3-Cartas Rogatorias File 3 Pages 31 - 56
RESTRICTED
Statement number S87B
Printed version of recorded document
Surname: CARPENTER
First name. STEPHEN
Profession: Maintenance Technician
Date of Statement: 21/04/2008- Number of pages : 1
I am the person referred to above and I live at the address provided to the police.
I confirm that I was questioned by DC 4078 Ferguson from Leicestershire police on 21st April 2008.
The questioning began at 10.30 and finished at 11.10 on the same day. The questioning was filmed on DVD and on cassette. This statement was made by me and is truthful according to my understanding.
The questioning took place at the police station in Stevenage, Hertfordshire on the 21st April 2008.
I would be more than satisfied if the evidence presented by me was used and if required to appear at court in Portugal I would need to be notified in advance. .
Statement
Date 21st April 2008
Pages: 1
Statement of Stephen Carpenter
Leicestershire Police Force
Form MG15 (T)
Officer who conducted the questioning: DC 4078 Ferguson
Pages: 26
_____________________________
__
Duration of Interview: 39 minutes
DCF: Do you agree with me reading out your statement'
SC: Yes, I agree, yes.
DCF: Or would you prefer to read out the statement yourself'
SC: No, thats fine, you can read it.
DCF: I thought it would make more sense that way:
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: So when we get to the moment that refers to Portugal, it will refresh your memory.
SC: Please can I take some notes'
DCF: Yes of course. I’ll get you a sheet of paper.
SC: Yes, OK.
DCF: I will have to go and get one because I haven’t got my bag with me.
.
DC FERGUSON leaves the interrogation room..
DC FERGUSON returns to the interrogation room.
DCF: This was the best I could find.
SC: Yes, that’s fine, its just for small details like people’s names.
DCF: Yes.
SC: That would be, humm the babysitters and the people I played tennis with. I’ve got, hummm I almost remember all of their names. .
DCF: I would just like to introduce myself, I am DC Sophie Ferguson. I work for the Main Criminal Unit of the Leicestershire police and we have obviously been working on the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, to provide assistance to the Portuguese and the reason for which we are here today is because the Portuguese have asked us to carry out some questioning of some of the witnesses.
SC: Agreed.
DCF: And also, Gerry and Kate have the right to ask the witnesses some questions and for that reason some of the questionings carried out incorporate questions suggested by them.
SC. OK.
DCF: It is now 10.30 on the 21st April.
SC: Yes.
DCF: It is the 21st today, isn’t it'
SC: Yes.
DCF: Of the year 2008 and we are in a room in a house on Telford Avenue in Stevenage where neither of us have been before.
SC: OK
DCF: DC Eleanor JOHNSON is monitoring this interrogation Could you please tell m your name in full'
SC: Humm... Stephen John CARPENTER
DCF: And your date of birth'
SC: *******
DCF: Thank you. Would you prefer us to call you Stephen or Steve'
SC: Steve.
DCF: Steve it is then.
SC: Mm.
DCF:Okay, there is a letter for you, a letter to be handed to you ...
SC: Okay, thanks.
DCF: Before beginning the questioning and explaining the reason why you are here.
SC: Okay.
DCF: You can take a minute to read the contents if you wish..
(CARPENTER reads the letter): Yes, that’s fine..
DCF: Okay, as I already explained previously this will be filmed so that we can send the CD so that the Portuguese can hear instead of only reading the statement, once they get a copy.
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: And I know that before we begin the questioning, that you showed some concern about the truthful recording of the facts and that they could have had some distortions by what you have read about the event.
SC: Yes.
DCF: Therefore what we have agreed to do is to read your statement and put the facts together.
SC: Ah ha, yes that would seem right to me.
DCF: And afterwards I will ask you whether there is anything else you would like to add.
SC: Okay.
DCF: Or anything else that you would like to discuss and afterwards, afterwards I will ask the questions that we were requested.
SC: Okay.
DCF: And we can talk about this for as long as we need to, there is no time limit.
SC: Yes, fine.
DCF: Are you feeling all right'
SC: Yes, fine.
DC: Good. Right, this statement was taken by a UK police officer on the 17th May and so the facts should be quite fresh in your memory.
SC: Yes.
.
DCF: This is obviously 2007 and begins by explaining the reason for the questioning, in other words, relating to the disappearance of Madeleine. In the statement you say “I will mention the following persons who I will describe with greater detail at the end of the statement” Is it C*** or C******'
SC: C*****.
DCF: C***** is your wife and at the time of the events you had known her for nine years and I****** is your daughter aged three and a half and F***** is obviously your other child aged five months. During the holiday you met the following persons, Gerry and Kate McCann, saw their children, Madeleine and the twins, but don’t know their names. J*** C***** whom I met whilst playing tennis, I also met Dan and Georgia who were tennis instructors of the Mark Warner holiday resort (inaudible) I had met Dan on previous Mark Warner holidays at the (inaudible) resort. . I met the following persons when I participated in the searches for Madeleine during the day after her disappearance, Raj and Neil, Mark Warner tourists, John Hill, manager of the MW resort, we also used three babysitters, Pauline, Emma and Leanne. Emma and Leanne would look after our children in the evenings, they were all British and employees of MW. A man with three children whom I met in the Tapas Bar and who I referred to as the “Tapas Guy” and a Portuguese man in a garage whom I will refer to as the “laundry man”.
SC: Okay.
DCF:Okay. That was just to set the scene..
SC: Yes.
DCF: Neil and Raj, two MW tourists that I saw in the Tapas Bar who were looking for Madeleine with me, doesn’t make much sense, I think it was perhaps explaining who they are and where I met them. I will now describe the resort and to help me with this description I will base myself upon an aerial photograph from the Sun Newspaper dated the 16th May, which we do not have here today, but which is not important. The resort is a closed holiday complex with apartments and some villas. This takes us to the next question which is, how did you appear on the scene. “My wife booked the holidays in the MW resort in Praia da Luz, from Saturday 28th April to Saturday 5th May, at Going Places in Welwyn Garden City.” You go on to describe your previous holidays and that you chose this one because you were told that the “baby sitter” service was available. You arrived at the resort on Saturday morning, pardon on Saturday at approximately two in the afternoon and were accompanied to your apartment, FP02 Ocean Club.
At about 4.15 on the same day you went to a crèche meeting where you wee told who the crèche workers who would look after your children were and that your children would be in different groups given the difference in age. I**** was in the group for children between three and four years old, her crèche worker was Emma and it was only after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann that I realised that she was in the same group as I****. That night C****, F****, I**** and I went to the Millenium Restaurant, we did not see any of the other MW tourists there and I remember that I did not see any of the other people I mentioned in my statement there. On Sunday the 29th April C**** and I participated in a coffee morning of the MW tennis group where I met Gerry, Kate, J****, C****, R****, A***, G***, A***’s sister and A***, there were other tourists there whose names now escape me. In total there were approximately some sixteen people at this coffee morning and tennis was one of the activities that the man, or that both subscribed to during the week. I am summarising a bit, because.....
SC: Okay, that’s fine..
DCF: I first played tennis with Kate and G***n, there was another lady whose name I can’t remember and afterwards I played with Kate and G**** against Gerry and naturally after the game I spoke to Gerry and Kate as well as to the other people present. I think that this is just a setting of the scene.
SC: Yes, OK.
DCF: In this way I got to know Gerry and Kate and spoke with them as I did with other people.
SC: Yes.
.
