Hiya, it would be great if you could post new information here to keep us all updated - as it is the only way we get some decent news! We could just keep this running so that people know where to come!
Hope you see this and can help.
Thanks
Viv x
24/1/08 18.21
33 comments:
Hi Viv, recommend these posts from Alsabella on 3As, all three pages.
http://www.the3arguidos.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1827&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
includes a post in reply to her from Alias re the Spanish situation.
Hiya Eureka
Going to have an early night but thanks so much for that to get this thread going. Will certainly check it out in the morning.
Luv Viv x
21.35
Have read the post on the 3a and it is VERY interesting viv, well worth a look.
Hope docmac is now OK.
21.46
Hi Viv, thanks, be aware of the post by mercedes2 23/1 on 3As from Docmac's thread. Says he's heard the worst about Maddy, no details. Doesn't wish to preempt any legal process. Perhaps a long wait now for official confirmation.
eureka, you will find docmacs sad post on this blog possibly in the third or fourth set of comments.
Hi Viv
Sure thing.
Here is what I posted on 3 arguidos, which is the latest info I know. I did not think to post it here, because it is very long, but as long as you don't mind, I have no problem posting things here either.
Here you go:
There was a program on Portuguese tv (As Tardes da Júlia, TVI) with Paulo Reis (the journalist most of you have already heard about), Cristovão Pereira, former PJ detective and currently the President of the Portuguese National PJ Association, and Mrs Cipriano (I forgot her first name, oops) the Vice-President of the Portuguese National PJ Association.
Interesting Program:
Besides explaining the spin that has been going on, the following was said that I thought was worth noting:
- The former Portuguese PJ officer, now the Head of the National Missing Children's Association has just stated on tv that he was offered by a British TV Station the possibility of doing a daily half-hour report from Praia da Luz to comment on the Madeleine case. He agreed. They then told him they did not follow the line of investigation that the PJ was following (interpret this as you wish). He says he then told them that he agreed with the current line of investigation the PJ was following and that as a response he was told that money was no object. They then offered him 2,500 euro/day to basically criticise people he says he admires, the institution he was a part of at one point and of which he was proud, his country, and the line of investigation and methods being followed.
- the Rogatory Letters have been sent to Eurojust. (In all fairness to the UK judicial system, on the program I have just heard, it stated that in situations like this, that involve more than one country, sometimes these letters rogatory, after being sent take years, no matter what the country in question. It depends on how quickly the UK Ministry of Justice of the receiving country expedites them to the police and then how quickly the police act on them).
- Paulo Reis did some freelance work for the Times. He parted company with them due to "editorial differences"...
- The Vice-President of the National Missing Person's Association stated that mothers will be mothers, no matter what country they are from - and the suffering of a British mother shows through as does one of a Portuguese mother. To her, the question of cultural differences as an excuse for not showing emotion makes no sense. British mothers are the same as Portuguese mothers - they love and suffer for their children the same.
- It was highlighted that in October the Prosecutor's Office did not allow further questioning until there was more information. Now, they have allowed and sent the letters rogatory. This means that further evidence has in the meantime been gathered.
This was the information I found most interesting, although they also mentioned that in June, Gerry was already planning the first year anniversary as if he knew Madeleine would not be found, that Alex W. from MW, stated in October that in the early days the McCanns thought Madeleine had wandered off and someone had found her - although publicly the ALWAYs stated she was abducted, etc, etc.
Hi Alsabella
Thanks for the update. I am a regular viewer on the DX site but have never had the courage to post. I always find your posts extremely interesting and informative. It amazes me how you deal with the pro's, always in a professional manner always keeping your cool, The voice of reason. I usually just scan through HYS looking for you, Ironside and Docmac. It's brilliant that you are now posting here. Much easier to keep track of, than trawling back through pages of rubbish.
