Superdog, Keela
Superdog, Eddie x
Gerry does not use his phone much on holiday..apparently, is that a watch I can see?
Hi All, Bath theory referred me to the case of Eugene Zapata who murdered his wife over 30 years ago but has recently received 5 years (three to serve) on a plea deal rather than face a second trial for murder. The prosecution case largely consisted of circumstantial evidence given the body could not be recovered. Cadaver dogs provided the break through in the police case in 2004 but the reason the jury could not reach a verdict is because the judge ruled the dog evidence unreliable and so they just did not know about it, it was kept from them. This has extraordinary similarities to the McCann case where the police were struggling to gain evidence until Eddie and Keela were brought over from the UK and made their amazing findings.
What is even more extraordinary is this is the very same case that the McCanns lawyers wanted to use in their defence, at the stage where the judge had ruled the dog evidence inadmissible. As we know, McCann supporters have looked to other murder cases and sought to suggest these people were actually innocent in some bizarre attempt to excuse the McCanns. Demonstrating that justice prevails this man has now confessed anyway rather than face a second trial and the dogs have of course proved to be correct. This must have been a truly devastating blow for Kate and Gerry McCann, who just like Zapata, wanted the case "shelved".
It is very sad that Zapata's children were divided over this, his son argued for the defence and his daughter argued for the prosecution. She now says she forgives her father, her mum has truth and justice and she can start to grieve. I am absolutely certain little Madeleine McCann will not have to wait for 30 years for justice and truth or for the world, friends and relatives to know the truth. Kate and Gerry have a choice, face the truth and accept what you did or face a much bigger sentence.
In the end Zapata realised he had no choice. He was an obsessive man, I have read other reports where he kept a "stalker's diary" about his wife, even detailing her menstrual periods and what oral contraception she was on, searching her trash etc, following the break up. The ruling that he could only be in the home for just two hours to see the children clearly indicates he was not safe. Stalkers are known to be highly dangerous people. Domestic violence statistics confirm that when women try to get rid of an abusive partner who then starts to stalk them, these are generally the partners who finish up actually being killed and they get killed following separation because the partner has lost the control he needs to exert. In a furious rage this man made absolutely certain no one else was going to have his wife.
What follows below are extracts from various press reports.
JUSTICE FOR MADDIE X
Jeanette "Jean" Zapata sent her two teenage daughters and 6-year-old son to school shortly after 8 a.m. Oct. 11, 1976. They last saw her as she sat at the kitchen table in their East Side home near La Follette High School wearing blue corduroys and a striped top.
The 36-year-old flight instructor - who was divorcing her husband - was never heard from again.
According to a search warrant executed by police in August but kept sealed until Thursday morning, dogs trained to detect human remains reacted to two locations connected to Eugene Zapata - a crawl space in the couple's former home and a storage locker in Sun Prairie.
Two days after Jeanette Zapata's children saw her for the last time, Ivan Norton, an accountant at Frickleton School of Aeronautics, reported her missing because she hadn't come to work.
"If she told you to make an appointment at a certain time, she was there ahead of schedule to make sure it all went right," Norton, 69, said Thursday. "She was very nice and very prompt and that was the whole thing that was concerning us. She was like a time clock."
Immediately after she disappeared, her purse and other belongings, including her new car, were found at the home, but a .30-06 rifle was missing.
Investigators said in the search warrant:
Officers have questioned Eugene Zapata several times over the past 30 years and he sometimes provided contradictory statements.
Zapata told police he argued with his wife over visitation rights to their children a few days before she disappeared. The day she vanished, they met with the La Follette High School principal to discuss their oldest daughter. One time he told police he called the morning of Oct. 11 to cancel the meeting. On another occasion, he said he went to the house at 9 a.m. to pick her up.
Jean Zapata had obtained a court order that restricted his time with the children in the home to two hours on Saturday mornings.
His employment records at the state Department of Transportation indicate he worked from 7:45 to 8:45 a.m. the day she disappeared, was off work the following day, Oct. 12, and then came in to work at 12:30 p.m. Oct. 13.
He told police he took Oct. 12 off to care for his children at home, but investigators verified the children were at school.
Zapata did not respond to messages from the State Journal asking for an interview. In a 1987 State Journal article, he said he believed his former wife ran away.
"It may have been just the pressure of it because I filed for custody of the kids," Zapata said then. "She was a very strong-willed person. If she made up her mind that she wanted to disappear, she could do it."
Investigators suspected Zapata, but lacking leads they had shelved the case.
It was reactivated a year ago after one of Jean Zapata's childhood friends called asking about its status, Snyder said.
New detection techniques, including "cadaver dogs" that can find faint odors of human remains, pushed the investigation forward.
According to court documents, dogs twice signaled that they had found the scent of human remains in an unused basement crawl space at the Zapatas' former home on Indian Trace, and a human hair was excavated. Police will not say whether test results indicate that it belonged to Jean Zapata.
Eugene Zapata sold the house in 1997. In 2001, he moved to Nevada. He rented a storage facility in Sun Prairie that year and listed its contents as "boxes, mixture of son's and parent's stuff."
According to the search warrant:
On April 13, 2005, police left a message for Eugene Zapata with his wife in Nevada. The next day, the locker's key was returned to U-Store Mini Storage in Sun Prairie. The empty locker remained locked until Aug. 10 and 11 when police opened it.
Dogs detected the scent of decomposing or decomposed human remains inside and around the locker, the search warrant indicates. That prompted a search of four acres in rural Juneau County owned by Zapata since 1978.
The 36-year-old flight instructor - who was divorcing her husband - was never heard from again.
According to a search warrant executed by police in August but kept sealed until Thursday morning, dogs trained to detect human remains reacted to two locations connected to Eugene Zapata - a crawl space in the couple's former home and a storage locker in Sun Prairie.
Two days after Jeanette Zapata's children saw her for the last time, Ivan Norton, an accountant at Frickleton School of Aeronautics, reported her missing because she hadn't come to work.
"If she told you to make an appointment at a certain time, she was there ahead of schedule to make sure it all went right," Norton, 69, said Thursday. "She was very nice and very prompt and that was the whole thing that was concerning us. She was like a time clock."
Immediately after she disappeared, her purse and other belongings, including her new car, were found at the home, but a .30-06 rifle was missing.
Investigators said in the search warrant:
Officers have questioned Eugene Zapata several times over the past 30 years and he sometimes provided contradictory statements.
Zapata told police he argued with his wife over visitation rights to their children a few days before she disappeared. The day she vanished, they met with the La Follette High School principal to discuss their oldest daughter. One time he told police he called the morning of Oct. 11 to cancel the meeting. On another occasion, he said he went to the house at 9 a.m. to pick her up.
Jean Zapata had obtained a court order that restricted his time with the children in the home to two hours on Saturday mornings.
His employment records at the state Department of Transportation indicate he worked from 7:45 to 8:45 a.m. the day she disappeared, was off work the following day, Oct. 12, and then came in to work at 12:30 p.m. Oct. 13.
He told police he took Oct. 12 off to care for his children at home, but investigators verified the children were at school.
Zapata did not respond to messages from the State Journal asking for an interview. In a 1987 State Journal article, he said he believed his former wife ran away.
"It may have been just the pressure of it because I filed for custody of the kids," Zapata said then. "She was a very strong-willed person. If she made up her mind that she wanted to disappear, she could do it."
Investigators suspected Zapata, but lacking leads they had shelved the case.
It was reactivated a year ago after one of Jean Zapata's childhood friends called asking about its status, Snyder said.
New detection techniques, including "cadaver dogs" that can find faint odors of human remains, pushed the investigation forward.
According to court documents, dogs twice signaled that they had found the scent of human remains in an unused basement crawl space at the Zapatas' former home on Indian Trace, and a human hair was excavated. Police will not say whether test results indicate that it belonged to Jean Zapata.
Eugene Zapata sold the house in 1997. In 2001, he moved to Nevada. He rented a storage facility in Sun Prairie that year and listed its contents as "boxes, mixture of son's and parent's stuff."
According to the search warrant:
On April 13, 2005, police left a message for Eugene Zapata with his wife in Nevada. The next day, the locker's key was returned to U-Store Mini Storage in Sun Prairie. The empty locker remained locked until Aug. 10 and 11 when police opened it.
Dogs detected the scent of decomposing or decomposed human remains inside and around the locker, the search warrant indicates. That prompted a search of four acres in rural Juneau County owned by Zapata since 1978.
Eugene Zapata was arrested for allegedly murdering his wife Jean Zapata, who disappeared from their East Side Madison home 30 years ago.
The investigation into what happened Jean Zapata was dormant for years. The 36-year-old Madison woman and mother of three disappeared in 1976, but the case only returned to the spotlight in December 2004.
Here is a timeline in the investigation:
December 2004: Cadaver Dogs Search Former Home
Two cadaver dogs searching the basement of Jean Zapata's former home and indicated hits of human remains. A human hair was taken from the site, police said.
August 2005: Cadaver Dogs Search Storage Locker
Two cadaver dogs separately indicated hits of decomposing human remains at a Sun Prairie storage locker that Eugene Zapata had rented.
August 2005: Cadaver Dogs Search Juneau County Lot
Police also used cadaver dogs to search a 4-acre lot owned by Eugene Zapata in Juneau County.
December 2005: Police Call Case "Foul Play"
Madison police officially called the case "foul play" and named Eugene Zapata their one and only suspect.
February 2006: Eugene Zapata Denies Connection To Wife's Disappearance
In a telephone interview with WISC-TV from Henderson, Nev., Eugene Zapata denied any connection to his wife's disappearance.
March 2006: Police Search Juneau County Landfill
Madison police conducted a week-long search of the Juneau County land-fill near Mauston. They said that they are searching for Jean Zapata's remains and containers that they believe belonged to Eugene Zapata.
August 2006: Eugene Zapata Arrested For Murder
He had faced first-degree murder charges. A jury deadlocked on a verdict, and a second trial was scheduled. If convicted on that charge, Zapata would have faced life in prison.
A second trial seemed less likely after reports surfaced earlier this month that a plea deal had been struck.
As part of the agreement with prosecutors, Zapata had to tell authorities how he killed his wife and where her body was hidden, WISC-TV reported.
During Monday's proceedings, Dane County chief prosecutor Bob Kaiser asked the court to accept an amended charge of homicide by reckless conduct. Kaiser earlier told the court that the deal with Zapata includes a statement to police about why Zapata went to her house, how and why he killed her and what he did with her.
Kaiser said that Zapata confessed to police and that he believes Zapata's statement will be truthful and complete.
A second trial seemed less likely after reports surfaced earlier this month that a plea deal had been struck.
As part of the agreement with prosecutors, Zapata had to tell authorities how he killed his wife and where her body was hidden, WISC-TV reported.
During Monday's proceedings, Dane County chief prosecutor Bob Kaiser asked the court to accept an amended charge of homicide by reckless conduct. Kaiser earlier told the court that the deal with Zapata includes a statement to police about why Zapata went to her house, how and why he killed her and what he did with her.
Kaiser said that Zapata confessed to police and that he believes Zapata's statement will be truthful and complete.
The grim facts he finally admitted when faced with a second murder trial
Prosecutors said that Zapata told police that he went to his wife's house in 1976, had an argument and "snapped." He told them that he grabbed a metal draftman's tool and hit her in the head multiple times. He said that she then dropped to ground and he strangled her. He apparently told investigators that he "strangled Jeanette Zapata manually until his hands hurt." He also wrapped a cord around her neck.
Prosecutors said that Zapata told police that he went to his wife's house in 1976, had an argument and "snapped." He told them that he grabbed a metal draftman's tool and hit her in the head multiple times. He said that she then dropped to ground and he strangled her. He apparently told investigators that he "strangled Jeanette Zapata manually until his hands hurt." He also wrapped a cord around her neck.
Body dumped in numerous places over 24 years as police continued to probe
Zapata said that he wrapped her body in a tent and drove it to an area near Highway 151 and Reiner Road, where he hid it in some underbrush. He transferred her remains a short time later to some Juneau County land that he owed. There, he buried her body -- which remained there for 24 years -- before moving her remains to a Sun Prairie storage locker, where it was eventually cut into pieces and later disposed of at a Mauston landfill. He moved the body from the Juneau County because he planned to sell the land. Blanchard said because Jeanette Zapata's body was dumped in numerous Dumpsters at the landfill, there is no way to recover her remains.
