CAMPAIGNING GLOBETROTTERS ..THE THING IS WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THEIR CAMPAIGN, EXACTLY, INNOCENCE, FAME, FORTUNE?I find it really strange how Kate and Gerry had the future of their campaign all mapped out in June 2007..with the help of Clarence Mitchell of course. Kate was going to become an International Mother Teresa, perhaps having the wit to figure out her career as a GP was over and Gerry was dreaming about a 12 months anniversary event and how the cash tills would still be ringing twelve months on. Now we see all their happy plans come together and we are convinced they are innocent. I need the sick bucket again...See also how a French newspaper perceive their current little publicity campaign and how the cameras will apparently, even be following them to Washington..The same paper reports that given the number of parental abductions that take place the television would be interrupted several times a day with amber alerts. They also query whether these alerts should be limited to genuine stranger abductions which are quite rare, from a child's bed of course just about unheard of..unless of course it was the parent or someone known to the child.
Viv x
From The Sunday Times
June 17, 2007
Kate McCann may quit as GP to fight child trafficking
Steven Swinford and Mark Macaskill
THE MOTHER of Madeleine McCann may give up her job as a doctor to campaign against child trafficking and raise awareness about missing children.
Kate and Gerry McCann, whose four-year-old daughter vanished in Portugal 45 days ago, are alarmed that child trafficking is not taken seriously enough.
Kate, 38, is now considering leaving her job as a GP to campaign full-time.
A family friend said: “They have come to realise that this is a major issue. If they can act as figureheads then that’s all well and good.
McCanns forced to consider documentary bids and interviews
Madeleine McCann: the global reaction
The forgotten victim in the McCann case
Pictures: searching for Madeleine-->
Video: McCann family start holiday
Kate said last week, ‘This is my job now. I can see this becoming my full-time career, with this whole issue of child welfare and opposing paedophiles’.”
Her plans come after meeting child welfare groups and politicians on trips to European capitals.
The McCanns hope to lobby politicians to create an international system that would alert police, media and the public within hours of a child going missing. In Madeleine’s case, border posts were not told until 12 hours after her abduction.
John McCann, Madeleine’s uncle, said: “We are at the stage where we’re feeling comfortable about broadening the issue. Criminal abductions of children are happening fairly regularly across the world. It’s horrible. It’s a political issue that’s low on the agenda but should be higher.”
-----------
A documentary on ITV March 28, 2008 Kate and Gerry McCann participate in a documentary on ITV. As we announced, in short, yesterday, the parents of Madeleine took part in a television documentary to mark the commemoration of the first anniversary of the disappearance of their daughter. The cameras followed the couple since January. In the documentary, the couple spoke at length about Madeleine, in the evening where she disappeared, their status "arguidos" in Portugal and their decision to return to Britain. Parents have received no compensation for their participation in this one-hour programme on ITV. The chain, instead of paying parents to pay £ 10,000 to the Fund To Find Madeleine. They also filmed a campaign to introduce a warning system in Europe, when a child disappears, in the style of Amber system in the USA. This system would allow the authorities to demand airtime for television and radio each time a child disappears ... (Editor's note: we imagine that would only involve alerting proven cases of abduction by a stranger ... otherwise, nothing in Belgium, excluding all fugues of a minor, there were 451 record parental abductions last year ... If the European Amber system is not limited to only one or kidnappings by strangers, it would, Belgium, a little more than one alert per day! As France is 80 times larger than Belgium, the calculation is done quickly ... if we implement everything at the European level ... we will be faced with several daily alerts). Kate and Gerry were filmed in their home in Leicestershire Rothley and the cameras should accompany them to Washington in the United States, where the couple plans to continue their campaign. ITV cameras will also be present in Brussels when the parents of Madeleine will defend the project. The producer Mentorn media, Steve Anderson, said: "In the midst of the controversy, it must not be forgotten is that small is still missing and that his family has done its best to find . They are determined to do all they can to ensure that what happened to Madeleine does not happen to another child. "
271 comments:
1 – 200 of 271 Newer› Newest»Germany
The Madeleine case has split Germany, prompting fierce and surprisingly well informed arguments about whether the McCanns are guilty killers or innocent victims. “A tragedy - however you look at it,” was the headline on Stern magazine’s investigation into the disappearance published on Thursday. At the outset of the case, many Roman Catholic churches called for prayers for the distressed parents. Now the priests are not so sure
I think Father Panchecho made up his mind..
Viv,
LOL! International Mother Teresa. As for Child Trafficking what happened to the, someone is keeping her safe. What is in that box. Look at their faces.
Atardi,
I read your post on the other thread, I might not be around for a few days so thought I would reply now. I am so glad that the girl turned up in clean clothes. As I said before the truth is hard and harder still when it has to be dealt with personally. A kind word an act of guidance can make such a massive difference in someone's life. I am sure that you will always be remembered by this girl, if she ever has children of her own, she will realise totally what you were trying to convey to her and hopefully as a result when she dresses her child or children in the future she will remember what 'Mrs Artardi' had to say to her and how difficult that must have been for you. Also she will never want her child to experience how she felt that day and hopefully realise the importance of cleanliness and the responsibilty of being a parent. Atardi I also believe that it is the most difficult tasks that we have to face in life that actually show us our true self. Thank you for sharing that difficult situation, you are truly a kind person and I have no doubt you have made such a difference in this girls life. Zodiac. x
H4T,
Hope your are coping with your lemon diet. The weekend is here, be strong, remember you did it before you can do it again. It is worth it.
You should take this blog off the Internet
Viv,
Re: Iternational Mother Teresa (what I sound bite, well done) I think you hit the nail on the head.
I think she is suffering from "Princess Diana Wannabe disorder". Blond, thin, tortured, yet cannot step away from the purported miserable life as she enjoys the globe trotting, publicity and freebies.
I can just imagine a hilarious but frightening "Jerry Springer" contest for "The New Diana" title: a hot cat fight between Kate and Heather Mills.....
(PS No disrespect to Diana, but the number of narcissic blondes that atively compare themselves to her is sick. Yes Diana had her weaknesses, but she genuinely cared for people and this is why the public loved her and forgave her her weaknesses)
No, Viv.
You are NOT ,like daisy suggest, going to take your blog off the Internet. You are doing a huge, solid and honest job in informing the World about The Madeleine McCann case.
Maybee this blog is all the justice poor Maddie is getting. She surely deserves, this blog talking and standing up for her.
luv and greeting.... from Denmark
Well said, Ecolab!
Leigh3/Littlegreycell/Viv:
RE: diversion tactics, today the Sun are running a "Maddie sighting " article
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/maddie/article1003166.ece
The McCanns must be getting desparate!
However, I don't thinnk all these are paid sightings. I think when people really want to see something, they can conjurge it up in their minds.
It reminds me of the whole "moving statues" phenomenon in Ireland in the 1980s. Some teenage girls thought they saw a statue of the Virgin Mary moving. SOon there were sightings of "moving statue" all over the country. These were not "hoaxes" in a conventional sense - the people who reported these sightings themselves had actually quite sad lives, and they truely believed that they had seen the statue move. Maybe it made them feel important in a Munchenhausen kind of way.
Anyway, I teach ballet on Saturdays and I can tell you, all 4 year old girls are similar...fair hair, same height, asking lots of questions. (They are so sweet, 3-4 is such a gorgeous age, I hate to think of any harm coning to Maddie, from her parents of all people. How could once neglect a 4 year old? I have trouble not bringing my little ballet pupils home with me they are so cute. How could one leave one in a creche all day ON HOLIDAY and then alone every night...it beggars belief.
Famiy arrests in connection with Shannon's disappearance
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1004484.ece
"Alice and Amanda [mother and sister of Shannon's step father] were arrested as they attended an appointment at Dewsbury police station yesterday.
Amanda was heavily involved in the huge hunt for Shannon and wore T-shirts appealing for help. "
Sounds familiar?
"THE MOTHER of Madeleine McCann may give up her job as a doctor to campaign against child trafficking and raise awareness about missing children."
How about making people aware of the dangers of leaving children.
How about making a normal life for the twins instead of globetrotting.
How about doing what you both said you were going to do - search for Madeleine - will they have time to fit this in now?
Unbelievable people and certainly not the most suitable ambassadors to the cause. You have to win respect before you can be listened to, and they should work on that first IMO
In case some of you do not understand the meaning of PR please be advised that it has two meanings. In normal circumstances it means Public Relations, but in spin doctors cases it mean Publicity Racketeer
Have a good weekend all - off now
IMO this blog has nothing to do with Madeleine and is certainly not honest and solid. It seems to be simply a collection of the nastiest, most frustrated people around who get together to insult others to make themselves feel better about their crappy lives.
___________________________________
You are NOT ,like daisy suggest, going to take your blog off the Internet. You are doing a huge, solid and honest job in informing the World about The Madeleine McCann case.
Maybee this blog is all the justice poor Maddie is getting. She surely deserves, this blog talking and standing up for her.
Viv another excellent article- thankyou! And good morning one and all!
Pass the sick bucket on to me when you've finished with it! The fame really has gone to this couple's heads!
The documentary to be shown on ITV following the McCanns around will be paying the lucrative sum of£10,000, but not to the McCanns - it will go to the Madeleine Fund - Is that not the same thing?
How this couple just court the media and yet they profess to loathe all the publicity! They want to stop paedophilia, well who doesn't but what they should also be warning people about is the danger of leaving their young children unattended. I wonder if they will press this home in their forthcoming documentary!
Daisy -
On this forum we happen to care more about the plight of many children in this world than in the abusive and neglectful parents. I have a lot more things to do than blog on sites - I have a very busy workload plus a very enjoyable life and I'm sure many of on here will say the same, but someone has to speak for Madeleine because it seems her parents are more concerned with globetrotting and getting into the media spotlight than looking for their daughter
Finally Daisy, if you and other pros want to come here and give us a positive argument about what you consider happened to Madeleine and the intracicies of this case then you are welcome, but if you don't like us trying to achieve justice for Madeleine and you just want to come on and insult our intelligence,well you know where the door is! Thankyou!
Gina 8.56am,
My opinion also.
The witnesses who received payment from their newspapers articles. One can assume they donated their fees to the Fund.
Daisy,
You are blogging on the wrong blog.
Nancy 9.21am,
Well said!
Nancy don't go there with Daisy. She likes to think we are all mindless morons with no life or a decent home etc. If you dare mention anything to the contrary you will be called a liar and worse. Whatever you do do not mention how many bathrooms you have and it is an absolute no no to even think the McCanns are not doing everything possible to help the police and find there daughter.
Let them think we are ALL sickos, I don't care what they think anymore because I would rather be this sick than completely brainwashed and tunnel visioned
Good morning all! Viv, thank you for exellent article!
It would not surprise me if "Mother Kate" would donate the rest of the fund-money to the new europeen alert system on their visit to Belgium... One last ditch to save their reputation and names before "Game Over".
Had problems last night sending posts, lost some in cyberspace. Had written something to Leigh... Now, I just say: Have a nice day:)
And Gina: Hope your dog is ok:)
Niki
McCanns in Europe kid safety campaign
By Rod Chaytor 5/04/2008
Kate and Gerry McCann fly to Brussels to launch a child safety scheme next week while Portuguese police quiz their Tapas Seven friends in Britain.
The couple will be present on Thursday when a draft declaration goes before the European Parliament, calling for a European-wide missing child alert system.
Kate, 40, and Gerry, 39, believe that if it had been in place it could have saved daughter Madeleine, four, who vanished from Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3.
The couple, official suspects in the Madeleine case, will also appear in a global televised press conference.
Advertisement
Their spokesman Clarence Mitchell said yesterday: "Next to finding Madeleine, the introduction of a system which might save another child is the matter closest to their hearts.
"They never want another family to go through what they have gone through."
A three-man Portuguese police team will sit in on interviews by Leicestershire police of the Tap as Seven - who dined with the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared - from Tuesday.
First witness is Jane Tanner, 36, of Exeter, Devon, who saw a man carrying a child near Madeleine's apartment.
The friends have all volunteered to cooperate. None will be accompanied by lawyers.
Mr Mitchell denied that the trip to Brussels by the McCanns, of Rothley, Leics, was a "diversionary tactic".
The spokesman said: "It is a coincidence of timing."
Gina,
Niki's post just reminded me. How is your dog. Earache is a horrible ailment to suffer.
BBC NEWS WEBSITE STORY
US actor Nicolas Cage has accepted a public apology from Kathleen Turner over claims made in her autobiography.
The actress, UK publisher Headline and Associated Newspapers, which extracted the book in the Daily Mail, have also made a substantial donation to charity.