Last night I e-mailled David Cameron ( Leader of the Conservative Party ) Regarding the Government involvement, and pointed out a few things that I thought he might be interested to know. Asked him to ask Gordon Brown at the next Prime Ministers Question Time, what his involvement is in the case. I wrote to my MP weeks ago but have still had no reply. I will let you know if I get a reply. Don,t expect one but at least I feel like I am doing my bit.
Please keep posting.
Justice for Madeline
yogaden 8.00am
Hello Yogaden,
Thank you very much for your kind words.
I think it is wonderful that you e-mailed D. Cameron and your MP. If we all do our tiny bit, in our own way, perhaps we will be able to prevent what seems to be to be a very obvious attempt at manipulating justice.
Alone we are but a drop of water, but together, we are an ocean...
Stay well, and look forward to reading you!
Hello, dear Viv and all.
No news from Portugal, except what you already know: the "creepy guy" or at least one of the many there are has got a criminal record. Nothing to do with madeleine though. I guess the McCanns will have to find another one. And I'm sure they will.
I posted this earlier today on the DX.
THIS IS A RUMOUR I READ.
25.01.08, 11:38am
I stress that it is ONLY a rumour. That I read on another forum.
And no, I DON'T have links.
Poor Madeleine fell off the settee and broke her neck. Hence the spinal fluid on the walls/tiles.
Her wee body was then dismembered and burnt. There is no longer a body for the PJ to find.
I reserve my own judgement on all of the above. But that's what I heard and the person whom I heard it from certainly believes it to be true.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Precisely one hour later, it was removed, with this comment.
***This message has been deleted***
Published: Friday January 25,2008 by ratonthebeam
***INAPPROPRIATE AND GRAPHIC CONTENT WILL BE REMOVED***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Considering that there have been lots of posts over the months, that have been MUCH more inappropriate and graphic than mine, and that have been left to stand,
I will leave you to draw your own conclusions.
Posted by rat 17:30
I posted this earlier today on the DX.
THIS IS A RUMOUR I READ.
25.01.08, 11:38am
I stress that it is ONLY a rumour. That I read on another forum.
And no, I DON'T have links.
Poor Madeleine fell off the settee and broke her neck. Hence the spinal fluid on the walls/tiles.
Her wee body was then dismembered and burnt. There is no longer a body for the PJ to find.
I reserve my own judgement on all of the above. But that's what I heard and the person whom I heard it from certainly believes it to be true.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Precisely one hour later, it was removed, with this comment.
***This message has been deleted***
Published: Friday January 25,2008 by ratonthebeam
***INAPPROPRIATE AND GRAPHIC CONTENT WILL BE REMOVED***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Considering that there have been lots of posts over the months, that have been MUCH more inappropriate and graphic than mine, and that have been left to stand,
I will leave you to draw your own conclusions.
Posted by rat 17:30
Hi Everyone!
Thanks so much Alsabella. The former PJ Officer was offered a highly paid job reporting on UK TV subject to the caveat that he had to forget what he wanted to report and give it the demanded spin. I am afraid this is just typical of what goes on in the UK. Even news and documentary type programmes are misleading and biased, rather than honest and accurate. Alistair Campbell, the former Tony Blair chief spinner has unleashed a whole army of dishonest reporters only interested in convincing people of their argument rather than the truth. A high proportion of the British public are not so stupid that they are just going to lap this up and believe what they are told like morons. So many have degrees and have learned to be discerning - seeking information from a variety of sources on one particular topic and analysing the information to give a balanced and informed view rather than just blindly accepting one biased source. Others are gifted with natural intelligence and can read between the lines.
I believe if there is one thing the general public have learned from the McCann case it is that people like Clarence Mitchell work to manipulate the news that we hear and it is not always capable of belief and so often they only report what they want us to hear! It is interesting also that Mr Reiss also parted company with the Times for the same reason. Some of the their articles have been just sickening McCann propaganda - for what is supposed to be one of our leading newspapers this is very disappointing - but there again they also produce The Sun!!!