Zapata said that he wrapped her body in a tent and drove it to an area near Highway 151 and Reiner Road, where he hid it in some underbrush. He transferred her remains a short time later to some Juneau County land that he owed. There, he buried her body -- which remained there for 24 years -- before moving her remains to a Sun Prairie storage locker, where it was eventually cut into pieces and later disposed of at a Mauston landfill. He moved the body from the Juneau County because he planned to sell the land. Blanchard said because Jeanette Zapata's body was dumped in numerous Dumpsters at the landfill, there is no way to recover her remains.
Truth and Justice..a chance to grieve..Mum deserved the truth
Linda Zapata, the youngest of Eugene and Jeanette Zapata's three children, gave a statement in court. She said that she was torn over testifying against her father earlier, but she's glad that he agreed to the plea deal. She said his confession is "a gift."
"By confessing to Mom's murder, you have given me and others a precious gift, a chance to grieve, mourn and heal," she said. "Mom deserved no less than that Mom deserved the truth about what really happened that morning, and I thank you for finally giving her that."
She added that she still loves her father and forgives him, although she doesn't condone what he did.
Linda Zapata, the youngest of Eugene and Jeanette Zapata's three children, gave a statement in court. She said that she was torn over testifying against her father earlier, but she's glad that he agreed to the plea deal. She said his confession is "a gift."
"By confessing to Mom's murder, you have given me and others a precious gift, a chance to grieve, mourn and heal," she said. "Mom deserved no less than that Mom deserved the truth about what really happened that morning, and I thank you for finally giving her that."
She added that she still loves her father and forgives him, although she doesn't condone what he did.
No comment from 69 year old Zapata, over his lies for 30 years where he denied the murder of his wife, as he is led away for three years in custody following a plea deal
Eugene Zapata declined comment in the court. He was later taken away in handcuffs after his sentence was imposed.
Kaiser said that he thinks the agreement is the best possible option for "truth and justice." Likewise, Blanchard called the resolution to this case a huge achievement for justice.
Kaiser said that he thinks the agreement is the best possible option for "truth and justice." Likewise, Blanchard called the resolution to this case a huge achievement for justice.
279 comments:
1 – 200 of 279 Newer› Newest»Just wanted to say thank you for everybody’s inputs. Great articles Viv. It seems we will know the truth after all. I mean we know that parents responsible for Madeleine death, but the all the truth about all involved in poor child death cover up.!!!
Damn. I love dogs, Viv. I know Gerry has a bitch, but has he got dogs too?
Irinna how lovely to see you back. Yes we all know for sure McCanns killed their child and now we know for sure they are going to face what they did, that is truly fantastic news.
Doc, just a tad sexist ?
Hello Viv & all,
Great posts, as always!
Just spotted this opinion article!
News of the World by Carole Malone
June 01, 2008
"Lazy docs make me feel sick!
Trying to kid
SO, it isn't just Kate and Gerry McCann who have refused to go back to Portugal for a police reconstruction of Maddie's disappearance.
We now learn that at least four of the Tapas Seven have also refused because they too left their kids alone when they went drinking that fateful night.
Are they worried that like the McCanns, they might also become suspects?
Er, so what happened to the "We'll do whatever's necessary to find Maddie" mantra?
Did that come with the proviso that they'll do "whatever's necessary" as long as it doesn't embarrass them, inconvenience them or put them in any personal danger?
Anyway, I don't see the problem. If these people have nothing to hide, if they really DO want to help find Maddie, why haven't they already hauled their backsides back to Portugal?"
Goodnight! :)
Luv
Ana
xxxx
Maybe it is time they did take Jane Gin and Tonic away, and her "topic" is??:
Anonymous said...
interesting new post on 'new' 'topic' now on viv's site. ha ha neither new nor topical truth ? ha ha not that either.....h ha ha strangers to that all of them there.
ha ha ha ha ha
really!!!!!!
Blogger JANEGT said...
4 portugal ooops
grammar not like you that we know so so well from a long time ago, pre 4 portugal, as you know it is
'to whom the investigation' and not TO WHO ASYOU STATED. OF COURSE IT IS YOUR TESCO KYBOAD....YES. COURSE IT IS.
bad weather lately with you. shame. never mind gives you time to correct you spelling, grammar and/or your keyboarding skills. whichever. ;o)))))
01 June 2008 00:36
Blogger 4portugal said...
Janetgt, I did not understand your post.
01 June 2008 00:38
Blogger JANEGT said...
4 portugal
janet? you always called me that even before you became 4 portugal, remember?
I was correctng your grammar darling
whom
not who
buy a thesaurus.
T H E S A U R U S
WRITE IT DOWN.
YOU UNDERSTOOD IT ALL. EVERY WORD.
01 June 2008 00:41
loooooooooooooooooooooool!!!!!!
Hiya Ana
I am amazed that newspapers columnists can still write, at least with any degree of sincerity, "if they have nothing to hid". I mean the chances of this lot voluntarily flying back to Portugal to help the police are about as high as me seeing that green pig that just went flying past my window, honest it did and it was luminescent so it glowed in the dark so that is how I could see it...
Crumbs, it gets better!
Blogger Rosiepops said...
By the way Impostordoc. you cannot have it both ways, you are your seemingly perverted paedophile cronies have made much about how the scent of death can linger, despite washing etc.
Taking your analogy it can linger on Kate's clothes despite washing, you moronic buffoon.
By the way, the same two dogs that were used in the Madeleine investigation, were used in the Jersey case and the scent of death they picked up , turned out to be nothing but an old lump of cardboard, yet they indicated a positive find.
What do the PJ do now? It was on this apparently positive find, that the Lardy boy (Gonc) had the prosecutor make the McCann's arguidos!
You really are nothing more than a twit Docquack.
01 June 2008 00:51
loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool!!!
Alsa, get in here and check this idiot out :-)))))
Hiya Doc
and of course blogger Jane Gin and Tonic knows so much about good grammar:-))))))))))
I can see this with my very eyes, you know I wonder whether she has a link with another called Jane, tee hee x
You know Doc, in my professional opinion they have been on the sauce again:-)))))) Maybe they had TAPAS too xx
Hi Viv
Te he he. Did you know Rosie was not born in England? This is why her English is so poor. She is a manure distributor from BOGnor Regis. I know this to be true because I say it is so.
Doc, I really dont think Popsicle likes my current thread, she soon got the vitriol in so that is good, she hates dogs, and she hates me and you, could that be because we all stand for
The thing is this man has only recently been convicted so it is a brand new story and a brand new bitter pill for Kate and Gerry to have to swallow but we are going to make sure they do and they cannot run away
JUSTICE FOR MADDIE
supertroll said...
Anon,
Mad old Vile hasn't got much to go on with.
She either makes up new lies or rehashes old stories.
She does however seem to have a thing about those dogs. I don't think the feeling would be mutual if they ever met.
ST
01 June 2008 00:32
Viv,
Looooooooool!!!
BTW, yesterday I saw Kate Winehouse( they try to take to the reconst. but I said :No No NOOOO) oops, Amy Winehouse´s concert here in Portugal, it was broadcast by one of our TV channel live, she was so drunk and maybe drugged that she even fell down at the stage, it was a disgrace and I love her voice and her music so much...What a pity! :(
Nite darling :)
Yep, the juice has been flowing freely in the house of Jane Viv.
Blogger JANEGT said...
ha 4 portugal
SO on ONLY 2 posts - I am 'very aggressive'? huh? for correcting your grammar, spelling and/or keyboarding? aggression? no. fact? yes. But you do not like facts in Portugal. You like ''blame''... doesn't matter if it is right or wrong, just 'get someone' that fits. You have just done it here. Thank you so much for proving my points yet again. and again. and again. and again. in whatever name you choose. You know I know you. ok you don't post me, I am not bothered. bovvered? me? eh? am I? huh? bovvered like? not at all nope bovvered ha ha sniff
but I will post 'you'
English is not your 'first' language? (you say)
MORE CRAP AND LIES. look at your posts. first equal or 2nd language perhaps, but certainly 'not' your last language!!!!!! we are not stupid. you can and are traced you know or is this computer solar powered by the moon?
You keep on and on defeating your own arguments. but you always did that.
;0)
01 June 2008 01:08
Doc Seriously p1s*ing meself with laughter here
Rosie grows well on all the manure she distributes tee hee hee
and we know that is true because WE SAY SO loLLLLLLLLLLIPOPS
You mean Boggypops, Viv. What a liar she is. Trying to come over all sophisticated and all; not very successfully may I say. And all this time she's been peddling shit!
Hiya Doc
Well yes the juices are flowing the spit is flying and Gin and Tonic can see no reason why she should not correct people's grammar so that it matches her own, well I expect her therapist is trying to work on developing insight but her yeaaaa but noooo but posts are very difficult to read. "You know I know you" oh dear paranoid psychosis and alcohol just do not mix well do they.
Looool Boggypops, you know I think "she" is about as sophisticated as a "squirrel's fart" what kind of male factory talk was that then?
Blogger Rosiepops said...
And unless you have somehow managed to get another poster's IP address, your IP numbers match that of What I Believe. So can we stop this now please? If you can not be honest about who you are how do you expect us to believe anything else you are saying?
01 June 2008 01:21
Oh, the old IP number thingy again. Doos.
but Doc What I Believe is key here, yea we know, Brian's dreams and visions lol, did you see how many things he is trying to flog and you even have to pay if you want to read all his rubbish!
Oh my, I'm PMSL!!!!
4Portugal is Australian because they say so! lololol What a perfect Portuguese that Australian lady speaks. Australia is such a big country. I never knew that Portuguese was also an official language there! lololololol
You know I read bloody fast, Viv. Jane's posts are a different matter. It's like trying to read Russian through the bottom of a gin bottle.
I swear to you that if my moral values did not stop me from posting there, I would go and discuss the misteries of the Universe in Portuguese with 4Portugal until the convicted child killers defenders were forced to close down business! lololol
What I Believe is that Brian talks kak.
Hi Claudia! Been visiting that 5 star hotel again? How's George?
Doc, lolololololol
You still read them? What a brave man. I would rather try to understand chinese. Written by a sober person, of course! ;-)
Hi, Doc. Nope. Just out with some great people! :-) But I have to confess that this is also fun!
Ola Claudia darling, we are having weekend frivolity and Doc just keeps coming up with yet more and so I cannot stop laughing, although I do believe he has just seeeeeriously insulted the Russians!
I think she writes in the same order it is in her head and her brain maybe got a little atrophied along with her poor liver.
Well you know Claudia, Hun, Portuguese is spoken all over the world really and we just learned even in Australia hun x
Oh, wait. No, not Bianca. And because she/he speaks Portuguese, he/she can't obviously be posting from Australia therefore he/she is Alsabella who also is What I Believe! lololololol
Alsabella will love to hear that when she's back! PMSL! That girl does not know what she's been missing.
Brian gets his little boy to do a scrawly picture, then he writes a bit of demented rubbish all over it, then he stamps, Briansdreams.com on it, publishes it on his webpage, has a really good laugh and sells it to the likes of Jane Gin and Tonic and Bognorpops who are like sewers very good at eating shit x
By that I mean I managed to get a match of three sets of IP numbers to three different IDs, one of them was Alsabella.
01 June 2008 01:46
----------------------------------
Do you happen to know if those sets come in different colours? I would love to get some for my recently redecorated place! lolololololol If I knew that a party was going on I would have come home earlier!
I'm reading them now, Claudia. Saturday Night Live.
Guys I have a confession to make about Bianca, she asked for a new membership and I sent her a link:-)))))))
You mean Alsabella will post again? Or is it 4Portugal? Or What I believe? I can't believe she didn't tell me... ;-)
Did Alsa write down the IP address which she probably shares with a few hundred others and send it in a brown envelope to shitpeddlars.com?
They have no idea about Alsabella. None whatsoever! It's hilarious! Alsa, I believe, wouldn't post there for obvious reasons. And if she did she would be calling them highway whores again in about 30 seconds! lololololol
chinadoll said...
Hey,
I must say, that that little flurry reminded me of days gone by.
01 June 2008 01:52
Rosiepops said...
They did CK, they reminded me of the DX days!
01 June 2008 01:53
---------------------------------
Nostalgia time. They miss having their huge asses kicked! lololol
You know I was told that as I do not buy a static IP address every time I switch my computer on I get a new one, how fab is that, I like multi colours in my farden too x
I think Bognorpops has a bit of a thing about Alsabella, it could even be love x Or is it simply because her name has lots of a's in? Gosh Goncalo has an a and two o's so she tries to wean herself off this a bit because it sets her off and shortened him to Gonc x
"The IP numbers do not lie unfortunately. As you know I cannot reveal them as it is against the law, but they match."