++++paragraphs not reproduced+++
The Daily Mail has agreed to publish an apology and remove the article from its website.
Headline has also agreed to insert a correction and apology into copies of Turner's book.
I WONDER WHICH PAGE?
AND I CAN’T FIND IT ON THE DM WEBSITE.
Hi Niki - Good morning
Yes my dog is fine thank you and the other one now wants her ears washed out too.
Mother Kate should be just that IMO
a mother to her twins and stop this nonsense now. There are people far better suited to the cause than she is. Look after your twins and continue to ensure your child is still being looked for (if she is missing) is all she should be doing. Or if she feels she has to do something more, then do it in private
Hi Zodiac, yes as I just told Niki all is well now, but it is something that will keep coming back I just have to keep it as clean as I can. The poor old sausage had a terrible life before I got him and it has left him with a few probs but he is happy now. Must tell you. I have two dogs, Jodie was the first one I rescued and she has been thrown over a wall and left to die as she had something wrong with her. Anyway eventually I got her fit again and she trusted people again. I felt she need the company of another dog so got Bros. They love each other and play all the time and copy what each other is doing. Jodie (a bitch) now cocks her leg for a pee. Think she is confused!!!
Enough dog talk - back to the plot
Niki,
Thank you for posting that article.
'if it had been in place it could have saved daughter Madeleine'.
If the parents had not left their children alone that would have saved Madeleine. Don't think that will be mentioned in Brussels though.
Don't think the Team will like this article it states they are 'official suspects in the Madeleine case','disappeared','diversionary tactic' and ' it is a coincidence of timing'. I remember R/pops posting ages ago the date 11/04/08 or thereabouts. Wonder if the Brussels trip was the big news that was going to damage the Tourist Industry in Portugal?
Hope it is true that the friends have volunteered to co-operate and do not have Lawyers present, that way their statements will remain private, IMHO.
Tapas 7, tell the truth and nothing but the truth.
If you cannot respect yourself you cannot expect respect from others, IMHO.
Zodiac I agree with you but I am wondering if the Tapas 7 will actually beable to remember what the truth is this far on. Why they did not volunteer to help the police sooner is totally beyond my comprehension.
Zodiac said
"If the parents had not left their children alone that would have saved Madeleine. Don't think that will be mentioned in Brussels though."
We can only hope that one of the delegates they are meeting will ask the question or will the questions be vetted before hand?
Gina,
Glad everything is getting better with your dog and they both now have a happy life.
I agree nurturing her/their other children is what she/they should be doing whilst still ensuring their missing child (if she is) is being looked for. If they feel the need to do more to helps others, because next to finding their daughter that is what is closest to their hearts, then do it privately.IMHO.
Having read info on the internet regarding Child Rescue Alert in the UK and the introduction into Europe, I do not believe the McC's are the pioneers of this Alert system, just attaching themselves to something to credible, IMHO. There are other parent/s with missing children within the EU that should be launching this system. Parent/s who are not as the article Niki posted who are not 'official suspects' in the case/s of their missing children.
I refuse to be spoonfed propaganda. I have mind of my own and I am entitled to my humble opinion.
ICTOAN.
Is that not the norm, all questions are vetted. The Media/Press interviews to be given after the meeting in Brussels, I will not be surprised if those questions are also vetted.
We can live in hope that someone like the German (I think) journalist, will ask them an invesitigative journalistic question/s. Look how well the McC's handled that question! It is about time the press started to do their job properly.
Zodiac, I agree with you totally. Whether the McCanns are innocent or guilty of Madeleines disappearance they have caused their own disrespect by creating such an high profile, which infers their child is more important than any other and they are more important than any other grieving parent. They IMO have done nothing to help the police and continue in the same way. They have a long way to go before they will win any respect from many many people- The best thing they could do at the moment is as my american daughter in law would say " shut the f..k up" and fade out and do what they want to do in private.
Going now, as I have things to do and I want to fade them out of my mind - enjoy your weekend
Gina,
I am goig also. We have SUN here today although cold, snow tomorrow!!!!!!
I agree with you American daughter-in-law, that is what they should have done months and months ago.
Have a lovely weekend Gina and everyone else.
Lets hope for proper Journalism next week.
"creating such an high profile, which infers their child is more important than any other"
Because to them she is - that can't be difficult to understand. If your child was missing what would you do? Keep quiet so no-one would think you were being pushy?
Missed an n and r in my last post.
What a numpty.
Bye all.
Hello Gina -
I've just finished picking leaves off the bayleaf tree - all my nails are now broken!
I'm so pleased your dog is picking up and that you have a companion for him - I think it's a good idea to have two dogs so they have company, especially if you have enough grounds for them to exercise in. If often see little dogs peering through their gates looking so sad on their own. What a great job you did in helping jodie back to normal. Fantastic!
I will take your advice about Daisy - I hadn't realised she was a continuous trouble maker! I can expect to get a few foul mouthed comments later then if she reads mine.
I agree totally with you that if the McCanns had come clean with the PJ's straight away and answered all questions asked it may have given Madeleine's abductor (if indeed there was one) more chance of her being found, but Kate left them with 40 unanswered questions - so what does that tell us I wonder? With all their trips and appearances, interviews etc, they don't seem to have been too worried about answering questions here in the UK. Also they don't seem too worried that something could happen to the twins, especially with them being so famous now - I would be guarding them myself 24 hours! I wonder if the police are giving the twins 24 hours surveillance when K&G are off globetrotting. I would imagine they are!
Daisy,
Was just leaving and saw your post.
If you are so offended why do you not just delete yourself from here.
As for insults about the other blog. Do you wear blinkers when you read their posts on here regarding this site and Alsabella's?
Bye now. No RSVP needed.
By the way I have a family bathroom, an ensuite shower room/wc and a family showeroom/wc downstairs.
HI Zodiac,
Well said is quite amusing really that all these people who believe that this blog should be stopped are becoming regulars posting on it. I personally would never put one post on the Pro blog, I don't agree with their objectives and don't want to discuss anything re the case with them, strangely too I don't feel the need to go and tell them where they are going wrong. If they want to support Team Mccann that is their perogative, sad though it is ..Lizzy
Nancy,
I know mostly everything we have read in the Media is probably speculation however what also would have helped if M was abducted is the urgency in contacting the Police. If as it was suggested 40 mins, then with abduction I believe the rule is a mile a minute for an abductor. Therefore she would have been 40 miles from PDL by the time her parents contacted the Police. IMHO.
Hi Zodiac,,
Ican't understand why the Mccanns have been allowed to go to the European Parliament, as after all they are suspects in the case f thier daughter's disappearance, tthat being the case it is not relevant for them to be probbing amber alerts until they are cleared of any involvement in this case. Jamie Bulger's mum would have been a far better choice in my opinion. I know that this will have been sought after by CM but a Government dept would have had to clear it. Lizzy
Hi and Bye Lizzy,
I know what you mean. I have no desire to post on their blog I do not even want to debate with them. They bored me on the DE and they bore me here. A blog they find so offensive, yet they cannot stay away. The irony is they are the offensive ones.
Have a nice weekend Lizzy. x
Lizzy,
It is joke and an embarrassment that they the Arguida/o in their daughters disappearance are representing the UK and Missing children in Europe.IMHO. I think this will not have the desired effect they thought it would have. IMHO. Next week will be interesting.
Daisy,
Can you explain to me how Madeleine didn't seem that important to her parents when they left her - and her even younger siblings - alone night after night so that they could have child-free drinking evenings?
I won't hold my breath.
LGC (2 bathrooms and a downstairs loo)
Daisy,
P.S. One bathroom is ensuite.
Oh, and Daisy,
If you don't like who we are or what we write, why are you here?
Personally, I don't wander onto blogs about all-in wrestling because it's just not my thing. Nor, though, do I berate the people who do visit those sites.
So it's a little perplexing to find you on here in the first place, let alone posting what horrible, nasty people we are.
Why do you persist where you're not welcome? Seems like a curious form of victim behaviour to me.
Daisy just to set the record straight from my point of view and I am not speaking to others.
Ok, so may you do not know about the bathroom thing. It was only that I had been discussing the case and mentioned that I was going to bed as and when I could get into the bathroom as I had friends staying. someone said they know the problem it is a pain, and I said I have 3 bathrooms and still it is not enough. That lead the other blog to accuse me of being a liar, that the police officer friends that I had staying were a figment of my imagination and no way did I have 3 bathrooms. It is impossible to say anything on here without someone jumping on it on a personal level and making accusations that they cannot prove.
Why would I lie about something as stupid as that which as you say is not of interest to anyone.
You asked what I would have done if it were my child. Well the answer is exactly the opposite to what the McCanns did. I would have totally co-operated with the police and ensured my friends did too. If for whatever reason I had been made a suspect I would not have walked away from it. I would have got a good lawyer and insisted that I was requestioned and any doubts clarified. I would have kicked up one hell of a stink and ensured that the police either charged me or released me from arguido status. I would not have wasted time going to America, seeing the Pope and dragging the press around with me. I would have made tv appeals as is the norm. I would not have brought attention to Madeleine eye, it was not necessary and could have endangered her further because an abductor would know he can alter her appearance but not that. I would have contacted all the missing child agency, and if I were lucky enough as they have been to be given so much money I would not have wasted a penny on it hiring a PR man because I would not have needed one because I would have been cleared of suspicion in the early days. I would have, like they have, hired private help but I would have chosen someone better equipped for the job than Metodo 3. That is only for starters, and I certainly would not be globetrotting about and leaving my others kids at home with the family or whoever.
Regard this blog: I agree with some comments but not all, but they have the right to their opinion in the same way as you have just had. You are right none of us have the facts but firstly we would not be questionning what we are being fed if this case were not so high profile and secondly it is possible you know that either the McCanns or their friends are not telling the truth, and it is the truth that people on here want. The more people come on here and say blogs like this should be closed down, the more I wonder why - Are they afraid something that is trying to be covered up is going to be found out by someone on here. If the McCanns are innocent they have nothing to fear have they. Also tarring everyone with the same brush who posts on a blog is very narrow minded and unfair
Zodiac,
I agree it might actually have the reverse effect them being there. Thinking people will say, why didn't they just stay in with their children then no alerts required, or will say aren't they suspects in the case, wonder why they are there? Because that is the reality they are still suspects in the case ..Lizzy
Penelope,
Morning! I, too, noticed that Madeleine is now on holiday in Tenerife. She does appear to be seeing quite a bit of the world - a bit like Metodo 3, who must have catapulted the travelling toothbrush market into global proportions.
To be honest, I'm surprised she's only popped up in Tenerife of late; I expected to find her in Tobago, Tel Aviv and my local Woolworths with all this talk of the police interviews (Oo, look over there, PJ!).
I agree with you that not all the sightings are commissioned. And people are apt to jump to the wrong conclusion very easily. I'm just waiting for someone to approach me about my penguin (he'd look very sweet in a blond wig, don't you think?)
LCC! LOL:)
--
Was reading some responses to e-mails sent to posters from 3A who had questioned their MEP why the McCanns had been invited to Brussel.
Quite a lot had the same message: Innocent until proven guilty...
--
Have to go,
have a nice day everyone:)
Niki
Gina,
Good stuff! Agree with all of it.
(1 kitchen, 2 cats, lots of tea bags).
:)
Niki,
Interesting post.
What will they think should the McCanns be found guilty of something?
Not beyond the bounds of possibility, seeing as they're arguidos...
Perhaps they'll be inviting Craig Meehan, too. After all, he's not been found guilty of anything yet.
(Did you see the clip of Bill Clinton snub Brown at a summit? Priceless!)
LGC
I am going out to dinner tonight with some more of my imaginary friends. I thought I was going to meet them at the restaurant, but they have insisted on picking me up so that means I need to tidy up the place instead of laying in the sun. Poo, REALLY REALLY REALLY not looking back on here now, so will leave you to hold the fort. There is no point me making my point to Daisy any further, if she does not understand where I am coming from by now she never will. :>)
Morning all Just reading back xxx
Gina,
Hope you will imagine having a lovely time tonight.
If you think that's bad, though, someone told me my penguin wasn't real! Can you believe that? How misguided can you get?
X LGC (1 tumble dryer, 11 cushions, 67,943 blades of grass).
P.S. If the Pros think I'm fibbing about the grass, they're welcome to come over and do an audit.
P.S. No daisies
LGC and a partridge in a pear tree - see what a liar I am, I looked back in here - cover blown now :-( Adios amiga
Gina,
You didn't say how many pears...
Daisy
Sadly Madeleine is more than likely dead or at best may be in the hands of sick scum who will not be treating her as a princess as she deserves to be.
