Hi all, Ratonthebeam referred us to these two pictures on the posts below and I just had to include them from 3 Arguidos. The one below is him going into the the police, he looks sly, very shifty, arrogant and slightly worried, but when he comes out he looks absolutely gutted, in fact almost in tears. I remember commenting about this one before, the one and only time I have seen Gerry look really worried and upset. Now this does not have anything to do with losing his daughter, it has to do with the one thing Gerry just cannot cope with, not being in control. He even tried to rush off but had to be held back by the solicitor to face the cameras, now funnily enough he does not normally have a problem with that, does he¬!
The child the McCanns just did not want and never thought of how much misery and harm they caused to little Amelie and Sean by taking their big sister away from them, for ever.
The saviours of Madeleine Beth McCann and her little brother and sister, from wicked parents, Goncala Amaral and Paulo Rebelo. When things go wrong for defenceless little children there are devoted police officers who will fight for victim's right. We honour them and all their hard work to bring this couple to justice, against all odds and in the face of appalling abuse, from those who sought to defend a couple of child abusing killers. May they hang their heads in shame for their racist abuse and total lack of concern for little children and their right to safety, to life.
Gerry in July 2007, when he believed his revolting plans were going to bring him fame, fortune, and the right to mix with some of the most important people in the world, his prison cell awaits.
Gerry, caught like a caged animal, in about October 2007 when reality was beginning to dawn and showing what he is really like...
Having run away from Portugal the McCanns start to show the strain of being hunted
The McCanns triumphant in the early days in PDL having killed Madeleine and started to cash in from a massive fund, where they made Madeleine "an icon". Wicked, despicable, evil. Kate cynically carries her press prop "Cuddlecat" which reeked of Madeleine's corpse.
The final picture of Madeleine Beth McCann on 3/5/07 with bruises to her wrist and legs
The child the McCanns just did not want and never thought of how much misery and harm they caused to little Amelie and Sean by taking their big sister away from them, for ever.
The saviours of Madeleine Beth McCann and her little brother and sister, from wicked parents, Goncala Amaral and Paulo Rebelo. When things go wrong for defenceless little children there are devoted police officers who will fight for victim's right. We honour them and all their hard work to bring this couple to justice, against all odds and in the face of appalling abuse, from those who sought to defend a couple of child abusing killers. May they hang their heads in shame for their racist abuse and total lack of concern for little children and their right to safety, to life.
Gerry in July 2007, when he believed his revolting plans were going to bring him fame, fortune, and the right to mix with some of the most important people in the world, his prison cell awaits.
Gerry, caught like a caged animal, in about October 2007 when reality was beginning to dawn and showing what he is really like...
Having run away from Portugal the McCanns start to show the strain of being hunted
The McCanns triumphant in the early days in PDL having killed Madeleine and started to cash in from a massive fund, where they made Madeleine "an icon". Wicked, despicable, evil. Kate cynically carries her press prop "Cuddlecat" which reeked of Madeleine's corpse.
The final picture of Madeleine Beth McCann on 3/5/07 with bruises to her wrist and legsSweet little Madeleine Beth McCann makes her final journey
McCanns last desperate attempt to proclaim their innocence by stating they wish to be the saviour of children, how sickening, how perverse.
Public defender, Clarence Mitchell
McCanns last desperate attempt to proclaim their innocence by stating they wish to be the saviour of children, how sickening, how perverse.
Public defender, Clarence Mitchell
Hi All, in the brief newsflash in Correio de Manha it is announced that there is now an Order not covered by secrecy of justice that the McCanns are now to become DEFENDANTS for the crimes of murder, exposure (to risk of serious harm) abandonment and concealment of Madeleine's corpse. This has also been confirmed on Portuguese TV and also in the newspaper 24 Horas.
It seems to me the Portuguese Prosecutor is quite determined this couple will be convicted, hence all charges that may lead to a conviction being made against them. The second charge relates to the fact that they placed her at risk of being taken by a kidnapper. In this respect, in an attempt to save themselves, they provided further evidence against themselves. They initially said the window got jemmied and the shutters were damaged. When this was shown to be false, they said, well we left the door open. By stating they left the door open this clearly left them wide open to a charge of gross negligence. I always thought this aspect of the evidence was absolutely fundamental and crucial.
So, Clarence was not making a slip of the tongue when using the term "defendants" rather than arguidos for the McCanns, he was obviously announcing the inevitable, that they are about to be charged, it looks like, by July. I presume, the McCanns and their friends have refused to co-operate with the proposed reconstruction for fear of further incriminating themselves but they cannot say they were treated unfairly by being given the chance to come and explain. There is no way they can explain.
JUSTICE FOR DEAR LITTLE MADDIE, AND HER BROTHER AND SISTER WHO ARE SIMPLY NOT SAFE WITH THIS COUPLE, AT LAST!
God Bless her and may she rest in peace, safe from further harm with the Portuguese people, who have always sought to save and protect her x
Ana and Claudia have kindly stated they will update as soon as further news breaks but no doubt you will all be looking now we have finally got what we always wanted!
May 28, 2008 - 00:30 am Order: McCann defendants for death, abandonment and concealment of corpse Prosecutor takes murder It is the first court order not covered by the secrecy of justice that assumes that research to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann closing the suspected crimes of murder, exposure, abandonment and concealment of corpses. About all developments in the case of the disappearance of Maddie in the Wednesday edition of the newspaper Correio da Manha.
Please see also this video of Kate and Gerry McCann being interviewed on the anniversary of them murdering Madeleine where Gerry describes her as an "icon" and claims the Police cannot prove a "negative". Well they can, and whilst his indictment for murder may be a negative to him and his wife, it is very positive to us, for justice for a dear little child, done to death by her own parents and her body disposed of like rubbish, a truly wicked crime that they must pay the price for committing and seeking to cash in and make her an "icon" in death, inspired by just how much money the Diana Princess of Wales Fund made following her own tragic death. There are no real words to describe their despicable behaviour.
Please read the comments of my dearest Portuguese friend Claudia, below:
Cláudia said...
In that interview, Gerry aks how people can prove a negative, he states it is not possible to prove they aren't in any way involved in what happened because anyone can smear other people. You know what, Gerry, it's true, anyone can smear anyone. However, parents of a missing child should certainly be more worried about finding her and what happened to her than concerned about what people say and think. As for proving a negative, Gerry, you know, there is a very simple way to start doing that. What about doing EVERYTHING to help authorities, Gerry? What about answering ALL questions, Gerry? What about returning to the place where your daughter went missing, Gerry, when authorities ask you, after you stated for the whole world to see that you would return as soon as requested? What about starting there, Gerry? What about not sorrounding yourselves by PRs, spin doctors, and double teams of lawyers both in Portugal and in the UK, some of them specialists in extradition matters, Gerry? What about getting on a plane as soon as it is reported your daughter has been seen somewhere in this God's world, Gerry? What about not planning an anniversary event almost a year ahead, Gerry? What about staying with your children instead of leaving them to meet your friends, Gerry? What about that? You see, proving a negative isn't as hard as you think, Gerry. Unless you're lying, of course. That can make things a bit more complicated.
Wednesday, 28 May 2008 00:15:00 o'clock BST
In that interview, Gerry aks how people can prove a negative, he states it is not possible to prove they aren't in any way involved in what happened because anyone can smear other people. You know what, Gerry, it's true, anyone can smear anyone. However, parents of a missing child should certainly be more worried about finding her and what happened to her than concerned about what people say and think. As for proving a negative, Gerry, you know, there is a very simple way to start doing that. What about doing EVERYTHING to help authorities, Gerry? What about answering ALL questions, Gerry? What about returning to the place where your daughter went missing, Gerry, when authorities ask you, after you stated for the whole world to see that you would return as soon as requested? What about starting there, Gerry? What about not sorrounding yourselves by PRs, spin doctors, and double teams of lawyers both in Portugal and in the UK, some of them specialists in extradition matters, Gerry? What about getting on a plane as soon as it is reported your daughter has been seen somewhere in this God's world, Gerry? What about not planning an anniversary event almost a year ahead, Gerry? What about staying with your children instead of leaving them to meet your friends, Gerry? What about that? You see, proving a negative isn't as hard as you think, Gerry. Unless you're lying, of course. That can make things a bit more complicated.
Wednesday, 28 May 2008 00:15:00 o'clock BST
285 comments:
1 – 200 of 285 Newer› Newest»Viv
Last night we discussed how the texts were not able to be read and now I wake up and see this. FANTASTIC NEWS, please be true.
All we have ever wanted is this couple to feel the heat of a courtroom and for direct probing questioned to be asked and answered.
If they are not guilty it will quickly be shown but if the opposite is shown (as we all believe) then they will be delat with swiftly too. A 3yr old defenceless girl vanished off the face of the earth and she deserves to be represented.
JUSTICE FOR MADDIE
Hiya BT
I have always believed this couple would be brought to justice and certainly believe this report is indeed true.
As you say, all theories will now be tested in a court of law and if they are not guilty of murder but guilty of gross negligence then they can face the lower sentence for this and defend their innocence on the murder charge. Personally, I believe they have no defence to murder but they do have clever lawyers. They are going to really need them!
As far as the reconstruction goes I have just found a report in Correio from yesterday saying four of the friends refused to go, so this obviously tells us four of the friends are guilty people. I anticipate an announcement they will also be charged. I have included in this the comments of some Portuguese people to the article because they are very informative and interesting as to views of ordinary members of the public in Portugal, essentially, of course, they think no different to us in the UK. Decency and justice is not divided by race, no matter McCanns supporters wanted to suggest that it was..
May 27, 2008 - 17h42
In the absence of four players
Recovery of the disappearance of Maddy cancelled
The reconstitution of the facts concerning the disappearance of British child Madeleine McCann, scheduled for Thursday and Friday, was cancelled due to lack of four of the players, informed this Tuesday the Attorney General's Office (PGR).
According to a note of the PGR, the investigation was' given no effect 'because of' already announced no show 'of four friends of the couple McCann who were on holiday in the tourist resort of Praia da Luz, Algarve, when the child disappeared, May 3, 2007.
Kate and Gerry McCann showed willingness to participate in rebuilding the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, but their friends put in question the validity and the proposed model.
'COMMENTS
May 28, 2008 - 00h54 | rosita
The PJ is not naive. This may have been a bait to find those who refuse or not. After all, would not be as important to rebuild and PJ must have always known that it would not acontecer.Que Tapas 9 without class!
May 27, 2008 - 22h27 | rosita
They are running the PJ as the devil's cruz.Isto me very contrary. But one day they will pay for what they did. Justice will be done. Force PJ!
May 27, 2008 - 22:00 | maria
Kate and Gerry have proved available already knew that because some of friends do not and that did the restoration. It was everything and this combined strategy and the signature of guilt that has much to everybody already knows. We can not know that that the MP hopes to move on this with the accusation of negligence and obstructing justice to the Mccann and friends. Mudem the status of friends and break the pact. Enough!
Viv
You are blessed !!!!!! Fine work
:)
The CNN link is most telling. He still can't stop stratching and moving around. It remind sme of the playground song...
LIAR, LIAR, pants on fire !!!!
(IMO)
Hiya BT
Yes that interview is very telling, at least Kate has the intellect to not keep pulling her ear and rubbing her nose, something the psychologists will explain to us are classic behaviours of someone who is a real bloody liar!
Viv x
Hiya all Atardi sent me this by email and I have got it translated from Dutch. I think it is very interesting. Did Madeleine suffer because of both poisoning and aggression, very possibly. What parent would drug their own children, and why were the twins drugged so heavily, I have a good idea why, poor little things.
I still keep thinking of the report of Madeleine running away from them and hiding on a previous night for about half an hour. How frightened was she, and how bizarre for a little child to feel the need to run and hide from her own "parents".
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The UK is currently plenty of speculation about the fate of Madeline McCann (May 12, 2003, Leicester, time unknown). The reason for this is a message today on the front page of a French newspaper appeared. Madeline would by an overdose of sleeping pills have come to life. What says her birth horoscope this? Is it possible to overcome the horoscope of Madeline McCann about her fate to find out?
It is for me as a mother - from the beginning - incomprehensible that parents relaxed with a group of friends could eat - while their three children alone in an apartment sleep. Every parent knows that a child may be so awake. Not only that, a child of Madeline's age is quite enterprising and with a young Twins there. That you just do not. Right? I never could understand. --- But if you know that they really go to sleep - and will not wake up because they have received a plea is the story different.
Now the horoscope of Madeline McCann. The horoscope, Mercury - the breathing - the lungs - a square with Mars (aggression) and Neptune (chemicals poison). Mars / Neptune is in opposition with Jupiter - excess - too much of one. Jupiter is also square Mercury. If you're a bi-wheel viewing of the disappearance and Madeline's horoscope you will see that Mercury on the day of the disappearance akkelige the square in the birth horoscope touches - exactly! The Saturn / Neptune opposite of earlier this year begins with a walk and make an exact square with her Sunday - here we see the great Mystery. After watching these two horoscopes together - I must honestly say that I have enormous doubts on the sincerity of the McCann.
Sorry to be a party pooper, but let's not get carried away here.... the word used was Homicídio, which can mean either murder or manslaughter (culpable homicide). The big divide (and it's a helluva a big divide, by my understanding of Portuguese law) is if there is intent or not. I don't think the PJ ever established intent, so Viv it might be an idea to change your headline from "murder" to "homicide"? Just a thought. Either way, it is still fantastic news. Justice on the horizon at last for poor wee Madeleine!
Also , please take a moment to watch this video, made by Miss Take of the 3As. I thought it was very good.
Off to work now, CYa all l8tr!
Hi ROB
Manslaughter :homicídio culposo
Murder: homicídio
Claudia and Ana translated and it definitely says murder, unfortunately for the McCanns, although as you say manslaughter is still a very serious charge, there is no mention of this in the report.
Viv x
Hi Viv and Claudia -
Thanks for another grear article and hopefully an answer to all our prayers for justice for Madeleine!
Watching the video (thanks for that link) - I hadn't seen that interview before. Another bit of 'happy talk'! - I don't think the woman interviewing them believed a word of what they were saying.