I'm logged in to your pink disaster site now Boggypops. Have you viewed your site with Firefox? Or Sahara? Or Opera? Or any of the other multitude of browsers out there? It's a shame.
Please publish my IP address now, you have my permission. I'm not a scaredy cat like most of your tjommies, because I am actually who I say I am. And I'm not scared of Gerry, Pinky or any of their attornies. Go on, I dare you!
Claudia
But Bognorpops put CK instead of CD. You know Hun, I feel a paranoid conspiracy theory coming on about this, I think I will ask Brian to have a dream about it !
Viv, could you please ask Brian to dream about the lottery numbers for me. As you know my place is being redecorated. If he doesn't manage to do it, I'll start thinking about setting up a fund...
88.217.80.185
Firefox? Or Sahara? Or Opera?
................................
Please, Doc, don't confused the old ladies. They may think there are three more planets! ;-)
Waves to Supersad Bognorpops..keep taking pictures of my blog, I like it!
Hun, I could ask Brian for you, I know he likes me because apparently he puts pages from this blog onto his own, but you do have to wait 26 weeks for him to have the appropriate dream apparently Hun, if you are in a hurry why not just sue someone, I mean you could just buy another apartment then Hun, or you could just call it the find Viv Fund x
Hey, Claudia
I'm still waiting for them to pick on me for my speeeeling (attornies).
I guess it went over their bubbleheads.
Well, I'm kind of sleepy so I'll have to think about it tomorrow. I mean, in some hours! :-) Well, darling, you seem to have a fan, then. I never visited Brian's corner (as far as I can remember). Those 'dreams' sound very weird. probably nutty. But I can see why the convicted child killers defenders pros like him. They also seem to have dreams and visions...
I should be sleeping by now, Doc. But I've laughed my ass off.
I just went to the pink blog and clicked on the link to play this video but it said "this video is no" Was it too dark for them?
This Video By JanetMarieJames- Examines Tunnels Underneath Praia Da Luz
Claudia, I'm laughing so hard at those drols my avatar just pooped. I'm still cleaning the screen now.
Sleep tight x
Hiya Hun
I visited his site after reading the Pink Trolls having a little hissy fit writing to him complaining about him putting my posts on his blog but I could not find my posts, maybe he expected me to pay to view them!
Supersad Bognorpops does have dreams and visions and then yet more dreams and visions, she feels things, god help the poor man, Brian must be earning his cash in a hard way with her big fat ass x
Doc, lolololololol
Stop it! I need to sleep and you keep making me laugh. I need to get some sleep. Not getting any younger. Will be 29 in around a month!
Viv, even those who have visions and dreams, will have to wake up to the hard reality. Soon, I believe!
xxxx
Viv, check that site in another browser. It's hilarious! The video has never been available when I've been there. It's sad, because i so wanted to check whether Mumfundi's appraisal of it was correct. I think Mumfundi is still trying to figure out how to upload a video though, as she has not been about much today. Or maybe she has found a programme better than her own cheap picture editor but is battling to install it.
Doc you are a naughty man, I cannot even go down and get a cup of tea:-)))))) and you are keeping Claudia up all night
You made that snow filthy dirty again didnt you
Guys, this is it.
Sleep tight and don't have too much fun without me!
Beijinhos!
Claudia
So you're about 14 years older than me then ;-)))
Hey, doc, I've seen your pictures, remember? ;-)
Ja Viv, sorry. Don't want to keep the oldies up now. What happened to Leigh today? She's usually on late at night. I enjoy reading her thoughts wherever they are posted.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Doc, I am a precocious 13 year old but love to wind the knitting and cackling circle up.
Claudia
Boa Noite Hun and I will try and do a dream for you, will then scribble on a bit of paper and email it to you, completely free of charge and without a 26 week wait so I can find out first x
Claudia
I shave my head.
Flip, I just dozed off there, Viv. I had a dream. She did it.
Doc
I dont know what has happened to our Leigh tonight but she was on earlier on, I remember x
Doc, was it Psychopops or Chinadull?
Both. In the bedroom. With the drugs.
I'm still waiting for the manure seller and her drunk friend to tell me I spelt 'attornies' incorrectly. I know, it's the correct spelling, but I thought the smallminds might think it should be 'attorneys'.
Oh, just realised they have had their Ovaltine and gone to sleep.
Or maybe both are acceptable.
Don't know now, really confused :-))) Drink Jane, DRIIINK. That was the great advice you had to offer to anyone who was trying to stop smoking. DRIIINK!!! Just have some more tapas grub first and you will actually be able to assert some sort of authority over your lost 16 year old daughter. Shame on you. She should have stayed with her dad.
Goodnight Viv x
Sorry Doc, went off to have a brians dream for Claudia. I agree they are both equally culpable here. They both chose to leave their kids every single night and they both chose to drug them so they would not be troublesome.
Nite Nite my friend x
Hi Viv
Still here but going off now, I'm tired :-(
I had to 'babysit' for a couple of twins as their mum was 'out' for a while. Their names are a and b, and their mum's name is c. Am I in breach?
xx
PS: Rob, Sam and Kiara send their love.
Hiya again Doc, I send my love back to those beautiful little children and know you would always care for little ones.
I think the McCanns made another very serious mistake in September 2007, publically announcing they were seeking the judgment of this case, given he has now admitted he did murder his wife. They wanted it to prove their innocence, well now just like him it proves their guilt.
The dogs do not lie, but killers, desperate to avoid being brought to justice for their crimes, certainly do. It might have taken over 30 years to finally bring him to justice but for the McCanns and dear little Madeleine, it will be a lot sooner than that.
McCanns Look to U.S. for Help Against Evidence-Sniffing Dogs
Monday, September 17, 2007
Steve Bird and David Brown in Praia da Luz
E-MAIL STORY PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION
The parents of Madeleine McCann have contacted the lawyers of a man charged with murder who successfully challenged sniffer dog evidence. His lawyers claimed it was unreliable and persuaded a judge in the US to throw out prosecution claims that the dogs had detected the smell of a corpse.
Kate and Gerry McCann hope that the case could help them to prove their own innocence.
Two British sniffer dogs, one capable of detecting blood and human remains, were taken to Portugal in early August to help in the investigation. The dog picked up a “scent of death” on numerous items, including Mrs McCann’s clothes and her daughter’s favourite soft toy.
During police interviews the McCanns, both 39, were repeatedly shown a video of the animal “going crazy” when it approached their hired Renault Scenic car.
Mrs McCann could not explain it, but the scent of bodies remains detectable to the springer spaniel “cadaver dogs” for years and her legal team concluded that the scent could have come from her contact with corpses during her work as a doctor.
Portuguese police believe that the couple may have killed their child accidentally and then disposed of the body using a car they hired 25 days later. Although the McCanns do not know the full details of the Portuguese prosecutor’s case against them, they are concerned that it may rest on the dog’s reaction.
Now their lawyers have requested the case files from the ongoing murder trial of Eugene Zapata in Madison, Wisconsin. His estranged wife, Jeanette, a 37-year-old flight instructor, vanished in October 1976 after taking her children to school. Her body has never been found.
Detectives suspected that Mr Zapata killed her but did not have enough evidence to go to court. Mr Zapata, 68, was charged with murder last year after sniffer dogs were brought in. They allegedly detected the scent of human remains in a basement at the former family home. But Dane County Judge Patrick Fiedler ruled that the evidence was inadmissible, saying that the dogs were unreliable. He quoted analysis of the three dogs’ performance record which showed that they were, respectively, incorrect 78 per cent, 71 per cent and 62 per cent of the time.
The judge told the court: “The state has failed to convince me that it’s any more reliable than the flip of a coin.” The jury is considering its verdict.
A source close to the McCanns’ legal team said: “The court papers, giving the legal submissions, are on their way to the McCann team for consideration. At the moment there are no formal charges and therefore there is no formal allegation against which the McCann team can work. We are having to work a little bit in the dark.
“But given that we understand the central plank of what the police are alleging involves sniffer dogs – albeit British ones, which are said to be particularly good – this is important and relevant, and will be raised with the police and brought to the judge’s attention.”
British millionaires are being sought to fund the McCanns’ legal battle with the Portuguese authorities to clear their names. Sir Richard Branson has donated $200,000 to a fighting fund. A spokesman for the multi-billionaire said: “When the McCanns said under no circumstances would they touch the Find Madeleine Fund and mentioned they would sell their house, Richard felt he had to do something. He is a father and there is a missing child out there.”
Father Haynes Hubbard, the Anglican priest who became close friends with the McCanns when they stayed on in Praia da Luz, said yesterday: “That’s absolutely wonderful. If I had £100,000 I would give it to Kate and Gerry, too.”
Clarence Mitchell will be employed by one of the McCanns’ wealthy supporters to act as the couple’s spokesman. He will resign as head of the media monitoring unit of the Cabinet Office today and take up his new post tomorrow. A friend said he had kept in touch with the couple after handling the case while still working for the Government
Snapped from ” Ludicrous 21.12.07”
Both English Cadaver Sniffer Dog Officers Association (ECSDOA) and English Blood Sniffer Dog Officers Association (EBSDOA) have reacted violently to Gerry McCann’s accusations on The Sunny Babble tabloid.
Cocker Spaniel Ralf, spokesdog for ECSDOA, barks legal action will be taken against McCanns unless Gerry makes public statement withdrawing defamatory allegations about dog officers sent to Portugal to help out on missing daughter case.
“Woof, woof, woooof!!” Ralf barked. Yorkshire Terrier Smithy, president of EBSDOA, stands by ECSDOA and also intends to sue McCanns claiming statements accusing top dog officers with impeccable reputation and highly regarded by human police officers are unfair, untrue and extremely offensive. “Woof, woof, woof, woof!!” it barked angrily.
No dog officer behaved irresponsibly or in any way unprofessionally while in Portugal.
Dog officers appointed to work on missing child case have large field experience. They are trained to work under pressure, stress and extreme conditions.
They take work seriously and are immune to manipulation. President Smithy barks McCanns are running out of ideas and desperate to find excuses for their reckless behavior that lead to disappearance of daughter.
Blaming innocent hard working non human police officers is a cheap shot and coward attempt to make those that cannot defend themselves responsible for their human disgusting actions.
Ralf claims McCanns have gone too far. Dog officers know what they’ve sniffed in Praia da Luz and deny having taken any biscuits as bribery “Woof, woof, woof!!!”
It seems McCanns are buried in poop up to their necks, and cannot justify cadaver stench on Kate’s cloths or anywhere else for that matter.
Sources say both Associations may claim several millions pounds for slanderous, insulting and humiliating public statements made by Gerry McCann which are extremely damaging to reputation of outstanding sniffer dog officers.
Sniffer dogs insist on public apology from McCanns, in person, and Clarence Mitchell. Dog officers are very protective of their puppies and do not abandon them. Above and foremost they don’t stab each other in the back! They work for hours on end, don’t get paid and end up being blamed for human mistakes. Incompetent? Negligent? Manipulated? Corrupt? Smithy dreads the moment it hears the ultimate insult. It’s only a matter of time until they are called HUMAN. “Woof, woof, woof… woof, woof!!!” that’s what they fear the most!
Good morning everyone
Does anyone know why the 3A site is not working?
Good morning Stella
I think people are still sleeping.
Regarding 3A site - I have`nt noticed. Has it been for long? Maybee it will work later!
Ecolab, Hi
Yes, we have many night owls on this site.
Not sure when 3A went down, it was OK when I left it yesterday afternoon. I did read on there that someone has been trying to close them down.
Eco, if you are still there
Just in case Viv's site is next, is there anywhere else people are posting?
Hi Viv and All,
Excellent article – I note in the Zapata case the dumped body was moved around. I think in the McCann case the same happened over a briefer time scale.
When the Mc’s were in Portugal the staging following the alleged abduction was overcooked and I always believed they stayed too long. They probably would have remained longer if they had not had been made arguidos. I believe this was because they expected the body to be found and wanted to be in situ to deal with this eventuality. In other words to be in the best positioned to act out their staged response to the finding.
Dear Stella
I`m not afraid that VIV`s page is melting down. VIV knows her people(members. I`m sure she has a plan, if she is hacked. She has all our mailadresses(When we applied for membership)
Right now, I`m reading a little at ST page. For once it is informative. Gossip-gossip-gossip.
You are early up?
Morning Stella,
3A's site often goes down. I don't think its anything suspicious it will probably be up and running later.
Eco
I go to bed early due to poor health, so I am always up early.
Good thinking about Viv having our addresses. The more these people try to stop us from disgussing this subject, the more I think the Government is involved.
