17 Jul 2009

WHY I NOW THINK MADDIE DID DIE IN THE APT

Is that a rhetorical question?I have just read in the DVD file the police did not just find stains on the walls and floor but also on the back of the sofa. If it is any consolation to you that makes me feel it much more likely that Maddie did die there, where both the dogs marked, but I have tried to explain there is still not enough evidence to charge them. That does not mean we should let them off the hook. But I think it does mean it will be much more difficult for the police to obtain any better evidence and so in that respect, it is a disappointment to me!There was a post on here a few days back that I think provided the best explanation so far. Basically as the waiters were saying they were looking for Madeleine earlier in the evening, Carpenter heard someone calling Madeleine, that would have been Kate doing a check perhaps around 9.30 ish A little later perhaps when Kate let out that blood curdling scream she just found Maddie behind the sofa. In that case it would seem perhaps Gerry grabbed her, hence the bruising to try and calm her down, saying we have to get rid of the body. I would say he flung it, weighted into the sea. It also means Goncalo is completely correct and has nothing to fear I do not believe in the McCanns suing him because I think he can clearly explain to the civil burden of proof why he is convinced that is what happened.

I am getting fed up and despondent about this case, that is probably what happened and I do not see how the police can prove it.

45 comments:

Wizard said...
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Wizard said...
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RhodesRocks said...
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Soda said...
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Soda said...
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viv said...

Hiya Wiz

Thanks for your post and I am sorry about the abusive visitor who appears to think there is something appropriate and commendable in parents who claim their children just disappeared in circumstances where it is patently obvious they know exactly what happened to them and are criminally liable for that.

I note what you say about Kate and her mental health. If these people call themselves friends then they should consider what would be best for her, if they want her to have any sort of life that is. Or themselves? How can they continue to live their lives hiding such a wicked but pretty open secret?


This situation is understandably enough to make Kate seriously ill which brings us back to not just Justice for Maddie but what of their twins and their absolute right to have a happy and normal upbringing. Not faced with a mom who imposes on their artwork sessions, Madeleine is waiting to be found and will be coming home. Their lives will be for ever blighted by this unless the police, the social services or someone in authority does something positive to change that situation.

xx

Di said...

Hi Viv & Wizard

Di said...

Now that is interesting, I have been unable to sign in whilst in Wales but now home I am able to, There is something very odd going on.

Wizard I see you have also had the same problem. I wonder if someone is messing about in the hope we all give up.

Viv

I never knew about the blood on the back of the sofa, it does seem to tie in with what GA has been saying happened to Madeleine. I would imagine the only way to solve this case is to find the body, which Gerry seems pretty confident is not going to happen.

If only the PJ would re-open the case.

J J said...

Keep the faith!

Justice for Madeleine and to hell with everyone else!

Poor little soul, she is the only one that counts.

Di said...

JJ

Well said

Di said...

This is an interesting post from HawkEyes1 3As

Title just how depressed are the McCanns?


I truly believe the McCanns are going to be VERY DEPRESSED, when they eventually read an English translation of a chapter of Dr. Goncalo Amaral's book, The Truth of the Lie, in light of their lawsuit against the detective. Primavera on another thread, WHY BOTHER TO SUE AMARAL, says that the McCanns "...should be suing Mark Harrison. I am reading chapter 16 of Amaral's book at the moment and this is the section about the results of Mark Harrison's work on the case:

"After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area."

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=35334&start=45

Mark Harrison is a detective inspector from the Leicestershire Police. Paulo Reis provides more information on this man's distinguished background in a footnote on his article, entitled Mark Harrison Report: The Turning Point at Praia da Luz, on his blog THE MADELEINE MCCANN DISAPPEARANCE at:

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogs ... nt-at.html

and I quote: Mark Harrison, National Search Adviser, NPIA, and National Crime & Operations Faculty (NCOF) Special Adviser is also the National Search Adviser in relation to Homicide, missing persons and mass fatality disasters for the Police service within the United Kingdom. Working for the National Centre of Policing Excellence he has 20 years Police service. He provides case consultancy services to all UK Police Agencies and in addition where requested overseas consultancy for example USA FBI, US Army, Australia, Middle East and South America.

His particular focus is on complex serial or multiple cases where human remains are being sought within a large geographic area. He specialises in harnessing a multi discipline approach of police, military, academic and commercial experts to enable conjunctive reconnaissance to determine a specific area to search. He has authored best practice guidance for the British Police service on searching for missing persons and victims. He has developed scenario based search models and the use of behavioural profiling to assist in successful search strategies.

No wonder, the McCanns are doing everything they can to stop the book being published in the UK!
................................

Well finally we can now see that LP did take things seriously.

Viv

I do hope you are right that LP are still investigating.

viv said...

Hiya Di and JJ

How weird you cannot sign on in Wales, Di. I would not be surprised to know there are attempts to stop this blog.