When asked how their everyday life is now Kate smiled and said a little bit boring - can you imagine a supposedly intelligent doctor coming up with an answer like that a year after her daughter went missing!!
And it only too a few days after she went missing to starting feeling better then - well we know that by the photos we've seen.
Shame on them for their smugness and deceit!
Justice for Madeleine!
Nx
Gerry McCann kept touching his nose and his face, and that is a sure sign of someone who is nervously lying!! I think they are both liars and even worse!!
Hi Nancy according to another McCann sycophant, Mark Williams Thomas, who in spite of only reaching the rank of "contable" describes himself as an expert; Kate is a "broken woman", er now! She certainly did not look broken at the loss of her daughter in PDL did she! I am thrilled we are about to see this couple charged.
Williams Thomas knows far better of course than Detective Superintendent Prior of Leicestershire Police..somehow I could see Supn Prior wiping Williams Thomas off the sole of his boot and no doubt the very senior officers investigating this matter in Portugal would do likewise. What a jumped up little twit. I thought I would publish his comments here, just to show what a money grabbing little liar who actually knows nothing, he is too! I wonder why he left the police when young and only a constable, could it be they dispensed with his services!
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'Maddy search must go back to basics'
May 3 2008 by Sarah Manners, Western Mail
A LEADING child protection expert is calling for a full review of the investigation by Portuguese police into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
On the first anniversary of the young girl’s disappearance from the family’s holiday apartment in Praia de Luz, head of child protection for the Welsh Rugby Union Mark Williams-Thomas, says a completely fresh investigation, based on the findings of a comprehensive review is the only way to find out what really happened to Madeleine that night.
Mr Williams-Thomas has been involved with the case since Maddie vanished while her parents dined with friends at a tapas bar, leaving their three young children sleeping alone.
“What is absolutely crucial now is that there must be a review starting right from the very beginning, with a completely new investigative team to be able to conduct this,” Mr Williams-Thomas said.
“Now whether that is a police review, a private review with Gerry and Kate and a new private detective firm, whatever it is it must start right from the very beginning to ascertain exactly what information everybody had. And with that done, I think there’s a great chance of finding out exactly what happened to Madeleine.”
The McCanns, below, are still using the Portuguese-based Metodo 3 private detective agency, but are themselves unable to return to Portugal to help search for their daughter as they are still officially regarded as “arguidos”, or suspects, in the case.
Mr Williams-Thomas, a former detective constable with Surrey Police Force, said he is also urging the Portuguese authorities to either charge Kate and Gerry McCann – or remove their crippling arguido status.
“I have asked the Portuguese Police to either pursue the allegations against Gerry and Kate with any charges or immediately lift their arguido status so they can return to Portugal,” said Mr Williams-Thomas, who now runs WT Associates, a child protection and risk management consultancy.
“Kate and Gerry should not be sitting in limbo as they are, and I don’t accept that it takes this long for the Portuguese police to be able to come to a decision.”
While recognising a genuine desire among the Portuguese police to find out what has happened to Madeleine, Mr Williams-Thomas listed a damning catalogue of failures in the critical early days of the investigation, which he now believes has left the case “no further forward than we were two weeks after Madeleine first went missing”.
His criticisms of the Portuguese police include:
Failing to treat the disappearance of Madeleine as critical incident;
Failing to apply resources immediately;
Failing to consider the severity of what could have happened to her;
Failing to preserve the crime scene;
Failing to do basic analysis of the sheets on her bed and items in her room;
Failing to issue any media appeals or circulate any information – five days elapsed before the media was even told what Madeleine was wearing when she disappeared; and,
Failing to provide one central phone number to ring for people with information until a week after Madeleine vanished.
Incredibly, Mr Williams-Thomas revealed the Portuguese police still do not have a media strategy to deal with Madeleine’s case, or indeed any other missing child, one year after the story first broke.
He said: “Their whole strategy in dealing with the press has been flawed. This is a story that has gripped the world’s imagination, and yet the Portuguese police still don’t have any media strategy.
“Ten to 15 years ago, British police started to deal with these types of cases and in that time have gained massive experience.
“I would like to see British police experience applied to the investigation in order for them to do the very basic elementary stuff.”
But perhaps Mr Williams-Thomas’ most damning criticism of the current investigation centres on the lack of effort being made to find Madeleine.
“There are two lines to this investigation,” he said. “First and foremost the Portuguese police are looking at Kate and Gerry McCann as suspects behind Madeleine’s disappearance.
“And then there are their efforts to find Madeleine, but these are very much a secondary concern.
“For the past six to eight months they haven’t done anything to look for Madeleine.”
Mr Williams-Thomas, who has worked on a number of major crimes involving children – including the murder of eight-year-old Sarah Payne in 2000 by predatory paedophile Roy Whiting – added: “It would be good to know what has been followed up, to a degree, and yet there hasn’t been any detail disclosed whatsoever.”
Mr Williams-Thomas says he does not believe police in England and Wales need to introduce an American-style Amber Alert system to combat child abduction.
The McCanns have been campaigning for such a system to be introduced across Europe, a move backed by Mr Williams-Thomas.
“In England and Wales we have already have the Homicide Working Policy, which means we don’t have to have a separate Amber Alert,” he said. “Anybody who goes missing in the UK, where the circumstances are not immediately clear, should be treated as a critical incident.”
This means under the agreed protocols, police immediately employ a vast range of well-tried resources and techniques to deal with the disappearance, with the media strategy just one fragment.
“But from a European and worldwide point of view where they don’t have such clear policies, then the use of Amber Alert as a standalone could be very effective,” said Mr Williams-Thomas, a father of three.
But he added, “It’s worrying that if European countries can’t even accept a simple Amber Alert system, you wonder how they can go any further and develop a strategy or policy for dealing with missing persons.
“Yes, Kate and Gerry should push on with the Amber Alert scheme. But I’d like to see focus return to finding Madeleine.
“We need to get back to the very basics of this case.”
He added: “There is always hope. Gerry and Kate must, quite rightly so, believe Madeleine is alive. And there is always hope that at some stage a piece of information will be given that enables that jigsaw to be put together.”
But while deeply sympathising with the McCanns, Mr Williams-Thomas did criticise the couple’s lack of early acknowledgement that they were wrong to leave their children alone in their holiday apartment.
“There will always be people who will be critical, whatever you do. Some will have valid points to make, some are just a pain.
“Arguido status is one thing, but there has been a considerable amount of criticism about leaving the children there in the first place,” he said.
“I wish they’d come out in the early days and said ‘We’ve got to live with this, yet in hindsight we would never have left our kids alone there’.
“I called for them to say that when I was out with Sky in the first week, and I think that had they have done that, much of this undercurrent that follows them around would have been dealt with and we could have got on with the proper issues.”
Mr Williams-Thomas talked candidly about his relationship with the McCanns, describing Kate McCann as a “broken woman”.
“I get on with them,” he said.
“Over the past 12 months, I’ve had a lot of dialogue with the team.
“Kate and Gerry are very different people. Kate is a broken woman. Her inner strength as we saw before, that was simply a snapshot.
“In the early days she was criticised – why wasn’t she crying, why didn’t she go and run off.
“I’m sorry, but that shows a complete lack of understanding of how grief manifests itself.
“Now she’s a very, very broken lady. Gerry is just as strong as he can be to try to keep together.
“They both have their positive days, but then they also have their dark, negative days.
“The longer that it goes on with no information and nothing going on, then the harder it is.”
Criminologist Mr Williams-Thomas’ own theory of what happened to Madeleine is bleak.
“I think on that evening she woke up crying and went looking for mum and dad and they weren’t there.
“She went out of the apartment, wandering towards the tapas bar to find her parents and she was abducted outside the apartment.”
But he maintains that Madeleine’s fate need not remain a mystery for ever.
“With a full and thorough review of the investigation to date – and a fresh inquiry which goes right back to basics, I really believe we can one day find out what did happen to Madeleine McCann that night.”
Sounds like even Sky News turned against them: McCanns always reluctant to take part and now know they will not have to. No, but they will have to take part in their trial!
From other reports it seems that it is four of the friends who refused so I am keen to know who the three are who are obviously helping the police. My guess would be Diane Webster and the Oldfields,we shall see!
Viv x
Madeleine Reconstruction Called Off
Updated:23:44, Tuesday May 27, 2008
A reconstruction of the night Madeleine McCann disappeared has been scrapped after members of the so-called "Tapas Seven" refused to take part.
Missing: Madeleine McCannPortuguese police had invited Gerry and Kate McCann back to Praia da Luz to take part in the event later this week along with the friends they were dining with when Madeleine vanished on May 3, last year.
The McCanns' spokesman said the decision had been taken by all of the couple's friends.
Clarence Mitchell said: "The friends had a number of serious questions about the value of the reconstruction and what it would do to help find Madeleine.
"After some discussion, they have informed the Portuguese authorities that they do not intend to go back."
He added: "Gerry and Kate have not refused to go back. They were aware of their friends' view and they are now not needed for the reconstruction."
Mr Mitchell said there were questions over the usefulness of a reconstruction more than a year after the event and how it would help find the four-year-old if it was not to be televised.
Reluctant: Gerry and Kate McCann"Frankly," he insisted, "the police and the authorities in Portugal did not answer the simple question: What will this do to help find Madeleine? And that is why this proposal did not have legs."
It is the second time it has been put off and the McCanns have always been reluctant to take part.
The couple are still considered official suspects or 'arguidos' in the case.
Sky's Martin Brunt said: " It was only a request from the Portuguese police, not a demand.
"The McCanns felt that many months ago their own suggestion of a reconstruction had been turned down.
"They felt that there would only be a good reason to hold such a reconstruction if it was used as a widely televised appeal for help and information."
Good Moring All,
Today’s Mail article is very ambiguous the headline reads ‘suspicious McCanns’ its only when you read the article you realise they mean the McCanns are suspicious of the pj intentions regarding the reconstruction. Or is the Mail trying to bat for both sides?
I copy the article below so you can reach you own conclusions.
"Madeleine reconstruction scrapped after 'suspicious' McCanns refuse to return to Portugal to take part
By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 12:54 AM on 28th May 2008
Maddie: A re-enactment of her disappearance has been scrapped
A planned reconstruction of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann involving her parents and their friends has been scrapped over suspicions about the motives of Portuguese police.
Kate and Gerry McCann and the so-called Tapas Seven - the friends they were dining with in the resort's tapas restaurant when Madeleine vanished - had been due to fly to the Algarve tomorrow.
The plan was to re-enact their movements leading up to the discovery that the three-year-old was missing. But a family friend revealed yesterday how some of them had pulled out after growing uneasy about the decision to stage the replay more than a year on.
The friend said the McCanns, both doctors from Rothley, Leicestershire, believe it would have done 'absolutely nothing' to help find their daughter not least because police had refused requests to televise it.
The couple and the Tapas Seven - friends Matthew and Rachael Oldfield, David and Fiona Payne, Russell O'Brien, his partner Jane Tanner and Dianne Webster, Mrs Payne's mother - were due to take part in the reconstruction at the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz.
Their decision to pull out will further damage relations between the police and the McCanns, who were made official suspects in the case in September.
Madeleine disappeared from the bedroom of the family's holiday apartment on May 3 last year. Her parents deny any wrongdoing.
Kate and Gerry McCann: Maddie's parents had been due to the fly out to the Algarve
A friend of the couple said: 'It was a case of all nine of them take part or it doesn't happen at all from the police's point of view, so the whole thing is off.
'The whole group have had grave reservations about the value of it. They want to help the police but keep asking themselves "Why now, more than one year on? What on earth is it going to achieve?"
'They also question why it was not to be televised and why police just want the nine and not other holidaymakers and staff to take part.'
Mrs McCann, 40, her 39-year-old husband and their friends had originally been asked to return to Portugal two weeks ago. But the date was extended because the couple had been undecided about the trip."
Hi Wizard
I think they just refused to go because they have been advised by lawyers not to, because it would further incriminate them.
If they had nothing to fear clearly they would have gone, but as we know the McCanns are going to be prosecuted anyway!
Viv x
Hi Viv, hope you are well:-)
Thank you again for headlines that keeps me away from the iron-board before I'm off to work!:)
The Telegraph wrote this yesterday:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2039181/Madeleine-McCann-reconstruction-%27called-off-by-Portuguese-Police%27.html
"But the couple, from Rothley in Leicestershire, have decided not to go back."
“But Kate and Gerry and their friends cannot see the point of all the disruption it would cause to their busy work schedules and families if, as they believe, it will do absolutely nothing to help find Madeleine.”
--
Please, please all newspapers in this world, print this message that the parents of a missing child refused to help the police because they were to busy at work!!!
--
Niki
Morning!
The PJ have already done a reconstruction following their statements and knew they wouldn't come..
After this latest news and developments, do you think CM is going to continue working for them?
Hiya Niki
good to hear from you, I see in the Telegraph it stresses it was the McCanns themselves who were refusing to go, contrary to what Clarence is now seeking to suggest..blaming it all on the friends.
Below is an extract from the Telegraph on 2 October saying KATE would risk going to prison to speak out about what happened, but when she gets the chance the fear of prison proves just too great for her! How strange, how convenient, to have a witness of putting your child to bed, a bit like how Gerry just happened to call the woman to the table at 9.30 to prove he and Kate were there ...leave no stone unturned eh..I dont think the police are at all convinced, and never thought they would be!
=====
Mrs McCann has said she would be willing to risk going to prison by speaking out about the events of May 3 in breach of Portugal's secrecy laws. As suspects, or arguidos, the couple are prevented from speaking about the investigation, and have expressed frustration that they are not able to defend themselves against increasingly lurid allegations regarding their daughter's fate.
Despite the ban, they are in talks with chat-show hosts in the US in an attempt to remind people Madeleine is missing.
Yesterday, the McCanns spent a quiet day in their home town of Rothley in Leicestershire, marking 150 days since their daughter disappeared.
They are adamant that she was abducted but police in Portugal were described as "100 per cent" certain that the little girl died in the family's apartment in the Algarve.