DCF: And during my stay I would greet them when I met them. Later we pass to your activities during the week, do you remember if there was anything relevant in their activities during this week'
SC: Humm, anything relevant, not really....hummmm... it was normal, possibly after having left and now knowing where Murat was in relation to us, because i don’t know whether they showed you the proximity between us.
DCF: No.
SC: Let me show you some things about that, humm....let’s see, because...hummm, our apartment was not near to there.
DCF: Mmm mmm.
SC: Here was the club where Gerry was, behind Murat’s garden and here we were probably the people closest to Murat.
DCF: Thats true, I see.
SC: The bushes were all around here, we were far away from the rest, it was all open, and this is why I think (inaudible) you know, this is the idea that, humm...I think of when i mentioned in the interrogation that there was a laundry outlet where other things were kept.
DCF: Mmm, yes.
SC: But humm, nothing strange that someone wouldn’t do during their holidays, the only thing is thinking about our proximity to Murat’s property.
DCF: Yes, I understand, much of this is in the....
SC: Background.
DCF: Yes. When I went to the Tapas Bar and was seen there, talking on the Thurday 3rd May we analysed this in more detail because it was obviously more relevant. ”The second time I entered the Tapas Bar was on Thursday 3rd May” which ended up being the day that Madeleine disappeared.
.
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: We arrived at about seven because we had the children with us and I saw a man sitting at the table next to us with three children.
SC: Yes
.
DCF: He was going to take a plane the next day to Switzerland, given that the children’s mother lived there, I had never seen him before that night, but he ended up joining us for a coffee, he was a MW tourist. Another couple whose names I do not remember, sat at the table opposite us. A man was sitting on the esplanade having a drink whilst waiting for a take away, I spoke to them briefly, I hadn’t realised that the Tapas bar had a take away service. At that time i didn’t know their names. At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things, I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals (inaudible), I think it was to check on the children , but I do not remember with what frequency or how many times the people left the table to check on the children. We did not talk about the system for checking the children or the fact that they had left them alone in the apartment, it was only later upon hearing the news that I realised that they had left the children alone in the apartment and that they were regularly checking to see if they were all right. Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry’s apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling “Madeleine, Madeleine”, this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine’s disappearance”. OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'
SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn’t see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing “Madeleine, Madeleine” and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.
DCF: Yes, and where you state that it was on GMTV.
SC:: Yes..
DCF: I think that it was reported that it was a three year old child and probably thought who could it be and knew that Kate and Gerry were from Leicestershire and assumed that it was one of their children seeing that they had small children'
SC: Ah.
DCF: And afterwards you left your apartment to see if you could help in any way and as you said previously, everything was very quiet and there was nobody around. Then you say “I went to the MW reception and I met two of Gerry’s surfing friends who told me that Madeleine had been abducted on the previous night, I asked if there was anything I could do to help and I think they were waiting for news from the Portuguese police. We walked towards the supermarket and ended up at the 24 hour reception where some men tried to speak to some Portuguese employees in the attempt to make a phone call, but communication became complicated because the employee did not speak English and the man did not speak Portuguese. We returned to the MW reception where I asked whether there was anything I could do to help so that they would let me know and returned to my apartment by the same route as the previous night. Upon nearing my apartment I heard a male voice coming from the garden next to my apartment.
DCF: This would be the voice of Murat, correct'
SC: Yes. This garden is situated at the other side of the passage way from my apartment block and is enclosed by net fence of about 1.80 m in height, the garden is thick and it was not possible to see inside, there was also a passageway along the garden without a wall that was on the way from our apartment to the Millenium restaurant. At some stage I managed to see clearly inside the garden, but I did not know who was the owner of the house and I never saw anyone inside the garden or the house or see anyone leaving until the moment that I heard a voice calling me. Then a voice called me from over the hedge. “What is happening, or what is going on'”, I replied that a three year old girl had disappeared, he said “I am going to come round to talk to you” and he did this, walked round to come over towards me and said “I have lived here for fourteen years, I speak Portuguese fluently and I can help to translate”, and we introduced ourselves, he told me he was Robert and this was the first time I had seen this man. Robert mentioned that he had a daughter in Norfolk who was the same age as Madeleine, and that is why he was able to understand what they were going through. We walked back along the path that I had taken to Gerry’s apartment and I explained that Robert spoke Portuguese fluently, he told Gerry that it was important to have someone who spoke the language so that nothing would be lost in translation.. And that was how Robert Murat was presented as a translator.
DCF: Yes
SC: After he left, he explained that Gerry was frustrated with the way in which the case was being handled and they went to talk to John Hill.
DCF: Yes..
SC: In Mark Warner and he asked that all the Mark Warner rooms be opened so that he could check them and asked the cleaning ladies etc. to help open all the empty apartments that were not necessarily in the Mark Warner complex, but for which they might have the keys. At this moment I also met an English man called Dave who lived in the area and helped the Ocean Club to authorise entry into all the apartments possible, some of the apartments in Gerry’s block belonged to local owners and Dave helped to get the keys to these apartments so that they could check them and search them, they checked them all in a general manner.
DCF: Mmm mmm.
SC: Robert and I searched the areas near to the beach.
DCF: During your conversations with Robert is there anything that you would like to comment on'
SC: Humm, no, its probably nothing relevant, the only thing since all of this happened and from reading the papers, I’m not sure if I am right or wrong, but his involvement in the translations was due to my intervention, clearly it was I who, based upon what he told me, took him to see Gerry, humm..and just that, I do not know whether it was already explained and wasn’t published in the papers or I do not know why (inaudible) I think that the reason for his involvement was because of me.
.
DCF: Mmm.
SC: And then the first thing that he said was “Well, I did not actually offer my services, I “bumped” into this individual.
DCF: Yes:
SC: That is the only, only thing that I would correct and I think it is a bit strange that someone would state that they offer themselves as a volunteer, or the way in which it really happened after having told me that he spoke Portuguese fluently, I said to him “Well, in this case that could be useful” and afterwards accompanied him – and that was how he (inaudible) thought that it was a bit strange. Because the way he said it gave the impression that it was voluntary.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Whereas now the version is a bit different.
DCF: Yes, yes. And do you remember what you talked about whilst you were searching with him'
SC: Humm...he obviously talked to me about his daughter.
DCF: Yes.
SC: They had a team of sniffer dogs on site, they came from Lisbon according to what I was told, and afterwards we walked to the beach in the attempt to find the scent, to see of she had got lost alone or had fallen into the sea, and it was just him and me and the dog handlers, so that there was not any big theme of conversation, just walking the route – or on the way back, when we arrived we talked with different Portuguese police
Officers and afterwards with the officer who appeared to be leading the operation, a man who appeared to be from Forensics, but as I say now nothing appears very clear to me.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Humm... where Robert presented himself as being capable of speaking both languages and they couldn’t, they tried to use him in order to obtain a maximum of information from the English side, so that the Portuguese could understand what the people were saying and what state they were in... that was the involvement with the police and afterwards we tried to enter all the apartments that they had seen to where Gerry and Kate were staying.
DCF: Yes..
SC: And it was just talking about, you know...trying to get possible access and trying to open a maximum of doors in the area, and I think that was all.
DCF: You go on to describe in a little more detail the searches in the apartments neighbouring on Gerry and Kate’s apartment, then you met Neil and Raj who began to talk and told you that they had collaborated in the searches the night before.
SC: Yes. .
DCF: And they explained to you that they had seen a man with dreadlocks and they felt there was something suspicious about him, that they were not satisfied with him.