I agree finding the body would be the ideal way to actually charge these two, but believe it probably got thrown into the Atlantic that same night. However my son Luke points out that killers do sometimes keep moving the body to make sure it is not detected. He feels that at first the body was hidden in the Church. He reasons, who would think to look there. But later when there was talk of that as a possibility given kate and Gerry immediately wanted the keys etc. they moved it with the hire card to its final resting place. If Luke is right there is just some hope of finding it. But what of the Smith sighting? Is this just another "sighting" that Gerry arranged? That would be odd given Mr Smith indicated he was 70 per cent sure it was Gerry, but of course that is not good enough, particularly given he did not say that until several months later, in September 2007.

Just going to have a look at your lengthy post now Di, and good to have you back!

Wiz it was nice to see you posting again also, I know it is difficult these days without much positive news!

xx

viv said...

My first thought in relation to Goncalo's comments in Chapter 16 is that he demonstrates the ambiguity in trying to be sure of what Kate and Gerry did on the basis of the evidence that we have. He first says the most plausible, which admits the ambiguity when referring to Harrison's report but then says there is no doubt. I think his first choice was the best. Having looked at this case from absolutely every angle I think a death earlier in the evening is the most plausible and Gerry disposing of the body. I do now believe that Kate found it and Gerry being the emotionless and plotting person that he is just immediately decided right, the body had to go. It was a case of do we all go down for this, or do we not. No contest, so far as Gerry was concerned. I really do think Gerry of all people should get a lengthy spell in custody, not just for his behaviour at the time, but for what he has been doing ever since.

I think also it is important to remember when considering the beliefs of Goncalo Amaral, they emanated from English Police Officers and search dogs. The McCanns, if they have sued him, are in for mighty trouble I believe. But I suppose Gerry just thought there was no alternative, somehow he had to try and shut him up.

I just know that Goncalo has no plans to do that!

I wish Goncalo would take his book to the States, as I feel that is what was seriously concerning Gerry , but do not think Goncalo would now take the risk.

viv said...

Given that Goncalo has only published his book in foreign languages and given that it took Kate and Gerry almost a year to complain, I do not think they have much chance at all. Particularly thinking of the lower burden of proof in a civil court. I think Goncalo has enough!

I do wonder though how a Pt court would view such conduct from an ex police officer. I suppose I am only considering that, knowing that in UK he would be held to have breached the Official Secrets Act. He obviously has not done anything like that so far as Pt law is concerned because he is only commenting on information alredy in the public domain. It is noticeable that Goncalo specifically waited until release of the files prior to publishing his book. He is clearly no fool!

If the McCanns want to pursue this case, they will have to keep on paying a huge amount in costs to fund the preparation of the case for trial. I am sure they are now concerned that neither their American paypal button or British Pounds are providing them with the sort of hard cash they know they need on top of having to pay their employees salaries!

Wizard said...

Good Morning All,

I was just reflecting on my post yesterday re: the weakest links.

It suggests a number of other members of the T9 are lying. The question is why?

The crime that leads them to lie is very serious one and it’s unlikely they would lie just to help the McCanns out because they were friends or a solidarity bond between doctors. Something people might do if it was a minor misdemeanour.

This suggests to me that Madeleine’s death would impact on them in someway and they are lying to cover their own backs – not just the Mcs.

I think this would mean a sudden loss of temper and someone lashing out can be discounted. This would not impact on the others.

So what have we left?

1. All T9 children were sedated and M’s death was caused in someway by a drug they were all using (on their children or recreational drugs they used themselves) and perhaps another member of T9 supplied.

2. The T9 were on a swingers’ holiday – if the facts of M’s death came out they would be exposed and their professional reputation could be affected.

3. An accident occurred but the cover up was necessary because an autopsy would show sexual abuse of Madeleine which some members of T9 were involved in or knew about.

Any thoughts on the above speculation?

Wizard said...

Things are very quiet at the moment with good reason.

The McCanns are firing shots over Amaral’s bows to shut him up and this is keeping them busy.

The pretendy cops instructed by the Mcs will not be steered in the right direction for any true break through to be made. Time consuming for K & G as they wouldn’t want them looking where they shouldn’t.

On the other hand it is the holiday season – sparks may fly again when August is over.

There is a strong possibility that the Portuguese may reopen this case before the year is out imo. Lets hope so.

Wizard said...

You must have heard the argument from people who say: “Would the McCanns' continue searching and publicising their daughter’s disappearance if they had a part in it and knew she was dead.”

These people are usually Mail readers but you can’t hold this against them.

They only look at the surface covering for this case and do remove the top layer to see what lies beneath.

In reality the Mc’s would keep up this pretence as it is good way to detract from the truth and from there point of view a good tactic imo.

K&G are not paying themselves, cash wise, for any pretendy investigation or even the words they spout. The Fund is paying to continually reinforcing their innocence – something they need to do because people do not believe them.

Soda said...

