- another question.
There is no doubt that the opinion of the people has changed a lot about the innocence of the McCann. Besides having made it clear that marriage is not well received, even welcomed the latest campaign by the British. A few weeks ago, ten thousand leaflets were distributed through the mailboxes and dozens of posters with the faces of Maddie were placed. Meanwhile, Mary did not find one! "They were all torn away," says a resident. Just out of Praia da Luz, we can find a billboard, where the girl's face is covered with white paint, like the number for further information. It is a sign that the villagers no longer endure the media circus created by McCann.
Chronology of a controversial case
2007
May 3: Madeleine McCann disappears from the room where she slept with her two twin brothers in an apartment in the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Parents cenaban with a group of friends in the resort's restaurant, about 50 meters from the apartment.
May 5: The head of the Judiciary Police (PJ) from Faro, Guilhermino Encarnaçao, says that all evidence points to a crime of abduction, there is already a sketch of the suspect.
May 14: Murat is heard over 14 hours in the Criminal Investigation Department (DID) of the PJ in Portimão, becomes the first argued in the process.
July 31: The PJ, members of the British police and two dogs trained to detect traces of blood and body odor to inspect the apartment 5A and find new leads.
August 11: For the first time, the PJ admits that Madeleine may be dead.
September 6: Kate McCann was questioned in the PJ of Portimão, over 11 hours.
September 7: Marriage McCann is in the ear and consists of Portimão DIC argued.
September 9: Kate and Gerry returned to England.
October 2: Gonçalo Amaral, coordinator of the "Maddie case" from day one, is removed from the investigation.
October 8: Paulo Rebelo is advertised as a substitute for Gonçalo Amaral at the forefront of research.
2008
March 19: The PJ returned the property to Robert Murat.
April 13: Robert Murat defamation seeks compensation for a number of British media.
July 21: The Attorney General's Office said the file of the process have produced evidence of the commission of any crime.
July 24: Gonçalo Amaral published the book "The Truth of the Lie," which reveals his theory on the disappearance of Maddie.
2009
March 25: Ten thousand pamphlets and dozens of posters with the faces of Maddie were distributed and pasted in Praia da Luz, in an attempt not to forget the memory of the disappearance of British girl.
April 4: Gerry McCann returns to Praia da Luz to record a documentary about what happened on May 3, 2007.
April 12: The inspector Ana Paula replaces Paulo Rebelo Rite in the coordination of DIC in Portimão.
April 13: TVI rebroadcast the documentary based on the book by Gonçalo Amaral, where the ex-inspector of the PJ argues that Maddie is dead.
Traducción de Mercedes
Hiya HOpe
In relation to sexual abuse of children, Oprah is clearly something of an expert. I do not think we can overlook this. We have hoped that somneone perhaps Kate's mum would get close to her and show her the way. Maybe that is what Oprah intends to do?
The impression we have been given so far is that Oprah has a lot of empathy with Kate. If what I believe is true that would be entirely understandable.
Of course Oprah may just recognise this as a great story, we will have to wait and see. But developments could prove very interesting. Too late will it occur to Gerry he has been had and once again forced to realise he is nowhere near as good at conning as he likes to think!
xx
Hi Viv
If Oprah is only looking at this as a huge TV op it really does not do her any favours with all the good work she does why is Madeleine less important than the other children she fights for?
As for GA with more revelations he thinks Madeleine is dead so behaving like the McCann's making people wait will just build intrest and more people will watch... However if Gerry and Kate are serious and Madeleine is still alive and in danger there is not a reason in the world to wait every day should count as a good day to search and promote new ideas...
GA if he is right and she is dead has all the time in the world as nothing would bring her back...
xxx
Hiya Hope
I find it hard to believe that Oprah is such a fool she is just going to believe Gerry McCann of all people or fail to understand how much harm she could do to her own reputation by befriending him.
As you say, if the McCanns believe Madeleine is alive there is absolutely no reason to wait for TV shows and anniversary events to start looking for her, every single day would count. It is contrived and it is sickening.
There is no evidence to back Goncalo's theory of what happened to Madeleine, it just does not make sense. It really cannot make sense to use the timelines of such obvious liars! To me it is just another show and real justice is not done via TV, films, books etc. That is also the way of Kate and Gerry McCann. I do not feel he was removed from the investigation without very good reason and cannot overlook all the media leaks stopped upon his removal. By playing the same game as Kate and Gerry he does himself no favours IMO.
I believe Amaral's point of view that Madeleine passed away and is in PDL. I feel that time will show this couple to have got deeper and deeper into this fake story and that it has been a charade from the start. I hope I am wrong but the majority of issues point that way from my standpoint. I also stick to my line that when this odious UK government gets pushed aside there will be more room to manouevre the truth into the public domain.
hiya BT
Sadly if Maddie did pass away in PDL we are going to need much, much better evidence of that before there could be any prosecution. I certainly agree the McCanns have gotten deeper and deeper into a fake story and it has always been a charade. You only have to look at the words of David Payne alone (above) to see that. The Key is just how was he and OB so closely involved and why would Jane Tanner tell a complete pack of lies? Why would Mat Oldfield join in also? There is something deeply sinister about this group of people and I am certain Gerry and probably Payne also planned for this to happen. I just do not know about Kate but have the feeling it is most certainly not what she wanted to happen but she is fearful of landing up in jail for taking part in a coverup rather than face the reality of just how terrible this really is, and what she allowed to happen to her little girl.
The government may well be odious but I see no reason to say they are involved in any sort of coverup. It would clearly be in Brown's interest to make sure these people are brought to justice. In the cold light of day are the tories really any better? My memory is long enough to say most certainly not! Whitehall is one big gravy train and they all piss in the same pot.
To my way of thinking Kate would most certainly feel she has let Maddie down as alluded to by Payne and he knows exactly why. Him and his great friend Gerry. But I do not think they are great friends any longer.
Payne just does not answer the question here does he, he starts talking about Fiona and Kate and him and Gerry as two separate entities. This is what I mean, they very clearly are. The child abusers and the wives who are married to these animals.
1485 "You know when you went into their apartment, what was the scene like? I mean where was Kate and Gerry?”
Reply "Err (sighs) I mean with, with err, you know I, Kate’s obviously very good friends with err Fiona and I’m, you know, very good friends with Gerry so more likely I’d have probably been with Gerry going through the options of what happened, or you know where could she be and what, what’s gone on here. Err you know trying to work out err what had actually happened err so I
Oprah Winfrey’s success is her empathy and sincere interest in people and their behaviour. A natural gift and something that is difficult to obtain if not innate. She has the knack of making the interviewee believe that the only reason she bothered to get out of bed that day was because she wanted to talk to them – they are very important to her and the focus of her world – that day anyway.
I’ve seen her interview some tricky people OJ and Michael Jackson both in different ways had evidence stacked against them. What she believes in her heart and her interview techniques never met, she remains empathetic and professional throughout. Because of this approach she ekes out more information than most but more importantly for her production company she gets plumb interview opportunities where others fail.
Imo the McCann interview is nothing more than an opportunity to talk to two controversial figures that are likely to be guilty of concealing the death of their daughter and staging an abduction. This really is an irresistible combination and could be likened to OJ saying he did not kill his wife and her lover – at that time everyone knew he did but the prosecution failed to prove it. Everyone that interviewed him knew the score, as he did himself, but the interview tweaked the premise to innocent.
OJ, like the McCanns, had a lot of interest from the media focused on them. I do not remember too much concern by Oprah, or anyone else for that matter, about the two people he murdered and in a way this is what we see with Madeleine. The little girl gets forgotten as an individual and is only thought of as a minor player as the drama presented by her parents unfurls – the fictitious abduction.
Everyone has an alternative agenda to the one they present to the public and Amaral, Oprah and the rest of the media pack are no exception to this.
Knowing the above why do I feel disappointment with the Oprah show - I never expected any different really. I suppose it’s just human nature to be optimistic and to believe the best of people against all the odds. I suppose that means I am likely to be perpetually disappointment but now and again against all the odds the tables turn. Let’s hope this will happen in this case.
What I forgot to mention in my previous post is most people who follow this case believe in the McCanns guilt this is what draws people to it and makes it irresistible for media comment. Everyone knows the score but plays the game.
Morning Viv,
You say:-
“Sometimes it is hard to make sense of all of this. But maybe we should remember one thing, neither the Portuguese or British Police or the Home Office have ever publicly supported the McCanns or suggested they are innocent. If our Agencies in UK actually felt the McCanns were innocent I believe they would have said so.”
Thank you for highlighting this fact as I think in all the other information we are fed we tend to forget this.
I know its not pc to highlight speech impediments but……. I can’t resist copying Big L’s insights into the McCanns Oprah performance. If you haven’t read this it is well worth a look. LOL
Jonathon.
"good evening wadies and gentlemen,
tonight we honour the gwait and the good of our actwesses and actors.
as you know some have came and gone but some are on ours scweens endwesly"
the first award for a police dwama goes to Kate McCann for her sterling performance in "the 48 qwestions"
sadly kwate can’t be here as she’s looking for her dauwter on the opwah show
tv clip
next award for most heartfelt performance in the bill goes to well well well kwate McCann for her tearful rendition on the 3rd of may in the bills "a swarthy abductor stole my maddie"
tv clip
the award for most pwomising newcomer goes to ...Clarence Mitchell for his performance in Agatha Cristies dial M for murder and his columbo impression at the launch of "swarthy man goes incognito".
tv clip
the award for newest male actor goes to Gerry McCann for his part in jackanory an abductors revenge "which window did the abductor go through? the round one, the arched one or the square one?"
the next award , which was the most difficult for the judges goes to Jane tanner for her part in "tales of the unexpected"
tv clip
a new award in the memory of the great Benny hill goes to, not one but 9 folks .yes its the tapas 9 for the cutting edge programme "Benny hill does pdl in a canter"
tv clip
best director for his tv film "you cannot be f_cking serious" a docu/drama of the night maddie was taken goes to Gerry McCann WHO unfortunately cannot be here as he’s holding kwates hand on opwah no, no he really is holding kwates hand weally weally tightly
tv clip
the baftas have tonight decided on a special award for someone who we took too our hearts from the minute we saw him when he was showcased to the world .
sadly we don’t know his where abouts wight now but the judges are determined that his part should not be forgotten and I myself will receive it for him.
CUDDLECAT!!!!CUDDLECAT YOU WILL NOT BE FOWGOTTEN!!!!!!!
27 April 2009
Suspicions about Payne were never investigated
Reconstitution that was requested by the PJ could have clarified doubts
by Tânia Laranjo
The suspicions against medic David Payne, one of the McCanns’ English friends, who was in Praia da Luz on the 3rd of May 2007, when Madeleine disappeared, were never investigated. Meanwhile, the doctor moved house and doesn’t live in the same London area anymore. He was expected to return to Praia da Luz over the last few days, to record the documentary that is being prepared in England, but he ended up cancelling the trip. It is unknown if an actor will play his part in the reconstitution that is promoted by Kate and Gerry.
“On the day that Madeleine disappeared, his behaviour was very strange. He tried to sit in during the interrogations of Kate and Gerry, and he seemed very upset”, a member of staff at the Ocean Club who assisted the searches during the first few hours told CM.
David Payne was cited in the process twice, as having strange behaviour towards children. The first case took place in the initial hours that followed the child’s disappearance, when a social services worker from England, who happened to be on holidays in Lagos, stated that she recognised Payne from a situation that she had investigated and which was related to child neglect or sexual abuse.
Later, an English couple told the police that a year before they had been on holidays with the McCanns and with the Payne couple, and that back then, the doctor had had a conversation with Gerry, which they witnessed, that indicated child abuse.
Payne used to bathe the children and since that day, that English couple, both doctors as well, prevented him from getting close to their daughter.
Payne wasn’t questioned by the police because he returned to England in the meantime.
The McCann couple then refused to take part in the reconstitution of the night when Maddie disappeared, thus making it impossible for the suspicions against Payne to be proved or dismissed. At that time, Gerry and Kate were already arguidos over the concealment of the cadaver and neglect towards their children.
source: Correio da Manhã, 27.04.2009
by astro
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/
Hi Wizard
That is an interesting article. So the reports of David Payne flying out to PDL to help with the reconstruction were incorrect, he actually cancelled. Now why would he cancel it only makes things look worse for him. It would be interesting to know if he was ever going in the first place. Perhaps he is slowly being set up to take the blame.
Hello ALL
If someone accused my Husband of being a Peadophile I would be demanding an investigation and would be taking my own children to the hospital myself to have them checked over. I would also ask for a profesional to speak to them both to see if they had any worries...
I would do this for two reasons
1) I love my children more than life itself and although I am certain my husband would never harm them or be intrested in children sadly otheres have been fooled.
2) I love my Husband with all my Heart and if someone was spreading rumours about him that were not true I would want the police to set the record straight and clear his name if he had nothing to hide...
Silence from Fiona and David Payne it has been brushed aside as if it is not important...
Stranger still silence from Gerry and Kate McCann who should be asking the police to investigate David Payne based on the evidence from friends who were on holiday with them (Gerry was obviously being thick and did not understand what Payne was doing)...
Madeleine is missing so why are they not questioning their friends???
hello guys
Only just tuned into the net today and was going to post Correia article about David Payne but see I was beaten to it:-)))
I am simply ecstatic about this and feel the McCanns/David Payne will be under so much pressure now the truth will finally start to come out.
The timing of the article in Correia could not have been worse for the McCanns and it just serves them right. It is nothing new to us but probably is new to many people who have never studied this case.
I believe it is the answer to the Maddie case and talk of her dying by accident in the apt will fade away now. This was no accident!
JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AS THE TRUTH FINALLY STARTS TO COME OUT
There does seem to be a mistake in Correia in saying that Payne has now moved his London address. The McCanns have recently been quoted as having a London address. The only person who actually does have one is Mat, did they all go and live with him in his one million pound pad in Kingston!
I know Payne moved to work at a Derby hospital in April 2008 just a week before the rogatories, I* am sure the heat was getting to him and he also needed to get away from Gerry. But we do not know whether he has actually moved from living in Leicester.
I am waiting to see how Amaral explains this and links it to his death in the apt theory by accident around 9.15. I think that may have been the time Kate actually found Maddie missing and I do not think Kate had much to do with this either. The Carpenters report someone calling Madeleine Madeleine around 9.30 I believe this may have been Kate and she would hardly be doing that if she knew right then what had happened to her.
I still believe Maddie may be alive and Kate hopes she can be found.
Hi All,
Over the weekend I saw ’The State of Play’ with Russell Crowe, Helen Mirren and Ben Affleck. Very good and well worth seeing.
Briefly it’s about a team of investigative reporters work to solve the murder of a congressman’s mistress with the help Russell Crowe (journalist) et al.
I just wonder if this type of investigative journalism is just fiction or there is some truth behind it. If the McCann case had someone with the dogged determination of Crowe to get to the bottom of things and the b#lls of Mirren the newspaper editor to publish - this case could well be cracked.
Ah well I can dream!
Viv
If you are right it would be wonderful that Madeleine is alive but I cant belive Kate would have acted as she has if she belives this...
Even if she has been told to shut the hell up and Madeleine will come back she has had plenty of oportunities to ask for help quietly...
If she was removed to hide something the Twins are in danger Oprah has the power and money to help Kate if she is not asked for help from Kate I fear it is the last chance she will have to do something for Madeleine...
I know it has been said in the past that Kate is never alone with the twins is she never alone at all????
2 years is long enough to know she is not going to get her child back by staying quiet...
????
hiya Wiz
I think crime journalists in UK frequently acknowledge they know far more about a criminal case than the law allows them to publish. I believe this is the situation with the Daily Express, Evening Standard, and crime journalists the both the Sun and The Mirror etc but they are just not able to publish what they know.
But once there has been a trial I think we will find a press bonanza on this case the likes of which we have never seen before. But it is a difficult situation if Madeleine is alive and has been sexually abused as to how the press will deal with that aspect. It is a bit like Shannon Matthews, I think it is highly likely she was sexuall abused, but as she is a living child the press still cannot report about that to protect her which is perfectly understandable. Imagine growing up and reading all about how you were abused in the papers, that just cannot be allowed to happen. Of course if Madeleine is alive, when she is an adult there would be nothing stopping her publically commenting then if she actually wanted to and I can imagine she would be very bitter about her own parents!
Hiya Hope
It is in fact a classic sign of abused by a male partner that he will not allow his partner to ever be on her own and will seek to isolate her from friends and family. I think this is probably the reality with Kate and Gerry. Much as Kate's mom would probably like to get involved to help Kate, Gerry makes sure that Kate is supervised by his own sisters, not her mother.
I think Oprah has the potential to be an extremely powerful threat to Gerry and I await with interest just how this is going to develop. Kate would have a very strong hand there to help her, if she decides to take it, I believe.
xx
Lying contradictory stories, reported her abducted four or five hours after death, this is all sound a little familiar. Poor nan and grandad how heartbroken they must be, lost their daughter and their granddaughter! And what a shocking thing to face about what your own child did. Just awful. A great reminded by this poster about what Oprah Winfrey is really interested in, same as she suffered herself, childhood sexual abuse. Watch out Gerry this lady will eat you alive!
Mother allegedly suffocated child hours before reporting her missing
April 27, 2009
An Antelope Valley mother who claimed that an attacker knocked her out and abducted her 18-month-old daughter had allegedly suffocated the girl hours earlier and dumped her body in Sylmar, homicide detectives said today.
Stacey Barker, 24, was charged with one count each of murder, assault on a child causing death, and child abuse in the death of Emma Leigh Barker, authorities said.
“At this point, as best as we can determine, the infant died through suffocation at hands of the mother,” said Sheriff's Lt. Pat Nelson. “After her third or fourth version of events, we knew she wasn’t telling the truth, and we able to determine what happened. At this point, we believe she acted alone.”
Detectives arrested Barker last Thursday because of“ indications she might flee or disappear,” Nelson said. Barker had been staying with relatives since the March 18 disappearance of her daughter and discovery of the child’s body in deep brush along a fence.
Detectives believe that the girl was already dead of suffocation four or five hours before Stacey Barker reached out to authorities to report the child missing.
“Our belief is the child died in the early evening of March 18,” Nelson said.
Barker initially told detectives that she was at a Lancaster park near the 14 Freeway and had just placed Emma in her car seat when she was struck from behind by an unknown assailant. She told them she awoke about 10:30 p.m., five hours later at a Palmdale park-and-ride lot several miles away, and that her daughter was missing.
But the next day, Barker recanted the tale of assault and abduction that had launched a massive manhunt, Nelson said. She eventually helped sheriff's detectives find the girl's body and told them her daughter had died in an accident. Detectives then discovered the toddler's body by the side of a road in Sylmar, near Interstate 5.
Prosecutors allege Barker willfully caused and permitted her daughter to be harmed and that the injury resulted in death. Barker, of Quartz Hill, was arrested last week at her grandparents' home in Lancaster and was being held in lieu of $1-million bail.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... ssing.html
_________________
Oprah Winfrey says it is critical that society acknowledges the affects of sexual abuse by child molesters—regardless of gender.
Age of secrecy ends as family courts are opened to media scrutiny
From The Times
April 28, 2009
Frances Gibb, Legal Editor
Times reporters at family courts: Central London | Bath | Haringey | Cardiff | Manchester
A disturbing case in which a local authority failed to act to take a child into care was able to be revealed yesterday, after the groundbreaking decision to admit the media into the family courts came into effect.
The case, set against a background of alleged sex abuse, revealed how a family had managed to slip through the net of three London councils because they kept moving home and were not known to the social services.
The details are typical of the kind that would have remained unknown but for the opening of such hearings after decades of decisions being taken behind closed doors.
The historic opening up of the courts was taken by Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, after sustained pressure from families affected by the courts’ decisions and the media, led by The Times.
Under the reforms more than 200,000 hearings involving sensitive and traumatic cases, and with decisions that will have a huge impact on the lives of children and their families, will now be open to media scrutiny.
However, there is still confusion in the courts as to how this reform should operate, although The Times was admitted to most hearings at the six court centres it attended yesterday.
Strict reporting restrictions remain in force, which many — including judges — fear will undermine the reform and dilute its impact. There is also no automatic access to papers that have been laid before the court as evidence.
No identification of parties can take place and there was a mixed message over whether local authorities, often the butt of criticism in care cases, can be named.
The Times attended the above case, at the Barnet Civil and Family Court Centre, in which a council wants to remove a four-year-old child and baby into care.
Judge Marcia Levy revealed in her judgment that a social worker, or “guardian”, had criticised a London council for failing to remove the elder boy three years go.