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: Then he introduced himself saying that he lived in Portugal and that he had just bought an apartment block.
.
SC: Yes.
DCF:
They were staying opposite Gerry’s block, that meant that they were more concentrated in that area.
SC: Yes, because Raj in particular said that he felt there was something strange and that he was not certain, and the fact of where they were staying, the fact that the back of the apartment block was opposite Kate and Gerry’s apartment, humm...and the fact that they even discussed the purchase price and how much he had paid, but the following morning there was no sign, even knocking on all the doors of the apartments that were occupied and those that were empty, we did not find anyone, he said, and that is why we thought it was strange that someone who had been available and collaborated in the searches and who lived in the area, was not found the following morning, because as you know, we were not contactable.
DCF: No sign of him and you remember that you were worried about this man who was described as being fifty years of age with grey hair.
SC:Ah ha.
DCF: And it seemed strange that a person who helped so much on the previous night disappeared the following morning.
SC: Yes, I suppose there was something that even the local Portuguese would be incapable of identifying (inaudible) or recognising for the description of a poster especially.
DCF: Who it was.
SC: Hummm.. then it was just a question of asking who he might be, where he was and to be able to eliminate him from the list of suspects, so that he would be at least one less person to worry about.
DCF: And did you speak to Robert about this as the person who was also on the scene'
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: On Saturday morning, the 5th May you spoke to a BBC reporter.
SC: Yes.
DCF: You told them that you remember that some of the reporters were being unfair and incorrect because they were treating the situation as that of a missing child and not of a child whom had been abducted.
SC: Yes.
DCF: And you go on to say that you spoke to Robert that day about how the Portuguese Police were unhappy with the incomprehensible way in which the British press treated them.
SC: That was what he said. What he explained to me.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Yes.
.
DCF: Yes, you met Gerry in the swimming pool area on Saturday afternoon, he told you that the fifty year old man had not been taken into consideration, that the Leicestershire police were on their way and you gave him your phone number and returned to England that night.
SC: Yes.
DCF: You certainly followed the events on television.
SC: Yes.
DCF: Humm... afterwards you say that on the 17th May you sent an email to Sky News about the description of an individual aged about fifty, humm.... on the 14th May you saw a report at the end of the news which mentioned that Robert Murat had been named a suspect.
SC: Yes (inaudible) I spoke to a Sky reporter, I think it was Ian Woods, hummm...did I write that down there'
DCF: Its here, yes.
SC: Ah yes, yes and afterwards, humm...with Murat well...I just caught a glimpse of him on TV, it was rather my wife who phoned Philomena afterwards who then suggested that we contact the police support service.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And that is what I did, and afterwards the Hertford police contacted us.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Two days later I think.
DCF: Exactly, you phoned the criminal support number and was transferred to the Operational Squad of the Leicestershire Police Force which is where we are working.
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: And we made a request to the local police to collect your statement and it was in this sequence that your statement arrived. It is likely that my papers are not in order because this page is more about the details of the search of the apartments near to Gerry’s apartment and mentions the man from the laundry.
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: And about the searches carried out.
SC: I remember that, yes.
DCF: You spoke to a man who later showed you a garage where there was a bed.
SC: Yes, well what happened was that, Gerry’s apartment was here because it was not a flat area, it was more or less like this and that is why the opposite apartments were higher.
DCF: Correct.
SC: That is why it could obviously be seen, these apartments could be looked over from above and all the lower parts and where we, hummm.. this is where the grey haired man was.
DCF: Right.
SC: Who had supposedly acquired a property, and that is why I strongly suggested that we should open the maximum possible number of doors,...I can’t remember the name of the man who I also met by chance and who was doing some translating, what was his name again, who helped open the doors.
DCF: Was it John HILL'
SC: No, John Hill was a Mark Warner employee, I can’t remember his name, but he...humm also knew the local estate agent and different people who helped to get the keys of the properties from the letters, some of whom were on holiday.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And once the garage door was opened, it was not just a garage for a car, it was a type of “capsule” of about six by nine metres in size which became longer where there was a bed in the corner, and it was when we were searching this, the English man with grey hair whose identity I did not know, but who had explained this to me.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Humm... this garage belonged to a Portuguese man, the man from the laundry.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And when we entered the garage I asked who lived there, he replied that his son lived there and then there were distractions and because I was concentrated on the fifty year old English man, this man is Portuguese, it was only afterwards when I thought later about what we were searching for, it didn’t occur to me and I think it is because of this that i mentioned it in my statement two weeks later, because I remember that there had been some distortions.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Of course with Murat there is Murat and the Russian individual, you know....I thought that we might well be looking for the totally wrong person and the fact that a bed existed in the garage and some children’s toys.
DCF: Yes.
SC: I thought, ohhh...its worth mentioning this and that’s the reason I mentioned it in my statement.
DCF: Fine, now (inaudible) describe the Portuguese man, the laundry man to me, yes'
SC: Yes.
I am certain that I read about this at the beginning, which (inaudible)' I think that afterwards, and afterwards coincides with the fact that he was the man from the laundry and of the van parked there, because as i have already explained, we were here in a small street here above which linked to the main road and to everything beside here on top, the rest was all pathways and I remember that on two or three occasions I thought...this is a dead end road, the van was parked there, I never saw anyone and more than once assumed that it would be cleaning staff and only this thought coincided with the presence of the man from the laundry, and if there were any reply to be made in relation to the link between the van parked there and the laundry man.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Murat here, I think and the laundry thing here.
DCF: Yes
SC: And I would once again give the reason why I mentioned the subject..
DCF: Of what age did the laundry man appear to be'
SC: Humm, I do not remember clearly what I said, but obviously at times Europeans appear older than they are, because of
DCF...(inaudible) the sun.
SC: Yes with the sun, that was what I said in the statement (inaudible).
DCF: I am going to try to locate the first pages where it was mentioned, but there is no description.
SC: Forty five to fifty years old, I think.
DCF: I’m just trying to think what age the man would be, it is difficult to say for the man that I saw, but he would have been of an age that implied that he could have a small child living in the garage or it could be expected that the had a grown up child.
SC: Oh, I think he would have been about, you know.... eighteen years, twenty or twenty two years old to live in the back of a garage because it had large cupboards and other things, but to live in a garage would mean that he had to be eighteen or more, because of a question of safety and because it was not the best way to live.
DCF: No. Then as you say the children’s toys seemed to you to be out of context'
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Yes, mainly because I would think of someone aged eighteen or slightly more.
DCF: And then the Mark Warner staff, obviously it was after your return when this was still being investigated, the staff had photos of Madeleine that the man handed to an individual called C**** and his girlfriend to be distributed.
SC: Ah ah, yes.
DCF: Its in the part where it mentions that there was a van, and says that it was parked at the back of Robert Murat'’ garden, and that you never saw anyone use the van, but you remember that it had something to do with the cleaning staff.
SC: Yes, to transport the bedlinen and towels.
DCF: Yes. It says here that you never saw anyone drive it, you just know that you saw it parked, did you ever notice that it was missing or do you remember always seeing it there'
SC:Humm, no...no it was not always there, I saw it about two or three times.
DCF: OK. And it continues, obviously there are some details about the van and its description in case it would be necessary to come back to this statement. So during the week, you played tennis with Gerry about three times'
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: On Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, it says here that you got on well, that he communicated easily, he was fun, he talked to you about golf which was his favourite sport, that he wanted to improve his tennis during the week. On Sunday or Monday he twisted his ankle, but managed to keep on playing, and on Sunday morning he only played tennis with Kate, that you saw them both playing sport and they passed by you to the bar on the beach and this was Sunday or Monday at about mid day.