Hello

Intresting post I am getting somewhere with my PC problems now (you just cant get the staff) but got a bit carried away yesterday when posting and kept hitting post then when I deleted it deleted one to many!!!!!

Will see you all later I think I am nearly normal (well I am not normal but the PC is),,,

Have a nice Sunday xxx

mandarinn said...

Hi VIV and all
Nice to see you all again.
Wizard
You did a great analysis from this case.Congratulations.
I see many people got pc problems, me too... but I think it is because I use internetexplorer, Ithink firefox is easear but i'm not use to it.
Have a nice sunday all

xxxxx

Angel...

viv said...

Hiya all,

just did a lengthy post and lost it so this one will be shorter.


I was looking at the really good analysis by Wiz and basically yes, I think there is something far more sinister involved in this case than a simple accident caused through neglect.

I am pretty certain those children were drugged, given Gerry's reactions, including confirming it by suggesting some predator drugged the children. We know there was no predator so that just leaves Kate and GErry.

As you know I do think they probably used cocaine. I also think sexual abuse of Madeleine by Gerry, Payne and OB is a very real possibility.

So could they admit what happened and allow a post mortem on Madeleine, no way, that is why they hid the body.

If they had just let her die through neglect and a fall they would only have been looking at a few years custody and I see no reason for the others to risk custody themselves to cover this. It just has to be much worse than that.

viv said...

Hope and Mandarrin

Great to see you back too and hope you are both OK.. I use firefox and internet explorer, the latter to get onto this site. I think you need to make sure you keep doing the updates from microsoft or better still set your computer to do them automatically.

wiz

I think you are right in saying they just cannot stop trying to defend themselves, because people just do not believe them and they need to try and they need to try and move on from this.

I read a very sarcastic comment from Stu Prior last night, I think it was to Ricardo Paiva who seems to have been one of the most central figures investigating this. He was talking about the quite obviously entirely phony sighting by Gail Cooper and saying he was keeping Gerry updated only to the extent Rebelo was ordering. But in relation to the Gail Cooper sighting he said Gerry is most excited by this latest development. When you see it in context that the police realised Brian Kennedy had been in touch with her and that she had said to the police she thought the man she saw was just a conman, but she said to The Daily Mirror she was sure he had something to do with Madeleine and how the police warned her about speaking to the press, that just says how utterly tongue in cheek Stu Prior's remark was about Gerry's "excitement".

I am sure Gerry is always excited about any development that is taking the story away from them and onto some phony sighting. But deep down he knows the police are just looking for a way to get him. It was also interesting to note that UK POlice were very deferential to the PJ, carrying out their instructions etc. So could it be re-opened again in Portugal, well maybe yes, but I still have a feeling the shelving in Pt was down to a frank admittance there could be no quick and simple prosecution. It was going to be along haul job where UK Police would just have to work hard for a breakthrough as they often do in serious murder cases etc.

I also noted the one thing that UK authorities refused the PJ was a full 6 months statements for Gerry's mastercard accounts. The PJ wanted them because they were looking for a reason why Gerry may be involved in the disappearance of Madeleine. Clearly nothing can be ruled out!!

Wizard said...

Good Morning Viv and all,

Yesterday I went to see the film ‘Public Enemies’ with Johnny Depp. A Hollywood style biography of the bank robber John Dillinger.

Afterwards I commented what a terrible way Dillinger lived due to his career choice - never knowing if the knock on the door was the police or FBI coming to arrest or kill him. Not being able to make long term plans and living in constant fear with death stalking at every turn.

But he still continued his life style because he couldn’t or wouldn’t change - this route had become part of his life and inevitable death.

This got me thinking of Kate’s health problems – a long stretch of the imagination from 30’s American gangsters to a part-time English GP - but is it.

It would be easy to say her alleged health problems are caused by her daughter’s abduction by stranger. A normal reaction to what had happened.

But……waiting for the inevitable knock on the door, being outed as a liar and worse and life as they know it never being the same again would make most people ill.

The stress must be unbearable and it would be quite believable someone might come clean to remove the strain. But like Dillinger this is their chosen course. His way of life was funded by bank robbery, theirs by the Madeleine fund.

The fund is a lifeline which perpetuates their actions without this and the bevy of helpers it buys they would be in deep trouble. It is little wonder they continually strive to raise funds.

A speculative look at things but if true - what a life to have to live!

Wizard said...

A little further speculation on my previous post.

If only one person was involved that person might consider the best course of action was to finally come clean about what happened and relieve the stress.

But if there is more than one person involved (which is likely) and telling the truth would impact on others – it would imo be difficult or impossible to do.

Di said...

Hi Viv, Wizard, Hope & Mandarinn

Wizard

Your Sunday 9.41 post, well said.

Viv

Stuart Prior's sarcastic remark about Gerry's excitement, would not surprise me one bit.