If you hear anything juicy, do let us know...
Wizard
Thanks, I didn't know that, I have only been using it for a couple of days.
I agree with your post by the way, especially the bit with moving the body around more than once.
Dear Stella
Anything juicy....You can count on me ;-))
I`m off for now - having my car out for a little run.
See you all later, along with a little story, I think!
I'm sending a big e-cuddle to Eddie & Keela. Don't you just want to hug them, they are amazing.
Well done handlers, I would give you a big hug too...
Hi Viv, hi everyone,
Many cases do not get solved until years after the fact, so with the McCanns potentially "arguidi" for twenty years, I guess there is a strong possibility this case may not be resolved for quite a while!
It may be that in ten years time or so, one vital piece of evidence emerges that clears things up one way or the other (guilty or innocent of killing Madeleine). Who knows? Certainly, this is what happened in the Lindy Chamberlain case in Australia. Lindy was incarcerated in 1982 for killing her daughter Azaria, but she was immediately released from jail in 1986 when Azaria's badly mauled (dingo mauled) matinée jacket was accidentally discovered miles from where the Chamberlain's had been camping when Azaria went missing back in 1980. This one piece of evidence (the baby's matinée jacket) was the missing piece of the puzzle that the Chamberlain's defense team had been looking for all that time. Both Lindy and Michael Chamberlain were officially exonerated from all charges in 1988. Furthermore, much of the DNA "evidence" that had been used to prove Lindy was guilty of killing her daughter was discovered at re-hearing to be misguided or just plain false.
Like the McCann case, the "dingo baby" case was complicated and seemingly full of contradictions. And like the McCanns, the Chamberlains had been incredibly negligent with their children, namely, taking nine-month-old Azaria (who had a chest cold at the time) up to Ayers Rock in the middle of a freezing Northern Territory winter, and then letting her sleep unsupervised on the floor of an unzipped tent! (and this is AFTER the Chamberlains were warned by the local Aboriginal people that dingoes had been known to maul people's children!)
Maybe the cases will prove to be alike in other ways .. who knows? But there is for me, one outstanding difference between the two: As far as I know, Lindy and Michael Chamberlain always co-operated with police, and never held up obstacles to being questioned. Furthermore, the Chamberlains did not seem to have large amounts of money or a protective "shell" around them like the McCanns apparently do (which is probably why Lindy ended up in jail!).
I don't know if the McCanns killed Madeleine or not, but I certainly find it unusual behaviour for the parents of a missing child to not want to answer police questions, or assist with a re-construction of events. And, I find it even MORE unusual that they seem immune from having to these things, simply because they don't "want" to. If that one piece of evidence DOES emerge one day, I wonder what it will say?
Great piece Viv.
Put it this way, if /when Gerry finally loses ultimate control and gets banged up in prison I shall send him an emergency ration pack including dog food and lovely dog biscuits. This man is beyond the dictionary definition of evil. (IMO)
I'm off to plant some seeds in the vegetable patch and remind myself of the simple home pleasures that bring out the best side of your children. As I said yesterday it is a shame that Madeleine did not have parents that put her needs first.
Children do indeed deserve protection, from child neglecters like the McCann's and their Tapas friends. You are quite right.
That one piece of evidence you were referring to in your last sentence, the PJ already have it and know exactly what it is telling them, so have no fear, you will not have to wait 10 or even 20 years to find out, that day is coming really soon.
Good morning all! Thanks Viv for the article about those beautiful dogs. Rosie, Eddie did not make a mistake, the humans did and it wasn't a piece of cardboard, it was a coconut. They also found over 20 cremated bones and 6 teeth thanks to Eddie's efforts. Read 'em and weep, child neglecters!
I thought I might go over to the Fairies'n'Kittens later today but I might not bother, after all. It would be churlish of me. A bit like the olden days when people bought tickets to Bedlam to get entertainment watching the lunatics. Anybody know who 4Portugal is? I suppose a wee country the size of Australia would not have any Portuguese speakers in it? Hahahahaha! Speaking of Oz, I hope Bianca does decide to come back in, I always liked Bianca and the pros were well out of order with her.
The 3As will be back up later today. There were some major technical problems last night which should be fixed later on today. It has NOT repeat NOT been shut down due to anything legal. Once the main server is fixed it will be back. Sorry pros!
Morning All
Well another Liar finaly comes clean and admits he did in fact kill his wife. The dog's were right after all. Do you think Kate and Gerry will still want to use this as an example of how the dogs are so wrong? I think not...
Ana thanks for the NOTW link maybe slowly slowly the tide is turning no acusations that they hurt her or know what happend to her but a clear question that many many people are asking if they think she is alive why are they not back over there.
The friends that they are so into are not going to help find their child. If these selfish people were my friends and I knew I was inocent I would be frog marching all 4 of them back to PDL demanding they take part as maybe it would help find my Daughter.
I may just read some Newspapers today to see if there is any others that are starting to state the obvious instead of what they have to print.
Never has freedom of the press been so important. xxx
Rat
Thanks for that info on 3A's. And you are right there's no need to go fishing, the pink salmon are jumping out here today...
Hi Stella,
I could not agree more. Children DO deserve protection from despicable child neglecters like the McCanns and their friends, which is why I changed my screen name from "Bianca" to the name I have now :-)
I hope the PJ are free to continue their investigation very soon. There have been so many hold ups. The McCanns should not be above the law.
Bianca
What makes you think the PJ are being prevented from continuing with the investigation?
Stella,
I believe the PJ are being prevented from continuing with the investigation in so far as they are being blocked from re-questioning the McCanns. Anything that involves the PJ dealing directly with the McCanns always seems to be stopped.
One moment the press is reporting that the PJ has enough evidence to convict the McCanns (which everybody here also seems to be believed), and then the next, we see the McCanns refusing to answer further police questions and nobody seemingly able to force them to do so.
Why?
Either one of two things MUST be the case. Either A) the PJ don't really have the evidence that people say they do, or B) they DO have this evidence, but they are being given the run around by certain parties and being prevented from continuing to investigate the McCanns personally.
If there is a third option, I'd love to hear it!
I said "which everybody here also seems to be believed", but meant to say "which everybody here also seems to believe".
Sorry!
Bianca
Have you ever played one of those computer games where as you go along you collect many things along the way that will help you reach the end?
Well, let's just say the PJ have also been playing this game and last week they collected many things which will asist them to reach the end of the game.
The PJ never needed to speak to any of them again, the reconstruction was never about getting to speak to any of them...
Stella,
Well what was the re-construction about then? Obviously, the PJ wanted to confer with the McCanns personally about certain things, otherwise, why request that they be present while the re-construction was taking place?
It seems that the PJ can do just about anything short of actually getting the McCanns in the same room with them at the same time!
Like I have stated a squillion times before, the law is not my strong point, and particularly not European law as I am an Aussie. However, the overall picture to me seems to be that here are the two main suspects in a criminal investigation, and yet these are the two people who nevertheless seem most immune to police questioning - even MORE so than their friends who are not, in fact, suspects!
I don't know of any other criminal investigation where this has been the case (and I have seen some pretty big ones, including the Chamberlain case which made Australian history). It all seems very weird to me, but if the PJ have been collecting evidence as you say, then I guess it will all be resolved very soon.
Bianca
The PJ knew all along they would not go back, that was the point. Now to add to all the other charges they already have against them, they can add other things like obstruction and trying to pevert the course of justice. The more "other" charges they have, the longer they will go down for. Why send them down for 5 when they can get 15.....
BTW, talking about other cases to help the McCann's, does not help them....
Hi Rat - long time, no see!
Thank you for this comment:
"I always liked Bianca and the pros were well out of order with her."
That's nice of you to say Rat, and I've always liked you too :-)
And I agree: the Pro's WERE well out of order! Both sides (Pro and Anti) trade insults over the internet. It has been the way of things since the DE days. However, never have I stooped so low as to accuse someone of "supporting pedophiles", simply because I don't like their views and I want to get at them (which is exactly what the Pro's, namely Tinkerbell, did to me). This is going way too far - even by Pro-verses-Anti standards!
We live in an age where police and other agencies are constantly seeking out child predators over the internet, so to point the finger at a perfectly innocent person simply out of childish spite, is an incredibly cruel and irresponsible thing to do! I am happy to be investigated as I know the police will simply end up laughing, however, just to read such an accusation (even though obviously made by idiots!) sent a shiver up my spine.
As I say, the Pro's are going way too far now. Tinkerbell described me as 'sympathetic to pedophiles" and called me "dangerous", while Supertroll openly states on her blog that she thinks many people who come to Viv's site "may be pedophiles" or "sexual perverts". This is an absolute disgrace, and the irony in my case is that from day one, my entire angle has been child PROTECTION, including relaying the advice of police (on how to protect your children from predators) over my blog!
The Pro's have turned this game up a notch, and it has now reached the realms of slander. They had better watch themselves though, as it is not only their precious McCanns who have contacts.
A leopard never changes it's spots....
ha ha ha ha ha
Very informative - Taken from another blog:
"29.05.2008
Investigators wanted to confuse the 10th Latin American and Caribbean "Tapas"
"The refusal of access to the content of messages received by Gerry McCann before and after the disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, or the refusal of nine Tapas return to Portugal, will not prevent the inspectors to make progress in their investigation," said an official of the Judicial Police yesterday after the disclosure of the Tribunal's decision on the Relation of Evora.
According to the same source, with access to the content of messages received by Gerry McCann, "the investigators wanted to confuse a character still in the dark but that the police knew to be linked to the case."
Some inspectors even speak of 10th Tapas.
The existence of a tenth character, known Gerry and Kate McCann, is a fact also supported the United Kingdom where a member of the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has confirmed that "officers were sent to Portugal same suggested a few possibilities among the British who live permanently in the Algarve region. "
Yesterday, a Court of the Relation of Evora came to support the decision of the magistrate criminal Portimão, Pedro Frias, had banned the access of investigators from the Police Judiciaire the content of written messages (SMS) received by Gerry McCann.
According to the document, the father of Madeleine McCann has received 14 written messages on May 2, the day before the disappearance of her daughter, from a phone number officially unidentified. The same laptop is at the root of 4 other messages that Gerry McCann received after the disappearance.
Gerry and Kate McCann have always refused to disclose to investigators the content of messages, that has not prevented the police to obtain this information.
It is the use of the contents of this information, especially in a trial, which is questioned by the decision of the criminal magistrate.
According to the same document, the first stop of Justice publicly disclosed so far, investigations of the Judicial Police, following the disappearance of Madeleine, doing well on the possibility of crimes of abandonment, endangerment, murder and concealment of a corpse.
As a reminder, the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and Leicestershire police have cooperated in the investigation of the Portuguese authorities, as was confirmed Patricia Scotland, Minister of State and Attorney General for England and Wales.
If the judge's decision prevents the use of donated prior to the disappearance of Madeleine, it has not prevented investigators to take note of calls and inspectors to know who talked to whom.
The men of Gonçalo Amaral, now replaced by the inspector Paulo Rebelo, also had the opportunity to conduct wiretaps after the disappearance of Madeleine and while the couple and his friends were in Portugal. Once the couple and his friends returned to the United Kingdom, PJ British authorities expected the continuation of work but it is still uncertain whether all the information could be provided.
According to the interpretation given by the magistrate Criminal Tribunal 1 ª Portimão instance, Pedro Frias, the Portuguese law, upheld by the Court of the relationship, investigators can only use the data obtained in real time. In practice, it would have taken the investigators have obtained a permit before the disappearance of Madeleine.
Pedro Frias did not refuse the use of or access to all eavesdropping or recording made in connection with the investigation, but it does investigators the right to use the content of SMS sent and received by the McCann couple before May 3, 2007.
The Public Ministry and the Judicial Police also wanted to ask the three operators of mobile telephony exist in Portugal - TMN, Vodafone and Optimus - listings in digital media (CD or DVD) of all communications on the couple and friends for the period April 28 to September 9, 2007.
The urgency of getting the image of a "Tapas seven" united and strong
The announcement by the Office of the Attorney General of the Republic (PGR) cancellation of the reconstruction requested by the Judicial Police, indicating that this decision was the consequence of the refusal of four friends of Madeleine's parents to make their trip back to Praia da Luz, caused a huge outcry requiring Clarence Mitchell to react.
If the cancellation of diligence was not a real surprise, the confirmation of the PGR that there would be four witnesses to refuse to cooperate formally with the Portuguese authorities raises a question: why the other three have they accepted, Unconditionally, to cooperate with the Portuguese authorities?