I cant talk all the time about what hell this poor little girl is or was going through as it is too upseting..
Therefore the investigation and even personal things are talked about as we have got to know each other...
Madeleine is the victim one of neglect and two well we dont know abduction or death in the apartment by accident or at someones hand that is sick that is sad...
As for my Crappy life sorry to disapoint you but mine is fantastic thanks. I have a loving family which includes two beautiful daughters and a lovely husband lucky enough still to have my parents as well a lottery win would be fantastic but Money cant buy love and health and we are lucky there as well...
If you dont like the blog dont read it I am sure you are not so sad that you have to read things that offend you???
Kate wants to tackle the problem of child slavery and peadophiles dont we all I also want to tackle the problem of child abuse and neglect because the neglect if she was taken allowed the sick scum to take her...
If you have children adore them they are worth every second of your love and time.
Oh and BTW this is Viv's blog she is the only one who can ask us to stay on topic and out of respect for her and the time she has spent here I would listen to her.
Zodiac -
Exactly - 40 questions left unanswered, 40 chances for whoever took Madeleine to get away with this crime.
I hope they enjoy their trip to Belgium at the taxpayer's expense!
I sometimes wonder how all other parents who have a child missing through no fault at all of their own, feel about the McCanns being given priority in everything they do, even managing to stop the newspapers and media whenever it suits them. If I was one of those parents, I would feel pretty unhappy by their preferential treatment!
LGC
Gosh is that all the grass you have I have trebble that and 2 tumble dryeres one for right socks and one for left socks...
How are you feeling today???
Had soup for brunch now looking forward to lunch but not going until about 3.00 so may have more soup (whey hey)...
Gina I hope you imagine you will have a good time later xxx
Nancy,
I quite agree with you. The McCanns have become the most famous (not even notorious) parents of a missing child in the whole world - even though they negated to perform their duty of care to their three small children night after night.
They plainly didn't value their daughter enough to forego an evening in a tapas bar, and yet they are now sold to us as the epitome of fantastic parents!
I would be mightily p*ssed off if I, too, was in the tragic position of having had my child seized - especially if I had not been culpable in the slightest degree.
Hello Hope,
I'm very well, thanks. How are you?Don't eat too much soup or you won't have any room left for real food, and then those poor waitresses will cop it again!
When I mentioned the blades of grass, I forgot to say that's all you can see from the west wing of my estate; there's even more around the east wing, although the land outside the servants quarters now has decking.
Is it 'an occasion' tonight, Hope?
My hubby's away this evening, so it's just me and the (6') kid, who will undoubtedly eat enough for 12, as usual.
Have you watched Most Haunted yet?
PJ plans leaked to British press came from Leicester. Can someone copy this report from Mccannfiles as I don't know how. Sorry if you've read it before.
Just reading that Shannon's Stepfathers Mother and Sister have been bailed what a sad sad story I pray her Mother knew nothing about it so at least Shannon will know that she was not put into the situation she was by the one Woman who should put her above everything.
If she goes home I hope she is treated with all the compasion and love she deserves and everyone remembers just how happy they were when she was found and talk to their children to tell them she had been through so much already and they are to be extra kind to her and if they see any ill manered bullys picking on her to stand up for her and call a teacher...
Children can be so cruel but with decent parenting no child would be picked on ever again...
My Dad bought the Mail (I think) today and the headline was that the family was breaking down and all of the Country were because of it... I think they are not far off Family is not the done thing these days there is no incentive for staying married a freind of mine seperated from her Husband last year and has one child and now gets an extra £600 a month in benefits???
I understand that people need support but her husband is still paying half the mortgage and maintenece for their son and now they are better off (She has not spent it yet as she is sure it is wrong and she will have to pay it back but she has been writing and calling for nealy a year now and they say it is right)???
Familys do not have to be a Mum and Dad 2.4 children it can be 1 parent or two parents of the same sex a Grandparent but familys need to be important and hold each other together bringing children up to respect people (I still respect my elders but not for much longer as I am becoming an elder
:o(...) But when educated people think less of their children than a drink in the bar things have gone downhill a very long way...
Maybe now is the time the Government will take action to ensure that children are put first and by that I mean the word NO is used as well as bying your child or allowing them to think they are the only person that matters..
Sorry end of rant xxx
LGC
Damn you may have more grass than me after all I will have the driveway dug up imediatly to rectify this...
No special occasion we are away from next Friday for a week (abseling rock climbing near the sea somewhere) It is more for the girls but they are looking forward to it I wanted to go somewhere sunny...
So we wont see My Father in Law for 2 weeks and we try to go over every weekend as he is on his own... Not that he is lonely he and the "Scooby Gang" (named as such by my niece) are allways off somewhere doing something or in each others houses eating and drinking or away on holiday (I think he had about 9 Holidays last year)...
He is a lovely Man (like his son) so it is allways nice to see him...
In fact I think he is off to Germany in the next week or so with one of his clubs so may not see him for longer...
Started Watching MH not sure about the Psycic or the man taking notes we will have another look later but must watch it and delete it as it is taking up 8 hours on the virgin box...
So you can watch what you want to tonight then or will your son be in charge of the remote??? xxx
Lorraine (Hello)
I cant find it where abouts is it???
If you hlod the left key on your mouse down and highlight the text by draging the mouse over it all it will go a darker colour then put your mouse in the middle of the text while it is still darker and use the right button of your mouse it will bring up a list of options choose copy...
Then come back to the blogger and right click again and choose paste and it is done...
xxx
Lorraine
Sorry when you have highlighted all you want to take your finger off the left key xxx
British already know all about PJ's mission in England Jornal de Noticias
Marisa Rodrigues
(Thanks to 'pear' from the3arguidos forum for translation)
Kate and Gerry will not be questioned by the Judiciary Police
The Judicial Police (PJ) will not have an easy job in England where, as of Monday, the letter rogatory in the case Madeleine McCann will be put in force. The plan for the action, as well as the content of the document, which should have remained a judicial secret, reached the hands of the British press, even before the departure of Portuguese researchers.
According to what JN found yesterday, British journalists were informed by sources, they say from the police, of the steps that will take place next week. When, where and who will be heard were some of the data that was accessed. Even the hotel where the PJ will be housed was reported to them. What, in the opinion of source connected to the research, "is the evidence that the leakage of information of the police departed from Leicester, that shows not being interested in cooperating in the investigation, damaging it by making public the intentions of PJ."
This means that the group of three detectives, led by the coordinator of PJ of Portimão, Paulo Rebelo, will not surprise the 24 people that will be interviewed. Most - 14 - will be determined by the Portuguese authorities. This number includes the group of friends of the couple McCann, now known as "Tapas 7". The other interrogations were requested by parents of Madeleine. This is the case of Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the couple, Justine McGuiness, who held the same job, and the psychologist who has followed Kate.
The arrival of PJ is scheduled for 12.20 pm on Monday. That same day there will be some interrogations, none of them considered very relevant to the investigation. The next day, the "Tapas 7" will begin to be interviewed. Jane Tanner, which guarantees having seen a man carrying a child in his arms that she believes was Madeleine, will be the first. The McCann, as the JN already said, will not be questioned by decision of the prosecutor, who considered the investigation a "waste of time".
The couple will be traveling on Thursday to Brussels, where they will meet with MEPs involved in the creation of an alert system for European missing or abducted children. "Pure coincidence," ensures the spokesman of the couple.
hope, did i manage it?
Hope,
Forgot to say that we have only one helicopter landing pad currently. This is a little bit embarrassing, obviously, but we're hoping that the general public will take pity on us and make some donations...
My mother-in-law died a few years ago and we suggested to my father-in-law that he buy a dog for company. (Not to suggest my mother-in-law could be replaced by a dog). This he steadfastedly refused to do. One day we called him up and said where are you, and he replied that he was at the seaside in the company of TWO widows! Pretty soon after that he married a lovely woman. Still no dog, however.
The medium on the most recent MHL is not a medium at all, more like an extra small. Plank. I quite like the guy with the equipment. (Oo, missus). If you watch nothing else, you must see Yvette, Lesley and Kath on their own in the castle on the last night. It's a bit of a way in - maybe half way?
I'll TRY and watch what I like this evening, but if not, it'll be a film (or 3). Haven't seen what's on yet, but we often play Scrabble or something similar at the same time. As long as I win. The butler brings it over from the one of the games rooms, and then generally I give him the night off.
Oh, just noticed, Daisy seems to have gone...
:)
Lorraine 10 /10
Well done if you want to copy a link you do the same in the address bar and it automatically turns into a hyperlink so you can click on it to go to the page...
xxx
LGC
Oh that is lovely I wish he could meet someone he has been on his own for nearly 10 years now and he is so lovely it would be nice to have a special someone to share things with...
Oh when we give the Butler the night off the under butler takes over how do you manage???
Yes Daisy seems to have gone I wonder which one she was can they not make their point as themselves or as their blog name???
Will watch some more later and zoom through some of it we both sit here really still when it is on then jump out of our skins every so often then I moan and say what noise they are all talking over the noise LOL
xxx
LGC
Only one you poor thing... Look out for a jiffy bag stuffed with cash in the next few days xxx
Thanks Hope.
I'm going to have my only bet of the year on the Grand National today and am looking at the horses. Anyone got any tips? I've seen a horse named Idle Talk 100/1 and the name made me think of Clarrie but think I'll give it a miss. Knowing my luck it will finish first.
LGC,
Oo, look over there,PJ. LOL!
Has CM possibly realised that the public are not fooled by the distractions, he has to now deny in the Media, it is not a distraction merely a coincidenece.
Lorraine
Very intresting article thanks for that but I am not sure that the comment by CM "Pure coincidence," is true???
I think since the Murder of Holly and Jessica police are moving forward in information be shared by every force. If a child is taken it should allready be easy to put out a bulletin to the ports and airports. Sad thing is if a child is taken by a stranger they are usually killed very soon after being taken.
If a child has been killed and a family member is trying to cover it up an alert system would not help either.
I am all for child saftey just dont think the McCanns are the people to promote it they let their children down and then refused to help the PJ by answering questions. I cant think of a single question I would refuse to answer if my chid were missing then again I would not leave them alone either.
Lorraine
I have no tips but am off to place my yearly £10.00 bet on a horse with very high odds may just back the one you said...
A few years ago I backed a horse at really high odds and nearly all the horses fell mine finished along with a few others which made me realise any horse can win....
xxx
Lorraine
When I say it finished it was not in the first 5 but was not far behind have not won a thing for years...
I am off now see you all later xxx
Hope
Try to pick a winner. Speak to you later.
Good afternoon all
Lorraine thanks for the about post.
I found the comments, that the prosecutor considered the investigation a "waste of time" very interesting.
These were the same words posted on here recently by someone from the other site, I can't remember who, and it was pointed out that the reason the McCanns were not going to be re-interviewed was because they would not answer the questions.
Makes me now wonder if this person had actually seen this report.
niki,
Innocence - "free of blame".
The McCanns allege their child was abducted during their abandonment of three vulnerable children - two 2 year old babies and their 3 year old sister. This occurred for five consecutive nights in an alien environment.
On behalf of Police investigators, Eddie & Keela confirmed death and forensic evidence they pinpointed substantiate it.
Police procedures in this case continue to be subjected to political intervention, delaying tactics, hindrance and manipulation.
Until such time as two Police forces dossiers of evidence are fully examined in Court, the question of the McCanns guilt cannot and will not be determined.
At worst they are guilty of child abandonment; the Police perspective in this case, based on substantiated evidence is that the McCanns are responsible for the forensics, the disappearance of their daughter, wasting police time and, along with their associates - including CM - perverting the course of justice.
By their own admissions, the McCanns are guilty gross neglect.
Political prevention of requestioning the McCanns on past and new evidence along with presentation of ALL evidence in a Court of Law for Judgement does not exonerate GUILT.
Perverting the course of justice does not and will never uphold a plea of innocence.
In parallel cases, Sarah's and Sohom schoolgirls and, indeed, Shipman, suspects were subjected to Police procedures, like it or not, and were made answerable to Court.
The protection, legal and media manipulation applied for nearly one year in this case is as abhorrent as the damning forensics.
Forum commentators, Police and dossiers of evidence are treated as McCanns enemies and subjected to equal threat and menace on a daily basis.
presented to and JThe fact that unrelenting political intervention coupled with Police suspicions.
niki,
Typo - para 4 - to read "McCanns innocence to be determined - their plea against police findings".
Good morning Viv and all!!
How dare Mccann's to participate in "kid safety campaign" being themselves child neglectors?!!!
Of course they contribute given the exemple what parents MUASTN?T do, NEVER.
