30 Dec 2010


Vincent Tabak

Consultant at Buro Happold
Bath, United Kingdom

  • Technische Universiteit Eindhoven
70 connections
Architecture & Planning

Vincent Tabak’s Summary

Vincent Tabak’s Specialties:

- People flow analysis
- Software engineering.
- Product and process modelling.
- Data collection & analysis.

Vincent Tabak’s Experience

  • People flow consultant

    Buro Happold

    (Educational Institution; Research industry)
    September 2007 — Present (3 years 5 months)
  • PhD

    Faculty of Architecture, TU Eindhoven

    (Educational Institution; Architecture & Planning industry)
    2003 — January 2009 (6 years )
    PhD researcher in “User Simulation of Space Utilisation”.
    Design & Decisions Support Systems, Faculty of Architecture, Building, and Planning, Eindhoven University of Technology.

    The aim of this research project is to develop an overall model for the simulation of human movement and utilization of space capacity in office buildings. In this model two aspects are essential: the interaction between the building occupants while performing their activities and the way to model these activities in space.
    Promoters: prof.dr.ir. Bauke de Vries and prof. dr. Harry Timmermans
    Expected completion: June 2007

    Research expertise:
    - Software engineering.
    - Product and process modelling.
    - Data collection & analysis.

    Educational activities:
    - Lecturing Free Form Design, M.Sc. course.
    - Coaching graduate M.Sc. students.
  • Part-time research/teaching assistant

    Eindhoven University of Technology

    (Educational Institution; 1001-5000 employees; Research industry)
    1999 — 2003 (4 years )
    Activities (among others):
    - Programming active server pages (ASP) for intranet-site Design Systems.
    - Creating virtual reality model of new building of the faculty of Architecture for among others visualizing the lay-out of employee workplaces.
    - Mentoring students related to several bachelor courses.
  • Internship


    (Public Company; Construction industry)
    December 2000 — March 2001 (4 months)
    Internship for assistance in designing an internal website to promote 4D CAD.
    Section Technology and Consultancy, former construction company HBG

Vincent Tabak’s Education

  • Technische Universiteit Eindhoven

    Msc , Architecture, Building, and Planning , 1996 — 2003
    Graduation project was titled: Interactive urban design using integrated planning requirements control.
    Urban planning and urban design are separated disciplines. To improve the interaction between these two I have developed an Interactive Urban Design tool at the Design Systems group in conjunction with the municipality of Tilburg.

Additional Information

Vincent Tabak’s Websites:

Vincent Tabak’s Interests:

Hiking and travelling (South & North America and Asia), photography and sailing.

A CSI Officer removes yet another bag of evidence from the flat of Jeffries, it is difficult to imagine there could be much left of that flat or its contents.    An appeal this morning for Jo's sock seemed to produce an immediate result as a man walked up and handed one to officers.  Let us hope it does yield further vital clues that may lead to the perpetrator(s) being charged with this terrible crime.  Meanwhile, Mr Jeffries apparently seeks the assistance of a "top London barrister" to claim massive damages for "wrongful arrest".  Like McCann v Amaral, I predict that is one he is destined to lose.    I applaud the police for their painstaking and determined work to bring those responsible to justice and hope the media bear in mind, they are there to assist the police, not attack them! 
Updated 5 Janaury 2011.   Today crime scene investigators were again examining Miss Yeates's flat in the Clifton area of Bristol, using a chemical system to find evidence such as fingerprints.
The machine allows forensic processes that would normally be carried out in the lab to be done at the scene.
There was a sign outside the building saying 'Do not enter, dangerous chemicals'.
Officers wearing white suits came out wearing masks while a number of uniformed officers entered Mr Jefferies' flat on the opposite side of the building.
Police earlier hinted that they believe Miss Yeates's killer may have had an accomplice.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343805/Joanna-Yeates-murder-Desperate-police-turn-Facebook-hunt-killer.html#ixzz1A7ku8QaW

Detailed search: Police forensic officers in breathing apparatus yesterday examined Jo's home using specialist chemical equipment, left, while more items were removed for investigation

Joanna Yeates's landlord had been watched before arrest

Police were keeping close eye on Chris Jefferies before reports surfaced that he saw Yeates on night she vanished

