MADELEINE: I KNOW HOW SHE WAS TAKEN
THEORY: Investigator Donal MacIntyre says he knows how Madeleine was abducted
By Donal MacIntyre
MADELEINE McCann was abducted by at least two kidnappers who must have carried out several dry runs in the days leading up to her disappearance.
After spending a week on the ground investigating the case and the methods used by the kidnappers, I can only conclude that they must have entered the apartment to carry out a rehearsal, because they were working to an incredibly tight schedule.
The three-minute time frame they allowed themselves left no margin for error.
But even though they did their homework with meticulous care, they still came within seconds of capture.
I believe the focus of the investigation for the private investigators hired by Madeleine’s parents should be on a breakdown of who was in and around the Mark Warner Ocean Club in Praia da Luz throughout their holiday.
It is more than probable key witnesses would have seen the kidnappers in the days and nights leading up to the abduction on
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Such was the narrow window of opportunity, only agile, sharp-witted people well-practised in breaking and entering properties could have pulled this off.
Over the past week I have conducted a cold case review of most of the available evidence relating to the abduction and had lengthy discussions with numerous Portuguese sources who cannot be identified.
Crucial to unravelling the whole case is establishing what precisely took place from
In my view too little attention has been paid to what I believe was a key sighting.
A dark-haired woman was observed standing near a street light at a road junction that overlooks
She was seen looking at the apartment as the late evening gloom descended.
Was she also watching to see the movements of Kate and Gerry McCann and their holiday friends, the so-called Tapas Seven? I think so.
The same witness who saw the mystery woman also saw a gold or brown Nissan car driving erratically past the woman.
Despite appeals neither the woman nor the driver of the car has come forward.
Was this Nissan the getaway car and was its driver conducting a dry run at this very time? Again, I think so.
Although we do not, sadly, have a minute-by-minute breakdown of the events that took place, this is the scenario that I believe unfolded.
Having settled Madeleine, then three, and their two-year- old twins, Sean and Amelie, Gerry and Kate, from Rothley, Leicestershire, have a glass of wine before heading off to the tapas bar, a minute’s walk away, to join their friends Jane Tanner and her partner Russell O’Brien, Rachel and Mathew Oldfield, David and Fiona Payne and Diane Webster.
At about
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He enters the apartment and then goes to the toilet. He checks on his children and savours a proud father’s moment as he stands by the doorway looking into the back bedroom where they are all soundly asleep.
The twins are in cots and Madeleine in bed, holding her favourite toy, Cuddle Cat. Gerry spends up to 10 minutes in the five-room apartment and will only later reflect that he felt there was someone else there at the same time.
For the kidnap to have taken place I believe Gerry’s gut instinct was sound.
So we must assume that a few minutes before Gerry arrived, the abductor walked along the public road beside the apartment, opened the gate, walked up 10 steps to the patio and entered through the open patio doors.
At this stage he or she is a heartbeat away from being caught. But where could the abductor have hidden? Gerry walked through the front room, used the bathroom and looked in on the children – but did he check anywhere else?
My view is that the abductor was probably in the children’s bedroom, possibly behind the door or crouching behind furniture.
As Gerry strolls out of the patio doors, closing but not locking them, he leaves through the same small gate facing the road where the abductor has entered minutes before.
Just outside, he meets television producer Jes Wilkins on the way back to the tapas bar. There is not another soul on the street.
Back inside the apartment the abductor must be breathing a sigh of relief as Gerry leaves, then realises his exit route is blocked and plan B has to be put into operation.
For this, help is essential. The abductor inside the apartment passes Madeleine – probably put to sleep with chloroform – through the open window into the accomplice’s arms.
In the distance, the voices of Gerry McCann and Jes Wilkins waft through the air.
What trauma would Madeleine suffer if, terrified and forcibly kept silent, she hears Dad’s voice as she is being bundled into the hands of dangerous strangers? At the same time – about
The kidnapper holding Madeleine retreats to the adjacent car park before heading on to the same footpath where, a short distance downhill, Gerry and Wilkins are talking.
The accomplice makes his way out of the window and into the darkness.
The kidnappers think they have got away with it, but they are on the brink of being caught.
Despite hearing the voices of Madeleine’s father a short distance away, the kidnapper holding the girl plans to cross the road junction just above them.
As he hits the footpath, he sees both men chatting and Jane Tanner heading his way – three potential witnesses to the abduction, including the father of the child.
Why choose such a potentially disastrous course? My belief is that he had to make a rendezvous with the getaway driver.
The seven seconds he took to cross the road were either well-planned, foolhardy or a sign of breathtaking confidence. In any case, the kidnapper never faltered and was never seen again.
Jane Tanner says he was carrying a child. She believes it was Madeleine and her theory is supported by the McCann investigators.
The timing of the statements from the key witnesses suggests that there was a maximum of three to five minutes for the abduction to be executed.
In such circumstances only good planning and co-ordination could make this possible. It would be an extraordinary effort, needing an astonishing degree of luck, if this had been done on an opportunistic basis.
The clean execution of the kidnap, without a hint of a
Such precision is the hallmark of fixated, obsessive sexual predators. There were 20 known paedophiles living on the
However, the area must be a magnet for sex offenders. It has a creche, school and nursery. Add a transient population of young holidaymakers and you have a lot of attractions for sexual predators.
With its road access the McCann apartment was the most vulnerable in the complex and it is easy to see why a paedophile would make it a target.
The McCanns’ decision, formed by the semi-secure nature of the holiday complex, to use a check-in system for their children rather than have babysitters allowed the abductors to strike. In hindsight, that unfortunate decision left their children vulnerable to an abductor.
Last week I walked unchallenged on to the property in the company of another journalist. We were both unsuitably dressed and surrounded by children and parents. We had a drink and left. Two hours later I returned and again was not challenged.
Today there is more lighting around the complex but little else has changed. Until the kidnappers are caught, the unspoken fear will remain that Praia da Luz is a sunny place for shady people.