The case highlights the difficult balancing exercise tackled by the courts, as Judge Levy unravelled the complex family circumstances of the young mother, who was the stepdaughter of a man who became the father of her children.
The council says that without its “intervention” — that is, removal of the children — the children are at significant and continuing risk of harm. The judge decided on the balance of probabilities that the council was right.
In the end, whether the mother can keep her children will depend on whether she can convince the court that she can break off all relations with the father, despite trying and failing to do so, and admitting that she still loves him.
In a fact-finding ruling, Judge Levy held that the children were at risk of suffering harm from the mother’s association with the father. It will be several months, however, before a final hearing to decide if the mother is able to cut off relations from the father, and so keep her children.
It was, lawyers said, an everyday case in the family courts.
Our reporter at Manchester Civil Justice Centre found the detailed case “impenetrable”, with the parties all well aware of the case’s complex history, which was laid out in copious papers before the court. The Times was told that it would have to make oral submissions to see the papers and that a decision would, in all likelihood, be taken by a higher court.
Across the country at courts attended by The Times the low-key tone of the proceedings everywhere belied their nature.
In Bath, the court list said simply: “A minor.” At the heart of the case was the grandmother’s belief that her daughter is not a fit parent. She wants the boy, now living with her, to stay there permanently.
There, the move towards openness was welcomed. Elsewhere, however, lawyers were less enthusiastic: ironically it was in one care case before magistrates in London — hearings that are already open to the media — that a lawyer sought to have The Times removed.
The reforms extend to divorce hearings but at the Principal Registry of the Family Division in London, 11 out of 66 hearings were already marked “not open to the media”. These are likely to involve adoption proceedings, which are not covered by the reform.
The Times gained access to a hearing involving a celebrity trying to gain sole custody of his child. But the presence of the media led to the judge, Vera Mayer, to transfer it to the High Court, to establish what, if anything, could be reported.
Echoing the views of judges and lawyers generally, she said: “I think this is a new field and none of us has any proper guidelines. It has come at a speed that none of us anticipated.”
Mr Straw said yesterday that he wanted to ensure “a change in the culture and practice of all courts towards greater openness” and that the reform was an “important step towards that goal”.
He plans to revise the law on reporting restrictions, but there is no imminent slot to introduce such legislation.
Meanwhile, however, parties in the cases are now freer to disclose information to others, including MPs, to seek help and advice, he said.
He also confirmed that he would not reverse a Court of Appeal ruling, that had previously been indicated, so as to stop parents talking about their case after it is over; and announced a pilot project to put some anonymised judgments on line, to give parties the judgment at the end of the case and look at the practicalites of retaining judgments so that children involved can see them when they are older.
DOING AWAY WITH DISCREPANCIES: THE CHANGES
Accredited media (holders of a United Kingdom press card) may be admitted to family courts that were formally closed until now — county courts and High Courts — removing the discrepancy with the already open magistrates’ courts and Court of Appeal
No bloggers, occasional newsletter writers or foreign media not based in the UK will be given such access
All existing court-reporting restrictions apply, protecting the anonymity of children and preventing mention of names, places and possibly also local authorities where that would identify children
No automatic right to evidence or documents relied on in court
No admittance to adoption proceedings or hearings held for “judicially-assisted conciliation and negotiations”
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 182314.ece
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Oprah Winfrey says it is critical that society acknowledges the affects of sexual abuse by child molesters—regardless of gender.
http://to-catch-a-female-predator.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/FemalePredatorsExist
http://www.oprah.com/slideshow/oprahsho ... 0060427/13
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viv
Post subject: Re: Age of secrecy ends: Family courts now open to the media
New postPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:31 am
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Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:58 pm
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Thanks for this important step forward in educating the public about what is really going on in serious family law cases. I am pleased to note that children will still be protected by anonymising the cases. It is not the names people need to know it is the extent of just how much children are suffering in the UK. So many people, including on this forum, have said they just do not want to hear about child abuse including sexual abuse. So long as we have that attitude the public will remain in ignorance of the risks that all children face day in day out from abusive adults. By putting some details in the press people will learn far more about the problems and how they can recognise when their own children may be at risk and how they can better protect them. No matter which member of a family or that family's circle of friends is abusing a child other family members should have the knowledge to be able to pick up on the telltale signs of this so that they can understand what may be wrong with a child who just does not speak out about what is happening to them.
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Use your own thoughts and feelings to consider the truth, then you may avoid the lie. Sometimes we may not know the whole truth, there is no dishonour in admitting that.
The UK likes to think they are against paedophilia, but look at
A) Gary Glitter
b) Tam Patom (Bay City Rollers) - Raped 2 band members (when they were 17),, had a very "suspect" relationship with young boys, dealt drugs...left all his money to cats and dogs and a children's hospice :-
!!!!!!!! (lets hope the hospice does not accept it)
c) Thomas Hamilton (Dunblane)
d) My old swimming teacher in Edinburgh...who was jailed for sexual abuse on children about 10 yeasr ago.....I was 10 when it happened, am 42 now
e) The politicians who were implicated and resulted in the "D" notice a few years ago.
I consider myself of sound mind, rational, and open .... I know of at least 3 experiences in my childhood when I was, "taken advantage of" by an adult.
I am from a middles class Scottish family...paedophilia is rife..
always has been...always will be, unless we stand up and say, " Na, this is wrong....get some help, and do not come back to our communities until you know you that what you thought/did was not acceptable for our society.
Gerry, Kate, David etc... No matter what your twisted way of thinking is....do not expect to be accepted by the majority of good, decent, caring, and concerned parent's in this country.
Sue me I aint got nowt.....
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viv
Post subject: Re: David Payne? (merged topics)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:59 pm
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Posts: 1993
Jack thanks for your honest post.
I think if most of us were frank we could not say that we had never encountered paedophilia as a child, I did on three occasions I can clearly remember.
My uncle coming to my bedroom when I was 12, there was an adult party going on downstairs. My pants were drying on the radiator. He was slobbering and kissing me and saying oh are those your pants they are pretty. I knew his behaviour was not right and was repulsed and yet I did not go downstairs and fetch my father. That is just how children react. This was my father's older brother!
Being in a wild park when about 10 with two younger children and being called over by a fisherman who proceeded to show us dirty books rubbing his hand on the relevant bit and making filthy comments he then tried to slide his hand up my skirt at which point I screamed to the two girls I was with run, run and he followed us but could not keep up.
Swimming in Sutton Park with my sister when very young and a man lying in the bushes with it hanging out, something my sister and I had never seen before.
Luckily I never got seriously abused but clearly could have been. I wonder just how many people on this board can tell similar stories from their childhood? I bet it would be an awful lot!
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ratonthebeam
Post subject: Re: David Payne? (merged topics)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:03 pm
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Spot on, Jack and Viv - you are both absolutely right! =D>
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Schnuffel
Post subject: Re: David Payne? (merged topics)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:36 pm
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ratonthebeam wrote:
Spot on, Jack and Viv - you are both absolutely right! =D>
Do you mind if take this opportunity to add my support too? ;;)
=D> =D> =D>
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Oprah Winfrey says it is critical that society acknowledges the affects of sexual abuse by child molesters—regardless of gender.
http://to-catch-a-female-predator.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/FemalePredatorsExist
http://www.oprah.com/slideshow/oprahsho ... 0060427/13
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abuela
Post subject: Re: David Payne? (merged topics)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:49 pm
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Me too. You know, things happen and you don't really give it another thought until you read things like this. I can remember I was about 11 or 12 and always at my friends house. Her neighbour, a married man with a whole brood of young children, used to pass us notes saying what he'd like to do to us, disgusting, filthy things. We just decided that he was an old perv and to ignore him in future. We briefly thought about telling my friend's Mum, but decided not to. Obviously we should have done, but were 11, didn't realise the full implication of what he was suggesting. There are a lot of nasty people out there.
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viv
Post subject: Re: David Payne? (merged topics)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:07 pm
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Hi Abuela, thanks for also sharing that with us which sounds pretty typical.
You also reacted just as I did. It is weird but it is like children feel ashamed and responsible, I think they do not say anything because they feel they will cause trouble or be in trouble.
My father is dead and never got to hear what his brother was like and I have never told my mother either who was not there because my mum and dad had split up and I was staying at my father's younger brother's house, he was fine!
But the incident in the park, I was with two twin girls aged about 9. We came back to my house and stood around the side sort of hiding by the shed. My dad came around to me and said what is the matter. I said nothing dad but he persisted and so I told him but recall I found it difficult to do so. He obviously just sensed there was something wrong. I gave the police a very good description of him and it is strange but forty four years later I can still clearly visualise that man with his horrible mac and dirty little yellow teeth. I can still see that water stained little magazine he had full of very bad shots of women which you would not have thought go produced back in the 60s! The police did not manage to locate him.
_________________
Use your own thoughts and feelings to consider the truth, then you may avoid the lie. Sometimes we may not know the whole truth, there is no dishonour in admitting that.
see new link top right to a site that lists anonymised family law cases you can read. Any appeal that reaches either the Court of Appeal or higher still The House of Lords is available anyway on the internet in anonymised form but of course full legal judgments are more complex than what a newspaper would report.
http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=fo30787
The Shining Light of the Media
On the day that media access to family courts is introduced, Chris McWatter of 5 KBW surveys the views of campaigners and the legal profession on the impact these reforms will have on family justice.
image of Chris McWatters barrister 5KBW
Chris McWatters, 5KBW
Today sees the opening up of family courts to the media as a result of new legislation. From now on, according to the amended Family Proceedings Rules, “accredited representatives of news-gathering and reporting organizations” will be allowed inside all family proceedings courts, whether divorce or private or public children law.
The reform follows three years of government consultations, which aimed to increase public confidence in the family justice system by making it more transparent. Separately, campaigners outside the government process have also been active in promoting change.
The campaigners have been trying to eradicate what they call the secretiveness of the family courts. Camilla Cavendish of The Times, who recently won a Campaign of the Year prize at the British Press Awards for her work on opening up the courts, talks of the “need to shed light in dark corners.” Her idea, and that of Lib Dem MP John Hemming, is that, with the media present and reporting restrictions lifted, miscarriages of justice will be less likely to occur.
All this made the legal establishment deeply anxious. Lawyers who work in the family courts worried that vulnerable children would be exposed to the press, that sensation-hungry journalists would throng to divorce cases, that witnesses would be less willing to come forward if they fear their statements will be publicly reported, and that there would be long delays in cases while judges worked out how much to handle the press.
However, the reforms in their final form have gone much less far than campaigners had hoped. The media will be allowed into court. But they will not be allowed to name or identify anyone in the case, unless they apply for and receive specific permission from the judge. They will not be allowed to report the detail of the case. In these circumstances, it will not be easy to get a press story out of a visit to a family court.
The campaigners are bitterly disappointed that the courts “will not be as open as we had expected”. Cavendish wrote that she had been expecting “publication to be routine unless expressly forbidden by the judge”.
The legal profession, at the same time, is permitting itself a small sigh of relief for now.
According to leading family practitioner Stephen Cobb QC, there are strong reasons for restraining a free-for-all on reporting cases. The first is that the children themselves do not want it. “I think it shouldn’t be forgotten that, when these proposals were first up for consultation, there was a very strong body of opinion expressed by children, and those represented children’s interests that it wouldn’t be right,” he said. He was quoting research conducted under the auspices of Lord Falconer in 2006. This view is endorsed by Piers Pressdee and Caroline Little, co-chairs of the Association of Lawyers for Children, who state that “children involved in painful proceedings in family courts… have made it abundantly clear to government that they do not want people unconnected with their family in court listening to details of the failures of their parents and its impact on their lives.”
Another key concern for Cobb is the potential effect open reporting might have on witnesses giving evidence. “There’s a risk they will clam up, because they don’t want the trouble that reporting what they’ve said in court may bring them”.
Some witnesses already need persuading to give evidence to a court about trauma, abuse or violence within their family. Take the hypothetical case of a woman who is reluctant to reveal to the court the name of the father of her child, for fear the man’s partner might become physically violent with her. In a media-free court, she might be promised privacy for the revelation. But with reporters in the room, her fear that word might get out would be more likely to tip the balance against her speaking.
If this, in the view of many lawyers, might constitute at least a limitation on justice, campaigners Cavendish and Hemming see the danger of miscarriages of justice as coming from an entirely different direction.
What they are particularly concerned about is that – under the rules coming into force today - parties involved in family proceedings are still gagged from speaking openly to the press about what they perceive to be miscarriages of justice.
“You shouldn’t have to prove that there’s been a miscarriage of justice before you’re allowed to talk about it,” says Hemming. He says he knows of teenage children who are the subject of proceedings - who are keen to talk publicly, but cannot. “That cannot be right,” he insists.
Cavendish, likewise, says she has been approached by several parents who want to speak out about their experiences to reporters. “They are convinced that expert witnesses and/or local authorities have been able to distort the case against them because hearings are behind closed doors,” she says.
Family barrister Cobb, however, disagrees with the whole notion of volunteering for trial by media.
“If the rules were so relaxed to allow disaffected parents to speak freely to the press about what they may perceive to be miscarriages of justice, actually all they will really do is expose unfairly and improperly the plight of their own children.” He adds: “if parents talk to the press, the press are going to get a very partisan view of what has actually happened, and if that is percolated to the public….they are going to get a distorted picture. And that’s not helpful.”
Cobb points out that, if a parent believes a miscarriage of justice has taken place, then a more constructive starting-point would be to appeal rather than speaking to the press. “Of course, if the miscarriage of justice is confirmed on appeal, one would expect that the court of appeal would be reasonably well-disposed to a relaxing of the reporting restrictions to allow the parent greater freedom to speak” says Cobb.
Today’s new rules also gives parents much wider scope for disclosing information from proceedings to specific third parties, such as MPs. They in turn have greater scope for onward transmission of that same information. “So an aggrieved party is able to enlist the support of others with ‘influence’ to address the alleged miscarriage of justice”, says Cobb. In his view, this already constitutes a second way forward outside the court process itself that might prove more useful than going to the press.
If the aggrieved parties do feel under a compulsion to ‘speak out’ to the press rather than engage in an appeal process, they, or journalists who have adopted their cause, can now apply to the court for the reporting restrictions to be lifted to enable a party to talk to the press.
For Hemming, such an application would be futile – as a judge and the lawyers who had let a miscarriage of justice through would be unlikely to agree to it being publicised in the press. “If it is the practitioners who have let everyone down, including the judges, they are not the right people who should decide whether or not there should be a lifting of the reporting restrictions,” he says.
However Cobb points out that in this situation, the parents could always ask the judge to recuse himself from hearing the ‘reporting’ application. If the Judge declined, the parents might very well have an Article 6 argument that they had not been given a fair hearing under human rights legislation.
Cavendish believes that journalists, faced with having to apply to remove reporting restrictions, may very well not bother entering family courts at all. Cavendish had anticipated that the reforms would have maintained anonymity of the parties while still enabling journalists to report on the detail of a case.
Cobb, however, points out that keeping parties anonymous, or changing their names, would not stop them from being identified. This is due to the possibility of ‘jigsaw identification’, where seemingly innocuous pieces of information can come together to form a picture. Robert Thompson and Jon Venables, the 10-year-old killers of James Bulger, in 1993, were initially known in court as Child A and Child B in the hope of preserving their anonymity. Yet, fifteen years later, even their post-imprisonment second identities are at risk of being uncovered by the press.
Preserving anonymity would be particularly problematical in the local press, Cobb believes. “You’ll get the local press attending the local courts to look and see if there’s anything of interest going on there, and if they report in the local papers, the risk of jigsaw identification is that much greater, because the local communities will be that much more able to put together the pieces that make the picture,” he says.
However the current reporting restrictions are so strict that there is no chance of putting out even the first piece of the jigsaw that could lead to identification.
Leading divorce lawyer Mark Harper, writing in the Times last week, said he was concerned about the new rules allowing parties to have consultations with third parties who are in turn allowed their own consultations with other third parties. He believes that this relaxation of the rules will inevitably lead to information leaks in divorce cases, particularly those involving celebrities.
The change, he says, amounts to a blackmailer’s charter. As he put it: “Divorcing spouses who believe that they have sensitive information in their possession will use it to extort the maximum financial settlement, on the threat that otherwise all may be revealed to the media in court. … What benefit is there in knowing if a captain of industry enjoys wearing women’s underwear or a leading sportswoman enjoys lesbian sex? … What may be of interest to the public is not necessarily of public interest.”
Cobb is hopeful that this will not be the case in care proceedings. However he is worried that, unlike in criminal proceedings, where a reporter can follow the entire narrative of evidence, thereby gaining a complete picture, reporters will only get a partial picture of what goes on in a family case. This is because most of the evidence is contained in documents, and the only evidence that comes to light is what is challenged through cross-examination. Yet the press will not get automatic access to documents, unless given specific authorisation. Even if they do gain access, reporters will hardly have time to digest three lever-arch files for the sake of a story they will have to have written by 3pm. If journalists are to have any documentation from the case at all, Cobb would not be against making case summaries available to them. “Perhaps it will become common practice that advocates prepare case summaries in a way that they are user-friendly to the media”, says Cobb.
Cobb also believes that legal arguments over media access will lead to inevitable further delay in family proceedings. Delay is already the scourge of family courts, is expensive, and is bad for any children involved. “Is it really going to be helpful for cases to get off to a false start to have these kind of arguments?” he asks.
However, the changes introduced today are unlikley to be the end of the reforms. Jack Straw, the Secretary of State for Justice, stated this morning on the Today Programme that he hopes to bring reporting restrictions in family proceedings in line with youth court criminal proceedings. This would still mean that parties names would remain anonymous, but certain other identifying features could be reported, such as names of experts. For Caroline Little this is a worrying development,
"Family proceedings are dynamic and cannot be equated to criminal process; their purpose is to effect change to improve children's lives."
She also fears that such a move would only increase the risk of jigsaw identification.
In spite of their disappointment at the limits on the current changes, both Cavendish and Hemming see them as a step in the right direction. “We have got our foot in the door but we will have to keep prising it open,” says Cavendish.
Yet Cobb’s hope is that, by allowing the media into family courts, any suspicions that the allegedly ‘secretive’ family courts are producing an unfair form of justice will be eradicated. “What I hope they [the critics of the family justice system] actually see,” he said, “is a pretty impressive system which very carefully, in my view, evaluates what’s best for children”.
27 April 2009
On the phone
(..)”Gerry, he was on the phone to, erm, a member of his family, erm, curled up really on the floor just outside the sliding patio door just sobbing uncontrollably and in between sobs just saying ‘They’ve’, you know, ‘Someone’s taken her’ or ‘Somebody’s blo*dy got her’, you know, ‘She’s gone’ and absolutely erm, you know, you know, for such a strong man to see him on the floor broken he was, he was incapable of even standing up, he was just lying on the floor and just repeating himself, there was so little he could, you know, there was just nothing else in there.”
Russell O’Brien, in a statement to the Leicestershire Police, april 2008
“And Kate’s ringing, Gerry’s ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don’t, they honestly just didn’t know what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry’s in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity.”
(..)”Gerry kicked in to his sort of you know, action mode, which er he was ringing people, who do we need to ring, the British Embassy, I think he was trying to get hold of the British Embassy and just get somebody erm who was English speaking, who might be able to help, erm say early, I know he phoned his sister, he was phoning relatives, just telling anybody you know, you’ve got to help us, what can you do, can you think of anything”.
(..)“There were lots of, lots of phone calls going on with Kate and Gerry, erm, of which, yeah, I, I heard snippets and bits, they phoned the family, I know Gerry phoned his sister, Trish, and he was just sobbing and hysterical on the phone”.
Fiona Payne, in a statement to the Leicestershire Police, april 2008
“I was woken by the phone ringing at about 23.30. It was Gerry telling me that Madeleine had been taken. He was very upset on the phone, it was the worst phone call I have had in my life. remember asking him for contacts of people in Portugal so that we could call them. Gerry was in no state to say much. I tried to remain calm for him, I suggested that he contact the British Embassy and I remember him telling me that he had spoken to the local police but they were not taking the situation seriously. I remember Gerry saying that they did not treat the matter with urgency and only stated that Madeleine must have left on her own and that she would be back later. It was so frustrating, Madeleine did not do things like that, she was not that kind of girl.
Gerry is normally very calm and serene, he has a logical perception of things, but he was hysterical – he was shouting. He mentioned the possibility that that she could have been taken by a paedophile, I tried to calm him but there was nothing I could say to help him. I had never seen him so out of control. The pain and the anguish – it was the worst scenario imaginable, the waiting was unbearable.”
Trish Cameron in a statement to the Leicestershire Police, april 2008
"He was distraught, breaking his heart," Mrs Cameron said. "He said: 'Madeleine's been abducted, she's been abducted.'" (...)