A senior detective told Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas: "The only thing to investigate is how the body disappeared." The newspaper claims Madeleine fell down steps at the back of the apartment. Photographs taken at the time show a children's safety barrier above the steps.
The new theory emerged after a report from Britain said specialist sniffer dogs had detected the "smell of death" on the steps, it was claimed. In the past, Mr and Mrs McCann, both 39, have been accused of hiding their daughter's body because she had been sedated.
But yesterday, a source close to the couple hit back at the allegations.
"Where is the proof that this happened? Madeleine was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness. When is Madeleine supposed to have fallen?
"If the police are 100 per cent certain that Madeleine fell down some steps, that means they must be able to prove she died in that way. It's just not possible without a body."
The couple's spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, added: "It is just ludicrous. All of these reports are unsourced and unsubstantiated."
Hiya Marga
I await with cynical amusement the next move of Clarence Mitchell, but if I was him, I would want to go and crawl under the nearest stone. There again, I am not him, and such people have no shame or conscience, he will stick it out as long as he feels necessary to help his fame and fortune, book sales etc.
The CM article is still not online.
I think I'll buy it on my way to work.When I return I'll let you know if in the meantime the electronic version isn't available.
Cu later
x
Hi Viv,
Either way, it's progress!
BBC News 24 are also reporting that it was the McCanns who were refusing to go back.
A massive Own Goal IMHO!
BTW,
Look at this thread from the 3As when you have a minute - very first post - two photographs of Gerry, side by side.
Prepare to be stunned. A picture says a thousand words, and these two pictures compared say plenty.
Hi Viv,
Yeah, Kate would take a lie-detector-test too...
Have to run, the pile of cloths can wait until tomorrow:)
Marga, look forward to read the CM article!
Have a nice day:)
Niki
ROB! Thank you for the link to the pictures! Great:)
Niki
Goodmorning all.
What will Clarence do now?
If we consider why he was put in his position in the first place, who he was really employed to protect, you will see what will happen next.
Mission 1
Manipulate the public and prevent the truth from coming out at all cost.
In the event the first mission fails, immediately engage next mission.
Mission 2
Deny all links to PM.
Deny all conversations between Gerry and the PM.
Deny knowing what the McCann's did.
Claim to be shockedwith the news.
Claim to have had the wool pulled over your own eyes from the start.
Claim they have ruined your life.
Write a book......
Well Clarence, when you decide to do the last bit, I will be forced to buy a copy, but when I am finished with it I will leave it in a very public place with a note asking the next person to do the same. To cirulate the book free of charge to as many people as possible. We could look upon it as an unofficial small but very worthwhile refund to all the poor people who contributed to the McCann scam fund !!
Viv -
So what does this Mr. Williams-Thomas have to say about the forensic evidence then. He thinks Madeleine woke up and wandered off and was picked up by a paedophile.
Oh yes, a paedophile was just hanging around waiting for a child to walk out late at night! He calls himself a criminologist!!
And when he says that the PJ's delayed in looking for Madeleine, then what about the fact that the McCanns didn't look in at all on the night of the 3rd but stayed at home praying!
He is looking at the whole thing in a very one sided way and obviously has a trumped up opinion of himself - never mind the mistakes BP's and all police forces make where human error must come into it, just pick on the PJ's! OK maybe a few of his criticisms are justified, but the fact they were called to the crime scene after 40 minutes to allow the McCanns and their pals to trample all over what evidence there was didn't help matters.
To my mind he is just another toadying sycophant of the McCann team like many others they have around them, who don't give a damn about what happened to Madeleine as long as the McC's and their pals are protected!
Quick! Talksport Radio! RIGHT NOW!
Hi Stella and everyone -
I thought that Kate was too fragile to go for the reconstruction! Now it seems she is going to do some US chat shows!
She and Gerry are trying to convince the British public that they wanted to go back but won't be able to because the tapas pals don't want too. Hogwash!! They have obviously put their lapdog pals up to refusing to go to let them off the hook, but I'm afraid their nasty little tricks won't work! They are all a bunch of snivelling cowards!
I can't wait for the PJ's to say 'McCanns - you are nicked'!!!
Must go and read a few newspapers now - back later.
Nx
Rat -
Haven't got talksport radio here in Spain - tell us what they said later if you get a minute!
Thanks
Nancy x
If the Correio da manha headline is true and the Prosecutors intend to prosecute the McCanns then if proved it will show the world that there was no abductor and discredit Tanner and suggest she is a liar and all the Tapas will be shamed and setting up a fund knowing that Madeline was not alive.
Joe
A Birdie, you got it in one.....
The article in the CM gives not much further details. Only that the PJ wanted to know the content of the 14 messages sent by gerry on the night Maddie disappeared and of the other 4 the day after to a phone no. that is still unknown.
(IMO it is that one of the 10th Tapas).
There was also a list of 10 phone nos. the PJ wanted to have access.
Hello, everybody.
Do you think the McCanns are in a good mood today? :-)
There is still sth about Pinto Monteiro who is the general procurador: He wanted the PJ to have access to the contents of the sms.
BBFN
I’ve always thought Tanner was trying to help out the McCanns by her alleged sighting of bundleman but when you think about it, it doesn’t add up. However, her partner O’Brien, father to her children and the family’s main bread winner was missing during a crucial period of the alleged abduction without any witnesses, independent or otherwise, to collaborate what he was or was not doing between 9.30 and 10.00pm. Tanner’s sighting was clearly just to protect her partner in case a finger of suspicion was pointed at him.
Claudia
I think they are both having PMS today...:-> > >
Wizard
That has always been my understanding, it is as if she never had a choice.
Still think her statement of "I was carrying", will prove quite significant in the end.
Stella, lolololol
Claudia,
IMO they have demonstrated how brazen they are over the last year and it will not concern them as they know that if it comes to a trial the PJ/Prosecutors still have to get them back to Portugal, possibly the hard way, extradition.
It would be great to see tanner et al having to return to Portugal to defend their friends and the world knowing the charges that are made. I think many of them will bottle it
Marga
Once charges have been laid and a day in court booked, I cnanot see how anyone can refuse the PJ access to those messages. It would be a criminal injustice, which will seen to protect potential muderers..
Wizard -
I've never believed Jane Tanner and I don't think many people have! She didn't even come across as a very clever liar on the Panorama interviews! Also she changed her mind so many times about the abductor, what Madeleine was wearing or covered in etc, she discredited herself right from the start.
The McCanns think that the reconstruction would have done absolutely nothing to help find their daugher! Well that's exactly the same as the McCann's have done - absolutely nothing, except perhaps make themselves a small fortune for life!
The PJ's don't want the reconstruction filmed, and so it's nothing to do with what the McCann camp want actually. The crime happened in Portugal not the UK and it's up to the Portuguese authorities to make decisions on how to solve it.
The bare faced cheek and contempt of this couple never ceases to amaze me!
The day of judgement cometh!!!
I bet they are all biting their nails down to the stumps!!!
Stella -
To my mind the fact that these messages are being withheld by the Judge, reveals all! If they were innocent messages then there would have been no objection to the PJ's seeing them at all in my opinion!
Pouring with rain here - not at all like almost June in Spain! How is it there and how are you Stella?
Wizard ,
The weird thing about O'Brien is that why is he not under suspicion by the McCanns if say an abduction took place. His alibi is not watertight is it?
Joe, as long as it makes them sweat, I'm cool!
Joe -
I think you are right - their very powerful extradition lawyers will do everything they can to stop their clients' return to PdeL! I don't know if they will succeed though because there must be something under EEC law that allows extradition to all countries within Europe. The same if the UK wanted a suspect back from Portugal, I think they would have to agree. I'm not certain mind you, but I'm sure that's right.
Nancy
If you think about it, there is not one person who can say hand on heart how well they know someone, what they would or would not do, can they. So if the PJ wanted to do a reconstruction to prove who out of the group would have had time to take Madeleine, that would have been quite usefull. OB was missing the longest and they never once quetioned where he was what he was doing? Why? Because I would of, If I were Kate I would have suspected everyone, even my own husband.
Claudia -
I think you will find they are probably all steaming right now, especially knowing that most of the newspapers are on to their nasty little ways! They may not say so in so many words, but if you read beteen the lines, it's patently clear that not many of them believe a word of what comes out of their mouths!
Stella,
I agree with you that should be the case. If charges are firmly laid then that will change the perspective of the case. At the minute IMO its heavyweight phone companies such as Vodafone and 2 others would block the release of the info. in the interests of the company and all its users for privacy reasons as much as it was probably the McCanns lawyers as well.
Nancy
We had a really bad storm last night, I had to get up just before 2 a.m., it was really scarry. So much rain, it feels like October.
Concerning the messages, they must be really bad news, very incriminating. They probably confirm in writing what a scam this was right from the start. If they are refused this information, I think the whole country should march on Downing Street.
Nancy, I hope they feel that way! :-)
Stella -
To be quite honest, the McCanns know that there is no point in going back really because Madeleine, as the majority of us think and feel, is not coming back! If by chance it was a paedophile who took her, the chance of her still being alive with the very obvious eye defect would have put paid to that.
I feel certain that Madeleine, finding herself alone and terrified, went to look for her parents and fell down the steps. I read that the PJ's found evidence of Madeleine's fall on the steps.
Either that or she was overdosed, and the twins along with her.
She was found dead on their return and the parents and their friends have covered it up to save their necks.
So they know that if they do go back they could very well slip up with their stories and put their foot right in it - after all we all know the McCanns are very bad interviewees!
I do think now that this is nearing the end of their complacency in thinking they got away with IT!!
Joe
It is not the phone companies blocking that information, no way. They would not give one hoot about the contents of those messages. People will never find out what phone company is involved, so why would they care.
The only ones who stand to gain from that information being witheld is the McCann's and everyone who is working very hard to protect the "Lie".
Stella -
You are right - nobody knows every other person, except perhaps their very closest family members. I have always had a strange feeling about O'Brien and I don't know why. He and Tanner have a very strange aura about them!
We just had a clap of thunder here that made me jump out of the chair! Normally I start to use the shared pool here on June 1st, but I'm sure the water is still freezing so I'll put that on hold!!
The info. in the phone messages must be a) incriminating or b) to a person whose identity must be kept secret or c) both the above.
If incriminating then McCann still went about the last year shouting abduction and all the rest, despite knowing what the messages say. He must know that such messages would be discovered and could prove him wrong in his assertions.
Anybody else would have stayed silent or at least not made statements that they knew could be proved wrong. Not logical or wise if this proves to be the case.
The Matthew Wright show were discussing the refusal of mc's and friends not going back.At last some are questioning there behaviour.
I have taken this from 3 A's to save me writing it.
Amanda Lamb, one of the weekly panellists, picked out a newspaper article from the Daily Mail about the McCanns pulling out of and not returning to Portugal for the reconstruction.
She was questioning why they weren`t going back and said "if it was my daughter that had gone missing I would do anything to help the investigation"....and went on to say how the McCanns had said they would do so .....but it "was odd" that they weren`t going to ..she then went on to give the reasons as stated in the paper.....a year on..the value ..etc...
Matthew Wright, the presenter of the show`s comments were,"Isn`t a reconstruction more important than going to visit/see the Pope?"
He also said "Isn`t it a bit contradictory that they are willing to do anything but not willing to do that?"
Amanda Lamb said it might be because one /some of the Tapas 7 didn`t want to go...
Nancy
Blood on the steps cannot only mean a fall. Blood could have dripped there from a bag, it could have been transferred there on someones shoes or an item in contact with blood put down on that exact spot.
If they could not swing the abduction theory, the walking off theory was the next best thing for them. Sadly there is no evidence to suggest either.
Joe, imo the Mc's do not think O'Brien being missing during a crucial time suspicious of relevant because they know exactly what happened to Madeleine and where she is.
Joe
Why are the contents of those messages playing such an importnat role right now.
The PJ knew about them last July/September. Gerry in his own words said we're f****d. So everyone knew back then..
Could it be that the McCann's have just been told what they are being charged with, Clarence let it slip only yesterday remember, so could their legal team be trying to pull out legal-eeze as an excuse to prevent the PJ from using that information.
Stella -
Yes,that's true, the blood could have to on the steps in any of the ways you say. It's just that I find fall on the steps explanation more feasible than anything else.
A child wakes up in a strange room, calls out for her parents, and not getting a response, gets out of bed, finds the door open, and walks out in a sleepy way and falls head over heels down the steps! It's just a theory of course, but if it is true the PJ's found blood on the steps, that puts paid to the overdose theory, and the only other alternative would be too awful to even think about, i.e. she suffered a mortal injury through no fault of her own.
Let's face it, whatever the scenario the McCanns and their pals would want it covered up to save their necks!
Do you think the extradition lawyers will be able to prevent them having to go back to Portugal? I don't think so, as we all abide by EEC laws now?
Moita Flores on Sic saying that the reconstruction will never take place because the Tapas have been lying from moment 1.
Stella -
I'm sure the McCann's lawyers in Spain are being very highly paid so they will pull out all the stops to prevent the PJ's getting hold of the phone messages!
This couple seem to have everything sewn up to keep them safe in their bubble, but I've a feeling it's going to go off with a big bang very soon!!
When you think about it, if they really were innocent would they go to such lengths to try and prove it!! I think the majority of people picked up their guilt from that very first interview when they stepped off that plane! It was written all over them!
Nancy
Your last point is a very good one, and I guess at this stage no one really knows. We are all part of Europe, but we still trade with GBP and not the Euro, so who knows. I hope they finally accept the game is up and they need to sort this out now before the twins grow up.
Nancy,
Ana posted the full judgment last night and if I am correct the reason for the PJ not being allowed access to the messages is a legal technicality. Initially the case was abduction or disappearance not suspected parental involvement so the PJ did not have the right documents/warrants re mobile phones in place and the courts then refused as these warrants cannot be granted retrospectively. At least thats my interpretation of it, I may not be fully accurate.
Wizard,
Thats it exactly if they REALLY believed an abduction then O'Brien has no real alibi so as you said they do not suspect him as they may know what really happened.
Hi all,
Moita Flores was saying on sic that we must have hope because for the first time the prosecutor is talking about homicide and they must have proves of that!