All that remains visible of the Madeleine McCann campaign there is a touching shrine in the beautiful church on the sea front.
Pray For Me, the heart-shaped poster pleads. Below it, 10 electric candles flicker in her memory. Many more will be lit before this mystery is solved.
Lawyers representing Kate and Gerry McCann have demanded that a website claiming their daughter was not abducted should be taken down.
The Madeleine Foundation claims Madeleine is dead and her parents bear some responsibility for her death.
The McCanns’ spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “Kate and Gerry have made it clear they will not dignify the actions of the so-called Madeleine Foundation with any comment.”
They have just nicked my brilliant scenario from 7 September: How Very Dare They???Well maybe we should get on to "Cutting Edge" and ask them why they did not do a proper reconstruction along the lines of what Gerry told us.
Then we would have to be shown, abductor not jemmying the window and shutter open and climbing in over Kate's unmade bed without leaving any forensic trace.
Abductor hearing Gerry, firstly coming in through the front door via his key (4 May) and secondly Gerry coming in through rear patio door (10 May). We would have to see the abductor in a flurry around this apt as he attempted to hide whilst Gerry was entering both the doors, as depicted. Eventually in an utter panic, said abductor would be depicted hiding behind the bedroom door as Gerry entered and waving to him when Gerry turned around to depart and saw him there. Perhaps abductor could say to Gerry it is OK I only want Maddie, you can keep the other two. I am not sure at what stage Gerry went and had a strain on the toilet but am sure this could be fitted in.
From there, Gerry could be depicted exiting the apartment having exchanged pleasantries with the abductor and standing on guard at the rear exit (just to make sure he did not get too greedy).
Gerry could then be depicted whizzing backwards and forwards across the road as he chatted to Wilkins.
Gerry could then be depicted standing facing up the road looking at the abductor at the same time as Jane Tanner squeezed past him also looking at said abductor.
Said abductor would have to be depicted either clambering through the bedroom window with Maddie, fast asleep and avoiding at all costs and scrapes in lichen or leaving any forensic trace.
Or said abductor could be depicted opening the front door with Maddie cradled across his arms and without needing to worry about it being deadlocked because of course Gerry wanted to be helpful and not put the deadlock.
Then said abductor could be depicted whizzing across with short dark hair and being 5'10 and then again with masses of thick dago hair and a moustache but also looking a lot like a woman and being 5'7".
Now did I miss anything ou?
- on Mon 7 Sep - 1:50
- Search in: Links to Forums and Blogs/Polls
- Topic: RE: What do you think?
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OF THIS, WE ARE CERTAIN
All we need to know is that three very small children were left alone repeatedly, by their parents. And the only reason we are all here discussing
the minutae surrounding these parents, is that one of those very small children is missing.
Madeleine Beth McCann is missing either because her parents did indeed, leave her and her siblings night after night, and an abductor really did take the eldest,
who had not yet reached her fourth birthday. OR, the same parents knew exactly what had happened to Madeleine, and as many believe, that an "abduction" was staged by the parents and their friends; friends who also admitted leaving their small children. These are the only scenarios. And whichever way the spin doctors spin it - and my goodness, they certainly have, whether the first or the second scenario happened - it totally stinks, because IT IS THE FAULT OF THE PARENTS.
That Gerry McCann said that their parenting was "in the realms of responsible" is the stuff of fairytales. We all KNOW that if this was the case, then they would have all their kids, and we would have never heard of any of them. The only reason we know about the McCanns, is because they were , at best, by their own admission, negligent. When Clarence Mitchell announced smugly to the nation that "it is a British thing (leaving small kiddies alone) we all do it" we know that he was lying. Because we don't. We simply KNOW as parents, that small children should never, ever, be left. The fact that he said this is, is proof (to me anyway) that the McCann's actions needed justifying. But there is no justification in the world, for what they did.
They left them. They admit this. They won't apologise for it - the most they will grudgingly say is, "we wish we were there when she was taken". As if it was inevitable. But we all know that IF she was taken, then it is no one's fault but their own. As doctors, they should KNOW all too well the horrors that await unattended children. And yet they still try to distance themselves from the blame. But they can't. Because the buck stops with them, it always has, and it always will.
Sometimes, whilst we trawl through posts and files, we may have doubts. We can't see the woods for the trees. But if we remember why we are all here - and go back to the beginning...then it all becomes clear.
They left her. They let her down - they then deflected blame and hired PR people to spin for them. But some things are totally unspinnable. Which is why I'm still here - she deserved so much better. And one day, sooner or later, truth will out, for a little girl who was appallingly let down - and who often appears an afterthought, whilst the PR people try to spin the unspinnable, and paint her parents whiter than white.
38 comments:
This poster expresses my own sentiments so eloquently and so accurately about everthing that is wrong with Kate and Gerry McCann and their claims of being innocent and distraught parents
And Carrie goes on to say:
This little girl had cried for her mummy and daddy, previously. She had asked why her parents left her and Sean crying. Kate McCann said that that they only remembered this as an afterthought, after Maddie had gone. What sort of parents do this?? Regardless of what Mark Warner promoted, as parents, they should have realised that Maddie had cried for them, and they hadn't been there. Then they left them again. It is the stuff of a small child's nightmares. To cry for mummy and daddy, and neither of them come to you. As a parent, to KNOW that your child had previously awoken and cried - as had her baby brother - you make the decision to leave them again. As a mother - you just don't do this. There is no excuse!
yes that is why we are here because of Madeleine.
I cant worry about her parents as they through many interviews statements and spin have only ever covered their own backs...
If Madeleine was taken they do not deserve for it to have happend to their child to have to live for god knows how long not knowing if she is in the hands of hell or never comming back...
But Madeleine does not deserve this either but as Kate said she is probebly giving them her tuppence worth comments like that leave me shaking my head in despair because as a Mother the thought of my child standing up to a peadophile would scare me half to death in case she was hurt more for doing so or killed because she was getting to hard to handle....