"Nothing had been touched in the apartment, no valuables taken, no passports. They think someone must have come in the window and gone out the door with her."
Trish Cameron, Guardian 5/5/07
Mr McCann told the girl's aunt, Trish Cameron, from Dumbarton near Glasgow, that at about 2200 that night they had found the door open, with the bedroom window and shutters jemmied open.
BBC News 5/5/07
“The phone went last night and it was my brother Gerry, distraught on the phone, breaking his heart. “He said, ‘Madeleine’s been abducted, she’s been abducted’. They kept going back to check the kids every half-hour.”
On the last visit, at 10 pm, Mrs McCann went into the apartment, then ran out, screaming. Mrs Cameron said: “The door was lying open, the window in the bedroom and the shutters had been jemmied open. Nothing had been touched in the apartment, no valuables taken, no passports. They think someone must have come in the window and gone out the door with her. It looks as if somebody has either been watching, or they’ve targeted her.”
Trish Cameron, Daily Express, 5/5/07
"They weren't out for long, and they could see the apartment from the restaurant"
Brian Healy, Guardian 5/5/07
“Kate came screaming back to the group crying, ‘They’ve taken her, they’ve taken her’. Gerry was crying and roaring like a bull.” "They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut," said Trish Cameron, Madeleine's aunt. "Kate went back at 10pm to check, the front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jammied open, and Madeleine was missing."
Trish Cameron, Timesonline 6/5/07
Madeleine's aunt Trish Cameron recalled that she received a call later that night from her younger brother, Mr McCann, who told her: "I went back to check the children at nine o'clock. They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut." Mrs Cameron related that when Mrs McCann went to the two apartment a little under an hour later: "The shutters had been jemmied open. They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine."
Trish Cameron, Mail on Sunday 6/5/07
Trish Cameron, Mr McCann’s sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out". She said: "They had put the kids to bed at 7pm and checked on them every half an hour as they had dinner nearby with the rest of the party. Gerry said the window was open, the shutters broken and the door, which had been locked, hanging open."Kate came screaming back to the group crying, 'They've taken her, they've taken her'. Gerry was crying and roaring like a bull."Obviously someone has been watching them, watching the children, seeing where they stayed and seeing they were left alone. It just doesn't bear thinking about.
Trish Cameron, Telegraph 7/5/07
"On the night of Thursday, May 3, 2007, Patricia received a telephone call from Gerry informing us of the disappearance of Madeleine. Gerry manifested all those emotions one expects from a father who has lost a child in the circumstances. He was distraught and spoke at the same time he cried. He seemed frustrated with the slowness of the searches in Portugal, with the fact that the borders had not been closed, and with the fact that sniffer dogs were not being used. Patricia and I contacted the British Embassy to try and help in this regard."
Sandy Cameron in a statement to the Leicestershir Police, april 2008
“The-- the whole-- the whole night was hellish. You know? I've got crying for help from my brother and I’m stuck couple of thousand miles away from him. I can't do anything concrete. And then eventually he just said, "I don't know what to think. I think some pedophile or some other swine has taken Madeleine."
John McCann, MSNBC 2/3/08
“Gerry rang me and said how desperate the situation was. He said it was a disaster. And at first I thought there had been a car accident. And then he said no, and when he told me that Madeleine had been abducted from her bed in the hotel, I just said ‘No’. He said ‘I’m serious, Sue’. He said everyone in the complex was searching for Madeleine. He was really, really upset.
“And shortly after that, I had a phone call from Kate asking me to contact Fr Paul Seddon. He’s a friend of Kate and Gerry’s. Paul married Kate and Gerry and baptised Madeleine and she needed to speak to him.
Sue Healy, The Mayo News 3/7/07
'Gerry called me. He said, errm… "There's been a disaster, it's a disaster" and I thought there'd been a car accident. And it took me a while 'cause he was hysterical, errm… it took me a while to realise. He… he just said "Madeleine's been abducted from her bed". Errm… And, I sort of said "No, Gerry", you know, and he… he was, sort of, at pains to emphasise how important it was because, at this time, I think they'd been looking for some time and they hadn't told us right away. They'd looked for an hour or so. She said: "She's gone, mum, she's gone, mum", and… and I said "We'll get her back". And I was able to say this to Kate for quite a few months, "We'll get her back, we'll get her back". And now I find it is getting harder to say that to her. Errm… I… I believe it. We want her back, we're not going to accept that Maddie's gone from our life altogether. She's far too important for that.'
Sue Healy, Interview with Jordi González on the Antena 3 channel on Monday, October 22nd.
Susan Healy: 'Kate phoned me, errm… about an hour after Gerry and asked me to get in touch with, errm… Paul Seddon, who is the priest, Father Seddon, who married her, who baptised Madeleine, errm… and I didn't have his mobile phone so I rang a friend of Kate's and got… got him and he rang Kate right away and I think as soon as this happened, as soon as Kate realised what had happened, it was as if, errm.. she started to ask God right away to give her Madeleine. Errm… because Kate and Gerry were not the most devout family. We do have Catholic faith, errm… it's… it's the religion that we were brought up in, but I would never describe myself as a devout person. We're just ordinary people, errm… but Kate certainly has… has clung to her religion, errm.. since this happened. Possibly she feels that, you know, it has to be a greater thing that helps us to get Madeleine back. Errm… something with more power than… than we have.'
Sue Healy, Interview with Jordi González on the Antena 3 channel on Monday, October 22nd.
Their voices were out of control and I think it was just blind panic and fear that they couldn't get through to the police or to anybody, errm... to make it clear that they felt Madeleine had been abducted and they were afraid that every minute that was lost was crucial to getting Madeleine back. Errm… my daughter is very, very placid, very even tempered, and I saw her scream that night at the Consul. Screaming for help, for somebody to do something to... to help them to get Madeleine back. But I… I've never heard Kate raise her voice, she doesn't raise her voice, and she was shouting down the phone, I think, to emphasise how important it was, errm... to the British Consul. "I want somebody here now," errm… is what she was saying. But, yes, emotionally she was very up and down, errm… and that isn't, as I say, she's a very placid…
Sue Healy, Interview with Jordi González on the Antena 3 channel on Monday, October 22nd.
“Err you know I made err a phone call at some stage in the evening to err Fiona’s dad back in the UK who I’ve got a lot of respect for and has given me very, a lot of very good advice because you know you certainly would never have believe that you will find yourself in a situation err like this and you know there was very able people who were there, you know. Everybody who was out there you know was very responsible and people that I would turn to but under the circumstances I don’t think anyone functions err particularly anywhere near a hundred percent and you know just looking to try and get some advice from someone outside the situation because you know we just didn’t feel that we could get this message across to err to anybody that she had been abducted.”
David Payne in a statement to the Leicestershire Police, april 2008
"Yeah, I mean Kate, you know Kate generally, you know more emotional than err Gerry was and then all of a sudden Gerry would breakdown and you know just, you know saying she’s gone, you know she’s gone, err Kate was more like that on a continual basis throughout the evening. Err Gerry would still try and function in between the moments of you know breaking down and err you know and try to, you know, I had the discussion on with phone and you know what, what we gonna do and err and then, you know, they’d breakdown again, so there was…”
David Payne in a statement to the Leicestershire Police, april 2008
“I’m not sure who informed err Sky News of the event, you know a lot of that err I know Kate and Gerry spent a lot of time on the phone ringing people, they were just so, so beside themselves really.”
Diane Webster in a statement to the Leicestershire Police, april 2008
“On the morning of 4 May 2007 the mother of Kate telephoned my mother who, in turn, telephoned me. My mother told me that something terrible had happened, that somebody had taken Madeleine. I later sent a text message to Kate that same night and
I spoke with her on the telephone. She was hysterical, saying only that she wanted to be able to hug Madeleine. She was worried by the fact that there were only two police officers in the place and thought that the police were not helping her with anything. She continued to speak about Madeleine, of the cold that she could feel since she was dressed only in pyjamas and continued to look at the situation from the perspective of Madeleine. She told me that Gerry was outside to find the girl and during the following day we spoke on the telephone and we frequently sent messages [to each other].”
Linda McQueen in a statement to the Leicestershir Police, may 2008
“On the morning of the 4th of May, 2007, Kate called our land line but we did not hear it as we were asleep and did not put the phone on the bed. She left a message and asked us to call her once we heard the message. Kate must have tried Jon’s mobile once as we stirred when it rang at about 03h20. Jon spoke briefly with Kate and then called her around 03h30. I knew that Kate and Gerry were on holidays in Portugal. Kate was very anguished and on the telephone and told me that she had checked on the children every half-hour. It was around 22h00, and when she went to check on the children she found that someone had entered the apartment and taken Madeleine from where she slept; that Madeleine had been abducted. The person must have entered, passed by the twins and taken her.
Kate continued that when she entered the apartment via the patio doors, a breeze hit her in the face as if a door or window was open. When she entered the children’s room, the window was open, the blind had been forced and Madeleine had disappeared. Kate urged me to call all the close family and to ask them to pray for Madeleine.”
Michelle Thompon in a statement to the Leicestershir Police, may 2008
"She was in an absolutely hysterical state - very, very distressed. She blurted out Madeleine had been abducted."Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing It looks as though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her. Kate was incredibly upset. I've spoken to her since, and she's still completely devastated.”
Jon Corner, the Mirror, 5/5/07
Jon, whose wife grew up with GP Kate in their home city of Liverpool, said: “She phoned at about 3am. She just blurted out that Maddie had been abducted.
“She said, ‘They’ve broken the shutter on the window and taken my little girl’. She’s still devastated. She’s very upset that the police don’t seem to be doing anything.”
Jon Corner, The Sun 6/5/07
He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted. She told me, 'They have broken the shutter on the window and taken my little girl.'
"They had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal, but when they went back the last time they saw the damage.
"First they saw one of the window shutters had been forced, and then they saw the door was open and the bed was empty - and Madeleine was gone."
Jon Corner, Telegraph 7/5/07
“..on the night that Madeleine disappeared, on the Thursday, a friend of mine, or friends of Matt’s and mine, Kath and James LANDALE and James LANDALE’s a BBC News erm and at the time he was like Political Correspondent, erm I saw him the other night actually reading the news on BBC News 24 but I rang him, or I rang his wife Kath cos I had her mobile number, erm basically to say you know that Madeleine had gone missing, was there any way that we could get it on the news and that was, that was on the Thursday night”.
Rachael Mampilly in a statement to the Leicestershire Police, april 2008
And you mentioned another guy, John CORNER”?
Reply “Yes, he’s a friend of Gerry and Kate’s who was in England, I spoke to him on the phone, on Kate’s phone actually”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “That was the next morning, sort of you know, eight o’clock in the morning, that sort of time”.
Rachael Mampilly in a statement to the Leicestershire Police, april 2008
Close family friend Gill Renwick, of Liverpool, who also spoke to GP Kate yesterday, said: "Poor Kate and Gerry don't know where to turn."Madeleine has obviously been taken. She couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters were forced."
Jill Renwick, the Mirror, 5/5/07
Back home in Dumbarton, Mrs Cameron spoke to her brother again at 10am yesterday. "It was frustrating for him then because between 5am and 7am the police seemed to do nothing, they were standing about," she said.
Trish Cameron, Guardian 5/5/07
“I spoke to Kate by phone between 10:00 and 11:00am that morning and she confirmed that she wanted her mother, her father and Nora with her. The family liaison [officer?] arranged the journey of the mother, father and Nora to Portugal that same afternoon.”
Michael Wright in a statement to the Leicestershire police, april 2008
“During the next 24 hours, we maintained contact through text messages but I spoke to her around 04H30 on the next day, Saturday, the 5th of May of 2007. Kate was still frustrated and anguished and felt that nobody was doing anything to help find Madeleine. She told me that the police had left in the morning and returned around 09H30 and that now only a few agents with sniffer dogs were in the locale.”
Michelle Thompon in a statement to the Leicestershir Police, may 2008
“Early on the morning of Friday, 4th May 2007 Kate’s mother phoned my mother who, in turn, phoned me. My mother told me that Madeleine had disappeared and that she had been abducted. Nobody knew the full facts. I immediately sent a text message to Kate, without really knowing what to say. Kate asked me to pray.
On the following night at about midnight, Kate contacted me by phone, she was devastated and appeared lost. She said that judging from the action of the local police, one would think that she “had lost a dog”.
Nicky Gill in a statement to the Leicestershire Police, may 2008
Friends and relatives of the McCanns alleged yesterday that the search was only upgraded to a major investigation after the intervention of John Buck, Britain’s ambassador in Portugal. (…) Meanwhile, Gerry’s sister Philomena slammed Portuguese police for not doing enough to find Madeleine’s faster.
Speaking from her home in Glasgow she said Gerry was furious with the way the inquiry was being handled. “My brother is at his wits’ end. They’ve just played it down from the minute he first approached them.
“I mean, you can hear his voice breaking. His wife, she can barely stand up. She can’t sleep, she can’t eat.
“They spent seven hours in the police station yesterday. What for? It took three hours just to get a statement from Kate, and Kate is an extremely articulate young woman. What’s going on?”
Philomena McCann, Daily Express 6/5/07
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
GNR Officer P.J.C.d.C., in a statement 16/5/07
by Kazlux
Thanks Kazlux. >:D< >:D< >:D<
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/04/on-phone.html
Hi Viv,
Thank you for the telephone call research it made very interesting reading.
A call from Gerry to Sandy Cameron highlighted Gerry’s concerns that sniffer dogs were not being used. I wonder if it was only to Cameron he mentioned this?
The reason I mention this is if Gerry took Madeleine down towards the beach and concealed her there – would he want dogs that possibly could follow the trail? Did he want Madeleine found or did he just mention this to Cameron and no one else?
Reading the reactions of the McCanns as described in the telephone calls they describe imo more the reactions of guilty parents who have held their emotions under control whilst the abduction scenario unfolded and having achieved this their emotions explode and the reality and the enormity of what has happen sinks in.
The level of despair displayed at such an early stage just does not ring true.
Good morning all
My they were busy on their phones calling all and sundry to make sure the abduction theory was believed. What a pity they could not have put as much effort into searching for Madeleine, but then again what would have been the point.
Viv
I am so sorry you had those dreadful experiences as a child. A friend and myself saw a man exposing himself in a park we did tell her father but by the time he got there he was long gone. My Sister-in-law was abused by a man on her way home from school, it was a terrifying experience for her. My Mother-in-law has never got over it and blames herself for not picking her up. It is frightening to think just how many sick people there are out there, and sadly very few are found.
Hi All,
I see that Peter Hill, Editor of the DX, was up before the OC's Cultue, Media support Committee this morning. Joana Morias is currently doing a transcript should be available soon.
Hill will be grilled over the DX's reporting on the McCann case.
Hiya Wiz
I do agree with you about the telephone research. This is not reasonable conduct for people who have only just lost their child and trained doctors to boot.
I think the most graphic is the one by Russell OB of Gerry apparently lying just outside those patio doors sobbing on his mobile. To do this in full view of everyone and at such an early stage just makes absolutely no sense to me. Luke went missing when he was about 14. Having searched for him for several hours I called the police and my ex husband came over, he was not lying crying he was out searching for him and he found him and although a police officer did not handle the older lad who kept Luke out all night in a very pleasant way by all accounts! But by this stage I am afraid I was crying. I think it is accurate describing Gerry calming down and then starting again because that was just how I was, but they would know that and had months to think of appropriate answers in the rogs. Luke has learning disabilities so it was more worrying in that respect. I think women behave differently to men on the whole, my ex husband was calm, determined and very useful he took my older two sons with him to help him to "track" Luke!
Di, I mentioned those incidents from my childhood to just illustrate how common these incidents are and you relate some more. Almost anyone you speak to will be able to relate similar accounts. Paedophilia is rife and it is about time people woke up and started to try a little harder to understand this and protect children better, the point being children often just do not mention it.
xx
Hi Viv
Believe me I could tell you of many more stories that have been mentioned to me.
One thing I would like to say, when you mention the word paedophile to anyone they automatically assume it is a man. The sad fact is we are talking about women as well.
Hiya Di,
It is reasonable to assume it is a man because research indicates that only 5% of cases involve women and then quite often in conjunction with a man. I suppose Brady/Hindley and the Wests being the most horrific examples.
This is an interesting document on the Home Office Research and STatistics site. It is interesting in exploding the myth that sex offenders are lonely, solitary males, as it states below they are quite often married with children of their own, and clearly those children are at grave risk of harm.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/Sexual-violence-action-plan?view=Binary
extract:
What we know about the offenders
2.9. Sexual abusers against children can be found
amongst all socio-economic groups and all walks of life.
Some seek work and leisure pursuits which allow easy
access to children. This enables them to gain the trust
of the child and the parent over a period of time so
that defences are lowered and childhood sexual abuse
is facilitated. Far from being stereotypical loners, many
are married or in long-term relationships, some with
children of their own. Research estimates that only
about 25 to 40% of offenders have a “recurrent and
intense sexual attraction to children that would attract
a label of ‘paedophilia”12. The same research indicates
that less than 5% of sexual offences against children
are known to have been committed by women, often
in association with men. Research estimates that 60 to
70% of child molesters target only girls, about 20 to
33% only boys and 10% children of either sex.
HOC Culture, Media support committee meeting yesterday. couresy of Joana Morias.
From Journalism.co.uk: "We had every reason to believe it was a genuine line at that time": Express editor defends McCann coverage
By Judith Townend
The Daily Express 'did libel' the parents of Madeleine McCann, but the paper believed the stories were true at time of publication, its editor has said.
The paper subsequently published a front-page apology and Express Newspapers paid the couple £550,000 in damages last year for untrue allegations about the McCanns involvement in their daughter's disappearance in 2007.
"I do not print stories which I believe to be untrue. That is not what I do," Hill told the House of Commons select committee investigating press standards, libel and privacy, on Tuesday morning.
"We had every reason to believe it was a genuine line at that time."
The Express' coverage relied on leaked reports from the Portuguese police, which were legally prohibited from giving official comments, to the country's media, said Hill.
"We did our best to check up on these things, but of course it wasn't very easy to do so (...) We always put the stories to Mr and Mrs McCann's PR team," he said.
The team managing media enquiries on behalf of Gerry and Kate McCann did not always respond to the paper's calls, after the couple had been named as suspects by the Portuguese police.
After the McCanns complained about 38 Daily Express headlines, via their lawyers Carter-Ruck, the nature of British libel law prevented Hill from defending the case in court, he said.
The case was settled out of court, as he would not have been able to defend it in the name of 'public interest', as defined by British law, and it would have been 'unthinkable' to drag Mr and Mrs McCann through the courts, Hill said.
Public interest, in that 'very strict' sense, he said, 'means something that is of general concern to the well-being and safety - or whatever it is - of the public'.
"This was a matter which involved a family (...) This was not in the public interest, and could not be described as that," he added.
"[But] there was an insatiable clamour for information about what was going on; this was the question [Madeleine's location] everybody in the whole country (...) wanted to know.
"We were getting 10,000 messages a day, comments from people, nothing like this had ever been seen (...) It was quite clear to me this is what the readers wanted to read about it.
"[At] the time we had no reason to believe we were not telling the truth. You've got to understand this was the only show around at that time."
The Daily Express' coverage of the McCann case was not in 'isolation', added Hill, who said he was 'surprised' when the McCanns sued his paper 'only at that time'.
Hill said that he understood the McCanns had now also settled with two other newspaper groups, and one television station.
Suggestions that he should resign as editor over this case were 'ridiculous', he said: "If editors had to resign after every time a libel action was issued against them, there would be no newspaper editors."
Defending the current self-regulatory system for the UK press, Hill claimed that if the McCanns had complained via the PCC, he would have considered the paper's coverage very carefully.
From PressGazette.co.uk: "Daily Express editor defends Madeleine McCann stories"*
By Paul McNally
Daily Express editor Peter Hill has rejected claims that his paper was one of the "worst offenders" in its coverage of the Madeleine McCann disappearance.
Appearing before the media select committee in parliament this morning, Hill also dismissed suggestions that he should have resigned following the publisher's libel payout to Kate and Gerry McCann.
The McCanns accepted £550,000 from Express Newspapers last summer over more than 100 defamatory articles in the Daily Express, Daily Star and their Sunday sister titles.
When he gave evidence to the committee last month, Gerry McCann said the Express titles were "the worst offenders by some distance" and added that suing them for libel was "a very easy decision".
But Hill today defended his paper's coverage. Asked whether he should have resigned, he replied: "If editors had to resign every time there was a libel action against them, there wouldn't be any editors."
