21 Mar 2009

KATE DEMANDS TWINS CHECKED FOR SEDATIVE - 3 MONTHS LATER!!

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id174.html

The McCanns curious behaviour, as witnessed by Inspector Ricardo Paiva, 03 September 2007

The McCanns curious behaviour as witnessed by Inspector Ricardo Paiva PJ Police Files

To: Coordinator of Criminal Investigation, Lic. Gonçalo Amaral

From: Ricardo Paiva, Inspector

Subject: Disappearance of Madeleine McCann
____________________________________________________

[summary]

- As the intermediary between Kate and Gerry McCann and the Police, Inspector Ricardo Paiva made several personal contacts with them.

- In that context he witnessed several "strange" behaviours of the couple that, according to his report, grew increasingly more negative in their reactions towards the activities of the police investigation, in particular after the use of British cadaver dogs.

- On several occasions the McCann couple said that the attention of the Police should remain focused on the hypothesis of abduction, that in their opinion that was the only scenario that had occurred. Also the Police shouldn't forget to keep investigating the suspect Robert Murat.


- Ricardo Paiva considered very strange that, on several occasions, more than 3 months after the disappearance of Madeleine, Kate McCann requested that the Police performed analysis to the blood, hair and nails of the twin siblings of Madeleine. According to her, she had remembered that on the day of the disappearance of Madeleine, despite all the noise and confusion made by the authorities and other persons that were looking for Madeleine in the
apartment 5A of the Ocean Club, the twins never woke up, having been transported to another apartment. She now assumed that they were under the influence of any sedative, that an abductor could have administered to the 3 children in order to abduct Madeleine. She said that according to what she read in a criminal investigation manual that the British police provided for them, that was the usual procedure in cases of kidnapping, sexual abuse and homicide.

- "Today" (03/09/07), when Ricardo Paiva went to their residence to notify them to be present at the police headquarters to make a deposition, accompanied by their lawyer, if they wished, Kate McCann immediately reacted negatively, making comments like "what will my parents think" and "what will the press say when they find out" and that the "Portuguese police are suffering pressure from the Government to end the investigation immediately".

- Gerald McCann on the other hand, insisted constantly on delivering to Ricardo Paiva, letters and e-mails that he received and selected, most of them from psychics and mediums, and that in general held no credible information about the whereabouts of Madeleine and of her alleged abductor.

- More recently, even before Kate McCann was questioned, in a phone contact between Gerry Mccann and Ricardo Paiva, when referring to the investigation, Gerry stated that he was certain that the Police didn't have any proof that might incriminate them on the death of Madeleine McCann, and added that the police were wasting their time directing the investigation toward the parents.

*

Note: The speed of hair growth is roughly 1.25 centimeters or 0.5 inches per month, being about 15 centimetres or 6 inches per year. With age, the speed of hair growth might slow down to as little as 0.25 cm or 0.1 inch a month. People lose about 100 hairs per day, hair grows faster in the summer than it does in the winter. It also grows faster for kids than it does for adults. (source: hairfinder.com)

Gerry records the following in his blog, of 26 May 2007: 'Some of you may have noticed that Sean and Amelie did manage to squeeze in a hair cut!' It is quite possible that, at that time, at least 1 centimetre was cut off.

32 comments:

viv said...

I think it is very interesting here the way Kate and Gerry are clearly pulling in two different directions.

She wants the investigation to continue and she wants the twins dope tested. She herself is mentioning the prospect of kidnapping and sexual abuse, as well as homicide. She is suggesting that British Police gave them a manual which is frankly extraordinary. She is worried what both the press and her parents may say about them.

Gerry on the other hand is stating that he is CERTAIN the police do not have any evidence they killed Madeleine. He is also trying to refer them to ridiculous claims from mediums and psychics which clearly Rosiepops used to very much advocate.

I think the only way Gerry could be so certain there was no evidence of them killing Madeleine is because they didn't. What Kate is saying clearly raises the prospects of the children being drugged for abuse which is obviously worrying her and she herself is raising the issue of sexual abuse. She is wanting to stress why should I suffer all this humiliation and confrontation even from my own parents. One of her police statements has not been revealed in the PJ file we have seen. I think she was trying to tell the police something in her own way and it is very interesting that even at this stage, they were NOT singing from the same hymn sheet. Kate seems to want to dwell more in the world of reality and keep matters out of the press. Gerry wants to talk about the world of clear fantasy and expressing no concerns about his "media circus" which he could not help but look so pleased about when recently interviewed by Jeremy Paxman.

ratonthebeam said...

Viv, I bet Gerry now bitterly regrets keeping that blog. It is odd that he hasn't added to it for months now. Has it perhaps outlived it's usefulness? Or does he no longer wish to be filed in the "Nutters" box with all the other bloggers and forum posters? Perhaps the penny has finally dropped that you cannot have it both ways!

Regards to all here, hope you are all well and happy xx

Di said...

Hi Viv

I remember on the night of the so called abduction, the PJ wanted the twins to be checked out in hospital for possible sedation but Kate refused. Funny how three months down the line she wanted them checked for sedatives, Gerry also mentioned the twins were probably sedated. I believe the McCanns had the twins hair sent off for analysis when they arrived back in Britain which was quite extraordinary, and of course we got the usual Clarrie statement to say Kate had not sedated the twins etc.,

Regarding the police giving the McCanns a copy of their manual, when I heard about it at the time I just could not believe it. Could the manual have been handed over by the mole who was feeding information to the McCanns constantly, keeping them one step ahead?