The question becomes annoying, especially after that information is arriving in the British media, responsible couple communication McCann was quick to say that finally the entire group did not want to return to Portugal ".
Without ever addressing the note Prosecutor's office, the specialist in handling the media sought to justify the decision by the couple McCann and her four friends, wanting at any price calm public opinion and pass the image of a strong and united group against the Portuguese police, forgetting that voluntarily investigating the disappearance of Madeleine is a joint work with the British police.
Translation from S-O-S Maddie."
Hello Ecolab
I can quite believe they were all advised not to go by the legal teams.
Thanks for that...
Well Stella, if that is the case then the PJ have made an excellent strategic choice, and I wish them the best of luck. I have said from day one that the McCanns should be jailed for their child neglect, but if the evidence exists that they actually killed their daughter then I hope it is brought out sooner rather than later, and that the McCanns are punished to the full extent of the law.
Now Stella, to the final line of your recent post - may I just point out that most of the posters here know me from the Daily Express days (before any of these blogs even started) and know full well that I am NOT sympathetic toward the McCanns! Maybe I am wrong, but I think you would have a tough time convincing most posters here that I am a "turn-coat" or some kind of double-agent! I really don't know why you continue to infer these things Stella, but frankly .. I'm getting sick of it! What's more, if you'd read my post with any care, you'd have noticed that when comparing the Chamberlain case with the McCann case, I actually point out that unlike the McCanns, the Chamberlains always co-operated with police, so even though the two cases may have many similarities, they may ultimately prove different in one very fundamental way (and I left it up to the reader to decide what that "way" may be!).
You seem determined to "catch me out" on something Stella, but all you are doing is making yourself look paranoid. I'm very opinionated, and if I really wanted to defend the McCanns I'd simply do it and not give a damn what anyone thought, so stop trying to paint me as some kind of sniveling, back-door weasel!
ANYwhere & SOMEwhere
Does anyone know of any information that the McCann private investigation has come up with that has-
'taken us anywhere at all?'
The reward, (that never gets mentioned any more) -
It doesn't appear to have brought anyone out of the woodwork either!
On their campaigns, even the latest one, launched on the anniversary - adult McCann's said it generated lots of calls -
Any of them of value? Created new leads?
Don't think so or they would have been shouting it from the hilltops - as they did when Metodo claimed they would bring Madeleiene home for Christmas!
As for the McCann's not having confidence in the Portuguese Police?
If they honestly thought they were so hopeless and hapless - they would not have feared going back for a reconstruction!
If they had done so - It may just have taken us SOMEWHERE!
As for mobile phones - why can't McCann group just give the information willingly?
Afterall, it to may take us 'somewhere' in the search for Madeleine.
Or is it 'somewhere' they would rather not go?
Bianca
Ha ha ha ha ha
There is no need for anyone to catch you out dear, you give yourself away every time.....
On that note, let's call it a day.
The McCanns, and the Pros, have crossed a line now. I am not going to bore you all further with what happened to me (again!) this week. But to quote His Pinkness, the gloves are off now.
"There is no need for anyone to catch you out dear, you give yourself away every time....." - [Quoting Stella]
Oh really? And how is that then? Simply inferring that I "give myself away every time" isn't enough Stella. If you're going to make this kind of a claim, then back it up girl .. show us how ???
Rat,
Well I don't know about everyone else, but certainly you wouldn't bore me if you told us again (as I don't actually know what happened to you!).
??
Bianca
"show us how", ooops, was that just a tiny little slip I wonder.
Did you really mean "us" as in the rest of the team!!! Perhaps what you meant to say was show me how, being just you, singular.
bye, bye off for lunch now...
I don't really want to go into too much detail but it is in the hands of the Police anyway.
Rat,
Oh okay. Fair enough.
And to STELLA -
Yes, do go to lunch. And make sure you crush up some Valium and put it inside your sandwich .. okay?
ROTB
If I were you I would send an email to Jon Gaunt and let him know what else is going on behind the scenes.
It's nice isn't it? I've long been an anti-McCann and very open about it, and yet because I don't necessarily subscribe to the manslaughter theory, suddenly the finger of suspicion points at me, and I have to watch my P's and Q's lest I be accused of being "secretly in league" with the McCanns themselves!
Is this not ridiculous?
When I think of all the arguments I got into with the Pro's at the DE .. and all for what??
Bloody nice!
That might not be a bad idea Stella!
Hi All
As I am not privy to the evidence the PJ have but belive they must have something or they would have just said sorry cant find her a long time ago I am not sure what will happen to the McCann's...
The spin has sickend me from day one as has their lack of cooperation with the PJ never bothering to look for her themselves hiring a fraud investigation firm to find her.
Saying strange things about this beautiful girl who brings a lump to my throat when I think of her in a room all alone being hurt maybe killed or abducted by the Devil himself.
Planing a years aniversary days after she went missing being heartend she may be with a peadophile? This 3 year old girl called Madeleine has broken my heart.
A 3 year old child who is their daughter and is the best marketing they could ever have. Pictures of joy from both of them days after she was taken when a brave smile would be more than you would expect to see.
If they serve no time in Jail or it is not proved that they did this terrible thing I just hope that the papers start to print the truth of what went on in PDL and how they have gone out of their way to be unhelpful.
I think most people can see through them now if the Chaplins story is true let it come out and show that they cared more for their freinds than their children every memer of that selfish group.
If they end up in the saviour of children role's that they want so badly I will never give another penny to any childrens chairity that does not come forward and say what they have done is wrong.
Lets face it if they had been a couple from a sink estate and had gone to the pub in England and this had happend we would have the NSPCC and other organisations talking about it being against the law and they would certainly be being investigated if not awaiting trial in prison for gross neglect.
Still they have to live with themselves and God see's all and they really want us to belive that they are such devout Catholics they can worry about his wrath they have lost any sympathy I ever had for them.
If only they had gone back I may have still had a shred of hope they may be telling the truth.
Back to the McCanns -
Just wondering how many people have seen the YouTube clip posted at the 3A's site that shows the McCanns clearly laughing after being interviewed on the anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance?
If you haven't seen it yet, it's worth a watch. It really demonstrates, if nothing else, how terribly cold and detached these two are.
I actually saw it on YouTube a week or so ago and posted it on Claudia's site.
We see that one moment, Kate appears drained and is clutching Gerry's wrist for support, yet the next moment, she is smirking, and practically tearing her mike off as if it's boring and she can't wait to get out of there! Gerry, meanwhile, goes from looking serious and considered, to openly laughing within the same short space of time!
Is this really the sort of behavior one expects from "grieving" parents??
To see for yourself, go to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVUnMtW9ciI
What I find even more remarkable is that -
1. that video was made by the BBC and is still on their website, and
2. it is still available on YouTube!
I bet Clarence is fizzing about it!
Hi Hope4Truth,
One comment that stood out to me (among many strange comments from the McCanns that have stood out to me!) is when I watched Kate and Gerry's recent interview on the "anniversary" of Madeleine's disappearance (link posted in my above post) and Kate's said:
"We're asking people, especially people going abroad for the summer holidays, just to keep an eye out and to remember that Madeleine is still missing".
"Just to keep an eye out"?? Is she talking about a child, or a missing umbrella? Isn't this a rather causal turn of phrase, considering the subject matter?
You know, it has crossed my mind that maybe Madeleine really was abducted, but because she was (apparently) a "problem child", and because Kate and Gerry are obviously such selfish yuppies, maybe they (Kate and Gerry) were secretly relieved, and this is why they never seemed to go out of their way to look for her themselves?? It sounds awful, but maybe this is why they were playing tennis and lazing around the pool in the days after Madeleine's disappearance?? I'm thinking, if they killed her, they would be scared of the police finding out, and so could not be so relaxed as to laze around and play sports. And I'm thinking, is she was abducted and they were TRULY GRIEVING, they would ALSO not have been so casual and relaxed in the days afterward. So what that leaves for me is that YES, she WAS abducted, but NO, they were not truly grieving when it happened, and quite possibly are still not (hence, their laughter after their recent interview!).
The Tapas 9 had a golden opportunity to straighten out with the PJ their versions of what happened om May 3rd 2007, but they all failed miserably such is their confidence in their stories. Thats all McCann and McCann have done since the disappearance is scripted talk for a fee from the safety of the UK and do not lift a hand to sort this out. Always accusing the PJ of not doing enough to find Madeline, this week alone the Pink troll saying we would like to see more done on the ground......
The story of Eugene Zapata confessing is one man covering a crime for 30 years. In the McCann case a conspiracy of more than one person may be involved.
I typed "and Kate's said" but meant to type "and Kate said".
I know it seems pedantic to bother explaining this, but I am a stickler for correct language!
Thanks!
Hi Bianca
Maybe you are right but I belive more and more that the haunted look they have at times is more to do with being found out than any grief for their daughter.
Just looked at the video you posted unreal the day before the anniversary I still dont think I would be functioning a year down the line I would never forgive myself for leaving her alone.
Yes I have often thought what are they refering to a missing cat wallet or handbag.
xxx
Rat,
Good point. I guess the McCanns will just have to sue YouTube and the BBC for millions of dollars now?
Poor things. Ever since their daughter went missing (because they left her alone in an unlocked hotel room), all they have done is make a pile of cash (including spending money sent in from the public on their mortgage) and gone touring around Europe in smart suits.
I really feel for them in their "grief".
Hi Joe -
Anyone who was innocent of something and who also had half a brain would have jumped at the chance of going back to PdeL and helping the PJ's with whatever they wanted. Only the guilty would refuse, especially after saying they would search the ends of the earth for Madeleine. The end of the earth obviously ends in Rothley!! They've never actually looked anywhere nor shown the slightest interest in so doing!
I'm glad one of the other newspapers NOTW has had the guts to say the same as what we say on here today, and that others will follow, so the McCanns and Co will know just what the public think of their shameful behaviour in not going back for the reconstruction.
Bianca
Welcome - always good to have someone back on Viv's blog because at the end of the day we are all blogging for justice for Madeleine McCann - bless her! And it may be sooner than we think!
Irina -
Nice to see you again - we've missed you!
I have a Russian daughter in law with the same name as you - she is really sweet and we get on so well!
Hi again Hope,
Yes, I don't know how they seem to function so well either. Well enough to always look their best; organise conferences; go for jogs; laugh and frolic with their other children, and sue newspapers for thousands of pounds!
They've certainly "coped".. haven't they??
I agree that they seem to have an increasingly haunted look in their eyes (Kate especially), and I agree they have said some very weird/suspicious things since Madeleine went missing, but still, there is something rather too arrogant, not to mention casual about their attitude, that makes me think that rather than fearing the police (due to being killers), Madeleine was actually abducted but the McCanns don't really care (well, not to the extent that normal people would, anyway!) and so simply can't be bothered returning to PDL or helping the police.
Kate (apparently) said she "couldn't face" police questioning again. Maybe this is true. Maybe the questioning was grueling, and because her heart isn't really in it (i.e; finding her daughter), she simply didn't want to have to go through it again? Further, because this couple apparently have powerful contacts, maybe it was simply "arranged" that Kate wouldn't have to face any further questioning??
I know it sounds far-fetched, but really, is it any more far-fetched than them killing Madeleine, hiding her body (but still calling the police over to the hotel), then relocating it 25 days later in their hire car? Now, I am NOT saying that that scenario (the manslaughter and concealment scenario) definitely didn't happen. I'm yet to make up my mind whether I think it happened or not. But I AM saying that my proposed scenario (about the McCanns simply not caring that Maddy was abducted) is no more far-fetched!
:-)
Hello Nancy,
Actions speak louder than words and if they were so confident in their stories they would have loved to stuff the PJ but they clearly could not carry it off as all the stories are too incredible even they do not believe them 13 months on.
Imagine that brute Eugene Zapata brazened it out for 30 years dividing his family even and all he gets is 5 years.
Viv - I don't suppose you are on right now, but just to say I found today's article sad, but compelling reading!
The usual story - a couple split up, the husband is angry and jealous, and loses his temper resulting in the death of his wife.
How sad for their poor children and how Christian of them to forgive their father the crime he committed against their mother. They say that his confession, even though 30 years later, will enable them to close the door on a really tragic period in their lives.
Once again these amazing dogs found the evidence necessary to convict him all those years afterwards, so noone should underestimate them in my opinion.
What with the refusal to do the reconstruction and now the knowledge that these cadaver dogs really do know their stuff - the McCanns must be getting awfully hot under the collar right now!
We will soon see CM on his pedestal making some cockeyed statement trying to throw out any idea of using the cadaver dogs evidence in the McCanns case, mark my words!