SC: Mmm, mmm.
DCF: And you saw both Gerry and Kate at the Tapas Bar on Sunday and afterwards on Thursday in the evening, apart from these occasions you just saw them in passing at the resort and you had no opportunity to get to know Kate'
SC: No.
DCF: OK. Is there anything else that you would like to comment on or talk about in relation to the time that you were in the resort before the police, or before the disappearance of Madeleine'
SC: In relation to the holiday or to something strange that I remember'
DCF: Yes, is there anything in your memory that you think could be significant but that you didn’t mention before because you thought it was a bit...
SC: No, no...until that moment it was an extremely enjoyable holiday, I think that we had already been at other Mark Warner resorts and they were more than a complex and because of that all the people in the area were Mark Warner tourists, here it was different because we could meet the same person two or three times a day, others could spend three or four days without seeing them because some were staying at this side and others on the other side and so, you know...we were not...it was not a large holiday centre but this was reasonably normal.
DCF: OK. Do you agree with me putting these questions now'
SC: Yes, that’s fine, are they the questions from the police'
DCF: Yes, from the way they are written, I think they are all from the Portuguese police.
SC: OK.
DCF: Because sometimes translations are a bit different.
SC: OK.
DCF: However, I think there are no questions from Gerry and Kate that would be necessary to ask you, as I have stated previously, there are other interrogations where that was necessary.
SC: Oh.
DCF: Fine, on what day between the 28th April and 3rd May did you meet Gerry McCann and Kate Healy, I think this has already been mentioned in the statement that we have just gone through.
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: However I am going to read this and you do not have to reply again. How frequently would you meet up between the 28th April and 3rd May and once again we have just been through this.
SC: From there onwards.
DCF: Oh yes, not from there, it was even before Madeleine disappeared. Did you see them with Madeleine and the other two children'
.
SC: Humm...I don’t remember what I said in my statement, I am not sure about this because when I think about the past, and I know that he was playing tennis and I imagine something different, that’s why...humm I can’t specify hours and dates.
DCF: Ok. If you can remember the occasion upon which you saw them, how was the children’s behaviour'.
SC: Humm. I can’t reply because I was not concentrating on this type of thing, that’s why...hmmm, I cannot even reply to this.
DCF: No, but I was thinking from the point of view of common sense, after the disappearance of Madeleine, any doubt that you could have had.
SC: Oh, after the disappearance'
DCF: No, what I was thinking here was that after her disappearance, you would probably have reflected upon whether you saw anything.
SC: Hummm... I remember talking to Gerry, because I had to go and fetch I*** and they were playing in the small garden and he was (inaudible), I***** and I thought it was Maddie, I am not absolutely sure but, he seemed to me to be a decent type, a good father, affectionate with his children, very easy to talk to, very good with the children, with a comfortable manner even when talking to I**** about little things, completely dedicated to the children.
DCF: OK, I’m certain that if there were anything strange in his behaviour, you would certainly remember that.
SC: Yes, certainly.
DCF: Did you see either of them in a car'
SC: See either of whom'
DCF: I think this refers to the McCann family, did you ever see them in a car'
SC: Humm, during that week'
DCF: Mmm, mmm.
SC: I think not.
DCF: Did you see Kate or Gerry on the Thursday 3rd May, obviously this was the day when Madeleine disappeared already mentioned in your statement.
SC: Yes, in the restaurant, yes.
DCF: Do you remember if you saw them before the evening'
SC: Humm... I think that we played tennis during the afternoon on Thursday.
DCF: Yes.
SC: I’m not certain, I remember that it was on Thursday that there were four individuals with whom we used to share the tennis courts, and I think that I mentioned this in my statement, I would say that it was on Thursday that we played tennis and I think that this was what we talked about in the Tapas bar.
DCF: OK, do you have any idea of what time you played tennis with Gerry'
SC: Humm... from two to four or from two until any time in the afternoon, I remember it coincided with leaving the kids in the crèche and picking them up.
DCF: OK, and it asks here what his behaviour was like on Thursday, 3rd May'
SC: His behaviour during the day or'
DCF: On all the occasions that you saw him.
SC: Always very good.
DCF: When did you realise that Madeleine had disappeared, you have already said that it was on the following day.
SC: On Friday morning.
DCF: And you took part in the searches as you have already described. Did you see Kate or Gerald after Madeleine’s disappearance'
SC: Yes.
DCF: When'
SC: Hummm, the first time was when I introduced Robert Murat to Gerry, I think that he was alone at that moment...humm, or Kate was there, I’m not sure, but afterwards I saw him on Saturday before returning home, but thinking of the time on Friday morning when I introduced Murat, I think that I did not see him again until Saturday.
DCF: OK and the next question is what was their reaction and I think this means their reaction to Madeleine not being there'
.
SC: Destroyed, like any father or mother would be.
DCF: At what time did you arrive at the Tapas restaurant on 3rd May (inaudible)'
SC: At seven, I think at seven, yes.
DCF: Yes and you say that Kate and Gerald arrived at about half past eight, what was the theme of the conversation'
SC: I think it was just holiday chat, I think that we talked about our tennis and the good and bad aspects.
DCF: And who else was at the restaurant, well.... you have already referred to this in your statement.
SC: Yes.
DCF: Did you see Kate or Gerry leave the table before you'
SC: (Inaudible).
DCF: I think that this means the coming and going of people during the evening.
SC: Yes, I remember that people would absent themselves intermittently at different times, but I did not know why.
DCF: no.
SC: But as we discovered later, it was to check on the children.
DCF: And I imagine that your attention was directed towards your family and (inaudible).
SC: Yes, because we obviously had our two with us and we were on this side of the table, the single man with three small children was here and I****was playing with them, so we were more or less a group if you would like to call it that, of which they were a part, I think that all the ten members were there and some of us would speak to others here and on the other side of the table.
DCF: At what time did you leave the Tapas bar'
SC: I think it was at about half past nine.
DCF: I think that is what you said.
SC: Yes.
DCF: And you were accompanied, you replied that you were with your children and your wife. Where did you go afterwards, it says here...before going back to your apartment, can you describe the route you took'
SC: Directly to the apartment.
DCF: Did you see anyone outside the Tapas Bar or outside the apartments'
SC: If I saw anyone outside the Tapas bar or, hummm.. on the way home presumably'
DCF: Yes, is there anyone you remember that night, did you see anyone in the area'
SC: No.
DCF: At what time did you go to bed'
SC: Almost immediately, we put the children to bed because it was already quite late for them, humm... about half past ten, yes, about half past ten (inaudible).
DCF: And that’s it, those were the questions.
SC: OK.
DCF: So I would say there were no surprises. Is there anything else that you think we should talk about'
SC: Hummm, no I think that’s all, I spoke about Murat, hummm, about the meeting, no there is nothing more to add.
DCF: OK. Lets check with Eleanor to see if we have missed anything.
DCF leaves the interrogation room.
DCF enters the interrogation room.
DCF: No and I cannot think of anything else so we can close the interrogation.
SC: Fine.
DCF: It is 11.10, although my watch does not have numbers, so this is an approximate time.
SC: OK. And the interrogation ends here, I’m sure that Eleanor will unplug the recorder in the next room.
SC: Fine, ok.
DCF: Now we just need to write...the CD stopped and began again showing the time as 10.38.10.