Hi Rat

Soooo good to see your avatar again an I hope you are well also. xx

nancy said...

Hi Viv -

Gerry is certain they didn't kill Madeleine! Strange thing to come out with. It's as if he really has doubts about it!

They are as sure as damn it responsible for her disappearance, as much as they'd like to say it wasn't their fault but the fault of whoever took her, and they were so sorry they weren't there when she was TAKEN!

Shameless couple and I have no sympathy for either of them.
-----------------------------------

Hi Rat - good to see you!

Gerry blogs but others mustn't according to him.

He obviously thinks along the lines of - "don't do as I do but do as I tell you"!

The same as he just wants the media to print stuff that he likes but woe betide any of them if they come up with anything near criticism of what he and his vile bunch did!
-----------------------------------

Hi Di -

So why would Kate refuse to have the children checked out for sedatives in Portugal when it was she who put the idea around that the abductor may have sedated them in the first place! That makes no sense at all. Of course she had the twins hair cut prior to sending samples off to the laboratories in the UK!

Have a good Mum's Day everyone!



Nx

Di said...

Hi Nancy

I would imagine several haircuts prior to the test. As Doctors they would be fully aware of how long it takes for the signs of sedatives to leave the hair. As you said why was Kate putting her fingers to the twins nose to test for breathing.

IMO Kate knows much more than she is saying.

Di said...

Spring is in the air so thought I would chang my profile.

Di said...

Chang LOL

bath theory said...

Of course whether you have 'killed' someone or not depends on how you define 'kill' I find the dictionary definition to be perfectly fine as regards this.

bath theory said...

Note further Arsenal resugence Di !!

viv said...

Ratty!!!

How lovely to see you back, we have all missed you!!

I think Gerry was happy to keep posting on his blog when he was busily selling the Kate and Gerry show and quite certain he was so clever he could just keep doing this.

I believe that from September 2007 his confidence in his ability to con and deceive have been sapped bit by bit. From about October last year, I think he knows the game is up, it is only a question of time IMO. He is not fooling the police, he was stupid enough to believe that he could and make a fortune in the process.

I also believe that Kate is once again pulling in a different direction. It is probably called self preservation!

Sometimes, I think, when you are trying to make sense of a complex story and you know people are lying, you have to believe that some of it is true. Every skilled liar will know that if everything you say is a lie, you are never going to be believed.

So, you have to look at these two and think which one was immediately play acting and which one was behaving in a genuinely shocked way and what was that person saying and doing. From what we hear Gerry was throwing himself on the floor outside the flat and throwing himself down onto his knees and loudly shouting just as he approached the PJ. He was the one who handled the police and handed photographs over. But from what many witnesses say Kate seemed far more genuinely shocked but just far too shocked for one whose child had just gone missing and may have just wandered off. She was wailing they have taken her repeatedly even after the PJ arrived she sat stricken on her bed, still repeating this. She was also wailing we have let her down. Later according to Fiona Payne she sat for 30 minutes and would not put the twins down, one sat on her lap and one on Fiona's. When she did she kept checking to make sure they were still breathing.

IMO Kate knows who took Maddie or has a very good idea, but she is not the one who arranged it and actually handed her over. People say Gerry did not have time to rush down to the beach and hide Madeleine's body, but he did have time to rush down to the beach and just hand her over to someone on a small craft and he is a former champion runner who was clearly getting plenty of practice in, in PDL. People say well how could it have been him, there was no corpse smell on him, he did not carry a corpse IMO, he carried a drugged little girl that he was getting rid of and from whose so called abduction by a stranger, he planned to make a fortune from and get the fame and adulation he has always dreamed of.

I think it is probably too late for Kate to try and pull the other way, she long since missed her chance.

viv said...

Di/Nancy/Bt

Of course Kate knows what happened to Maddie and she did nothing to save her or tell the police the truth. There can be no real excuse for this.

But the one who is a hundred times worse, who has repeatedly told us in person and via his team of sick bloggers that Maddie is being abused as a little Maid in Morocco, the one that created the media circus, the one that got his vile sister Philomena to tell the world the police believed Kate killed Maddie, the one who just wanted to cash in and make a fortune from the most terrible thing that he did, Gerry McCann. I just hope they lock him up for good and I have a feeling that they will.

Justice for Maddie and all abused little Children xx

viv said...

This article below is interesting.

Particularly: (So actually the Independent were clearly telling us within days the police were subjecting Gerry to some pretty gruelling sessions, there is only one reason the police do this, particularly keeping them separate as stated here) I still marvel sometimes when people say our press were so nice to them, only superficially! It seems to me that Kate and Gerry were subjected to far more grilling than we know about from the release of just one third of the PJ file. This is why it is a big mistake to write a book and send it to MPS to ahem, "educate" them, like you know it all, you could make such a fool of yourself doing that and how bloody patronising, does he really think they are that stupid!

"That statement came seven hours after he had completed a 14-hour session in a police station, separated some of the time from his wife as they were interviewed apart - no minor ordeal for a father whose daughter is missing."



Branson clearly became involved in the very early stages helping to swell the reward money to £2.6M, but can anyone remember, just once, Gerry or Kate ever refer to that reward ? It is almost like they feared her being found!

