1 May 2009

RAPE MONSTER CONVICTED /DAILY MAIL MAN WAS HORRIBLY RIGHT ABOUT GERRY AND KATE MCCANN

What an incredibly brave and intelligent little girl to get this sickening animal locked up for life, but how on earth did we think it was justice to subject her, aged 4 to cross examination? That is frankly appalling, has this child not suffered enough. It really just adds to the trauma and horror at her treatment that she has faced this again to secure a second conviction for this animal.



But read the article, is there a warning to all of us in there about continuing to comment on the McCann case, David Payne etc?



Baby P monster raped girl of two: Stepfather faces life in jail after tiny victim makes legal history in court ordeal

By Vanessa Allen
Last updated at 2:23 AM on 02nd May 2009

The man responsible for the death of Baby P was yesterday convicted of the rape of a two-year-old girl.

The sadistic 32-year-old was found guilty after the girl became, at the age of four, the youngest rape victim in legal history to give evidence.

She endured 45 minutes of cross examination by two defence barristers after her filmed police statement had been played to the Old Bailey.

Police and children's charities reacted with fury last night over the fact she was subjected to such an intimidating court ordeal.

Baby P's stepfather was found guilty of raping a two-year-old child today

Baby P's stepfather was found guilty of raping a two-year-old child today

The girl was attacked by Baby P's stepfather while she was supposedly being monitored by Haringey Council. This is the same London borough which also failed Baby P and an earlier victim of abuse, Victoria Climbie.

The stepfather - convicted last year of causing or allowing Baby P's death - is now facing a possible life sentence for rape and will be placed on the Sex Offenders' Register.

Psychiatrists have warned he will always be a danger to children, and police are investigating concerns that he abused two other girls. An independent investigation has begun into how he was able to target the girl, seemingly under the nose of the local authority.

His dramatic conviction meant a ban on reporting the trial was lifted. It came as:

  • Baby P can be named for the first time as Peter, at the request of his real father,
  • A report into his death said it could have been prevented,
  • Haringey issued a grovelling apology over its failures to protect the children,
  • The Attorney General investigated an internet 'name and shame' campaign which risked derailing the trial and led to the defendants being given false names.
Sharon Shoesmith, who was head of children's services at Haringey council at the time, was sacked in December last year

Sharon Shoesmith: Sacked in December over the Baby P scandal

Baby Peter's mother had faced a charge of cruelty in relation to the rape, but was found not guilty by the jury of eight men and four women.

The girl had told the Old Bailey that the 28-year-old woman walked in during the sex attack, but made no attempt to stop it or to rescue the helpless child.

The victim claimed the mother had only turned to her boyfriend and wagged her finger at him, telling him: 'Don't do that... Don't do it.'

The couple, who inflicted months of agonising torture on Baby Peter, will now face sentencing later this month along with their former lodger Jason Owen, 36, of Bromley, Kent, for causing or allowing his death.

Legal experts have warned that Peter's mother will face a relatively low sentence and could even be freed as early as next year. His stepfather will be sentenced for the girl's rape at the same hearing.

Detectives believe the convicted child rapist may have sexually abused the two-year-old girl at least three times in 2007, before his arrest over Peter's death in August 2007.

But he was only charged with a single count of rape, because lawyers feared it would be too difficult for his young victim to try to give evidence about several different occasions.

Her harrowing account was at the centre of the trial, and without her key evidence the prosecution could not have gone ahead. The rape victim, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was placed on Haringey's child protection register in December 2006 over fears she was at risk of neglect.

The social workers in contact with her family had no idea she had been targeted by the same pain-obsessed brute who tortured Baby Peter.

She was later taken into foster care, and told her foster mother that Peter's stepfather had sexually abused her.

Sacked: Clive Preece, Maria Ward and Gillie Christou. Celia Hitchen (not pictured) was also dismissed

Sacked: Clive Preece, Maria Ward and Gillie Christou. Celia Hitchen (not pictured) was also dismissed

Police and social services were called but when detectives asked the girl, then aged three, if the man had touched her she shook her head, and the investigation was dropped - potentially wasting a vital chance to investigate.

Two months later the child made the accusation again and re-enacted the alleged rape to child psychiatrists, using a doll and a teddy bear to show what had happened.

Haringey Council last night made a grovelling apology for its failures over both children, and admitted: 'We have accepted that things went badly wrong with our child protection in 2007.'

Peter suffered more than 50 injuries including eight broken ribs and a snapped spine, despite being seen 60 times by social workers, police and health officials in the last eight months of his life.

Jurors in the rape trial were not told of the defendants' previous convictions over his death, because lawyers feared that public revulsion over that crime was so great that they would not receive a fair trial.

They were not even told the couple's true names. Instead they were tried using false names, a step normally reserved for gangland 'supergrasses' whose lives are considered at risk.

Tributes laid in the garden of remembrance in memory of Baby P at the Islington Crematorium, East Finchley, London.

Tributes laid in the garden of remembrance in memory of Baby P at the Islington Crematorium, East Finchley, London.

Court orders still prevent newspapers or broadcasters from revealing their identities. The couple have both received death threats.

Lawyers have asked the Attorney General to investigate a 'name and shame' campaign which led to their names and photographs appearing on hundreds of websites, including the social networking site Facebook, alongside calls for them to face vigilante-style 'justice'.

Local MP Lynne Featherstone called for Haringey to face a public inquiry over its failures to protect children.

Haringey said an independent investigation was under way, and admitted it had made 'failures of judgment, professional practice, management and supervision'.

There have been widespread dismissals at the council since the Baby Peter abuse scandal emerged, including the borough's former head of children's services Sharon Shoesmith, who is fighting her dismissal at an employment tribunal. Earlier this week four more officials were sacked.

The new report was the second serious case review, ordered by the Government after the first one was criticised for being too soft on Haringey.

The second review found his death 'could and should have been prevented' and said social workers, lawyers, police and doctors who dealt with him were 'lacking in urgency and lacking in thoroughness'.







What happened to this man's integrity, his original article was refreshingly honest, this one is fashionably sickening.



David Jones had his suspicions about the McCanns but two years on, he confesses he was horribly wrong

By David Jones
Last updated at 10:50 PM on 01st May 2009

Loss: Kate and Gerry McCann in the days after Madeleine's disappearance

Loss: Kate and Gerry McCann in the days after Madeleine's disappearance

Tuning the car radio into a late-night BBC phone-in programme during a long motorway drive, a heated debate caught my attention.

'What sort of parents would leave their three-year-old daughter alone in an apartment and go off for dinner?' one angry caller would demand to know.

Then someone else would counter: 'They did nothing wrong. This could have happened to anyone.'

As I listened, it slowly became evident that the girl in question had vanished a few hours earlier from a holiday resort in Portugal, and that she seemed to have been abducted from her bed as she slept.

By the following day, the first heart-melting photographs of 'Missing Madeleine McCann' had been published in the newspapers, etching this grimly compelling story into the national consciousness.

And soon afterwards, I was dispatched to the Algarve to report the hunt for the snatched-away cherub.

Tomorrow marks the second anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance, yet this saga has since taken so many twists and turns, and invoked such prurient fascination, that it might have happened only yesterday.

Two years and millions of words later, the questions show no sign of abating. 'What do you think happened to her? Could she still be alive? Where is she now?' I am invariably asked, if ever I mention that I spent many weeks investigating the Madeleine McCann mystery.

Like every other reporter who has striven to solve this perplexing case, not to mention all those expensive private investigators and the inept Portuguese police, I am no nearer to knowing the answers today than I was on that May afternoon when I first arrived in Praia da Luz.

But over recent months, having sifted again through my notebooks, scoured the internet, revisited old contacts and observed Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry, campaigning relentlessly and indefatigably for their daughter's return, I have come to one definite conclusion.

It is that whatever became of the slumbering Madeleine on that dreadful Thursday night, her parents played no part in her disappearance.

In early September, 2007, during perhaps the most sensational week of the inquiry, Kate McCann was declared an arguida (an official suspect) by the Portuguese judiciary.

During her ensuing interrogation, she was treated in a manner which bordered on brutality - remorselessly bullied and hectored in a marathon grilling that would have tested anyone's inner resources to their limits, let alone that of a grief-stricken mother.

At that time, amid mounting speculation about the McCanns' possible culpability, I wrote an article that caused something of a stir and, I am told, exacerbated Kate and Gerry's anguish.

(It also angered my wife, who, with a mother's instincts, has steadfastly believed the McCanns from the outset.)

In that piece, which was based on the facts in my possession - aligned to gut feeling - I voiced the suspicions of many colleagues and a surprisingly large proportion of the watching public, by admitting that I had nagging doubts about the couple's innocence.

It was an honestly held opinion, but now, on the second anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance, I have to confess that I was horribly wrong.

One of two new posters which show Madeleine McCann as she was aged three, and how she might look now, aged six.

One of two new posters which show Madeleine McCann as she was aged three, and how she might look now, aged six.

Why, though, did I think back then that they might be in some way culpable, and why, two years after their daughter vanished, have I so radically changed my views?

As the spring of 2007 progressed, opinions about Kate and Gerry McCann polarised in an extraordinary way, and they found themselves the subject of intense scrutiny.

It was fuelled by their decision to launch an international media campaign, the likes of which had never been seen before, in the hope that it would keep Madeleine in the news and hasten her return.

They hired a succession of PR experts and private investigators, set up an internet site that kept people up to speed with every facet of the case via Gerry McCann's strangely breezy web diary, jetted around the world to appear on TV and even secured an audience with the Pope.

All this frenetic activity was paid for by a fund whose coffers were swelled by tycoons such as Sir Philip Green and Sir Richard Branson; and it made many people deeply uneasy.

Ironically, discussion of their campaign techniques also distracted the world from the very objective the McCanns and their supporters were trying to promote: namely, finding their missing little girl.

Observing from close quarters, I was among those who found it all rather unedifying. During those early months I was perturbed by the McCanns' demeanour.


Clinging for comfort to Madeleine's favourite soft toy, Cuddle Cat, Kate appeared unreachably distant.

Her husband, by contrast, seemed positively chipper, and there were days when the Leicestershire cardiologist almost appeared to relish his highprofile, globetrotting new role.