What will sueing people achieve? Lots of money in the bank but it will not bring Madeleine back asking for the investigation to be reopened may go some way to help with this....
I would be on my knees begging for it to be kept open if it were my child and if I was lucky enough to have a fund would ask the experts how to use it not find the first fraud investigation firm who come along to charge a fortune for nothing....
hiya Hope
I agree the remark "she is probably giving them her tuppence worth" is just horrifying. What could it be that these parents really think happened to Madeleine. I remain convinced they know and they are really not the least bit concerned.
They have not once asked the real police in either Portugal or UK to look for her, to me that says it all, in the same way they have not once bothered to mention the reward for this little girl they insist is alive and well, but most likely in the hands of paedophiles. It just beggars belief they could expect anyone to believe they are normal caring parents.
What have they always been concerned about? Suing people to top their fund up, or simply to shut them up. It has nothing at all to do with little Madeleine.
Hi Viv, Hope & all
This people are mad ands evil.What kind of tupence can a 3 year old give to a phaedophil.This comment of Kate make me sick and the only thing i can think about it is she knows her child can no more suffer.
Hi all
Hope I couldn't agree more, I would also be begging the Police to re-open the case, that is what any grieving parent would do who desperately wanted their child found. In this case it would seem they are much more interested in who they can sue next and how much can they make.
IMO the fund was never intended to be used to search for Madeleine it was purely for saving their sorry necks, by getting the best lawyers possible. I am also convinced they thought they were going to be charged from word go, and most likely would have been if not for the outside help.
Hi Viv
Sorry I forgot to say good post by Carrie.
I have got screaming babies on the brain at the moment.
Hiya Di, and I gather your lovely little grandson has been exercising his lungs!
Hope all are doing well but it sounds like it!
Is your daughter feeling better now?
I gathered you were not posting due to your lovely new arrival, but it is nice to see you back.
I certainly agree the Fund was always about protecting themselves. Gerry has been pretty clear about that, firstly to Jane Hill, well it has enabled us to get a really good team of lawyers together which was a pretty staggering remark for a parent in the first few weeeks of having their child abducted. What exactly did he think lawyers were going to do to get her back?
Then in September 07 it was made plain that so far as Gerry was concerned he should be able to use the fund for defence costs, but of ocurse Esther McVey put a stop to that, and then she left. Maybe there was a vote of no confidence in her? I think it is more likely given how quickly she and another went after them being made arguidos, she thought, no can do, have a reputation to think of.
Good for her!
xx
Oh and Di, yes it is a great post by Carrie, and I am not expecting any libel writ because of it:-)))
Hiya Mandarrin and great to see you again, it would be a mercy if you are right and Kate can come out with such a disgusting remark because she knows that Madeleine cannot suffer any more.
What a peculiar woman, well she knows we love her, Kate and
Gerry McCann are so bizarre they never fail to just take my breath away!
wrote this on 7 September and get out the sick buckets for exactly how Maddie was abducted posted at the top of this thread from the super Daily Depress.
I suppose if I write crap like this I must expect Team McCann to nick all my best ideas:
I was only jokin Gezzy!
Well maybe we should get on to "Cutting Edge" and ask them why they did not do a proper reconstruction along the lines of what Gerry told us.
Then we would have to be shown, abductor not jemmying the window and shutter open and climbing in over Kate's unmade bed without leaving any forensic trace.
Abductor hearing Gerry, firstly coming in through the front door via his key (4 May) and secondly Gerry coming in through rear patio door (10 May). We would have to see the abductor in a flurry around this apt as he attempted to hide whilst Gerry was entering both the doors, as depicted. Eventually in an utter panic, said abductor would be depicted hiding behind the bedroom door as Gerry entered and waving to him when Gerry turned around to depart and saw him there. Perhaps abductor could say to Gerry it is OK I only want Maddie, you can keep the other two. I am not sure at what stage Gerry went and had a strain on the toilet but am sure this could be fitted in.
From there, Gerry could be depicted exiting the apartment having exchanged pleasantries with the abductor and standing on guard at the rear exit (just to make sure he did not get too greedy).
Gerry could then be depicted whizzing backwards and forwards across the road as he chatted to Wilkins.
Gerry could then be depicted standing facing up the road looking at the abductor at the same time as Jane Tanner squeezed past him also looking at said abductor.
Said abductor would have to be depicted either clambering through the bedroom window with Maddie, fast asleep and avoiding at all costs and scrapes in lichen or leaving any forensic trace.
Or said abductor could be depicted opening the front door with Maddie cradled across his arms and without needing to worry about it being deadlocked because of course Gerry wanted to be helpful and not put the deadlock.
Then said abductor could be depicted whizzing across with short dark hair and being 5'10 and then again with masses of thick dago hair and a moustache but also looking a lot like a woman and being 5'7".
Now did I miss anything out?by viv
on Mon 7 Sep - 1:50
Belfast telegraph continues its interviews with Dave Hapless Edgar.
By Aaron Tinney Sunday, 20 September 2009 Belfast Telegraph
A controversial DNA test used in the failed Omagh bomb case is the key to finding Madeleine McCann’s kidnapper, Ulster investigator Dave Edgar has claimed.
But the former RUC detective sergeant’s team will never be able to use it as Portuguese authorities will not give him access to forensic information.
Speaking exclusively to Sunday Life at the HQ of his Alpha Investigations Group in Cheshire, the ex-cop leading the search for Maddie believes that DNA tests, which can establish a profile from just a few cells, could help solve the mystery.
Edgar said he tries to maintain “a decent relationship” with Algarve cops but has blasted them for contaminating the scene of her disappearance.
He claimed if Low Copy Number (LCN) DNA testing had been carried out at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, where Maddie vanished from two years and four months ago, it is “highly likely” her abductor would have been nailed.
LCN DNA is a highly sensitive forensic procedure which magnifies potential evidence that is unidentifiable by traditional DNA testing.
It can obtain a perpetrator’s profile from only a few cells as small as a millionth the size of a grain of salt. Some argue its magnification method leaves evidence open to distortion.