I entirely agree there is no cultural difference as to how a mom would react bereft of her child. Portuguese and British moms would be equally in absolute despair. It was very insulting to British moms to try and suggest we would react with the abject coldness of Kate McCann or that psychologists had advised her to act this way. When you are overcome with raw emotion over the loss of your beloved child - terriefied of what may be happening to her you cannot just turn it on and off like a tap!
It has always been my view that back in October the prosecutor was right to point out that all the evidence currently available had been put to the McCanns and so nothing could be achieved by interviewing them again. I am also clear that given the evidence at that time - he did not feel a conviction could be assured and wanted far more work to be - evidence to be produced and then this could be put to the McCanns. This is precisely what has now happened. Also the DNA evidence has been verified by repeating the tests - if the same results are produced on three occasions - this elevates the results to certainty rather than indicative as before. We know from that convictions in the UK that have stood purely on DNA evidence are shaky and may get overturned on appeal - this is why the PJ have worked to get far more than that and it is quite clear they do have far more to now put firstly to the friends and then when the further evidence from the friends analysed for weaknesses the McCanns. It is a clearly established rule of evidence that inconsistent prior statements seriously weaken witness testimony and can be evidence of lying.
Gerry, planning the first anniversary event in June was utterly damning wasn't it - this man is nowhere near as smart as he likes to think!
As I thought your post on the proper news would generate a great thread - I can see that it has. I have always been impressed when reading Portuguese papers that they fairly just present the news for what it is - including what is being said in various papers in the UK - they do not simply seek to pursue the prosecution agenda.
Thanks so much for that
Luv Viv x
Hiya Yogaden
I am pleased you like this site because you do not have to read through pages of rubbish to get to the helpful and intelligent comments. I am very fortunate that I have some of the very best from the DE posting on here and as you say Alsabella is certainly one of them. The way she manages to maintain her calm when coming under sustained attack on the DE is quite incredible - nothing stops her from delivering clear, intelligent and well informed news and opinion. The best posters on the DE do of course suffer the most sustained attack - this only shows them up for what they are in their desperation to quieten details concerning the McCanns guilt of which there can be no doubt.
I am pleased you have emailed David Cameron - using the parliamentary system of adversarial questions and answers in the Commons is a good way to get further information - although I think it will be limited for obvious reasons. We would not want the McCanns to shout we cannot get a fair trial even the government and the opposition are against us!
Viv x
Hiya Rat
Lazarus, Rosie and Alroy in particular have repeatedly made the most appalling grisly comments on the Daily Express and they very rarely get removed. The clear bias in favour of the Pro-McCanns is quite sickening.
Luv Viv x
Hiya Alsabella - just read your post below - WHAT NEW CHARGES HAVE THE PJ ADDED - I WAS NOT AWARE OF THIS! In UK law the only way it could have been "accidental" is if they left Maddie alone and something happened to her causing her death - we would call this gross negligence manslaughter. If, for example, Gerry hit Maddie, bashing her head up the wall and caused her death this may be manslaughter (recklessness) or murder (intentional) depending on what his state of mind was when he did this. Most cases like this are manslaughter - if intention to kill or cause serious bodily harm cannot be proved.
I would query the likelihood of Maddie dying by accident whilst left alone because the body was obviously moved from the apartment in between 9 and 10 and they never even got the restaurant until 9 according to most of their friends so there was just no time for Maddie to die and be removed - she must have been dead before they left for the TAPAS.
Also if she had so quickly been removed the dogs would not have picked up the scent of a corpse. I do not think we will hear what the PJ really thought happened until they are charged. But perhaps you could confirm if they are thinking of making a more serious charge would they have to make them arguidos on a different charge. I am struggling with them being made arguidos and being charged. Can they only charge them for what they are arguidos for ?
Surely there are many more charges to come - there would have to be a charge of fraud? If they knew Maddie was already dead - it was deliberate fraud to set up the find maddie fund and accept money from the public.