The request about the reconstruction was made by the rogatory letters in last September!
They knew that if they attempted the reconstruction, all their lies would be exposed!
There was an attempted do to the reconstruction when they were still here but because of the media coverage, that was not possible!
The PJ is focused, more now than ever, in the justice for Madeleine and he thinks they will succeed!
Ana, exactly.
Who knows, darling. Who knows?
It looks like the PJ have played this beautifully,they knew they would not comply to a reconstruction,and they have proved to the whole world that tapas 9 and CM has been talking hot air about how co-operative they would be if asked.
Cláudia,
Did you saw it too Hun?:)
My hope is better now!
Oh , and he also said that, we all will have a big surprise when told who was wearing the clothes of the “abductor” that JT saw!
Ana, yes, I dsaw it. I love Moita flores. he rocks!
As for the 'abdcutor's' outfit, it's no secret gerry owns similar clothes. he gav an interview where he was wearing them.
Bye, guys!
Leaving for work.
Yes darling, Gerry is F****D!lol
The Smiths told the same thing, they thought that was Gerry they saw that night!
Can’t wait the files to be open!
Waves at all the pros!lol
Bye Cláudia, "see" you later!.)
Have a nice day at work!
From Gerry's blog.
Is he confessing?
"Sometimes people do things for reasons that even they cannot understand. An act of madness, an accident or sudden impulse can lead to consequences that people may never have imagined or intended. Faced with such a situation we believe any human soul will ultimately suffer torment and feelings of guilt and fear."
Dolores
What date was this written?
Jon Gaunt had a phone-in this morning on Talksport Radio this morning, discussing several things in the news and amongst them, the refusal of the McCann friends to go back to PDL. He had a number of callers and emails on the subject, some of them (in fact probably most of them! lol) people from the 3As.
He was so desperate to get someone who actually agreed with the McCanns to phone in, that he was practically pleading for people to get in touch - finally one woman did, and then a man. But it took a while and they didn't put up much of an argument IMHO.
there's a thread about it here, it is now 27 pages so I would advise you to start from the end and work back. I'll try and find a transcript or podcast later, because he said some very interesting things.
The researchers apparently spent the entire morning texting Clarence, trying to get him on the show, and he eventually refused! The reason being he was "not in a position to speak for the Tapas 7"! In other words, the Big Pink Wuss bottled it completely because it's never stopped him before! :)
ROTB
Thanks for the link, I would have loved to have listened to that this morning, I missed it.
I think Clarrie has finally been gagged!! and about time too..
I have e-mailed radio 5 and texted them to ask them to start reporting this story. If anyone else could aid and do the same for say SKY and ITV then we may yet convince them to start to show more balanced words on them and at least report the fact they are going to be charged with murder.
Firmes y Dignos
Stella
I was written prior to them being made arguido's 28th Aug 2007
XD
Afternoon,
Well, if the McCanns really ARE to be charged, we will enter the next phase in the saga: Getting the Extradition Lawyers to Work For Their Money...
Correio da Manha
28.05.2008
Order: McCann defendants for death, abandonment and concealment of corpse
MP is suspected of murder.It is the first court order not covered by the secrecy of justice that assumes that research to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann closing the suspected crimes of murder, exposure, abandonment and concealment of corpses.
Those charged with criminal evidence Gerry and Kate and for which they were made defendants.The order, dated April 29 and delivered by the ratio of Evora, has to do with the MP's request to hear the SMS and MMS sent and received in ten different phone numbers before and after the disappearance of British girl.
The judge said that there desembargadores and confirmed the decision of the 1 st instance of the Court of Portimão that PJ could only hear those elements had been required listening in real time.That is, for the SMS sent and received before May 3 the authorities should have required the use of that form of evidence even before the child had disappeared.
According to the judgement, the PJ and MPtinham asked the three national mobile telephone operators (TMN, Vodafone and Optimus) to send in digital media (CD or DVD) of the complete listings of telephone traffic for calls made and received in the period of time between the day April 28, 2007 and September 9, 2007.
They wanted also the location of mobile devices and the trace-back (that allow the tracking of equipment and its inclusion in a certain radius in hourly precise) and the calls when roaming.
The authorities provided the judge the ten phone numbers that should be checked, and has requested to be identified another number. This phone, Gerry had received 14 written messages and other four on the day after the disappearance of Madeleine, the content that researchers wanted to know.The judge rejected the request.
Evidence FORENSES FUNDAMENTAL
The arrival of the first forensic results was essential to the turning of research. It was based on these initial data from the English laboratory that researchers have accused the McCann. Parents no longer become victims and suspects, in an atmosphere of great tension. Important was the report that gave account that the traces found in the car driven by the couple were the genetic profile of English girl. The data were not yet decisive.
GONÇALO AMARAL FALOU OF DEATH
Goncalo Amaral, the coordinator of the Judicial Police of Portimão which took over the investigation to the disappearance of Madeleine, defended the thesis that the girl died on May 3.The investigator, who has now been dismissed from the police and now is preparing to write a book, believed that the child died on the night of the disappearance, in a household accident, and that the family was instructed to hide the corpse. In the book promises not disclose details of the case known.
RESEARCH IN ESBARRA The RECONSTITUI Ç Ã
The reconstitution of the moments preceding the disappearance of Maddie, May 3, 2007, vai no longer hold.
The investigation was scheduled for tomorrow and Friday, but the lack announced the four friends of the couple McCann, who were on holiday in Praia da light in May last year, has caused the Attorney General's Office cancel the recovery.
The investigation was' given no effect ', confirmed the PGR in a note.It is recalled that Kate and Gerry were willing to participate in rebuilding the disappearance of her daughter Maddie, but the friends put in question the validity and the proposed model.
According to the spokesperson said the couple to Lusa, 'it is not up to Gerry and Kate McCann dareconstituição the achievement because they are defendants and, if requested their presence, they will have to go. "
Clarence Mitchell throw 'the blame' for friends, it means they have 'the right to question the usefulness of the year and if even vai to help find Madeleine McCann: the answer now seems to be no'.
PROCURADORES UNDERSTANDING WITH DIFFERENT
The prosecutor of the 1 st and the body have different understandings of the relationship.The first asked for access to the messages.The second, a prosecutor -General, defended the unfounded simply to appeal. The judges gave him reason desembargadores.
ACÓRDÃCOMMUNICATION
The MP argued that there is no reason to distinguish between the content of SMS and MMS messages and lists of telephone traffic.'Where the law does not distinguish, no one is given distinguished', said the prosecutor.
PRIOR AUTHORIZATION The judges considered that there was a prior judicial authorization.'I do not think the use of legal norms concerning the seizure of correspondence' said the magistrate.
NOTES
Case - NEW FACE
Billy Butterfield was the new face of PJ chosen to lead a sensitive research.So far results are not yet known
RAPTO - MURAT APONTADO
Robert Murat was the first defendant of the case.The Portuguese-British defendant was formed by abduction, but the investigation found no evidence to that effect
Gonçalo Amaral was dismissed after having been the target of strong criticism by the English press.Portuguese newspaper ultimately dictate its output
Tânia Laranjo Wanda Laranjo
Joana Morais has got other news on this case.
Would you like to share it with us?
Afternoon All,
Excellent news, reported by our Portuguese friends (well done, Claudia and Ana), ably assisted by their English 'news desk' ;-), Viv xo
Dolores and Stella: see why the article quoting Clarence's use of the word 'defendant' was so significant, and I was keen for Ironside to see it?
What now? One probability: criminal charges relating to the events in Portugal will be followed by criminal charges relating to actions elsewhere, e.g. the fraudulent 'Fund', and interfering with witnesses (ref: the actions of Metodo3, and some British nationals).
Slowly, slowly catch ALL monkeys...an gorillas, perhaps (hey, Stella? Tapas9 is a very odd number).
Also, I agree with Stella's opinion about CMs ultimate aim which extends beyond the self-confessed child neglectors, and their friends).
Just flying past. Hope you all enjoy the day, and see your determined efforts rewarded in the months to come.
P.S. The ground has been prepared for another PR ploy: "criminal charges confirm T7 and the McCanns were correct to refuse reconstruction, and doubt PJ motives." or words to that effect. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
I agree with LGC who has often said that these people are determined to brazen it out.
However, this is a weird case, unprecedented; possibly the first major scam of the 21st Century if police suspicions are correct, so I think it's right to be cautious about the timing of any further actions/announcements by the relevant authorities in all respects regarding the McCanns, and others.
Just a thought.
xo
leigh
Rat -
Many thanks for the link to the programme - I'll take your advice and read from the end!
Dolores -
Thanks very much letting us have that long report. I get the gist of it, but if anyone on here has the wherewithal, which I haven't, and can precis it into plain English that would be great - I can never understand these google translations! And who the heck is Billy Butterfield when he's at home?
Nx
Hi All, have not had chance to read all the posts yet, just got back in, but I did see the one from Ratonthebeam referring us to two pictures of Gerry, one going into the police station, and one coming back out again. I just had to include them on the top of this thread. Sly, shifty, arrogant but on the way back out, simply stunned, almost in tears! He realised the police are in control, not him, something Gerry just cannot handle, not able to give the police a backhander is he!!
Hi LGC -
I would love to be a fly on the wall of those solicitors' offices!! 'Bloody McCanns' will be what most of the staff will be saying!! I can imagine the Instructions to Counsel being typed up right left and centre now! I bet they use the best Barristers money can buy!
I hope the lot of them, including their lawyers end up with egg on their faces and that the the PJ's make them all squirm!
OMG! Finally! What jaw-droppingly great news!
I think we were all a little despondant that they may just get away with it after all of the adversity that the brilliant pj received, and that justice would never be done for poor little maddie. There is still a long way to go and an uphill battle to get them in court and then prove them guilty althoough I doubt this would ever have arisen without 100% certainty of the guilt of the McCanns.
I wonder whether there will be news headlines tonight on this? I hope so and finally the message will be out to the world that these two doctors, presumably very intelligent, won't get away with what they have done and if they can't, nobody will. The truth will be out and then all will be very aware of what can happen if you abandon your children for a night out. Maybe the other mysteries of the case will be known too. Such as: did the McCanns sedate their children?
Poor, poor Maddie. The McCanns campaign has been an insult to the little child's existence.
May she be at peace oxo
Leigh
I have noticed in the past when news articles came from Portugal,then printed in our press, it always mentioned 8 tapas, apart from G & K.
I have a strong feeling they know who the 8th one is.And I hope this person gets named regardless of what high profile he may have.
Dolores -
I seem to remember something about a relation of Gerry's being there either before or after Madeleine disappeared and after a disagreement about Madeleine catching a plane home. I don't know if that's him the PJ's are referring to as the 8th tapa friend.
I was reading up about Mrs Fenn on the McCann files. It seems that two newspapers wrote details of interviews with her, but then she strongly denied talking to them. Seems strange really considering she was the person who heard Madeleine crying for so long. I wonder if someone got to her to make her decide to say nothing further about the subject!
Nancy
Months ago I posted on DX about either G's uncle or brother being there that night and that an argument had arisen between them he apparently hot footed it out of PDL with one other person of high profile who was at the table,and they left on a private plane.
Nancy
I think Mrs Fenn is just being a very obedient witness in refusing to talk to anyone. I don't think she would be 'bought'considering how upset she was at Maddie crying for almost 2 hours.
I completely agree. Very unusual for an elderly lady to be bought like that. I reckon her testimony will be the icing on the cake.
By the way Viv, the two piccies of Gerry you have added are virtually a visual dictionary definition of the words 'unsettled' & 'sinister'
Top work
Dolores I remember the post you on the DX too. Love to know who these two were. I remember it being reported about a brother or uncle and it was discussed about the body being on the plane and further discussed when the bag was found by the road.
Dolores -
I remember some talk about one of Gerry's relatives having a bit of a disagreement with K&G and going back to the UK. I'm not sure if that is tapa 8! Perhaps someone else can remember more about that!
Dolores -
I seem to have posted twice about Gerry's brother! I thought I had lost the blog as it sort of vanished!
No, I don't think Mrs Fenn was bought but I just wondered if she was pressurised by anyone from the Embassy or someone else! I know she sounded very angry on the video denying having spoken to the press. I know the press can exagerate on interviews, but it seems strange that she denied speaking to two separate newspapers. I'm sure she is just behaving as witnesses should and keeping information to herself until the time is right though!
I feel sorry for the poor lady having to listen to Madeleine crying, but to be quite honest, if that had been me, I would have gone to the MW staff if I had heard it for more than 15 minutes! Strange that she didn't!
Just a link to Oct 19th which mentioned in the Daily Mail (safe brown noser of these two)about this issue of all children being in the McCann's room. Could it be that OB + KM drugged them all at the same time and Madeleine was the one that reacted badly. maybe that is the link between them all ie THEY ALL HAD THEIR CHILDREN DRUGGED THAT NIGHT. Who knows.
Any one else got a theory as to why or how all the children being together is significant.
...Portuguese newspaper '24 Horas' says that forensic evidence analysed by both Portuguese and British experts proves that all three children had been drugged.
The report suggested that Madeleine's brother and sister Sean and Amelie may also have been sedated because it had earlier worked with Madeleine herself.
The news comes after yesterday's claims that police are now investigating 'significant' evidence that Madeleine was left in her parents' apartment with six other children, including Sean and Amelie, on the night she disappeared.
Detectives believe the seven friends holidaying with Kate and Gerry McCann in Portugal also left four of their young children in the couple's apartment.
Yesterday, police said that the presence of so many youngsters would make it highly unlikely that four-year-old Madeleine was abducted.
Up until now, it was thought Madeleine was left with just her brother and sister, two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie, while the adults in the party went out to eat in a nearby tapas bar.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-486646/McCanns-threaten-sue-Portuguese-claims-Madeleine-twins-sedated.html
Here is the news on Joana Morais site:
28 Maio, 2008
Tapas Seven would have been arrested, if they were Portuguese - 24Horas
McCanns’ friends refused to cooperate with the reconstitution
Here they would have been already arrested
They were notified about the reconstitution of the disappearance, but they are not coming. If Kate’s and Gerry’s friends were Portuguese, they would participate under detention
The last hope for the Polícia Judiciária (PJ) to be able to reconstruct the steps that were made by the McCanns and their seven friends on the evening of Maddie’s disappearance, has been demolished. The reconstitution of the events of the 3rd of May, which was scheduled for next Wednesday, was annulled.