Doubts were raised when south Armagh electrician Sean Hoey was cleared of charges connected to the Omagh bombing in a case which focused on LCN DNA.
But Dave has seen it work before. His team used it in 2007 to snare killer Stephen Mottram, who stabbed love-rival Andrew Batterton to death in a jealous rage.
Dave said: “It’s an amazingly powerful tool, so it’s a real shame we will never get to use it with Maddie.”
Prosecutors in the Omagh case claimed that LCN analysis had shown links between the bomb timers used in the attack and Hoey.
But the judge rejected the use of the technique because it was not yet seen to be at a sufficiently scientific level to be considered evidence and Hoey was cleared of a total of 58 charges, including 29 murders.
A UK-wide suspension of the technique after the Omagh case collapsed was lifted in January of last year and detectives are now free to use it again.
The PSNI has championed Low Copy Number DNA analysis, pointing out that it helped catch Trevor Hamilton, the serial offender who brutally murdered Strabane pensioner Attracta Harron in December 2003.
LCN DNA was also crucial to the conviction fireman Gordon Graham for the 2000 murder of Lisburn man Paul Gault, husband of Graham’s Fire Service lover Lesley, a mum of triplets.
Graham battered his love rival to death with a hockey stick and tried to the make the killing look like work of a burglar.
But Graham’s attempt to commit the ‘perfect crime’ was undone by traces of his sweat found on the handle of sports bag at the Gault's Audley Park home.
Graham, who has always denied the murder, was ordered to serve a minimum 18 years behind bars by the judge who branded him “brutal and merciless” killer.
Good Morning,
The Sunday Express story highlights the unlikely scenario of an abduction. I think they are taking the p*ss at the McCanns expense with this story.
The fairy tale is so unlikely, but of course, Donal MacIntyre does tell us:
After spending a week on the ground…”.
I hope not unconscious through too much of the hard stuff!
hiya Wiz
It could be said there is a lot of p&ss taking currently going on, not just the ridiculous claims of how the abduction took place by this man who "spent a week on the ground" two and a half years later, but by Dave Edgar claiming LCN DNA would solve the case when it is such common knowledge the LCN DNA was so crucial to ascertain whether or not the McCanns actually killed Madeleine. He goes on the PJ will not let him have access to the forensics, well indeed since when did any proper police force allow the prime suspects to have access to such material! He tells us the PJ trashed the crime scene, again we know the McCanns and their entourage had trashed it before the police even arrived, fully detailed in the final report.
Either Dave Edgar is really stupid, or he is being paid so much money to spout this rubbish by Kate and Gerry he really could not care less, strongly suspect it is the latter.
I continue to believe the Daily Express think th McCanns are really good value for money:-)))
Very interesting Wiz, Robert Murat's mother set up a stall telling people Maddie disappeared at 7 am on 4 May, now, ahem, why did she do that!
I contnue to believe it is likely this man was involved in a planned abduction of Madeleine arranged by Gerry McCann and that is why he flew back in to Pt on 1 May from UK, ready for duty as it were. Gerry refusing to confirm/deny whther he knew Robert Murat and looking so cross still remains an incredibly guilty reaction!
Witness Statement of Maria Cecilia Pereira Pires
Laffin Assasin Today at 16:41
.This one could be dynamite !!!!!!!!
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post12924.html#p12924
Processos VI
1581 to 1584
Witness Statement of Maria Cecilia Pereira Pires
Date: 2007.05.23
Profession: Journalist for Portugal Resident
She has been a journalist for about 16 years, but has worked for the above-referenced paper for about one month.
Questioned, responds that on the 4th of May, 2007, she was asked to go to Praia da Luz, Lagos, in order to cover the case of a missing child.
She clarifies that she was informed that the disappearance of the child occurred in the Mark Warner Ocean Club resort, and that the family/child’s family surname was McCann.
She responds that when she arrived at Praia da Luz around 09H30/10H00, and as she headed to the GNR post where she gathered some information, she then headed next to a group of journalists where she learnt further case details.
Because so little time had passed since the disappearance, she took the decision to walk around the area of the resort.
She adds that this decision was also made due to the information that the child may have left the apartment of her own accord, and may still be in the immediate area.
During her walk, she came across a bare patch of land, situated north, a few meters from the resort. She met a male individual, about 50 years in age, who approached her and asked if she was involved in the [read organized?] search for the missing child.
The deponent told him that she was not, even though she confirmed that she was looking, in order to calm her conscience a bit.
In this context, the individual proposed that both of them head towards a house, apparently unlived in, but not abandoned, with the intent of looking for the child, and so it would not appear like trespassing.
After entering the parking area of the residence, where they called out to see if anyone was home, they verified that a woman was inside. This was a woman of advanced age, around 70 years old, 1,5 to 1,6 metres in height, with grey hair combed and coiffed in the shape of a “banana”. The individual with the deponent asked this older woman to help them search for this child. This older woman agreed.
She clarifies that the individual headed toward the pool zone and the deponent, accompanied by the older woman, lagged behind as the older woman walked slowly.
During this time, the older woman exclaimed to the deponent that she was bothered with the entire situation of the disappearance and further commented that the parents had to be going through great anguish.
The above conversation occurred in English, with the older woman indicating that she lived about 100 metres from the resort, and that the night prior she noticed the arrival of the police due to their sirens. This was around 22H00.
The woman in question told her that she had been having dinner with her son when she heard the sirens, and assumes that it was at this time that the disappearance was noted.
She clarifies that the older woman did not speak about a ‘child or a boy child’ and specifically mentioned “a girl child”. The deponent did not find this strange because by that time, May 4th, everyone knew it was a girl child that had gone missing.
cont'd..
The woman above also indicated that her son was working with the police in trying to locate the child.
She adds that after searching the area around the residence where they found nothing, (the same can be said for the pool neat the house), they were stopped by a neighbor. From what she could make out, he was German but asked them in English what was going on, and then after responded that the Police had been searching the area with dogs.