Gerry has shown extremely odd behaviour from day one. Reading statements as if he was giving a lecture, without any emotion whatsoever, with Kate shrinking by his side.

I have always felt there is so much more to this than the T9 at stake, but what?

viv said...

Wiz I thought that analogy was really good. Having to constantly live with the fear of not knowing and trying to act normally is just impossible. This sort of constant stress does make people ill and we know that it would be a far greater strain on Kate than Gerry. Even so, you can just sense their joing desperation in all of their madcap schemes, one ill fated strategic decision just tumbling into the next, quite out of control. I have always felt that application to Mrs Justice Hogg in April 2008 was the epitome of Kate and Gerry really feeling the strain

As you say Di and Wiz, there is more to this than meets the eye, something very sinister and very serious. The fear of that knock on the door just builds in them both. Kate's desperate letter to Rebelo also, understandable how she must have felt being hunted and not told, but still a very bad move. Trying to suggest that as parents they have the right to know exactly what the police are doing. Not as criminals which they are, they do not! They long since abandoned the prospect of being any sort of parent to poor little Madeleine and I still believe it is a travesty and a grave injustice they are allowed to keep custody of the twins. Even if she does have to have someone in to help her, which I think is very likely.

But what, Di? Sooner or later I just feel we will find out.

xx

Wizard said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wizard said...

Hi All,

Di – you give a good description of Gerry when you say:-

“Reading statements as if he was giving a lecture, without any emotion whatsoever, with Kate shrinking by his side.”

As we know Gerry is able to compartmentalise. When he reads statements etc the truth and emotions related to his daughter are safely locked away.

He’s not a complete idiot he knows a large percentage of people he talks to think him guilty. His delivery is like someone trying desperately to hold onto emotional control and it comes over as arrogance.

Anger is probably the emotion bubbling under the surface caused by the position he finds himself in.

Reading statements that are in the main scripted fiction needs an actor to pull if off and that he isn’t.

Knowing GM as we do I wonder if he would go through all this if Kate was the one solely to blame for what happened to their daughter?

At first I though he was covering for his wife but now I think this is wrong. Whatever happened, if the truth be known, impacts on him and not only his wife.

Amaral’s belief that GM just helped to cover up a crime is questionable – more likely he is culpable in someway and is not just helping to cover up a crime committed by his wife.

viv said...

Wiz,

thanks for some fascinating insights again there from a psychological perspective.

The other example I thought of, of Gerry's cold and emotionless performance where he desperately tries to appear credible and normal is the flip chart. Coming from a probation background these were frequently used in meetings to clinically assess and analyse issues. They were also used in one to one and group work with offenders. The businesslike use of the and the sort of cold and clinical language used, arrows and wider issues was just so utterly inappropriate for a father in his position. This linked to his far too early announcements of a vist to the States to "look at the wider political issues" in July or late June going on memory. It really shocked me at the time and it still does. One can see from the picture outside the Whitehouse that back in those early days he was happy and feeling his plans were going well.

I entirely agreed there is anger bubbling under the surface and deep routed anger from some past injustice is often at the route of people who offend in the sort of way that we believe he has. Clearly that offending has over the years now, appeared to be more and more serious as he has persisted with his elaborate attempts to extricate himself from blame.

I have to agree with you the focus on Kate's depression as perhaps providing an explanation is unrealistic. It has always been Gerry who is the driving force, who handed those old pictures to the police, who fell down on his knees at their appearance, who sat desperately writing timelines with is fellow conspirators. Earlier this year, prior to Oprah there were several initiatives, solely taken by him, starting in January.

I entirely agree with you Gerry would not have done all of this to save his wife. Gerry has been intent on subtly passing responsibility towards his wife, particularly when he had to face the horror in September of clear police suspicion and evidence against him. That was not anger bubbling when he exited the police station, it was pure mental exhaustion, sick realisation, a sense of defeat which he has had to struggle very hard to rise against, but he does! He has personally described "a high risk and dangerous strategy" in another of his classic Freudian slips, that is precisely what he continues to employ.

I note in his second interview on 10 May 2007 where he had a profound change in his memory on which doors were used to re-enter the apartment, now claiming it was the rear to coincide what the somewhat smarter Kate had already said, he also gives a little nudge at David Payne. To my amazement when I read it again recently I noticed he states that Payne did a check on his children!!

To me Gerry McCann is highly manipulative and scheming and will never give up, even when he is arrested, even when he is charged, he will still protest his innocence, but I think we can expect some venom to be directed at the Lady Kate, David Payne, Russell O'Brien. They may be wise to think on this and admit matters before he gets the chance!


Having said that, what it is I think they need to admit, is so terrible they just never will!

The ball is firmly in the court of Leicester Police and they have plenty of fraudulent activity to be getting along with. Eventually, this will be the basis of his arrest I believe and the rest will flow from there.

viv said...

Have put up a new OP on 3As because I think this is important.