First point for kids safety is not being alone.
sorry *can contribute
*must not
I said on Alsas site that if someone abandoned a puppy do you think the RSPCA would want this person involved in their campaign to stop cruelty to animals. Don't think so. Makes you wonder what these organizations have to benefit by allowing the mccanns to be involved in their campaigns.
Totally agree with you Lorraine.
I think someone like Sarah Paynes mother would be much better suited to this campaign and I am sure would receive far more respect.
What I wonder is if everyone already knows the McCanns are going to get off scot-free, otherwise there are going to be some very embarrassed people.
Does anyone know if a reconstruction of May 3rd was ever done. Most cases usually have a reconstruction but I suppose in this case it would be difficult knowing which version to reconstruct, due to all the discrepancies. The PJ certainly havent had things made easy for them have they.
Di I have been thinking for a few weeks now that the mccanns will get off scot free and i think they know it to.
Lorraine
I remember seeing something on the news about the PJs trying to work out several senarios, and I think this is when it was stated that there was no evidence pointing to an abduction.
Charity begins at home - will the twins be MISSING their parents in their self promoting travels on behalf of MISSING children ??
Are the twins receiving more or less parental care, love and stability since their sister's death (Police perspective) or has the use of nursery facilities increased ?
Their behaviour actually makes me feel sick - the mind boggles as to what parents of true abductions must feel. Sarah Payne's mother was prevented from achieving her aims for public access to paedophile registers. Her efforts to protect children from similar horrendous fate were largely fruitless.
Miliband appears focussed on making McCanns ambassadors, despite their admission of neglectful parenting.
Political involvement in this case is sending out dangerous messages threatening childrens' safety.
Shannon Matthews family hoped to obtain £1 m by criminal deception -inspired by McCanns success. Shannon was knowingly left in an at risk situation by her family for 24 days in the hands of, according to reports, an unsuitable adult. The entire family hid his existence, identity and address.
But for the McCanns example, this family would have not have considered acting the way they did.
The McCanns are a public menace -
a risk to the safety of other people's children. This is on top of neglecting their own !!! horren
Shannon at risk in the hands the mercy
Miliband has made McCanns ambassadors, despite the fact Politically favoured McCanns
Di
This is why I can't understand why some people are so sure that an abduction occured. If there was the tiniest peice of evidence to suggest this then we could consider it but I don't see how people can be so convinced of an abduction without a hint of evidence to suggest it.
If I remember rightly, when no evidence for an abduction was mentioned, this is when Jane Tanner came up with egghead which fitted in nicely at the time. Then as we know, from then on, her staterment changed several times.
2345
I would love to know whether you think the McCanns will ever be convicted. We know the fss evidence but do you think people in high places will get them off.
2345
Excellent post,the Mccanns are an example of parenting that no parent should follow, the fact they are being supported and held up as examples by our Government, only shows what kind of Government we have. Miliband in his clearing the way for the Mccanns to attend this European Parliament meeting next week has really considerably weakened the PJ case, if our own Government are supporting them in this way, this is to make people believe in their innocence, then how many are going to oppose a cover up and them being cleared.
Good afternoon all!
The Swedish newspaper Expressen currently heads it’s website with an article saying that Madeleine may have been seen on Teneriffa’s airport. A woman named Margaret Jones claims to have seen Madeleine while waiting for her plane back to Cardiff.
According to the Swedish paper Jones has told CNN that the little girl (who was in company with a man) disappeared out of sight and Jones herself had to board her plane.
When M. Jones arrived home she contacted Metodo 3.
The article doesn't say when M. Jones is supposed to have seen Madeleine. And I haven't been able to find it on CNN's site.
I don’t know if this is news to you or not, but thought I’d let you know.
Hi guys - after midnight here in Oz, and I finally get a chance to get on my PC, lol!
Viv, I'm really quite put-off by the idea of someone like the McCanns campaigning on behalf of anything to do with child protection, considering that they epitomise the slack parental attitude that leads to children going missing in the first place! It is stupid, ironic, and frankly, "ludicrous" of them to think they are in any way qualified or justified in doing work of this kind. However, and I know this opinion will not go down well with some here, I really don't believe the McCanns (or anyone) would have the sheer, unmitigated nerve it would take to go about the world campaigning on serious issues like this - drawing attention to themselves, meeting with international figure-heads, etc - if they knew deep down in their hearts they had killed their daughter. You could argue, I guess, that the reason they drew so much attention to themselves in the early days (Richard Branson, J.K Rowling, the Pope, etc) was as a red-herring to take the attention off of themselves and the immediate area around PDL. Personally, I think this would be a weak argument (wouldn't they simply draw MORE attention to themselves?), but you COULD argue it, I suppose. However, what about now that they are "arguidi" and know full-well that many people suspect they killed their daughter - would they really risk it now? Cameras everywhere they go; people all over the world knowing what they are up to each week; and most of all, campaigning for "missing children's issues"?? Would they REALLY have the gall to campaign on such issues in such a high profile way if they'd killed their OWN child??
Personally, I find it hard to believe that they would - not unless they are two of the most diabolical killers that have ever walked the planet and actually WANT the whole world to catch them out (a sort of cat and mouse game), and that .. I don't believe. Sometimes killers (usually serial killers) will taunt the local newspapers or police with cryptic clues about what they have done. They do, in effect, play cat and mouse games. But these games are usually on a relatively small level, and the criminals have killed many times for fun. I think we all agree that if the McCanns DID kill Madeleine it would have been accident, so why would they then want to taunt the whole world by openly campaigning for missing children causes and drawing attention to themselves?? It just doesn't make sense.
My personal take on the McCanns is that they epitomise yuppie selfishness and the "me" generation, and that they loved Madeleine more like an expensive car or item of furniture than a child. Somewhere along the line, they "lost" her (like one loses one of their favourite handbags) and it has affected them, sure, but not as much as it would have deeper, more humane, more loving parents (in other words: NORMAL parents!). I agree their behaviour post-Madeleine's disappearance is very, VERY weird, and even sickening to many (most?) people, but even in the face of this, I find it very hard to believe, if I am objective, that they actually killed Madeleine.
Viv -
You mention Father Panchecho in your first post. Has there been any more news about this Priest? I wonder if the McCanns will visit him if and when they visit PdL again in order to thank him for his kindness to them in their hour of need. I hope he is still not reliving a nightmare of what happened almost a year ago and is getting on with his life free from any feelings of frustration of that horrendous time.
2345 -
You have reiterated something I've been saying for a long time; the McCanns by making this search for Madeleine via a wide world publicity campaign and people donating a million and more pounds, plus compensation from a national newspaper, only encourges people who are much less well off and who have no scruples whatsoever to jump on the gravy train, as in Shannon's case. The McCanns are actually encouraging child abduction rather than actually doing anything constructive to stop it - they could wear t-shirts emblazoned with 'please don't leave your child alone - remember Madeleine!' for instance. That would have a far more positive result I'm sure.
Whoever encouraged the McCanns, if indeed they needed encouragement, to turn this into a world wide media circus have done no favours for vulnerable children - in fact the opposite!
Justice for Madeleine and all vulnerable children!
To Nancy,
And they (the McCanns) have certainly been crass in their publicity, for example, by having an "online shop". I know that they sell t-shirts and mugs with Madeleine's image on them, but it still strikes me as tasteless.
I just think everything they do is corporate-minded (to a ridiculous extent) and that they don't know any other way. They are the epitome of the money-oriented yuppie.
Hi all and what an interesting read as usual.
Kate trying to portray herself as some haunted Princess Diana figure whilst nevertheless havimg to get on with her public engagements. I could not help but notice that in the Antennae 3 interview in October and also the Christmas video she looked far more attractive than she had ever done before.
Why is it this narcissist cannot get on with the ordinary business of behaving like a decent mom, staying with her twins instead of globetrotting?
Why did she get her mother to make those remarks about her appearance..trying to suggest the public did not like her just because of this? What we do not like is a woman where her appearance and public image are more important to her than acting like any other normal mom. As someone else wrote above Princess Diana was a public figure, she had public duties to maintain. She genuinely was a very beautiful person, not just physically but in the way that matters. She had a genuine empathy with the sick and the poor and an overwhelming and genuine love for children, including her own. This is why the public loved her. This is what has always been completely lacking in the behaviour of Kate McCann. My title to her International Mother Teresa was meant as a piece of satire..a useful tool to make a serious point.
Mr Mitchell denied that the trip to Brussels by the McCanns, of Rothley, Leics, was a "diversionary tactic".
The spokesman said: "It is a coincidence of timing."
I beg to differ, Clarence, like the rest of your hair brained schemes to make the McCanns look like normal, decent people it is a disastrous mistake and quite contemptuous attempt to bury seriously bad news.
As witnesses the TAPAS 7 would not be entitled to have their lawyers present and neither would the police be entitled to search their homes and seize property. Procedurally this could only happen if they becomes suspects. Procedurally in terms of prosecuting the McCanns it may be better for the police to keep them as witnesses who will be forced to give frank and honest evidence, they will not have the suspect's "right to silence".
By the way Daisy/Supetroll
Take your boring blog wars somewhere else x As you confirm on your own pathetic little site, you dont want to discuss the case, you just like to cause trouble. Neither side want you.
Hiya Bianca
You certainly sum up the way I have always felt about the McCanns making Madeleine/themselves a brand image to be peddled around the world for the most cash.
I can remember the first time I went to their Find Madeleine site and saw the prominent Paypal/donate button. When I got to the Online shop and tacky merchandise to use Gerry's phrase it made me "sick to the core". Tacky, tasteless, disgusting...The thought of anyone suggesting one of my own children or grandchildren could be treated in this way, fills me with horror. How terribly disrespectful to confuse the sanctity of human life with cash and commercialism.
We respect little Madeleine as a Human Being, not a brand image = what poor excuses for parents. This is what creates revulsion for Kate and Gerry McCann. We know we would not wish to make money or become international celebrities on the back of losing our own precious little child.
Hiya Swedishmum
Thanks for details of yet another Maddie sighting at an airport with loads of police and security no doubt but when she got home she contacted Metodo 3. Says it all really!
Viv x
Hi Viv,
Couldn't agree more. That whole website is just not what I would expect from the parents of a missing little girl, including Gerry's journal (it's more like a business diary). They are off-putting, bizarre people, and I can honestly understand why people are alienated by them or can't feel any sympathy for them. Furthermore, based on their cold, commercially-oriented behaviour, I can understand why people may even think them killers, however, as I say, I still find that concept hard to reconcile, considering how publicly they are choosing to live their lives.
Hiya Nancy
The last I heard of Father Panchecho he had a personality change from a happy man living with other Priests and jovial and popular in the community to a reclusive and depressed man,moving back in with his parents and feeling the McCanns abused his trust.
I am sure he does not wish to publically comment to the world how devastated he is. People who are genuinely suffering never find the need to do that, they are private in their grief.
I hope he is receiving help in trying to come to terms with what he knows. It was reported some months back the police spent a few days fully de-briefing him. No doubt he will be a prosecution witness although I am sure he would absolutely dread that.
Hiya Bianca
It is not just because of the way they are behaving it is because of the evidence and the continuing police case against them that convinces me of their guilt.
Quite simply the Portuguese Judge would not be allowing the PJ to waste millions pursuing this case if the evidence did not support it. Neither would the UK have a team of 30 officers headed by a Detective Super dealing with it if there was no case. That would be a criminal waste of resources. Both countries will allocate resources where they need to be investigating serious crime, that is what they are doing with the McCanns the people they are investigating, that is the reality.
Manipulative, self-serving behaviour is what serious criminals do, it is certainly not what innocent parents do.
Hi again Viv,
Well when you explain it like that, it DOES seem implausible that both the British and Portuguese police would waste so much time and money if they honestly didn't think there was a case to present. Obviously they do, but it makes me wonder what it could really be, only because I tend to think that if it were anything that strong, it would have come out by now.
Or would it??
I don't know (and as you well know, I am no legal expert), but things seem to be dragging on and on.
Anyway, I'm sure we'll find out what is going on relatively soon, as I guess a lot depends on what the Tapas 7 have to say, when the PJ come to town. If they ARE keeping any really dark secrets (meaning the Tapas 7) I'm sure Kate and Gerry are panicking no end. It does seem odd though that they would still have the nerve to go out and campaign for Amber Alerts and the like if they really feared what their friends might reveal about them - wouldn't they want to stay close by and monitor things?
Oh well, I just find the whole thing weird, to be honest!
Hi Viv
Just wondered about Father Panchecho, I remember comments stating he was a broken man and did not want to hear the McCanns name mentioned ever again.