Maybe we did not notice so much at the time, but we do now, all that press plugging was coming from Gerry:

The momentum of the appeal, in the face of Portuguese detectives' refusal to discuss the case or issue public pleas for help, is a product of Madeleine's father's steadfast determination to keep her face in the public eye. Gerry McCann is understood to have told one colleague in Britain this week: "We must keep the media interested and keep the momentum going".
and another one with the twins even carrying balloons for the stage managed press walk by:

But Mr McCann did not leave before asking Alex Woolfall, the de facto spokesman for the couple and Mark Warner Ocean, to make yet another appeal. "Keep looking, keep praying and let us bring Madeleine home," read the statement from the McCanns, delivered in time for the main TV breakfast bulletins. They arrived back at their apartment at exactly 4pm. Two-year-old Amelie was carrying a red balloon, while her brother Sean was holding a green one.


Mr McCann's use of the media, which has included deliberate walks with his wife to take Madeleine's twin siblings to a crèche and the piecemeal release of images - from Madeleine's pyjamas to the child in her Everton top - has drawn on every ounce of the couple's strength. What few reserves Kate McCann had left drained away as she was supported, utterly desolate, into the local Church of the Lady of the Light on Thursday. It was her husband who guided her into a vigil at the church last night and who voiced their thanks when, in a immeasurably moving moment, they were clapped out by a congregation of 300.


THIS IS ALSO VERY INTERESTING saying that Maddie had evidently walked to another couple's room who were interviewed as witnesses and he scent picked up repeatedly. Stevo on 3 As pointed out to me that if she was being carried, as on the night of 3 May she would not leave her scent like she would when herself walking along rather than being carried. I wonder what happened to those reports of her running off and hiding for half an hour, I bet like everything else it is true but a lot is being held back, I am convinced with a trial in mind.

"According to reports in Portugal, nine English people have now been interviewed, as witnesses, not as suspects. Three of these were reportedly resident at the Ocean resort, including a couple whose room Madeleine had evidently walked to from her parents' room. Police sniffer dogs have repeatedly picked up her scent."




FULL ARTICLE

£2.6m: the reward for finding little Madeleine

On the fourth birthday of Madeleine McCann, missing now for 10 days, Richard Branson and other business moguls have backed an unprecendented public appeal for her return

By Ian Herbert in Praia da Luz

Sunday, 13 May 2007




The extraordinary public response to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann intensified yesterday as the rewards for information leading to her return increased to £2.6m, a sum believed to be unprecedented in a criminal case.

A group of business figures including Sir Richard Branson and Sir Philip Green and West End theatre impresario Bill Kenwright - chairman of Madeleine's favourite Everton FC - offered £1.5m, in addition to the £1m offered earlier in the week by the Scottish businessman Stephen Winyard. A further £100,000 has been offered by a colleague of Madeleine's mother.

The momentum of the appeal, in the face of Portuguese detectives' refusal to discuss the case or issue public pleas for help, is a product of Madeleine's father's steadfast determination to keep her face in the public eye. Gerry McCann is understood to have told one colleague in Britain this week: "We must keep the media interested and keep the momentum going".

Yesterday, for the first time since their daughter vanished, he and his wife, Kate, left the Mark Warner Ocean complex here for the sanctuary of a private villa, to face the ordeal of passing the child's fourth birthday without her. But Mr McCann did not leave before asking Alex Woolfall, the de facto spokesman for the couple and Mark Warner Ocean, to make yet another appeal. "Keep looking, keep praying and let us bring Madeleine home," read the statement from the McCanns, delivered in time for the main TV breakfast bulletins. They arrived back at their apartment at exactly 4pm. Two-year-old Amelie was carrying a red balloon, while her brother Sean was holding a green one.

Mr McCann's use of the media, which has included deliberate walks with his wife to take Madeleine's twin siblings to a crèche and the piecemeal release of images - from Madeleine's pyjamas to the child in her Everton top - has drawn on every ounce of the couple's strength. What few reserves Kate McCann had left drained away as she was supported, utterly desolate, into the local Church of the Lady of the Light on Thursday. It was her husband who guided her into a vigil at the church last night and who voiced their thanks when, in a immeasurably moving moment, they were clapped out by a congregation of 300.

Maintaining relations with both sides in the stand-off between the British media and Portugal's Policia Judiciaria has been only marginally less challenging. Convinced that the media's attacks on the police were deflecting the focus of the inquiry, Mr McCann publicly reiterated on Friday that he had seen "at first hand how hard the police are working in the search for Madeleine and their strong desire to find her". That statement came seven hours after he had completed a 14-hour session in a police station, separated some of the time from his wife as they were interviewed apart - no minor ordeal for a father whose daughter is missing.

The McCanns' statement was hardly necessary for a British audience which has taken this case deeply to heart. From Praia de Luz to the McCanns' home village of Rugely, Leicestershire, yellow ribbons were worn or tied yesterday to signify that Madeleine has not been forgotten.

Yesterday, a planned party for Madeleine by the Scottish branch of the family was cancelled "until she comes home", but the evidence of a nation willing her to be found was everywhere - in the emails and texts that bounced around the country and beyond, in the ribbons worn by Celtic and Aberdeen players at their match yesterday, in the websites carrying her picture, and in the actions of Britons in Portugal. Ribbon-tying in Praia, which went ahead after consultation with the McCanns, was organised by expat Kate Gurnett, who has children aged six, 12 and 19. In Leicestershire, balloons released for Madeleine included one with a note from her parents: "Mummy and Daddy, Sean and Amelie - We'll see you soon. xx." Last night some 600 Portuguese bikers were preparing to travel the length of their country to distribute leaflets and posters to all areas.

But the inquiry is reportedly now focussing on the Ocean complex itself, with 400 staff and residents who were there over the past four weeks apparently playing a key part.