“As arguidos, Kate and Gerry were forced to cooperate with the authorities, and they would attend. But their friends decided not to go, because they failed to understand the usefulness of this diligence”, Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns’ spokesman, said to 24Horas. “The friends were formally notified about the reconstitution, recently. The couple had been notified already”.
According to Mitchell, the PJ has always made it known that “either all of them were coming, or none of them”. As is obvious, a reconstitution only with Kate and Gerry would make no sense…
If they were Portuguese, they would be subject to a warrant
The fact that the seven friends of the McCanns have been notified as witnesses for a diligence of this type and failed to attend, would have serious consequences if they were Portuguese citizens. “First, warrants for attendance would be issued. If they would fail to attend, then arrest warrants would be issued and they would have to pay a fine. Which means that they would be attending under detention”, a source from the Public Ministry explained to 24Horas.
According to the same source, “arguidos and witnesses are obliged to attend the diligences, provided they have been officially notified”.
England “is one of the countries where the cooperation with foreign authorities is worst”, the source detailed. Through the international channels, the PJ could still use an international arrest warrant against the friends, but for a reconstitution that depends on the good will of everyone, this step will never be taken.
The Prosecutor’s Office informed yesterday that the reconstitution was cancelled due to the “already announced failure to attend” from four friends of the McCann couple. The note from the Prosecutor’s Office does not specify which ones are the four “non attending” friends, who have dragged the group along.
Clarence Mitchell, speaking to 24Horas yesterday, mentioned the withdrawal of the seven friends, as a group. The “Tapas Seven” (known by this name because they dined with the McCanns at a tapas restaurant in Praia da Luz on the evening of the 3rd of May) are: David Payne, 41, a colleague of Gerry; his wife Fiona, 34, also a doctor; Payne’s mother, Dianne Webster; Matthew Oldfield, a doctor, and his wife Rachel, 36, a consultant; and Russell O’Brien, 36, and his partner Jane Tanner, 37.
Request to access the McCanns’ text messages originated a mess
Prosecutor against colleague
The prosecutor Luís Verão, in Évora, did not agree with the position of his colleague who is responsible for the Maddie case, Magalhães e Menezes, concerning the request that the latter made to the judge, to gain access to the McCanns’ mobile phone messages
A prosecutor against another prosecutor is rare, and when both magistrates are working on the same case, it becomes unheard of. This happened in the Maddie process: Luís Bilro Verão, the joint general prosecutor that was nominated for the case, did not agree with the appeal that was made by the Public Ministry in Portimão – contesting the lack of access to the contents of the mobile phone messages that were sent and received by the McCann couple before and after the little girl disappeared.
The ruling from the Relation Court in Évora, which rejected the appeal, even refers the opinion of Luís Bilro Verão. “In this instance, the joint general prosecutor, in his learned opinion contained in the pages 22 to 97, understands that the appeal should be judged manifestly unfounded”. In other words, the prosecutor Luís Verão pulled the carpet from under the feet of Magalhães e Menezes, the magistrate who is responsible for the case.
According to the ruling, the contents of the messages could only “be the object of real-time interception, with due judicial authorization”.
Messages before the crime?
Within the Polícia Judiciária, the decision from the Relation Court in Évora was not well received. “It’s an illogical position. It would be impossible for the PJ to request for listening operations or to view text messages before the crime even took place”, a source at the Polícia Judiciária commented.
The McCanns’ spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, only commented that “Kate and Gerry have always made their telephone and computer records available to the PJ”. If the PJ would have been able to access the mobile phone messages “that would not have been a problem because the McCanns have never had nothing to hide”.
McCanns and friends warned about the reconstitution
Rogatory letter contained notifications
The parents of Madeleine McCann and the seven friends with whom they dined at the Tapas Bar, on the 3rd of May 2007, at Praia da Luz, in Lagos, Algarve, were officially notified by the Polícia Judiciária, just like 24Horas reported, through the rogatory letters that were sent to England, early this year, which were partially carried out during the month of March – the letters had been sent in October 2007, but were returned due to procedural mistakes –, to participate in the reconstitution of the events of that day. The reconstitution was scheduled for the 15th and 16th of this month, but the date was, uselessly, changed into the 29th and 30th of this month.
“Contrary to what the couple has always said, they were not ‘invited’ to return to Portugal. It was only asked, in the letters that were sent, when they and their friends would be available to carry out the diligence. But the diligence was officially ordered”, guaranteed a judicial officer that is connected to the process. “The State was prepared to pay for the full expenses of the trip and the respective accommodations under normal conditions. But absurd demands were made. But these are foreign citizens and there is little that we can do”, the same source concluded.
Footnotes
MURAT. Even if the reconstitution was taking place, it is almost certain that the man who was first made an arguido, Robert Murat, was not formally notified, as reported by “Diário de Notícias” yesterday.
PGR. The Republic's General Prosecutor announced yesterday that the reconstitution of the night when Maddie disappeared was not taking place on Friday. But the PJ’s senior officers had not been formally informed. They found out about the cancellation, through the journalists.
WATERFALL. Gonçalo Amaral, the former coordinator of the PJ in Portimão, continues to write, on a daily basis, the book that he will publish after the judicial secrecy over the case is lifted. And it is almost certain that it will contain data about the McCanns’ telephone calls.
TRAFFIC. The PJ was able to find out who spoke to whom on the day that Maddie disappeared, because they had access to the listings of telephone traffic.
RESERVATION. The Relation Court of Évora invoked the legal guarantees of reservation over the private life, to prevent the PJ of accessing Kate’s and Gerry’s SMS messages.
6 comentários
No dia 28 Maio, Anonymous escreveu...
What would happen if the McC, who "have nothing to hide", authorized PJ access to their e-mails' contents ?
No dia 28 Maio, guerra escreveu...
Why do I get the feeling that if it were you or I or anyone else there would be no problem with accessing the contents of the messages? This ruling is absurd it seeks to cripple the police. Is there not another case that has occurred in Portugal in which the contents of messages have been viewed? The McCann's parents said that on that fateful night Kate & Gerry, who according to their parents were not very religious, requested the number of the priest that married them; I would be curious to know what the contents of that conversation were.
I hope Gordon Brown and his government get flushed out of power. They know they are protecting criminals, don’t kid yourself. When this is over don’t be surprised if Mr. Mitchell once again returns to his government position.
No dia 28 Maio, Joana Morais escreveu...
We can never forget why this Laws were made and after what were made- Never forget we lived under a dictatorship for 48 years and PIDE, the Estado Novo Secret Police, had full access to people's mails, conversations and more.
These Laws were made to protect the citizens, their Rights and their Freedoms. However after 34 years (since our liberation day- Carnation Revolution on the 25th of April 1974), the times have changed and the Law regarding personal communications should take in account the speed and the various communications mediums we have available nowadays: SMS, IM, VoIP, MMS, Electronic Mail, Chat, and more.
Having said that, the Law should always protect the citizens rights first - the right to privacy, the right to express freely but there should be some exceptions in criminal cases, when Police has strong evidence for suspicion and the communications done by the suspects/arguidos can help to prove conspiracy to commit illegal acts, or that they did in fact commit a crime.
I couldn't care less about Mitchell's future, for me he is a bumbling buffoon - no credibility at all left.
Gordon B. it up to the British people to judge and vote.
No dia 28 Maio, Anonymous escreveu...
If they were innocent, wouldn't they spontaneously offer access to the SMS ?
If they were guilty but had been careful enough not to leave any possible written clue, wouldn't they also spontaneously offer access to the SMS contents ?
No dia 28 Maio, mandarinn escreveu...
Joana
I understand the privacy protection of course, but in certain cases judges must to hiererquize values. What is more important, the privacy of the parents or the destiny of their little child?
Anyway i remenber in Casa Pia cases it was allowed, i think is right, the investigation of cellular phones and others.
Why is this case diferent????
Very suspicious IMHO
No dia 28 Maio, speak your mind escreveu...
This gets from bad to worse....They are getting away with it by default, I mean its like winning a fight because the opponent has not turned up, it in no way reflects the facts.
I hope the british public are taking note of this especially Gordon the wanker Brown.
And as someone else said the McCanns could easily have volanteered the records.The shameless pair of bastards, the only reason they are not in the media is becauset they finally realised everytime they opened their useless mouths they only served to make themselves look more guilty, and they hope these blogs will die a quiet death without fuel, they clearly did not bargain on this site.
Lets hope we do get to read in tjhe books just who was calling who, as if we couldnt guess.
Here is another one from the Independent Thursday Oct 25th 2007that discusses the change of story.....hmmm surely that is a massive giveaway about these two.
www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/mccann-family-reverse-story-over-breakin-evidence-1203473.html
...However, in the early part of the hunt, friends and family members told journalists that the shutter on the apartment where the McCanns were staying had been broken.
Mr Mitchell made his comments when questioned by a 'Prime Time' team in a report on the disappearance to be screened tomorrow. "There was no evidence of a break-in," said Mr Mitchell.
"I'm not going into the detail, but I can say that Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that somebody got into the apartment and took Madeleine out the window as their means of escape, and to do that they did not necessarily have to tamper with anything. They got out of the window fairly easily."
Of the criticism that the McCanns left their children by themselves on four evenings while they went for dinner, Mr Mitchell said there was a cultural difference between Britain and Portugal.
"It is a British approach to get your children washed, bathed and in bed early in the evening if you can so you can have something of the evening to yourself. That is the British way of doing things. It doesn't mean it's wrong. It doesn't mean it's right," he said.
"Nobody feels more guilty than Gerry and Kate over the decision they took jointly to leave their children in that position that night. And they will never forgive themselves. They've said this often.
"Nobody feels more guilty than they that Madeleine was alone when she was taken. However, they felt they had a perfectly proper system of checking (her in place)."
THEY FELT SO GUILTY AND SO BAD THAT THEY NEVER WENT OUT TO LOOK THAT FIRST NIGHT - instead they stayed in ringing everyone in England and telling them a story they later changed !!!!!!!!!
Thanks Marga
:)
Bath Theory
I recall reading that the police took all the sheets from the beds to be sent to forensics,they could have found DNA from there,relating to other children.They also took wet washing from the machine.
Maybe they thought one baby monitor was enough to cover one apartment.
Bath,
you're welcome.
Have to go again.
xo
Hello All
Only on for a second as my parents came home from holiday and just off to see them...
Wow what a headline and news from Portugal...
If they use their fancy lawyers to prevent going back and get to stay in England the Newspapers here may finaly start to print news and not CM's version of it.
Already I have heard more people talking about the case again today most horified that the "friends" would not go back everyone has said if a child is missing and it may help find her of course they should go back...
They are showing themselves for what they are now selfish neglectful arogant people who thought that if they told us little people what to think we would all dance to their tune.
I have not read everything here today but just looked at the 3As link those photos of Gerry on his way in and out of the PJ say more than words ever could.
Let them go to court and lets get everything in the open although I am glad I am not one of the T7 as I am sure the buck will be passed as much as it can be...
Thanks Viv and all the Portuguise posters for the article and translations I apreciate it...
See you all later xxx
Just to be clear: the fact is that the Portuguese Police assisted by their British colleagues suspect the McCanns of homicide etc, and latest Portuguese media reports suggest that this case is on the verge of criminal charges. However......
I think this case is weird; it is certainly unprecedented. I think great caution should be shown regarding speculation (a media and public favourite past time) about the timing of any further action/announcement by the relevant authorities concerning any aspect of matters relating to the McCanns, and their friends/supporters.
The Portuguese police may wish to prosecute the McCanns, and others, but it is their Public Prosecutor who will decide, and this case has been subject to political interference from the UK ever since this Government decided to send its Head of the Media Monitoring Unit Clarence Mitchell out to Portugal to 'mind' the McCanns, and thereby give them unprecedented, preferential treatment...contrary to the warnings of British Embassy staff in Portugal who have since been removed from their positions or resigned/retired.
As we know, Mitchell is now employed by a rich businessman Labour sympathiser, and leads the PR campaign for the McCanns, and vilifying anyone who questions their version of events, e.g. the police, the public, the Press.
Personally, I think it is better to saunter into criminal court as an observer, seeing justice done, and the accused held to account, rather than rush to libel court by speaking or writing too soon, and stupidly, giving the accused an escape route, however temporary...like the Daily Express did.
Hello everyone
Thank you Viv for this great post.
Thank you, each and everyone of you, for the information and the links.
I tend to believe that a Euro arrest warrant is just a formality.
Of course G & M believe they can "fight" it, otherwise they wouldn't have hired Michael Kaplan QC.
I believe the PJ played them nic ely and they have all fallen to their trap.
Who are the 4 not willing to take part in the reconstruction?
I would think Tanner/O'Brien and the Paynes.
There is much talk about the EU Data Protection, which the Portuguse law is based upon.
If you have the time please read here: Interview with First Data Protection Commissioner in EN & ES
Because I think this is a critical turning point in this ongoing honest inquiry, here follows a reply to two colleagues today (oneleads a major UK child charity; the other is influential in UK media). For legal reasons, I have put 'x' in certain places:-
"I mention this because neglect is a very serious offence which is often the first indicator of more sinister motives, and actions.
xxxxxx child centred charities like yours offer our only hope for the UK to rise above its impoverished status as the unhappiest place in the Western world for children, according to United Nations research published last year.
xxxxxxx the time will come when the media has a decision to make: highlight the McCanns’ ‘error of judgment; mistake’ in leaving their infants unprotected or highlight the children’s rights, and the xxxxxxxx, premeditated, callous behaviour of their parents; their conscious decision to persistently leave infants alone at night while they wined and dined with friends – behaviour that is legally and morally wrong in the UK and most of the world, by our laws and customs.