Thanks
Viv x
Thanks Viv x
The Italian Carabinieri believe that Foxy Noxy and pals MURDERED the British girl, may God rest her soul.
WHo ever said that the McCanns murdered Madeleine??? Not the PJ. Not even now, that they have apparently added charges, has any of them been that one.
• Posted by: a
Viv
What we are hearing here is that the charges of wasting police time and perjury are being added to accidental death and concealment of a body. This is being reported as being part of the interim report handed over by PJ to the Prosecutor's Office. It was after this that the PJ were allowed to send out the rogatory letters by the Prosecutor's (leading us, thus to believe there was more evidence).
Personally, I do not believe the McCanns murdered or killed their daughter. I believed she died as an accident, but that the accident was caused by something that would put them in a very bad light and possibly ruin their reputation (not prepared to say what, although I have an opinion). I believe what then ensued was an attempt to save themselves at all costs - damage control - that got way out of hand when they contacted their well-meaning relatives that began a campaign that has certainly backfired against the McCanns.
Hiya Alsabella thanks so much for your quick response!
I am afraid this is another example of how badly informed we are in the UK of the real news. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but something so relevant and interesting just has not been reported here. No doubt, because it looks so grim for the McCanns.
Wasting police time would obviously include the latest demands made re Cooperman ..I think he has deliberately been re-cast 'pig man' which sounds offensive. I cannot remember his name - forgive. Perjury I am not surprised There has been a concerted effort to avoid, pervert, or defeat justice. They have drew others in and their activities were clearly intended to do serious harm to the administration of justice. These are very serious aggravating features of the original offence.
I am pleased you have confirmed the interim report filed with further evidence has led to the rogatory letters being sent to Eurojust and really hope there will not be too much delay before the further interviews actually take place. Clearly the PJ/Brit Police are now in their hands as to timing. Rosie & Co on behalf of the McCanns choose to re-interpret this with the simplistic and oft-repeated cry: "well why have they not been charged then!".. Either a basic lack of understanding of the most simple legal principles or a complete unwilling to even want to know - suspect a bit of both!
Ah, I see you are as tantalising as Docmac - wisely keeping your own counsel on precise detail. I certainly respect your view on that - and the additional information you have always had access to.
I feel Philomena was certainly well-meaning in her intention to start a money spinning propaganda campaign! All those mobile calls to various relatives was a mistake on Gerry's part because they have then contradicted his explanations for no forensic evidence of any break-in/abductor. Overall you do seem to have a slightly more charitable attitude to the McCanns conduct than I do. Whatever - they are in very serious trouble and clearly culpable for Madeleine's death/disposal of her body and then a very serious criminal conspiracy to cover all that up. Wherever they face justice a very harsh view is going to be taken of their conduct.
thanks again Alsabella, your posts are always so informative and welcome.
Viv x
For a very good academic article concerning UK law on Perjury and Perverting the Course of Justice, case examples and penalties see:
http://www.buckingham.ac.uk/publicity/academics/articles/edwards-paptcojc.pdf
e.g. In Huntley he was charged with two counts of murder. Both he and Maxine Carr were also charged on the indictment of perverting the course of justice - a common law offence with a maximum penalty of life imprisonment but in reality the highest sentence given for this offence is 10 years. Maxine Carr received 3 years - so watch out Jane Tanner! More specifically OB assisting an offender the sentence is likely to be much higher...Coercion of a wife by a husband i.e. by threats of violence will mitigate the sentence for the wife..
Viv x
Maybe I am wrong and am sure doc will correct me if so.......After reading his latest post my thoughts are that whatever happened is more horrific than an accident.
Hiya Alsabella - I wonder if I could trouble you to inform about this when you hear more - thanks so much Viv 8.49 am Sat 26/01/08 (or you Ironside!! - thank goodness for our Portuguese and Spanish contributors - also any update on Mari Luz - other thread.