Senior British police officers also believe that every Ocean resident during the McCanns' one-week staymust be eliminated from inquiries. Whether Leicestershire Police will interview any Britons on the PJ's behalf - or Portuguese officers will visit Britain to do so - remains unclear.

According to reports in Portugal, nine English people have now been interviewed, as witnesses, not as suspects. Three of these were reportedly resident at the Ocean resort, including a couple whose room Madeleine had evidently walked to from her parents' room. Police sniffer dogs have repeatedly picked up her scent.

Another reported new line of inquiry is a white van spotted in a car park behind Madeleine's room before the child's disappearance which is owned by a white foreigner. But there is nothing to suggest that this is a more significance lead than the many others that have evaporated in the past 10 days.

The only persistent Portuguese reports relate to a couple, possibly British, caught with another man on CCTV at a petrol station near Praia on the main A22 route towards Spain, and a couple matching the same description holidaying five miles from Praia in Bergau, who fled after the male was caught photographing girls.

As days turn to weeks with no Madeleine, Gerry McCann's mission becomes harder and, if proof of that were really needed, it came in yesterday's Portuguese papers. Several opted to drop Madeleine's story and to lead on something else.

viv said...

Good thread on 3 As again bringing up the issue, is Gerry the father of the twins but not of Maddie, why did he not sue 24 Horas for writing that and sticking to their story?

Another poster points out, quite correctly, statistically step fathers are more likely to sexually abuse and kill the children than biological fathers. Gerry did make that famous remark, we need to look after our children now, I think he also slipped once and said something about her child, meaning Kate's not his. Just going on looks alone which I know is not exactly scientific Maddie looks a lot like Kate but I cannot see him. He has also wanted to stress she is a real McCann, meaning outgoing, but of course as nursery staff confirm, she was just the opposite. Timid and nervous, like abused children often are.

Poor little Maddie. Whether he was her biological father or not I have absolutely no doubt of his guilt.

xx

viv said...

whoops:-))) and the link is

http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=29916&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

viv said...

Well look at the explanations of the Coroner's and Justice Bill currently going through parliament, very interesting! RIPA means regulation of investigatory powers, in short bugging of criminal suspects. Again, it emphasises that what Tony Bennett is proposing some inquest or other enquiry could not be held in advance of any criminal case, it would mean there would be no criminal case. Note here it is confirmed, a coroner must suspend an investigation if there are to be criminal proceedings but could then re-open the inquest if the criminal proceedings did not provide the complete answer as to how the person died, i.e. the accused pleaded guilty so the court did not look fully at the evidence. It is just the same as his request they should be prosecuted for child neglect, which is not even possible anyway! But if it was it would prevent them being accused of more serious charges. The man is a charlatan and a liar - he did train as a solicitor. I note he did not get a law degree but even so! (He did the common professional exam and then Legal Practice Course which is a route to qualifying without doing a law degree for those like him who have a degree in something else, in his case, social work, apparently)

xx

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmbills/009/en/09009x-l.htm

Investigations concerning or involving a matter which should not be made public

798. Clause 11 relates to “certified” investigations. It would enable the Secretary of State to certify an investigation into a person’s death where he or she considers that the investigation will concern or involve a matter that should not be made public for certain specified reasons (clause 11(2)), and no other measures would be adequate to prevent that matter being made public. Those reasons relate to protecting the interests of national security, the relationship between the UK and another country, or preventing or detecting crime; protecting the safety of a witness or other person; and preventing real harm to the public interest.

The effect of certification is three-fold: the investigation will be conducted by a judge of the High Court nominated by the Lord Chief Justice; the inquest must be held or continued without a jury: and Coroners rules will provide for the exclusion of persons from the inquest. Certification can be discontinued (clause 12). However the certification will not have effect for 14 days from the date of the certification or, if proceedings for judicial review are started within that period, until the conclusion of those proceedings.

799. These provisions will enable there to be full investigations of deaths even where there is sensitive material, including intercept material falling within section 17 of RIPA, which must be considered but which cannot be disclosed publicly (including to a jury) or to the families of the deceased. This ensures compliance with Article 2 ECHR.

800. At present, inquests must be held with a jury if (for example) the death occurred in prison or while the deceased was in police custody or where death resulted from an injury caused by a police officer in the purported execution of his duty. Cases may therefore arise where a coroner is obliged to summon a jury but where there is sensitive material, including RIPA material, which is relevant to the assessment of the circumstances which led to the death but which cannot be disclosed publicly (including to the jury (as the finders of fact)) or to the family of the deceased.

801. The new regime is intended to address this by:

* providing for the investigation to be certified if it concerns or involves a matter (which would include RIPA material) which cannot be disclosed, the effect of which is that the inquest will be held without a jury; and

* amending section 18 of RIPA to permit a judge, in any certified inquest, to order disclosure of RIPA material to himself or herself alone, or to himself or herself and to counsel to the inquest where he or she is satisfied that the exceptional circumstances of the case make the disclosure essential to enable the matters that are required to be ascertained by the inquest to be ascertained.

802. Article 2 requires not only an independent and effective investigation of the circumstances of the death but also requires the State to provide a means of properly protecting the interests of the deceased’s family. Proceedings at a coroner’s inquest are not, at present, considered to be sufficient to meet Article 2 obligations in such cases since the inquest must be held with a jury but the material cannot be disclosed to jury members or to the public or interested persons.