The police know xxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx; their evidence may be insufficient for court. The child neglect charge may be the only option open to hold xxxxx xxxx xxxxxxxxxx to account for xxxxx xxxx xxxxxxxx xx xxxxxxxxx If that happens, I hope ‘knowing’ adults will come down hard on the perpetrators; focus on the child’s rights, xxx xxx xxxxxx xxxxxx.
Oops.
Viv:
Please delete every word on my 20.10 GMT post after the words '...more sinister motives, and actions.'
The sooner you do this, the better. Many thanks. It's urgent.
Viv, darling
Great, great article. I almost came late at job this morning! I had to read before I drove my car. Plain coffie - no breakfirst. I ate two sandwiches during the morning breefing. I were so hungry ;-))
I`m in love with the PJ and the Portuguise Police. Great job.
I think, you have forgotten theese two pictures.
Kate going in
Kate going out
I know, where she belong.
Leigh
Sorted :)
Leigh3, hun
You have a little bin at the bottom. You are able to delete it by yourself ;-))
Phew!!! Thanks, Viv, Claudia, Dolores...whoever 'legalled' or 'edited' my error ;-)
Here follows the safe, relevant point:
If the police are thwarted in their attempts to test their full case in court, then they can resort to this:-
Portuguese Judicial Code
Article 138
Exposure or abandonment
1 - Whom endangers the life of another person:
a) By exposing her in a place where the person is subject to a situation which she cannot defend herself from on her own; or
b) By abandoning her in a defenseless state, for motive of age, physical defect or illness, when the agent had the duty to guard, watch or assist to the person;
is punished with a prison term of 1 to 5 years.
2 - If the fact is practised by an ascendant or descendant, adoptant or adoptee of the victim, the agent is punished with a prison term of 2 to 5 years.
3 - If the fact results in:
a) Serious offense to the physical integrity, the agent is punished with a prison term of 2 to 8 years;
b) Death, the agent is punished with a prison term of 3 to 10 years.’
I mention this because neglect is a very serious offence which is often the first indicator of more sinister motives, and actions.
Thanks Dolores - I tried to delete it and Internet Explorer crashed, I am going back to using Firefox!!! :-)
Oh, Dolores. Thank you so much xo.
Ecolab: I'm a Luddite; useless with technology. 'Other' people keep me safe in that regard, 24/7 ;-)
Thank you for the reminder. Much appreciated.xo
Viv,
I hope you don't mind I post here sth I read today about abused children by UN soldiers.
The ones who were supposed to defend people and help keep peace.
This is taken from wikipedia:The United Nations (UN) is an international organization whose stated aims are to facilitate cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress and human rights issues.
Tody's article:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/28/america/abuse.php
Oh, ratonthebeam. Thank you so much too. Am sorry to be a nuisance. Now you see why I admire technical skill; I have none!
ROTB /Leigh
You are welcome
XXD
Mariana -
Thanks for the link to the Data Protection Commissioner. I'll take a look at that now.
I agree about O'Brien and Tanner being two of those who refused to go for the reconstruction, but I thought it more likely to be the Oldfields too, because the Paynes used a baby monitor and didn't do any checking that night, so were least likely to be involved. Just a thought! We shall see what we shall see at the end of the day!!!
The first UK paper to print the news. The Times
The parents of Madeleine McCann are being investigated for possibly neglecting their daughter on the night she disappeared from their Portuguese holiday apartment, it was revealed today.
The first published court ruling on the Madeleine case confirms that the police inquiry covers homicide, abandonment, concealment of a corpse and abduction.
The reference to “abandonment” suggests that Portuguese detectives are investigating if there is evidence that Kate and Gerry McCann were negligent in leaving their daughter alone on the night she was reported missing. The charge carries a maximum 10-year jail sentence.
Madeleine McCann: the key questions
Why are the "Tapas 9" key to solving the Madeleine mystery?
Related Internet Links
The latest full coverage of Madeleine McCann
Background
McCanns consider interview bids
Madeleine McCann: the global reaction
The forgotten victim in the McCann case
Multimedia
Pictures: searching for Madeleine
Video: McCann family start holiday
Related Links
Edited transcript of the judgment
McCanns urged to return to Praia da Luz
‘Pray like mad,’ beg tearful McCanns
Mr and Mrs McCann, both doctors from Rothley, Leicestershire, have strenuously denied negligence and said they were just 50 yards away at the time their daughter was taken.
The court ruling also reveals that the public prosecutor wants access to the content of text, audio and video messages from 10 mobile telephones believed to belong to Kate and Gerry McCann and seven of their British friends.
Investigators are particularly interested in the content of 18 text messages allegedly sent from an unidentified mobile number to Mr McCann between May 2 and 4 last year. They also want details of all calls made between members of the group between 8pm on May 3 and midday of the following day.
Madeleine was reported missing at 10pm on May 3 from her bedroom at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz. Her parents and their friends had been dining at a Tapas restaurant while Madeleine and her twin 18-month-old siblings were asleep.
The investigation has been covered by Portugal’s strict laws on judicial secrecy which meant that even Mr and Mrs McCann, who were made official suspects last September, have been unable to access details of the inquiry or any evidence against them.
However, details of the investigation have emerged in a court judgment, seen by The Times, after prosecutor Magalhães e Meneses was refused access to the content of the group’s telephone messages.
He had requested a “complete listings of all telephone traffic to calls made to and from” numbers between April 28, when the group arrived in Portugal, and September 9, when the McCanns left the country. He also sought details of the locations of the mobile telephones which would allow detectives to recreat the movement of the group.
The request for access to the messages was rejected by instructional judge Pedro Frias at the court in Portimão. He said it would breach the right to privacy and that Portuguese law did not allow for the retrospective interception of telephone calls.
The Évora Supreme Court of Justice has now rejected the prosecutor’s appeal and published its reasons, giving the first glimpse into the investigation.
Judge Fernando Ribeiro Cardoso rejected the application, saying: “The details of the content of the messages can only be objected to interception in real time, with due judicial authorization.”
Portuguese police had hoped to stage a reconstruction of the events surrounding Madeleine’s disappearance tomorrow. However, they have been forced to abandon the re-enactment after some of the McCanns friends said they could not see the value in returning to Portugal to take part.
Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, said: “We are pleased to see that the investigation covers abduction. Kate and Gerry have had legal advice in both Portugal and Britain which say that everything they did was within the boundaries of reasonable behaviour.”
He said that Mr McCann had no knowledge of the texts referred to on May 3 and 4 and had received only a few calls on his mobile in the six days the family had been in Portugal prior to Madeleine disappearance.
Hi Leigh and all
I have only just walked back in so forgive I have not read you all but see you had a problem over what you posted, but that now seems to be sorted.
The range of charges the prosecutor is talking about clearly cover all options as I said in my post at the top, if they are innocent of murder and wish to fight it, the prosecutor clearly has an alternative charge ..exposure to risk of serious harm /abandonment. I have said previously, if they are convicted on this they will still go down for a very long time. There is also the issue of them concealing the corpse!
Sorry my eldest son just arrived will try and come back later
Viv x
Dolores,
Great newspaper, The Times, don't you think? ;-)
They've been the very model of journalistic integrity in this case, I think.
They'll be observing the court proceedings, not featuring in them.
Libel court. Criminal court.
As Rhett Butler said in 'Gone With the Wind' (now playing in London's West End, as a musical, and playing out in the provinces via the McCann Machine of blow hards): ' Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.'
Criminal court. Libel court. Slowly, slowly...
Hi Dolores,
Thanks for the Times report. I agree with Leigh - it's a well respected and easily readable daily. The fact that it's owned by Rupert Murdoch doesn't endear me to it, but I still read it every day because the editor and reporters do a good job.
Re the prosecutor not been allowed access to the mobile phone records - I find that inconceivable considering a child's life is involved, but I suppose they have to adhere to the strict letter of the law as it stands!
The law is sometimes an ass, as is shown in many cases in the UK where the criminal's rights are often deemed to be more important than the victims - hence the increase in crime since these silly new laws were brought in.
I notice that Gerry denies making more than a few calls - but then he would wouldn't he!!
I'm off for the night - see you all tomorrow.
Justice for Madeleine must be our target and we won't rest until that is achieved!!!
Nx
Ecolab,
Yup. What a difference a few hours can make.
Kate going in, optimistic, smiling for the attention of cameras.
Kate going out, withdrawn, focused on her personal turmoil.
A picture paints a thousand words, as the old Chinese saying puts it.
This story can be told in pictures, and captions, I think.
When the time is right. Not yet. We await the next official statement from the police...
No rush. Why rush to libel court? No need for that. Court has plenty of time to await the statements by all concerned.
Night night, Nancy.
The Times and The Sun are owned by Murdoch; just two of his media outlets.
I notice that a 'Sun' columnist has recently been allowed to air suspicions about the McCanns.
Murdoch knows his 'market'; his medias' need to make money; reflect or challenge public opinion.
It was a silly day when amateurs thought they could outwit that, I think.
'Sister' newspapers offset each other, cleverly.
Good evening Viv and all
I'm very surprised about the prosecutor or pj don't allowed tochek mccans phones. Actually "privacy" is an important value in a free society but it is not an ABSULUE value.I dare to say the only absolute value is the right if LIFE. In this case the life of madeleine is more important than her parents privacy.
Recentely in case Casa Pia it was allowed to chek the celular phones of a defendent.
Why is this case diferent?
Evening all,
So,The Times is covering yesterday’s 24 Horas news (old news for us), they say they saw the document, and so do we all. We saw it here in first hand yesterday!
As I said before, 24 Horas is a tabloid but that doesn’t mean their reports are not accurate!
If they were proved correct on this one, on what else can they be correct?
My bet is that, they are correct when they said the McCanns will be charged with Gross neglect - 3 b) Death, the agent is punished with a prison term of 3 to 10 years.
About those messages, I can only say that, if they were innocent they would themselves give the PJ´s permission to see its contents without the necessity of court permission just like they have done naming witnesses to be heard to prove that they were completely innocents! Pure and simple!
Congratulation The Times,for reporting the truth!
Would you like to report this one too?
21/04/08
"McCanns Risk Ten Years in Jail
Public Ministry prepares an accusation for Exposition/Abandonment and Negligence against Maddie's parents
...there are strong evidences that she died in the apartment...
"The Public Ministry has collected enough evidence to accuse the McCanns even if there is or not a re-enactment of the facts that occurred in the day the girl went missing". The guarantee was given to 24Horas by a judiciary officer who has been following the investigation. The same source added that the indictment might only take place in July and that the McCanns can incur in a penalty "that can go up to 10 years in jail". Another source connected to the case concluded: "We know that the girl disappeared and there are strong evidences that she died in the apartment, apparently in an accidental way. There are also strong probabilities that her corpse was hidden. Nonetheless, independently from that, there is clear proof under the Portuguese Legislation that the parents of the child left her exposed to an eventual kidnapping, like they did with her twin siblings. That is a crime of Negligence and Exposition/Abandonment over people they had the duty to protect.
Ongoing Investigations
Contacted by the 24Horas, Guilhermino Encarnação, the assistant director of the Judiciary Police and the very person in charge of the Directorship of Faro, merely said: "the investigations continue and when there is something relevant to reveal" about the mediatic case "that will be done through the official channels".
A source from Portimão's Court assured to 24Horas that the Public Prosecutor Magalhães e Menezes, the responsible for the administration of the inquest, is already working in the accusations against the McCanns and that will be made public "very soon". That is, the probability for the McCanns to stop being arguidos in the following months is almost null. 24Horas also knows that Robert Murat and his companion [Michaela Walczuch] have strong possibilities of not being implicated in the accusation."
Source:24Horas
Hello, everybody!
Mandarinn, you're right. In the Casa Pia case the judge allowed access to the phone records. And we are talking about a famous person here in Portugal. The difference, Mandarinn, is that famous or not, that person is Portuguese. And probably doesn't speak with the PM on the phone.
Cláudia,
Exactly!:)
Mandarinn and Ana,
Perhaps, it may be that the Portuguese Judge thinks beyond the tiresome, petty McCanns, and protects your rights.
If I understand this correctly, it was the application to access SMS prior to Maddie's disappearance, prior to any crime, that led to his dismissal of the application.
Such is the law. If the police can scan any information prior to a crime, then the law allows them to scan any information even if a crime has not occurred. Now that is a scary prospect.
We have seen political interference in giving weird preferential protection to the McCanns, self confessed child neglectors, apart from any other issue.
What if politicians, protecting friends, aided by legal precedent, could scan anyone's SMS, looking for wrongdoing...and finding it because they 'see what they want to see'; find wrongdoing when it suits their cause.
Just a thought.
By the way, I doubt whether the PJ case rests solely on the SMS, although that would be useful.
xo
leigh
Ana, sad but true.
I agree that privacy is a very important thing and that it is a fundamental right. But under no circunstance at all can it be more important than finding out what happened to a missing little girl. NEVER.
If charges are laid against the McCanns and any accomplices then one thing for certain is that
1) the abduction theory will be destroyed.
2) the fund will be deemed as fraudulent.
3) the whole world will see what the Tapas 10 have done.
4) the only conclusion the world will draw even without a body and no charges of murder or manslaughter is they did it.
5) the press may investigate once and IF charges are laid as it will be a free for all.
Honest Joe,
So true; every word you write.
Time. This just takes time.
Meanwhile, one addition to your list:-
The McCann defence that their behaviour was 'within the bounds of responsible parents' undermines decades of hard work done by child protection agencies, charities, and honest folk funding them, and living their values (put aside adult pleasure, and 'mind' children properly).
There will be a lot of repair work to be done because of all the damage the McCanns,their friends, and supporters have inflicted on a long campaign to make parents aware that they have responsibilities towards their children.
Never neglect.That's the simple message.
The McCanns and their friends did; their supporters excuse that.
Their damaging claims - an insult to responsible adults - will be contested...when the time is right.
Thanks Joe, for remembering what is right.
Leigh3,
You are welcome.
Once the abduction theory is destroyed they have nothing even if the PJ proved that alone. Without an abductor then it has to be one or more of the Tapas.
Dear Leigh,
The judge is concern in protecting the privacy of the arguidos that was one of the reasons he didn’t allow the messages to be known.