During the conversation with the older woman, the deponent was introduced to this individual. The deponent confirmed that she was a journalist. The other individual told them that he was searching for the child. The deponent then left the area and the other individuals staying behind.
This situation appeared to her very normal.
She responds that during her work, she came to know the son of the older woman. The journalists referred to him as Robert Murat. He was someone who was involved with the journalists and police with much freedom. He spoke both English and Portuguese.
She states that on the 5th of May, the British journalists affirmed that Robert Murat was one of the suspects in the missing child case. He appeared very much surprised at this and confirmed that he was going to back-off so that he would not be the subject of such comments. Following this point, it was very difficult to contact him.
She clarifies that when she saw the pictures at the information kiosk operated by Robert’s mother, she was certain that his mother was the same one she had met on the 4th.
She responds that when she read the notices, offered by Robert’s mother, she was taken aback by one sentence. That sentence read that the child had gone missing at 07H00 on the 4th of May. This information was supposedly proffered as a result of a telephone call she received. As a result, she set up the information kiosk. The deponent found this strange, given what had occurred between her and this woman on the 4th of May.
She affirms that she became aware of the name of the older woman from newspapers. On the day she initially met her (the 4th of May) this older woman did not identify herself.
She adds that she has many times pondered this situation but always thought it was of no significance. Only today and when she saw what was written did she decide to communicate the fact. She knows with absolute certainty that this older woman was aware of the disappearance given what this older woman had stated to her the morning of May 4th.
Because she is asked, the deponent responds that she bears no grudge against these individuals who she has never seen before. She is certain that this appears an attempt to construct an alibi. There is incongruence between what the older women is stating regarding the 4th and what can be read in the newspapers of today (23 of May, 2007). She felt it her obligation to communicate these facts to the authorities.
And nothing more was said.
Hello
I cant belive that Dave wants to bring up the Low Copy DNA the Pros spent so many bile fuled hate fests against it and how it was rubbish and proved nothing and now dopey dave wants to bring it up again???
Maybe he is not so daft and is not really working for them after all maybe the man took the job to work for Madeleine after all he is being paid with her money the decent thing to do would be to work for the victim.
That is weird Hope, I read your first para and thought hang on a minute this Dave is not so daft, then I read your second one and you say precisely that.
One thing I am sure of about dopey Dave, at that press conference he was so nervous he was almost hyperventilating. Check out how he is wringing his hands in anguish and keeps mopping the sweat from his brown, for one reason or another this man knew he was telling some real whoppers and he as really worried about it.
It would be nice to think he is playing fast and loose with the McCanns and using that money for Madeleine. Now that would really serve them right! Sometimes he just seems to be getting a little too close for comfort. I think that maybe Maddie really was taken off on some posh yacht and he thinks the local area is key and then he starts talking about the DNA, he is either a thick nit, or a genius!
xx
Hi Viv
The McCann's have a huge problem dont they who can they trust?
When the Low Copy DNA was mentioned by him I did a double take as it was so important on the DX for RP and MUM to diss it laugh at it and make sure everyone was left under no illusion just how stupid it was.
In fact diddnt the guy who first brought DNA to crime fighting actually come out and say it was not reliable???
I remember at the time thinking OMG how many prisoners are going to apeal now if the guy who (not invented but you know what I mean) says it is not reliable?
Now Dave wants it fromt he PJ and is cross he cant have it...
The other thing is it acutally exists? I did not think they would be stupid enough to send everything over to England to be destroyed!!!
Hiya Hope
I suppose that is another thing with the obviously constant need to keep making more money to keep their Fund high. Bribing all those people he needs around him must be pretty expensive, but of course he still gets the backing of Brian Kennedy. His motivations for doing that still cause me to wonder, because no normal person could consider the McCanns innocent of involvement in all of this.
I think LCN has now been given a clean bill of health but the problem is it always results from where there are just a few cells and I read that DNA in blood can only be extracted from white blood cells, there are only 5%, so when they get a result it often seems to be it has to be qualified with the response not sufficient for meaningful analysis as we saw in this case. It was apparent that some samples were so small it could not even be determined what body fluid or tissue it was. The other problem was the samples were often mixed, possibly from three different people, but that is interesting in itself!
I gained the impression that samples were analysed both in Pt and UK and the FSS would not be allowed to destroy those samples. I also specifically recall Stu Prior was wanting some of those samples held back and if they were I really dread to think what they were..or at least what they think they may be.
There was an interesting report in the press in about Jan, they could now differentiate different humans from a mixed DNA sample and that did give me some hope there could be further progress, let us hope so!
I still think the progress will more likely be in connection with financial transactions, false sightings and contacts he has built up, but with someone like BK behind him and a bottomless pit of money that is a real problem.
Speaking of which, I think BK is probably funding the action against TB and he will get a writ very shortly. These people who think he will be allowed to start arguing the whys and wherefores in the criminal action are very misguided, as in Pt it will be a straightforward issue, you have continued to insist Maddie died in the apt and look what the PT AG says, clear and simple really, the McCanns will not have to prove or disprove anything, all the lengthy letters in the world cannot transform the simplicity of it. TB will have a straight choice, back down and shut up or be bankrupted. BK can fund any amount of costs for the McCanns, Tony has no money so far as I am aware.
Today's Daily Mail
Last updated at 12:31 PM on 21st September 21
Detectives released this computer generated image of a woman, said to resemble Victoria Beckham
Kate and Gerry McCann say they have received 1,000 reports following their appeal over a Victoria Beckham lookalike who may be connected to the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine.
Investigators for the family want to trace the woman, said to resemble Victoria Beckham, who asked a witness at a Spanish marina if he was there to deliver her 'new daughter'.
The well-dressed woman was described as possibly having an Australian accent and appeared agitated.
The McCann family's private detectives are following up on 1,000 calls and emails received since last month, including many which investigators describe as 'viable leads'.
'At the start of August this year, our investigators appealed to the general public for more information following a credible account by a witness,' said the McCanns on their website.