He said the Express was right to give prominence to a story that everyone in Britain was talking about.
"There was an insatiable clamour for information about what was going on," he told MPs.
"We pursued every possible lead, we sent teams all over Europe and North Africa to follow sightings. We did make genuine efforts to find Madeleine."
He said that while he accepted the paper had not told the truth about the McCanns on a number of occasions, he said that the material was not published maliciously and he questioned why Express Newspapers had been singled out.
"They still could sue any newspaper at all," Hill told the committee. "I was a bit surprised that we were the only newspaper."
Circulation boost
Hill acknowledged that putting Madeleine McCann on the front page of the Express increased circulation "by many thousand", but he added: "It was clear that this is what readers wanted to read about."
Asked by MP Philip Davies whether the Express "were milking the story", Hill replied: "I do not accept that at all."
In an earlier session with MPs, Gerry McCann claimed journalists "blatantly made up" stories in the pursuit of sales.
Hill said he had never put pressure on reporters in Portugal to provide a story for the paper when there was nothing new to report.
Committee chairman John Whittingdale asked him: "So the accusation that your paper was so desperate to increase sales that you were seeking out and, if necessary, fabricating Madeleine McCann stories you completely reject?"
Hill replied: "Completely reject. This is not the way people work. People don't think that way."
Express Newspapers made three separate libel payouts last year over the Madeleine McCann story.
As well as the £550,000 paid to the girl's parents, the group was named alongside Associated Newspapers, Mirror Group and News Group Newspapers in a libel claim by Robert Murat, the British expatriate falsely linked to Madeleine’s disappearance. He won £600,000 in damages.
Express Newspapers also paid out to the so-called "tapas seven" - the group of friends staying in the Algarve holiday resort of Praia da Luiz in 2007 when the three-year-old girl disappeared.
*comments are being censored were all deleted at Press Gazzete
Good Morning all,
I copy below article from today's Daily Express.
NEW DRIVE IN HUNT FOR MADELEINE
MISSING: Madeleine McCann
Wednesday April 29,2009
By Padraic Flanagan
Madeleine McCann’s parents told yesterday how they take hope from cases of abducted children being found alive years after they were snatched.
Kate and Gerry McCann said the ordeals suffered by child captives such as Austrian Natascha Kampusch and Americans Elizabeth Smart and Shawn Hornbeck show that youngsters can survive even after they go “off radar” for years.
The couple, both doctors from Rothley, Leics, have launched a push to trace Madeleine through the internet by using social networking sites like Facebook.
The pair have also opened a hotline and web portal for anonymous tip-offs from people who may have information about who took Madeleine.
The move comes after heart specialist Gerry launched a poster campaign in the Praia da Luz area on Portugal’s Algarve coastline where she vanished on May 3, 2007.
To coincide with the second anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance, a Portuguese language version of the “Find Madeleine” website has been created.
Gerry, 40, and his wife Kate, 41, said the search for their daughter is focusing on Portugal because residents “have never been properly asked about the information they may have to give”.
The couple were interviewed at the weekend by US chat show host Oprah Winfrey for a show to be broadcast on Monday to mark the second anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance. They made an emotional appeal for information on their daughter, whose sixth birthday is next month. In a statement on their website the McCanns said: “As the second anniversary of Madeleine’s abduction approaches, there is much still to be done.
“We continue to remain focused on our aim – to find Madeleine and bring her back home safely.
“We cannot and will not ever stop doing all we can to find her.
“The search for Madeleine continues with the same strength and determination, and thankfully, there are many people who are continuing to help.”
They added that the cases of Elizabeth Smart, Shawn Hornbeck and Natascha Kampusch helped them “appreciate that children can seem to disappear ‘off the radar’ for very long periods of time”. Schoolgirl Elizabeth was abducted from her home in Salt Lake City, Utah on June 5, 2002, at the age of 14.
She was found alive nine months later on in March 2003 about 18 miles from her home.
Shawn was missing for more than four years before being discovered in Kirkwood, Missouri, on January 2007 by police who were searching for another missing boy.
Natascha was held in a cellar near Vienna by Wolfgang Priklopil for eight years, until she escaped on August 23, 2006.
The McCanns said: “It is vital that we never, ever give up on Madeleine. We urge you to remember Madeleine as a real, living and findable little girl.”
On May 7, Channel 4 is screening a reconstruction of the youngster’s disappearance to assist the search.
Good afternoon all
Viv
Thanks for the link.
Wizard
Thanks for the articles, do we know which TV station has had to pay up?
I find the comment that Madeleine is a real, living and findable little girl a very odd thing to say, why on earth would any parent say she was real.
Hi Di,
You say. “I find the comment that Madeleine is a real, living and findable little girl a very odd thing to say, why on earth would any parent say she was real.”
Well I think I can answer this - the McCanns live in a fantasy world, they deal in a splattering of truth, half truths and lies. Madeleine was real and did exist so they confirm this fact intertwined between the lies and half truths.
Interesting comments from the DE, the nature of British libel law prevented us from defending the claims and we were surprised we were singled out. The McCanns PR team did not always respond to us, which would tend to suggest they were doing what I suggest below in posts on 3As. Milking it and cashing in, revelling in the stories. I can just see Gerry rubbing his hands in glee and smirking about how much he was going to make as they played right into his hands. It seems to me this whole death scenario could be just one big fabrication. Yes, the detectives knew the McCanns were involved and yes, they obviously had to check out whether that included homicide in the apt, but I am sure they moved on from that. Not that Gerry wanted us to talk about that at all, but we are Gerry and your ex mate David Payne.
illyofthevalley wrote:
Morning Viv,
Do you think that LP are still investigating this crime?
Quote "I think if people cannot see what is likely to have happened that also fits perfectly with the Portuguese Police shelving the case and British police continuing the investigation with the usual high degree of confidentiality reserved for such a case, insisting that maybe Madeleine may still be alive and could be found, then maybe, there are a lot of stupid gits about!"
Replies to FOI Act letters tell us this is an ongoing case and of course it would be because it has still not been discovered what happened to Madeleine. She is a British child and the McCanns etc are British, that makes it very much a British responsibility to properly deal with this case. Madeleine is also a Ward of the British Court. Just because the police etc are not prepared to discuss what they are doing does not entitle people to assume they are doing nothing. Since when did the police ever tell us what they are doing in a serious case where they have still not gained sufficient evidence to bring the perpetrators to justice. How many cases have you read about where murderers etc get charged many years later, and how much did you hear about the suspect/what the police were doing whilst it was still under investigation? I think it is about time people just started to be a little more realistic about this!
_________________
Use your own thoughts and feelings to consider the truth, then you may avoid the lie. Sometimes we may not know the whole truth, there is no dishonour in admitting that.
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viv
Post subject: Re: Reply to FOI requests regarding Madeleine Fund Link
New postPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:46 pm
Mafia Boss
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:58 pm
Posts: 2013
Hi Scribbler, I just found I had two messages but when I looked it said they had been removed again by the sender. Sometimes it appears they are still in your outbox but I find they have actually been sent.
My understanding is that the DNA that they did manage to extract was not a clear match to Madeleine and this was only from minute traces of blood anyway both behind the sofa and in the hire car and so would not have actually proved her death in the apartment or the presence of her body in the boot. Any contamination with blood however would cause both of those dogs to react as they did. Take the smell around Kate for example, she may have been on her period! I think the PJ jumped the gun with the reaction of the dogs, this is not evidence as Grime clearly explains, it needs to be corroborated with forensic analysis and it was not.
Grime also clearly explains that the EVRD dog Eddie will also react to human blood, and so I am afraid there is simply no evidence he was even reacting to cadaverine. I find the suggestion of someone planting that proposterous. But I do think that Gerry McCann has sought to capitalise on these death allegations to make a lot of money from libel claims. If you make an allegation of a serious criminal offence against someone like the Daily Express did and you cannot prove that is true then you are libelling someone. It does not matter whether or not Gerry or anyone else killed Madeleine, that is the law, the Express could not prove it to be true. If the reactions of the dogs actually proved that then clearly the Express would have relied upon that. But even if the reaction did prove it, which it does not, it still does not prove that it was either Kate or Gerry that killed her, does it? Hence Gerry McCann waited until the Daily Express had been printing those allegations for several months. I believe with the clear intention of getting people to talk about what did not happen and with a view to maximising the amount of cash he could make. Clearly the more seriously you are libelled the higher the damages will be. Getting half a million is not usual. Mr Meyer indicated on TV, although was promptly shut up, that he had offered to stop the press printing these things but Gerry McCann did not want him to! The PNC normally stop unpleasant allegations being printed in the press without any fuss, any damages, or anyone knowing anything about it. The whole point is this is not how Gerry wanted it handled. He wanted to leave them to just keep on printing it. So he did not care at all about these allegations did he? In libel you have just one year from the date of first publication to issue a writ. By waiting until Spring of 2008, Gerry made sure he was right on the wire for making such a claim, and, as I say getting the biggest pot of cash out of it. But he could have just quietly shut the press up several months previously. Work out why he chose to handle things in the way that he did. He knew there was no evidence to prove those allegations, he wanted those allegations to keep on being printed, because they were libellous, would throw people off, and would make him a lot of money.
I am absolutely certain that a decision was reached with Portugal that they themselves could not properly investigate these British people, sex offending and fraud by them etc and they should shelve it so that British authorities could continue to quietly investigate with a view to ultimately finding Madeleine and prosecuting those responsible. Leaks were also completely shut down from when Rebelo took over the investigation with it being reported he was going back to the kidnapping scenario but again maintaining the McCanns and Murat as arguidos. It does not really take a lot of working out does it? I do not know whether or not Murat assisted the McCanns but this is clearly possible. Particularly given Gerry's guilty and angry reaction when asked, and do you know Robert Murat. Sandra is a very canny journalist who has consistently asked the McCanns some of the best questions, including as to drugging the children,I am quite sure that they were.
----
Viv, I've tried twice to PM you about your above post but don't seem to be able to get my messages to move from my outbox. I'm assuming you haven't received them. Basically I wanted to ask if you think it's possible the DNA and cadaverine could have been planted, e.g. by someone hoping to make a financial profit, e.g. from litigation and media careers :D If not for the DNA and the dogs indicating the presence of a corpse in the apartment and the hire car, and on the mother's clothing, I would suspect Madeleine to be alive and well, being kept somewhere safe, and the whole thing to be a money-making hoax. That's why I wondered (not being in any way a scientist!) whether the evidence for her death could have been faked. Lastly, I wanted to ask if you think Portugal was asked by the UK to shelve its investigation so that the UK could conduct its own investigation on the QT.
thanks,
Scribbler
Wiz / Di
It is ironic isn't it that the McCanns now wish to use such strange words, Madeleine is a real, living and findable little girl.
Real? What of that horrible painted picture, lips apart, of Madeleine in a red dress with tinted and pretty short bobbed hair? There is talk on 3 As that the Mcs were seeking to get this pic from Corner to use in their campaign. When we look at the genuine pic the tennis balls pic, she looks incredibly different, her hair is several inches longer for a start off and she clearly looks older. I do not accept that posed pic was taken at Christmas 2006, if you look at the age of Amelie above in a similar pic she looks about 10 months, which would make Madeleine 30 months. Just two and half. if you look at the expression of Maddie in that red dress above as he feeds Maddie, it is a picture of intense sadness, why would she look this way, at Christmas?
Maddie never seems to have been a real child to the McCanns, just a doll they can make money out of.
*as she feeds Amelie*
My speed typing is not improving!
The comment Portuguese residents have never been given the opportunity absolutely infuriates me.
The PJ door to doored about 430 residents and took hundreds and hundreds of statements.
Sickening liars!
Hi Wizard
Yes you're right a truth between the half truths and I wonder how many more of those we are going to see.
Hi Viv
I think Gerry thinks he is invincible, with Kate I don't think that is the case. I would also imagine Carter-Ruck would wish Gerry kept his thoughts and opinions to himself, he does have a habit of coming across as aggressive and opinionated.
However Viv, I do hope you are right and our Police are still actively investigating to find out what happened to poor innocent Madeleine, as it seems her family and their friends will do anything to divert attention away from the real truth.
Hi Viv
I agree, it has been said hundreds of houses were searched and the occupants questioned, also houses on the outskirts. Kate & Gerry's family also keep saying the borders were not closed, yet G A says they were. We also hear initially on 3rd May Gerry wanted sniffer dogs brought in, yet when E & K were brought in the PJ said Kate and Gerry were very agitated.
Sometimes it feels like we are all going round in circles and coming up with nothing, but then again perhaps that is exactly what they are wanting, us all to give up. I will admit sometimes I feel like it, but then I think of that innocent little child and what she must have endured or perhaps still is and that's enough to keep my fingers pounding the keys.
I agree with PJ Reis
Why could Kate & Gerry not explain these deleted calls.
From PJ’s final report – summary (part 2) on McCannfiles
Madeleine’s disappearence the PJ have doubts
Mr and Mrs McCann were never closely questioned by the PJ about the detail of their calls, but Gerald McCann excused the deletions by saying that his telephone's memory only retained details of the last ten calls made. This obvious inaccuracy (It already had retained details of 17 calls) does not appear to have been challenged by the PJ and it does not in any way explain the selective deletions from his wife's handset.
So the bottom line is that Kate McCann was in Apartment 5A when Madeleine cried for her father between 22.30 and 23.45 on Tuesday 1st May 2007, leading to a unique flurry of late night calls and to unique calls very early the following morning. A forensic examination of the records of Madeleine's attendance at the "Lobsters" crèche on Wednesday 2nd and Thursday 3rd May 2007 is critically important because if they have been falsified, to establish she was there when she was not, this case takes on an entirely new dimension and sets different search parameters.
Secondly, if the memories of the mobile telephones were deleted in the way suspected, a level of cunning is implied that would be capable of conceiving plan to deliberately delay reporting Madeleine's "disappearance"; if for no other reason than to disassociate it from the crying incident on Tuesday 1st May 2007.
Of course, this is speculation and it is entirely possible that further investigation and the much awaited transparency by Mr and Mrs McCann will totally exonerate them. But why don't they simply produce the SMS messages and explain why call details were deleted?
By Paulo Reis and associates
Di, the deleted messages can only have be denied because in someway they were incriminating. There really cannot be any other explanation.
Wizard
I agree.
I am just going to look outside the box for a moment, and it will only be a moment because I hate to go there.
What if, as has been said, DP & GM are indeed involved with paedophilia. This holiday was arranged for various reasons but something went very wrong. What if Madeleine had to be handed over to someone with far more power. Kate being aware of these people, or maybe not, but having no idea what was to unfold and totally shocked when she truly did find Madeleine missing and realised who had taken her.
I know it all sounds something from fantasy but the one thing I remember is an independant witness on the evening of May 3rd, saying she heard Gerry talking on his mobile phone saying "please don't hurt her" and as far as I am aware this has not been disputed.
Far fetched perhaps yes, but at the moment I cannot come up with anything better, just maybe K & G know exactly where Madeleine is and who with.
Back in the box now.
On the other hand, Gerry may have known he was being overheard and stated "please don't hurt her" for effect. I would put nothing past him.
The fact that K & G refuse to accept that Madeleine was known as Maddie I find extremely odd even her Uncle called her Maddie.
So we obviously come back to Mrs Fenn's statement of a child crying Daddy or Maddie for over an hour. A coverup, maybe.
K & G knowing where Madeleine is and who with could still be true even if she is no longer alive.
by Hernâni Carvalho
We asked some Portuguese journalists if they believe that Maddie could be alive. None of them does. Former inspector Gonçalo Amaral and psychologist Paulo Sargento don’t believe it either
Júlia Pinheiro, TVI talk show host “A domestic tragedy”
“Hardly. Looking at the facts that are known and what has been revealed, through the various reconstitutions, namely the documentary that was broadcast by TVI, the little girl can hardly be alive. I don’t know what happened, but I don’t believe that Maddie is alive. I don’t read anything into the parents’ behaviour, but I’d love to interview them. To have the opportunity to talk with them like Oprah did. The McCanns have never given a deep interview to a Portuguese television. If they would give me an interview, maybe I could understand and decode what lies in their soul. I think that there is a domestic tragedy that we’re not able to discern yet. I believe that there is a secret with them that we may find out about, some day. It’s surely a heavy secret.”
Pedro Mourinho, SIC journalist “A big fat lie”
“I don’t believe it. I can’t imagine someone fetching a child from a room where two others are, taking one and leaving the others behind. I think that Maddie’s parents’ behaviour over the past two years has the purpose of maintaining and feeding a big fat lie. I believe that they will do it until the end. Until the truth is known or until the story dies on its own. And I’m not accusing anyone. I recognise that the McCanns have been trying to prevent the story from dying. But I don’t know why the heck they do it.”
Fátima Campos Ferreira, RTP journalist “I believe that she has passed away by now”
“I don’t believe it. No matter how the disappearance happened, I don’t believe that Maddie is alive. Whether it was an accident and she died in the apartment or she was taken that night, I believe that she has passed away by now. Unfortunately, I don’t believe that she is alive. Concerning her parents and their behaviour, I’m not sure about anything.”
Paulo Sargento, forensic psychologist “I don’t believe the abduction theory”
“I don’t believe in that possibility, because I simply don’t believe the abduction theory! All the forensic evidence, according to the majority of experts in the field, point towards the little girl’s death. In fact, I believe that if the little girl was alive, we would have received a sign about it. The only sign that we have about that is a belief or a lie from the parents. Nothing else. First they put up a show to conceal what actually happened, then, in the various attempts that they made to extinguish the phenomenon, there were so many differing actions and reactions that they prevented the phenomenon itself from extinguishing. And since then, we have been watching some breaths that result from the parents’ pressure, the last of which is their appearance on Oprah’s show and a so-called reconstruction that was made to measure by the McCanns.”
Gonçalo Amaral, former PJ coordinator “The little girl died on location”
“I didn’t believe it from the outset. The little girl died on the location where she disappeared from. All the investigative evidence indicate that. The programme that was broadcast by TVI shows it to evidence. The lies that were told by the group that dined with the McCanns that night, as well. The parents themselves gave a sign, on the 21st of June 2007. They summoned a South African expert in finding corpses. Everything else are issues with the FindMadeleine fund. It can only exist as long as a living child is searched for…”
Alexandra Borges, TVI journalist “She died, murdered or not”
“I would like to believe that she is still alive. But I find that very difficult. Concerning the McCanns, I have only one explanation. It’s the fact that they are parents and refuse to believe that their daughter may be dead. Murdered or not. Believing in the abduction theory allows them to keep her alive until the contrary is proved. It sound illogical, but feelings have no logic.”
source: TVmais, 29.04.2009, paper edition
by astro
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/
I think the last paragraph says it all.
What Alexendra Borges did not say was, if Maddie has in fact died, the fund cannot continue.
Off now.
Hiya Di
I do agree that both lawyers and media advisers have probably advised Gerry to stop commenting and taking the lead because he does give off such a negative image and has the unfortunate knack of always saying the wrong thing. I do think this is because he lacks insight into his own personality and failings. Like a true narcissist he believes he is supreme to other mere mortals and quite invincible. I also agree Kate is not like that and probably gets quite frustrated and upset with how Gerry presents. Always having to try and make excuses for him. Oh just leave him a moment he is probably just hot..as we got another display of his stage managed histrionics just like the people were treated to that night in PDL as he repeatedly flung himself on the floor and wailed. I remember meeting an offender who I believe was also a true narcissist, he was absolutely convinced he was a brilliant actor, but in fact just got bit parts as an extra earning less than what it cost him in expenses to chase the stars. He thought he could spin me a complex yarn at a pre sentence report interview to explain why he broke his female next door neighbours jaw. I think he was still utterly shell shocked that neither I or the Judge accepted that as they clanged his cell door shut. Gerry is just the same IMO. He lives in a fantasy world and the only person who believes in his fantastic schemes is Gerry McCann.
Di, I read that statement of a witness apparently overhearing Gerry McCann repeatedly say on his mobile in an agonised voice please don't hurt her.
Maybe he lost control of the situation that he himself created? I am struggling why he would fake such a conversation for a witness to overhear?
I think there are two things we can be pretty certain of. Dead or alive Gerry McCann has a very good idea of where Madeleine is, but if still alive, maybe he is not in a position of certainty that he could recovere her? The other thing I am quite certain of, Stuart Prior does not believe or trust Gerry McCann any more than we do, but realises what he is up against and would like to be able to recover Madeleine, even if it is only her body. He has to keep putting the pressure on Gerry and I think Gerry demonstrates he is doing just that. Only about a month after Madeleine went missing, Gerry was saying how he would like to get back to normal. But Kate told us her life just cannot be normal any longer. Two years later Gerry demonstrates to us that intense pressure is being put on him, he cannot get back to a normal life and cash in from Madeleine just as he planned. His fake dreams, just did not materialise, they never do.
xx
xx
BTW Di, I think that witness heard this a few days later. I will try and find it again as I only looked at it recently.