TOMORROW
26.01.08, 1:24am
You will have more news on a new sketchman. This time, from the Tavira/Castro de Marim area
• Posted by: alsabelIa
Anon - I believe it is more horrific than an accident but you will see that Alsabella does not and the PJ are still talking about causing accidental death. Maybe we need to keep an open mind as to precisely what they did.
Viv x
I heard from another source - NOT Docmac - that the body was dismembered and burnt. That's why there is no body for the PJ to find. Hence, "find the body and prove we killed her".
Up until now I had, like Alsabella,given the McScamms the benefit of the doubt, believing that the poor wee thing had died in some sort of accident.
Now, I'm not so sure. My attitude has hardened over the last couple of days. Now, I'm starting to think it might have been a deliberate killing, God forbid.
Rat, I think your feelings seem to be echoed on forums in general.
Morning Viv
You were getting a battering on the DX last night (well on a clear day was) You are truly a ledgend on there and you dont even post any more...
Amazing all the people that laugh at this blog then quote it word for word (If I think something is rubbish I dont bother reading it)...
Docmac is also in this for his 15 minutes of fame for his sad post the other night. Two things made me shake my head at this the first was someone asked why he haddent posted it on the DX and he was just looking for atention (if you want atention he would have posted it there and stayed on line to debate it...
Secondly do these deluded idiots actually think any of us are getting 15 minutes or any fame out of this it is a bloody blog??? HYS just that we have made up names (sorry to disapoint everyone but my parents did not say ooooooh lets call her hope4truth it will come in handy when she is famous on HYS) so no one knows who we are anyway????
I cant think of much to say anymore it is the same old arguments on there but I wont leave it because there are some people on there that make sense and Madeleine needs a voice her parents can spin for themselves and are very vocal about how great they are....
All very sad I hope there is some real news soon this has to end it is so very sad.
Docmacs post the other night was so sad we would all love to see her returned but know in out hearts she wont...
10.23
Viv ..... Rat
Viv just re read my post I did not mean that you are on a clear day just that assasin thought she was you sorry....
Hi Rat how are you??? Where did you hear about her being burnt it is all so sad... I wonder what really want on when she so say went missing poor little girl...
Kate and Gerry have not been in the spotlight recently I wonder why this is?? When CM did his (sack me now I am hopeless) presentation last Sunday I would have expected Gerry at least to be stood in camera shot but nothing for ages now (unless I missed something)???
10.28
12.15
RE: DX BIAS
I, too, believe there is a considerable bias towards the Pros, but I also think this is mixed in with some common or garden ineptitude...
...the person I spoke to the other day when I called up about having been suspended for being cloned ("Sorry, DX, I won't be a victim again") was very pleasant, but she didn't seem to have much of a grasp of what was going on.
And the other day Lazarus and I were sparring when he got annoyed about a reference to him going to the pub. Defensive about a 'drink problem' he said Leigh3 and I had 'invented', he then said: "What about my closet homosexuality?". Naturally, I replied "What ABOUT your closet homosexuality?", and my post was removed for 'laying into another poster'!
But whilst I don't think the moderators necessarily keep up their Mensa subscriptions, I do agree there is an intrinsic bias towards the Nasties.
That's funny, I made a joke about Laz borrowing Clarrie's pink shirts, just immediately after that, and he responded in the same spirit. Both of THESE posts were left!
posted by rat 12:59
14.27
Rat,
Do you suppose the DX are Pro-Pro and Anti-Penguin?
That's REALLY unacceptable...
:)
alsabella
You were right, in the express today it has stated that sketchman has attempted to abduct 2 girls along the beach, sorry can't remember the area but know that Metado3 are involved. I had expected by weekend for more damning supposed evidence from Team Mcccann to deflect from themselves, you got it exactly right...Lizzy
Hiya ROB I note your attitude to the degree of culpability of the McCanns had hardened in the last few days. This epitomises the abject failure of their "PR campaign" to persuade the public otherwise! I wonder if Gerry and Claris have little quiet words about this...(!)