With hindsight this was a ridiculous and unjustifiable rush to judgment. For how can any of us know what constitutes 'appropriate' behaviour for parents robbed of a child so swiftly and left in limbo, unable to escape the darkest fears of their imagination?

As their spokesman Clarence Mitchell remarked to me this week, after it was suggested that Kate again appeared close to the edge on returning from an appearance on The Oprah Winfrey Show in America, the couple would have been damned in some quarters however they had reacted.

He was right, but I was not alone among those who allowed their personal observations of the McCanns to colour their opinions about the case.

Gerry and Kate McCann talk with Oprah Winfrey about the ongoing search for daughter Madeleine who went missing two years ago this Sunday

Gerry and Kate McCann talk with Oprah Winfrey about the ongoing search for daughter Madeleine who went missing two years ago this Sunday

And the more I examined the story, as they and their team presented it (in the absence of any information from the legally constrained Portuguese police), the more sceptical I became.

There were all manner of reasons why the suggestion that some fiend had simply carried off Madeleine into the night just didn't seem to add up.

For one thing, Praia da Luz is not some bustling, mainstream Mediterranean resort where a stranger could easily slip in undetected.

It is little more than a village, serviced by one main access road. In early May, it is particularly quiet (the more so now that many holidaymakers refuse to venture there).

Furthermore, the apartment the McCanns had rented was on the ground floor, on the corner of a well-lit street and passageway.

Although the McCanns and their friends - the so called Tapas Seven - were dining in a restaurant obscured by a 6ft wall, they were less than 100 yards away.

Examining this scene time and again, measuring out precise distances and times, it seemed inconceivable that anyone would have the audacity, let alone the wherewithal, to break into the flat and snatch a three-year old girl sleeping beside her younger twin siblings without being caught.

The alternative theories seemed equally outlandish. Some ventured that Madeleine had woken up bewildered in a strange country and wandered off to look for Mummy and Daddy, only to fall down the freshly dug roadworks by the apartment, which were filled in a few days later.

Or had she been snatched by paedophiles and smuggled out of Portugal, perhaps across the Spanish border an hour's drive away, or on a waiting boat - a possibility that gained credence after witnesses said they had seen a girl resembling Madeleine with a man near the harbour?

As this last scenario gathered momentum, I went to Morocco, following one of many supposedly reliable eye-witness sightings of the little blonde girl with a distinctive 'flash' in her right eye.

The trail led to a remote village high in the Atlas mountains, where Madeleine was believed to be held captive in some farmhouse - but, like so many other such claims in Belgium, Holland, Spain and, most recently Malta, it came to nothing.

In the meantime, the spotlight had fallen on Robert Murat, an entrepreneur of mixed British and Portuguese extraction whose mother lived just a few hundred yards from the McCann apartment.

In the estimation of one over imaginative reporter, he appeared to have acted strangely while working as an interpreter for Portuguese police investigating the disappearance.

Such was the police's desperation to solve a case that threw their deficiencies into stark relief that, without any discernible foundation, Murat was also made an official suspect.

Every aspect of his personal life was minutely examined, and when it was found that he had made a late-night phone call to a Russian computer nerd with whom he was friendly on the night Madeleine was taken, this was taken to be highly significant.

Murat was then the subject of all manner of lurid smear stories. Yet when I tracked him down at his sister's country guesthouse and became one of the few reporters to interview him at length, I did not recognise the man in these articles.

As he spoke lovingly about his own infant daughter, and described how it felt to be falsely accused of the most terrible crime imaginable, I became convinced of his innocence - and wrote as much.

Yet, at that stage, I still couldn't be so sure about the McCanns, and when Kate was arrested I came out and said so.

I asked Clarence Mitchell this week how they had reacted. 'Kate and Gerry didn't like the piece, but at the end of the day you have the legitimate right to question anything as a journalist.


Hope: One of the posters being released by the Find Madeleine Campaign

Hope: One of the posters being released by the Find Madeleine Campaign

'Given the flavour of what came out in the Portuguese media at that time it was understandable; regrettable but understandable.

'But when you meet them, and get to know them, you realise quite quickly that they aren't making this up. And when Madeleine is recovered, a lot of people will regret what they wrote.'

Sadly, I am not at all sure that she ever will be found.

Flawed as the Portuguese police case against the McCanns clearly was, it is not so much the hard evidence that now convinces me that I was wrong, but our old friend gut instinct, which in my case has completely changed after following the case from a distance for many months.

I have come to admire the McCanns for their cussed determination and refusal to alter course, despite all the criticism.

When I spoke to Madeleine's two grandmothers this week, that admiration was cemented. 'The whole family are physically exhausted. Kate, in particular, is very tired after coming home from America,' her mother, Susan Healy, told me from her Liverpool home.

'She has had a hectic couple of weeks and really needs to recharge her batteries, but I don't think she has thought about stopping. Not for a minute. I don't think either of them can stop - that's the awful thing.

'They are just stuck in a situation where they don't have a lot of control. The only control they have is to remind people that Madeleine is still missing. That is why they do it.

'You have to understand that everything Kate does - everything - is done because she wants her daughter back. That's the only question they ever ask themselves: will this help us find Madeleine? Nothing else is of any importance.

'If Kate ever gets to the end of the line - I mean, if they got to the stage where they thought there was nothing more they could do - then that would be very difficult. But it would appear that they haven't reached that stage.

'Madeleine is their daughter and they've simply got to carry on. I don't know whether they would call it optimism or not, but they have to keep hoping. If they shrugged their shoulders and said "OK, she's not alive any more," they would be letting her down, wouldn't they?'

In Glasgow, Mr McCann's mother, Eileen, told me much the same thing. 'There's nothing to say that Madeleine isn't alive, so why would they think otherwise?' she said. 'We never even discuss any other possibility.'

You can only applaud such spirit. But if, against all the conceivable odds, Madeleine really has survived, what has become of her?

This week, in a TV reconstruction of her abduction, the latest private detectives to be hired by the McCanns - two experienced former CID men from the North of England, whose no-nonsense approach contrasts sharply with that of their expensive and unproductive predecessors - may uncover fresh clues.

After sifting through reams of previously unexamined Portuguese judicial documents and reinterviewing key witnesses, there is talk of a new 'mystery man' apparently seen loitering near the apartment on that fateful Thursday night.

The programme will not solve the most enduring and troubling missing person inquiry of modern times, of course. Nor will it silence the whispers from those who still harbour lingering doubts about Mr and Mrs McCann.

Nevertheless, we can be sure that they will continue to carry their cross with stoicism.

57 comments:

viv said...

This is just truly horrific, what about this little girl's human rights? I just cannot believe the judge allowed this to happen.

It is just heartbreaking and I am sure will add to her being severely damaged, for life.




She called it the 'evil room' - the video suite where a little girl was grilled for 45 minutes by lawyers

By Vanessa Allen
Last updated at 12:14 AM on 02nd May 2009

* Comments (0)
* Add to My Stories

A doll and a teddy bear were the only way the little girl could communicate what had happened to her.

She placed the doll on its stomach on a dolls' house bed, and then placed the teddy bear face down on top of it, before telling a child psychiatrist that the man had hurt her when she was just two.

'It was not nice what he did,' she said. 'He hurt me. It hurt all day.'
court artist drawing

An artist's impression of the Old Bailey scene shows the judge and barristers watching the girl give evidence via a video link

The little girl's halting account of what happened to her, given when she was only three, was recorded on video and played to the Old Bailey.

Now four, she is youngest rape victim to give evidence.


More...

* Baby P's stepfather guilty of raping two-year-old girl

After the court saw the video, she was subjected to a 45-minute cross-examination. For this she was sitting with an adult in an Old Bailey annexe which was linked to court by video camera.

But her obvious distress - and tough questioning at the hands of two defence lawyers - raises disturbing questions about how the criminal justice system deals with very young witnesses.

Dr Michele Elliott, of children's charity Kidscape, said: 'This adversarial way of questioning children is outrageous. Of course a barrister can confuse a four-year-old. She will have found it a searing experience.'
rape

A court drawing of the four-year-old girl giving evidence by video link to the Old Bailey.

Barbara Esam, of the NSPCC, said: 'Some children who have not been properly prepared for the impact of giving evidence have gone on to show psychological and physical symptoms, including self-harming, bed-wetting and trouble at school.'

The cross-examination left the girl so upset that she later called the video room where she gave her evidence 'the evil room'.

The Crown Prosecution Service did not oppose the decision to allow her to be questioned because her testimony was the basis of the case. Without her there would have been no prosecution.

It was November 2007 when she first told her foster carer the man had touched her. She was two at the time.

But when a female detective asked if she had been abused, the girl shook her head. It was two months later, during a meeting with child psychiatrist Margaret DeJong that she gave a full account.

During that meeting in January 2008, she made a series of startling revelations,saying she 'hated' Baby P's stepfather and that he had hurt her.

Dr DeJong told the court: 'She said "He hurt me with his willy". She said it happened lots of times. She said she had told him to stop but that he never did.'

Police gave her a full medical examination. A video of the subsequent interview was played to the courtroom in which the giggling three-year-old played 'shops' and even hide-and-seek with police.

She told police: 'He got hurt me (sic). I was sleeping, he woke me up... He was being naughty again... I was in my 'jamas ( pyjamas). He was lying down... Like penguins do.'

Asked if she had said anything to him - she replied simply that she had said: 'Don't do it.'

For the cross-examination the judge and lawyers removed their horsehair wigs before speaking to her. She answered their questions through the video link.

Bernard Richmond QC, who defended Peter's stepfather, asked her if she understood 'fibs'.

Mr Richmond asked her to remember her November 2007 police meeting when she shook her head when asked about abuse. The girl fell silent when the defence lawyer asked her why this was so.

Mr Richmond persisted, firing questions at her until, finally wrongfooted, she appeared to give the answer he wanted. 'He never touched you, did he? Did he?' the barrister asked.

There was silence in the courtroom until, moments later, she gave a tiny shake of her head.

Her almost imperceptible response was seized upon. 'Was it something someone told you to say? Was it something you made up?' Mr Richmond asked.