Sometimes I do struggle with wondering who are the real witnesses and who are the ones telling lies for Gerry. Somehow I just get the feeling this one is true.
Di, One of the waiters said that only the men got up to check the children. I believe that Maddie crying on 1 May was linked to her ultimate removal because I fear she was being sexually abused. I do not believe that Kate McCann could have been present during this, if she was, she is another Rose West and I find that very difficult to come to terms with.
I think Kate's agonised response that night is due to the fact that she did know Maddie was being abused and she knew "they" had taken her. We always have to wonder why Brian Kennedy has been so helpful to the McCanns. It is like there was a major development last October/November time and Kennedy seems to have moved away from the McCanns. He had already been cutting links with bent so called private investigators. I think the police caused major problems for them around that time and Kennedy may well be involved. A man who likes boats apparently. How else could Madeleine have been so successfully just spirited away, unless of course the taxi driver is right and that does seem possible.
di said:
Sometimes it feels like we are all going round in circles and coming up with nothing, but then again perhaps that is exactly what they are wanting, us all to give up. I will admit sometimes I feel like it, but then I think of that innocent little child and what she must have endured or perhaps still is and that's enough to keep my fingers pounding the keys.
Di, I do think Gerry is quite clever and manipulative enough to stage what he wants the public to be focussing on, so that they are lost and cannot see the wood for the trees. Paedophiles, if that is what he is, always know their behaviour is wrong in the eyes of the law and will do anything to avoid people finding out. But there are witnesses against Gerry and Payne and I do feel these professional witnesses speak the truth. Look at the concerted efforts by some on 3 As to discredit these witnesses and divert thread about these subjects. It is the last thing they want people to discuss and it is why I continue to be a pretty major target for abuse! I believe the comments of people like Vee8, Rosie etc are so utterly bizarre they are paedophiles and this is why they would seek to excuse this conduct. It seems to me it has always annoyed them more that I focus on Gerry, they rarely have any comment at all about Kate.
But I do have to seriously wonder about Kate. If she actually wanted Maddie back or thought there was any prospect, if she thought that was more important than herself then she would help the police. There is a statement missing from her but it does not seem to me that she helps the police very much at all. I have always said Kate is much more difficult to understand than him, she is more complex and I still do not feel confident I really do understand her. I know what I think is most likely. She is ill and browbeaten and allowed things to happen she was too weak to stop, but I am not sure about that!
The best words from the views posted IMO:
I think that there is a domestic tragedy that we’re not able to discern yet. I believe that there is a secret with them that we may find out about, some day. It’s surely a heavy secret.”
This I believe is the reality and it is a terrible tragedy for Kate. I think she years for her little girl back but knows that she is probably dead by know and that is a very forlorn hope. In a way Gerry made her too famous and sought after for her to be able to be kept alive, but still, there is just a chance. I am sure she was alive when removed from that apt. Hence Gerry's trickery and confidence in everything he has done.
The Head Chef seems pretty clear there were only three couples at the table, not four plus Diane Webster and that the alarm was raised at 9.20, not 10 am. So, was Diane Webster child minding or did he just fail to notice her? Did she go back to the table to collect the clothing that was left behind? Who was actually missing from the table at 9.20 that evening? Could Maddie have been bundled into the dark blue vehicle? From what he describes Kate must have been one of the people missing from the table when he arrived at around 9.10 and then at 9.20 she appears screaming Maddie is missing.
Processos
Volume II
Pages 471 - 473
Arlindo Epifanio Goncalves Fernandes Peleja
Date/Time: 2007/05/08 21H10
Executive Chef
Portuguese
Concerning the issue of the process said;
. Is a functionary of the Ocean Club establishment since the 13th of January of the current year (2007), and is employed as executive chef of the kitchen. He clarifies that along with being responsible for the five (5) kitchens (one of whom is the Tapas) of the Ocean Club, his post essentially centres on the principal kitchen next to a reception, close to the restaurant MIRAGE. His work takes him occasionally to the other kitchens;
. He records that the past Thursday, 3rd of May, he left the central kitchen with the objective of going to the Tapas restaurant in order to determine that everything was functioning smoothly;
. When he arrived there, by vehicle, at around 21:10, he remembers that next to the Tapas reception, he saw a vehicle, dark blue in colour, with Portuguese license plates. Although he cannot be definite, he believes it was a Fiesta or Focus. The deponent furthers that is was not a small car, and for this reason it could very well have been a Focus and not a Fiesta. He tells that he does not remember any sticker indicating that it was a rental car. Inside the vehicle he saw no one.
. After parking his vehicle, he entered through the reception of that restaurant, in the left hand direction, toward the side opposite the pool, and passed by the esplanade. He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples, without children, and all of them adults. On the esplanade, he encountered no one else.
. A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location;
. Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
. When he left, he noticed that the dark blue vehicle was no longer in its location (previously noted) and does not know of the existence or any connection between the presence of that vehicle and the disappearance of the child;
. Ending, states that during the days that preceded the facts, he did not notice any element/individual/fact that would have merited his attention;
Tony Almeida, Inspector with this Polícia Judiciária.
If I had to choose a suspect who could have abducted Maddie it would be this man who used to park right next to the Mcs apt and split up with his partner in Dec 06 just five months before, has no children.
If Maddie was taken earlier it could have been him. I am not starting to say I think the Mcs are innocent, just I hope the PJ really thoroughly checked this English guy out!
Processos
Volume IV, Pages 973 - 975
Date of diligence: 2007/05/12
Time: 19H00
Locale: D.I.C. de Portimão
Entity that presides:
Functionary that executes: Davide Gomes, Inspector
Witness Name: George William James
Occupation: Gardener
Nationality: British
As he does not understand Portuguese, he is accompanied by interpreter, Robert James Queriol Eveleigh Murat.
Because he is asked, George James states that her has been in Portugal for about seven years and that before this lived with his ex-companion, ******, in Praia da Luz.
That he separated from his companion in December of 2006, date upon which he began to reside in his actual address, and where he lives alone, and is not involved in any relationship.
That he has no children, and that the person with which he maintains his closest relationship, is still his ex-companion who resides in what used to be their home .
Clarifies that he worked in the garden centre in Almadena (PlantScape), Lagos, according to what he remembers, between the years 2000 and 2002.
From this point, he was self-emplyed, exercising his functions as gardener in various residences, principally in Praia da Luz.
In relation to the Ocean Club, he does work for this tourist complex as a gardener, receiving
monthly an official invoice. He has worked there for about two years.
He does not care for all the gardens of the Ocean Club, but only for the gardens in block 4 and only the green zone which is found near the exterior or the zone close to the street. He does not look after for the pool-side gardens.
Equally he cleans the steps of this block, and cleans the windows in the stair area. He does not work inside the apartments.
Having been asked, states that he knows the apartment from where Madeleine went missing, but that he never entered that apartment.
He works for the Ocean Club, every week on Wednesdays and always on this day, and that he has never gone to the Ocean Club other than on this day with the exception of the last day of the month when he heads to the principal reception of the OC, which is opened 24 hours and is situated on Rua Direita in Praia da Luz.
That he normally works in the Ocean Club, from 14H00, for about 01H30 to 02H00, and leaves there about 15H30, 16H00.
He goes to work using his ex-companion’s car, which is a Citroen C15, white in colour, and for which he does not remember the license plate.
He always parks in the area of block 4, and when it is possible, he parks next to the apartment from where the girl went missing, for no particular reason other than habit.
States that the last time he was in the Ocean Club was on Wednesday, before the child went missing or on the 02/05/07.
States that on Thursday, the 3rd of May, 2007, he was working in a garden in, Praia da Luz, for private clients, until 12H00 and after that ate some sandwiches and had a drink next to the ocean. He made the food himself.
On this day around 14H00, he went to another garden situated in Praia da Luz. He left there around 16H00.
After this he headed to Espiche, to the Rainbow (Arco Íris) Bar, and left there around 19H00.
After this he went home to take a shower and had dinner. He left again to return to the Rainbow Bar around 21H30 and stayed there until about 23H30.
At the bar he contacted a British individual whose name is ***** who he knows has a mobile-home and was parked in the Espiche camping site and who left on Monday, 7/05/2007.
States that he is known in the bar.
When asked, he does not remember having seen any strange situation. He does not know anyone from the family of the missing girl and has never seen them.
But of course, if Maddie was taken earlier, which it looks like she was, why would the Mcs tell lies about that!
Even so they must have thought gardener was a good suspect!
xx
The problem with the Chef’s time line is it disagrees with everyone else. If, however, the alarm was raised as early as 9.20 it means the Carpenters did hear the initial search for Madeleine and it also makes the Smith’s sighting plausible.
Gerry tells us he was talking to Jez Wilkins at 9.15pm and as far as I can see Wilkins doesn’t disagree with this time but does not confirm it. He left his apartment at about 8.30 but does not give an exact time for his return. Therefore the 9.15 meeting with Gerry could have happened earlier - may be did not look at his watch.
The 9.30 check by O’Brien and Oldfield could not have happened when they said as the alarm would have been already raised and Tanner’s sighting would not have happened either at the time she said.
If the chef’s timeline is correct then all of the T9 are in on it or covering up for some reason as all their times only fit in with what Gerry postulates.
The chef’s time for the alarm being raised in not 5 or 10 minutes out it is a full 40 minutes out – could he be that wrong with the time?
Morning Viv,
Suspects – the English gardener or the driver of the dark blue Fiesta/Focus. Could they have been involved? Well the answer to that is yes. The blue car parked near the McCanns apartment would allow for a quick get away.
I doubt this though – my reasoning is the McCanns do not really seem suspicious of known people in the investigation - with the exception of Murat early on. They appear to clutch at Tanner's statement which is very vague and doubtful. Even Gerry must realise she could not have walked passed him without him seeing her. So why do they do this?
The only conclusion I can draw is they know what happened and one or two of the T9 are also aware of the situation but they are covering up for something which perhaps has nothing to do with Madeleine’s death but would impact on them if they told the truth. They are harbouring a secret which to them anyway is bigger than Madeleine’s disappearance.
Viv as you know I still believe in the dog (Eddie) who was trained to alert to the presence of a corpse scent. As I still believe this - it is not possible for me to entertain a stranger abduction as the scent of a corpse would not be in the apartment. This scent would indicate that Madeleine was dead before the McCanns went out to dinner – thus they are involved.
With regard to Eddie’s alert – he is highly trained and does not alert to pork chops, Kentucky fried chicken leftovers, feminine hygiene products etc etc etc. Also I give as much credence to Kate’s claim of the 6 corpses she attended via to her holiday causing the scent as Jane Tanners sighting of bundleman.
Interesting report from Joana Morias this morning.
Amaral and former policemen are investigating the “Maddie” case
Former coordinator reveals that Portuguese, Spanish, English and Germans are working with him - by Alexandra Serôdio
A group of former policemen from Portugal and other countries, which includes Gonçalo Amaral, is investigating the Maddie case at their own expenses.
The former Judiciária coordinator told JN that the result will be communicated to the Attorney General.
Restlessness and curiosity were heavy and the bitter taste of a “precocious and political” archiving left them “brooding” on a solution. The words are from Gonçalo Amaral – the first head of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann – who reveals that the group of investigators, that is made up by Portuguese, Spanish, English and Germans, wants to “know the truth”.
“We have been talking, exchanging ideas, trying to understand what happened, discussing possibilities and thinking about the entire process”, the former coordinator of the Polícia Judiciária’s Criminal Investigation Department in Portimão reveals. Despite refusing to reveal what is being done on the field and in what form, he asserts that “this investigation is not to arrange for evidence against the McCann couple”.
“We want to contribute for the truth to be known and in that way, for justice to be made. I there are guilty people, they must stand before justice. This is a right that assists any citizen in this country, to fight for justice to be done in every case”, Gonçalo Amaral sustained, stressing that “it’s not only the courts, the policemen and the judges that fight for justice, anyone can do it”.
Asserting that this investigation does “not intend to persecute anyone”, the former coordinator stresses the need to understand “what could have been done back then and what can be done now”. Always in an attempt to “find the truth and to understand what really happened to Madeleine”. Opting not to reveal major details, Gonçalo Amaral says that the group is made of retired policemen, who investigate “at their own expenses” and “without the use of funds”.
What is established will then be put into a “well based document” that will be delivered to the Attorney General, with the request to reopen the process that has been archived since July 21, 2007.
“The criminal investigation was abruptly interrupted, before it even got halfway. There is still a lot to be investigated that may even lead nowhere, but it may lead to other paths and to the truth”, the former coordinator advances, asking for “political courage” to those who have the power to “reopen the process”.
“If the Attorney General’s mailbox was flooded with, for example, three million requests to reopen the process, I believe the case might be reopened”, the investigator stated.
source: Jornal de Notícias, 30.04.2009
hiya Wiz
Thanks for that resume which is really helpful especially:
If the chef’s timeline is correct then all of the T9 are in on it or covering up for some reason as all their times only fit in with what Gerry postulates.
It seems very likely to me the choristers would do as the choirmaster says!
This man is an executive chef managing all the restaurants and I think he would be pretty clear what time he did arrive at the TAPAS to check what was happening there. Much later from what we could gather and there would not have been a lot of meal preparation for him to check.
As you say it does add a new dimenstion in that Maddie could have been whisked away in that car and I just have this recollection of the PJ wanting to seize a car that Russell O'Brien had hired which seems to tie in with the chef being asked if he could remember seeing a hire sticker or not. Was it a Vauxhall Opel or something like that and would that be similar to the larger Ford model he thinks that it was.
This would completely change matters and explain what Russell was up to during that great disappearing act he did that night! I am afraid I just do not accept that in a very clean country like Portugal the children were suffering from all this sickness and diarhoea as claimed or that any parents would leave tots who were so afflicted that would be a negligence too far!
Wiz - if you look at the timeline produced on Joana's blog a few posts back it is not just the Exec Chef who places events much earlier.
I think this is why the PJ knew they were telling some real whoppers about this so called timeline! That means Madeleine had been missing for almost an hour and half before they raised the alarm and they have the audacity to complain that imaginary borders were not closed when in fact the PJ did alert the Spanish Police! I have always thought they did delay reporting this matter to make sure Maddie was already clean away.
Someone put a remarkably good post on 3 As last night. Why did Gerry simply say to Mrs Fenn oh a child has been abducted. Why did he not start questioning her about anything she may have seen or heard, that would have been a very obvious thing to have done by a concerned parent. The fact that he does not even identify to her that it is his child that has gone missing demonstrates he just was afraid to her alert to me and makes him seem even more guilty! It does provide an explanation as to why he did not mention it was HIS child, doesn't it!
http://justiceformaddie.blogspot.com/2009/04/new-timeline-maddie-missing-at-920-not.html
Sorry not before they raised the alarm, before the police were contacted at 10.40 that night. It kind of brings me back to is the Smith sighting from this Irish family false? Gerry needed to produce evidence that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger and the PJ would not accept Tanner's word for it and put out a press bulletin, but a few weeks later the moment they heard from the Smith family immediately did so and Gerry achieved his objective of putting stranger abduction into the public domain. It is a bit weird isn't it that these start witnesses the Smith come from
Drogheda in Ireland, not a million miles from Donegal where Gerry hales from is it?
Also Goncalo says he got taken off just as he was wanting to bring the Smiths back, did the Irish /British Police realise something that Goncalo did not? This was the McCanns own personal brand of abduction of Madeleine? Hence Rebelo going back to the kidnapping theory?
Wiz, I am afraid Goncalo continues to cause me concern. He has just put on a documentary insisting that he can prove Maddie died in that apt and using the timelines of a bunchof obvious liars to do so.
Now he tells us he is getting together to look at the truth of what happened with other police officers. That would surely involve him forgetting his theory and going back to scratch. Is he prepared to do that having written a book and produced a TV documentary that IMO are patently wrong?
His conduct has a familiar ring to it of what the McCanns say they are doing with ex police officers etc, it would be great if we could actually trust Goncalo but I am afraid he has done an awful lot to lose my trust. Not least insisting Madeleine is dead on no cogent evidence and taking the word of a bunch of liars to concoct his reconstruction. He is also behaving in the same way as the Mc
Canns by cashing in with books and films. I am sorry to state this but this is just how I feel. If he comes good with a proper investigation I will be the first one to say thank you Goncalo!
Morning all
Wizard
Interesting times ahead. GA is not going to give up on Madeleine no matter how much pressure is put on him. I believe he will get to the truth, no matter who it hurts.
Hi Di,
Going back to your post yesterday determination is what is needed in this case and patience. I think over time the truth will slowly emerge and we shouldn’t give up. There is continually evidence placed into our domain that chips away at the Tapis 9 time line – so as you say interesting times ahead. There also seems to be a good reason for the T9’s behaviour and it must surely be some kind of cover up for something that implicates them in some way.
This case is not going to disappear and eventually it will be resolved.
We all lived in terror of him, the British Frizls.
This is distressing to read.
'We lived in terror'
In a British case that mirrors Josef Fritzl's crimes, Beth Carpenter and her sisters were raped by their father for many years. Beth had two children by him, and her family was torn apart, she tells Lorna Martin
* Lorna Martin
* The Guardian, Friday 20 March 2009
* Article history
For her 40th birthday, nearly three years ago, Beth Carpenter went on her first holiday. It was a time of many firsts - first time on an aeroplane, first time outside Scotland, first time she'd left her children (her younger sister, Megan, had offered to babysit). It was also the first chance she had ever had to stop and think. As she lay beside her husband on a Spanish beach, she watched children laughing, playing in the sand, running in and out of the sea. She looked at the way they interacted with their parents, and one day noticed a child who didn't belong in the postcard scenes. She didn't have the same carefree air about her. In this little girl, Beth immediately saw herself, and back in the hotel that night, she burst into tears. She told her partner she was just missing her children. But what she was really missing was a childhood. A few months later, on a cold January evening in 2007, Beth Carpenter went to her local police station and began, for the first time, to tell someone the story of her life.
This week the world's media descended on the Austrian city of St Poelten for the trial of Josef Fritzl. The 73-year-old kept his daughter Elisabeth locked up for 24 years in a windowless dungeon, repeatedly raping her and fathering her seven children. He has now pleaded guilty to all the charges against him. The case has provoked worldwide anger, and raised questions about how this could have happened. And because the story broke soon after that of Natascha Kampusch, the Austrian girl abducted and kept captive for more than eight years by Wolfgang Priklopil, some commentators have blamed the crimes on the country's culture of secrecy and failure to come to terms with its past. The implication has been that such an inhumane crime could only happen over there. But in the last few months two "British Fritzl" cases have reached the press. There were no locked dungeons or secret cellars, but the women involved were still treated as prisoners - worse than prisoners - in their own homes and by their own parents.
In November, in Sheffield, a 56-year-old man was given 25 life sentences. He had impregnated his two daughters 19 times in 28 years. Two babies died at birth. Ten of the other pregnancies were miscarried or terminated. The second case involved Beth Carpenter. In January, her 72-year-old father was jailed for 14 years for repeatedly raping her and her two sisters between 1976 and 1993. He is the father of two of Beth's children. They are now grown up, and are trying to make sense of the fact that the man they thought was their grandfather is actually their father.
Beth lives in a small village in northern Scotland. She is 42, but looks younger. She sits on a sofa, hands clasped before her. The wall is adorned with photos of her children. She missed a lot of school and has no educational qualifications, but she is not stupid. She wants people to hear her story, to realise that this is a bigger problem than most people imagine.
Neither of Beth's parents ever worked; her father never wanted to. They depended on benefits and moved around Scotland to avoid arousing suspicion among neighbours, police or social services.
Beth's earliest memory is of being beaten at the age of four. "I remember being thrown on the floor afterwards and breaking my two front teeth. I just shut down. I never fought back. On one occasion, after my dad hit me, my mum took me into another room and she started hitting me. She said, 'This is what you do, you fight back, like this.' We thought this was a normal upbringing. We were told it was."
Beth and her two younger sisters, Megan and Jane, were warned that they would be sent to a psychiatric institution and have their eyes gouged out if they told anyone what was happening. Her father, a keen hunter, once put his rifle to Beth's head and said he could easily pull the trigger and people would think it was an accident. The knife he always carried, ostensibly for fishing, was often held at Beth's throat. "Unlike the poor woman [Elisabeth Fritzl] we were not caged in. We were allowed out, but only just. We were like dogs on a lead. Even at his trial I was afraid he was going to get a gun and shoot me."