Regarding the police de-briefing, would he be able to disclose any information he received in private confessions?
IMO putting Kate McCann in charge of missing children, is a bit like putting a shark in charge of the swimming pool.
jj
LOL.....
I am convinced there is some further agenda, but what?
Hiya Bianca
In terms of a very serious case, with very intelligent defendants, who have consistently destroyed and perverted evidence gathering, the police do not even have the body the length of the investigation is not surprising at all. If they had found Madeleine's body inside the apartment they would have almost immediately been charged but this is not the case.
The further issue of course that has really dragged the investigation out is the McCanns immediate dash back home and failure to co-operate with the Portuguese investigation. This has forced the Portuguese to have to rely upon very time consuming and expensive procedures for "mutual legal assistance" from the British. So much investigative work needs to be done with people resident in the UK anyway. The complexity involved of two separate police forces having to work together in this way and the different legal rules of each country just cannot be underestimated.
Finally perhaps we should remember just how long it took British Police to investigate and bring to trial Huntley and Shipman, who were here and so were all the witnesses, not in Portugal which would most definitely have made it take much longer still.
It has still only been a year from when Madeleine actually disappeared and the McCanns have only been official suspects since September. In all the circumstances this is not a long period of time, at all. The police in both countries are progressing mattters just as fast as the can, but at every stage, the case has to go back before the Judge in Portugal to allow it to proceed to the next to ensure those resources are being focussed correctly, as they undoubtedly are, on Kate and Gerry McCann.
Evening All,
Just read earlier posts, and think many excellent points have been made which further convince me that honest inquiry will pursue the truth, wherever it leads, however long it takes. This the 21st Century. The honest public now have the means to exchange information, and opinion.
Politicians and power brokers detest that idea. Too late. The genie is out of the bottle! :-)
Hi NIKI. Nothing new under the sun, as the Greeks said! Gr8 to read your post of the newspaper article. Did you notice how carefully the words were chosen? How intensely annoying it will be for Public Racketeers (nice one, Gina!) to see how journalists will get around Clarry's threats?
I noticed. I think it will intensify. The Press press on. This is the long game, and jobsworths like Gerry McCann and Clarence Mitchell lack the stamina for it, imo...just like their little coterie of flowery named girlies, deployed on the internet to silence public comment.
Boo, girlies! You are a chore, 'daisy' etc; a mere obstacle to be overcome.
The longer this lying charade continues, the greater the public backlash will be, imo.
2345: I agree with you, along with many others on this forum and elsewhere who would rather consider the uncomfortable facts than wallow in cosy lies.
Hi Viv! Fab headline article. A useful reminder in this 'quiet' before the storm.
I see 2345 is being put under pressure on 3As...
http://the3arguidos.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8018
Hiya Di
In UK law it is decided that evidence a Priest receives in a confessional is admissible against a person accused of serious crime. He must disclose this. I do not know whether this is the same in Portugal but think it is likely it would be. This obviously would be agonising for Fr Pachecho but really seriously doubt the McCanns would have been foolish enough to confess anything to him. His evidence will be more to do with their behaviour immediately after the event. The court will consider was this normal behaviour for a couple in the position they claim that they were?
Di,
The only agenda I can think of is that it would be a massive bluff. I mean, look at me for eg. I'm sitting here saying: would the McCanns REALLY go out and campaign so publicly for child-protection causes if they knew they had killed their own daughter?? Would they risk drawing so much attention to themselves, blah blah blah?
Maybe this is what they want. Maybe their "bluff" is to get people asking that exact question; to get them doubting that they could be so public if they really had something to hide (??)
I don't know. It seems like a HUGE bluff and a huge risk to take (if they really are guilty of killing Madeleine) but anything is possible I guess!
Hello Sheila! (Bianca!). Just teasing :-)
Great to see your insightful opinions again. BTW, I do think it is a 'bluff', just as you suspect.
Leigh
Di,
Is she coping? She usually does. Let me know, if you get a moment.
Ta.
Leigh
Hi Di
Had a quick look at 3 As but it is a discussion around whether Gordon Brown is perverting the course of justice by protecting Kate and Gerry. I find this rather tedious and in fact down right silly!
Hello All
Lorraine I backed Nandover @ 200/1 £5 each way and it came in 7th !!!!
If it had come on 4th I would have won £255 and 1st would have netted me £1260 the lady in the book makers laughed when I chose it but as I said to her if I am going to loose £10 I may as well loose it on something with good odds....
7th was not bad... How did you get on????
Hello Viv
Another good article it really comes to something when parents who neglect their children and will not admit that it was neglect get to parade around looking like saints...
They must be very hard faced I could not hold my head up if I had done what they did least of all if I was a suspect.. xxx
Ta, Viv.
This very simple case is being made unnecessarily complex due to the sophisticated/stupid machninations of McCann Machine media manipulators.
I think 2345 is right to highlight the forensic information at every opportunity as a way of keeping all eyes on the facts, not the fiction of this case.
I think there has been preferential treatment give to the McCanns and others due to their political and media contacts in the UK.
These two points are related, but they are different. Step by step, this case should not be diverted by those who seek to blur the lines between due process of law, and poliitics/PR, imo.
Confusion only serves cynical self interest. That can only harm the chances of justice for Madeleine, and all children, imho.
Eyes wide open.
Hi Leigh, it's great to see you again too. I always enjoyed your friendly, upbeat posts at the DE :-) (throw another shrimp on the barbie! lol)
Well, if this campaigning for children's causes is all a bluff, there will no doubt be a lot of angry parents of genuinely missing children, not to mention company execs, if the McCanns are found guilty of killing Madeleine. These organisations will feel embarrassed that they ever believed the McCanns story, and may even fear their reputations will be permanently tarnished. I can see legal suits and defamation claims arising out of this. This, however, is why I believe the McCanns are telling the truth (about not killing Madeleine, that is). If they are as smart as Viv thinks they are, they would have thought of all this, and for the potential legal suit alone, not taken the risk.
P.S. not being a smart aleck Viv, just trying to reason things out.
Hiya Hope
I think when you have lived a lie for longing enough in a desperate bid to win public support and proclaim your innocence, little by little you would become more comfortable in that role, particularly as the pressure upon you seriously increases with the grilling of their friends..
Serious criminals are known to not have any shame. It has been suggested that shaming them may be a good way of addressing their offending behaviour. This has been carried to extremes with Americans making criminals wear placards. The McCanns are doing this to themselves..
Lux:
Here's two words for the McCanns, and their supporters to recite to themselves: 'mea culpa'.
Until they can speak plain English or grasp plain law/latin, they will be forever under suspicion, by their own words and actions.
That's how it works, in plain English.
Hi Hope
No luck for me either, I backed Mr Pointment, think it was 5th or something. My hubby backed the winner, as usual. I'm deciding what to spend it on, as usual.
On a lighter note.
On 3As this morning someone said they had tried to put an e-petition up on the gov site, against the McCs speaking about Amber alert and it was turned down. However, the poster stated Jeremy Clarkson for Prime Minister had been accepted.
I found the petition and signed it sent it to hubby and guess what!!!
He signed it TONY BLAIR and it was accepted.
LOL
Viv
Hello hope you are ok???
I guess if you lie for long enough you start to believe your own version of the truth...
I have been telling myself that I am still a size 8 for years but there is something wrong with my mirror and my washing machine as it keeps shrinking my clothes so have to buy much larger in case of shrikage...
I am off to collect my daughter hope to see you later xxx
Lorraine
Well you did better than me by two then and at least your Husband won...
See you later xxx
Di
That is really funny x
Hellooo Sheila (Bianca)!
Another shrimp on the barbie? I hear herrings are the order of the day here :-) We have a pet mascot, dontcha know, called Opus; a most excellent, handsome Penguin, owned by a very clever, funny handler, ably assisted by Hopefortruth. Just so you know :-)
Meanwhile, I too think that it is unwise to state as fact things which have yet to be proven, although I think it is right that honest inquiry is served by the knowledge generously give for free by professionals on the world weird web - stuff we mere mortals are not suppose to see, let alone comment on.
IMO, the very serious offence of child neglect has been committed, and admitted by the McCanns, and 4 of their holiday friends. (NB: the Paynes did have a baby listening device).
According to the U.N., Britain has the unhappiest children in the Western world by measures of alcohol/drug abuse, suicide, teen pregnancies, clinical depression et.
I think that most UK parents take their responsibilities very seriously, but they are undermined by the significant minority who shout the loudest, and unleash their sad children into the world, inflicting misery on others.
Just my opinion. Child neglect of the kind defended by the McCanns as 'within the bounds of responsible parenting' is an evil to be fought 24/7.
Hiya Hope
I have done the oh the washing machine shrunk this dress since I last tried it on routine, but overall, I am an absolute realist and see what is there before my eyes.
The McCanns do not, they are completely lost in their own defensive little world and have an unhealthy belief in the ability of Clarence Mitchell as a PR spinner. He is good at factually reporting murder stories as we saw in the past, but he is no good at spinning them as we see right now. There again his clients have given him a very difficult task..
18.30 Lux.
Agreed.
Hiya Hope
I think when you have lived a lie for longing enough in a desperate bid to win public support and proclaim your innocence, little by little you would become more comfortable in that role, particularly as the pressure upon you seriously increases with the grilling of their friends..
Serious criminals are known to not have any shame. It has been suggested that shaming them may be a good way of addressing their offending behaviour. This has been carried to extremes with Americans making criminals wear placards. The McCanns are doing this to themselves..
Saturday, 5 April 2008 18:22:00 o'clock BST - [quoting Viv]
==============================================================================
But it seems weird that the McCanns would want public support so much if they were, in fact, serious criminals. Every serious criminal I have ever seen is cold and detached. They may evade police for a while but once they are caught, they usually fess up very quickly and sometimes even laugh in the court room. I have seen this SO many times, and have heard victims families say over and over again how "disgusted" they are because (said criminal) "sat in the docks and laughed" as the charges were read out. It's almost a cliche. (A notable but gruesome example is the parents of Australian rape and murder victim, Anita Cobby, who complained about this). Serious criminals don't seem to care what the public think of them or if the public feel any sympathy for them. They will laugh in people's faces or just not show any emotion at all. Certainly, they don't generally spend thousands of dollars on PR campaigns or try to "mislead" people by involving themselves in social or humanitarian causes.
I'm not saying the McCanns are nice people and let's all support their cause. (Their cause is great but they are the LAST people who should be campaigning for it!!). However, I find it hard to believe they are killers, even accidental killers. One of them would have cracked by now - had a nervous breakdown - or showed violent or inappropriate behaviour in some other way (IMO).
Bianca
I fully appreciate what you are saying, but if you think the McCanns are not even accidental killers, are you saying you support the abduction theory?
Bianca,
Speaking of defendants in court:
Con artists usually enjoy planting the truth amidst their lies; they are sociopaths; it's a little, warped game they play.
I think the McCanns and some of their friends are guilty of the very serious offence of child neglect, by any common understanding of UK law or custom.
Are they guilty of more than that? I wonder. I await future court cases with great interest.
Criminal court. Libel court. I have no doubt that the sad case of missing Madeleine Beth McCann will be heard in court, in due course.
Due course of honest inquiry, however long it takes, and wherever it leads.
Just my opinion.
Hiya Bianca
Those who have voluntarily agreed to back the McCanns would have no legal cause of action against them if they are found guilty of killing Madeleine. The law would say "they voluntarily assumed the risk and any attendant damage to their own reputations".
Branson and other businesses, backed out of providing any further support to the McCanns when they were named arguidos back in September. Justine McGuiness also immediately stepped down. Fund directors have also stepped down, no doubt fearing their reputations among other things. We have not heard any support from JK Rowling and Beckham since they were named Arguidos. This really speaks for itself.
The McCanns do what they are currently doing to achieve precisely the reaction you are demonstrating. I would think very carefully whether you are being manipulated, just as press campaigns intend people should be.
This case reinforces my belief that justice does not apply equally to all social classes and that what society adopts as the truth are the ideas that people fight hardest to promote as the truth. Like everyone else I don’t have access to the case file but based on the couple’s behaviour how can you not be suspicious. Why have they used their political and media connections to hamper the investigation from hour zero? Mr. McCann once stated to a TV reporter that he fully expected that his wife and himself would be viewed as suspects and that if the police didn’t investigate them they wouldn’t be doing a thorough job. He then added that he and his wife were prepared to answer all the investigator’s questions, yet when confronted by police they became silent and adopted the “Arguido” status giving them the legal right not to answer. I can understand going back to your country after all life has to go on and you have to earn a living, but why would you immediately hire a lawyer renowned for being successful in preventing extradition? Why would their primary concerns be hiring the best lawyers and PR firms in England and Portugal and taking part in documentaries? Why would they ridicule the Portuguese police yet praise Metedo 3 a collection agency with a criminal reputation? If they have so little regard for the PJ, then why does it matter to them if they are considered “Arguidos” by the PJ?