I'm afraid the ship is beginning to sink and some of them will be jumping off and scurrying away like the rats they are!
Joe -
Yes imagine - take your wife's life and deal with that person as a butcher would a carcase and live your life for 30 years thinking noone would ever find out, and then along come these wonderful animals, the cadaver dogs, and your freedom is curtailed in the blinking of an eye! An amazing story and it should make all the headines in our papers or there is no justice!
I have a feeling some people will be visiting their legal eagles this coming week for a bit of advice!
Folks, an update on the 3As, the technical support guys are on it now and I should have news soon. There was a fire at the place where the main server is and they are still sorting stuff out.
Bianca
Many things could have happend I have not clear evidence to say what did and what did not.
I do not understand why when one of the men was missing from the table for such a long length of time they did not find this really suspicious?
I dont for one minute belive he was involved in taking her (alive) but if a friend of mine was missing for so long god help me I would suspect them (and everyone) not just assume it must have been a chance abductor. That is why it does not ring true they did not know how to react of what to say about it all.
Maybe you are right but if they really want to clear their names they need to go back and answer some questions.
I have been accused of abusing the Twins by posting here. I am sure they are being well cared for but they will grow up one day and if this is not sorted out one way or another may just find they are put under strong questioning from them.
And if anyone thinks I am abusing two small children for asking questions about the neglect of them what the hell do they think the McCann's did to those same children night after night leaving them home alone to break their hearts crying for their parents?
Got to go see you later x
I do believe that the clan will do everything to stop or discredit evidence if it comes to a trial. They have tried with the help of the scum press to destroy the PJ and one officer already has had to resign. The mobile phone data too blocked for some obscure curious reason but allowed in another case in PT Casa Pia.
Joe -
I wonder whether Zapata felt justified during that 30 years for what he did, or was he begging God for forgiveness? I suppose some people would be on a high knowing they had got away with something! But he wasn't meant to because along came some loyal creatures who turned the tables on his big secret!
I suppose the police were finally glad to be able to file the whole case away in the archives knowing he at least confessed in the end, even though under pressure!
It just goes to show that the Police don't give up easily in their attempt to find the truth and I'm sure the PJ's will give their all until the McCanns & Co are brought to justice.
I feel nothing but contempt for the whole lot of them and whoever is aiding and abetting them in trying to pervert the course of justice for Madeleine.
Joe -
It could be the Portuguese Justicia are playing their trump card in denying the PJ's access to Gerry's mobile phone details! The whole world knows about it and are thinking just like us that something is being covered up.
The McCanns & Co lost their credibility a long time ago with the discrepancies in their statements and I think with each new revelation showing them up as fraudsters the sooner someone will crack and confess all they know!
Off now for a while - see you all later!
Nx
Just before I pop off for my walk out here in the wilds, before the next shower I note that Miss Rosiepops stated the Eddie and Keela only found a piece of card in Jersey. What papers does she read . The last time I read anything was they had found up to about 30 or so pieces of bone and childrens teeth in the cellar areas.
It boils down to this Miss Pops if K&G are totally innocent then there is nothing to worry about is there, dogs or no dogs?
Joe -
You said it, and your absolutely right!
I think that even if the McCanns confess all - the pros will still say they have been beaten up to confess or some such thing.
They will never change their opinions about the PJ's - they see the McCanns through rose coloured spectacles always!
Mariana:
You are saying that ”Dr. Barnardos” has had a very bad past with illegal adoptions and child abuse.
Do you think it is possible that Madeleine was adopted from Dr. Barnardos with ”strings” attached to an abduction?
When I look at pictures of Madeleine with her parents, she does not look like a member of a family – she look more like a trophy! She is more treeted like and refered to as someone with a marketing value than a long lost and beloved daughter!
children_deserve_protection:
Yes they are very arrogant. They don't really care about Madeleine, do they - the McCanns simply not caring that Maddy was abducted? Kate would seem to greef more about a lost pair of socks and Gerry about a lost tennismatch than Madeleine!
Just to add a little dimension to my theory about the McCanns -
A few weekends ago, my parents had some friends over for dinner recently - they are a forty-something couple, and generally speaking, very nice people (I have met them a few times). They make interesting, not to mention intelligent social companions (the wife is a GP, and the husband is a respected endocrinologist).
My parents were especially pleased to have them over this night, as they were bringing (for the first time) their two small children with them (being grandparents, my parents always have treats on hand, and have an easy rapport with small kids!).
Everything was going well and the night was in full swing when suddenly, the wife announced around 7:30pm that they would have to leave in a moment. Stunned, my mother asked "why?". "Oh, it's the kids" the wife told her, "They're starting to get rowdy, and I don't want them to break anything". Now, my mother assures me (I wasn't actually there this night) that far from being "rowdy", the children (who are 4 and 6) were actually quite sedate, and furthermore, there was no way they were going to "break" anything. At first, my mum thought it was just an excuse, and that really the couple wanted to leave for another reason (although she couldn't figure out what that reason would be as everything seemed to be going so well). However, she noticed that the wife and now the husband, seemed to be getting increasingly agitated. She told them not to worry, and that the children's behavior wasn't bothering her, but the couple seemed to have clicked off from the adult conversation now and were only interested in what the children were doing. My mother says that basically, all the kids were doing was laughing, and that at one point, one of them had run into the dining room and tripped over - crying momentarily but then quickly recovering. Aside from this, there wasn't much going on, but the parents were watching them like hawks, as if they were expecting a disaster at any moment! My mum considered that maybe the kids had a history of bad behavior she didn't know about, but still, observing their innocent antics, she found this difficult to believe!
Finally, around 8:30pm, the wife announced that the children were "embarrassing" her, and that they'd "really have to leave now". She said the kids were "playing up" because they were "over tired". My parents offered the children beds to nap in (normally reserved for grandchildren) but the couple declined. Pretty soon, they were walking out the door, leaving my father with a confused expression, and my mother with a kitchen full of china and uneaten cakes!
What's this got to do with the McCanns?
My point is that different people can handle different things, and that often, personal tolerance levels are dictated by how much we've been expected to cope with in life! This couple (at my folk's house) as nice as they are, have never had to cope with anything too tough. Both were born into money, and both have had successful careers. They are used to everything running smoothly and going their way. It's not even as if they had to build careers up while also trying to raise their family, as their careers were well and truly established by the time the kids were born (in their forties). And now, one of the kids so much as says "boo", and this couple don't know what to do with themselves. They are "embarrassed" and "have to leave" (a far cry from when they go to my folks house WITHOUT their kids, and party until after midnight!).
I think it's very possible that the McCanns (who also had children later in life) had a lot of trouble coping with Madeleine (and being parents in general). Perhaps Madeleine wouldn't have been a "problem" child to most people, but to people who seem always used to getting their own way (as the McCanns do), she may have been more than THEY could personally cope with! We know, for example, that Kate felt strained enough by Madeleine to record her difficulties with her in a diary. Were these diary entries simply an over-reaction by someone who was not equipped to deal with the responsibilities of every day parenting??
If they WERE, then it's possible Kate really DID snap (as the PJ think), and kill Madeleine on the spare of the moment. However, I believe it is ALSO possible that rather than actually killing Madeleine, Kate and Gerry were simply RELIEVED when they discovered she was missing. I know this takes a particular kind of coldness, but maybe the McCanns coping capacity is super-low, and whatever grief they may have felt at having an abducted daughter was outweighed by the relief of no longer having to deal with a "problem child"?
Think about it: Golfing; tennis; releasing balloons into the air .. what do these things speak of if not great relief? It's ugly, and the McCanns are particularly horrid people, but the scenario is quite plausible to me.
P.S. Please take out the word "recently" from my opening line. It wasn't meant to be there!
Thank you Nancy, I appreciate that :-)
And yes .. justice for Maddy!
Take care xx
Bianca,
Reading your posts of today you seem to be keen to get across the point you are inclined to think it is more likely the Mccanns daughter Maddie was abducted and their attitude stems from lack of emotion and relief at her absence.
I agree with one aspect of your posts, the Mccanns, Kate in particular do lack emotion and are cold people. But your point in believing it is more likely there is am abduction I do not agree with at all.
If there really was an abduction there wouldl not have been the lies told ny Mccanns and Tapas 7, the refusal to cooperate with the Police in many ways and most importantly refusing to return to help with the reconstruction. There woudl most importantly not have been the scent of death and bodily fluids found in the Mccanns hire car, on Kate;s jeans and in the holiday flat in 2 rooms. There are all these pointers to the death of Madeleine and absolutely nothing found in the way of evidence to link her disappearance to an abduction, save for the parents insistence she was abducted. Even the discription of a possible abductor was proven false as JT who allegedly saw the abductor changed hsi description 3 times and direction he was going in...I find it puzzling you can believe more easily in an abduction, when there is nothing to point to this and the Police who have more knowledge than any of us strongly believe in the involvement of her parents. Everyone is entitled to thier own opinion and I'm not saying you are wrong, but personally I feel there was no abduction....Lizzy
Bianca,
Please excuse my bad typing and spelling , I can actually spell just can't type well..Lizzy
Hi Hope,
I agree that one person leaving the table for such a long period of time is suspicious .. assuming of course, that it even happened!
Fact is, the testimonies of the Tapas group about what happened that night - who left the table to check on the children and when, etc - are contradictory and full of holes! And my personal theory about this has LONG been that it's because the Tapas Nine knew full well that NOBODY EVER checked on those kids, and that this state of affairs could see them all potentially prosecuted for neglect, thus, the hurriedly created and inevitable mismatched "cover" stories!
I have always thought this, and the more I read about this case, the more it is confirmed for me.
I think it also occurred to them (the entire Tapas group, including the McCanns) that if Madeleine's body WAS found, they could be found guilty of "negligence leading to death", or something to that effect. To me, this probably explains the group's reluctance to answer further police questions (being that the police will ultimately see how made-up the 'checking" stories were. Even if the Tapas group later re-conferred and made the stories more water-tight, all it would serve to do is show the police how false the stories were the first time).
Take care xx
P.S. Hope,
I have heard that catch-phrase from the Pro's (i.e; "hurting the twins") many times, and have long recognised it for what it is: simply a desperate attempt to sling mud at any cost!
Don't let it bother you. If the McCanns really cared about ANY of their children they wouldn't, as you yourself point out, have left them in an unlocked hotel bedroom in a foreign country!
The Pro's method is to choose a phrase and stick to it because they simply have nothing else. It may be frustrating, but ultimately, not worth taking seriously :-)
If this is true( and the PJ will know for sure) then there is no doubt that there was no abduction as McCann himself now relies on Tanner's sighting as proof of an abduction since there is no other evidence.
24 Horas 29/05/2008
According to testimonies collected by the PJ in the Tapas Bar, only Russel O'Brien and Gerry McCann left the restaurant between 19,00 and 22,00 hours the period that the authorities believe the child went missing.
....................................
So that puts paid to Tanners sighting
Hi All,
Leigh,
I visited Fatima on the 27/5/08 and have done as you requested re Fr Pacheco.
Stella (H4Y),
I hope you do not mind, I lit a candle for you in Fatima also.
Claudia,
The HoF insults sprung to mind as I sat on a luxury coach travelling to Fatima from Lisboa. The people around wearing smart expensive suits, clothing etc. The people on buses with their I Pods, fancy mobile phones etc. The beautiful houses/apts. Third World my @rz.
My daughter was delighted as she could buy pens, pencils etc with her name on it in the shops, she cannot do that in the UK as these products do not have her name on them. It is a Portuguese name.
Bye all, off to read all the articles on here for the past week and look through the posts. Read you all tomorrow or the next day.
Viv,
Read a bit so far, great articles as usual. I saw 24 Horas front cover whilst in Lisbon on the
27/5, photo of KM on a mobile phone (I think) looking rather grim. Looks like Justice will be forthcoming.
Well Lizzy like I say, I haven't completely made up my mind about whether there was an abduction or not (or whether they killed her or not).
I have considered the possibility that they killed her many times, and have found myself at times believing it. However, I always seem to end up dropping this theory, and returning to the idea that Madeleine was abducted. In truth, I am probably basing this conclusion more on a "hunch" than on the actual facts, although I will admit this is strange, as my overall feeling toward the McCanns has been very negative .. literally from the moment I set eyes on them!