Beth was 12 when she was first raped. Her mother had gone into hospital to have another baby, and her father led her to his room. "He said, 'You will need to give me what your mum can't give me.' Afterwards he said it was normal." She shakes her head. Although she wasn't aware of it at the time, the same thing had been happening to Megan for two years (since she was eight), and it started happening to Jane when she was nine.
On one occasion, Beth asked Megan what she did when she went camping with their father. He often took them, one at a time, for overnight trips to local woods. Megan replied that they just fished and made fires. Beth said they each thought they were his only victim and were too afraid to confide in each other. Their mother never raised any objections to these trips because, Beth believes, she would have been glad to be free of him for an evening. "She was a victim as well," she says, "I'm not sticking up for her because she should have protected us. But I think she was psychologically and physically abused by him as well. We all lived in terror of him."
Her father had always been careful about pregnancy until, at 16, Beth announced she had a boyfriend. She thought this would make her father stop, but he was simply less careful and she became pregnant. She assumed it was her boyfriend's child - though they quickly split up - and says she never contemplated the possibility that it could be her father's. She gave birth to her daughter, Katherine, in 1984.
Although she moved into her own flat and was now officially an adult, as far as her father was concerned, she was still his property. He would go to her house two or three times a week and, if no one else was around, he would rape her. "I know people will say, why didn't you just say no," says Beth. "But we were treated as his possessions and because it had happened from such an early age, I think part of me felt that's what I was." His threats escalated - if she told anyone, he said, she'd lose her baby or he'd poison her.
At 22, she became pregnant again. This time she didn't have a boyfriend so there was no doubt about paternity. She contemplated a termination but decided against it because of her religion. In 1990, she had a son, Matthew.
After she became pregnant with Matthew, Beth's father stopped abusing her, and for the next 16 years she tried to build a life. She met her partner and married him in the mid-90s, telling him the same story she would later tell her children: that Katherine's father died in an accident and that she left Matthew's dad because he hit her. They started their own family and she fostered three children, all with special needs, for seven years. "I think I became addicted to having children around," she says. "It kept me so busy and meant I had no time to think about myself." When she did have time to reflect, her thoughts usually turned to suicide.
In 2004, out of the blue, Megan contacted Beth and told her she and Jane had been abused by their father and wanted to go to the police. But instead of feeling relieved that it was out in the open, Beth was worried that Matthew, who was 14 at the time, would be taken into care. She persuaded Megan to try to forget about what had happened. And that is largely what Beth managed to do until her holiday two years later. On that trip she decided to speak up, but her resolve had evaporated when she arrived home. Then came two incidents that cemented her decision to go to the police. The first took place during a visit to her parents' home. (She saw them occasionally to keep up appearances for her husband and children.) Her father mentioned some beautiful young girls who lived across the road and Beth began to worry about their safety.
Around the same time she found out that her son, then 16, had started going out with a 14-year-old girl. She said she "freaked" and started screaming about "paedophiles like his father". Her comment provoked a massive argument with her somewhat bewildered son and husband. Later that night in January 2007, shortly before midnight, she drove to her local police station to report her father for 17 years of physical, emotional and sexual abuse.
She contacted her sisters and told them it was their decision whether they wanted to come forward. Both wanted to give evidence against him. During their father's eight-day trial last December, DNA evidence revealed he was the father of Katherine as well as Matthew. Beth says this information has yet to sink in. "I've felt so numb for so long that, honestly, I don't know how I feel about this." Just after Christmas she told Katherine, but Beth doesn't think she has absorbed it. Her son is receiving treatment for depression.
The case has taken its toll on her marriage and on her sisters' lives. Beth has separated from her husband, but they are on good terms and she is optimistic about a reconciliation. Megan moved to the north of England to start a new life, while Jane, who has also separated from her husband, is trying to find work to support herself and her children.
Although still hurt and angry, Beth says she also feels a sense of relief and freedom from the constant terror. "We are all coping," she says. "Nothing can change what happened to us, but it is a little easier now that we no longer have to deal with it in silence and on our own."
Unlike Fritzl, Beth's father never showed any remorse in court. Nor has her mother expressed any regret, remaining loyal to her husband and making only one comment to Beth during the trial - that she should be ashamed of herself. Faced with DNA evidence, Beth's father was unable to evade justice. But it didn't stop him trying. He admitted having sex with his daughters. But he claimed that it was consensual.
• All names have been changed to protect identities
Hi Wiz and Di
Increasingly I think it becomes clear that what we were told a long time ago, in the Daily Express etc is not what happened to Madeleine.
I think the truth is starting to be told and I hope Goncalo will be a part of that process.
As the above article exemplifies the depravity of some childrens' fathers knows no bounds and the mother can become bound up in this terrorised behaviour and allow things to happen that really never should.
JUSTICE FOR MADDIE!
Viv,
You make some good points. You say.
“I think this is why the PJ knew they were telling some real whoppers about this so called timeline! That means Madeleine had been missing for almost an hour and half before they raised the alarm and they have the audacity to complain that imaginary borders were not closed when in fact the PJ did alert the Spanish Police! I have always thought they did delay reporting this matter to make sure Maddie was already clean away.”
Ok its speculation but I wouldn’t be the least surprised there is a lot of truth in the above especially the PJ knowing the T9 were telling whoopers!
As you say why didn’t Gerry quiz Mrs Fenn – well again I can only assume he knew exactly what happened and thought he could spend his time more affectively by promoting a stranger abduction.
Is it an uban myth - but wasnt there a car rental used by all of the T9 which was blue?
Viv,
If some kind of accident befell Madeleine why was it necessary to conceal the truth?
I currently hold 2 views on this.
1. M ingested recreational drugs. Doctors are well known for drug addiction, of course not all doctors are drug addicts, but I do wonder statistically with so many of the T9 in the medical profession what statistical percentage would apply to this group.
2. Taking into consideration Oldfield and Gerry’s behaviour it is quite possible that prior abuse could have been the need for the cover up if M had an accident of some kind.
This is very interesting.
29 April 2009
Crime without punishment
Madeleine disappeared and the authors of the crime remain at large. To the Portuguese authorities, the case seems to be closed, but without a corpse and without punishment, the people won’t rest and want to make justice on their own. TV 7 Dias felt the revolt in Luz, a “haunted” village where nothing is like it used to be.
by: Maria Plácido, with Carla Bernardino
Never before had a child been so avidly searched for. Madeleine McCann disappeared from apartment 5A at the Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz, Lagos, on the night of the 3rd of May 2007, and those who committed to recover her, on the days that followed the tragedy, now point the finger at the parents, who don’t move and don’t convince anyone, anymore. For the people, Maddie is dead and buried… by the hands of her parents. And this crime without punishment generates a revolt that feeds off the theory of former investigator Gonçalo Amaral.
On the eve of the second anniversary of the disappearance of Gerry and Kate McCann’s eldest daughter, the documentary ‘Maddie – The Truth of the Lie’, which is based on the book by the former coordinator of the searches, is another log for the fire of indignation that burns in Praia da Luz. The documentary, which was broadcast by TVI, was seen by over 2.2 million people. Now, TV 7 Dias visited the scene of the crime and felt the pulsing of revolt that Gonçalo Amaral calls “an uncomfortable feeling of impunity”.
New data to reopen the process
The Portuguese police has closed the case, but neither the people nor the former investigator lower their guard. After the initial silence, the population of Aldeia da Luz starts to talk about the issue without barriers, and the former case coordinator lifts new clues that “will force the reopening of the process”, he announces.
Gonçalo Amaral offers a glimpse of what is coming… “There are things that we need to clarify. It’s important to understand the role of Mr David Payne in this story. He was on holidays with Maddie’s family when the little girl disappeared, and right on the 16th of May, an English doctor told the British authorities that on another occasion, when she and her husband were on the beachside with the McCanns and their friends, that gentleman had made obscene gestures, of a sexual nature, about the girl… That doctor also told that David liked to bathe the little girls… Now, if he was part of the group of adults that went to check on Maddie and her siblings… he was one of the last persons to see her alive. It would be important to find out how much time he spent with the little girl doing what, but information about this lady’s statements only arrived in Portugal in October, at a time when I was not even on the case anymore. This is one of the various important things that were ignored. Someone pretended he didn’t know about this…”
TV 7 Dias went to the crime scene and reveals other important details about the scenario where it all happened. We walked the distance that separates the restaurant where the McCanns were eating and the bedroom where the children were sleeping. And despite having been forbidden from capturing images that document the location, we must stress that from the table where Kate and Gerry ate and drank, it is impossible to see the window to the children’s bedroom.
More: the Tapas Bar restaurant is located at the back side of the apartment and the window, as well as the main door, are located at the front of the building. In order to walk from the table to the bedroom, one needs to walk out of the Ocean Club’s inner patio, walk down a few steps, walk through reception, walk around the apartment block, enter a corridor… a walk that takes six to seven minutes. And all of the lamps on the McCanns’ apartment front had been broken for two days, which means that there was complete darkness. From the place where Maddie’s parents dined, all that one can see is half the living room window, and to get there, one needs to cross the pool area, and then walk along a row of bushes (approximately 70 metres long). Still, anyone who would be looking in, couldn’t see Maddie or her twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, on the opposite end of the house.
According to what TV 7 Dias could establish during this visit to the resort, the scheme of checking the children’s bedrooms hides other curiosities. For example: a person who has followed the case since the first few minutes tells that a list with schedules and names of everyone who told the authorities they had peeked into the children’s bedroom was found… “It’s strange that they wrote that. It looks like a cheat sheet from a person who had been staging a theory…”, the same source says.
Wine and seafood on the following day
In Praia da Luz, opinions about what happened to little Maddie that night are divided, but the vast majority believes that she died, and holds the parents responsible. Almost nobody rises to defend the McCanns. For Maria Bandeirinha, the owner of a rent a car business, the parents’ attitude is incriminating. “Kate passed by my door, laughing her head off, with a friend, days after her daughter disappeared. What mother has a child in an unknown location and feels like laughing? Looking back, I don’t even know how she managed to convince the people that her daughter had been stolen from her… Just compare her with Rui Pedro’s mother. I’m not going any further, because I’m a mother myself and I cannot imagine life for one minute, if I lost my daughter.”
Maria Bandeirinha says that she had photos of the little girl on her shop window, but she tore everything off when she stopped believing the McCanns’ innocence. “The other shop owners did the same. I’m increasingly on the side of Gonçalo Amaral. He knows the truth, and if he says that the little girl is dead, then she is. Kate and Gerry know it as well. Nobody believes this circus anymore.”
From a source close to the Ocean Club, new reports about the day after Madeleine McCann’s disappearance emerge. “After that tragedy, everything that they needed they received for free. The hotel staff did everything they could to offer them some comfort, in the middle of their supposed pain.” And he continues: “When I saw them, the next day, I couldn’t believe it! They had ordered food and drink… they had even ordered wine and seafood! Who is that hungry, after losing a child? Who can think of jogging every morning, like Kate did, or playing tennis with his friends, like Gerry did? Even the family that came down to meet them didn’t forget their bathing suits…” TV 7 Dias tried to confirm these reports with the Ocean Club’s management, but the law of silence reigns at the resort.
Public trial
For Gonçalo Amaral, there will be no peace or quiet until the case is not solved. If there is a crime… there are perpetrators. The former investigator’s restlessness is also the revolt of Luz’s people. The only difference is that the people have made their judgment… Most of the residents want to see Kate and Gerry pay for their daughter’s death.
“It’s only natural for people to feel revolt. Everyone wants and end for this story. That is ultimately the only reason that led so many people to watch the documentary that is based on my book. Impunity has never pleased the people”, Gonçalo recognises.
Paul, the owner of one of the restaurants that are located by the bay of Praia da Luz, is one of the few that still believe in the possibility that Maddie is alive. “This story has been badly told, directed and investigated. For me, the McCanns are guilty, but not over their daughter’s death. They are guilty over the little girl’s abduction, because they offered the criminals the possibility of carrying it out… Children can’t be left alone at home! For me, she is alive, she was abducted and sold.”
But almost everyone thinks differently. The same person who accompanied the McCanns, two years ago, now concludes: “I believe that they are guilty. I was with them and I saw the theatre that they put on… They were always looking good fine and only when journalists approached, they would hang their heads low. At the beginning, people believed them, they suffered with their loss and felt solidarity, but presently, if they could, they would take justice into their own hands. Only a while ago, when Gerry came here, he was jeered at on the street and if people could, they would have beaten him up.” Maria Bandeirinha adds: “Sometimes, popular justice would be a good thing. It would be swifter and easier. Nobody believe a word they say anymore. They still have some support in church, but the priests also know very well what happened that night.”
The McCanns’ documentary
Gonçalo Amaral’s documentary is still widely present, but a reply is on the way. In early April, Maddie’s father returned to the Ocean Club with Channel 4’s cameras, for a detailed reconstruction of his version of events on the night of May 3, 2007. “He didn’t stay at the Ocean Club, I don’t know where he slept, and he could hardly set foot on the street, because people wanted to give him a beating… Then he had some ridiculous letters distributed, which were all over the place, shredded, on the next day”, another resident of Luz told us, showing us a sample of the letter. Concerning the documentary, “it is most likely to be a pack of lies”. Gonçalo Amaral agrees: “I don’t care about the documentary. It’s all lies!”
The programme will be broadcast on the 7th of May in the United Kingdom, and Portuguese stations fight to acquire it. “At the moment, the way that negotiations are, TVI is up front to get it”, a source tells us. But the British couple’s spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, asserts TV 7 Dias: “The deal is about to be closed and we think that SIC will broadcast the documentary that was recorded by Gerry. He is not at all happy about TVI broadcasting Gonçalo Amaral’s documentary, which is full of errors and mistakes, and therefore he isn’t interested in the documentary, which was recorded in Portugal, being broadcast by TVI”, states the former aide to the British prime minister, Gordon Brown.
What is certain is that on the brink of the second anniversary of Maddie’s disappearance, the waters are agitated with two explosive documentaries, Gerry’s return to the crime scene and the news about Kate’s physical and emotional frailty. The end of this case still seems far away.
'The Thruth of The Lie' in more than 15 countries
Marta Vaz de Sousa, the head of Valentim de Carvalho Multimédia, took the documentary ‘Maddie – The Truth of the Lie’, that TVI broadcast, to MIP, in Cannes, and is preparing its sales. “There are more than 15 countries interested in it, business deals that could be closed within a week.” But she does not comment on whether it will reach the United Kingdom. Clarence Mitchell, on the other hand, reacts and leaves a warning. “I doubt that anyone around here is interested in watching it and the station that broadcasts it will be sued by our lawyers!”
source: TV 7 Dias, 29.04.2009 , paper edition
by astro
Thanks Joana & astro.
Is GA pointing the finger at someone in LP pretending he did not know about the statements referring to Gerry & David's gestures?
I am sure the priests are well aware of what went on it's a pity they cannot talk.
I for one Clarance would be more than interested to see GA's reconstruction.
Hiya Di,
Thanks for that and it is really interesting. I get the impression that Goncalo has a powerful influence of public opinion in PDL and because he says Maddie died that is the consensus, but see one man thinks a similar theory to me.
Regardless of that it is clear that people have seen with their own eyes the reaction of Kate and Gerry which was so unnatural, in particularly behaving without showing any signs of distress. I was amazed to see they ordered wine and seafood the next day. What normal parent would care to eat and drink!
I must say although it is a little anti social and shame on me being an ex probation officer I had to smile when I read people just wanted to beat Gerry up, that is understandable to a nation of people who love children and traditionally treat them in an inclusive way.
But from the whole article, Di, this is what really caught my eye!!!
And all of the lamps on the McCanns’ apartment front had been broken for two days
Oh Di, I missed your other point, I think Goncalo is particularly pointing the finger at Rebelo indicating he pretended he did not see this report about Payne/Gerry. Of course he is having a dig at LP too for not sending the report until they were sure Goncalo was off the case on 24/10. I think that has to do with the confidentiality issue and that Goncalo was not seeing what happened quite the way other officers were seeing it. He was adamant they killed Madeleine I believe and not prepared to open his mind to other possibilities. Only now is he talking about David Payne but we should remember that information was available to Goncalo several months before he made this latest documentary.
Putting things in a charitable way, maybe he made the documentary to raise cash to fund a proper investigation. I have the usual concerns about him raising the issue of Payne, but who knows it may push British authorities along a little! Unfortunately I still feel they may be stuck in knowing what probably happened but lacking clear evidence to prove it in court. I still think the links with Spanish investigators to M3 etc will be very important in mounting an action against them. Perhaps links to many offenders as well, and I still have grave doubts about Mr DG Man! Mr Corner the film man too, among others! Who took those pictures of Maddie that I find so utterly distasteful and where she looks so miserable and sad.
xx
Hi Viv
Thanks for pointing out GA is referring to Rebelo.
I agree very interesting about the broken lights which creates four points.
JT must have night vision.
The lights could have been faulty, hopefully the pj checked this out with MW.
The lights were tampered with by the tapas so they were able to move around unseen.
Or the abductor tampered with the lights in preperation for his planned abduction.
The easiest one would be to believe the lights were faulty, thus making JT's sighting impossible. How could she have described bundleman right down to the colour of his shoes and seen the childs pjs were pink. It does not make sense.
Five News Report by Jason Farrell
Five's Crime Correspondent and is known for his investigations.
Madeleine poster vandalised
Thursday, 30 April 2009
It is a town that wants to forget. I have been coming to Praia da Luz long enough to know that's how some locals feel. But what surprised me this time is how bitter they have become.
Many are outraged that Gerry returned here this month to film a reconstruction of the events leading to Madeleine's disappearance.
A giant Maddy poster on the outskirts of town has been vandalised. Other smaller posters Gerry put up around the town have been taken down.
When pressed, people accept that any parent would do anything to find their missing child, but - and there is nearly always a but - they say the McCanns were negligent for leaving Madeleine alone in her apartment. And many still believe the discredited police theories that led to Kate and Gerry being named as suspects.
"We have done nothing wrong but our livelihoods are at stake, our town has been destroyed," one bartender told me.
Indeed business is suffering. It is evident in the quiet restuarants and stacked beach chairs. The global economic downturn is largely to blame. But the story of Madeleine is a factor.
"It's understandable," says Father Haynes Hubbard. "People don't like to be reminded. It's understandable but it's not right." Father Hubbard, who prayed with Kate McCann in the first months of Madeleine's disappearance, says Madeleine is always in his prayers.
He and many of his congregation refuse to forget, and like Kate and Gerry, refuse to give up hope.
Di,
You mentioned the priests earlier. I note from 5’s report that Father Hubbard says Madeleine is always in his prayers I note he omits the parents.
Wizard
Very true you would think he would also be thinking of Madeleines parents.
Were all the police theories discredited?
Off for the evening
See you tomorrow.
Hi, just off to watch some TV but thought I would let you know the Oprah interview with the McCanns can be viewed on the 4th May on www.oprah.com
That’s if you can stomach it.
Joana Morais site has Amaral's documentary with full english translation. Very considered and McCann's need to pray it is not seen on British TV. Kate, should watch it and decide whether she changes her mind about answering those police questions.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/
di, I was thinking in terms of the abductor damaged the lights ready to remove Maddie and you know who I think the abductor was, Gerry, Payne or O'Brien.
I do think the death in apt theory has been discredited because the forensic results did not back that conclusion and there just is no other evidence. Grime himself does not back those conclusions in his rogatory interview and he can quite clearly be heard saying on the video whilst in the Mc apt: "well I have done the best I can". Merely saying this could have happened as Amaral does is not evidence!
I think the police knew the Mcs were involved and needed to go through every possible scenario which would obviously include them actually killing Madeleine in the apt but that scenario was just not backed up by any evidence. I do not think Goncalo is being helpful in the way that he has rigidly stuck to insisting that is somehow what happened because someone who is a trained senior police officer with a law degree ought to know that you just cannot make such an allegation when there is no evidence to back it up. All the campaigns against the Mcs IMO would better just sticking to the evidence against them, the real evidence as demonstrating their involvement in Maddie's disappearance without coming up with a set scenario that is not backed by that evidence and therefore fatally flawed.
I have a feeling some of this is to do with Goncalo's pride and not being willing to accept that he has been wrong to just keep pushing his theory. He would have been far more credible if she had simply stuck to the evidence we do have e.g. the lies about shutters being jemmied, their timelines not according with other independant witnesses and the conduct generally of the Mcs, having those old photos immediately available to hand to the GNR is another good one. But if Goncalo stressed this is would obviously negate his "accident" theory. I think it is more than obvious this was not an accident. Gerry is a cold and calculating man who has quite literally left no stone unturned to further his schemes.