You can see the tactics being employed, any action or event that casts doubt on the couple’s innocence is counteracted, e.g. the PJ come to England to interrogate they go to address the European Parliament and of course the sightings. As a Portuguese Canadian having been born in Portugal what distresses me is how Portuguese politicians have sat back quietly and allowed the country to be disrespected. I suspect that the Portuguese and the English police and a few well-placed people in British society know exactly what happened to the child and I also suspect that the English police have not fully cooperated with the PJ. Because of this lack of cooperation and political pressure and probably a case based on a lot of circumstantial evidence, the judge reviewing the case may well decide not to prosecute.
Hi Di,
Well I DO support the abduction theory, but only by default. I know that there is no actual evidence of an abduction (other than Madeleine being, in fact, gone) but I just can't believe that they killed her, got rid of her body, all in a very short space of time, and then sat by the pool, went jogging, played tennis etc, all while waiting to see whether the police were going to spring them or not!
And now, they have come back to Britain, and are out campaigning for child safety causes, and again, drawing the world's attention to themselves, all the while knowing that they in fact killed their OWN child??
It just doesn't seem plausible!
I believe they are cold, selfish individuals that knew FULL WELL they were taking a risk leaving their tiny children on their own every night but left them anyway. That's why when Madeleine DID get abducted, they weren't that surprised .. "They've taken her"! Kate and Gerry always knew there was a risk one of the kids could be taken. I think they regularly sedated the children, which is why Madeleine was so easy to take and why the other children didn't wake up (also why they felt they didn't need a babysitter - what for? The kids would sleep right through). This, in itself, is a crime. However, I don't think they took Madeleine's life, and I don't think they hid her body.
P.S. The reason why (IMO) the McCanns and the Tapas group all act so strangely/evasively and have conflicting accounts of the night of May 3 is
a) Because they were probably all sedating their children and didn't want this to come out.
and
b) Because none of them EVER checked on the children and they feared being jailed for neglect/child abandonment (hence, all the mixed-up, pathetic stories about who got up from the table when, and how many times they "checked" the kids, etc! It was all crap - they never checked on the kids).
Guerra,
Excellent summary of some of the problems in this case, but the solution is bigger than the problem, imo.
I understand how you feel; really, I do.
Trust your home country, Guerra, and your new country. Western values are not dead yet :-)
Values matter more than short term circumstances, imho.
Boa noite, guerra. Truth will be told, in time. Patience, and perseverance are good traits, yes?
Leigh
Hi again Leigh,
I actually agree with you. Because although I'm pretty certain of my theory, I still await the outcome of it all with interest and understand that I could be proved wrong. Really, I don't know a thing about about these two (and I assume, most of on here don't), so all I've got is "theories" and little else. News stories, so-called "leaks", etc, are the extent of mine (or anybodies) knowledge on all of this. I just hope that the truth will come out sooner rather than later, and that justice will done for Madeleine who, no matter what, was let down by her "parents" in so many ways!
Guerra, the Portuguese police know what happened. proving it is a different matter.
Hello, everybody!
Hi again Bianca:
Yup, it will all take time, an patience; I agree with you. However, I do think it is important that honest citizens question what is served up before us in the media.
One useful tip, perhaps: always consider the source.
Who said what, and why? What do they have to gain by saying that?
I always consider the source, and I'm always impressed by honest inquiry which has nothing to gain, but asks the awkward questions anyway. Very impressive, that is, I think.
Chuck another shrimp on the barbie! Life's too short to be grim :-)
"The McCanns do what they are currently doing to achieve precisely the reaction you are demonstrating. I would think very carefully whether you are being manipulated, just as press campaigns intend people should be." - VIV
Well like I said Viv, this could be their ultimate "bluff". Just as I reasoned in an above post, they may WANT people to say: "But why would they go out campaigning, etc, if they really had something to hide??" etc, etc. I realise there's a chance that myself and others may be falling for the tactics. However, I still think it's a huge risk to take, especially for people who obviously want to try and secure public support/sympathy.
What you have explained about the legal stuff is very helpful, and thanks again. I really enjoy reading it. I did actually think of that .. that maybe any company that gets involved with McCanns are on a "buyer beware" type of basis. Obviously, they can't sue the McCanns then, even for loss of public reputation. Certainly though, the McCanns have lost much of THEIR reputation, now that the big names have felt the heat and fled the kitchen!
Bianca,
If you think that the Mccanns are just guily of leaving the children and there was an actual abductor, why do you think they do not want to answer the PJ questions, surely if they are not involved they have nothing to worry about? Just curious as most truly innocent parents would be there answering each and every question in a bid to find their daughter. Lizzy
Ola, Claudia!
Yes, knowledge is one thing; proof in a court of law is another.
Personally, I do think that both will unite in the sad case of Madeleine Beth McCann.
It is a matter of patience, perseverance, and time. I never doubt that. Never.
Portugal, our oldest ally, we must persist...and insist on this. We will :-)
This is more than one issue now.
Bianca
I dont believe the abduction theory but would like to (more if a kindly lonely lady took her than a sick twisted peadophile for obvious reasons)...
As for G&K he is arrogant and looks like a man who would walk over anyone to get what he wants and she looks weak. Whatever happend neither of them acted as you would expect someone to act in such a terrible situation from the begining it seemed to be about passing the buck about it being fine to leave them and lying about the distance etc
If there was an accident or worse and they had to save their career I guess a lot of planning had to be done and I should imagine Kate would have been devestated...
If she is missing or dead they did not look like grieving parents and the Panorama programe from last year I found Kates description of how she was gone very very strange...
If she has been taken why not answer questions that I cant get my head around then again I talk to much and would want to give every detail to get everything out in case it helped...
I guess no amount of speculation will help Madeleine or any other missing child :o(
xxx
Hi, Leigh.
Yes, it would be great. But not very likely.
But you never know.
xxxx
viv
You keep saying Richard Branson dropped the McC anns when they were made arguidos . This is quite untrue . Branson donated £100,000 to start a fighting fund to pay for teh McCanns defence . This was in sept after they had been made arguidos .
Ohhh one of my posts has vanished???
Viv I hope I did not get deleted for asking leigh and Bianca to provide a vegie burger on the BBQ not that I got an invite LOL xxxx
Heya Leigh,
You sound like someone who's had a formal education. I know at uni it was like a religion for us - must consider the source! And I agree - you've always got to look at any claim and then ask yourself "whose interests does it protect?", "who seeks to gain from this?". It's really the first step into any honest inquiry. Without this initial step, you'll basically always be going round in circles.
In the case of the McCanns however, I find considering the "source" a complicated and often incongruent task. It's hard to know who the source even IS, let alone what is motivating them or who seeks to gain (Is it the McCanns? Is it Clarence Mitchell? Is it the Portuguese newspapers? The English newspapers?). I'm sure the McCanns want us to believe they didn't kill their daughter, but why .. because they did and they fear going to jail? Because they DIDN'T and they fear going to jail? Because they want us to think well of them so that nobody ever looks into the sedation claims? Because they are just straight out sociopaths and have been planning all of this for years? To my mind, it's very hard to say without a consistently reliable source, however, like yourself I am awaiting the due process of the law, and hoping that it ultimately delivers justice in its most pristine form.
P.S. Can I be difficult and request sausages (bangers) instead of shrimps! :-)
Oh, Claudia.
It's only a matter of time. Have faith, chica, however long it takes.
Hiya Bianca
I am glad you found the legal explanation helpful.
Now utilising what I learned in my second career, probation officer, please see below. This does explain how serious offenders, such as domestic violence offenders, sex offenders, general violence, murder etc. use recognised techniques such as blatant denial (Dr Shipman) or minimisation (Ian Huntley. There is one thread that links such serious offenders, they suffer from serious personality disorder, such as psycopathy. They need to control a situation (Gerry McCann). This prevents them from having a victim perspective, they only have their own perspective and a complete lack of empathy. Thus they behave as the McCanns are currently behaving in a completely self serving way.
It is rather long but does explain serious offenders most certainly do not readily "fess up" to their offending as you suggest. They do the complete opposite including blaming the victim (consider Kate McCann..she cried for 18 hours a day, she shrieked for attention).
Characteristics of male domestic violence perpetrators
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Principles
Who uses violence towards...
The wider responsibilities of...
Work with perpetrators of...
Characteristics of male domestic...
Programme design
Process of working with...
Do perpetrator programmes work?
Multiple choice questions
References
The motivation and rationale of each domestic violence perpetrator is a complex interplay between power and gender on an individual, family, social, institutional and cultural level. Yet perpetrators attending the DVIP demonstrate a number of common factors (minimisation, denial of responsibility and a sense of entitlement – see below) that appear to be central to their abusive behaviour. These factors all have representations at a social and institutional level as well as within the individual perpetrator.
Minimisation
The perpetrator plays down or does not face up to (compartmentalises and ignores) aspects of his abusive behaviour, minimising its extent, frequency, seriousness, impact and consequences. Minimisation is encountered in the following forms.
Complete denial
The perpetrator denies the abuse entirely, saying that it did not happen.
Exclusion and inclusion (Hearn, 1995)
The perpetrator excludes from his account of his behaviour:
particular acts because they are not included in his internal definition of violence and abuse; most frequently this will mean omitting actions such as pushing, holding, blocking and throwing things;
sexual abuse or sexual violence, which perpetrators frequently view as different from domestic violence;
abusive behaviour directed towards children;
non-physical abusive behaviours, which he is unwilling to address.
He includes (acknowledges) only abuse that has become public, often through the criminal justice system.
Forgetting, blanking out and not knowing
The perpetrator begins his account of the violence with phrases like "It all happened a bit quick", "I can't really remember" or "I don't know what we were arguing about". This vagueness is most frequently an attempt to obscure his violence and its meaning both from himself and from others.
"It's not really me"
Here the perpetrator's image of someone who uses violent behaviour is of someone whose acts of violence are more life-threatening than his own acts. This form of denial presupposes that it is other people who behave abusively (and therefore need to seek help), but not himself. It is revealed in phrases such as "I'm not a violent person", "I'm not one of those wife beaters" and "Everyone's overreacting – it's not like I beat her up every week". A variation of this particular form of distancing occurs when men have recently left the relationship or attended a perpetrators' programme. Such men will often say "I used to be violent" or "before I came to DVIP I would have been violent, but now...".
Normalising (Trew, 1979)
He presents his violence as if it were of no great significance, using phrases such as "it was only" and reducing a set of violent actions to "we had a row".
Denial and minimisation of the impact of his behaviour on others (Dutton, 1995)
Often the perpetrator will objectify his partner, denying her humanity. This is undoubtedly a central process in domestic violence. He sees his partner as ugly or evil and thinks of her in terms of (often gendered) derogations such as a bitch, slag and cunt. This is part of a process that allows him to use violence by reducing his empathy for his partner. With many perpetrators this objectification constantly pervades their view of their partners.
Loss of partner empathy also occurs when the perpetrator's expectations of services (physical and emotional dependence) and narcissism are such that it becomes increasing difficult for him to see her as having experiences and needs separate from his own. For example, he cannot see that she called the police for her own protection rather than to punish him. If men in the early stages of the DVIP programme are asked to name one quality that their partner or ex-partner has which is not about her relationship to them, most find it difficult to reply. They struggle to see her beyond her role in relation to themselves and their home, and give responses such as "she stands by me", " she puts up with me", "she keeps the place tidy" and "she's a good mother".
Denial of the effects on children
Even when a perpetrator has systematically abused his children's mother for many years he may still claim that he is a good father, unable to see the hypocrisy in this statement.
In 90% of domestic assaults, children are in the same or next room (Hughes, 1992). Furthermore, we know that where domestic violence occurs there is an increased likelihood of child abuse in the same family (and vice versa) (Morley & Mullender, 1994b).
Owing to the taboos and consequences of disclosing direct physical and sexual abuse of children, perpetrators of domestic violence rarely talk about it. This means that this area must be discussed, regardless of whether such abuse is disclosed.
Denial of responsibility
The perpetrator denies control over his actions, placing control elsewhere, external to himself. The ways this is most commonly encountered are as follows.
Partner-blaming
The actions or inactions of the partner or victim are most frequently cited as the cause or provocation of the violence. This is heard in many different ways in perpetrator's accounts of their abusive behaviour: "She pushes me too far", "She winds me up", "She knows what I'm like", "If she didn't do x I wouldn't do y", "She goes on and on (nagging)".