Chris Jefferies
Chris Jefferies, 65, is a retired public school teacher who helped run a local Neighbourhood Watch scheme. Photograph: Tim Ireland/PA
Detectives had been watching Joanna Yeates's landlord for several days before arresting him on suspicion of her murder, it emerged tonight.
Police arrested Chris Jefferies, 65, who lives in the building where Yeates had a flat, after reports that he had seen the Bristol landscape architect on the night she vanished were carried in the media.
But detectives had been keeping a close eye on retired public school teacher Jefferies even before his claims surfaced in public, sources with knowledge of the investigation said.
As police began to question Jefferies a picture of an eccentric but respected member of the community emerged.
Jefferies taught English at the nearby fee-paying Clifton College. He was an active member of the local Liberal Democrats and knew the leader of Bristol city council, Barbara Janke.
He was familiar to police as a leading light of the Neighbourhood Watch scheme and for a while was chairman of a society promoting the continued use of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.
White-haired Jefferies, who is unmarried, hit the headlines yesterday when neighbours claimed he had told police he saw 25-year-old Yeates leaving her flat on the night she vanished with two other people. When approached by journalists outside his flat, Jefferies appeared to row back from the claims, saying what he had said to police was vaguer than how it had been reported.
"I definitely cannot say that I saw Joanna Yeates that evening. No," he said.
He added: "Everything I am aware of I have told the police and I don't really want to talk about it."
Shortly after 7am today an unmarked police car pulled up outside Jefferies's flat in the affluent Clifton area of Bristol and he was arrested.
A spokesman for Avon and Somerset police said: "Just after 7am this morning, police attended an address in Canynge Road and arrested a 65-year-old man on suspicion of murder. He has been taken into custody at a police station and detained for questioning. …
"Detectives investigating Joanna's murder are continuing to carry out forensic examinations and are also continuing to appeal for anyone with any information that can help the inquiry to call the Operation Braid incident room."
Police took away two cars – a silver Chrysler Neon parked on the street and a grey Volvo S40 that was on Jefferies's drive. Forensic searches of his flat were being carried out and bags of items were carried out. Uniformed officers carried out house-to-house inquiries in the neighbourhood.
Yeates's family said they were pleased that there appeared to be progress. Her father, David, an IT worker from Ampfield in Hampshire, said: "At this time our focus is still with Jo. We are pleased the police have made an arrest as they have been working very hard to make progress in this case. During the investigation police have not told us everything they have discovered but we understand there are certain things they cannot reveal."
Jefferies, who in his younger days sported blue hair, taught English at the fee-paying Clifton College and former pupils said he was particularly fond of the Pre-Raphaelites. One student called him a "stickler for discipline and very traditional". The college headteacher, Mark Moore, said there were no disciplinary issues recorded against Jefferies. Other pupils have said he was an inspiring, if unconventional, teacher.
In an article in a college magazine, former student Stuart Delves called Jefferies and his colleagues in the English department "paramours of literature". Jefferies, Delves wrote, "pronounced interesting places in interesting ways and illuminated Christina Rossetti for us."
Jefferies retired nine years ago and threw himself into other interests. He became a Lib Dem activist, vice-chairman of his local Neighbourhood Watch, and an active member of Clifton and Hotwells Improvement Society, which campaigns to conserve buildings of historic interest.
Neighbour Ray Lowman, who knew Jefferies through Neighbourhood Watch, said: "He is a pillar of society – one of the well-known familiar locals. A very intelligent man, very sharp."
Yeates was last seen on Friday 17 December at 8.40pm when she bought a pizza from a supermarket close to her home. She was reported missing two days later and her body was found on a roadside verge three miles away on Christmas morning. She had been strangled.
Police have until tomorrow morning to question Jefferies before having to ask a superintendent to extend the time for another 12 hours. After that, they will have to go to a magistrate to ask for a further extension. He could be held for up to 108 hours before being charged or released


Wizard said...

Hi Viv,

Hmm…..they haven’t charged Jefferies yet - I wonder if they will. It seems to me, too easy to nab the eccentric, the oddball. We don't know all the information the police have so perhaps they are right to focus on him. Time will tell.

Jefferies alleged sighting of Joanna Yeates on the night of the 17th is interesting. Why did he mention this - it’s a bit of a conundrum - similar to Jane Tanner’s sighting of eggman. I suppose it could be reasoned he was covering for his own activities and planting a red herring, or perhaps he wanted his own five minutes of fame, which has backfired, or perhaps he did see what he alleges.

At 6.00pm this evening the police will have to ask a magistrate for a further extension to keep him under arrest or of course they could charge him.

What do you think of Jefferies - have they got the right man Viv?

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

It seems to be the police use a pretty simple and basic investigative technique.

Where you have someone wishing to state they saw the deceased alive and they are the last person to claim they saw that person alive that is likely to be the killer.