803. In terms of family involvement, the sole requirement - so far as Article 2 is concerned - stems from the decision in Jordan that the next-of-kin of the deceased must be involved in the procedure to “the extent necessary to safeguard their legitimate interests”. Article 2 does not therefore give the public and next-of-kin an absolute right to be present at all times or to see all the material relevant to the investigation. The Government considers that the courts are very likely to accept that it is consistent with Article 2 for sensitive material not to be made public or disclosed to the next-of-kin where this is required by a substantial public interest.

804. In order to ensure that the interests of the next-of-kin are fully protected provision will be made in rules enabling the coroner to appoint independent counsel to the inquest. As a public authority, the coroner will be required to appoint counsel to an inquest where necessary to avoid a breach of Convention rights. Counsel to the inquest will be able to see the material and would be directed, by the coroner, to take responsibility for testing the evidence which cannot be disclosed publicly or to the next-of-kin, acting in effect as special advocate. Although counsel to the inquest would not be independent of the inquest, the Government considers that this is not vital since the coroner (who will be a High Court judge) will be independent - and for the purposes of complying with Article 2, “independent” means independent of those involved in the death.

805. Although Coroners rules under clause 34(4) will require a direction to be given excluding persons from all or part of an inquest that has to be held without a jury, such a direction will only be necessary when the inquest is considering sensitive material. The rest of the inquest will continue to take place in public ensuring public scrutiny of the investigation so far as possible.

806. There is a further safeguard in subsection (5) which prevents the certification from having effect until 14 days after it was issued or, if judicial review proceedings are begun in that 14 day period, until they are concluded. The Secretary of State will have a responsibility to notify interested persons about the certification and they will have time to consider whether to commence judicial review proceedings before the certification takes effect.

807. These provisions will affect a very limited number of cases in exceptional circumstances and the Government anticipates that there will be no more than an occasional inquest which needs to be held under these conditions.

808. The Government is aware of at least one inquest which is stalled because the coroner and jury are unable to consider sensitive material which is relevant to the investigation. The Bill therefore enables the Lord Chancellor by order to apply the equivalent of clauses 11 and 12 to inquests which have already started under the 1988 Act before those provisions come into force (paragraph 4 of Schedule 20 to the Bill).

809. Clause 13 enables intercept evidence to be considered at an inquest although it will remain inadmissible in criminal proceedings. However there is no possibility of a coroner’s investigation reaching a different conclusion to criminal proceedings. Criminal proceedings always take place before a coroner’s investigation since the coroner is required to suspend an investigation under the Act until the outcome of criminal proceedings. A determination of a coroner’s investigation resumed after criminal proceedings have concluded may not be inconsistent with the outcome of the criminal proceedings (paragraph 8(11) of Schedule 1). Equally a determination may not be framed in such a way as to appear to determine any question of criminal liability on the part of a named person (clause 10(2)(a)).

810. Provision equivalent to the certified investigation provisions described above will have effect in Northern Ireland by virtue of paragraph 3 of Schedule 9.

Suspending and resuming investigations

811. Investigations may be suspended and resumed (clause 14 and Schedule 1). In particular, a senior coroner must suspend an investigation where criminal proceedings may be brought (if the prosecution so request) or where they have been brought. A senior coroner must also suspend an investigation if an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005 is being held and the Lord Chancellor asks the coroner to do so because the cause of death is likely to be adequately investigated by the inquiry. There is also a general power for a senior coroner to suspend an investigation if he or she thinks it appropriate to do so.

812. An investigation suspended by a coroner may not be resumed unless, but must be resumed if, the senior coroner thinks that there is sufficient reason for resuming it.

813. There is no provision in the Bill requiring an investigation to be resumed in circumstances where it is needed to fulfil the requirements of Article 2. The need could arise because the criminal investigation did not examine all the material that the coroner is required to make findings on under Article 2, for example, because the defendant in the criminal proceedings pleaded guilty.

814. The Government considers that it is not necessary to make express provision in the Bill requiring an investigation to be resumed in these circumstances because the coroner would already be required by section 6(1) of the HRA 1988 to resume the investigation if that is in fact necessary to secure compliance with Article 2. Such provision would in any event be duplicative and so contrary to proper legislative practice.

Post-mortem examination

815. A coroner may ask a suitable practitioner to make a post-mortem examination of the deceased (clause 15). This would include any examination made after the death of the deceased, whether invasive or non-invasive, for example, using MRI since an invasive post-mortem involves dissection of the body it runs counter to certain religious beliefs and could therefore engage the deceased’s family members’ right to manifest religious belief under Article 9. The Government considers that an invasive post-mortem examination would be justified, even where it infringes their religious belief, where it contributes to the purpose of an investigation in promoting and protecting public safety and health.

816. In any event the Government considers that the provision is not disproportionate in effect. Regulations made under the Bill will enable the deceased’s family members to make representations to the coroner about whether a post-mortem examination should take place. A coroner will be required to take into account representations from family members to use non-invasive procedures at a post-mortem although the final decision will be for the coroner.

817. In such a case the coroner will be able to order the removal of a body to any suitable place in England and Wales (clause 16), for example, if specialist pathology equipment or skills are available outside his area.

Death certification

818. Clauses 18 and 19 provide for the scrutiny and secondary certification of deaths not subject to investigation by a senior coroner. In particular, such scrutiny is to be carried out by a medical practitioner who will have the title “medical examiner”. This reflects certain conclusions of the Third Report of the Shipman Inquiry.