There is no evidence of Maddie having died in the apt, but there is evidence of Gerry leaving the table for about 30 mins and blond rasta man in green combats, dare I say I am back where I started from! If the police could find this man who does appear to exist judging by the number of witnesses who say they saw him, maybe they would have the answer as to what Gerry arranged for little Maddie?

Here the PJ raise some very pertinent and interesting questions about the markings of the dogs, also hypothesising whether Eddie marked putrefying blood.

After making these remarks they also point out that their own CSI team did not detect any human blood at all in the apt when they did a thorough analysis the following day.

In those circumstances and given the negative report from the FSS I can clearly see why it was the McCanns just could not be arrested at that stage. This is not to say that I feel they are innocent in the disappearance of Madeleine, far from it. But I do think people underestimate the difficult of the task the police face, and use a simplistic explanation, that LP and the government are protecting them, which is frankly absurd!

I was interested to read, when they are looking at the kidnapping scenario that they received an anonymous report about Murat apparently being fascinated with viewing sex etc. I seem to remember Rosiepops used to keep on making such allegations going back to about Oct/Nov 2007 on the Daily Express, not that I would be pointing the finger of course 8-}

This is taken from an initial report on Pamalam's site and I do recommend a read of all of it, which is very interesting.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/A ... OLUMES.htm

viv said...

cont'd//

If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'


2.1. The hypothesis of death is based on the following:

a) The witness Silvia Batista, page 1977, refers that at 3:00 h, May 4th, the couple asked for a priest, which she found strange since there was at that time any indication that the child was dead, and it is 'under those circumstances that usually the presence of a priest is demanded' (sic).

b) The search dog 'Eddie' (dog that signals the presence of cadaver odor) 'marked' (gave a signal) in the couples bedroom, at the apartment 5A, on an area close to the wardrobe (page 2054, and/or annex 88)

c) That same dog 'marked', in the same apartment, an area close to the window of the living room, which has a direct access to the street, behind the sofa (page. 2054 and/or annex 88)

d) Still in the apartment, the dog 'marked' an area in the garden, at the corner, down the vertical from the veranda (page 2054 and/or annex 88).

e) At the villa 'Vista do Mar', the house rented by the McCann after leaving the Ocean Club, the dog 'marked' the area of the closet that contained in its interior the soft toy belonging to Madeleine (cf. page. 2099 and/or annex 88)

f) From the exam to the clothing performed in a pavilion in Lagos, this same dog 'marked' some pieces of clothes that belonged to Kate Healy (page 2101 and /or annex 88)

g) This dog signalled the exterior and interior parts, of the driver's door, of the Renault 59-DA-27 ' rented by the McCann (page. 2187 and /or annex 88)

h) Finally he 'marked' the key/card of this vehicle when hidden in a sand box (page 2187 and/or annex 88)

i) The search dog, named 'Keela' (a she dog that detects the presence of human blood) 'marked' an area in the living room, in the apartment 5A, that had been 'marked' by the dog 'Eddy' (page. 2054 and/or annex 88)

j) After the mosaics that this dog signalled had been retired, on a first inspection, and mentioned previously, she marked that same area once more (page 2190 and/or annex 88)

k) She 'marked' also the inferior side of the left side curtains, of the window referred above (page 2190 and/or annex 88)

l) She 'marked' the inferior lateral right side, in the inside of the booth of the car 59-DA-27 (page 2187 and/or anex 88)

m) In what concerns the vehicle, 'Keela' 'marked' the little compartment of the driver's door, that contained the key/card of the vehicle (page 2187 and/or annex 88)

n) This dog also 'marked' the key/card when the same was hidden into a sand box.

viv said...

cont'd//

It should be noted the report made by the trainer /owner of these dogs. On this report it's mentioned the methodology of training:

'Eddie, the dog with an advanced training to detect mortal victims (E.V.R.D.), searches and locates human remains and body fluids, including blood, in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the dog was done with human blood and decaying piglets that were born dead. The importance of this training is that the dog learnt to identify the odour of a decaying body that is not food. This guaranties that the dog ignores the 'bacon sandwich' and the 'kebab', etc. that are always present in the environment. Besides that the dog will not alert to a meal prepared at home or on any other place. For instance, the dog will be efficient on searching a cadaver in café where the clients can be sitted eating a bacon sandwich. As a complement of this training, the dog receives an additional training in the USA, in association with the FBI, in which will be used exclusively human remains' (sic) (page 2493 and 2494).

This summarized description raises a question that we would like to see answered: could the dog be 'marking' not the odours emanated from a cadaver, directly or indirectly (by contagious), but from blood in putrefaction'

These dogs are means for obtaining proof but they cannot be used as proof. They must be taken as instruments. Any vestige, even invisible to the eye, recovered with the use of these dogs, has to be subjected to forensic exam on a credited laboratory.

It is the same Martin Grime that, at pages 2271, refers on his report: 'Although it cannot constitute proof admissible to court, it can help on the recovery of intelligence for the investigation of serious crimes'.