After a long pause she replied: 'I just....' and then fell silent again.

Mr Richmond said: 'I have to ask you one more time, he didn't touch you, did he? We have to have an answer, he didn't touch you, did he?

'I have to wait until I get your answer, so I can't ask any more questions. He didn't touch you, did he?'

After a five-minute break. Mr Richmond then continued, asking the child: 'What is truth?' She grew upset, wiping her face with her hands, and the barrister was unable to get any further answers.

Paul Mendelle, QC, defending Baby P's mother, saw his questions met by nods, shrugs and silences from the little girl.

Prosecutor Sally O'Neill QC said the girl had simply been confused by their complex questions, and was too upset to describe her ordeal.

Police fear her courtroom experience may have caused her untold psychological damage, on top of the trauma of the rape itself.

A senior police source said: 'We hope this will trigger a re-examination of how young witnesses are handled. It's something we will push for.'

Wizard said...

As abhorrent as this case is it is just the tip of the iceberg as far as Haringey Council’s social services are concerned. I suspect also that Haringey is not alone in their catalogue of errors.

I think children up and down the country are being killed by optimism. By this I mean social workers want to make families work, they want to see the family pull together and get through difficult times and against all the odds they are perpetually optimistic that the family unit will work. They don’t want to believe the worse of people and can’t even believe the truth when it comes out.

This is not just an error on the part of professionals - friends, neighbours and family members miss all the clues because the truth is somehow in their minds too terrible to contemplate.

It appears optimism kills – in Haringey – and no doubt elsewhere.

Wizard said...

It appears optimism kills – in Haringey – and no doubt elsewhere.

Today’s Mail front page gives food for thought.

It leads with Maddy at six? And includes a large photograph of how she might look today.

Right next to this is the headline “ordeal in court for rape girl aged 4.” Hmmm.

bath theory said...

Suggested wording to ask the media to act in a way that represents the child Madeleine and not the parents. Easily sent by e-mail

Dear Sir/Madam

I would like you to truly represent the voice of Madeleine and ask the parents these questions. Most of mainland Europe know the inconsistencies and yet here in Britain these issues such as the Gaspar family and Smith family evdience is conveniently hushed up. You have not even interviewed the police man in charge who has higlighted the immense amount of inconsistencies.

You are 'respected' journalists - please investigate. It is your duty to represent your viewers and surely represent the 3yr old girl who vanished NOT the parents.

Questions you SHOULD ask the parents should run along these lines please...

Can I ask you Kate how could you wash Madeliene's cuddle cat toy when her smell was on it? To me and other's watching that act seems like you are washing away and distancing yourself from your own daughter. Why wash away her smell ?

Gerry, why did you initially say you entered the front door that night but then change it to the patio doors?

Gerry is it true that you used a blue tennis holdall on that holiday and it went missing ?

Gerry, It is widely reported that you both did not go out and search for Madeleine the night she apparently went missing. I find that strange. Can I ask why complete strangers felt compelled to search and you both stayed in to ring people at home?

Further to my last point did you tell your friends and family that the shutters had been broken into?
eg Kate, Is it true the lady upstairs asked if she should call the police and you mentioned that you had already done that even though you hadn't?

Another thing that intrigues me Gerry about you is that when you wrote your blog you barely mentioned Madeleine. Why?

When did you become aware that the fund monies were being used to fund your mortgage.

The police dogs Eddie and Keela seemed to detect odour and blood relating to Madeleine. what are your thoughts on that now Kate?

Kate, as a mother I also find it odd that you ran out of the apartment and said something like 'They've taken her' What did you mean by that and why didn't you take the littole ones with you at that moment?

One visual that I keep thinking about is how joyful you seemed just one week after her disappearance when you departed the church. How was it that you could walk out smiling like that?

Many find it suspicious that you did not return to carry out a reconstruction when traditionally these prove very helpful at clarifying events, Can you explain why when your daughter was still missing you did not bother to do that?

What is your relationship with the other members of your holiday group ?

Do you remember the bath time that evening. Bathing 3 children is usually a stressful task after a long day. What can you rememeber about your last bathtime with Madeleine ?

Please start to balance this story. I am a professional in a caring profession and believe this story has harmed many a child in the UK due to the way the parents have been seen to have been able to have controlled the media.

In Britain today it should not be that a professional couple can get away with being properly questioned & quizzed by the country's media in this way. It is not too late to ASK the QUESTIONS the public and viewers want asked.

Di said...

Good evening all

Gerry left the apt and bumped into JW, Rachael says Gerry returned shortly after Jane.

So Jane would have had to have walked past Gerry and Jes twice but neither saw her.

I think I am reading it correctly.




What happened on May 3rd, 2007 between 21.00 and 22.00pm according to witness statements given to the Policia Judiciaria on May 4th and 11th, 2007.

20.55 – 21.00
David Payne 4/5/07 Concerning yesterday evening, he states that he, his wife and his mother-in-law arrived at the restaurant at around 8.55pm. According to what he remembers, when they arrived, all the members of the group were present, apart from the children, who were in bed.
Rachael Oldfield 11/5/07 it would be around 20H55, the PAYNE family - David, Fiona and DIANE - arrived. About a minute before the PAYNEs arrived, her husband MATTHEW got up from the table and said he was going to go, taking the opportunity "to listen" to the children. She states that, according to those what they [the Paynes] told her, MATTHEW passed them on his way out.
Diane Webster 11/5/07 they only managed to get to Restaurant around 21.00.
- Asked, she adds that she went to the restaurant in the company of her daughter and son-in-law.
- Asked directly if someone had gone to her apartment to call them (herself and the PAYNE couple) for dinner the witness said no.
- Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.
- That night she judges to have arrived at the restaurant close to 21:00, in the company of the PAYNE couple.
- That, at that time, the whole group were at the restaurant. The witness did not recall, but thinks that perhaps Gerald and MATT had not been in the restaurant along with the other members of the group.
- In this regard, asked specifically whether, on the journey to the restaurant, if they had passed either of the two individuals described in the preceding paragraph, she answered categorically not.

21.00 – 21.05
Kate McCann 4/5/07 Thus, at around 9pm, her husband went to the apartment to make sure the twins, as well as Madeleine, were OK, then he went back to the restaurant. Her husband said that the children were doing well and that he had bumped into the person with whom he had played tennis, a person who has two children. At the same time, one of the group of friends, Russell, went to see his children, without checking on the interviewee's children.
Matthew Oldfield 4/5/07 That the last to arrive at the restaurant was the couple David and Fiona. That the latter arrived at the restaurant at around 9pm.
Rachael Oldfield 4/5/07 Her husband Matthew, went to look for David Payne and Fiona Payne. At around 9pm, the couple arrived two or three minutes after Matthew.
Jane Tanner 4/5/07 Around 9pm, her husband (Russell O’Brien) arrived at the restaurant. He had succeeded in getting **** to sleep. Because of the late arrival of David Payne, Fiona Payne and Diane Webster, the meal booked for 8.30pm, did not start until 9pm, when the Payne family arrived.
Russell O’Brien 4/5/07 At around 9pm, they had all ordered their meals. (..)He recalls that Matthew Oldfield left the restaurant at shortly after 9pm to check the children.

21.05 – 21.10
Gerry McCann 4/5/07 Thus, at 9.05pm, the interviewee entered the room (apartment?) using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's room and noted that the twins and Madeleine were OK. He then took several minutes going to the toilet. He left the apartment and bumped into someone with whom he had played tennis and had a brief conversation. He then returned to the Tapas.
Matthew Oldfield 4/5/07 That around 9.05pm, he went to the area of the apartments. Notably to the area near the windows of all the children's bedrooms. That he did not hear any noise. That he considered that all the children were sleeping. That all the children's bedroom windows were closed, notably the windows that gave access to the fourth apartment, that occupied by Madeleine. That after this check, he returned to the restaurant, saying that all the children were asleep.
Gerry McCann 11/5/07 At 21H05 MATTHEW returned, the time at which the deponent left the table to go to check how his children were.

21.10 – 21.15
Matthew Oldfield 4/5/07 However, Gerry, Madeleine's father, went to the area of the apartments to check for himself if the children were asleep. That Gerry allegedly went into his apartment and that he checked to make sure that Madeleine and the twins were sleeping in their bedroom, where it was quite dark. The bedroom door was half-open. That five minutes later, Gerry came back to the group in the restaurant.
Gerry McCann 4/5/07 It is noted that when one of the members of the group, JANE, went to her apartment to see her children, at around 9.10/9.15, at a distance of about 50 metres, in the road leading to the club, she saw a person carrying a child in pyjamas.
Jane Tanner 4/5/07 The interviewee recall that, around 9.10pm, Gerald McCann left the restaurant to go to the apartment to see the children.
Gerry McCann 11/5/07 Following on, he returned to the TAPAS between 21h10 and 21h15 the dinner having gone as normal.

21.15 – 21.20
Jane Tanner 4/5/07 Five minutes later the interviewee left, in her turn, to go to her own apartment to check on her children. She saw Gerald McCann talking to a British citizen named Jez. She spotted a man who was going along at a fair speed with a child in his arms with the child in pyjamas without a blanket, which attracted her attention. The interviewee only saw the man from the side with the child in his arms. She noticed this person exactly at the moment when she walked past Gerald and Jez[Jeremy Wilkins].
Rachael Oldfield 4/5/07 After placing their orders, at around 9.15pm, Gerry McCann went to check, only his apartment. He was held up for nearly 10 minutes because, he said, he had been chatting with Jes about tennis. Today there was a tournament which they both had to compete in. During Gerry's absence, the waiters started to bring the food. Jane was also absent to check her apartment. Gerry returned shortly after Jane.
Kate McCann 4/5/07 Later, a member of the group, Russell's partner Jane, saw, when she went to her apartment at around 9.15pm, about 50 metres away, on the perimeter road of the club, a long-haired person with a child in his arms, walking very quickly.

21.20 – 21.25
Rachael Oldfield 11/5/07 At 21H20 they began to dine.