'This related to a lady acting suspiciously in Barcelona on May 7, 2007 in the early hours of the morning.
'Our investigators received approximately 1,000 emails and phone calls following this appeal and have been busy working through this information', they added.
'Thank you to everybody who passed information on to our team. We would like to encourage anyone who may still have potentially relevant information to come forward.
'It is important to note that although the witness thought that the woman in question may have had an Australian accent, it is possible that this may not be the case.'
A spokesman for the New South Wales Police Force had said: 'A Sydney woman provided a formal statement to detectives at a Sydney police station.
'She claims to know the identity
of the woman being sought by the private investigators attached to the McCann family.
Hunt for Madeleine: Detectives are following up on 1,000 calls and emails following their appeal over a Victoria Beckham lookalike
'New South Wales Police Force will forward the information received to the Australian Federal Police for follow up.'
Madeleine was nearly four when she went missing from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3, 2007 while her parents dined with friends nearby.
Just over 72 hours later, two British men saw the woman in question while on a night out in the popular Port Olimpic Marina in Barcelona.
After speaking to one of the witnesses the woman went into a bar next door, where she had a heated conversation with a local in what seemed to be fluent Spanish.
Meanwhile the McCanns say they are relieved that a Portuguese judge banned further sales or publication of a book by a former policeman that claims Madeleine is dead.
The book, The Truth of the Lie by Goncalo Amaral is subject to an injunction.
Mr Amaral worked on the investigation into the disappearance but was removed from the case after criticising British police.
'Nothing can be more soul-destroying for a parent than for somebody to "write off" your missing child for whatever reason without any evidence to support such a theory,' said the McCanns.
'The anguish and torment that we have suffered as a result of Mr Amaral's unfounded claims and actions has been immense, compounding the pain and sadness we feel every day without Madeleine in our lives.
'Madeleine deserves so much more than treatment like this. She is still missing and we will never give upon her,' they added.
'It is important to remember that the good people far outweigh the bad, even though those with cruel intentions can bring you down.
'Every day we still receive a small bundle of supportive letters to our home and kind messages via the website, as well as positive words from passers-by.
'After a "not so good" day, it is this kindness and solidarity that lifts us up and keeps us going.
'To those people, we
Good Morning,
Today’s Mail article copied above is from a McCann press release copied almost word for word.
So….now two women are now being sought – a woman hovering near apartment 5A PdL (a hooker waiting for business?) and an Australian women in Spain (drug addict looking for a score?).
If these women exist is it likely they will come forward – imo no.
Is the Australian woman in anyway connected to MBM – imo no.
Was the PdL hooker involved with MBM’s disappearance - imo no.
The Mc’s are really scraping the barrel with these leads – still both deflect attention away from them which is no doubt the purpose of the exercise.
Hiya Wiz and thanks for those.
We would like to encourage anyone who may still have potentially relevant information to come forward.
'It is important to note that although the witness thought that the woman in question may have had an Australian accent, it is possible that this may not be the case.'
Is it credible or realistic that two and a half years later there could be any witness cruel enough to continue to withhold some vital lead about Madeleine?
And this vagueness, deliberate, creeps back in, they not so subtly point out, ah but she may not even be Australian. Of course they know the script, this will be another fantasy yarn to provide that so called reasonable element of doubt that entitles them to be considered innocent. Are the really going to waste Aus Police time on this?
As far as the sighting of this woman near the apt goes, I rather thought it was Jane Tanner with her darkish hair and dressed in that purple top, because Wilkins says that when he came out earlier that evening he saw her standing there. Quite what she was doing is another matter, but I do not think it was actually touting for business wiz, watch our for the libel writes, mate:-))
I am sure Goncalo did ultimately disagree with the views formed by the British Police as to what happened to Madeleine, but that certainly does not mean they think the McCanns are innocent IMO,
*writs* even, I think my computer corrects what it considers to be incorrect spelling, how very dare it!
Hi Viv,
have you ever thought there might be more to life than inventing imaginary 'evidence', twisting and distorting the facts, and posting spiteful, nasty, pointless, empty, unpleasant, vindictive, scurrilous and just plain wrong comments about a missing child's family?
you could try cleaning toilets.
What is wrong with cleaning toilets???
Hi all
Hope
Nothing wrong with cleaning toilets.
Perhaps Rosie should remember that is what she/he accused Doc of doing!
Hi DI
Oh god I forgot about that LOL
I wonder if she ever read a copy of his book he was writing???
Maybe she never cleans hers???
xxx
Hi Hope
What is going on? I cannot access MM forum or MF they say they are down! Joana thankfully is still up and running.
I honestly believe the McCann's will not stop until they have silenced the while of the internet. They cannot allow free speach, too many people will get to know the real truth of what happened that night.
The while of the internet LOL, whole, tired Gran.
Hi Di
I have not tried any of them...
They could shut everything down if they wanted to but as we all can e mail each other now talk on hotmail or Skype just how do they expect to catch us all???
Oh gosh then there is the telephone and letters to each other and meeting in person of course are we to be banned from speaking to each other now???
The odd thing is the more they react the more people I dont expect to make a comment do.
Take the last documentry with Tanner being told she did not see Gerry where she said she did I went to a BBQ in the summer and someone brought it up and loads of people were saying they did not belive Madeleine had been abducted most thought there was an accident that had to be covered up...
Do we live in a police state now where soon we have to praise crap parents everyday???
I am afraid public opinion is against them which if Madeleine is really missing is tragic but they only have themselves to blame that people dont belive them asking for the case to be re opened would be a start Kate answering questions for her child would be another positive
Actualy I am not really sure why they are against web sites many you have to be a member of to view them and if you look at the amount of people posting it is not a great percentage of the population by suing they are encouraging people to try and find the sites themselves...???