819. Insertion of an additional step in the death certification process arguably could delay the disposal of bodies. This might give rise to concerns for various religious groups whose practices demand that disposal takes place as soon as possible after death and therefore bring into play Article 9(1). The ECtHR has held that the right to have a burial in accordance with the practice of a certain religion does come within Article 9(1) (Islamic Community in Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia (Burials and Cremation). 3

820. In the Government’s view these provisions do not infringe Article 9(1). The procedures which will be put in place to enable the medical examiner to carry out the scrutiny will ensure that any additional delay will be kept to an absolute minimum. Indeed, given the use of electronic communications, it is entirely possible that there would be no additional delay at all. In any event, it is important to note that this procedure will apply only in the most straightforward cases - where the cause of death is known, natural and non-suspicious - and so it is in everyone’s interest to expedite the certification process.

Gathering of evidence

821. Clause 24 and Schedule 4 set out the powers of a senior coroner. These include power to require people to attend and give evidence, to provide evidence by way of a written statement, and to produce documents and things.

822. These powers of compulsion could engage rights under both Article 8 and Article 1, Protocol 1 (“A1P1”). But unless a coroner (or, where relevant, jury) can ascertain all relevant facts and inspect all relevant material it will make it impossible to comply with the obligations under clauses 5 and 10 of the Bill. Powers to compel evidence are also a necessary corollary of the state’s duty to discharge obligations under Article 2. In Edwards v UK 4, it was held that the lack of any power to compel witnesses diminished the effectiveness of the inquiry as a mechanism to investigate and establish the facts relevant to the death, and thereby to achieve one of the purposes required by Article 2.

823. Whether any interference with the right to privacy is justifiable will depend on the particular circumstances of the case and it will be for the coroner to ensure that he only exercises the powers in a way which ensures that any interference is in pursuit of a legitimate aim and proportionate to the aims, thus falling within Article 8(2).

824. Interference with an A1P1 right may be justified if it is in the public or general interest. The Government is satisfied that any interference here will be justified in the public or general interest because an investigation of a non-natural death must reach conclusions based on all relevant information.

825. There are also safeguards in the Bill to ensure that any interference is not disproportionate. By paragraph 1(4) of Schedule 4, the person required to attend, or produce a document or thing may claim that compliance is either impossible or unreasonable, and the coroner has the power to vary or revoke the notice given. When considering whether to do so, the coroner must take into account the public interest (paragraph 1(5) of Schedule 4). This ensures that the coroner considers whether a fair balance will be struck between the competing interests whenever he considers whether to exercise the powers of compulsion. 5 Furthermore, a person may not be required to give, produce or provide any evidence or document if he or she could not be required to do so in civil proceedings (paragraph 2).

Di said...

Hi Viv & All

I just wanted to say Happy Mothers Day to everyone, enjoy your evening see you all tomorrow.

x

bath theory said...

Is there any implication that Maddies father came from a dutch friend and the ivf story is unreal ? Certainly in a fit of rage one could at least visualise a father snapping and getting rid of a child under such circumstances as horrific as it sounds but then why would the mother keep quiet - that doesnt add up either nor the friends silence on the matter

bath theory said...

I believe the accident theory myself and the bath being critical to this story

Wizard said...

An abduction as the likely fate of Madeleine has gained momentum with the public at large imo due to the free advertising (and this is what it really is) given by the media to this theory. The parents have through various strategies infiltrated and cajoled them into publishing, in the main, their story of advents and sued or threatened to sue those who failed to perpetuate their story.

Gerry was seen a couple of weeks ago in a parliamentary committee, brazenly taking the opportunity to threaten yet again media sources in Britain, He fired a double barrelled cannon across their bows as a warning of intention to sue if they step out of line to his version of events. In case the media was in any doubt of this he placed a libel lawyer on one side of himself and his PR mouthpiece on the other.

This recent threat was strategically timed to ensure when Amaral’s book is published in Britain, media sources will not speculated on the information within it, which of course conflicts with theirs and would unravel months of ground gained by them in promoting a stranger abduction.

Dr McCann’s January visit to his Portuguese lawyers was in all likelihood, more to do with exploring the possibility of curtailing the activities of the Portuguese press in advocating the McCanns involvement in their daughter’s disappearance.

As usual GM’s actions are crystal clear – maintaining his story of events at all costs to avoid criminal charges.

viv said...

Hiya Di

I had a lovely Mother's Day thanks and I hope you and everyone else did too.

BT

So know matter what the McCanns or indeed me or anyone else says, you are sticking to your theory of what happened. It is one where Maddie clearly came to serious harm, aside from Team McCann everyone accepts that is sadly the case.

Wiz - good post, apart from I do not think the British Government will allow Goncalo Amaral's book to be published here. I think it is more the case Gerry knows the investigation against him continues, perhaps the police are much nearer to finding Maddie or at least what happened to her and he is warning the press as you suggest. In short it has reached the stage when he can no longer con them to be on his side or to perpetuate a false version of the facts.

xx

viv said...

Aha, things are hotting up again tomorrow with Mr Meyer and crime correspondents giving evidence to the Select Committee, that will be worth listening to.

Meanwhile Stephen Dorrell, unpleasant tory who supported war in Iraq, hunting etc, has given an adverse view of Tony Bennett and his book. What did they actually expect? Foresight? Would they be good at chess or litigation? I hardly think so! They just blunder oh, sure they know best..whilst Gerry McCann sits at home rubbing his hands in glee at how utterly crass they are. Do they have the right to just make judgmental assumptions and publish them about a serious criminal case, well no they do not!


veritas
Post subject: Re: Culture Media Sport Select Committee schedule 24/03/09
New postPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:48 pm


Especially as Jeff Edwards is giving evidence!