In this case the dogs signalled several places. The technicians of the Scientific Police Laboratory recovered those vestiges ' vestiges that that on it's majority were not visible to the eye ' and sent them to the laboratories for the necessary forensic exams, in order to recover and identify the DNA profiles, that might be extracted from them.

From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'

Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.

viv said...

This witness statement from one of the lead investigators Ricardo Paiva about his meeting with the FSS at LP, where he was told that sometimes and this had happened since the Maddie case, the dogs will mark but no forensic proof is obtained. Unfortunately this is what happened.

I think if people really want to seek the truth and try to understand what happened, it is necessary to accept that evidence was very thin on the ground and all of the police officers involved (both Pt and UK) really did do their best. In spite the marking of the dogs nothing transpired from that.

Looking at a situation from a false viewpoint is never really going to take you any further forward.

Processos Vol XV Pages 3898 – 3900
15_VOLUME-XVa_Page_3898

15_VOLUME-XVa_Page_3899

15_VOLUME-XVa_Page_3900


Witness Statement

Ricardo Manuel Gonçalves de Paiva

Date : 2007-12-14

The witness exercises the function of PJ Inspector since 1999 and currently works in the Portimao Criminal Investigation Department, since 2004.

Since 4th May 2007 the witness was deployed to become part of the investigative team in the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

During the course of the investigation, within the sphere of police collaboration, different resources normally used in the investigation of similar cases in the UK were made available by the British authorities.

Within this context various inspections of different sites related to the case were made, with recourse to the specialised forensic methods used by the British police, which resulted in the collection of samples, some of which were being analysed by laboratories in the UK, namely the FSS in Birmingham.


On 29th November 2007 at the Leicestershire Police HQ there was a working meeting attended by the witness, several British officers investigating the case as well as scientists from the FSS.

viv said...

cont'd//

During this meeting, the witness asked a question about the use of cadaver odour and human blood detection sniffer dogs in situations of criminal investigations, namely as auxiliary means, used a complement to the technical and scientific means of collecting biological samples from crime scenes, as Dr Lowe had said that the FSS have no scientific support about the use of the dogs as a tool in the collection of biological samples and that they normally take as certification the words of the handler who assures that the dogs are more sensitive than any chemical technique or other normally used by local crime scene technicians and that effectively in the past, where dogs recuperated biological samples from the crime scene, which the technicians had not been able to detect and that there had been confirmation from the FSS laboratory by DNA analyses by means of the Low Copy technique, that DNA belonging to the victims existed.

However, the witness was told that there are cases, even a recent case since the disappearance of Madeleine, in which, despite the positive indications of the dogs, in the laboratory it was not possible to identify any DNA profile from the samples collected.

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viv
Post subject: Re: THE PJ'S CONCERNS ABOUT THE MARKING OF THE DOGS
New postPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:59 am
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Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:58 pm
Posts: 3017
So, what we seem to have is no real evidence of Maddie having died in the apartment, no evidence of any mystery predator, evidence that the crime scene was trashed by the group prior to the police even arriving and evidence that Gerry McCann left the table for about 30 minutes and then Maddie had disappeared.

But a lot of people here are saying they saw blond rasta man in green combats. So who is he and what was he doing, does Gerry know? I wonder!!

Oh and NONE of these witnesses recall any woman leaving the table. Sorry Harmony but on balance, I have to agree with most people on here, she is just a liar and one who has repeatedly changed her evidence, hardly the conduct of one who wants to tell the truth and help the police to recover little Maddie!

viv said...

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
GOOGLE TRANSLATION
REPORT OF AN EXTERNAL APPROACH; Date: 2007/05/04 Location: Praia da Luz, which determined the appropriate entity: superiorly determined
Funcionario that ran: Miguel Duarte *****, **** and Inspector

Description and outcome of the investigation:
-------- To date, we have moved back to the Tapas restaurant, owned by the Ocean Club, located in Praia da Luz (Lagos), where we got to talking with various officials of the restaurant, which last night there were in service . ----------
-------- The topic of conversation is the disappearance of little Madeline MCCAN, especially the behavior of the elements of the group who dined at that restaurant yesterday, which was part of the country disappeared, and were a individual suspect, with "raster" blonde in camouflage pants. ----------(reported by Jeremy Wilkins and I am sure I am not the only person who has some concerns about his evidence)

-------- JERÓNIMO TOMÁS RODRIGUES SALCEDA (Phone No "91 768 ####) - bartender:
- See the missing Madelaine, last, yesterday by 16.45h with one restaurant;
- I noticed is the group of British citizens (in number of 8 or 9) that yesterday dined in restaurants (which are part of the parents of missing), if someone left it during dinner;
- See a walkie talkie on the table in the group, those who are used to monitor noise of children, distance;
- I saw a person of "raster" blondes, while working last night. ----------
(Does this raster blond man really exist? Could he be an accomplice of Gerry McCann)

------- STARIKOVA VITORINO SVETLANA (Russian citizen, with the telephone No "96635 ####) - dishwasher:
- Said yesterday that one individual, presumably the father of the missing, left the dinner table where a group of friends (m number of 8 or 9), for about 30 minutes. After having returned, a woman who believes that being wife, also left the table, which passed a few moments, all the guests left the table in question, except one elderly lady, who told his colleagues that the child had disappeared .
- During the time that yesterday was the work (between 14:30 and 23:00) did not see any individual of "raster" laurel.