Signature____________
RESTRICTED
Statement number S87B
Printed version of recorded document
Surname: CARPENTER
First name. STEPHEN
Profession: Maintenance Technician
Date of Statement: 21/04/2008- Number of pages : 1
I am the person referred to above and I live at the address provided to the police.
I confirm that I was questioned by DC 4078 Ferguson from Leicestershire police on 21st April 2008.
The questioning began at 10.30 and finished at 11.10 on the same day. The questioning was filmed on DVD and on cassette. This statement was made by me and is truthful according to my understanding.
The questioning took place at the police station in Stevenage, Hertfordshire on the 21st April 2008.
I would be more than satisfied if the evidence presented by me was used and if required to appear at court in Portugal I would need to be notified in advance. .
Statement
Date 21st April 2008
Pages: 1
Statement of Stephen Carpenter
Leicestershire Police Force
Form MG15 (T)
Officer who conducted the questioning: DC 4078 Ferguson
Pages: 26
_____________________________
__
Duration of Interview: 39 minutes
DCF: Do you agree with me reading out your statement'
SC: Yes, I agree, yes.
DCF: Or would you prefer to read out the statement yourself'
SC: No, thats fine, you can read it.
DCF: I thought it would make more sense that way:
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: So when we get to the moment that refers to Portugal, it will refresh your memory.
SC: Please can I take some notes'
DCF: Yes of course. I’ll get you a sheet of paper.
SC: Yes, OK.
DCF: I will have to go and get one because I haven’t got my bag with me.
.
DC FERGUSON leaves the interrogation room..
DC FERGUSON returns to the interrogation room.
DCF: This was the best I could find.
SC: Yes, that’s fine, its just for small details like people’s names.
DCF: Yes.
SC: That would be, humm the babysitters and the people I played tennis with. I’ve got, hummm I almost remember all of their names. .
DCF: I would just like to introduce myself, I am DC Sophie Ferguson. I work for the Main Criminal Unit of the Leicestershire police and we have obviously been working on the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, to provide assistance to the Portuguese and the reason for which we are here today is because the Portuguese have asked us to carry out some questioning of some of the witnesses.
SC: Agreed.
DCF: And also, Gerry and Kate have the right to ask the witnesses some questions and for that reason some of the questionings carried out incorporate questions suggested by them.
SC. OK.
DCF: It is now 10.30 on the 21st April.
SC: Yes.
DCF: It is the 21st today, isn’t it'
SC: Yes.
DCF: Of the year 2008 and we are in a room in a house on Telford Avenue in Stevenage where neither of us have been before.
SC: OK
DCF: DC Eleanor JOHNSON is monitoring this interrogation Could you please tell m your name in full'
SC: Humm... Stephen John CARPENTER
DCF: And your date of birth'
SC: *******
DCF: Thank you. Would you prefer us to call you Stephen or Steve'
SC: Steve.
DCF: Steve it is then.
SC: Mm.
DCF:Okay, there is a letter for you, a letter to be handed to you ...
SC: Okay, thanks.
DCF: Before beginning the questioning and explaining the reason why you are here.
SC: Okay.
DCF: You can take a minute to read the contents if you wish..
(CARPENTER reads the letter): Yes, that’s fine..
DCF: Okay, as I already explained previously this will be filmed so that we can send the CD so that the Portuguese can hear instead of only reading the statement, once they get a copy.
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: And I know that before we begin the questioning, that you showed some concern about the truthful recording of the facts and that they could have had some distortions by what you have read about the event.
SC: Yes.
DCF: Therefore what we have agreed to do is to read your statement and put the facts together.
SC: Ah ha, yes that would seem right to me.
DCF: And afterwards I will ask you whether there is anything else you would like to add.
SC: Okay.
DCF: Or anything else that you would like to discuss and afterwards, afterwards I will ask the questions that we were requested.
SC: Okay.
DCF: And we can talk about this for as long as we need to, there is no time limit.
SC: Yes, fine.
DCF: Are you feeling all right'
SC: Yes, fine.
DC: Good. Right, this statement was taken by a UK police officer on the 17th May and so the facts should be quite fresh in your memory.
SC: Yes.
.
DCF: This is obviously 2007 and begins by explaining the reason for the questioning, in other words, relating to the disappearance of Madeleine. In the statement you say “I will mention the following persons who I will describe with greater detail at the end of the statement” Is it C*** or C******'
SC: C*****.
DCF: C***** is your wife and at the time of the events you had known her for nine years and I****** is your daughter aged three and a half and F***** is obviously your other child aged five months. During the holiday you met the following persons, Gerry and Kate McCann, saw their children, Madeleine and the twins, but don’t know their names. J*** C***** whom I met whilst playing tennis, I also met Dan and Georgia who were tennis instructors of the Mark Warner holiday resort (inaudible) I had met Dan on previous Mark Warner holidays at the (inaudible) resort. . I met the following persons when I participated in the searches for Madeleine during the day after her disappearance, Raj and Neil, Mark Warner tourists, John Hill, manager of the MW resort, we also used three babysitters, Pauline, Emma and Leanne. Emma and Leanne would look after our children in the evenings, they were all British and employees of MW. A man with three children whom I met in the Tapas Bar and who I referred to as the “Tapas Guy” and a Portuguese man in a garage whom I will refer to as the “laundry man”.
SC: Okay.
DCF:Okay. That was just to set the scene..
SC: Yes.
DCF: Neil and Raj, two MW tourists that I saw in the Tapas Bar who were looking for Madeleine with me, doesn’t make much sense, I think it was perhaps explaining who they are and where I met them. I will now describe the resort and to help me with this description I will base myself upon an aerial photograph from the Sun Newspaper dated the 16th May, which we do not have here today, but which is not important. The resort is a closed holiday complex with apartments and some villas. This takes us to the next question which is, how did you appear on the scene. “My wife booked the holidays in the MW resort in Praia da Luz, from Saturday 28th April to Saturday 5th May, at Going Places in Welwyn Garden City.” You go on to describe your previous holidays and that you chose this one because you were told that the “baby sitter” service was available. You arrived at the resort on Saturday morning, pardon on Saturday at approximately two in the afternoon and were accompanied to your apartment, FP02 Ocean Club.
At about 4.15 on the same day you went to a crèche meeting where you wee told who the crèche workers who would look after your children were and that your children would be in different groups given the difference in age. I**** was in the group for children between three and four years old, her crèche worker was Emma and it was only after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann that I realised that she was in the same group as I****. That night C****, F****, I**** and I went to the Millenium Restaurant, we did not see any of the other MW tourists there and I remember that I did not see any of the other people I mentioned in my statement there. On Sunday the 29th April C**** and I participated in a coffee morning of the MW tennis group where I met Gerry, Kate, J****, C****, R****, A***, G***, A***’s sister and A***, there were other tourists there whose names now escape me. In total there were approximately some sixteen people at this coffee morning and tennis was one of the activities that the man, or that both subscribed to during the week. I am summarising a bit, because.....
SC: Okay, that’s fine..
DCF: I first played tennis with Kate and G***n, there was another lady whose name I can’t remember and afterwards I played with Kate and G**** against Gerry and naturally after the game I spoke to Gerry and Kate as well as to the other people present. I think that this is just a setting of the scene.
SC: Yes, OK.
DCF: In this way I got to know Gerry and Kate and spoke with them as I did with other people.
SC: Yes.
.
DCF: And during my stay I would greet them when I met them. Later we pass to your activities during the week, do you remember if there was anything relevant in their activities during this week'
SC: Humm, anything relevant, not really....hummmm... it was normal, possibly after having left and now knowing where Murat was in relation to us, because i don’t know whether they showed you the proximity between us.