Hola ClaudiO and thanks for your sensible advice, sorry I could not answer you sooner I have been heavily engaged in scrubbing the toilet (you could eat your meal off it now) and mopping and polishing the floors. I wish I had not been so trendy and got rid of the carpets.
xxxxx
ps Do you feel happy as a Clone? There is probably something deep and psychological going on there, suggest you seek help to address your self esteem, jmo, of course xx
Payne suspected of paedophilia
Twelve days after Maddie disappeared, a couple revealed the strange behaviour of one of the group’s members. Testimonies only reached the Judiciária in January this year
David Payne, one of the McCanns’ friends that were on holidays in the Algarve on the 3rd of May last year, when Madeleine disappeared, was suspected of paedophile behaviours.
The accusations were brought by a couple of friends that spent their holidays with part of the group in the summer of 2005 – themselves also English doctors. Twelve days after the British girl disappeared, Katherina and Arul could no longer keep the secret that had bothered them for two years and went to the police to make a statement. They revealed two conversations between Dave and Gerry, during which both revealed suspicious behaviour and indiciated sex with minors.
According to what CM was able to establish, the depositions were given on the 16th of May. But they only entered the process in January 2008 and are included in the 13th volume of the process files. At that point in time, Kate and Gerry were already arguidos, the rogatory letters had already been issued and the English, including Dave, showed their reluctance in returning to Portugal.
Touching the nipple
Katherina made a statement that was eight pages long. She reported holidays in Mallorca with several English [people], including the McCanns and the Paynes. Two incidents left her with serious doubts about the friends’ behaviour and lead her to create suspicions that were never confirmed.
The first one happened on a night when Gerry and Dave were talking about Maddie. Katherina does not know what they were saying but she remembers that Dave sucked on his fingers, pushing them into the mouth and pulling them out again, while his other hand traced a circle around the nipple, with a circular movement over the clothes. “That was done in a provocative manner”, recalls Katherina, who says that it stuck to her memory.
Days later, the scene repeated itself. The doctor saw Dave making the same gestures again, while he talked about his own daughter. Scared, Katherina said nothing about the incident. But she took special caution, asking her husband never to let the doctor come close to the bathroom when her daughter was having a bath.
Arul went to the police to tell the same story. Katherina’s companion confirmed the gestures that were made by Dave during the conversation with Gerry but asserted that he wasn’t aware that they were talking about Maddie. He did find the behaviour in extremely bad taste, but didn’t see it being repeated.
The incident ended up forgotten in his memory and it was only the disappearance of Madeleine, who had also been with them on the Mallorca vacation, that revived it.
During the deposition, Katherina went even further and said she had associated the gestures to someone who likes to watch child pornography. “I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a different manner”, she concluded.
Friends from school days
Arul and Kate were friends from their school days. They have known each other for approximately 20 years and that was the motive that led the couple to accompany the McCanns on their holidays to Mallorca. Arul and Katherina did not know Fiona and Dave and they only met again once, during a dinner that gathered several couples. When Maddie disappeared from the Ocean Club, Katherina remembered the incident in Mallorca. And she immediately tried to verify whether Dave had again been accompanying the McCann couple, as the suspicions about his behaviour still stood. In the deposition that was made to the English police, Katherina says she decided to give a statement when she saw the tv images. Dave was among the same holiday group.
Doubts in the case
Irishman not heard – An Irishman who was spending holidays in Praia da Luz also went to the English police to report that on the night of the 3rd of May he saw Gerry carrying Madeleine towards the beach. He was never heard through a rogatory letter.
Sending delayed – The difference between the date when the deposition was obtained and the time when it was sent is not explained in the process.CM knows that the English authorities did not provide an explanation, either.
Bank account info – The PJ tried to know the bank account situation of every element of the group, in order to search for possible motives for the crime. But the English answers were laconic and did not help the investigation.
Life stories – The life stories of Gerry and Kate McCann remain unknown. The PJ tried to verify whether Maddie’s mother suffered from depression but never received her clinical records, because the judge did not allow it.
Kate accused of conditioning the case
An intercalary report from the Polícia Judiciária, which was produced immediately before Kate and Gerry were made arguidos, accuses Madeleine’s parents of having conditioned the investigation. The document is signed by an inspector and was directed to Gonçalo Amaral, who was then coordinating the process.
The investigator then stated that the information that had been collected initially, was worked by the group in order to sustain the abduction theory. He guarantees that they all lied to protect themselves and even suggests that some could have been covering the crime up.
The testimony from Janne Turner [sic], who guarantees that she saw a man crossing the street with a child in his arms, is also questioned. The policeman said that Janne [sic] was only two or three metres away from Gerry but he failed to see the man. And that, by stating that the man was headed towards Murat’s house, she ended up orienting the investigation into a false direction, which led to an unnecessary waste of time.
The same report exposes other contradictions in the English’s depositions. Kate and Gerry say that they picked up their children from the crèche at 5.30 p.m., but while the former guarantees that they went for a half-hour run on the beach and only then returned to the apartment, her husband states that they went to play tennis during that period.
After that, at around 8 p.m., one of the elements of the group reportedly went to the apartment that had been rented by the couple. Kate says that he was there only for 30 seconds and then left. Gerry speaks about half an hour. The policeman remembers that the time difference is what is needed between asking whether everything is well, or advancing in case a crime has to be concealed.
Another situation that the authorities found strange was the fact that Kate, upon realizing that Maddie had disappeared, remained inside the apartment for ten minutes. Only then did she ask for help, leaving the twins asleep in their cots while she returned to the restaurant. The policeman who wrote the report asks how it is possible that a mother facilitates the safety of her other children when it is certain that by that time she was already screaming that her daughter had been abducted.
They could not see the apartment
Another contradiction was pointed out by the inspector who was in charge of the Maddie case. The policeman remembered that the McCanns asserted that their position inside the restaurant was a strategic one, so they could see the apartment where their children were sleeping. But according to several testimonies, Kate and Gerry had their backs turned to the apartment.