Di, I have found the witness statement where she apparently hears Gerry begging please do not hurt her. As you will see this took place on 7 May, four days later. If she is telling the truth that obviously means Maddie was still alive at that point and must have been removed from the apt alive.
Processos
Volume XV,
Pages 3924 to 3927—Witness statement 2007.11.21 (in English)
Statement of Carolyn Kish
Statement date 21.11.07
I am a British national, and I live in a house in the village in Portugal having lived there for 9 years.
I used to live in Worcester and my family still live there.
I came back to UK on 23rd April 07 to Coventry. I believe with Fly Thomson and was traveling alone.
I flew back with the same airline on 30th April from Coventry to Faro.
I had booked my travel arrangements through a company in Lagos. Part of the package included collecting me from faro and taking me home.
I didn't see any news as my T.V. was not working.
On the afternoon of Monday 7.5.07 I was in Lagos as I needed to do some banking. My car is xxxx coloured and has an English Registration.
Near to the main road in Lagos is a pedestrian area. There are parking spaces at the side and I parked in one of those spaces. There are ATMS near there and I went to the one on the left hand. I don't know what the bank is called but it is about 3 doors away from the Banco Espirito Santos.
On walking towards the ATM I was aware of a man in the pedestrian area. He was holding something to his ear which I thought might be a Dictaphone but later assumed it was a mobile phone.
I noticed him as he was talking very loudly. I remember him saying 'PLEASE DO NOT HURT MADELEINE' There was a lot of other speech, but I can only remember that phrase.
I think he had a notebook in his left hand and I think he was holding the phone in his right hand. The notebook seemed to be the type that journalists use. He seemed very upset and the way he was acting and with the notebook I assumed he was an actor or journalist.
It was very quiet and no-one else was around.
He was pacing up and down, being 10 metres away from me at the furthest, and the closest he was just a few feet away as he walked past me at the back while I was using the ATM.
I would describe him as a white male about 5.6” with pale mousey coloured hair. It think he was wearing an overcoat or raincoat of dark coloured with grey being the main colour I remember. I thought he was talking with a slight Irish accent.
I withdrew 150 euros at the bank and I also withdraw some cash from my fathers account. I was at the machine for a couple of minutes and when I left the man was still there walking and pacing up and down. I thought to myself 'who's Madeleine'. When I got back into my car the man was still there as I drove away.
I had a lot of chances to see the man's face during that time, and I had never seen him before.
The account the card services is xxxxxxxxxxxxxx in my name at the xxxxx branch. The sort code xxxxxxxx and the account no. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. The card has now been replaced with another sand I don't have the old card number.
I was then going to xxxxxx (a two minute drive away. I was going to do some insurance paperwork.
I have been a member of this bank for many years and am known by staff there. There were 3 staff working and I know that lunch is between 1pm and 2pm, so I think my visit was before that. One of the staff was xxxxx, one was xxx. I was talking to the one of the staff xxxxx. She has a daughter called xxxxx and she always chats when I visit.
She asked me if I heard about the missing English girl. I said I hadn't seen any news. She told me the missing child was called Madeleine and had gone missing from a resort along the coast. I told her that the man I had just heard must have been the father of the child. I only assumed this by logic and from the conversation AFTER the fact.
In relation to the identity of the man I saw I thought initially that he must be the father based on what he said and what the staff had said about the missing girl.
I went to the third local bank to do some more banking.
I don't usually watch or follow news. But months after this saw a news report on the local TV station at home. The footage showed the father of the missing girl. At that point I realised it was the man I had seen on the occasion above. I had not seen this picture before, but I am as sure as can be that he is the person.
I have been asked whether I have made this assumption but I do not believe I have. I am 99.99% sure if shown his photograph with lots of others I would have picked him out as the man.
I have heard GM on t.v. And my interpretation of his accent is that it's slight Scottish or Irish.
I am more interested in the case and have been following it since this event.
In September 2007, I was at a health club of xxxx. There was a kid's party.
Some of the children were walking off and I was worried because of what happened to Madeleine. I kept a watch on them returning them to the group when they walked off. There was also a large t.v. Which showed news about the case. I started talking about it to a man known as xxxxxx I told him what I had seen previously in Lagos. When I told him he said I should go to the police.
I asked him to come with me and he did. We went to the local station, they referred me to the GNR. We went there and they gave an email address for the PJ at Portimao. He then sent them an email and an officer made contact with me.
In relation to the times and dates I can add the following.
I keep a diary which I record a lot of detail in, in particular appointments and finance matters. It is kept up to date and I am not aware of any errors. It shows that 150 euros was withdrawn on 7th may, to cover my phone bill.
I authorise the British or Portuguese police to make any enquiries in relation to these financial transactions.
When I first spoke to the British police about this, I was under the impression that the events happened on the 2nd May. This was before the girl went missing and therefore not correct. I examined my bank statements and found the withdrawal from the ATM, my visit to sort out my insurance and the deposit to the third bank took place in the afternoon of 7th May. My bank have advised me that the cash withdrawal took place at 2.26pm.
Report this post
Processos
Vol XV
Pages 3909-3910
Original Message
From: ******
To: dic.portimao@pj.pt
Sent: Saturday 08, 2007, 9:00PM
Subject : Madeleine Cainn (sic) – Observation – IMPORTANT & URGENT
Dir (sic) Sir or Madame,
We are writing to you with respect to the aforementioned case.
Please let me introduce myself. I am the owner/manager of Quinta do Martinhal (website) a large hotel resort development in Sagres.
Today we hosted a birthday party at Jardin das Dunas, a private children and pool club at Lagos. At the end of the event I got involved in a conversation with Caroline Kish, a British national in her early 30s when we both watched the news on TV while drinking a coffee at the bar.
After a few minutes of talking to her, I realised that she has made an observation with respect to the Madeleine case that she needs to reported (sic) to PJ asap.
Carolyn Kish told me the following:
- she saw Mr McCann at the avenida of Lagos when she tried to withdrew (sic) money from the cash machine next to the Banif outlet.
- Mr McCann looked very upset and said a few time the following “Don’t hurt Madeleine”.
- Carolyn felt this was a very bizar (sic) situation but thought this men (sic) must be an actor or a journalist as he repeted (sic) again and again this sentence.
- Carolyn then walked to the Banco Espiritu Santo outlet a few 100 meters. Carolyn is a customer of BES for many, many years and the staff know her well at the bank.
- The bank staff asked that they whether she heard the latest (sic).The bank staff told her about Madeleine going missing and Carolyn immediately made the connection to the man she saw in front of the cash machine. She told the bank staff that she must have seen Mr McCann just a few minutes ago. Pictures of Mr McCann on TV confirmed this later.
- I understand that Carolyn did not report the above observation till today as she did not think that it makes sense to report an observation on the parents of Madeleine. However, latest development of the case seem to go in another direction.
Please contact me on ******* if you feel the aforementioned information needs to be followed up. I promised Carolyn to be with her if you decide to meet her. Carolyn does not speak Portuguese and seem to be a little scared of the police (as many people are).
I would be most grateful if you could confirm receipt of this email.
Thanking you
Best regards
*******
Wiz and all, getting back to the issue of whether or not Russell had a car and whether that could have been the one the Exec Chef saw parked up, I note in her initial interview below Jane twice refers to drive and drove a number of times which I have starred. So it would seem that Russell did have a vehicle which is very ominous! I thought I had read somewhere the PJ wanted to seize/inspect his car! However, on looking again the second time she says drive is in relation to the McCanns taking their kids to the creche and she had just said they had trouble walking with them. So alas maybe it is just a transcription error?
I also noted that the two initial statements of Kate and Gerry are almost word for word identical which is absolutely impossible to do when giving a witness statement. Witnesses will always tell things and remember and describe things in their own individual way unless they got their heads together.
Gerry says he first went to Portugal in 1994. Fiona states that Dave first went to Portugal 11 years previously which would make it 1996. I smell a bit of a rat here. You may have noticed on 3 As people are picking up that perhaps Gerry and Payne have been known to each other for far longer than they care to admit!
Read all the TAPAS 4 May statements here
http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24983
Jane Tanner
I have been in Portugal since last Saturday, April 28th 2007, at the Ocean Club tourist resort, with my partner (Russell O'Brien), my two children and three couples of friends (Gerald McCann, Kate Healy, Matthew Oldfield, Rachael Manpilly, David and Fiona Payne as well as Fiona Payne's mother, Diane Webster). We are with our children, **** O'Brien, aged 3 years and **** O'Brien, aged one year.
The other couples have also come with their children, ***** Oldfield, aged one year (daughter of Matthew Oldfield and Rachael Manpilly), **** Payne, aged two years and ******* Payne, aged eleven months (children of David and Fiona Payne). The twins, Sean and Amélie McCann, aged two years and Madeleine Beth McCann who will celebrate her birthday during the holiday week. (Children of Gerald McCann and Kate Healy)
The interviewee and her partner are on holiday with the other couples, having organised the trip from England, where they are friends. They traveled with the, "Mark Warner," agency. All the couples have individual apartments in the same complex, with their respective children.
Since Saturday, the habit has been to get up around 7.30/8am, then to have breakfast in a restaurant near the apartment, called the, "Millennium," (6) towards 9am, to *****drive***** the children to the, "Kids Club." (2)(4)(5), according to the ages of the children. Only Gerry and Kate have breakfast in their apartment due to the fact that they have three children and it is complicated walking with the three at the same time. Then, they too ****drive*** their children to the, "Kids Club."
The Kid's Club
**** O'Brien and Madeleine McCann are left in a place at the reception. (4) Responsible for them is an English lady named Cat Baker. Apart from her, there are three or four people to look after the children. (She no longer remembers the names apart from one: Emma Wilding). They do several activities like going to the indoor swimming pool in the complex, going to the tennis court which is outside near the, "Tapas," restaurant (3), going to the beach (outside), painting and going for walks in the complex.
***** Oldfield, ****O'Brien, **** Payne, Amélie and Sean McCann are left at a third place (2) near the, "Tapas," restaurant. The supervisor for ***** and **** was an English citizen named Leanne Wagstaff. As for ****, Amélie and Sean, the supervisor would be, but not certain, Stacey Portz. The activities were identical to the other places, outside and inside the complex.
Towards 12.30, they go to fetch their children from the respective rooms at the, "Kids Club," which close for lunch. Lunch was sometimes taken all together in the apartment of one of the couples.
Towards 2.30, the "Kids Club" rooms open and only Madeleine, Amélie, Sean and **** go back. The others stay with their respective parents.
03 mai 2007
Until yesterday, May 3rd, the interviewee has not, to her knowledge, noticed anything strange of suspicious concerning the group of friends or the children. Yesterday, the interviewee wasn't at breakfast because she had a tennis lesson scheduled for 9am. It was her partner who went with their children after breakfast to fetch **** ****** and ******drove**** them all to the "Kids Club."
**** must have been unwell because she didn't go to the "Kids Club" that day. Kate Healy and Diane Webster came and waited 30 minutes for the tennis lesson to finish at 9.30am. She did not know where the McCann children had breakfast but they were at the "Kids Club" where she supposed that Gerry, their father, had dropped them off. During the tennis lesson (8), Kate Healy behaved normally.
After the lesson, the interviewee and her partner, O'Brien, went with their daughter **** to the beach. (7) They stayed there until 12.20. Then they had been to fetch **** from the "Kids Club" The interviewee does not know what Kate did after leaving the tennis court (8) at around 10am, but she knows that Gerald McCann had a tennis lesson (8) between 10.10 and 11.10.
The interviewee did not notice if Madeleine was still at the "Kids Club" when they had been to fetch ****. They went to have lunch in their apartment with their two children together with Matthew Oldfield, Rachael Manpilly and their daughter *****. They had lunch from 12.45 to 1.45 then, at around 2pm, the interviewee again played tennis (8) but with Rachael Manpilly this time. The interviewee remembers that while she was playing tennis, (8) she saw Kate Healy and Gerald mcCann with their three children in the play area next to the court. Kate waved to her. The mcCann family stayed in that play area until 2.40 when they *****drove***** their children to the "Kids Club".
After finishing playing tennis (8) at around 2.45, the interviewee went back to her apartment (1) where she stayed with her daughter ****. Her husband and Matthew Oldfield went sailing.
Tennis
At 3.45, the interviewee went to the Praia beach (7) with her daughter, ****, Rachael Manpilly, Diane Webster, Fiona Payne, *** Payne and ***** Payne. Her husband Russell O'Brien was back from his boat trip and he went to fetch **** from the "Kids Club." They joined the group at the beach (7)until they went back at around 6.10/6.15. On the way to the beach, the group of friends mentioned above, saw Gerald McCann and Kate Healy having an individual tennis lesson. The children were not with them. At around 5.15pm, they saw Kate Healy jogging along the beach. (7)
Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield and David Payne left the beach (7) a little earlier to go to the tennis court for men's tennis night. When the group came back from the beach (7) at around 6.20pm, they went past the tennis court and they saw all the men, including Gerald McCann, on the court. (8) They stayed to talk to them for around 20 to 30 minutes. Gerald McCann behaved normally. The interviewee supposed that Kate was at the apartment (1) putting the children to bed. Around 7pm, they went to their own apartments (1) with the children. The interviewee bathed her two daughters, read them a story to send them to sleep. As **** was unwell and had difficulty going to sleep, she stayed with her father who, meantime, had returned. The interviewee went to dinner at the, "Tapas," restaurant at around 8.30pm.
"Tapas" restaurant.
When she arrived at the restaurant, several adult members of the group were already there, without children, who were, in theory, asleep.
Around 9pm, her husband arrived at the restaurant. He had succeeded in getting **** to sleep. Because of the late arrival of David Payne, Fiona Payne and Diane Webster, the meal booked for 8.30pm, did not start until 9pm, when the Payne family arrived. Usually, every 15 minutes one person from each apartment went to the respective rooms (1) to make sure everything was OK. During dinner, everything went well. Everybody was in a good mood.
The interviewee recall that, around 9.10pm, Gerald McCann left the restaurant (3) to go to the apartment to see the children. Five minutes later the interviewee left, in her turn, to go to her own apartment to check on her children. She saw Gerald McCann talking to a British citizen named Jez. They got to know each other during the holiday and played tennis together. She went past them knowing that Gerald McCann had already checked the children in the apartment.
The suspicious man.
However, she spotted a man (*) who was going along at a fair speed with a child in his arms (*) with the child in pyjamas without a blanket, which attracted her attention. The interviewee only saw the man from the side with the child in his arms. She noticed this person exactly at the moment when she walked past Gerald and Jez. That person was coming out of the path at the end of the apartment block (1) where they are staying. The man quickly crossed the intersection. The entrance to the building where the apartments are is the exact place where she saw the man. After checking on her children, the interviewee went back to the "tapas." On her way back, Gerald McCann was no longer in the road where she had seen him talking. On her arrival at the restaurant (3) Gerald McCann was with his wife Kate Healy.
15 to 20 minutes later, Matthew Oldfield and her husband, Russell O'Brien, left to go and see the children. As their daughter **** wasn't well, and she was crying, Russell stayed in the room. Matthew checked the children then those of Gerald and Kate. According to him, he saw the twins but he did not succeed in seeing Madeleine. But as he did not hear any noise, he thought everything was OK and went back to the restaurant. Matthew informed the interviewee that Russell was staying in the room. (1) After quickly eating the main course, the worried interviewee went to take her husband's place in the apartment (1) so that the latter could eat.
While she was in the room, around 10/10.15, she heard Kate Healy and Fiona Payne shouting that Madeleine had disappeared. She did not know whether it was Kate who discovered the disappearance because she wasn't at the restaurant (3) at that moment. Every evening was like this, it was normal. In turn they left the table and went to check on the children. Madeleine Beth McCann was a sensible child, very loving, very active and fun. She liked to play. She was intelligent and the interviewee does not believe that if a stranger approached her that she would not shout. During their conversation she did not recall Kate having reported that Madeleine slept badly or that she caused any problems.
Description of the tourist complex.
The Ocean Club tourist complex comprises a wide area, of which the plan is attached. In this plan the most important places for the research are marked numerically, such as:
1 - The apartments where all the couples stayed. This block has 3 or 4 levels with around 6 apartments at each level for a total of between 20 and 30 apartments.
2 - "Kids Club" used by ******, ****. ***, Amélie and Sean.
3 - "Tapas" restaurant.
4 - "Kids Club" used by **** and Madeleine.
5 - "Kids Club" used by *****
6 - "Millennium." restaurant.
7 - Praia beach.
8 - Tennis courts.
Jane Tanner's description of the individual:
(*) Brown male between 35 and 40, slim, around 1.70m. Very dark hair, thick, long at the neck. (Noticed when the person was seen from the back). He was wearing golden beige cloth trousers (linen type) with a "Duffy" type coat (but not very thick). He was wearing black shoes, of a conventional style and was walking quickly. He was carrying a sleeping child in his arms across his chest. By his manner, the man gave her the impression that he wasn't a tourist.
(**) Concerning the child, who seemed to be asleep, she only saw the legs. The child seemed to be bigger than a baby. It had no shoes on, was dressed in cotton light-coloured pyjamas (perhaps pink or white) It is uncertain, but the interviewee has the feeling that she saw a design on the pyjamas like flowers, but is not certain about it.
Concerning these details, the interviewee states not having known what Madeleine was wearing when she disappeared. She has not spoken to anyone about this. Concerning the man, she has only mentioned it to Gerald, but without going into details and with the police. The interviewee has been invited to draw a sketch which we attach to this document. Questioned, she stated probably being able to identify the person that she saw if she saw him in profile and at the place where she saw him.
After reading, goes on and signs.
Jane Tanner
I have been in Portugal since last Saturday, April 28th 2007, at the Ocean Club tourist resort, with my partner (Russell O'Brien), my two children and three couples of friends (Gerald McCann, Kate Healy, Matthew Oldfield, Rachael Manpilly, David and Fiona Payne as well as Fiona Payne's mother, Diane Webster). We are with our children, **** O'Brien, aged 3 years and **** O'Brien, aged one year.
The other couples have also come with their children, ***** Oldfield, aged one year (daughter of Matthew Oldfield and Rachael Manpilly), **** Payne, aged two years and ******* Payne, aged eleven months (children of David and Fiona Payne). The twins, Sean and Amélie McCann, aged two years and Madeleine Beth McCann who will celebrate her birthday during the holiday week. (Children of Gerald McCann and Kate Healy)
The interviewee and her partner are on holiday with the other couples, having organised the trip from England, where they are friends. They traveled with the, "Mark Warner," agency. All the couples have individual apartments in the same complex, with their respective children.
Since Saturday, the habit has been to get up around 7.30/8am, then to have breakfast in a restaurant near the apartment, called the, "Millennium," (6) towards 9am, to drive the children to the, "Kids Club." (2)(4)(5), according to the ages of the children. Only Gerry and Kate have breakfast in their apartment due to the fact that they have three children and it is complicated walking with the three at the same time. Then, they too drive their children to the, "Kids Club."
The Kid's Club
**** O'Brien and Madeleine McCann are left in a place at the reception. (4) Responsible for them is an English lady named Cat Baker. Apart from her, there are three or four people to look after the children. (She no longer remembers the names apart from one: Emma Wilding). They do several activities like going to the indoor swimming pool in the complex, going to the tennis court which is outside near the, "Tapas," restaurant (3), going to the beach (outside), painting and going for walks in the complex.
***** Oldfield, ****O'Brien, **** Payne, Amélie and Sean McCann are left at a third place (2) near the, "Tapas," restaurant. The supervisor for ***** and **** was an English citizen named Leanne Wagstaff. As for ****, Amélie and Sean, the supervisor would be, but not certain, Stacey Portz. The activities were identical to the other places, outside and inside the complex.
Towards 12.30, they go to fetch their children from the respective rooms at the, "Kids Club," which close for lunch. Lunch was sometimes taken all together in the apartment of one of the couples.
Towards 2.30, the "Kids Club" rooms open and only Madeleine, Amélie, Sean and **** go back. The others stay with their respective parents.
03 mai 2007
Until yesterday, May 3rd, the interviewee has not, to her knowledge, noticed anything strange of suspicious concerning the group of friends or the children. Yesterday, the interviewee wasn't at breakfast because she had a tennis lesson scheduled for 9am. It was her partner who went with their children after breakfast to fetch **** ****** and drove them all to the "Kids Club."
**** must have been unwell because she didn't go to the "Kids Club" that day. Kate Healy and Diane Webster came and waited 30 minutes for the tennis lesson to finish at 9.30am. She did not know where the McCann children had breakfast but they were at the "Kids Club" where she supposed that Gerry, their father, had dropped them off. During the tennis lesson (8), Kate Healy behaved normally.