I know that what you (and many others) say makes a compelling argument: why WON'T they answer police questions? Why DIDN'T they want to help in the re-construction? (Not to mention the DNA evidence!). I understand that these things are hard to argue against. But still, I can't get past certain questions of my own, for example: if they DID kill Madeleine, then what on earth did they do with her body?? I mean, is it plausible that they could have killed her and then hidden her body with the world's media breathing down their necks? Really, how would they have done this? And what about their attitude after Madeleine was reported missing? If they were killers, could they really have been so relaxed as to laze around the pool and play golf and tennis, knowing the whole world was watching them and that the police could arrest them at any moment? Further, would they have exacerbated the media attention already being shown them by doing something like meeting the Pope, if they knew they'd really killed their daughter?
These are the circumstances that stand out for me as being strongly suggestive of innocence rather than guilt (where actual killing is involved, I mean).
I have no warm feelings for the McCanns whatsoever, and would happily see them in jail for neglect. Furthermore, if the alleged DNA findings of the PJ and the Birmingham lab were released tomorrow as official fact, it would bother me not one jot. If they are killers, then let them go to jail. However, while I am very comfortable saying they are child neglecters, I simply can't bring myself to label them "killers" until the facts are clear, official, and irrefutable.
Lizzy,
Please remember also that I am Australian and grew up with the Lindy Chamberlain case. In that case we saw forensic "evidence" submitted to court that was apparently so "damning" it was enough to put Lindy in jail (and it did - for four years!). However, upon accidentally discovering the Chamberlain baby's matinée jacket outside a dingo's lair, Lindy as not only immediately released from jail but the forensic evidence re-examined and found to be completely false!
Now I am NOT SAYING FOR SURE that this is the case with the McCanns (i.e; incorrect forensic findings), but just that it is something I often find myself considering. Also, I appreciate that there are other circumstances of the McCann case that were not present in the Chamberlain case, for example, refusal to answer questions and/or co-operate fully with police; deliberately seeking out media attention, and making money out of the tragedy.
Bianca,
If it had happened on the 2/5 it could have been disposed of before being reported on the 3/5 just like if it happened on the 3/5 it could have been disposed of before being reported. Or she could have just walked out all by herself and had a tragic accident, fell down an open drain, washed out to sea etc, disappeared due to parental neglect, parents alone to blame, no abductor. As for the way they behaved pool etc anything is possible.
Zodiac,
But isn't the (reported) theory of the PJ that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine's body 25 days after her death in their hire car?
This theory certainly conflicts with your suggestion that "if it had happened on the 2/5 it could have been disposed of before being reported on the 3/5".
That they may have killed her (whether on purpose or accidentally) is, believe it or not, something I find easier to believe than the idea that they disposed of her body 25 days later! I mean, where would they have kept it for all that time? And how would they have driven it away without anyone noticing??
As for falling down an open drain and being washed away to sea, I'm sure that Portugal is not this unsafe?? Certainly though, if Madeleine was abducted, then it is primarily due to her parents shocking neglect. They are cold and cruel and left her crying all by herself in an unlocked hotel room. For this alone, they should be jailed (IMO).
Hi, Bianca. No, it is not the PJ's theory that they disposed of Madeleine in that car 25 days later at all. According to what I've read here in Portugal, due to forensic tests, the PJ believe that something that might have been in contact with Madeleine's body was, at sometime, transported in that hire car. And those are two very different things. The thing about Madeleine's body being transported in the trunk of that car 25 days later was something the pros held on to to discredit the death theory.
Zodiac, hi!
Hope you enjoyed our trip to Portugal in spite of the weather. Spring seems to be terribly shy this year!
Hi Bianca,
I think rather than the actual body being in the car, it may be that cloths used to clean or dispose of her body might have been in the car leaving the trace of bodily fluids etc, if this is true the abduction theory is even less likely...there are many reasons I believe they are guilty, but I think the police have more evidence than just the dogs, but as you say none of us know exactly what evidence they do have. Lizzy
Hi Claudia,
Really? Well that is certainly more plausible. It is much easier to believe that something that came into contact with her body was removed 25 days later, rather than her ACTUAL body!
But still, it raises the question .. what DID happen to her actual body??
P.S. Hope you're keeping well :-)
OKAY GUYS< IMPORTANT RE THE 3A's -
please refrain from posting anything on it for the next 24 hours! It's still undergoing massive works and will be unstable for the moment. Don't worry, we WILL be back!
Hi, Bianca.
Yes, I'm pretty well. Portugal is a bit crazy today. Our National Team is flying today to Switzerland and people are/were all over thr streets and in the airport saying goodbye to the players. Pretty cool.
Well, Bianca, that is the one million dollar question. But I suppose it might be impossible to find. That challenge to the police was pretty revealing. "Find the body and prove it". Typical of grieving parents, isn't it?
The Atlantic Ocean is so large, don't you think?
Lizzy,
Unlike what some people (example, Stella!) may wish to accuse me of, I am not on this blog to try and discredit the PJ!
However, you are correct - we in the public do NOT know exactly what evidence the PJ have yet, but rather, only what the newspapers TELL us they have. Is this enough to confidently label someone a "killer"? For me personally, it is not.
Hopefully, I have made it clear from day one how I feel about the McCanns and how disgusted I am by their (self-admitted) child neglect. However, I am reluctant to say that they killed their daughter until this is officially proven. I am NOT saying the PJ do not have the evidence, just that I would like to see this evidence officially released before I can in good conscience say that yes, the McCanns killed Madeleine!
Hi everyone,
A part from an Daily Mail article in october 2007.
The McCanns had been hoping that new DNA samples taken by British police officers from their hire car, the apartment in Praia da Luz from where the four-year-old disappeared on May 3 and other parts of the Mark Warner holiday complex would help clear their names.
But a source at the FSS told the Evening Standard: "There is no reason to change the direction of the investigation and everything that has emerged indicates that it is focusing where it should.
"This is a very complex case and forensics are rarely conclusive on their own, but the new material adds to the existing picture that has been built up by police and fills in a few more pieces of the jigsaw."
The source is said to have claimed that the samples were of sufficient quality to distinguish between Madeleine's DNA and that of her twin siblings Sean and Amelie or her parents.
Hi Bianca
I am disappointed that on your first day back you are in conflict with another blog member.
I would like to point out this blog supports the police case and what the McCanns are being investigated for:
homicide, child endangerment and concealment of the corpse.
As you are clearly seeking to argue the McCanns case for them, that she was abducted, I think you are in the wrong place?
Hi again Claudia,
Well there's the Atlantic ocean and the acid baths at Huelva .. don't think I haven't thought of that!
If this is the case though, it will be very hard for the PJ to prove manslaughter, even with their DNA evidence (being that there is no actual body). I'm not saying that they won't be able to make their case, only that it will surely be more difficult?? (and no, that is not some kind of threat against the PJ but merely an observation!).
Hope Portugal does well! (you mean soccer .. right?).
:-)
Hi Atardi
and thanks for that which confirms of course, the police have very compelling evidence against the McCanns, in addition to the findings of the dogs. How likely is it they could have picked out Madeleine's toy specifically to find death scent and been in error about that.
The lack of a body makes it more difficult to prove the case but this does not make the suspect innocent (far from it!) and as the above case confirms does not stop them being convicted either!
Viv,
That is up to you to decide (i.e; whether I am in the wrong place or not). I came here in good faith as an Anti-McCann and am openly expressing the same theory I have always held (being that the McCanns are criminally liable for child neglect, but that I am unsure whether or not they actually killed Madeleine).
The only reason I am in conflict with Stella is because she jumped in on my post to someone else and accused me of secretly working for the McCanns! (read back through the posts of you don't believe this).
Viv, many times at the Pro blogs the Pro's have accused you of being an ideology Nazi and I have defended you, saying that while you hold strong opinions, you ultimately let other people air their views (provided the aren't abusive, of course). I have also defended you on other accounts, to the point where Sass often quotes me when I said of you that you "don't have a bad bone in your body". Many times I have defended you when the Pro's have attacked you Viv, even when I haven't been at your blog for a long time.
I see now though that you are getting ready to give me the boot simply because I don't agree with every word that you say. In other words, I am an anti-McCann, but simply not "anti" enough and you want me out!
I must admit I am shocked, as this is certainly not the reaction I expected from someone whose intelligence and attitude I have always admired.
Shall I leave by the back door with my tail between my legs??
This blog is not about "pros" and "antis" it is about supporting the police to obtain justice for a dear little girl called Madeleine McCann.
Your tone and language are shocking and you are not welcome here.
I agree Viv
Actually Viv, I think I AM in the wrong place.
I am far too anti-McCann to ever fit in to the Pro blog, then again, as I am unsure about the manslaughter theory, there's not really anything for me to discuss here either!
LOL, I am not really suited to either blog!
I think maybe it's best if I just leave. Maybe one day I'll start my own blog again. Or maybe I'll just wake up one morning and find the McCanns either in jail, or dropped of their arguidi status and all of this speculation over and done with! LOL!
Bye guys.
Whatever Viv!
Now I have just sent this to SKY to try and get them thinking about their biased reporting.
...This case was badly reported at the beginning and many opinions were dressed up as facts by organisations such as yourself.
Please do yourself justice and start to report what people think and what you know are the discrepancies and shallow words.
Such as...
When the McCann's or Clarence Mitchell say ''They will do anything to search for Madeliene' ask them directly 'Then why didn't you search the very first night she went missing? and why did you change the story about the shutters?... and so on.'
That is what good sound reporting should be about ie LISTENING + then countering with gentle or direct probing questions not sycophantic belief in a suspects word. Dressing up opinions as facts based on a suspects or a member of that suspects families word is not journalism and you all know it so why do it ?
IT IS NOT TOO LATE TO START REPORTING THIS CASE WITH COUNTERPOINTS TO THE MCCANN FAMILY'S SPIN. A 3 yr old girl completely vanished and there are huge inconsistencies with their accounts. People like me who work in the field of aiding a young child's development have been horrified at the way media companies have fawned over this couple and I am now asking you to behave like the major news organisation you are and to start being objective by reporting the counterpoint.
(WELL I JUST THINK IT's WORTH PLUGGING AWAY)
Bath Theory -
Good on you for sending that to Sky News!
I wrote much the same thing to the Daily Express myself!
Completely biaised reporting by all the newspapers over this case!
However, the Sun reporter, and today the Times reporter, have made their opinions known, so it could be the tide is turning and they will start thinking about little Madeleine's fate rather than her neglectful parents!
Thanks Nancy I will now do the same for the BBC and keep plugging away. I know a Radio 4 producer on the news but haven't spoke to her for 7 yrs and can't remember her name and I am flicking through my filocfax in the hope that a name flashes out to me. We were at University together. I am assuming she is still there. This moment is acrucial one to ensure the media turns around like a supertanker.
Once it turns on this the momentum will be huge.I view ourselves as modern day 'Dambusters!!'
Hiya Bath and Nancy
Maybe we just got another example of the insidious nature of the McCann campaign.
I thought the note you sent to Sky was very well argued and certainly British press have done themselves no favours in this case because on conviction of the McCanns even those who hardly ever read/listen to the media will appreciate just what a false impression they were giving, by, as you say, simply reporting the main suspects' point of view, without challenge.
The tide is beginning to turn now but that is only because the case against the McCanns has become so obvious and overwhelming and one of the main planks of their argument, just got convicted!
I think we need to remember that of course the dogs may become confused by the smell of rotting animal meat and so that is what the McCanns told us they carried in the back of their car, now it does not get much more bizarre than that, particularly given they ate out every single night!
Viv x
Good one BT! There is a lot of the media that should be taking a bloody good, long, hard look at itself!
Rat , I have been in three fires. One on a ship !!! one in my university hall of residence and one in my classroom. I do hope the 3A's are up soon.
Being a rat you are obviously a creature that can survive such 'natural' disaster !!
Before she went I wish Bianca had taken up my point which I made earlier as to what Horas 24 states nobody including Tanner but GM and O'Brien left the Tapas between 1900 to 2200 so there could be no abduction.
I meant that to say "no abductor sighting"
joe:
She had her own agenda.
Ecolab,
I guess your right, Bianca is entitled to her opinion but the post by Viv re Eugene Zapata who successfully moved his murdered wife's body about is testament to the fact it can be done and this case a small child even easier, probably with a lot of help. Zapata carried on as normal too duping his family. Bianca should read Viv's the post.
What Zapato did with the body..is this not exactly the same sort of thing the police believe happened to Madeleine, originally just hidden (beach/church) prior to being moved to a more permanent place..even then Zapata was so fearful of detection when he wanted to sell the land he moved it yet again. Clearly what killers really fear is detection of the body, because that means their time is up. As Claudia has indicated above, the Atlantic Ocean is truly massive. How did the McCanns so quickly react to this American story to seek to exculpate themselves immediately after being made arguidos in September? Was this the purpose of Gerry's trip to the States? I have often felt he is looking for a way out via the United States, where justice for killers can be bought at a price, rather than justice for victims (e.g. Jackson and Simpson). But even so, justice comes back to haunt guilty people. Simpson was found guilty in a civil trial and is now incarcerated on other offences. Jackson lost his fortunate, his reputation and his home, where he abused little children. That was justice still being served. Just like Zapato also, you can run but you cannot hide, sooner or later, you reap what you sew. There is no place for Kate and Gerry McCann to run to.