DCF: No.
SC: Let me show you some things about that, humm....let’s see, because...hummm, our apartment was not near to there.
DCF: Mmm mmm.
SC: Here was the club where Gerry was, behind Murat’s garden and here we were probably the people closest to Murat.
DCF: Thats true, I see.
SC: The bushes were all around here, we were far away from the rest, it was all open, and this is why I think (inaudible) you know, this is the idea that, humm...I think of when i mentioned in the interrogation that there was a laundry outlet where other things were kept.
DCF: Mmm, yes.
SC: But humm, nothing strange that someone wouldn’t do during their holidays, the only thing is thinking about our proximity to Murat’s property.
DCF: Yes, I understand, much of this is in the....
SC: Background.
DCF: Yes. When I went to the Tapas Bar and was seen there, talking on the Thurday 3rd May we analysed this in more detail because it was obviously more relevant. ”The second time I entered the Tapas Bar was on Thursday 3rd May” which ended up being the day that Madeleine disappeared.
.
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: We arrived at about seven because we had the children with us and I saw a man sitting at the table next to us with three children.
SC: Yes
.
DCF: He was going to take a plane the next day to Switzerland, given that the children’s mother lived there, I had never seen him before that night, but he ended up joining us for a coffee, he was a MW tourist. Another couple whose names I do not remember, sat at the table opposite us. A man was sitting on the esplanade having a drink whilst waiting for a take away, I spoke to them briefly, I hadn’t realised that the Tapas bar had a take away service. At that time i didn’t know their names. At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things, I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals (inaudible), I think it was to check on the children , but I do not remember with what frequency or how many times the people left the table to check on the children. We did not talk about the system for checking the children or the fact that they had left them alone in the apartment, it was only later upon hearing the news that I realised that they had left the children alone in the apartment and that they were regularly checking to see if they were all right. Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry’s apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling “Madeleine, Madeleine”, this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine’s disappearance”. OK, before going on the next part, do you remember at what time you left'
SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn’t see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing “Madeleine, Madeleine” and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.
DCF: Yes, and where you state that it was on GMTV.
SC:: Yes..
DCF: I think that it was reported that it was a three year old child and probably thought who could it be and knew that Kate and Gerry were from Leicestershire and assumed that it was one of their children seeing that they had small children'
SC: Ah.
DCF: And afterwards you left your apartment to see if you could help in any way and as you said previously, everything was very quiet and there was nobody around. Then you say “I went to the MW reception and I met two of Gerry’s surfing friends who told me that Madeleine had been abducted on the previous night, I asked if there was anything I could do to help and I think they were waiting for news from the Portuguese police. We walked towards the supermarket and ended up at the 24 hour reception where some men tried to speak to some Portuguese employees in the attempt to make a phone call, but communication became complicated because the employee did not speak English and the man did not speak Portuguese. We returned to the MW reception where I asked whether there was anything I could do to help so that they would let me know and returned to my apartment by the same route as the previous night. Upon nearing my apartment I heard a male voice coming from the garden next to my apartment.
DCF: This would be the voice of Murat, correct'
SC: Yes. This garden is situated at the other side of the passage way from my apartment block and is enclosed by net fence of about 1.80 m in height, the garden is thick and it was not possible to see inside, there was also a passageway along the garden without a wall that was on the way from our apartment to the Millenium restaurant. At some stage I managed to see clearly inside the garden, but I did not know who was the owner of the house and I never saw anyone inside the garden or the house or see anyone leaving until the moment that I heard a voice calling me. Then a voice called me from over the hedge. “What is happening, or what is going on'”, I replied that a three year old girl had disappeared, he said “I am going to come round to talk to you” and he did this, walked round to come over towards me and said “I have lived here for fourteen years, I speak Portuguese fluently and I can help to translate”, and we introduced ourselves, he told me he was Robert and this was the first time I had seen this man. Robert mentioned that he had a daughter in Norfolk who was the same age as Madeleine, and that is why he was able to understand what they were going through. We walked back along the path that I had taken to Gerry’s apartment and I explained that Robert spoke Portuguese fluently, he told Gerry that it was important to have someone who spoke the language so that nothing would be lost in translation.. And that was how Robert Murat was presented as a translator.
DCF: Yes
SC: After he left, he explained that Gerry was frustrated with the way in which the case was being handled and they went to talk to John Hill.
DCF: Yes..
SC: In Mark Warner and he asked that all the Mark Warner rooms be opened so that he could check them and asked the cleaning ladies etc. to help open all the empty apartments that were not necessarily in the Mark Warner complex, but for which they might have the keys. At this moment I also met an English man called Dave who lived in the area and helped the Ocean Club to authorise entry into all the apartments possible, some of the apartments in Gerry’s block belonged to local owners and Dave helped to get the keys to these apartments so that they could check them and search them, they checked them all in a general manner.
DCF: Mmm mmm.
SC: Robert and I searched the areas near to the beach.
DCF: During your conversations with Robert is there anything that you would like to comment on'
SC: Humm, no, its probably nothing relevant, the only thing since all of this happened and from reading the papers, I’m not sure if I am right or wrong, but his involvement in the translations was due to my intervention, clearly it was I who, based upon what he told me, took him to see Gerry, humm..and just that, I do not know whether it was already explained and wasn’t published in the papers or I do not know why (inaudible) I think that the reason for his involvement was because of me.
.
DCF: Mmm.
SC: And then the first thing that he said was “Well, I did not actually offer my services, I “bumped” into this individual.
DCF: Yes:
SC: That is the only, only thing that I would correct and I think it is a bit strange that someone would state that they offer themselves as a volunteer, or the way in which it really happened after having told me that he spoke Portuguese fluently, I said to him “Well, in this case that could be useful” and afterwards accompanied him – and that was how he (inaudible) thought that it was a bit strange. Because the way he said it gave the impression that it was voluntary.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Whereas now the version is a bit different.
DCF: Yes, yes. And do you remember what you talked about whilst you were searching with him'
SC: Humm...he obviously talked to me about his daughter.
DCF: Yes.
SC: They had a team of sniffer dogs on site, they came from Lisbon according to what I was told, and afterwards we walked to the beach in the attempt to find the scent, to see of she had got lost alone or had fallen into the sea, and it was just him and me and the dog handlers, so that there was not any big theme of conversation, just walking the route – or on the way back, when we arrived we talked with different Portuguese police
Officers and afterwards with the officer who appeared to be leading the operation, a man who appeared to be from Forensics, but as I say now nothing appears very clear to me.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Humm... where Robert presented himself as being capable of speaking both languages and they couldn’t, they tried to use him in order to obtain a maximum of information from the English side, so that the Portuguese could understand what the people were saying and what state they were in... that was the involvement with the police and afterwards we tried to enter all the apartments that they had seen to where Gerry and Kate were staying.
DCF: Yes..
SC: And it was just talking about, you know...trying to get possible access and trying to open a maximum of doors in the area, and I think that was all.
DCF: You go on to describe in a little more detail the searches in the apartments neighbouring on Gerry and Kate’s apartment, then you met Neil and Raj who began to talk and told you that they had collaborated in the searches the night before.
SC: Yes. .
DCF: And they explained to you that they had seen a man with dreadlocks and they felt there was something suspicious about him, that they were not satisfied with him.
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: Then he introduced himself saying that he lived in Portugal and that he had just bought an apartment block.
.