Another reason is because the PJ only can hear phone calls in real time but that was not the case on Casa Pia and that is something I can not understand! Why not on this case?
Double standards! Bad day for justice!
You may be correct on your thoughts concerning the politicians and definitely correct concerning the sms, the PJ has much more proves. The sms are important, but not crucial to the prosecution!I think! :)
Ta Joe:
You wrote: "...Once the abduction theory is destroyed they have nothing...".
They have nothing, Joe. That's not just my opinion.
There is no evidence of an abduction. There is evidence of gross neglect. There is evidence of a sophisticated legal fight to keep them out of court. There is evidence that they will be in court if they continue to refuse to co-operate with honest inquiry.
Libel court. Criminal court. They will be in court.
Until today, they had time to change their ways. Game over.
Now they will be in court, one way or another, however long it takes.
Due to their own words and actions. No one likes liars.
Cláudia,
Indeed, no one or nothing is as important as a child who is no longer with us and she deserves much more than this!
Sometimes the judges must have good sense on the law interpretation !They can do that when they want,of course!
Ana,
Perhaps the Judge must think according to international law.
This is the 21st Century. No nation in the EU can adjudicate according to its own laws only. It is what it is. I think the Judge did what he had to do, by law; by EU law.
He may care more for bigger issues than the tiresome case of petty provincial nobodies from the UK.
What they do have though is support from people who don't give a flying fig about right or wrong or dead 3yr olds (IMO). What motivates these status obsessed influential movers and shakers is power and reputation and many fawned all over the McCann's at the start and thus they would perceive this as a stain on them. Pathetic when a 3 yr old dies but that is the weird corrupt tainted world we have created. So yes they will have their backers - we have all seen how powerful some are - but the tide has turned and I think both will end up in the dark place they are scared off. Quite appropriate as they left madeleine in a dark strange room night after night and could not even handle her questions the next morning as to why. Throw the key away.
I have absolutely no understaing regarding his decision. Especially because in other cases other judges have allowed phone records to be accessed. And the children were not missing, presumed dead.
IN TERMS OF THE JUDGE re text debacle we can all pretend it is a legal point but we all know it is not.
He has either been paid or lent on. I believe the former weighs more heavily on his/her shoulders.
If he is friendly he will let someone look over his shoulder or leave the messages on his table and let them have 5 minutes to view etc. There are ways of keeping all parties happy !
Bath Theory,
On the DE, you advised me to be calm, and 'channel' my energies.
It's good advice. No surrender, bath theory, however long this takes.
Failing that Leicestershire police need to contact GCHQ in Cheltenham or secretly raid Vodafone's offices - simple as that.
Leigh fancy a game of tennis or a run on the beach !!!!!!
BT,
There is a legally correct way to acquire relevant data; and there are other ways.
Whatever ;-) The deed is done. Perhaps, sometimes, investigators just need to know they are on the right track, then they will find the legally pristine way to achieve their goal: truth and justice for the victim/s.
You are right dear Leigh, the law is the law but the judge can do his own interpretation of it, just like they did on the Casa Pia case!
Why not here?
The judges are humans they are not machines that is why we have them in the courts , otherwise we would have robots!
Don´t you think?:)
BT,
GCHQ ;-))) !!!!
Job done.
I know 2 Judges and believe me although I am not a lawyer I know what goes on in some cases behind doors. There is still hope that the PJ will somehow find out the words in them (if they haven't already)
Indeed the more I think about it this could be a clever way of trying to appear balanced by the Portugese , very clever. Knowing the right people have already been fed the info.
:)
Dear Ana,
I think the Judge would rather be wise than clever in this particular case.
Just my opinion.
I think he sees 'the big picture', and serves his people: the Portuguese.
Just my opinion.
x
Ana
He is not serving his people with this judgement unless he knows he has fed the info already.
How can any police force know to request the text records of someone before a crime has been committed?
It is laughable and as such it is either a smart judgement to aid the prosecution of the McCann's or a bent judge (IMO)
Simple as that in my book
Hi BT,
I am almost sure the PJ has all the information they need already, only that, they can not use it in a court of law, they need the judge permission!
If they use it, the defence will ask the judgment to be cancel!IMHO :)
Agreed
BT,
...unless he knows the information IS known, and serves the Portuguese by dismissing the application because it would set a poor precedent.
Job done. The Judge was pragmatic, I think.
If they have the info and it isn't authorised by a judge it's the same as not having it. They can't use it. That is why I would like to have a chat with that judge.
Now more are aware of the McCann's dodgeyness do you reckon we have any videos of them running on the beach so we can check out the lip reading in order to work out their conversations.
Leigh,
You are probably correct, after all, this is the world hightest profile case concerning a child!
All the world has their eyes on us!
Cláudia,
Moita Flores said today that, maybe we will know all those phones calls on Gonçalo´s book!:)
Ana, I know. And that will be great. But it would be greater if we knew it in a court of law.
The point about seeing things over a Judges shoulder or seeing it on their desk when they have deliberately gone to toilet for 5 mins is it enables them to direct the case knowing more. It happens and it also happens with some Priests. There are such ways open in life that allow the greater moral and ethical side to prevail.
So although they cannot use it in court IF they know what is in them it helps them in court.
Information is power and it would certainly aid. That is my reasoning.
Cláudia,
You are so right!
Do you know if they can appeal to another court? That would be interesting… Pinto Moreira, head of prosecutors said yesterday that, it was a shame the judge not allowed the PJ´s request!
Falling off my perch now, although I suspect Nanday is wide awake ;-)
May I just say this: justice is served in silence; the quiet moments reveal most, I think.
Can you hear the roar of silence tonight in the UK, awaiting an official statement from the PJ? No rush. We can wait.
Our relations with our oldest ally, Portugal, matter more than our temporary concern with the petty McCanns, their friends, and supporters.
As for our concern with children in the UK, I think the McCanns and their supporters have performed a public service: their example has exposed how child neglect exists among every dysfunctional group of adults, regardless of education, money or social/political protection...and how urgent it is to defeat them all, for the sake of defenceless children.
I'll be quitely getting on with the job of exposing their lies, and insisting that this must be the last time that gullible adults acquiesce to sophisticated adult lies in defence of culpable adults.
Boa noite, Portugal. Night night, UK. Goedonavond, our Viking friends.
All's well that ends well.
xo
leigh
Quietly, not quitely! Sheesh. Am tired ;-)
Fantastic news Rat.
let us hope it is what we think it may be.
:)
Goodnight Leigh.
Nite dear leigh, boa noite e dorme bem.:)
Beijinhosxxx
Hiya all, it is disappointing about the Judge's refusal to allow retrospective permission to have access to phone records. Liberty provide a very good explanation of Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights - the right to privacy and it is a qualified right. ~Clearly under the Convention, such permission would be granted in relation to the investigation of very serious criminal offences. But the Portuguese Judge is not saying he is applying Convention law, he is applying domestic law, which sadly very clearly states that phones can only be tapped simultaneously as the call is taking place and with prior authorisation from a judge, so under Portuguese law, this retrospective application is just not going anywhere. It is very worrying indeed that the Prosecutor wants details of the calls going back to the START of the holiday on, I think, 27 April onwards, and particularly the day before. This clearly implies they are investigating the issue of premeditation..murder. It does seem extraordinary that Portuguese law would not allow this in the circumstances, but I have read it is very favourable to defendants. Let us hope it is not so favourable it would prevent the prosecutor from proceeding with the most serious charge. Of course we must bear in mind these judges, including an appeal judge, have weighed all the evidence and it may well be they take the view there is plenty of other evidence, but obviously the prosecutor is hedging his bets by also wishing to proceed on gross negligence charges. This will assure the McCanns are convicted but possibly not for the more serious offence of murder. Sometimes in legal cases one has to be pragmatic and accept that a win is a win, even if you did not win quite as well as you wished, you still won! Personally though, I would not rule out the likelihood of the prosecutor going ahead anyway. Leonora was convicted, I believe, without any mobile phone evidence of the most serious offence, murder, and also without a body, so looking at in the round, it is still very possible. We really do not know what evidence there is in detail, but what we do know is there is a clear prima facie case for them to face of killing Madeleine, and it clearly seems to be the case, this could well have been planned. I think so particularly because of the speed with which they patented Madeleine's image and set up a limited company making the McCanns themselves beneficiaries of the fund. Given they know Madeleine died and they disposed of her body, this is very powerful evidence of "intent" and very damning against them.
Viv x
Article 8: Right to Respect for Private and Family Life
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
Article 8 guarantees respect for four things: a person’s private life, family life, home and correspondence.
Private life
Lots of issues have been held to come within the scope of a person’s private life and the ECHR has stressed that it is not possible to limit or define what comes within its scope. Things which do clearly come within the scope of a person’s private life are:
Bodily integrity – Article 8 will come into play if someone is forced to have medical treatment or if he or she is forcibly restrained.
Personal autonomy – this means the right to make decisions about how you lead your life. People have tried to argue that the right to smoke cannabis is an issue of personal autonomy and should therefore be protected by Article 8 but the courts have not been prepared to accept this.
Sexuality – there have been a number of cases in which the ECHR has made it clear that laws which prohibit gay men having sex breach Article 8.
Personal identity – the ECHR decided in 2002 that British law’s failure to fully recognise the new gender of transgendered people breached Article 8.
Personal information – the holding, use or disclosure of personal information about someone is covered by Article 8. The article may also give someone the right to access personal information held about them.
Surveillance
Family life
This means your relationship with your close family. This includes a man and woman who are not married but who live in a stable relationship. The ECHR has not yet recognised same-sex couples as families, but this may well change and, even if it does not, it may be that the courts in this country will do so.
Home
Your home is where you currently live. The right to respect for your home does not mean that you have the right to be given a home if you do not have one, or to be given a better one than you already have.
Environmental issues (noise or other pollution) may come within the scope of Article 8, because they affect both a person’s private life and home.
Correspondence
This includes your phone calls and letters, as well as e-mails. People have successfully used Article 8 to challenge the police or secret services bugging their phones.
A qualified right
Article 8 is qualified right. This means that an interference with the right can be justified. Where the interference is justified, there will be no breach of the article. The circumstances where an interference with the right can be justified are set out in the second part of the article (Article 8(2)).
For an interference to be justified it must:
Be ‘in accordance with the law’ - this means that there has to be clear legal basis for the interference and that the law should be readily accessible.
Pursue a legitimate aim - there are six legitimate aims set out in Article 8(2), e.g. ‘the prevention of disorder or crime’. A public authority which intends to interfere with a person’s rights under Article 8 must be able to show that what they are doing pursues one of these six legitimate aims. This is rarely a problem, as the legitimate aims are so wide.
Be ‘necessary in a democratic society’ - This is usually the crucial issue. There must be a good reason for the interference with the right and the interference must be proportionate. This means that it should be no more than is necessary.
Positive obligations
Article 8 and the other qualified articles are largely concerned with preventing the Government, the police or other state bodies interfering with people’s rights. They are negative obligations in that they impose a duty not to do something. However, there may be circumstances where the Government is under a positive obligation, a duty to do something in order to protect or promote people’s rights. It will always be much harder to argue that the Government is under a positive obligation than under a negative one.
Relevant sections:
Right to privacy
Rights of suspects
Rights of prisoners
Rights of immigrants
The rights of children and young people
The rights of workers
Maybe Gerry is packing his new blue tennis holdall with the last of the money. His friends are good at 'cleaning' things so they can assist on this. (IMO)
ROTB,
Fraud is a grave crime in the UK. Fraudsters persist...until they are certain the 'game's up'. Con merchants are brazen, by definition (as LGC tried to tell us). They are what they are.
Just a thought.
Ta ra. See you next time.Zzzzzzzzzzz now.
xo
leigh
Viv,
In such a case I still believe either the Judge was bent or he has gone to the loo and left his file on the table knowing who was in the room.
Ana, I have no idea if they can appeal. But I would love that.
RAT
No messages for 24 hrs A FAMILY CONFERENCE perhaps is taking place ?
Question is given what we discussed a few days ago several members of those families must now be expressing their doubt over G&K and not all would agree to cover them instead of representing Madeleine. An internal split me thinks.
After this forbidden information by the judge, I think that no one can accuse the Portuguese/laws/human rights etc., of not protect citizens, Portuguese or not, after all, they are protecting suspects in a serious crime, imo! The law is the law, no doubts about that!
That is why Ana, it is a very clever move and hence why I have made my point.
Hiya BT
I do not think the Judge is bent at all. Judges are absolute sticklers for rigidly applying the law and there would be concern that in a case such as this with international interest he would not wish to make any decision against the McCanns that could be interpreted as unlawful under Portuguese law. I have to stress it would not be unlawful in UK law but we incorporated the European Convention into our domestic law, I am not sure the Portuguese have.
The only judge I have ever really studied who systematically re-wrote or re-interpreted the law was Lord Denning and he had some very fierce critics because it was said his decisions created uncertainty in the law. In theory people should be able to get legal advice and be told what the law is, with Lord Denning one could never be quite sure! Personally though, I loved him, he always did what was equitable and right and I know he would have been on the side of little Madeleine.
This may be a blow to the prosecutor but I do feel there will be plenty of other evidence.
Viv x
Well must be going , I have my other activity to look at before bedtime. I like looking at shares and seeing which companies may rise out of the ashes to greater glory.
Goodnight all and thanks again to Viv who had the sense to turn this into a closed group where the likes of Rosiepops aka Philomena cannot reach.
To quote a well known song...Who knows what tomorrow brings , in a world full of suprise...
Hi again BT, if you come up with any good investment advice, let me know, it is not something I am so hot on, but will be needing it!
I see that RP and Co simply do not understand even the simple facts contained in posts that I make and so their personality aside, there would be no point in having them on here!
I am convinced there are many more surprises to come, we just do not know the half of it, but must bear in mind, the prosecutor is obviously quite convinced the McCanns murdered Madeleine, it is just as bad as we thought.
Nite Nite my friend!
Viv x
Here we have something that is known as “the supreme interest of children welfare”,or smt like that, and this can lead us to numerous interpretation of the law, always searching for the children welfare...