21.25 - 21.30
Russell O’Brien 4/5/07 Then Gerry came back at around 9.25/9.30 and they started to eat the main course.
Matthew Oldfield 4/5/07 At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the fourth apartment (room?), that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was half-open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. That the light in question was from an artificial source but not inside the bedroom, rather from outside through the bedroom window. That it seemed to him that the shutters of the bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open.
Matthew Oldfield 11/5/07 The question asked, he relates that he thinks he returned to Tapas between 21h25 and 21h30, telling the others in the group that he found everything within normality in the residential block.

21.30 – 21.35
Matthew Oldfield 4/5/07 As normal, dinner began at 9.30pm.
Kate McCann 4/5/07 Around 9.30pm was the time the interviewee should have gone to see her children, but her friend Matt (a member of the group) had just done a check in his apartment then gone to the interviewee's. He had gone into the apartment through a glass door at the side and once inside had not gone into the children's bedroom. He only looked through the door, and did not hear any noise. He went back to the restaurant and said that everything was fine.
Gerry McCann 4/5/07 At 9.30pm, a friend, MATT, (a member of the group) went to his apartment where his own children were, and he went through the interviewee's apartment, going in through a patio door at the side of the building, which was always open. He went into the apartment. He saw the twins and he checked if Madeleine was OK. Everything was normal, the shutters closed and the bedroom door half-open as usual.Then MATT went back to the restaurant.
Rachael Oldfield 4/5/07 Between the starters and the main course, at around 9.30pm, her husband Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien both went to check on the children. Kate was also planning to go and see the children, but they told her it was no trouble, that they would go and check. Kate, therefore, stayed at the restaurant. Four or five minutes later the interviewee's husband came back after having checked his apartment. He also checked the one where Madeleine was.
Gerry McCann 11/5/07 At 21h30 he drew KATE's attention to the fact that it was time for her to go to see the children, MATTHEW having immediately volunteered to substitute given that she was talking. Three to four minutes later MATHEW returned saying only "it is all calm", he having entered by the rear door, given that he did not have the key and it was usual for them to enter in that way.

21.35 – 21.40
Russell O’Brien 4/5/07 At around 9.35/9.40, taking advantage of the lull between two courses, the informant left the restaurant with Matthew to check the children.

21.40 – 21.45
Rachael Oldfield 11/5/07 By 21H40/21H45, when they were at dinner, Jane said that he was going to replace RUSSELL so that he could eat, since she had already eaten. About five minutes later RUSSELL returned to the table saying that his daughter E**e was sick and had vomited, [he] starting to dine afterwards.

21.45 – 21.50

21.50 – 21.55
Matthew Oldfield 11/5/07 he clarifies that that news had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by Kate McCann subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well. The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50.

21.55 – 22.00
Russell O’Brien 4/5/07 At around 9.55, he went back to the restaurant where his food had been waiting for 5 or 10 minutes. All the other adults had finished.

22.00 – 22.05
Kate McCann 4/5/07 At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Gerry McCann 4/5/07 At 10pm, Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment, using her key and saw that the bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open. The doors were locked except the one at the back as already noted above.
David Payne 4/5/07 Towards 10pm, Kate went to her apartment, and less than 5 minutes later, she came back to the restaurant, breaking down, reporting that Madeleine had disappeared.
Matthew Oldfield 4/5/07 At around 10pm, Kate, Madeleine's mother, went to her apartment to check on her children. She came back totally shocked, shouting, saying that Madeleine was no longer in her bedroom. At that time all the adults were in the restaurant.
Rachael Oldfield 4/5/07 At around 10pm, Kate McCann went on her own to check her children. She came back to the restaurant in tears and told us that Madeleine had disappeared.
Russell O’Brien 4/5/07 At a round 10pm, Kate Healy went out to check her children in her apartment. When she came back, she came towards our table, shouting that Madeleine had disappeared.
Diane Webster 11/5/07 Therefore, she can only say with precision that, at 22.00 Kate McCann returned to the restaurant, seemingly in panic, communicating to others the fact that of Madeleine's disappearance.
Gerry McCann 11/5/07 Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house.








+/-

+/-

by Kazlux

Di said...

This is interesting watch the body language. Problems with their marriage imo, yes.

link to Oprah discussing Kate & Gerry's marriage

viv said...

Gerry left the apt and bumped into JW, Rachael says Gerry returned shortly after Jane.

So Jane would have had to have walked past Gerry and Jes twice but neither saw her.

I think I am reading it correctly.


Di, You are reading it correctly, very well spotted. I think Goncalo suggests Jane could have turned off along the walkway to go and check her kids and thus not have been seen by Gerry and Jes. I think it is more likely she just did not make any checks at all, she simply returned to the apt later on about 9.50 so that OB could miraculously appear back at the table when Maddie had been got rid of.

But what do people think about the Attorney General being asked to investigate facebook for commenting on the rape of the little girl case and having to give the defendants false names to ensure they got a fair trial. Thanks to the efforts of Kate and Gerry in remaining in the press/3 As etc that is not possible, so is any trial possible?

viv said...

Jurors in the rape trial were not told of the defendants' previous convictions over his death, because lawyers feared that public revulsion over that crime was so great that they would not receive a fair trial.

They were not even told the couple's true names. Instead they were tried using false names, a step normally reserved for gangland 'supergrasses' whose lives are considered at risk.
Tributes laid in the garden of remembrance in memory of Baby P at the Islington Crematorium, East Finchley, London.



Court orders still prevent newspapers or broadcasters from revealing their identities. The couple have both received death threats.

Lawyers have asked the Attorney General to investigate a 'name and shame' campaign which led to their names and photographs appearing on hundreds of websites, including the social networking site Facebook, alongside calls for them to face vigilante-style 'justice'.


The above is exactly what has happened in the McCann case and with Tony Bennett leading the battle cry for vigilante style justice although of late he seems to have gone pretty quiet.

If the Madeleine case continues to be played out in books films and the media I really wonder if this is exactly what the McCanns have always been after. And people keep demanding it is all in our press!

Di said...

Hi Viv

I agree, could Kate & Gerry have a fair trial, personally I don't think so. They are probably the most known couple in Europe.

Viv

You have mail.

x

viv said...

Having just checked 3 As I am sure I spoke to soon!

Di said...

This is interesting

link to Maddie fund- a fake

viv said...

Hiya Di, maybe this is the reality of their campaign.

I have just checked both email a/cs and do not have a mail from you?

xx

Di said...

Hi Viv

I have sent it again but I think you got the gist.

x

hope4truth said...

Hello All

I am all for justice and a fair trial but how the hell can a defence lawyer subject a 4 year old child to cross examination and make her poor little life an even more frightening thing...

A Child who accuses someone of Rape and is then asked by a Dr if she was abused (how is she supposed ot know what that means)? Then sent away... For a child to then to act out with toys what had happend to her and no doubt be looked at by a Dr to prove the Rape...

So along comes a defence lawyer just to make sure the child is really terified "just doing his job" what kind of country is this is the medical evidence not enough to prove this poor little might was telling the truth???

Once again the Abuser is portrayed as the victim and the poor child is left to deal with it...

Cut his balls off with a blunt knife throw him in prison and on his release tag him for life this man deserves nothing but no doubt will get more support than the girl he raped....

Baby Peter was murdered by him and his mother the fact they tortuered him for over a year before he finaly died should mean hard labour and life but I guess they will both be free to do it all over again in a few years!!!!!!!!

viv said...

Hi Hope

It is difficult to conceive that in this so called modern and civilised country we can so cruelly allow a little child to be re-victimised in that way, just so that her rapist can get his rights to a fair trial.

I think the Judge should at the very least have severely limited the questioning of her and when she was obviously very distressed and unresponsive stopped it completely.

But there is just no way a little child like this should ever have been allowed to make legal history in this way. When they have her video testimony being expertly questioned by a psychiatrist and the medical evidence that really should have been enough. Anyone who is constantly forced to relive trauma becomes ill, the more they have to do so. Let us hope this forces a further change in the law to better protect vulnerable witnesses. Let us also hope this man suffers in custody just like he has tortured at least two tiny infants.

Solitary confinement to protect him from other prisoners for the rest of his days, should be pretty unpleasant for him and always living with the fear one of them will get at him anyway as they often do, as in Huntley, Sutcliffe etc.

viv said...

A Prison Service spokesman points out it is impossible to always prevent such an attack..Whilst I suppose we should not applaud such awful violence, one can certainly see it through the eyes of other prisoners in being forced to live with such people and it is does seem like justice that such child abusers have to suffer in this way!

Huntley scalded in prison attack

Huntley was convicted of the murder in December 2003
Child killer Ian Huntley has been attacked with boiling water by another inmate at the high security Wakefield Prison, in West Yorkshire.

Grimsby-born Huntley was attacked on Wednesday on the health care wing of the jail, which houses some of the most dangerous prisoners in the country.

Prison sources confirmed Huntley had been the victim of the attack and he was being treated at the site.

Huntley murdered Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells in Soham in August 2002.

A spokeswoman for the Prison Service said: "We can confirm a prisoner on the health care wing at HMP Wakefield was, on 14 September, attacked with boiling water by another prisoner.

It's impossible to prevent incidents of this nature occasionally happening

Prison Service spokeswoman

"He is being treated by health care staff at the prison and an internal investigation has been launched.

"While staff monitor prisoners carefully, high security prisoners are, by nature, a particularly challenging group to manage and while staff are always vigilant, it's impossible to prevent incidents of this nature occasionally happening."

Schoolgirls Holly and Jessica were both aged 10 when they were murdered in Soham, Cambridgeshire.

Ian Huntley was convicted of their murders at the Old Bailey in December 2003.

Wizard said...

Todays Sunday Express front page the tunnels of PDL - red herring or possibility.

Could these tunnels be the first hiding place of Madeleine?

Well the Smith’s believe they saw Gerry walking towards the church and beach area with a child.

Unpleasant smells were reported by worshipers in the church for a number of weeks before the smell went away.

Shortly after M went missing the McCanns had the keys to the church and parked their car around the back out of sight of the road.

They could well have moved the body at anytime after that.

The question is how were the McCann aware of the existence of the tunnels and how easy are they to access from the church or anywhere else for that matter?

Do local guide books have this type of information in them – something a tourist might read?