Jeff Edwards - Chairman, Crime Reporters Association

Main Page Content:
Jeff Edwards: ‘For every story, there are nine I don’t write’

Madeleine McCann coverage

Edwards describes the coverage of Madeleine McCann as a “festival of misreporting” on account of the conclusions many journalists have drawn about the case.

“It is a prime example. Nothing is known; it is a one-fact story – a little girl is missing. Right across the media there has been a festival of misreporting based largely on naïve guesswork, vacuum filling and dangerous assumption. We don’t generally emerge with much credit.

“I get p***** off with columnists who say the parents can’t have had anything to do with it. All the murder squad people I know say ‘don’t talk to me about certain things being impossible’. There’s been a certain amount of unconscious racism here about the Portuguese police. Actually, it’s not a third world country.

“They may not have our level of competence but they are not stupid and they are limited by their own constitution. Whatever is said about that inquiry, everything they’ve done has been driven by something such as significant inconsistencies between the McCanns and their friends.”

I wonder if Mr Edwards will repeat that to the Committee? :iconbiggrin:

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp ... tioncode=6

.

Di said...

Hi all

I was shocked to see Fiona Phillips fronting loose women today, what is that all about?

I record and watch early evening with hubby, he has just said he won't watch it again if she is fronting, as it is so boring.

I have not even told him yet that she supports the McCanns and child neglect.

viv said...

Hiya Di,

I am at a loss to understand why certain journalists are prepared to ruin their own reputation by seeking to insist Gerry and Kate are just unfortunate victims in the demise of Madeleine.

As Jeff Edwards says above everything the Portuguese Police did was motivated by the fact of very significant inconsistencies in the accounts of the TAPAS 9. No matter what strain of logic you choose to use, that means they just have to be involved in the disappearance of Madeleine and in the failure to properly assist the police in finding out exactly what happened to her.

Our own Home Office have confirmed there is an ongoing investigation to properly find that out. I just cannot understand why people cannot accept that, or why they think the press must decide exactly what the McCanns did and write about it in the press. Or indeed why they think MPs should be prepared to just condemn the McCanns for what they have decided took place, exactly, ahead of any police charges being made. Bunch of loonies if they think this has anything to do with finding justice or seeing that justice actually happens. If the police do not have evidence as yet of precisely what happened to Madeleine and, at whose hands, then they cannot bring charges. Sometimes that takes years. Criminal proceedings are not about what a bunch of vigilantes decide took place, they are about hard evidence that can prove that.

hope4truth said...

Morning All

Thank God the police decided to investigate Karen Mathews and not just go along with her tale of woe..

I fear if they had have just stuck thier heads in the sand it may have become obvious to Karen that there was no way they could just magic Shannon back and she may have been killed (or the drugs used to sedate her may have killed her over prolonged use)...

The McCanns their friends and family have acted in a very strange way by refusing to answer questions taking money from the fund for wages and for the Grandparents especialy to sit back and think that hiring a spin dr (even a crap one) and paying out nearly 40k on media monotoring is ok and justified is strange to say the least.

If my parents for starters knew I had negelcted my children for a few nights out and then saw pictures of me (or were with me) when I looked like I had won the lottery especialy on a sad event of a Birthday and to top it all found out I refused to answer a single question for their grandchild they would be demanding the investigation focused on me as much as they love me I am an adult and their Granddaughters deserve a voice as well...

What a strange world we live in when child neglect is rewarded and god forbid you upset the parents even if it means getting to the truth.

Di said...

Afternoon all

Well we knew something was about to happen.

Sky News are reporting a fresh appeal and leaflet drop in PDL, Lagos & Burgau over the next fortnight. What next fresh sightings of the abductor!

link

bath theory said...

Viv
I am sticking to the view that an accident occured and that the blood in that apartment was a young girl who has disappeared and we know her as Madeleine. I do not believe in any abduction and I believe the parents know a lot more than they state. I also believe events around the bathing activities that evening were crucial as it is a time of real stress for families ie 6.00 - 8.00pm in the evening is when most have had enough and ones energy saps away leading to frustration etc. So, Viv you are right despite what you may believe I think no abduction occured but wouldn't it be nice to find out she is alive somewhere - that would be super news. I firmly believe to state one more time that the parents know what happened that night.

Di said...

Hi Viv

Are you thinking an alive Madeleine is about to be found?

viv said...

Hope and BT, thanks for great posts and BT of course I respect your right to continue to believe that, which is still a definite possibility. You are right to exemplify the stress around bathtime with three little children and a mom who was no spring chicken and clearly was not the best at coping with children she was just left to deal with by a husband who was far more concerned about his keep fit activities, or should I just say, himself. What we know for sure is they were involved.

Di, well what a shocker, like you say we were expecting something but I do not think any of us thought of anything quite so utterly audacious as this.

By this stage Kate and Gerry have had plenty of time to make a very detailed study of all the local evidence the PJ collected and presumably be assured there is more to come forward against them than what have already done so. But just to be on the safe side, we see them, as ever, seeking to pervert the course of justice by requiring people to contact their hotline rather than the police.

To be completely frank Di, I would not even be surprised if all of a sudden Maddie is just dumped on some local street. The story would no doubt go, the abductor got cold feet as Kate and Gerry closed in on the wicked abductor. But I do not believe the police will be taken in and if Maddie does turn up in this way, I expect them to face an immediate arrest.