SC: Yes.
DCF:
They were staying opposite Gerry’s block, that meant that they were more concentrated in that area.
SC: Yes, because Raj in particular said that he felt there was something strange and that he was not certain, and the fact of where they were staying, the fact that the back of the apartment block was opposite Kate and Gerry’s apartment, humm...and the fact that they even discussed the purchase price and how much he had paid, but the following morning there was no sign, even knocking on all the doors of the apartments that were occupied and those that were empty, we did not find anyone, he said, and that is why we thought it was strange that someone who had been available and collaborated in the searches and who lived in the area, was not found the following morning, because as you know, we were not contactable.
DCF: No sign of him and you remember that you were worried about this man who was described as being fifty years of age with grey hair.
SC:Ah ha.
DCF: And it seemed strange that a person who helped so much on the previous night disappeared the following morning.
SC: Yes, I suppose there was something that even the local Portuguese would be incapable of identifying (inaudible) or recognising for the description of a poster especially.
DCF: Who it was.
SC: Hummm.. then it was just a question of asking who he might be, where he was and to be able to eliminate him from the list of suspects, so that he would be at least one less person to worry about.
DCF: And did you speak to Robert about this as the person who was also on the scene'
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: On Saturday morning, the 5th May you spoke to a BBC reporter.
SC: Yes.
DCF: You told them that you remember that some of the reporters were being unfair and incorrect because they were treating the situation as that of a missing child and not of a child whom had been abducted.
SC: Yes.
DCF: And you go on to say that you spoke to Robert that day about how the Portuguese Police were unhappy with the incomprehensible way in which the British press treated them.
SC: That was what he said. What he explained to me.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Yes.
.
DCF: Yes, you met Gerry in the swimming pool area on Saturday afternoon, he told you that the fifty year old man had not been taken into consideration, that the Leicestershire police were on their way and you gave him your phone number and returned to England that night.
SC: Yes.
DCF: You certainly followed the events on television.
SC: Yes.
DCF: Humm... afterwards you say that on the 17th May you sent an email to Sky News about the description of an individual aged about fifty, humm.... on the 14th May you saw a report at the end of the news which mentioned that Robert Murat had been named a suspect.
SC: Yes (inaudible) I spoke to a Sky reporter, I think it was Ian Woods, hummm...did I write that down there'
DCF: Its here, yes.
SC: Ah yes, yes and afterwards, humm...with Murat well...I just caught a glimpse of him on TV, it was rather my wife who phoned Philomena afterwards who then suggested that we contact the police support service.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And that is what I did, and afterwards the Hertford police contacted us.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Two days later I think.
DCF: Exactly, you phoned the criminal support number and was transferred to the Operational Squad of the Leicestershire Police Force which is where we are working.
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: And we made a request to the local police to collect your statement and it was in this sequence that your statement arrived. It is likely that my papers are not in order because this page is more about the details of the search of the apartments near to Gerry’s apartment and mentions the man from the laundry.
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: And about the searches carried out.
SC: I remember that, yes.
DCF: You spoke to a man who later showed you a garage where there was a bed.
SC: Yes, well what happened was that, Gerry’s apartment was here because it was not a flat area, it was more or less like this and that is why the opposite apartments were higher.
DCF: Correct.
SC: That is why it could obviously be seen, these apartments could be looked over from above and all the lower parts and where we, hummm.. this is where the grey haired man was.
DCF: Right.
SC: Who had supposedly acquired a property, and that is why I strongly suggested that we should open the maximum possible number of doors,...I can’t remember the name of the man who I also met by chance and who was doing some translating, what was his name again, who helped open the doors.
DCF: Was it John HILL'
SC: No, John Hill was a Mark Warner employee, I can’t remember his name, but he...humm also knew the local estate agent and different people who helped to get the keys of the properties from the letters, some of whom were on holiday.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And once the garage door was opened, it was not just a garage for a car, it was a type of “capsule” of about six by nine metres in size which became longer where there was a bed in the corner, and it was when we were searching this, the English man with grey hair whose identity I did not know, but who had explained this to me.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Humm... this garage belonged to a Portuguese man, the man from the laundry.
DCF: Yes.
SC: And when we entered the garage I asked who lived there, he replied that his son lived there and then there were distractions and because I was concentrated on the fifty year old English man, this man is Portuguese, it was only afterwards when I thought later about what we were searching for, it didn’t occur to me and I think it is because of this that i mentioned it in my statement two weeks later, because I remember that there had been some distortions.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Of course with Murat there is Murat and the Russian individual, you know....I thought that we might well be looking for the totally wrong person and the fact that a bed existed in the garage and some children’s toys.
DCF: Yes.
SC: I thought, ohhh...its worth mentioning this and that’s the reason I mentioned it in my statement.
DCF: Fine, now (inaudible) describe the Portuguese man, the laundry man to me, yes'
SC: Yes.
I am certain that I read about this at the beginning, which (inaudible)' I think that afterwards, and afterwards coincides with the fact that he was the man from the laundry and of the van parked there, because as i have already explained, we were here in a small street here above which linked to the main road and to everything beside here on top, the rest was all pathways and I remember that on two or three occasions I thought...this is a dead end road, the van was parked there, I never saw anyone and more than once assumed that it would be cleaning staff and only this thought coincided with the presence of the man from the laundry, and if there were any reply to be made in relation to the link between the van parked there and the laundry man.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Murat here, I think and the laundry thing here.
DCF: Yes
SC: And I would once again give the reason why I mentioned the subject..
DCF: Of what age did the laundry man appear to be'
SC: Humm, I do not remember clearly what I said, but obviously at times Europeans appear older than they are, because of
DCF...(inaudible) the sun.
SC: Yes with the sun, that was what I said in the statement (inaudible).
DCF: I am going to try to locate the first pages where it was mentioned, but there is no description.
SC: Forty five to fifty years old, I think.
DCF: I’m just trying to think what age the man would be, it is difficult to say for the man that I saw, but he would have been of an age that implied that he could have a small child living in the garage or it could be expected that the had a grown up child.
SC: Oh, I think he would have been about, you know.... eighteen years, twenty or twenty two years old to live in the back of a garage because it had large cupboards and other things, but to live in a garage would mean that he had to be eighteen or more, because of a question of safety and because it was not the best way to live.
DCF: No. Then as you say the children’s toys seemed to you to be out of context'
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: Yes.
SC: Yes, mainly because I would think of someone aged eighteen or slightly more.
DCF: And then the Mark Warner staff, obviously it was after your return when this was still being investigated, the staff had photos of Madeleine that the man handed to an individual called C**** and his girlfriend to be distributed.
SC: Ah ah, yes.
DCF: Its in the part where it mentions that there was a van, and says that it was parked at the back of Robert Murat'’ garden, and that you never saw anyone use the van, but you remember that it had something to do with the cleaning staff.
SC: Yes, to transport the bedlinen and towels.
DCF: Yes. It says here that you never saw anyone drive it, you just know that you saw it parked, did you ever notice that it was missing or do you remember always seeing it there'
SC:Humm, no...no it was not always there, I saw it about two or three times.
DCF: OK. And it continues, obviously there are some details about the van and its description in case it would be necessary to come back to this statement. So during the week, you played tennis with Gerry about three times'
SC: Ah ha.
DCF: On Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, it says here that you got on well, that he communicated easily, he was fun, he talked to you about golf which was his favourite sport, that he wanted to improve his tennis during the week. On Sunday or Monday he twisted his ankle, but managed to keep on playing, and on Sunday morning he only played tennis with Kate, that you saw them both playing sport and they passed by you to the bar on the beach and this was Sunday or Monday at about mid day.