Why were these tunnels never search properly with cadaver dogs?

viv said...

Hi Wiz

I would be very surprised if these tunnels have not been searched and I think it is probably just another gimmicky headline. Particularly given Rosie has been on about them for at least a year now. Even stating the police were keeping Maddie in there alive!

Did you notice that just like Bennett they have now written a book although judging by the price £7.95 it is a proper book. I wonder who funded that because it is not so easy or cheap to just get a book published! It seems to me there are some more costs being washed in the accounts with the Mcs claiming they spent a staggering £100K on translating the PJ file. I don't know how do couples manage who do not have a fund of public money to fritter away! On the gossip front about Rosie and Bum, it seems they have fallen out and Bum has left the forum. Did she get full acknowledgment for her contribution to the book:-))

I am seriously struggling to think how anyone could fill a book with reasons suggesting the Mcs are innocent! I would find it very simple to do just the opposite with the benefit of the DVD file.

x

viv said...

A female reporter on BBC just really stressed the word "might" look when announcing the new image of Madeleine.

It is all a bit of a farce really isn't it, especially if they are going to tell us she is in those tunnels, I cannot help but wonder if this is what it is all leading up to. Has Gerry arranged for his new detectives to make this grim discovery. I have read that after two years it is unlikely any body can yield forensic trances.

mandarinn said...

Good evening Viv & all
I remenber during the investigation almost on the begining the tunels and a repair of it that was done near the church was investigated, but nothing was found. I am not sure but i think it didn't envolved research dogs.
have a nice sunday all! Here the warm weather started for today 24º are anounced :)

Di said...

Hi Viv & all

I have been thinking the same thing Viv, are they going to suddenly find Madeleines body and blame the death on the abductor. I don't think GA will give up though, he maintains he has uncovered more evidence, although what this is is anyones guess.

The fact that Kate & Gerry have turned their attentions back to Portugal, after leading us half way round the world, is extremely suspicious. They never do anything without a reason.

Mandarinn

Lucky you having warm weather.

I remember those searches in the early days also roadworks were investigated and like you say nothing was found.

Di said...

http://tv1.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?t=Antigo-inspector-da-PJ-quer-reabrir-processo-de-Madeleine-McCann.rtp&headline=20&visual=9&article=217394&tm=8&rss=0

Antigo inspector da PJ quer reabrir processo de Madeleine McCann
Gonçalo Amara, quer reabrir o processo de Madeleine McCann e acredita que isso acontecerá em breve. O antigo inspector da PJ juntou-se a outros polícias reformados para avaliar as diligências que não foram feitas para apurar o que acontecer à menina que desapareceu há dois anos na Praia da Luz.
2009-05-03 14:04:35

Former PJ Inspector wants to re-open the Madeleine McCann process

Gonçalo Amaral, wants to re-open the Madeleine McCann process and believes that this will happen soon. The former PJ Inspector has joined with other retired police officers to assess what was not done to find out what happened to the little girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz 2 years ago.

Well that would be good news.

Di said...

More interesting news from Joana.





For video see http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/

*transcript*

Ocean Club Employee was pressured by Kate McCann to tell what she knows

Voice Over: What she saw, what she knows, and what could have this employee of the Ocean Club said to raise such an interest by the McCanns? Francisca, a fictitious name, was persistently approached at the end of the last year by the ‘spearhead’ of the couple in Portugal. Susan Hubbard the wife of the Anglican Father [Haynes], in Praia da Luz, went various times to the tourist complex, to the house and even left notes in the mail box. She was determined to put her [the employee] in contact with Kate.

‘Francisca’ – She told me: ‘Kate wants to make contact with you, because she wants to make you questions, etc...’. And I said: ‘What questions? Because there’s a detail, at the time I was on my break. I had three days off, do you understand it?’ So, what I have seen, what I have not seen, who was there, who was not, I don’t know.

Voice Over: This witness might be key in the investigation, since she lives near to the church – the place where the former coordinator of the investigation suspects the Madeleine’s body. The worker for the position she occupied, controlled a great part of the conversations and faces that appeared in Praia da Luz during the long months of the investigation. The insistency of Susan, so that ‘Francisca’ gave her personal email address arouse suspicions.

‘Francisca’ – She wanted to get in my ‘site’, to see who I was talking to or who I was in contact.

Voice Over: The contact with Kate happened a month later, via SMS. In the texted messages, Madeleine’s mother, warned that family members would go to Praia da Luz in the following days, and that she would be contacted personally. The approach was made, not by the mother nor by Gerry’s sister, but by Arthur Bailey [fictional name?], a detective hired by the family, who was once an inspector of the Scotland Yard.

‘Francisca’ – He made me some questions, what were my impressions, lots of things…

Journalist – And do you believe that they were suspecting that you…

‘Francisca’ – That I knew more than what I was saying.. That was my impression…

Journalist – …That you were working as an informer to someone?

‘Francisca’ – Exactly.

Voice Over – From the talks that she had with her colleagues ‘Francisca’ believes that she was the only Ocean Club employee target of the private detectives and of the couple. She doesn’t have doubts that Madeleine is dead and she hopes to explain why to Gonçalo Amaral, now that the former inspector is committed in reopening the process.

Xklamation.

This witness might be key in the investigation, since she lives near to the church – the place where the former coordinator of the investigation suspects that Madeleine’s body passed through. - sorry for that, it was a rough transcript

Di said...

I wonder just how many witnesses were got at.

bath theory said...

Charade news number 1
Link to Cutting Edge programme that will go out this week
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/madeleine-was-here

Charade news number 2
They have shown us their end game. After searching for hours and hours through the files the 'missing piece' of info is found and the body is finally 'retrieved' by an retired scotland yard policeman. They believe this will get them off. As discussed on the DX all those moons ago.

Charade news number 3
Don't worry they won't get away with it.

bath theory said...

Good Morning All

Now if you were Mrs Healy and the mother of Kate would you let this continue knowing what you know now.

I would say to my daughter enough is enough go and face the music and let me look after the children. You have harmed too many people and this has to stop. Tell the truth once and for all. This charade is damaging other little childrne who have parents who harm them for fun.

I would certainly have rung up the police inspector Amaral and asked him to fill me in as to why my daughter and son in law might have done it.

They don't need to ring though do they. They know things like the Smith family evidence and the false Tanner one that acts as an alibi. If he had not been seen by the Smiths then JT would not have had to make the statement.

Come on Mrs Healey get you r daughter to speak to the police and answer those questions she evaded. Yes, she evaded questions despite your granddaughter having 'vanished'. Not too hard to work out is it.

viv said...

Hiya Di and Manndarin

I too remember it being said the area near the church and some road works etc were being searched, negative. But I don't actually remember it being said that old tunnels were being searched.

But I am afraid we cannot ignore that as a possibility. In a way it all makes sense, Madeleine's body has always been well hidden in those tunnels (although by whom, that bit does not make sense), after two years the flesh would have completely gone, so now Gerry is focussing back on that area. What has always seemed very odd is the contrived and very slow way he decides to conduct searches, as though he has all the time in the world. What normal set of parents would need to wait two years to think oh I know we will look at where she went missing. It is not exactly rocket science. Particularly with a couple who have spent hundreds of thousands on getting advice!

viv said...

BT, Di and All

I certainly agree if I was Susan Healy I would have spoken directly with Goncalo Amaral to assess the validity of what he has to say about what happened to my granddaughter.

If he knows more than he is saying and wants to get the process re-opened because Maddie's body is right there in PDL perhaps then good luck to him. But I still have to say his explanations of what supposedly happened in his recent documentary do not make any sense at all.

I also agree that if I was Susan Healy I would be saying to Kate, go and face the music. I will look after the twins and make sure they come and visit you. But you have caused more than enough trouble and hurt more than enough people, including me, with your conduct in trying to get away with it and it is time to sort your life out and deal with this once and for all.

I think what Kate knows is truly terrible and I can understand her fear in one respect but the public are going to see her as a very wicked woman who does not love her children, or care about their welfare if she continues this charade. She will also need special protection in custody. If I was Kate I would come clean, face it and be very humble and very sorry.

x

viv said...

The title of the Channel 4 film Madelein Was Here is pretty ominous and conjures up all sorts of horrors. I notice it is getting aired four times. I am sure Gerry must be pretty pleased with that.

Two years to get detectives who are going to actually find Madeleine, and will they?

It certainly does look as though some new suspect is going to get the Murat treatment from Team McCann. God help them!

viv said...

The exchange with the witness that Joana reports is very odd. I have noticed many times there was a great urgency in the McCanns behaviour from about October/November last year. I think that must link to the police making a further breakthrough in the case.

Kate warning this witness, family members would come to PDL would seem to indicate she did not wish to be a part of this. Perhaps? There is a lot of reasonable suspicion around the conduct of the Hubbards. I watched a video put on 3 As last night where Fr Hubbard studiously avoided answering the question and do you think the McCanns are innocent. My impression from this was that he knows they are in some way involved in what happened to Madeleine but nevertheless wish to recover her. It actually seemed to fit with my own theory that Maddie was removed alive. Did the McCanns facilitate OB or Payne doing something terrible to Maddie?

viv said...

Di said...

I wonder just how many witnesses were got at.


I would say as many as they possibly could, Di, that was the whole remit of M3/Hogan International from the very outset and clearly produced, Cooper Man. Then the listening devices placed on Murat's car and Malinka car getting firebombed "fala". I would not put anything past this criminal outfit that Gerry/DG Man engaged at huge costs.

But DG man now seems to have left them high and dry, did the British Police have a chat with him?

bath theory said...

I feel a strong sense that time will show that these two will go down in history as something we all believe they are.

I see it as being inevitable. Imagine how the people of Rothley as a whole must now be viewing them. I am sure the canny folk of the East Midlands village are not fooled by them one little bit.

How long can one's inner organs keep on operating with such a heavy mental burden ? No more than 5 yrs me thinks. I would love to meet him and look him straight in the eye. Not sure I would waste my words mind !!

bath theory said...