Image
Image
from the same page:
PJ admitted a simulation of the scenario
The arrival of the dogs that detected cadaver odours and blood traces led the PJ to admit that some of the details where Maddie had been sleeping had been staged to sustain the abduction theory. One of the examples that were pointed out in one of the many reports that were written by the investigators was the fact that the soft toy was on the bed where Maddie slept, a bed that was partially undone. The animals detected odours on the child’s toy, but they did not mark her death on that spot. Which led the PJ to admit that Maddie had died in another area of the house, and then the toy was taken to the bed because it was the most likely spot in case of an abduction. Other details were analysed, like the fact that the furniture was too well positioned and the sofa was completely pushed against the wall.
Details
* Investigated leads – The final report is clear. All the leads were investigated, the abduction theory was verified into detail. But the investigation’s main conclusions pointed towards the death of the child in the apartment, on the 3rd of May.
* 300 policemen were looking for Madeleine McCann during the first days. The PJ stresses that many among them spent several weeks sleeping only a few hours.
* 2000 diligences were made by the Judiciária during their search for Madeleine. International cooperation was requested on several moments, to exclude several cases of false sightings.
* High costs – The PJ spared no costs throughout this investigation. Millions of euros were spent on the investigation into the disappearance, namely on the high payments that were made to the labs that collected the genetic profiles.
* Suspicions – Dave’s involvement is considered again
Parents refused technical help
Works with endangered children and approached the McCanns in the Algarve. Found the behaviour strange
Yvone, who earned credentials from the English government to work in situations that involve endangered children, was in the Algarve when Maddie disappeared but the McCanns refused her help. The specialist told the PJ, during two depositions that were made one month apart from each other, that she approached the couple after the first few hours and that the behaviour from both left her with suspicions about their involvement in the disappearance.
The behaviour of David Payne, who was accused by a couple of doctors that spent holidays with him in 2005, of having attitudes that indiciated paedophile practices, also left Yvone intrigued. The McCanns’ friend had called them aside and advised them not to speak to the technician.
Yvone found another detail strange. David’s face was not unfamiliar to her, and the technician believes he might have been inquired before, within some case of sexual abuse. She tried to remember when but failed to locate moment and the circumstances under which she had met him.
The days went by and Yvone continued to think about the issue. She then sent a letter to the English police, where she pointed out the details that she had perceived. Namely, that the bedroom window had not been forced open, that it was not normal for a couple of doctors to leave their children alone and that Kate had reacted in an aggressive manner when she had approached her. She also alerted to the official statistics, that point towards the majority of these cases to involve a cover-up from the families.
Gonçalo Amaral’s book upsets the English
A delegation from the British justice left for London yesterday after having tried, in Portimão, to keep some details of the process under secrecy.
The English, who according to what CM was able to establish, are upset about possible revelations that the book from the former coordinator of the PJ in Portimão may make, tried to request the instruction judge to maintain the secrecy on the forensics reports about the blood traces and cadaver odour that were collected from the apartment at the Ocean Club, but also other parts from the process.
As far as CM was able to establish, the pretentions from the English delegation were denied, except in the case of the identity of persons that have condemnations or a police record of paedophilia which reside in the Algarve or were spending holidays in the region when the facts took place.
The British that were in Portimão are policeman Stuart Prior, one of the senior liaison officers with the Portuguese police, a magistrate and a jurist from SOCA, the British agency that specializes in investigation organized crime.
It is not known whether the trip was made under a rogatory letter or politically negotiated between the governments of both countries.
“In defense of my good name”
The book by Gonçalo Amaral is written in defense of his honour. “I felt the need to reinstate my good name, which was publicly rubbished while the institution that I belonged to for 26 years, the Polícia Judiciária, didn’t allow me to defend myself, or did so institutionally”, Gonçalo Amaral states in a text that justifies the book. In order to carry out that defense, he requested permission from the national directory but never obtained it. The book, which will be presented by Marques Vidal, a former director of the Judiciária, is launched on the 24th of this month, during a session that is scheduled for El Corte Inglés, in Lisbon.
Loose notes:
Laboratory | Decisive test – The final report ended up being decisive for the foreseeable archiving of the process. In that document, which CM revealed, the possibility of DNA contamination was admitted.
Archived | AG announced – The day after tomorrow, the AG will release a communication that will most likely announce the archiving of the process. The case will remain pending in Portimão’s Public Ministry, waiting for better evidence.
Reconstitution | Stopped – The reconstitution of the evening of the disappearance was a diligence that was seen as essential in the process. It was stopped because some of the McCanns’ friends did not accept to return.
Wardrobe | Odour detected – The English dogs signaled traces of Maddie’s death behind the sofa and in the bedroom wardrobe. On the bed, the animals didn’t detect anything.
Contamination | Traces – The authorities have no doubts that the contamination of the location made the investigation more difficult. During the first few hours, tens of people entered the bedroom.
Removed | By phone – Gonçalo Amaral was the target of various attacks and was removed by Alípio Ribeiro, by phone, after making a statement to a newspaper.
Letter | Paedophile register – Yvone, in the letter that she sent to the English police, wanted the authorities to verify whether Dave had a register of paedophile activities.
source: Correio da Manhã 19.07.2008, paper edition
Madeleine Foundation webpage has been offline since last night but Debbie Butler says it is coming back.
What next I wonder?
I was wondering if it was something to do with the McCanns perhaps trying to suggest that in addition to libelling they are saying it is interfering with their "trademark" on Madeleine which they set up just fourteen days after losing her, no doubts about their long term plans even at that stage was there? As Gerry said to Jane Hill BBC in their first interview, the Fund had enabled them to get a really good team of lawyers together, and boy they have always needed them. Social services and advice for people suffering missing children, what like Amber Alert and Kate going into that line of work, and yes, this was just TWO WEEKS LATER. There is something very sinister about this couple, I have no problems in saying that! And when they keep on using those lawyers, they ought to think how man big cans of worms they are opening!
McCann trademark
The campaign to find Madeleine McCann has applied for British and European trademarks to protect its fundraising, internet and print promotions. The applications, which were filed on May 18, seek to protect the name “Madeleine’s Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned”. The European application also seeks protection for the provision of social services and advice for people affected by missing children.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2253559.ece
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