Goodnight BT.:)
I'm off too, the excitement has been too much for me today and now I need my sleep! Maybe see you all tomorrow.
Rat xxx
Goodnight, ROB
It has been a fantastic day for justice. There is no need to demand the highest sanction against the McCanns or the longest prison sentence, they just need to be brought to justice, and that is precisely what is going to happen.
JUSTICE FOR MADDIE
Luv Viv x
Hiya Ana
By the Prosecutor also wanting to proceed against he McCanns for their serious neglect this certainly is about child welfare. It is just no use him saying they were acting within the bounds of responsible parents, they acted like parents who just have no love or concern for their children, only themselves. They must be taught a very hard lesson, and so must others who might have considered that Gerry McCann speaks the truth. That is very much about Portugal protecting the international rights of children.
Luv Viv x
Viv Nancy
The Data Protection Act has been in place mainly to protect white collar criminals.
Don't ever beleive that EU cares about little people. Do you know how many of EU officials have been convicted and their names are not published due to the privacy protection Act?
Generally speaking a judge does not allow people to access data prior to a threatening phone call even if their life has been threatened. It is a disgusting system which protects wrong doers.
Exactly dear Viv and that is why I believe they will be charged with gross neglect at very least!
This is not the first time British parents had abandoned children in Portugal!
See this!
And this!
Goodnight Viv, Mariana and all!:)
Ana
Thanks for the BBC link.
Do have a good rest.
Hi Ana
Thanks for the link, another sad story of a baby the parents did not want, he had a cleft palate, so they just dumped him in Portugal aged three months and went back to Britain, mum then claimed she had no money and was suffering from post natal depression. Finally aged 21 months he has successful surgery to his lip and is handed over to loving adoptive Portuguese parents. In a way just like Madeleine, the child was not deemed good enough to be loved and cared for but Portuguese people do not see it that way.
A happy ending to a sad story of wicked abandonment.
Beijinhos!
Viv x
Viv
I saw this on the
BBC news 24 online its worth a look.
You have mail darling.
I have just developed a blinding headache and off to bed.
Nite nite D
Killers who cry crocodile tears
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7288543.stm
Hiya Mariana
I do not really understand your post below.
The Data Protection Act is UK legislation designed to prevent employers, health services, business etc from disclosing private details about people, but if the information is required in connection with a police investigation or in connection with court proceedings then it will be disclosed.
The Act would not apply at European level.
Offenders who make abusive telephone calls to individuals in the UK can be traced and frequently are. If the calls amount to harassment this is a criminal offence and I know from my experience as a probation officer people are frequently prosecuted for this, in fact any course of conduct that amounts to harassment including internet stalking, following someone, watching their house etc. any repeated attention that the victim has made plain is unwanted and is causing offence and distress. It can be a difficult process for the victim, careful records have to be kept to prove that course of conduct, and this is what victims are always advised to do to provide evidence for a successful prosecution.
Viv x
Hi Viv
Sorry I did not make it clear. The UK has managed a lot better the Data Protection.
Even at European level the Act has exceptions but these have not implemented in the rest of the EU.
I think in criminal matters the police ought to have the power to investigate everything which is done in the UK. It is not the same in the rest of Europe.
see here, the law in Greece did not allow the publication of names regarding criminals. They have only changed it the last few days and only for child abusers. Article of Greek Newspaper in English. People cannot name even convicted criminals until the end of the process which may take about 10 years when the case finishes in the Supreme Court.
The list of shame ( Aka/liars):
Jane Tanner
Russel O'Brien
Rachel Odfield
Matthew Oldfield
24 Horas 29/05/2008
Afraid of being constituted arguidos
The other two couples that left the children in the Ocean Club were afraid by the fact that the Portuguese law previews a penalty till 10 years in jail to those that abandon minors
Text Carlos Tomás
Two couples refused to return to Portugal to cooperate with the PJ in the reenactment of the 3rd of May of 2007. Amongst the motives to refuse, the 24 Horas discovered that it was the fact that Jane Tanner, Russel O'Brien, Rachel and Matthew Oldfield were afraid of being constituted arguidos.
From the group of nine people that dinned in the Tapas Bar in the night of the disappearance, apart from Maddie's parents these were the couples that had children. And also them left the children alone in the apartments of the Ocean Club - according to the article 138º of the Penal Code, that constitutes a crime that can be punishable with ten years in jail.
"They made several demands, from a special airplane to a five star hotel. The last that they demanded was not to be constituted arguidos, whilst the McCanns demanded exactly the contrary. According to our law that is impossible to guarantee", explained to the 24 Horas a judicial responsible connected to the process.
According to testimonies collected by the PJ in the Tapas Bar, only Russel O'Brien and Gerry McCann left the restaurant between 19,00 and 22,00 hours the period that the authorities believe the child went missing.
"The refusal of the friends to return to Portugal is unbelievable. Only three said they would come", David Payne, Dianne Webster and Fiona, said the same source.
To note that the depositions of Fiona Payne and her husband are considered fundamental to elaborate the accusation that is almost concluded.
Facts
Calm
Diane Webster, 63 years old, was the most calm person of the group. After Kate entered the Bar screaming "they've taken her", she was calm and serene.
Reservation
The reservation of the apartments of the Ocean Club - made through the Internet - was done by David Payne one of the witnesses that was available to return to Portugal.
Three consistent versions
The investigators of the PJ that are conducting Maddie's case, coordinated by Paulo Rebelo and Guilhermino Encarnação, already analysed the principal depositions collected in Leicester, England. The ones that have consistency, are the ones of David and Fiona Payne and Diane Webster, the 24 Horas discovered. All the other depositions present several contradictions or did not advance anything important to the case. However the depositions of more than 50 persons that spent holidays in the Ocean Club in that date and live in England, are still being analysed.
According to the depositions of these three friends of the McCanns from 18,00 hours onwards none of them saw Maddie, although she was extremely active and liked to be with the group. The only person that says that went to see the child after 21,00 hours is her father Gerry that confessed that he was talking for several minutes with a friend near the door of the flat and after that only his wife Kate that gave the alarm of the disappearance after 22,30 hours. The authorities were only called near 11:45pm.
Hello Ana
Thank you for the post.
Rachael Oldfield BBC Radio 4 interview.
"We were asked to comply with the Portuguese judicial secrecy laws, which we were made to understand that we could face two years in prison for speaking out.
So, as a group, we have not said anything from day one. There have been all these rumours flying around and leaks from sources close to the PJ, which we haven't been able to refute".
It is quite ulikely that Mrs. Oldfield wanted to refute the "rumors". What a shame. She is just as guilty as the two protagonists.
Kalimera/Good morning everyone!
I'm happy to see Sky news reporting this today:
McCanns 'Could Face Neglect Charges'
Updated:06:27, Thursday May 29, 2008
The parents of Madeleine McCann could face charges of neglecting their daughter on the night she disappeared, it has emerged.
Kate and Gerry McCannCourt documents published on The Times' website reveal the areas Portuguese investigators are considering include "abandonment".
The police inquiry also covers possible abduction, homicide and concealment of a corpse, the documents say.
The documents are the first official confirmation that the inquiry includes a possible allegation of neglect against Kate and Gerry McCann.
Clarence Mitchell, the couple's spokesman, emphasised the court papers did not mean such a charge would materialise.
He said the couple vigorously denied neglecting Madeleine and welcomed the fact that abduction was also being considered by detectives.
He said: "This court document outlines the areas of the investigation and in no way suggests Kate and Gerry will be facing any such charges.
"Equally we have heard nothing officially to suggest any such area of investigation is being considered.
"However, we do note that abduction is apparently one of the parameters and we welcome that because that is what Kate and Gerry and their friends have said and that is what happened.
"If there is any suggestion of neglect charges being considered that will be vigorously denied because the legal advice that Kate and Gerry have received both in Portugal and Britain is that legally speaking everything they were doing that week was well within the bounds of responsible parenting."
A neglect charge carries a maximum penalty of 10 years. But it is understood for such a charge to stand up the prosecutors would have to show the McCanns intended to neglect Madeleine.
The youngster disappeared from the couple's holiday apartment in Praia de Luz on May 3 last year while they dined with friends a short distance away.
Madeleine went missing last yearMembers of their group would return to the apartment at regular intervals to check on Madeleine and her twin siblings.
The court documents also reveal the public prosecutor sought access to text and phone messages from 10 mobile telephones thought to belong to the McCanns and seven of their friends.
Investigators also wanted to see the content of 18 text messages allegedly sent to Mr McCann from an unidentified number, 14 on May 2 and four more on May 4.
The documents are part of the appeal made by prosecutor Magalhaes e Meneses after a court refused him access to the content of the group's telephone messages, The Times reported.
Mr Meneses also asked for a full list of all the calls made between members of the McCanns' holidaying group from when they arrived in Portugal on April 28 and when the McCann's left on September 9.
Mr Mitchell told the paper Mr McCann had no knowledge of the texts referred to and received a handful of calls on his mobile in the days before his daughter disappeared.
---
I'm aware of me reading this with my "see through glasses", but I hope indeed that everyone supporting the McCanns realise that this is no way "responsible parenting"!!!!
...and YES, they intended to neglect Madeleine!
Viv, I think I need that sick bucket again... Really don't feel well reading well educated people stating something that might put other children in danger...
Niki
Viv,
29.05.2008
Investigators wanted to confuse the 10th Latin American and Caribbean "Tapas"
"The refusal of access to the content of messages received by Gerry McCann before and after the disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, or the refusal of nine Tapas return to Portugal, will not prevent the inspectors to make progress in their investigation," said an official of the Judicial Police yesterday after the disclosure of the Tribunal's decision on the Relation of Evora.
According to the same source, with access to the content of messages received by Gerry McCann, "the investigators wanted to confuse a character still in the dark but that the police knew to be linked to the case."
Some inspectors even speak of 10 th Tapas.
The existence of a tenth character, known Gerry and Kate McCann, is a fact also supported the United Kingdom where a member of the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has confirmed that "officers were sent to Portugal same suggested a few possibilities among the British who live permanently in the Algarve region. "
Dolores - good morning!
Leigh has always maintained there is a 10th tapa, but who exactly that is remains a mystery. I thought it might be the brother or cousin of Gerry who went back to the UK in a huff! We shall see!
According to the Times today, the first published Court ruling on the Madeleine case confirms that the police inquiry covers possible neglect, as well as possible homicide, abandonment, concealment of a corpse and abduction.
CM says the McCanns are heartened that abduction is included because it confirms their view of what happened to Madeleine.
It could be though that the PJ's are not referring to an abduction by an unknown but by someone within the tapas 9 or 10 as it seems to be now.
That would also indicate why the PJ's want to see the mobile phone messages from the 28th April 2007 up to the 9th September 2007.
Just a thought!
What I don't understand is why one of the charges is called 'possible neglect' - how can that be when these parents deliberately left their children, not one night only 50 yards away (their words not mine) but other nights much further away. To me that is clear neglect!!
Of course the McCanns still continue with their story of being responsible parents. I would dread to think how irresponsible parents would behave in that case!
I see it was, as I thought, O'Brien, Tanner and the Oldfields who refused to go back. Obviously they having left their children alone too had more to lose than the Paynes!
Nx
Good morning all
Dolores
Since a long time ago i got the feeling that all the proctetion given to mccans is not exactly to them but to protect someone else.
The question i put to myself is : what a hight profile person was doing in Algarve (a placenormal to be because it a place british citizens use to choose for vacations)that need to hide himself is more important than the investigation of a criminal case envolving a little child???
A good thing it wasn't for sure....
Sometimes i think that behind this case it can be some gloomy thing , maybe not directly related to the chil vanishment
Hi everyone
Mandarinn
The British Embassy officials had warned the government about the McCann behaviour. Suppose the 10th person is a blood relation or close friend of a political VIP, they wouldn't want the public to know that this person was eating and drinking with the McCann's while they practiced their "responsible parenting".
Well nothing stays a secret forever. Sooner or later we will know.
Yesterday, a Court of the Rrelation of Evora came to support the decision of the magistrate criminal Portimão, Pedro Frias, had banned the access of investigators from the Police Judiciaire the content of written messages (SMS) received by Gerry McCann. According to the document, the father of Madeleine McCann has received 14 written messages on May 2, the day before the disappearance of her daughter, from a phone number officially unidentified.The same laptop is at the root of 4 other messages that Gerry McCann received after the disappearance.
Gerry and Kate McCann have always refused to disclose to investigators the content of messages, that has not prevented the police to obtain this information.
It is the use of the contents of this information, especially in a trial, which is questioned by the decision of the magistrate criminal.
According to the same document, the first stop of Justice publicly disclosed so far, investigations of the Judicial Police, following the disappearance of Madeleine, doing well on the possibility of crimes of abandonment, endangerment, murder and concealment of a corpse.
As a reminder, the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and Leicestershire police have cooperated in the investigation of the Portuguese authorities, as was confirmed Patricia Scotland, Minister of State and Attorney General for England and Wales.
If the judge's decision prevents the use of donated prior to the disappearance of Madeleine, it has not prevented investigators to take note of calls and inspectors to know who talked to whom.
The men of Gonçalo Amaral, now replaced by the inspector Paulo Rebelo, also had the opportunity to conduct wiretaps after the disappearance of Madeleine and while the couple and his friends were in Portugal. Once the couple and his friends returned to the United Kingdom, PJ British authorities expected the continuation of work but it is still uncertain whether all the information could be provided.
According to the interpretation given by the magistrate Criminal Tribunal 1 ª Portimão instance, Pedro Frias, the Portuguese law, upheld by the Court of the relationship, investigators can only use the data obtained in real time.In practice, it would have taken the investigators have obtained a permit before the disappearance of Madeleine.
Pedro Frias did not refuse the use of or access to all eavesdropping or recording made in connection with the investigation, but it does investigators the right to use the content of SMS sent and received by the McCann couple before May 3, 2007.
Mariana good morning
Is disgusting a responsible person put this situation ( to drink with them doesn't make them coulpable) over a criminal investigation.
This person acted as his reputation wassome value over everything :(
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