You see Mrs Healey - respectfully I think you know the game is up but you just have to believe that your daughter is innocent and her actions have not had a knock on affect.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/

Article: Suddenly, in a past May

...The Ocean Club member of staff: “Their daughter disappeared on a Thursday and on Monday he was already playing tennis with his friends, very happy. She would go jogging, and the journalists all went after her. She did it on purpose.” ...

Cândida Domingos, a member of staff at the primary school: “There was never a tear. It’s very suspicious for a mother who loses a child to be in television talking at one hundred percent. I think she is more of a suspect than him.” ...

Another local witness: “They’re great actors. I don’t know how they missed the Oscar. After two days, my theory wasn’t that of other people anymore. I walked by Gerry McCann and he was laughing his head off, on the phone.” ...

Who is there left to impress except themselves. The Pope does not have to go around telling everyone he is Catholic does he?

viv said...

Hiya BT

It is hard to resist the suggestion that she is every bit as bad as him. Sometimes I just cannot make too much sense of this case. Did they both actually plot to get rid of their daughter and make a huge pile of money out of it? That would put them in the same league as people like the Wests who it is agreed were just as evil as each other.

When you read live witnesses like above stating how Kate led the press like a pied piper it is just too awful to contemplate sometimes.

viv said...

Apparently SIC TV in Portugal are hosting the Oprah show at midnight tonight. I wonder how the Portuguese media are going to play this. Is it a case of let us show all the McCann media rubbish and people can judge for themselves just how innocent they are. That is a pretty good strategy!
http://sic.aeiou.pt/online/noticias/pais/especiais/procura+de+madeleine/pai-da-menina-admite-que-dinheiro-do-fundo-pode-esgotar-se-no-final-do-ano.htm

I am just going to visit Joana's blog I think she has the OPRAH show on her blog!


I found this interesting article on their webpage:

Gerry McCann admits

Of Maddie's Fund money can end up at the end of the year
The father of Madeleine McCann has admitted that the money from the fund to search for her daughter may run out at the end of the year to be spent at the pace that has been until now.



Special
Madeleine McCann
The British girl disappeared in Praia da Luz, in Lagos on the night of 3 MaioInfografia

Maddie, one year after
The story and the protagonists
"Do not dry in the coming months, but probably the occasion of the end of the year, the pace at which we use it," said Gerry McCann in an exclusive interview to the newspaper Portugal News "that the agency Lusa had access.




The monetary fund "Find Madeleine" attracted some 2.5 million pounds since it was created, soon after the disappearance of Madeleine, a "resort" in Praia da Luz, Lagos, in May 2007.




"There is money in the fund," said Gerry, who said it could not provide the exact amount, stressing only that the family has spent and spent "big money" in an attempt to find the child.




The borrowing more money is now being considered as an option to boost the fund and ensure the interest in the search for Madeleine, said the father of the girl.




Gerry McCann was recently in the Algarve to take part in a documentary about the disappearance of her daughter, which will be broadcast on British television station Channel Four.




At a time when approaching the second anniversary of the disappearance of Madeleine, the child's parents have launched a new campaign in search of possible witnesses to the disappearance of her daughter.




As part of the campaign posters were displayed in Lagos and Praia da Luz, but the residents were not pleased with the relaunch of the case and some came to ask the McCann family to leave the town "in peace".




Madeleine, then three years old, disappeared on 3 May 2007, while sleeping with the two twin brothers, younger, in an apartment in a tourist resort in Praia da Luz, Algarve.




The child's parents - Gerry McCann, medical cardiologist, and Kate McCann, general practitioner - were made defendants in September 2007, before being acquitted in July 2008 for lack of evidence to support the hypothesis, preferred by the investigation of accidental death of the girl. The family always said to be convinced that she had been kidnapped.




Until now the authorities have failed to know what really happened, the prosecutor dropped the case, it can be reopened if new data emerge on the disappearance of Madeleine.






Lusa

viv said...

I did not get the Oprah show on Jo's blog just a couple of Pt guys chatting away and gawd knows what about. But did get this. I suppose legal training does make you look at the evidence or lack of it in this way!

May 04, 2009

Rogério Alves: “There is no evidence that she is dead”



The McCanns’ lawyer considers the couple’s hope to find their daughter “normal” and asserts that there is no “friction” between the couple and Portuguese police

“There is no evidence that Madeleine has died”, states Rogério Alves, Gerry and Kate McCann’s lawyer, to tvi24.pt. Therefore, he defends, “it’s normal that they hope to find her alive”. The attorney also recalls that the process was archived, but the essential is lacking: “to find the little girl”.

When questioned whether the indications that the English dogs detected meant nothing, Rogério Alves is assertive in his reply: “That’s nothing but fiction and I have to deal with reality. Those are interpretations, without nexus, of loose aspects, that obviously do not have the virtuality that people want to attribute to them”. Therefore, “it doesn’t deserve to lose much time with it”.

The dogs’ empire

The media’s insistence on that point of the investigation even leads the McCanns’ defendant to use some irony: “I think that canine fidelity to those indications is funny. It’s the dogs’ empire. A sort of investigation in the hands of dogs. It makes no sense whatsoever”.

But he asserts, so that no doubts are left: “There is no friction, no incompatibility between the Portuguese police and the couple”. “Everything relevant that the parents find out will always be communicated” to the authorities.

The fact that the case was archived “without answers” is not an exclusive of Portugal. “The police didn’t find out what happened, but that could have happened in England, in France or in the United States. Many times, the authorities don’t find out”, he explains to tvi24.pt. And he adds: “I have no doubts that the police did what it could, but there are missing children’s cases, and other cases, that take years to be solved”.

No special treatment

Rogério Alves also denies that his clients “had any special treatment”, given by authorities, and justifies: “They were made arguidos, wrongly from my point of view, and wrongly from the point of view of the National Director of the Polícia Judiciária, but they were. Then, later on, the investigation progressed and it was concluded that there were no indications to accuse them”.

“To me”, the lawyer proceeds, “Gerry and Kate are no longer the arguidos in the process. They are a father and a mother who suffered, like any father or mother knows, one of the most painful things that can happen. That is how I see them. Everything else is the phenomenon in the media”.

Stopped process

For the couple’s defendant, the possible reopening of the process has a “secondary value for the parents”. “What is important, for them, is that new leads appear to help them to find their daughter. They are parents who have done everything, but really everything, to find her. If that happens to go through the reopening of the case, later on, great”, he defends.

Despite the process being “stopped in juridical terms”, Rogério Alves has no doubt whatsoever “that the Portuguese authorities investigate every apt lead that deserves to be investigated”.

“Imagine that today someone calls the police and says he saw the child. If the police thinks that the information is apt, they don’t need to file a request to reopen the process and to investigate. A preliminary data analysis is already a diligence”, he adds.

There may still be lawsuits

The issue is old, but it hasn’t been forgotten. Just like Maddie. The lawyer confirms that “the possibility to sue some Portuguese media is still being studied”. “I don’t know whether that is going to happen or not, but it’s a scenario that has not been put aside yet”.

Concerning the possibility of suing former Polícia Judiciária inspector Gonçalo Amaral, Rogério Alves prefers not to reveal “anything about the dialogue” that he holds with his clients, and merely asserts that “what has to be done will be done”. “This case can only be understood under one light: there is a father and a mother who will fight until the end of their strength to find out what happened to their daughter and who keep the hope to find her alive, intact”, he concluded.


source: IOL Portugal Diário, 03.05.2009

viv said...

I have no doubts that the police did what it could, but there are missing children’s cases, and other cases, that take years to be solved”.

I wholeheartedly agree with this comments.

It is very interesting he will not affirmatively state that any legal action is being considered against Goncalo Amaral. Merely implying that possibility and other PT organisations are under review.

I still wonder if Goncalo is playing a clever game with the McCanns. He knows that what he put on that documentary is not the truth but wants to get them into court, to sue him, to get at the truth. But of course lawyers recognise what he is about and have to warn Kate and Gerry there is not much you can do!

viv said...

This sounds to me that Oprah was suitably challenging when the most ridiculous claim is made, there is no evidence that Maddie has come to any harm, well how about being missing from her family for two years and apparently in the hands of paedophiles, that sounds like enormous harm to me, permanent and irreparable even if they spoke the truth and Maddie could be recovered. Kate lives in a fantasy world:

when they said there is no evidence of maddie coming to any harm.
oprah asked was it wishful thinking or beign hopeful and kate said no its fact realy,
there is no eveidence of serious harm,
and that she feels maddie is close.

viv said...

This Stevo character on 3As has attacked me a number of times and when I challenged him he was in the US blatantly denied it and yet:
Definitely not one that can be trusted!
Stevo Post subject: Re: Kate & Gerry Were Officially Cleared - Oprah nowPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:11 pm

Mafia Boss

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:05 pm
Posts: 3258 AntiCS wrote:
Stevo: don't understand. Are you in the U.S. to watch this now?


Yes, I'm in the USA watching it live....and recording it to DVD.

viv said...

and people insist LP were useless, well this can be proved to be a downright lie.
“And I am assuming it is a slide open door, is that correct?”

Taken, hook, line and sinker! It is not possible to open a closed patio door from the outside and even if he had tried to do so, his fingerprints would have been all over the glass trying to slide it back!





Are they also saying the patio door was open, as in open and not just unlocked?

Taken from an excerpt of Matthew Oldfield's interview at Enderby.

4078 “And you said when you went in you went in through the patio door?”
Reply “Yeah”
4078 “Or the poolside door?”
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “How did you know to go through there?”
Reply “Well Kate said that that one was open”.
4078 “And when did she say that?”
Reply “When I offered to go and, erm, go and look”.
4078 “Okay”.
Reply “Because I said do you want me to check the kids and she said yeah the patio door is open”.
4078 “Okay”.
Reply “I mean, it was closed, it wasn’t sort of open”.
4078 “And I am assuming it is a slide open door, is that correct?”
Reply “Yeah”.
00.33.23 4078 “So you slid the door open?”
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “And you have walked through the apartment and you said there was a light on?”
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “A lamp, sorry, a table lamp?”

viv said...

blimey is he Sue Hubbard or Rev Hubbard ! So called little UK Stevo who clearly does not know the first thing about UK geography accents etc and is only able to keep on quoting US law...this man is one big phoney! And he staunchly supports Tony Bennett.