-------- MIGUEL COELHO SALCEDA (BI No "in 1426 in ####, telephone 91920 ####) - cook
- Do not know the missing or their parents, known only as part of a group of British citizens who usually dinner;
- How it works in the kitchen, rarely will the tables, so he saw nothing;
- I saw a person with "raster" bay, while at work (14.30 and 23.00) ----------

viv said...

cont'd//

--------- JOAQUIM MOREIRA JOSE BATISTA (residing at Rua Ilha Terceira, n. "15, Lagos, Telephone No" 91 277 ####) - employee table.
- The group of 819 British citizens who dine at the restaurant last night, like usual, which were part of the parents of missing (they know) noticed that two individuals leave the table, the male gender.
- The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large hair color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, which had to heat it the food, which cooled;
- The second to leave (it has about 40-45 years of age, has the physical characteristics of the first, but is less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after returned, all left the table, except for an elderly, he said a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, which thought that the second person to leave could be the father of the child;
- Of the times in which this group has dinner in a bar is often the group go to check the state apartments of the children (their offspring) who are to sleep.
- I saw a person with "raster" bay, while he was working (1h6h00 and 00.00. ----------

-------- Joelson FABIO SANTOS SOARES LÚCIO (telephone No '96948 # # # # - was approached in another restaurant group, located in the same locality) - mess boy
- What works in the crown, never goes to the area where are the tables, so he saw nothing;
- Missing and unknown to their parents;
- Not seen in any individual with the "Rastas" bay, in the period in which there remained in service (15:30 and 23:30. ----------

--------- RICARDO OLIVEIRA ALEXANDRE DA LUZ (as it was off, was contacted for the telephone No "91 397 ####) - employee table.
- The group of 8 / 9 British citizens who dine at that restaurant yesterday, like usual, which were part of the parents of missing (they know) noticed that away from the table, for about 15 minutes, a man (high with little more than thirty years of age, normal physical stature, hair color light brown and white);
- It was usually someone of that group, leave the apartment to go check the kids (children of group members) who slept;
- At the table, always found the existence of an intercom;
- I saw a person with "raster" bay, while he was working (16h000 and 00h30 ).----------

------- As for the kitchen staff, MARIA JOSE Manuel Antonio, since it was not in service yesterday as the last dinner and was the disappearance of the child, the conversation does not come with it .-- -------

------ In the main reception (open 24h) of the Ocean Club, the 82 signatory could see a person with long hair, curly, blonde in color, with camouflage shorts and sweat-shirt in green, which fits in description of the suspect of the "Rastas", which urged the receptionist about it, once said that this individual and his wife are guests in this hotel and has been tireless, since yesterday, in search of the missing. Is attached photocopies of their passports and the recording unit in the hotel. ----------

Signature of official (in capital letters legibly and showing the respective category)

viv said...

The above posts from OP on 3As

http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=35483&p=1081916#p1081916

Wizard said...

Good Morning Viv,

I was just reading your post re the dog findings – it made interesting reading.

Although one of the dogs detected blood it is not this that convinces me Madeleine died in the apartment. The blood may well be significant but even if it could be proved to be M’s there was not enough of it to suspect foul play as its primary source.

What I mean by that is it could reasonably be explained away. Something the Mc’s are very good at.

The scent of a cadaver is not so easily explained away. The apartment appeared to have been thoroughly cleaned; no doubt with some bleach based product. If a corpse rested in the places indicate by the dog it did so briefly and may well have been in a container i.e. bag etc.

What this suggests to me is that the scent was weak. Eddie does investigate methodically under his handler's watchful eye.

His handler says both dogs were excited when they entered the apartment. Indicating to him that the scent they had been trained to find was present.

When I look for something quickly sometimes I can’t always see it and I need to go back over the area I previously looked at to find a small lost item. It's not that the missing item is not there but it is not easy to detect.

I think this is what Eddie was doing before he was able to pick up conclusively and mark a weak scent of a cadaver’s presence at some point. I’m in no doubt this is what he did detect.

Kate’s explanation for the cadaver scent is certainly stretching the imagination to the limit and I suspect this is just a ruse to dilute the very incriminating finding by Eddie.

But as the dog evidence cannot be used in a Portuguese court it’s all academic but I think Eddie’s findings still stand and are the single most incriminating piece of evidence against them.