SC: Mmm, mmm.
DCF: And you saw both Gerry and Kate at the Tapas Bar on Sunday and afterwards on Thursday in the evening, apart from these occasions you just saw them in passing at the resort and you had no opportunity to get to know Kate'
SC: No.
DCF: OK. Is there anything else that you would like to comment on or talk about in relation to the time that you were in the resort before the police, or before the disappearance of Madeleine'
SC: In relation to the holiday or to something strange that I remember'
DCF: Yes, is there anything in your memory that you think could be significant but that you didn’t mention before because you thought it was a bit...
SC: No, no...until that moment it was an extremely enjoyable holiday, I think that we had already been at other Mark Warner resorts and they were more than a complex and because of that all the people in the area were Mark Warner tourists, here it was different because we could meet the same person two or three times a day, others could spend three or four days without seeing them because some were staying at this side and others on the other side and so, you know...we were not...it was not a large holiday centre but this was reasonably normal.
DCF: OK. Do you agree with me putting these questions now'
SC: Yes, that’s fine, are they the questions from the police'
DCF: Yes, from the way they are written, I think they are all from the Portuguese police.
SC: OK.
DCF: Because sometimes translations are a bit different.
SC: OK.
DCF: However, I think there are no questions from Gerry and Kate that would be necessary to ask you, as I have stated previously, there are other interrogations where that was necessary.
SC: Oh.
DCF: Fine, on what day between the 28th April and 3rd May did you meet Gerry McCann and Kate Healy, I think this has already been mentioned in the statement that we have just gone through.
SC: Yes, yes.
DCF: However I am going to read this and you do not have to reply again. How frequently would you meet up between the 28th April and 3rd May and once again we have just been through this.
SC: From there onwards.
DCF: Oh yes, not from there, it was even before Madeleine disappeared. Did you see them with Madeleine and the other two children'
.
SC: Humm...I don’t remember what I said in my statement, I am not sure about this because when I think about the past, and I know that he was playing tennis and I imagine something different, that’s why...humm I can’t specify hours and dates.
DCF: Ok. If you can remember the occasion upon which you saw them, how was the children’s behaviour'.
SC: Humm. I can’t reply because I was not concentrating on this type of thing, that’s why...hmmm, I cannot even reply to this.
DCF: No, but I was thinking from the point of view of common sense, after the disappearance of Madeleine, any doubt that you could have had.
SC: Oh, after the disappearance'
DCF: No, what I was thinking here was that after her disappearance, you would probably have reflected upon whether you saw anything.
SC: Hummm... I remember talking to Gerry, because I had to go and fetch I*** and they were playing in the small garden and he was (inaudible), I***** and I thought it was Maddie, I am not absolutely sure but, he seemed to me to be a decent type, a good father, affectionate with his children, very easy to talk to, very good with the children, with a comfortable manner even when talking to I**** about little things, completely dedicated to the children.
DCF: OK, I’m certain that if there were anything strange in his behaviour, you would certainly remember that.
SC: Yes, certainly.
DCF: Did you see either of them in a car'
SC: See either of whom'
DCF: I think this refers to the McCann family, did you ever see them in a car'
SC: Humm, during that week'
DCF: Mmm, mmm.
SC: I think not.
DCF: Did you see Kate or Gerry on the Thursday 3rd May, obviously this was the day when Madeleine disappeared already mentioned in your statement.
SC: Yes, in the restaurant, yes.
DCF: Do you remember if you saw them before the evening'
SC: Humm... I think that we played tennis during the afternoon on Thursday.
DCF: Yes.
SC: I’m not certain, I remember that it was on Thursday that there were four individuals with whom we used to share the tennis courts, and I think that I mentioned this in my statement, I would say that it was on Thursday that we played tennis and I think that this was what we talked about in the Tapas bar.
DCF: OK, do you have any idea of what time you played tennis with Gerry'
SC: Humm... from two to four or from two until any time in the afternoon, I remember it coincided with leaving the kids in the crèche and picking them up.
DCF: OK, and it asks here what his behaviour was like on Thursday, 3rd May'
SC: His behaviour during the day or'
DCF: On all the occasions that you saw him.
SC: Always very good.
DCF: When did you realise that Madeleine had disappeared, you have already said that it was on the following day.
SC: On Friday morning.
DCF: And you took part in the searches as you have already described. Did you see Kate or Gerald after Madeleine’s disappearance'
SC: Yes.
DCF: When'
SC: Hummm, the first time was when I introduced Robert Murat to Gerry, I think that he was alone at that moment...humm, or Kate was there, I’m not sure, but afterwards I saw him on Saturday before returning home, but thinking of the time on Friday morning when I introduced Murat, I think that I did not see him again until Saturday.
DCF: OK and the next question is what was their reaction and I think this means their reaction to Madeleine not being there'
.
SC: Destroyed, like any father or mother would be.
DCF: At what time did you arrive at the Tapas restaurant on 3rd May (inaudible)'
SC: At seven, I think at seven, yes.
DCF: Yes and you say that Kate and Gerald arrived at about half past eight, what was the theme of the conversation'
SC: I think it was just holiday chat, I think that we talked about our tennis and the good and bad aspects.
DCF: And who else was at the restaurant, well.... you have already referred to this in your statement.
SC: Yes.
DCF: Did you see Kate or Gerry leave the table before you'
SC: (Inaudible).
DCF: I think that this means the coming and going of people during the evening.
SC: Yes, I remember that people would absent themselves intermittently at different times, but I did not know why.
DCF: no.
SC: But as we discovered later, it was to check on the children.
DCF: And I imagine that your attention was directed towards your family and (inaudible).
SC: Yes, because we obviously had our two with us and we were on this side of the table, the single man with three small children was here and I****was playing with them, so we were more or less a group if you would like to call it that, of which they were a part, I think that all the ten members were there and some of us would speak to others here and on the other side of the table.
DCF: At what time did you leave the Tapas bar'
SC: I think it was at about half past nine.
DCF: I think that is what you said.
SC: Yes.
DCF: And you were accompanied, you replied that you were with your children and your wife. Where did you go afterwards, it says here...before going back to your apartment, can you describe the route you took'
SC: Directly to the apartment.
DCF: Did you see anyone outside the Tapas Bar or outside the apartments'
SC: If I saw anyone outside the Tapas bar or, hummm.. on the way home presumably'
DCF: Yes, is there anyone you remember that night, did you see anyone in the area'
SC: No.
DCF: At what time did you go to bed'
SC: Almost immediately, we put the children to bed because it was already quite late for them, humm... about half past ten, yes, about half past ten (inaudible).
DCF: And that’s it, those were the questions.
SC: OK.
DCF: So I would say there were no surprises. Is there anything else that you think we should talk about'
SC: Hummm, no I think that’s all, I spoke about Murat, hummm, about the meeting, no there is nothing more to add.
DCF: OK. Lets check with Eleanor to see if we have missed anything.
DCF leaves the interrogation room.
DCF enters the interrogation room.
DCF: No and I cannot think of anything else so we can close the interrogation.
SC: Fine.
DCF: It is 11.10, although my watch does not have numbers, so this is an approximate time.
SC: OK. And the interrogation ends here, I’m sure that Eleanor will unplug the recorder in the next room.
SC: Fine, ok.
DCF: Now we just need to write...the CD stopped and began again showing the time as 10.38.10.
Signature____________