Post subject: Re: Kate & Gerry Were Officially Cleared - Oprah nowPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:28 pm

You're Nicked


Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:46 pm
Posts: 218
Location: USA If I remember correctly Stevo is in Canada and Canada has seen it already....

Di said...

Hi Viv & all

I did not see the Oprah interview, but have read some of the comments posted after the show. They are not very supportive towards the McCann's I notice, not probably what Kate & Gerry were expecting.

Something which I have read and thought odd. All holidaymakers who were in PDL, were asked to forward their photographs to LP who in turn would forward to PJ. Apparently this never happened, LP handed all photos to Gerry & Kate, why would this be?

I can understand why people think there was a cover up of sorts. The more details that are released it would appear the PJ were banging their heads against a brick wall.

viv said...

Hiya Di,

I would be amazed if LP just forwarded the photos to Kate and Gerry rather than the PJ and would need to see some pretty clear evidence of that before I could believe it.

I think LP were withholding some of the most serious information they got back from the PJ whilst Goncalo was in charge due to the serious leaks that were taking place. I am sure the prospect of the GASPARS statement being in the Daily Express etc filled them with horror because it would prevent any future trial, cause vigilante attacks etc.

We can see that on 24/10 that statement was forward to the PJ after Goncalo was removed and it is true to say there were no more leaks after that.

I think it helps to look at the comments in red in relation to the rapist who recently got convicted about the serious concerns as to whether there could be a fair trial when the case was being discussed on facebook etc. I am afraid this is not different to what is happening in the McCann case is it? And they already made absolutely certain they are very well known. In short they encourage discussion of the case, I fear that can only be for one reason.

xx

Di said...

Hi Viv

It is mentioned on GA Prime Ministers are not eternal thread.

Sorry I am useless at searching:o(

I have probably remembered incorrectly but I think it was something to do with D Levy.

3A's move so fast I can never keep up.

bath theory said...

Read this story and u understand how these peoples mind's work. This is the case 'inspired' by the McCann's monies - Karen Matthews the so called 'shameless' mum. In this article she makes no mention of the child... now who does that remind you of?

being http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090505/tuk-matthews-i-miss-sex-shops-and-coffee-dba1618.html

Di said...

Hi Bt

I read that earlier unbelievable.

From what I have read today BT, the Oprah interview has done Kate & Gerry more harm than good, according to foreign news.

Are we reporting these negative reports, of course not.

I think we need a wake up call in this country, we are lagging way behind, then again what's new.

When the truth is unfolded what then! UK picking up the pieces or the crumbs?

Di said...

Posted by Beachy 3A's

Whether or not the McCanns ultimately "get away with it" has never depended on what people think in the UK, but on what happens in Portugal.

I do not believe the Portuguese have proved themselves to be such fools in this as Brits have been.


Very interesting.

Di said...

Joana Morais

Good read, off now see you all tomorow.

by Paulo Sargento

Two years have been completed after the disappearance of Madeleine Beth McCann, and we are led to believe that very little is known and a lot is yet to become known. Well, I have quite a different opinion: a lot is known already and there is still something to become known. But the post that I write today does not have the purpose to make a balance of the case, as these first lines might suggest. It does instead intend to unburden a few loose notes that, I believe, will very soon become the subject of deep analysis soon.

Firstly, a note concerning the health state of Kate McCann.

As I have already mentioned, there have been many rumours concerning Kate McCann’s emotional health. There were even rumours of an alleged suicide attempt. These rumours came from Her Majesty’s Land, from a source that usually doesn’t mess around. Of course I’m aware that the argument that I have just given is fallacious, inasmuch as the behavioural pattern of said source doesn’t guarantee the truth of the information. But the fact is that the information (true or not) arrived, as I had already mentioned, on a cold Friday night in December. Why do I return to information that I have held for a few months already? Because some indications concerning Kate McCann’s health state have been intensifying.

As a matter of fact, this issue of Kate’s depressive health state started being spread by her relatives and friends, namely during the period that followed the archiving of the process (late July 2008). From August 2008 onwards, Kate McCann started seldom appearing in public, with an almost full absence after Christmas. Her own mother stated that she felt lonely and rejected, even by her own husband, Gerry McCann. She was never again seen jogging or walking the twins. This matter increases in pertinence if we pay attention to the fact that Kate is apparently thinner, a fact that is visible in her trip to the United States, to participate in the Oprah Show.

Therefore, we ask ourselves: for a person who practises sports with great regularity, what problems may appear when that practise suddenly stops? An obvious answer: that person will grow fatter and will present symptoms of anxiety, due to the deregulation of endorphins (hormones that our body processes, especially with frequent practise of sports, which constitute a sort of natural anti-depressive). Now, what could we observe? Apparently, something paradoxical. Kate does not grow fatter, she even grows thinner, and according to relatives, she has been obsessed about reading the process, depressed and not even the twins have cheered her up (depressive signs, we could speculate).

Let’s recall the episode of the washing of Cuddle Cat, on the 12th of June 2007, which is mentioned in her diary. What meaning does that episode have within this story? It’s very likely to be the first expression of a grieving process, which can be compared with the fact that Kate apparently didn’t recognise her daughter in the age progression images that she was shown on Oprah’s Show. Why? Because in the first situation, according to her own words, Kate practically doesn’t admit that Maddie may return (cf. post about Cuddle Cat in this blog), and in the second one, the non recognition seems to signify Kate’s incapacity to picture an older Maddie, because her last image is that of a 3-year-old girl.

Therefore, whatever happened, shows through in Kate as an IRREPARABLE LOSS.

Alas, concerning this matter, Clarence Mitchell’s lapsus linguae, in his last interview with BBC is extraordinarily clarifying: when confronted with the possibility of an opportunistic abduction, after the child left the house on her own to look for her parents (a rather unwise theory, it should be said), the Spin Doctor said – “that didn’t happen, Kate knows it”. In short, whatever happened was certainly very hard and I’m not surprised that Kate is, in fact, suffering a severe emotional disturbance. I hope that the decision concerning the maintenance of pacts take into account the cost/benefit relationship of these sufferings. I know that I had already written about this issue but I felt the duty to explain the arguments, and to appeal for borderline situations to be avoided.

Secondly, a note about the alleged age progression portraits.

Duarte Levy, who was present at Oprah’s show, didn’t leave his credits to others (thank you, Duarte) and, as usual, diligently investigated with the FBI about the origin of said so-called portraits. The information that he obtained is that the FBI had no participation whatsoever in those “artistic” productions. This information is precious to explain what I have been trying to state concerning other allegedly forensic productions, like for example the e-fits: these are always fallacies that try to confuse the argument of authority (it was an FBI artist), with the authority of argument (it’s a production of unequivocal forensic value).

Age progression portraits must be based on rigorous methodologies, from a scientific point of view, and not constitute a mere based photographic manipulation. There are previous issues that are related to anthropometric concepts, with developmental, racial, sexual norms, phenotypical probabilities from the evaluation of the genogram, among others. But apart from this, there is a methodology problem: a post hoc construction without the use of the notion of an independent variable. Meaning, Madeleine could have many faces today, keeping her general traits: blond hair and blue eyes, with the small mark on her iris.

And the rest? Well, if we were completely honest and the so-called forensic production had indeed the purpose of searching for Madeleine, then we would have to act differently. I propose the following methodology: to create four groups of independent forensic artists, and “blind” (meaning, none of the investigators in any given group knows what the others are doing). Two groups of artists are given instructions to create, at least, three progression portraits of Maddie, based on the SAME original photo (of Maddie) and according to the same methodology that should take into account the abovementioned variables. Then, two other groups of forensic artists take the three portraits, from each group that created the progression, in a random manner, and are given the following instruction: “these children are six years old. Please, according to the criteria (that we described before), produce three age regression drawings, that represent these children at the age of three”. Of course, control or placebo pictures would have to be introduced (variations in the colour and shape of hair, eyes, etc., and the introduction of a drawing of another child). Then, the chief investigator (the only one that knows the methodology) should compare the regression photographs with the original Maddie photograph that was used as a model for the progressions, according to precise anthropometric concepts. The photo that would be the best match with the original might then constitute a good hypothesis of age progression.

The way that things are now, the only thing that we’re producing is a potential error and information deviation. But could this be the purpose? Well, I don’t know. But I know that one month ago, the purpose was to carry out a local campaign (Aldeia da Luz) with Maddie’s photo at the age of 3, and now the purpose is to carry out a worldwide campaign (the programme is broadcast in 144 countries) with a photo that allegedly approaches Maddie’s present physiognomy. Which one is it, then? Who runs the campaign? Is it those retired Scotland Yard officers? Let’s wait for the next strategy. Until then, let’s watch the Oprah Show attentively so we can, as Duarte Levy said it, appreciate the McCanns’ Show. And a curiosity: do notice Kate’s clothing…

See you very soon!

Wizard said...

Good Morning all,

For those who have not seen this post by Kazlux on 3A’s a copy is below - in full. The interview answers so many questions that were not clear before. A hearty thanks to Kazlux for this transcript of the interview which although schedule for 30 minutes ran for over a 1 ½.

“The 4 of us, bloggers, were shown in a room and when the Amaral couple came in, Mrs. Amaral immediately asked who it was that set up the poll on the 3Arguidos?
When somebody in the company said not to know 3A she showed surprise and said that it was an important forum, she reads it often only has no time to post.
(Later I asked her permission to quote her on this, and also on posting her picture, and she said of course, you can quote anything you like).

The questions/answers (not verbatim but from my notes):

Q: Have you considered the possibility that Madeleine died on the previous night or even when Mrs. Fenn heard the crying?
A: Naturally - the investigation begins with establishing if the person who disappeared, does actually exist and then, who was the last person to see her - the investigation shows clearly that she was last seen around 17.30.

Q: Have you any doubt as to the validity of Madeleine attending the crèche on 3/5?
A: No doubt whatsoever.

Q. Do you think the case will definitely be opened soon?
A: We would like it to be reopened, in fact I wrote my book to prevent the shelving of the case, but it did not work out that way, the book actually came out one week after the case was shelved. The counter forces were very strong.
In the political climate of today, there is a movement leaning towards the reopening of the case.