If Eddie’s findings are correct they prove everything the McCanns have said since the evening of 3rd May 2007 is a lie.

Rosiepops of course, comes out fighting her corner, disputing the dogs’ findings to the hilt because she knows if true her whole argument of the McCanns innocence would crumble into dust.

Wizard said...

Kate’s explanation for the cadaver scent ie visiting 6 dead patients in the course of her work in the week prior to her holiday.

This must have been checked out - probably by the Leicestershire police. I have seen no evidence of this in the files released though.

I wonder if this was some of the information retained by them.

I’ve always assumed Kate’s extraordinary explanation was true, purely because it was so easy to check, but is that right?

This is a very sensitive piece of information and if untrue perhaps not information deemed appropriate for public discussion prior to a trial.

Soda said...

Hello ALL

I have been reading back for ages and cant remeber now who said they thought Gerry was covering for Kate but he cant be as he may not have gone along with the charade to save her (my words not yours)...

If Madeline is not alive and well somewhere having a ball then I hope it was an accident and she was not scared or frightend before she died...

My thoughts on this case dont change much I dont know how Madeline died but I am sure she did it is the easiest solution as I dont belive there was an abduction and other theories are so far fetched I suppose I dismiss them (not to say I am right)...

If it was an accident maybe they panicked and looked at all they had to loose? But to be honest they have friends in high places and although leaving the children home alone was very very wrong it would obvioulsy not be something they would ever do again and the death of a child would be more than any court could dish out as a sentence...

So why cover it up??? Maybe it was just that scared about loosing the twins their jobs house and everything else in life? Or maybe no one would be allowed to see the body as it would reveal deep dark secrets of abuse?

I dont know but they make themselves look more and more guilty every time they spin of give an interview...

The only thing that convinces me 150% that Madeleine was not abducted is the actions of Kate and Gerry McCann if their daughter was really missing I dont think they could play games with her life by not cooperating with the police and using diversion tactics very early on by insisting she was in Morroco...

There is no way they know anymore than anyone else as they were not there when she was taken and by being vocal about where she was and how she was taken through shutters that were never smashed it makes them look very guilty indeed...

I feel sorry for the Tapas Children what kind of life will they have if one day that knock on the door comes and Mummy and Daddy are led away and charged with perverting the course of justice... If I had been there as a Mother even if I had helped move the body I would have to go to the police and tell the exactly what happend and how I was invoved. We are over 2 years past 3rd May 2007 if they had all admitted what had happend a few months after if there was a custodial sentence they would be out now free to rebuild their lives instead of waking up every day in fear of arrest.

My Children are my world having to leave them for any time would break my heart but the fear it could happen any day now would push me forward to get it out the way to come back to them a free person.

Soda said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Di said...

Hi all

Did anyone see Send in the dogs last night, if not it was worth watching and is on for a few weeks.

Wizard

I agree, the McCanns reaction to the dogs was totally odd. Kates 6 deaths at work and not forgetting taking cuddlecat to work with her,very odd. GA also said, they were very agitated when the dogs were brought in. Not imo the reaction of parents who think their child has been abducted and with paedophiles.

Remember also, going against PJ advice mentioning her colomboma, as Gerry said, a good marketing ploy. Clarrys comment "If she's dead she's dead, but not by their hand" well whose hand was it then Clarry?

I was interested to see Tony B's thread about TM's headquarters being in Knutsford, which is where I live. It is a known fact that Brian Kennedy moved to Swettenham a few years ago. Swettenham is not Knutsford it is nr Congleton, Cheshire. Perhaps he has kept his other house in Knutsford, rather than selling, and turned it into TM's headquarters. If this is so why? It would mean he is more involved than any of us know. Or, perhaps the fund is paying rent and accounting for it under office expenditure. Something is very odd here, why would BK be sooooo involved? Apart from the suggestion of money laundering that is.

Di said...

Let's hope we are nearer the truth.

Posted by Tony B on 3A's



I really cannot say any more than I have done here, I am really sorry about that, I hope a time will come, sooner rather than later, when I can, but I am in possession of some good quality information about the McCann so-called 'investigation' which basically confirms the majority view on 3As that Madeleine died in Apartment 5A and that there is a huge, costly and very well-organised cover-up operation in progress, largely under the control of Brian Kennedy with of course the public relations help of Clarence Mitchell and the televisual appeal (cough) of the McCanns

viv said...

HIYA Di

I am afraid I would still like to know how Tony Bennett of all people has any "good quality information" at all about the McCann's "investigation".

I am sorry but to me this absolutely beggars belief!

viv said...

Is it not more likely the case that for the sake of his non stop publicity seeking, books etc. he needs to spice up the "evidence" against the McCanns and give it a bit more credence than it actually has?

I find the conduct of some people almost the mirror image of Kate and Gerry!

Harry said...

What's happened?Rosie is talking to herself on the purple blog and you have posters. How the worm has turned.