Zapata said that he wrapped her body in a tent and drove it to an area near Highway 151 and Reiner Road, where he hid it in some underbrush. He transferred her remains a short time later to some Juneau County land that he owed. There, he buried her body -- which remained there for 24 years -- before moving her remains to a Sun Prairie storage locker
Hiya Joe
One can understand Rachel and Mat Oldfield being very worried people. The evidence confirms the only people who left the table that night were Gerry McCann and Russell O'Brien. In short, not once did the Oldfields EVER check their children. This was the normal routine for this group and what does it say about the possibility of drugging? How could you just never even check your little children? As we know Gerry and OB were not doing that and for Kate her "check" was certainly a first..
We had this fellow some years back.
He abducted his dead father out of the hospital. Put the father at the backseat of his bike and gave him a tour round the city!
He was arrested shortly after , I think a couple of hours, the dead father was returned to the morge. The son was accused of improper behaviour towards a corpse and was put into jail.
I think he was in jail, when the father was burried.
The son did`nt get a sentence, but was set free after trial.
So it is possible to abduct/take a corpse or hire someone to come and get rid of a corpse!
Hiya Eco
Of course I take the main point of your above post, it is clearl possible to hire someone to dispose of a corpse for your or to "abduct" a corpse.
But in that instance my immediate thought was of compassion towards the son. What was his state of mind when he did this, was he just desperately wanting to give his dad just one last ride around is his terrible grief.
I am glad they let him straight back out of prison but do not think he should have ever been there, it must have compounded his terrible grief to miss the funeral which is how the grieving process can start to take place and help people to heal, mentally. I really do pity this poor man.
Viv, Darling
I am just trying to make some things fit together:
"They taken her" and
"make sure they understand, she is abducted" Kate told her mum(I think) something like that!
Bath completely changing the subject I too have been involved in a serious fire.
I went out for a drink with a friend years ago to a country pub. We sat at the bar and the door to the kitchen was behind me.
I suddenly said to the landlady I can smell a strange smell, it smells like burning plastic. Her face just went puce and she rushed to the kitchen door, opened it and clouds of thick black smoke came pouring out, she quickly shut it again and started to raise the alarm. People were shouting and panicking because you needed to go past the kitchen door to exit the front door of the pub, but some went that way. My friend and I located another door that led to the garden of the pub and from there we could see the kitchen completely ablaze..the landlady left something cooking. Within a few minutes the flames were coming out the roof. The next door neighbour stood from his bathroom window throwing buckets of water onto his conservatory roof ..we shouted to him to get out but he would not listen. Eventually a lovely little firewoman came and got me and my friend but the pub was almost completely gutted in the ensuing blaze and shut for about a year to refurbish. I left an expensive cardigan and scarf in there in our rush to get out but will never forget the shock of just how quickly it all went up and about four fire engines ambulances in the road outside as we were led out.
Hi Ecolab
Yes it has always been about the McCanns seeking to brainwash the public, a very extreme example of criminal staging which of course the police were immediately onto "they've taken her".
Even now, the McCanns speak far more of needing to publicise Madeleine's abduction than actually trying to get her back...and they never once mentioned the reward money. There is a limit to how far the human mind will allow you to go.
Gerry says in his own blog in May there is a senior British Police Officer out there working on the case and yet they have sought to critise the Portuguese Police, it was always a joint effor to net a couple of serious criminals who had disposed of the vital piece of evidence, hence they brought the dogs over and they picked up the forensic traces of little Madeleine, in spite of all the efforts of the McCanns to completely erase her. Murderers do get caught because forensic evidence is now so sophisticated, no matter what tiny trace or odour a victim leaves behind, it will be found.
Hello
CM should be allowed to keep on spining on camera the more excuses he trot's out the more the public will start to question what they are being told.
I guess we have to be patient and see what the PJs next step is.
Slowly slowly says it all (thanks leigh) xxx
Hi all,
Let me say something to Bianca!
Bianca,
We are pro justice, we are anti injustice!
We are pro children; we are anti child abusers, child killers, child neglecters’ parents!
We are pro police; we are anti anyone who tries to discredit its work, just because they fill like!
We are pro truth, we are anti manipulative liars!
We are pro Madeleine; we are anti those who never have done anything to search her, now or in the past year!
We are pro co-operation, we are anti obstruction and those who have refused help the police!
If any of this is, in any way, related with the McCanns actions, then we probably are anti McCanns too but always Madeleine McCann supporters!
Always justice supporters!
Is this your agenda? Make wars? What is it your purpose? Attack Viv and her blogers? No one here has attack you in the way you had attack Viv on the others blog!
You are the VILE one!
Get a life dear!
Ciao!
children_deserve_protection said...
Well guys, I'll give you credit for one thing ... Viv really IS Vile!
Yes .. it's now official!
It appears she sees herself as the personal keeper of justice for Madeleine McCann, and will lash out spitefully at anyone who isn't prepared to sit there and go into long, drawn out, blood and guts details as to how they think Maddy was supposedly killed by her parents!
She knows I am open-minded about the manslaughter case and that I am very anti-McCann in sentiment, but apparently, that is not enough for her any more! She wants "yes, the McCanns killed their daughter" and nothing else! Simply saying "I am unsure" or "maybe they are guilty" isn't good enough for her.
Then you have all her pathetic little minions jumping on you and accusing you of having an "agenda" if you do not state explicitly and repeatedly that "THE McCANNS KILLED MADELEINE. THE McCANNS KILLED MADELEINE"!
Really, the atmosphere of paranoia at that blog is simply a joke now!
Furthermore, I love it the way Viv sanctimoniously shouts at me that her blog is not about "pro's verses anti's" but a "dear little girl called Madeleine McCann". Hmmm, where were these high and mighty ideals when you were posting funny pictures and poking fun at the "Pro's" on your home page just a couple of weeks ago Viv?? It was all fun and games "blogs wars" THEN wasn't it .. what happened??
This woman has developed an inflated sense of herself to the point where she simply can not tolerate anything that seems to contradict her own personal world view. She has made it so that only zombies and clones are "allowed" to post at her site ("Yes Viv", "No Viv", "Three bags full Viv, etc!) and it is truly pathetic. I used to have respect for her intelligence and her views, but I now realise I was conned! She is nothing more than a hyped up ego-queen, who demands the constant adherence of her "faithful" over the internet to feel validated.
Oh well, looks like my "mockers and knockers" were right, and that I don't belong at EITHER site (Pro OR Anti). That is fine - I am not going to change my centrist views simply to make either extremist side happy!
People know where I stand on the Mccanns, and if either side doesn't like it, they can jolly well get f#cked for all I care!
Ciao!
01 June 2008 20:57
Hi Ana
She crawled back under stone:-))))
If they think sending people in here to cause trouble is a clever tactic, then they just show they are not very clever..They are not going to close this blog, now matter how hard they try. Sooner they accept that the less time they will be wasting trying.
McCanns will be charged by end August - I continue to make that prediction!
Viv x
Well, i like Bianca. I truly believe she is passionate about children and their safety. I think she's just a bit upset to be honest.
The only thing I think she has always been wrong about is that there was an abduction, but that's fine by me.
Viv, darling
Do you still remember the guy, I told you about. Who killed his girlfriend and her two young boys? Chopped them into pieces and put them in black plasticbags in puplic bins all over parkinglots all over the country.The bodyes are never found.
He was convicted on behalf of the forencic results the PJ and snifferdog found in the villa, even if he tryed to clean the place up. * So much - for catch me if you can or was it - find the bodies and prove I did it?*
The mental examination stated, that he was a psychopat of worldclass. He got life. It is 5 years ago. About every year he wants to reveal something and he is getting his prime time and limelight.
Hiya Ecolab
Gerry, in particular, has always displayed psychopathic behaviour:
Conning, manipulative, glib superficial charm. This is why I put the two pictures up, one where he thinks he is going to get away with it and one where he is losing control.
"Well find the body and prove we killed her" - extreme arrogance and nothing that would come from the lips of a normal parent no more than cashing in on her death would be normal, but it is standard behaviour for psychopaths to be obsessed with money because they equate money with power, something they crave.
Hi everyone
Hi Ecolab
I would not not think that any org would even attempt to be involved with an illegal adoption of a such high profile case.
I believe Madeleine is dead.
If this was a genuine abduction, the minute GM decided it was a good ploy to take advantage of Madeleine's eye cleft, she would have been killed within 24 hours.
Viv, you are right about Gerry, but don`nt forget: "Birds of a feather flock together."
I did send you two pictures of Kate to put along with her crow ;-))
Mariana...Well, but they did expect something to happen...just not that!
Who was saying that?
Hi Ecolab
I am not saying Kate has does not have personality disorder, I think she does, but the major problem with her is mental health. I think she is controlled by Gerry, and in an intelligent woman the damage is very obvious. You only have to observe the way she looks at Gerry, sometimes for approval and sometimes a look of loathing. You also only have to listen to the way she speaks and the need to use bizarre mannerisms when asked a particularly difficult question. This is a woman who can no longer function as an intelligent, independant personality IMO.
Viv x
Viv, hi
I very rare disagree with you ;-))
Ecolab
"Who was saying that?"
Sorry I can't understand what you mean.
Hi Viv
How are you?
Mariana
One of the Tapas 7(a man) did say: "We were expecting something to happen, but not that."
I think this lady says it all so much better than I can in her article below and is really well worth a read, as to how Gerry has looked to the American model of brainwashing people to accept what politicians say is right, but what they actually planned, e.g. a war. The control of the media etc, when you read this there are startling realisations to be made in relation to the conduct of Gerry McCann:
Official Culture in America:
A Natural State of Psychopathy?
Laura Knight-Jadczyk
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm
Ecolab
I have just come on and read through and seen your post about the bloke who abducted his dad from the morgue and drove around the town with him on the back.
I have literally rolled around my floor with laughter. Thank you so much. It just tickled me thinking about this bloke talking to his dead dad as he drove him around town one last time. How did he get him out of the morgue?
Viv
It seems I can now smell a fire before anyone else. As a 4yr old I woke up on a ship between New Zealand and Fiji and there was smoke in our cabin 4 floors below deck. Ver y frightening. Anyway, I am here alive.Instead of losing a cardigan (my commiserations) I lost a K'Plunk game.
Elsewhere, back to representing Madeleine,Do we know who looks after the McCann files as they have some good stuff on it. Another tonight looks good for Madeleine in that the McCann lot are complaining the British police are not bothering to interview one of the Metado style planters. Fantastic !!
I am so so pleased with the main story re the dogs that they uncovered. Can you imagine the legal team looking over at the McScammer lawyers now when the cadaver dogs evidence comes up.
Roll on August.
Hiya Eco
Well no one is allowed to disagree with me on this blog, according to "supertroll" anyway:-))))))))
Ecolab
Thank you, I see. Yes I believe it was David Payne who is quoted as such.
Hiya Bath
I am glad I smelt the fire that night even if no one else did before it burst through that door and right at me!
I think the McCanns have been far more subtly seeking to undermine Det Sup Prior and his team at Leicester for months by the oft repeated claim that there should be an independent review by "New Scotland Yard", clearly implying they are in some way superior and could do a proper job.
Williams Thomas whose agency for public speaking is actually based in Leicester (what an odd coincidence) certainly chants this mantra. But who is he to criticise the work of such senior detectives..Rebelo and Prior! An ex detective constable who left before he got any higher for reasons we do not know, but could hazard a guess..I think he actually displays a real resentment towards the police and just loves to criticise them, due to own inner feelings of resentment. Clearly he is also a media puppet who will say whatever the McCanns pay him to say
Hi Bath
As I recall, he dressed up the father, put him in a wheelchair and abducted him out of the hospital (He was in the six-houer room), and the nurce was out of sight. The son put the father at the backseat of the bike, with a helmet of cource and gave his old father a last ride.
Hiya again Bath/Eco
Well you know you could look at this with concern as to his mental health and equally you could look at it as being an example of real black comedy!
Come on dad, wake up!
Viv x
Mariana hi
David Payne...hmnnn...they have been up to something. We have a hidden agenda here!
Post a Comment