Q: What is the most efficient way for us to help you?
A: To let it be known there is a certain pressure, from the pubic opinion.
Q: So it is useful, then, to write to the Prosecutor?
A: Yes, and also to the Justice Minister and Members of Parliament.

Q: Did the content of the 14 text messages have any relevance to the case?
A: No. But what IS relevant is that they deleted calls from their mobile phones.

So far for our questions, but there is more to come as I made notes of the other's questions and answers, too.

On the picture you see Mrs. Amaral with the 3A question list and the Rosiepops book info in her hand.
Q: If the McCanns had been honest about Madeleine having died in an accidental manner, what would have been the juridical consequences in Portugal?
A: Almost none. A mild punishment for neglect. That is provided the body did not show signs of violence. In England, as in Germany, punishment for neglect of children is more severe.

Q: Do you think the McCanns knew that?
A: They have made a decision very fast. It is well possible they did not know about the law in Portugal, but not that they did not know the law in England.

Q: Are you hoping the McCanns will sue you?
A: Yes! (Here he gave a Portuguese metaphor about a bullfight, something about having to first entice the bull into the middle of the ring before the fight can start).

Q: Is it true, as was reported in De Telegraaf, that an injection needle was found in the apartment?
A: No, that is not true. In fact we have found no medication at all. None at all. Except for 'likdoornpleisters' = litt.: corn plasters (for your feet - sorry can't find a better translation).

Q: Do you think the children were sedated?
A: There is no doubt.
(Here he told an anecdote: that Kate called in august with (a colleague of Mr. Amaral in the) PJ to ask them to check the twins for traces of sedation. Apparently Kate was alone when she called, and a bit upset. That same afternoon, Gerry called and cancelled the request.)
Q: What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?
A: Possibly from an attempt at reanimation.

Q: At what time do you think the death has occurred, given the fact that cadaver odour needs time to develop?
A: Cadaver odour begins to develop at the moment of death, due to chemical reactions in the body, it is not a matter of hours before it develops, to the nose of a dog which is very sensitive it can be detected very soon. More important is that from the inquiry we know that before the third of May nobody died in the apartment, or in the car.

Q: There was a story in a newspaper that the dogs followed a trace to the beach, is that true?
A: No. Mark Harrison had made a schedule, a plan, for the dogs, where they should search. They have searched all the apartments, the villa, the cars, the church, the sewer pipes near the church, the beach, fields, but the only traces the dogs found were in the apartments and the car of the McCanns, some clothes, and the soft toy.

Q: Do you think the body was refrigerated?
A: Yes. The bodily fluid in the car shows that. If the body had been buried there would have been mummification. The fact that there were fluids points to refrigeration.

Q: Where do you think the body was kept?
A: That is what we were trying to understand when I left the investigation. 15 alleles might not have been conclusive in the eyes of the Public Prosecutor, but for the investigation it was sufficient. The body must have been in the boot of the car. We want to know who drove the car, who was behind the wheel.
Q: What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?
A: Possibly from an attempt at reanimation.

Q: At what time do you think the death has occurred, given the fact that cadaver odour needs time to develop?
A: Cadaver odour begins to develop at the moment of death, due to chemical reactions in the body, it is not a matter of hours before it develops, to the nose of a dog which is very sensitive it can be detected very soon. More important is that from the inquiry we know that before the third of May nobody died in the apartment, or in the car.

Q: There was a story in a newspaper that the dogs followed a trace to the beach, is that true?
A: No. Mark Harrison had made a schedule, a plan, for the dogs, where they should search. They have searched all the apartments, the villa, the cars, the church, the sewer pipes near the church, the beach, fields, but the only traces the dogs found were in the apartments and the car of the McCanns, some clothes, and the soft toy.

Q: Do you think the body was refrigerated?
A: Yes. The bodily fluid in the car shows that. If the body had been buried there would have been mummification. The fact that there were fluids points to refrigeration.

Q: Where do you think the body was kept?
A: That is what we were trying to understand when I left the investigation. 15 alleles might not have been conclusive in the eyes of the Public Prosecutor, but for the investigation it was sufficient. The body must have been in the boot of the car. We want to know who drove the car, who was behind the wheel.

As the interview was closing Mrs. Amaral picked up the list and said she would like to ask this question - about Control Risk Group (sorry haven't got the exact question at hand now)

Mr. Amaral said Control Risk Group were private detectives, or should he say private soldiers, who were there almost immediately and their aim was to 'solidify' the abduction story.

I had a bit of informal conversation with Mrs. Amaral, and I asked her if she thought the body was in the sea?
She said that no, despite everything, she did not believe the McCanns 'would just throw her away' and she believes the body is either burned or buried.

Finally, she asked if I had seen the fragment of the Oprah show where Kate does the 'pfffffffffffff' thing.
She had seen it this morning, and said it was too silly, if the curtains were open how could they 'pffffffffffff'?
Also: on that night there was no wind.

As the interview was closing Mrs. Amaral picked up the list and said she would like to ask this question - about Control Risk Group (sorry haven't got the exact question at hand now)

Mr. Amaral said Control Risk Group were private detectives, or should he say private soldiers, who were there almost immediately and their aim was to 'solidify' the abduction story.

I had a bit of informal conversation with Mrs. Amaral, and I asked her if she thought the body was in the sea?
She said that no, despite everything, she did not believe the McCanns 'would just throw her away' and she believes the body is either burned or buried.

Finally, she asked if I had seen the fragment of the Oprah show where Kate does the 'pfffffffffffff' thing.
She had seen it this morning, and said it was too silly, if the curtains were open how could they 'pffffffffffff'?
Also: on that night there was no wind.”

viv said...

hiya Di

I have probably remembered incorrectly but I think it was something to do with D Levy.


-----

I have read a lot of stuff written by Levy that I find to be confusing and inaccurate. I fail to see how he could know what LP are doing in relation to the McCanns the PJ etc, much as he may wish to know. The truth is LP have never given anything away about this case, that is what keeps the public guessing about and going a bit further than that too!

viv said...

Di and All

I just picked out this bit from Sargento's piece because I think something interesting is starting to be uncovered about Kate:

As a matter of fact, this issue of Kate’s depressive health state started being spread by her relatives and friends, namely during the period that followed the archiving of the process (late July 2008). From August 2008 onwards, Kate McCann started seldom appearing in public, with an almost full absence after Christmas. Her own mother stated that she felt lonely and rejected, even by her own husband, Gerry McCann. She was never again seen jogging or walking the twins. This matter increases in pertinence if we pay attention to the fact that Kate is apparently thinner, a fact that is visible in her trip to the United States, to participate in the Oprah Show.

But what I have noted is that it is not from August 2008 that Kate starts to behave oddly it is from August 2007.

Goncalo has just revealed that she contacted the PJ distressed at that time asking for the twins to be checked for substances, but on the same day Gerry McCann rang and cancelled that. I find this one of the most interesting things of all that Goncalo has recently disclosed.,much of the rest of what he says not really being anything new.

During August 2007 Kate knew that her and Gerry were major suspects. She started to branch out on her own and do interviews with Womans Own etc, something she had never done before. She started to tell about all the problems she had with Maddie when she was a baby. I very much doubt if what she blurted out in those interviews was approved of by Gerry McCann. I feel she was starting to unburden herself and maybe just starting to seriously consider that what she found in that room that night, Madeleine missing and the window open was not the work of some stranger, but the work of her own husband and his friends. That may have been a terrible realisation to have to accept but when Gerry and Philomena started to spread rumours in September that it was actuall the PJ suspected of even killing Madeleine, the rift gradually became deeper and Kate sank into an even deeper hell.

I just wonder if she thinks as I do that Gerry and his mates did get rid of Maddie because they had been abusing her,but in fact Gerry and Payne planned to do that anyway. But, she knows that if she does not continue to support Gerry she will never see Madeleine again. I think Gerry is quite evil enough to hold this over Kate, well she may be alive but if you don't behave I will never get her back for you. So Kate clins on but is very ill by all of this. The truth is Gerry may even know that Maddie is now dead but he uses Kate's love for her and the possibility of Maddie being alive to keep Kate under control. The police also handle Gerry very carefully for pretty similar reasons. The longer they monitor him the more they find out.

I also think there is no way on earth Goncalo believes what he is currently putting out again. It is just like he can light a match and get people once again saying the most bizarre things, they stored her in a freezer etc. There were no body fluids found in the boot of that car, just a small fleck of blood (so far as I know anyway but bear in mind that apparently Stu Prior wanted certain forensics held back). I wonder if those forensics have more to do with evidence of sexual abuse and do recall that since Jan we now have the technology to isolate separate DNA profiles from a mixed sample.

I think Goncalo plays a clever game with the McCanns and uses people on the internet like puppets to repeat the most distressing and false rumours in the hope that he will finally prod the McCanns into suing him, because he wants to find out more about what really happened.

Why did he not mention David Payne in this recent interview and how exactly does Payne fit into his scheme of things?

But I am pleased that Goncalo also explodes a lot of forum myths. i.e Madeleine was not dead or missing before 5.30 on 3 May that is a matter of evidence.

As Grime explains death scent starts to develop immediately after death and can be picked up by the dogs, it is also a myth to say it takes one to two hours as we used to do but some people even having Grimes reports available now still keep on saying that!

viv said...

Look what Goncalo is saying here!:

something about having to first entice the bull into the middle of the ring before the fight can start


He will keep on making these death/freezer etc claims until the McCanns move into the ring!

Wizard said...

Morning All,

Have you seen the new picture of the possible abductor to be shown tonight on channel 4’s programme – LOL.

viv said...

I think it is hilarious, Smallpox Man is to be lined up alongside Cooperman in the McCann repertoire of creepy creatures who definitely stole Madeleine.

I think this is a position of pure desperation and feel confident British Police are seriously rattling Gerry's cage!

xx

bath theory said...

We had George Harrison then Joey Barton and now that other famous sportsman Gerry McCann.

bath theory said...

Sorry forgot to mention the invisible man and scarecrow

bath theory said...

Follow the yellow brick road to the church me thinks