Sometimes the violence may be presented as a last-ditch, regrettable step to protect the perpetrator from his partner's verbal or physical assault, but in fact it was either retaliation (punishment, not self-defence) or the silencing of his partner's criticism.
Attributing the reason for abusive behaviour to the woman can become entrenched in domestic violence perpetrators, to the point where remorse and culpability are extinguished. While the perpetrator continues to place responsibility for his behaviour with his partner, motivation to work for change within himself will remain low. Often, partner-blaming is linked to an exaggerated sense of entitlement and anger at her resistance to meeting his demands. He will want to talk about her behaviour and his feelings, and any useful intervention needs to reverse this focus to look his behaviour and her feelings.
Substance misuse
This is most commonly heard as "I'm alright when I haven't had a drink". It is undoubtedly true that drink and drugs affect people's perception and behaviour, otherwise there would little point in using them. However, their relationship to domestic violence is far from simplistically causal (McKenry et al, 1995).
Drink lowers inhibitions and can be a contributing factor to the severity of assaults, increasing the likelihood that a perpetrator will use greater force than he would if sober (e.g. a slap becomes a punch). Alcohol can also be a precursor to or a part of the act of abusing. Experiencing feelings of hostility and anger causes the perpetrator to start drinking, which becomes part of the build-up to an assault. Alcohol both provides a readily available excuse for denying responsibility and acts as a disinhibitor. The ritual of drinking before violence can be seen clearly in football-related violence, as well as in bars up and down the country. In perpetrators of domestic violence, alcohol and drugs are not themselves causal factors in their aggression. Perpetrators with substance misuse problems have two problems and both should treated in tandem.
Stress
Perpetrators usually start an account of their assault of their partner with words like "Well, I'd had a really difficult day at work" or "We've been having lots of money problems". This scene-setting of the pressure in the abuser's life is an attempt to make his actions understandable, given the circumstances. It presents a picture of the man as a pressure cooker that blows when the pressure reaches a certain point: this is both simplistic and mechanistically misleading. The question we must ask is what it is about this man's construction of his relationship with his partner that permits him to use abusive behaviour towards her when he feels himself to be under pressure. When looked at closely, the ‘excuse' of stress/pressure is either that he perceives her as its cause (partner-blaming) or as the person who should make him feel better (sense of entitlement).
Temporary or long-standing psychological disturbance
Temporary This is reflected in men's accounts of their violence as "I've always had a short fuse" and its many variations ("I just snapped", "saw red", "lost it", etc.). The perpetrator presents his violence as an overwhelming explosion of adrenaline and emotion, which is a commonly held understanding of violence and one that is frequently enmeshed with notions of provocation (partner-blaming). In this form of denial of responsibility the violent or abusive behaviour is seen as a ‘momentary insanity’, out of character and out of control. Yet examination of the actions of almost all perpetrators reveals control in the level and type of violence used and clear choices in where, to whom and in what circumstances it occurs.
Perpetrators of domestic violence find comfort in the momentary insanity explanation for their behaviour. It is more acceptable within constructions of masculinity to be seen as having a bit of a temper ("I don't put up with any shit") than to have a problem in relating respectfully to women. Theories of anger management and impulse control play into this and are therefore an inappropriate response to domestic violence perpetrators.
Long-standing Here the perpetrator presents his violence as rooted in his experience of abuse in childhood and not related to his current construction of his relationship with his partner. It is true that domestic violence is learned and that one powerful site of learning will have been the man's own family of origin. Many of the men attending DVIP have experienced or witnessed domestic violence as children. But so have many of the staff team and most of the project's women clients. It is certainly true that experiencing abuse is damaging, and the more severe and frequent the abuse the greater the likelihood of future psychological disturbance. However, the link between experiencing abuse (including witnessing violence between parents) as a child and using abusive behaviours towards a partner as an adult is far from clear. Theories about cycles of abuse with domestic violence perpetrators are again simplistic and unhelpful in designing perpetrator programmes.
Some perpetrators of domestic violence will have experienced severe abuse during their childhood that was frequent and damaging of their self-esteem and ability to develop intimate relationships in later life. Often these men have long-term substance misuse problems and a history of criminal activity and violent assaults, both within and outside of close relationships (Saunders, 1993). They present as low in minimisation, empathy and remorse, and require a high level of risk management control. Fortunately, they are just a small percentage of the population of domestic violence perpetrators.
The vast majority of perpetrators do not fall into this subgroup, although they frequently perceive themselves as victims and view their abusive behaviour as a response to their own ‘persecution’. Their wish to explore their experience of being ‘wronged’ is a mechanism to avoid seeing their own abusive behaviour for what it is and to shift responsibility for that behaviour.
If the perpetrator has experienced abuse himself, it is useful briefly to explore the impact of this on him in order to draw parallels between this and the experience of those whom he abuses. More in-depth discussion of his experience of abuse should be avoided, otherwise there is a danger of playing into his sense of victimhood. When all physical violence has stopped for some time (1 year) and other abusive behaviours have reduced dramatically, it might be approprate then for the client to address how his experience of abuse has affected his responses in intimate relationships.
Denial of responsibility for consequences for his behaviour
Here the perpetrator blames others when he experiences consequences of his abusive behaviour. This is a variation of partner-blaming that extends to others who challenge his behaviour, including the police, courts, social services and, frequently, his partner's family (for siding against him or never having liked him).
Sense of entitlement (masculinity)
Violence and other abusive behaviours are used to control. Domestic violence perpetrators use abusive behaviour to support their sense of entitlement by:
punishing the woman for something she has done wrong ("teaching her a lesson")
forcing her to do something she does not want to do (e.g. "shut up")
stopping her from doing something she wishes to do (e.g. leave the relationship).
This is establishing the power to set the further rules of the relationship (e.g. he can drink, spend money, come and go as he pleases without criticism). Through this the perpetrator also obtains services from his partner (e.g. sex, housework, emotional care) and restricts her movements and autonomy. These expectations are deeply enmeshed with gender and identity, with what it means to be a man and, in particular, a man in a relationship with a woman.
Despite the fact that the perpetrator knows that his violence is wrong, this sense that entitlement is bound up with received ideas about gender identity allows him to see his behaviour as ‘reasonable’ given his partner's ‘unreasonable’ resistance to his expectations. This further fuels the process of partner-blaming.
There is a danger here that we see domestic violence perpetrators as caricature sexist males. Every man I have worked with has had a unique combination of expectations of his partner. Many perpetrators are socially skilled and present as wanting only what is best (in their own estimation) for themselves and their partner. However, all perpetrators use abusive behaviour to enforce the ‘rightness’ of their position.
TSK Bianca!
Bangers and mash? That's not how I think of Ozzies! You've spoilt my illusion now.
Hey ho. Bangers it is, then :-)
As for the source, perhaps it is best if we look at the discrepancies in certain statements if the 'source' is unreliable.
IE: what's missing from this picture? What is contradictory, inconsistent? What doesn't add up?
One fact: Madeleine Beth McCann, aged 3, was left alone in a foreign apartment with her baby brother and sister, night after night whilst her parents were at the Tapas bar with friends.
Now is that the behaviour of any parent you ever met? Common sense can sometimes be more illuminating than commonly used sophisticated laws and public relations, imo.
Why would two educated doctors do that? Did they do that? Did they just leave three infants to fall asleep naturally, right on time, every night?
What is missing from this picture? That is worth a much closer look, in my opinion.
We must trust the evidence of our own thinking and feeling in this 21st Century, imo. No one owns our minds.
I do have faith, Leigh.
xxxx
I do believe that once the abduction scenario was adopted from day one that was the only scenario that was going to be used, even though Madeline could have wandered off and fallen down a hole or something etc. The McCanns have stuck to the abduction theory to this day, and everything they do is to supplement that theory, ie do not change direction once the strategy has been decided, like a game plan. thats exactly how it has played so far IMO.
Lizzy/Hope4Truth,
You both raise excellent points (that have of course been raised before and that I have personally considered many times). Hope - I agree, the Panorama interview WAS weird, and like I said on this blog once before, I thought Gerry and Kate used the term "predator" like most people would say "painter" or "postman". It was very cold, very detached, and there seemed to be no horror or recoil at saying it. All I can think of is that these are very cold people who simply don't live their lives with the depth of emotion that most of the rest of us do.
As far as why they won't answer the police questions, it certainly looks suspicious (including to me), but I tend to think what they are avoiding is evidence of them serially sedating the children. They have already denied claims that they used drugs on the children, and if it comes out that this was a lie, Gerry's career is definitely over and so is the chance of any future child-protection campaigning. I think it's possible that THIS is in fact what's behind it all, but like I keep saying, I'm open to the possibility that I may be wrong (i.e., that they may have killed Madeleine)!
Hi Leigh ,
I think we have to be very careful with a police force who "know" is guilty but do not have the evidence . Colin Stagg springs to mind . the british police spent a great deal of time and money trying to prove he was guilty . Then we have the B'ham 6 and theGuildfiord 4 .
I believe like the uk police in these cases the pj have got it wrong . Time will tell .
Have to go , one of my little ones wants the computer .
Dear Mark,
Yes, I agree. Great care is needed now. However, I disagree that '...the uk police in these cases the pj have got it wrong...', as you suggest.
I do agree with you that 'time will tell'. We await the truth of time...
Nice to see you.
Bianca
Sometimes the way they behave and CM spins I seriously think to myself they cant be guilty as this is making them look so much worse and surley they would have been wailing just to get sympathy not off jogging...
Someone posted on the DX (cant remeber who but I know I liked them)that the reason they did not leave PDL for a long time was because they did not know when it would be right to do so (ie as they were acting out the theory that she was missing how long would you stay) that made me think.
I know when I had a part time job when at college and I called in sick (once or twice ish or maybe 3 times???) when I went back I felt so guilty and would really over do how I had felt or was still feeling (trying to get the oh poor you, you look terrible and you struggled back sympathy vote)....
My Nan told me on one of these occasions it would have been better to go to work as I was doing myself no favors by lying.. She then told me she overslept once for work got up and ran all the way there and instead of saying to her boss what had happend (they got on well) she said she was not feeling well and then all day her boss and his wife were telling her to go home as she looked dreadful (she had no time for make up that morning) and when she got home she was supposed to be going out with my Granddad but could not go as her boss and wife would be there and she was supposed to be sick...
The moral is if you lie you miss out (she was a lovely lady)...
Sorry gone on a bit point I was trying to make is if you lie you dont know how you should be acting...
xxx
Lux,
I hope you don't me saying this, but I think Mark will appreciate your comment, as do I.
When politics interferes with due process of law, it's anybody's guess what will happen next.
In the Colin Stagg case the Police used a woman (WPC) to befriend Stagg and suggest to him certain things to try and get him to admit to her that he did it. I to this day applaud the brave Judge who had the courage to throw the whole case out and castigated the Police. A man has since been charged with the murder of the victim (Rachel Nickell). If that Judge had not acted then there would have been an enormous miscarriage of justice. No Police force is above wrongdoing.
Viv,
Am I to understand then that you think that Kate and Gerry have had a history of violence in some way? Only because most "offenders" have some kind of history. Has there ever been any reports of Gerry beating Kate (or the other way around?). What about of one (or both) of them abusing the children (even verbally)?
By the way, I'm not saying that they DON'T have a history, but wondering if you think they do(??) The overview that you presented above seems to be about ongoing or repeated offenders where patterns of behaviour are pre-established; not about people who are relatively normal (and I say "relatively") but then all of a sudden find themselves in a bizarre situation. The McCanns, I would have thought, fall into the latter category, but if you know differently (i.e., if you think they had pre-established personality or domestic problems) then I'd be interested to hear it.
Sadly, reading that overview, there are people I have known in my life that come very close to some of the descriptions. However, everyone I have known like this is a repeat offender, with behaviour that you could often predict down to exact phrases (i.e., "she needs to learn" is a horrible phrase used over and over again by one of my friends abusive boyfriends years ago!). I've hardly ever seen a family or a couple where everyone is basically normal (or APPEARS normal, with absolutely no cracks) and then all of a sudden abuse or violence occurs seemingly out of nowhere. These things, as the article you posted seems to suggest, almost always run to some kind of pattern.
Hopefortruth:
Your Nan taught you well, I think. Perfection is an illusion. Reality, humbly experienced, is a very great lesson for us all.
Oh to be an imperfect human - that's perfection, imo :-) Life's a team effort.
May children always benefit from that, I hope for that truth too !
x
leigh
Hi Joe.