After the lesson, the interviewee and her partner, O'Brien, went with their daughter **** to the beach. (7) They stayed there until 12.20. Then they had been to fetch **** from the "Kids Club" The interviewee does not know what Kate did after leaving the tennis court (8) at around 10am, but she knows that Gerald McCann had a tennis lesson (8) between 10.10 and 11.10.
The interviewee did not notice if Madeleine was still at the "Kids Club" when they had been to fetch ****. They went to have lunch in their apartment with their two children together with Matthew Oldfield, Rachael Manpilly and their daughter *****. They had lunch from 12.45 to 1.45 then, at around 2pm, the interviewee again played tennis (8) but with Rachael Manpilly this time. The interviewee remembers that while she was playing tennis, (8) she saw Kate Healy and Gerald mcCann with their three children in the play area next to the court. Kate waved to her. The mcCann family stayed in that play area until 2.40 when they drove their children to the "Kids Club".
After finishing playing tennis (8) at around 2.45, the interviewee went back to her apartment (1) where she stayed with her daughter ****. Her husband and Matthew Oldfield went sailing.
Tennis
At 3.45, the interviewee went to the Praia beach (7) with her daughter, ****, Rachael Manpilly, Diane Webster, Fiona Payne, *** Payne and ***** Payne. Her husband Russell O'Brien was back from his boat trip and he went to fetch **** from the "Kids Club." They joined the group at the beach (7)until they went back at around 6.10/6.15. On the way to the beach, the group of friends mentioned above, saw Gerald McCann and Kate Healy having an individual tennis lesson. The children were not with them. At around 5.15pm, they saw Kate Healy jogging along the beach. (7)
Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield and David Payne left the beach (7) a little earlier to go to the tennis court for men's tennis night. When the group came back from the beach (7) at around 6.20pm, they went past the tennis court and they saw all the men, including Gerald McCann, on the court. (8) They stayed to talk to them for around 20 to 30 minutes. Gerald McCann behaved normally. The interviewee supposed that Kate was at the apartment (1) putting the children to bed. Around 7pm, they went to their own apartments (1) with the children. The interviewee bathed her two daughters, read them a story to send them to sleep. As **** was unwell and had difficulty going to sleep, she stayed with her father who, meantime, had returned. The interviewee went to dinner at the, "Tapas," restaurant at around 8.30pm.
"Tapas" restaurant.
When she arrived at the restaurant, several adult members of the group were already there, without children, who were, in theory, asleep.
Around 9pm, her husband arrived at the restaurant. He had succeeded in getting **** to sleep. Because of the late arrival of David Payne, Fiona Payne and Diane Webster, the meal booked for 8.30pm, did not start until 9pm, when the Payne family arrived. Usually, every 15 minutes one person from each apartment went to the respective rooms (1) to make sure everything was OK. During dinner, everything went well. Everybody was in a good mood.
The interviewee recall that, around 9.10pm, Gerald McCann left the restaurant (3) to go to the apartment to see the children. Five minutes later the interviewee left, in her turn, to go to her own apartment to check on her children. She saw Gerald McCann talking to a British citizen named Jez. They got to know each other during the holiday and played tennis together. She went past them knowing that Gerald McCann had already checked the children in the apartment.
The suspicious man.
However, she spotted a man (*) who was going along at a fair speed with a child in his arms (*) with the child in pyjamas without a blanket, which attracted her attention. The interviewee only saw the man from the side with the child in his arms. She noticed this person exactly at the moment when she walked past Gerald and Jez. That person was coming out of the path at the end of the apartment block (1) where they are staying. The man quickly crossed the intersection. The entrance to the building where the apartments are is the exact place where she saw the man. After checking on her children, the interviewee went back to the "tapas." On her way back, Gerald McCann was no longer in the road where she had seen him talking. On her arrival at the restaurant (3) Gerald McCann was with his wife Kate Healy.
15 to 20 minutes later, Matthew Oldfield and her husband, Russell O'Brien, left to go and see the children. As their daughter **** wasn't well, and she was crying, Russell stayed in the room. Matthew checked the children then those of Gerald and Kate. According to him, he saw the twins but he did not succeed in seeing Madeleine. But as he did not hear any noise, he thought everything was OK and went back to the restaurant. Matthew informed the interviewee that Russell was staying in the room. (1) After quickly eating the main course, the worried interviewee went to take her husband's place in the apartment (1) so that the latter could eat.
While she was in the room, around 10/10.15, she heard Kate Healy and Fiona Payne shouting that Madeleine had disappeared. She did not know whether it was Kate who discovered the disappearance because she wasn't at the restaurant (3) at that moment. Every evening was like this, it was normal. In turn they left the table and went to check on the children. Madeleine Beth McCann was a sensible child, very loving, very active and fun. She liked to play. She was intelligent and the interviewee does not believe that if a stranger approached her that she would not shout. During their conversation she did not recall Kate having reported that Madeleine slept badly or that she caused any problems.
Description of the tourist complex.
The Ocean Club tourist complex comprises a wide area, of which the plan is attached. In this plan the most important places for the research are marked numerically, such as:
1 - The apartments where all the couples stayed. This block has 3 or 4 levels with around 6 apartments at each level for a total of between 20 and 30 apartments.
2 - "Kids Club" used by ******, ****. ***, Amélie and Sean.
3 - "Tapas" restaurant.
4 - "Kids Club" used by **** and Madeleine.
5 - "Kids Club" used by *****
6 - "Millennium." restaurant.
7 - Praia beach.
8 - Tennis courts.
Jane Tanner's description of the individual:
(*) Brown male between 35 and 40, slim, around 1.70m. Very dark hair, thick, long at the neck. (Noticed when the person was seen from the back). He was wearing golden beige cloth trousers (linen type) with a "Duffy" type coat (but not very thick). He was wearing black shoes, of a conventional style and was walking quickly. He was carrying a sleeping child in his arms across his chest. By his manner, the man gave her the impression that he wasn't a tourist.
(**) Concerning the child, who seemed to be asleep, she only saw the legs. The child seemed to be bigger than a baby. It had no shoes on, was dressed in cotton light-coloured pyjamas (perhaps pink or white) It is uncertain, but the interviewee has the feeling that she saw a design on the pyjamas like flowers, but is not certain about it.
Concerning these details, the interviewee states not having known what Madeleine was wearing when she disappeared. She has not spoken to anyone about this. Concerning the man, she has only mentioned it to Gerald, but without going into details and with the police. The interviewee has been invited to draw a sketch which we attach to this document. Questioned, she stated probably being able to identify the person that she saw if she saw him in profile and at the place where she saw him.
After reading, goes on and signs.
Gerry constantly insisted on delivering to Ricardo Paiva, the same officer who ultimately received the email and GASPAR statement about the conduct of Gerry and Payne
"letters and emails from psychics and mediums"
I am sure we can all remember how keen "rosiepops" was on such rubbish "she" could just feel it and also wanted to tell us about the tunnels where she felt the police were keeping Madeleine.
You know sometimes I do not think I am being fair in saying it is Kate that has the mental health problem! Maybe Gerry has a dual diagnosis, both mental health and personality disorder. Then there is also the issue of his substance misuse, not just alcohol, I would say also cocaine which can make people have some very strange "dreams and visions". He was adamant the police were "wasting their time in looking at him and Kate". OH, I really don't think so Gerry!
xx
April 29, 2009
Pages 2533/2534 of the Process
NUIPC: 201/07.0GALGS
Date: 03.09.2007
Service information
To: Criminal Investigation Coordinator, Lic. Gonçalo Amaral
From: Ricardo Paiva, Inspector
Subject: Disappearance of Madeleine McCann
During the course of the investigation that is ongoing within the abovementioned inquiry, the signatory has carried out several personal contacts with the couple Kate and Gerald McCann, that derive from the task that I have been assigned with, of serving as the element of communication between the Police and the McCann couple.
In this context, the signatory has observed several “strange” behaviours by the couple, who gradually reacted in a very negative manner towards the increasing investigative activity that has been carried out by this police force, especially when, as a result of the use of English cadaver odour detection dogs, the possibility of the death of Madeleine McCann became more evident within the investigation.
The McCann couple has said several times that the Police should focus on the possibility of abduction, which the couple insists was the only scenario that happened, and that the Police should not forget to continue investigating suspect Robert Murat.
Strangely, Kate McCann has also requested several times, more than 3 months after the disappearance of Madeleine, that the Police carry out tests on blood, hair and fingernails from Madeleine’s twin siblings, because as she said, she remembered that on the day that Madeleine disappeared, despite all the noise and the turmoil that were caused by the authorities and other people searching for Madeleine in apartment A5 at the Ocean Club, the twins never woke up, having been carried into another apartment, always asleep, which now caused her to presume that they were under the effect of some sedative drug, which a presumed abductor would have administered to the three children, so he could abduct Madeleine, a situation that Kate referred to as possible, because she read in a criminal investigation manual that was offered to her by the English authorities, that this had been the procedure of an abductor in a real case that involved the abduction, sexual abuse and homicide of a little girl.
Today, when the signatory visited the couple’s temporary residence in order to notify them to come to the Police station to give a statement, which they may do in the company of a lawyer, Kate McCann immediately reacted negatively, producing comments like “what are my parents going to think” and “what is the press going to say when they find out” and that “the Portuguese police are under pressure from the Government to rapidly end the investigation”.
Concerning Gerald McCann, he constantly insisted on delivering to the signatory, letters and emails that he had been receiving, most of them coming from psychics and mediums, which had been selected by himself and which mostly contained information without much credibility, about the possible whereabouts of Madeleine and her presumptuous abductor.
More recently, before Kate McCann’s interrogation, during a telephone contact from Gerald McCann to the signatory, he mentioned, concerning the investigation, that he was certain that the Police had no evidence to incriminate them in the death of Madeleine McCann, and that the Police was wasting time by directing the investigation towards the parents.
This is all that I am due to inform you about, for the purpose that you may deem as convenient.
The Inspector,
(Ricardo Paiva)
I just watched Goncalo's documentary again with the subtitles on Joana's blog.
The one thing I do find very odd is the witness he was speaking to who claims that day and night whatever the time the McCanns always left that car boot open. That is very strange behaviour if true!
Morning All,
Just been reading back - some interesting posts.
The boot of the car being left open. Michael Wright and Cameron both confirm this is to be true. Wright says the car always smelt unpleasant and he thought it was due to the twins nappies that were regularly transported to the local dump in it. Cameron says it was due to food spillages being transported to the local dump. Cameron in fact owns up to cleaning out the boot thoroughly to remove the spillages.
The McCanns rubbish disposal whilst at the rented villa is strange. They do not appear to have used just the one rubbish disposal point they used 4 or 5 different ones in the surrounding area. One has to ask why?
I have just been reading Carolyn Kish’s sighting – was that Gerry?
My first impression it was probably a hack phoning through his latest copy to his editor. But was it Gerry – my take on this is if it was GM he was reading from notes a statement he had prepared previously for any journalist that called him.
I don’t think Kish’s sighting is significant unless it can be linked into some other evidence.
Hiya Wiz
I do not ignore the possibility that Maddie died and they disposed of her. It is just there is no real evidence to prove that unfortunately.
I certainly agree the boot smell etc and rubbish disposal is very odd indeed. I cannot understand why they would wish to visit a variety of tips, it is hardly entertainment!
Kish, again, unfortunately another witness who just did not think it was significant at the time which really dilutes the cogency of her evidence. But in many respects she sounds a very credible witness. I think it is possible that she is telling the truth and Maddie was removed alive due to her being sexually abused by subsequently died perhaps. Maybe Gerry did not have the control over people he used to the extent that he is used to controlling everyone? I am back to thinking maybe Murat does have something to do with all of this, there is just something about him that does not seem quite right.
Also I have read that Gerry was previously in Portugal in 1994 and Payne apparently "11 years previously". Gerry said the main reason he was interested in Portugal was really good golf sites. Now whilst that maybe true it seems a very perverse reason to give. There are some fantastic golf sites in our area, Scotland etc! You surely do not go to the Algarve just for the golf!
Hi All
Well there is so much reading to do I don't no where to start.
I will start though with Sky News, as I have told you all before hubby is not really interested, he keeps saying their are many children who have disappeared, why focus on Madeleine.
The reports today on the news seem to have struck a chord with him, or maybe I have just worn him down.
His words, " I thought she was taken from the bedroom of the apartment, how do they now know she has wandered outside and been taken by a paedophile, that is taking it too far".
He also wondered why they were even giving it air time when we also hear about baby P and what the other poor little girl who had to give evidence suffered.
I cannot agree more.
Message for Zodiac
Hello..
I have just seen on my e mail account I have a PM from you on the 3As...
I am not allowed to have a PM on there as I left and post on Jan's site...
You know what a trouble maker I am!!!! LOL
Can you resend it to hope_4truth@yahoo.com please xxx
Mark Williams-Thomas, aka ex Insp.Knackers of the Yard, believes Madeleine wandered off looking for her parents and was picked up by a trawling paedophile – this of course is just speculation. So why anyone should listen to this line of speculation as apposed to another I don’t know.
Perhaps it’s because their lawyers tell them this slightly different story to the parents is as far as they can go without being sued.
Of course ex Insp. Knackers also says Madeleine is dead now which will not go down very well in the Pink camp.
Hi Wizard
The fact idiot Mitchel dared to utter the discusting words "there is no reason to belive she has been harmed" when they have sold the story she was taken by a peadophile ring shows just how much they want the world to dip their hands into their pockets and top up "The Fund"...
Of course the fund or "Madeleines Fund" is now used to pay the directors which have including Kate and Gerry and other members of the family who have given up very well paid jobs getting their bung oh and of course just what Madeleien needs Lawyers Media Monitors and Spin Dr's of course they have paid a fraud investigation firm less than 14% of it to search for her...
Well why would they search they never botherd in PDL not once and while the good people there gave up their time to search for her they sat in swim suits eating and drinking wine or putting ribbons in her hair whild posing with happy smiles on thier faces...
SO I ask again Why is Madeleine less important than any other child? It is all about Kate and Gerry the parents who left her alone and have done nothing to help the investigation.
Listening to the Pink Clown telling us that the reconstruction was how it happend made me laugh. It is another of the stupid statments he has made he can tell us Mark WT is wrong and go on about the window which only had Kate's prints on it shows how desprate things have become...
They need Money and they need to make sure we are all stupidly following their lead....
I think Oprah is a huge mistake on both sides the more that comes out the more people question and if Oprah gives a damn about children what did Madeleine ever do that was so wrong to be shoved aside so that the parents who have done nothing for her before or after she went missing could be turned into the victims of their own crime?
hiya Di and all
I notice Willliams Thomas operates his media business from Leicester and cannot help but feel that he is part of the McCann campaign. That campaign it seems to me, is primarily to promote the idea that the McCanns are innocent.
Maybe even the Mcs realise the public are on to the idea that they themselves could be involved in the abduction of Madeleine now that Goncalo is starting to talk about Payne. As Hope says the only fingerprints on the window are Kate's on the inside. I gather from Goncalo's documentary it was more than one set of prints as well. This seems to put her well and truly in the frame if you will excuse the pun.
What I cannot understand is given they clearly decided to admit (or I would prefer falsely claim) from a very early stage they left the patio door open (Kate's witness statement on the afternoon of 4 May) and Gerry earlier that day saying that Mat came in that way although bizarrely he and kate walked all the way around; why is it that they do not seek to suggest the abductor simply walked in that way? Is that because there are no handles on the outside of the patio door and so the only way you could have opened it from the outside would be to place your hands on the glass? I would go further given what previous occupants say, it is not possible to slide it open from the outside, you would actually have to leave it slightly ajar to be able to get it open from the outside.
Another thing that baffles me why is there all this talk about the abductor climbing back out of the window again with Madeleine? Why on earth would he do that ? Relatives were told the front door was wide open wern't they?
Di, I do agree with your hubby, not just how perverse it is to suddenly start suggesting Maddie walked out, which they always denied, but how likely is it in such a quiet area that a paedophile would just have been happening by at the right moment? We are told Maddie was a very bright child and therefore had she got out I believe, trying to think what my own were like at that age she would have quickly homed in on her mom and dad. But the prospects of her being able to get out are quite ridiculous and shame on Williams Thomas for not properly considering the evidence. Mrs Fenn states that Maddie cried for one and a quarter hours a few nights previously. So if Maddie could get out to find mom and dad and on the assumption no one was there molesting her, then she would have opened the patio door and got out that night to find them, that is obvious! I think it actually proves that the patio doors were not left open.
Kate and Gerry in almost identical initial statements each tell the police that Maddie had that supposed conversation with them at breakfast time, Gerry claims she said to him why did you not come last night WHEN THE TWINS WERE CRYING and Kate says the identical things except claiming Maddie said this to her. Kate says she just ignored it because she had not mentioned it before! This is actually a different story to what Kate told on the TV last year, I believe. It was certainly news to me to read in their statements on 3 As that apparently both the twins were crying. My understanding had always been Maddie said when me and Sean were crying, but now we hear it was apparently all three of them.
I believe it is obvious from reading Kate and Gerry's almost identikit statements they both told the police this tale to make it plausible that an abductor heard just the night before the children were left or alone or maybe to actually imply the abductor was there!
Kate and Gerry got those statements just too perfect and I would say they sat there all night practising what they were going to say to the police the following day. No time to prat around pretending to look for Madeleine.
Sometimes Di, like your husband says I feel awful that we are all focussing so much on Madeleine. It was what the McCanns have actually caused us to do to counter their lies and because they have so far evaded justice for what they did. There are so many other children suffering in the same way as Madeleine but what actually makes this case different is the unprecedented campaign by Madeleine's abusers to evade justice. I have also thought that if the McCanns are seen to get away with what they have done it will do a lot of harm to other children. Other parents will think, just like Karen Matthews did, I can get away with this. We really need the law to make an example of Kate and Gerry McCann to show all the others that actually no you cannot, look for all their campaigns, media manipulators and lawyers they are still where they belong. I think it is this that makes us see the McCann case and little Madeleine as something we just have to stick with. Not just for Madeleine but for thousands of other little children.
xx
Hiya Hope
Who was a naughty girl then! ha!
I try to ignore all this interblog stuff it is so distracting. If I worried what Rosie etc said about me I would long since have given up!
I am sure Zodiac will see your message.
That is perhaps one of the most horrific things about the McCann campaign, the continued insistence that on the one hand she has been taken by a gang of paedophiles but on the other that there is absolutely no evidence she could have come to any harm and the clear suggestion she can be recovered alive and well. It is a like a happy fairy tale ending. But we know that is not how paedophiles treat children. We also know that Gerry immediately placed Maddie's life in danger by advertising her eye defect.
I saw the aged picture of Madeleine on the news tonight. Again it is all too little too late. Did it really take the McCanns two years to think we really need to know what Maddie would actually look like? Well it would seem not,because it was compared with the picture of Madeleine looking like she is posing for a girly mag aged two with short bobbed and tinted hair. S0 that was nothing to do with what she looked like in PDL either is it. The fraudulent and sickening lies of this couples campaign just seem to know no bounds. I do not know what to make of Oprah. I know that she is very concerned about sexual abuse of children and so do wonder if she is concerned also that is what happened to Madeleine. If she is going to perpetuate the idea that somehow some stranger got into that flat she is more of a fool than I thought she was.
I also saw the flyer for their docusoap on Thursday. I will watch it and try and have an old ornament to throw out the door in my rage!
xx
Hi Viv
I think they are going round in circles so desprate to keep the abduction alive so the cash comes in and they are not blamed...
An aged photo should have been done last year when she was nearly 5 but what did we get a video of Madeleine a year younger than when she was abducted. The reason of course we just had to see that video was because Gerry was playing the loving Dad videoing his lovely clever daughter along with the twins..
I am sure we would never have seen that video if a freind had taken it or even Kate it was just to show what a great Dad Gerry was...
My Dad is my Hero I have been married for 17 years this year and can clearly remember how upset I was that he had to give me away he thought it was awful as well. Obviously nothing has changed although maybe I am no longer the best girl in the world as my girls have him totaly smitten but their relationship with him is the same as I had with my Mum's Dad and I must say Mr Hope is a damn good Dad as well...
From my normal family life I just cant get my head round their behaviour and more so the Grandparents behaviour there is no way my parents would accept this. They love me but they also love my children and if they thought for a second I had been away with someone who has been accused of being a peadophile and I was not helping in any way as much as they would hate the publicity I can see them being very vocal about what had happend to their grandchild...
Also whatever I did I know they would still love me enought not to leave me hiding such a big secret as no one can cope with the guilt forever...
xxx
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