I think it merits a new post!

xx

viv said...

be assured NO more to come!

xx

hope4truth said...

Hello

Wouldent it be wonderful if Madeleine was to reapear safe and as Gerry has always said unharmed...

Nothing would be more wonderful than Madeleine being alive and well but 2 years on going back to where it all began is very strange.

Not a single one of them bothered to look for her when she went missing spinning she was in Morocco Kate refused to help in any way by refusing to answer a single question and none of the friends would go back for a reconstruction.

If they had torn the place apart and each of the friends had searched the minute she went missing they may have found something but to go back now???

I cant imagine a single person will be holding back important information...

In fact the only reliable sighting so far that someone made who had nothing to gain from it was the Smith sighting so why dont they follow that lead???

Not being funny but just as Madeleine looks like 100s of other children Gerry looks like 100s of other Men is it imposible to believe that it was not Gerry that the Smiths family sighting was not Gerry but someone who looked like him...

For parents who have nothing to hide and the only thing they did wrong was to neglect their children they do seem to want to run the investigation their way...

I know some people think we are jealous evil scum for posting but if my child were missing there is not a single question I would not answer or a single thing I would spin to make myself look better???

Lets hope Viv is right and she has been hidden somewhere because Madeleine is the only person who matters in the whole mess...

viv said...

Hiya Hope

I would not want to raise anyone's hopes that Madeleine is alive, because that is just a hunch, a possibility and by no means a certainty.

But their conduct, now, two years on, wanting to go back to looking in the immediate area, can only be described as far too little too late, as you suggest.

I think it can also be described as yet another back handed insult to the Portuguese Police themselves. Very clearly the heat of the investigation, the epicentre is precisely where the McCanns now say they will focus and that is where it should have been from day one. That is what the McCanns just did not do. By their own admission they went globetrotting around the world, making international appeals and insisting Madeleine was probably in Morocco etc, clearly without any basis in evidence or fact. What they did was create a massive media circus which Gerry McCann was proudly sniggering about in front of Jeremy Paxman. In eliciting this response from Gerry, I think Paxman was his usual brilliant self. To any discerning member of the public, looking, critically for the truth, the truth was exposed for all to see.

Getting back to the Portuguese Police and how they have always sought to insult their credibility and professionalism. This is entirely consistent with the conduct and behaviour of offenders who want to transfer responsibility for a serious crime away from themselves. I am sure I have mentioned the man I interviewed at PSR. He drove very dangerously with his girlfriend and 17 month old baby in the car. The police drove dangerously to follow him and stop him. He sat there raging to me about the police, telling me, well I am sorry, one of the police cars was not even a marked one, that was illegal and the way they were driving that was illegal, I am seeing my solicitor about this and if they are doing me, I am sorry but I am doing them. Needless to say my mouth just fell open with amazement at such an incredibly perverted thinking style when these police officers brought this thug to a halt and probably saved his life, his baby's and his girlfriends by doing so. Could this man demonstrate any concern for his 17 year old girlfriend, a child herself or the baby he had with her, well of course not, just rage for the police.

We have seen via the DVD, that very senior police officers, in fact the most senior Leicester had to offer, both the Chief Superintendent Bob Small and his immediate deputy Superintendent Stu Prior were both there, among others, fully assisting the PJ from the very outset, suspicion was so high against these parents. What we have also seen is a very thorough and detailed search and investigation where hundreds of people were interviewed within the space of just a few days in that immediate locality.

Now, almost two years on, these parents claim they are going back on such ridiculous pretext that some local Portuguese person has just been waiting for a McCann detective to talk to. They never answered the police questions at the time, and they never bothered to contact the police either. It is, when you look at it honestly another serious affront to the Portuguese. It is also so outrageous at such a late stage, such a gesture could only come from a couple who simply do not merit the hallowed title "parent", Gerry and Kate McCann.

The timing of this release is also incredibly cynical and stage managed. We have had Gerry go and complain again turning the tables on anyone but himself about how the press just kept writing about them, just like he was so intent on them doing. How dare they! Today we have crime correspondents and Christopher Meyer giving evidence to the Select Committee. I have listed to the video and the audio quality is poor but I have heard quite clearly that the PCC is accepted to be a very powerful organisation that does really good work. When people are really upset about the press or feel they privacy invaded the PCC just quietly goes about the job of putting that right for them. They do not want to bother with courts, lawyers and yet more publicity, they just want the press to stop hounding them. This is not what Gerry McCann wanted, he sat and waited until he had almost ran out of time to complain about the Daily Express and then got himself another load of helpful publicity, as he thought, together with a massive handout of dosh. If he thinks that was such a good move, I think he better think again, and as for burying bad news, he will continue to get precisely what he deserves IMO.

JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND IF SHE CAN BE RESCUED LET US HOPE THAT HAPPENS VERY QUICKLY BUT NOT BACK INTO THE "LOVING" ARMS OF KATE AND GERRY MCCANN

X

viv said...

Also in Committee today, journalists accepted tha financial incentives drive news story that often have little backing in fact. Editors were looking and saying oh we keep getting 10,000 hits online on the McCann story we just have to keep them coming.

But who is it that is keeping them coming right now, is it the press, or is it who it usually is? Gerry McCann and his paid monkey? Paid for from the Find Madeleine Fund, and I would just like to ask Clarence Mitchell one question. How is continuing to pay your salary from that Fund doing anything at all to either find Madeleine or find what happened to her?

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/VideoPlayer.aspx?meetingId=3767&rel=ok