I agree with what you have written.
Must incinerate a late dinner now.
If there is no white and black in life, only grey, then my cooking proves that wrong! My cooking is either fab or ... burnt :-)
See you next time.
leigh
Leigh
Perfection is an illusion I agree with that (especialy when the girls are yelling at each other) Being an only child I will never understand how they can hate each other with a passion one minute and be cuddled up together watching a film a few minutes later.
When they shout at each other I shout OH FOR GODS SAKE WHAT NOW??? It is one of the only times that I yell but it drives me nuts (and I am the one in the wrong then for shouting???)...
Oh does that prove I am not a perfect parent???
xxx
How odd, Viv that you spoke about Belgium in one of your comments.
Of course, you know that Belgium is home to the infamous Marc Dutroux. He managed to abduct and rape more than one child. After Marc Dutroux' case came to light, the Belgium people took to the streets against their police force and government officials.
Do I think the Amber Alert could have saved these children? Probably not, but it certainly could not hurt.
Hi Hope,
Boy, your poor grandma got herself into a bit of a pickle! LOL I think we've all been there.
But yes, if a person's lying, then generally, their behaviour will be odd, because like you say, they are not being informed by real emotions appropriate to the situation but contrived ideas based on how they THINK they should behave. And this could well explain why the McCanns seem so inappropriate when discussing Madeleine. (i.e, it could be that they know they drugged her; it could be that they know they killed her; it could be both; or it could just be because they know they consistently left the children on their own .. but whichever way .. they know they have not behaved like truly loving, decent parents, and so can only contrive or IMAGINE how such parents would behave, hence, why they come across so phoney!)
Thank you Leigh3, I hope your dinner turned out ok.
Hiya Bianca
I have made no secret of the fact that I think this is a family with an awful lot of problems as a read of many of the pages on this blog will make clear.
I do not share your view that Kate and Gerry McCann are "normal".
For a start off what normal doctors who love their children would take them on holiday and then proceed to dump them day and night? This does not present to me as a normal family unit where children are included in that family. It presents as a couple of very selfish and cruel adults who had no concern for what might be happening to their children with complete strangers caring for them all day, and no one at all at night. Pamela Fenn reported that Madeleine was crying pitifully Daddy, Daddy whilst left alone, but they went and did it again, Normal?
I have posted pictures of extensive bruising on Kate McCann, a severe bruise right on the tip of her elbow, several grab marks to the same arm, bruising near her clavicle and an obvious split above her eye. These injuries typically suggest domestic violence, most particularly the grab marks. When taken in context with reports of her shouting loud and out of control, late at night, it really does not take a lot of working out.
I have also posted pictures of Kate and Gerry McCann several years ago, with shiny red noses.faces etc and a table full of alcohol. We know that on this holiday they drank extremely heavily whilst leaving their children completely alone, tiny children. If UK if this combination of behaviour had been brought to the attention of SSD there would be serious child protection concerns, particularly in context of Kate shouting late at night and the children becoming involved in such drunken disharmony.
Ever since Madeleine disappeared they have demonstrated a complete lack of empathy for Madeleine or her apparent plight. They would engage in behaviours like inane blogging, jogging and globetrotting because they lack empathy and just would not have perceived how other people view this behaviour.
Please do not try and tell me they are "normal".
Hope, you gave an interesting explanation ,sustain a lie for long time and with everyone looking for them is hard. IMO they choose to make a circus and such an extreme behaviour exactly to make peolple think" if they was leying they will not expose themselves in this way.."
Goodnight guys. It's almost 7 in the morning here, and I've been on for about 5 hours now (on and off), so I think it's time I called it a night (day?) !!
Thanks again for a great blog Viv and providing some genuinely interesting food for thought.
Take care all - I may come on at midnight (my time) again in the next couple of days or so (LOL).
Bianca xx
Hi Viv and all,
Thank's for your article. It's so good to read some articles again.
This one is from 17 june 2007.
I find it very unnatural that Kate decided to stop working as a GP only six weeks after Madeleine disappeared
to campaign against child trafficking and raise awareness about missing children.
Who does Kate think she is to tell other people about missing children. A mother who left her children night after night alone to go out with friends wants to tell people in Europe about child's safety.
If my daughter was missing I wouldn't be busy planning my career. But it was back in june, when they had public support and before she was made an arguida.
Maybe the meeting in Brussels was planned before they were made arguidos.
I don't think they are looking forward to this meeting. Because they don't have much public support. And they know what the public think of them. So it must be very scary next thursday.
Kate might be sick on thursday!
Hiya Bianca
I am glad you found the stuff posted food for thought. It kind of opens your eyes and explains their behaviour, I think, although such bizarre behaviour IMO is not easily explained!
Someone said to me not long ago, but how could they have killed Madeleine and then gone and sat at that restaurant all night, like nothing happened? I calmly replied what else could they have done, phoned the police and told all? That was not a course they chose to adopt. Killers have to continue their normal routine, or attract suspicion, their normal routine of being abusive and neglectful parents suited them very well x
Luv Viv x
Hiya Atardi
We have had many reports of how Kate is a private person, a shy person and hates to be in the spotlight. In October, she rebelled and did not contribute to the Vanity Fair interview.
But, in the main, Kate is controlled by Gerry McCann and does as she is told. He will have told her she is going to Brussels, but I agree, she is probably dreading it.
Viv,
No, I didn't say they were "normal" by everyday, common sense standards. Hopefully, I have well and truly demonstrated to you and others by now that I find their behaviour outrageous, and not at all "normal". However, there is a difference between what ordinary, everyday folks such as myself consider abnormal, and what the police, medical profession, or social services consider abnormal. For example, my friend that I mentioned with the abusive boyfriend ended up in hospital with a broken arm. She had to see a psychiatrist, and so did her boyfriend. Her parents were worried about her, I was worried about her, and our other friends were worried about her. As you can see, many different people, including doctors, knew about her situation and were concerned about it. Furthermore, the doctors (both physical and psychiatric) acknowledged that she was in a domestic abuse situation. So it wasn't just friends or family saying they thought "this was a bit odd" or "that was a bit odd" - it was something that had become, if you like, a professionally recognised problem. And all I was saying about the McCanns is that I wonder if anybody - neighbours, friends, etc, ever heard arguing or screaming or anything and felt cause to bring in the police? Or did a doctor ever look at one of Kate's bruises and ask about it? Or did any of Gerry's patients every complain that he displayed inappropriate behaviour and have him officially reported? What I'm saying is, is that these are the types of things that establish problem families or domestic violence - not just the odd strange thing here and there that someone may notice, but ongoing things and things that point to a pattern or history of behaviour. It's one thing to have things recognised anecdotally by lay people, but another when it gets to the point that it's brought to the attention of professionals. Obviously now Kate and Gerry's behaviour has been brought to the attention of professionals, but as you say, you think they are a "problem" family with a history, and I was just wondering if you had any way of demonstrating that, above and beyond your own personal observations?
Bianca
Night speak soon xxx
I am trying to download I tunes on my daughters PC and am far to tired to be doing it (going to cry in a minute how mature LOL)...
See you all in a bit xxx
P.S. Viv, I'm sure you'll have a great answer, but I really have to go now! LOL
Will read it tomorrow.
Take care,
Bianca xx
Hiya Bianca
I speak with the benefit of professional training, it is not just a personal opinion, it is one informed by having worked with so many problem families and offenders over more years than I choose to recall.
Night Hope,
Don't worry, those i tunes are notoriously annoying, awkward things to deal with! If I were you, I'd have one big cry now to get it out of your system for all the other times it's going to frustrate the heck out of you! LOL
Catch you later xx
Viv
Being a probation officer must be very hard especialy if you have people who have comitted really terible crimes and you know they wont change...
A worthwhile job though xxx
Bianca
I have given up in I Tunes now got it loaded and trying to log in and it wants CC details she has £30 of vouchers left over from Christmas and a load of CDs to download onto her IPod Grrrr...
I have given up until the morning or the PC would now be flying out the window xxx
Viv,
You obviously have experience in the field and maybe if you'd known the McCanns personally, you would have inquired into their home-life and gotten to the bottom of it all. Who knows, you may have even helped to avert the Madeleine disaster?
However, the only point I was making is that it appears nobody else felt cause to report them or inquire into their home lives, which means that they were not a "problem" family or a family with a "history", officially speaking. We can look at them (even you, with your experience) and say they seem like a problem family to us, but then again, it's very hard to say as we only see disjointed glimpses of them in the media, so it's really hard to get a congruent picture or establish any kind of pattern of behaviour. For all we know, their behaviour at PDL may have been a one-off in flagrant slackness. I doubt it, but it could have been.
Hiya Hope
I am no longer practising as a probation officer but when I did calmly accepted there are serious offenders who you cannot change and they go to prison to properly protect the public from them. There they can undertake rehabilitative courses to try and address their offending and work with psychologists but those with serious personality disorder are notoriously difficult to change. Most developed their personality during a bizarre childhood and once they get to about 18 years it is too late to change their personality style. This is why the Youth Offending Team in UK work so hard with youngsters from problem families trying to nip the behaviour in the bud, before it becomes and enduring feature of their makeup and personality style.
In removing Shannon from Craig Meehan and family this is a case in point. Her mom made disastrous choices on her behalf. Maybe she will get Shannon back but she will have to make better choices in future. Maybe Shannon's welfare though would prevent that from happening. We will have to wait and see.
Hope,
Yes, probably better to sleep on it I think! I generally don't even go near those sorts of things unless I absolutely have to! Give me a good old fashioned record player any day (and I DO mean records, not CD's! LOL).
:-)
Hiya Bianca
The way that authorities normally start to find out about child abuse is when the children go to school, when the wife reports domestic violence to the police or when the neighbours make a report to social services or police.
In middle class families like the McCanns the authorities quite often will have no prior record because there has been no way they could find out, but it is just the same with working class families, there are thousands of children suffering where the authorities just do not know particularly where the children are pre-school.
I think you have to ask the question why are Kate and Gerry like they are and what was their own upbringing like. This is what UK police will have been doing. Several months ago it was reported they were conducting extensive background checks upon them.
Hello Joe,
S.O.C.A. deals with organised crime, within the U.K., and across national boundaries. Fraud is trans-national.
I have always believed that this case would test convention in many ways.
We'll see...
Must serve burnt offerings now. See you next time.
Viv
It must have had highs and lows a very worthwhile job..
Your point about choices hit's the nail on the head if we all make the best choices for our children and put their needs first there will be a lot more happy children in the world.
Teachers have lost the power to keep a class under control for fear of being accused of picking on children and parents need to learn to listen to their children and teach them right from wrong we would all be better off...
xxx
"Several months ago it was reported they were conducting extensive background checks upon them." - VIV
Had no idea about this. Should be interesting.
Oops! Sorry, Lux. It was you who wrote about S.O.C.A., so my post to Joe should go to you.
Organised crime. That's what S.O.C.A. investigate. Somewhat worrying for the Tapas 7 + ...
Money laundering is also a specific task of S.O.C.A. investigators.
Must serve burnt dinner to starving people now!
Lux
I would not wish to speculate on whether agents from the Serious Organised Crime Agency will be present during police interviews, particularly when it has only been reported on another blog. This clearly does not make it a fact.
However, there are aspects of the McCanns conduct that would certainly tend to suggest that since the demise of Madeleine there has been serious and organised crime and we have heard of Interpol investigating "sightings" etc. Clearly if they did kill Madeleine, it was very serious fraud to collect money from the public, ostensibly to find her and likewise to extract money from the Daily Express etc. The conduct of Metodo 3, on their behalf has always been seriously suspect and certainly appears to be an attempt to pervert the course of justice. One of their number has after all been remanded for smuggling millions of pounds worth of cocaine and their has been admissions of witnesses being paid. They have also harassed completely innocent people e.g. Murat and the Moroccan family.
Zodiac,
Thank you for your kind words. It brought tears in my eyes.
I'll print your post and keep it with me. So I can read it again when I'm confronted with difficult situations.
Hope you will enjoy your weekend.
Hiya Bianca
It is standard practice to do detailed background checks on serious homicide suspects. In Huntley's case this revealed the characteristic build of offending behaviour where it becomes ever more serious over time and that proper records were not kept on these clear red flags of a very dangerous man even enabling him to go and work at a school, a job such an offender would always seek out.
In Shipmans case it revealed a lifetime of serious substance misuse and a very seriously disturbed personality particularly since the death of his mother when he was 17.
Good evening Hope4truth and Leigh3 also.
Trying to read back posts. But it's too much to read.
Gina had a very good one to Daisy.
Hope,
Are you really on a diet or is it a joke?
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