Kind of reminds me of my mom giving me and my sister a new cooker box to make a tent for us on the lawn - possibly due to the"tent" being a little cramped it was not too long before mom noted the tent getting a bit of a battering and bouncing its way around the lawn with strange loud grunts emanating from it...(!) not very girlish..let us hope Claris and Gerry have plenty of space to air their respective view points on the er success of the campaign - keep up the good work Claris!
Which brings me on rather nicely to a great post of Ironsides on the DE - yes slimy that's the word...he has not contacted me as yet or got my IP (hopefully) ..get a feeling my computer would immediately self-combust!
SLIMY CLARA ON THE WAR PATH
26.01.08, 7:10pm
MCCANN SPOKESMAN 'SATISFIED' BY FORUM CLOSURE
Saturday January 26th 2008
by Justine McGuinness
The Daily Mirror's decision to close a forum on the newspaper's website where users discussed the Madeleine McCann case was today welcomed by the spokesman for the missing toddler's parents.
In a wide-ranging interview to be published in tomorrow's Sunday Times, the former BBC journalist Clarence Mitchell said he was 'satisfied that representations made by us and others to the Mirror hierarchy were acted on and this disgraceful forum closed.'
Several moderators on the Mirror forums have been sacked in the wake of the decision to close the forum amid claims that IP addresses have been passed to the Metodo 3 agency in Spain - a claim which is hotly denied by board administrators.
However, in the course of his interview with this newspaper, Mitchell claims that he is actively seeking to 'track down, charge and make amenable each and every one of those who libelled, not only myself, but Kate and Gerry and their friends. Of that you can be certain.'
Based on investigations by the The Times, many of those who contributed to the forums are being held in secure mental institutions, while others are revealed to be social misfits and cranks.
Furthermore, Mitchell revealed to this newspaper that the image released by him last Sunday was only one of many suspects they hope to track down and eliminate from the inquiry, more photofits are expected in the coming days.
In tomorrow's Sunday Times, Clarence Mitchell reveals:
* His absolute belief in Gerry and Kate McCann's innocence
* His war on 'internet cranks'
* Who he suspects is behind Madeleine's disappearance
* Those rumours concerning a knighthood
(c) The Times
• Posted by: IRONSIDE
Luv to you all
Viv x
22.05
Hey Hope 4 - Dont worry - I know I am not Clear but do like her remarks :-) and admire her strength in the face of adversity - what a great storm trooper she is. The Pros have made themselves look like a right bunch of paranoid idiots by keep on saying that is me!
LGC
I do think the DE try to support animals as best they can but only seem to recognise homo sapien as belonging in that class. Poor Pengy does not stand a chance does he - never mind do him a special fish salad for Sunday lunch as a special treat for all he has had to endure.
Lizzy - Have not read the further McSpam - I just dont know whether I can stand it ! Does Gerry ever have time to sleep in between being a nice kind heart specialist and running his little campaign?
Luv to you all
Viv x
22.18
The post about Mitchell and the Mirror Forum is a wind up post.
ALSABELLA!! What a great response to the nutter on the Daily Express (well one of them) - you really made me laugh!
Love Viv xxxxxxx
-------------------
ASSASIN
27.01.08, 12:11am
Bla bla
• Posted by: alsabelIa • Report Comment
ROSIEPOPS/JAKIRLA/ALSABELLA
27.01.08, 12:09am
my knife is a pickaxe rosie hee hee...
jakirla. lol. dont you worry, ill stay quiet unless i see you need to rage at someone - then ill talk to you and have a good laugh at the reply. I've still got your reply actually, saved it, thought it was an absolute beauty for an article on projection ha ha.Im still pissed off though, it could have been worse - you said wheres their dad, id have thought considering your analysis youd have expected they had six different ones lolol!
alsabella, love the replies, needing to go now though, so have saved them as they are longer and will reply to them tomorrow - agree on so much...
noite noite all take care!
• Posted by: assasin
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