We can see from reports in the McCann case, that given Gerry wished to insist he saw Maddie peacefully sleeping in her bed at 9.05 pm, that made him a prime suspect in her homicide.

Why do killers draw attention to themselves in this way? An absolute need to try and control the investigation and insist that contrary to what they know, the victim is dead, they want to say, no look I can tell you she was alive and well.

I think that in this case, just like Maddie, given there was no stranger entering the flat, the killer had to be very close to home.

We now know it was most definitely not the boyfriend as Jeffries actually helped him jump start his car to send him off to Sheffield.

It seems heartbreaking that Jo only took on the tenancy of this flat in October and by December she is dead. And highly odd that he would not allow his tenants to put up nets and blinds to the windows and just walked into their flats, which is hardly how a decent landlord should behave. It does seem that he needed to know what they were up to.

As to is it him, I can think of no prior occasion when the police have allowed so much into the public domain in a modern investigation and actually turned out to be wrong. He certainly fits the bill of being very near to the victim and behaving just as Gerry did, I recall Gerry wanted to stress in his statement how he saw "beautiful" Maddie lying on top of her bed because it was warm. It was actually a cold night, she had not been in that bed, at best, placed on top of it, ready for the off.

I even wonder if the Tanner sighting is true and that was an accomplice of Gerry removing Madeleine, he did not intend for this to be witnessed by Tanner and desperately engaged Wilkins in conversation to stop him from looking up the road. But still think it likely that Maddie had already gone before they went out.

viv said...

Going off on a bit of a tangent, how come a fit 25 year old could not fight off this slim old man?

Was it the alcohol she had consumed or did he drug her pizza!

viv said...

It seems the Attorney General feels our press are overstepping the mark in terms of their reporting, we should all heed the warning contained here!

Coverage of Yeates murder 'concerns' attorney general

The attorney general is considering issuing a notice to remind the media that coverage of the arrest in the Jo Yeates murder inquiry must be fair.

Miss Yeates' landlord Chris Jefferies was arrested on Thursday, five days after her body was found in snow three miles from their Bristol flats.

The Contempt of Court Act restricts publication of information that could seriously prejudice a future trial.

Attorney General Dominic Grieve said if necessary he would take action.

In an interview for BBC Radio 4's World At One on Friday, Mr Grieve said: "We are considering what I've seen in newspapers today, and we will try to take such action as is right to ensure that the course of justice is not in any way impeded."

Former public school teacher Mr Jefferies, 65, was arrested on suspicion of murder in the flat above the one Miss Yeates had rented in Canynge Road, Bristol.

On Friday morning, police were granted a further 12 hours to question him.

Miss Yeates, 25, was found dead on Christmas Day, eight days after she was last seen on CCTV visiting an off-licence and two local supermarkets.

Post-mortem tests revealed she had been strangled.

Mr Grieve - the government's most senior legal officer - said it was not only newspapers which had to be careful about the sort of material published.

"Newspapers are under a legal obligation, indeed all media is under a legal obligation, in fact everybody who puts something on the internet is under a legal obligation, to observe the principles of the Contempt of Court Act," he said.

"If they don't, they lay themselves open to proceedings for contempt."

He said the contempt laws protected an individual going through the investigative and legal process to ensure a fair trial could take place.

Mr Grieve said that all national newspapers had legal teams advising them and were "pretty familiar" with contempt laws.

"I would simply ask them to reflect carefully on how they can provide proper coverage on a matter of public importance whilst at the same time, mindful of how our legal system works, they can also ensure that a trial process, if one were ever to happen, will not be prejudiced by material being published which may be irrelevant to any case that comes before the court."

viv said...

I take it he is referring to the publication of a lot of commentary from former students as to his nature and character which does have the effect of blackening his character but is clearly not of any direct relevance to the current investigation.
It could be said that by doing that, the media are prejudicing the public against him by what they already know and this would taint the minds of jury members.

viv said...

According to the Daily Mail, Mr Stanley has spent hours at his flat answering police questions, voluntarily taken his BMW in for examination and also showed them a jeep and tarpaulin at the property. This is the same Mr Stanley who assisted Jeffries to jump start Mr Reardon's car.

In the lurid headline stakes I think the Daily Mail are out in front of the rest of the pack with their Nutty Professor lines etc. Do they reckon this is another big money spinner for them, to replace the McScams? I always thought the McScams filled the void in the press caused by the death of Diana, they feed on a story that will just run and run, now the McScams have lost the limelight to another such case. Let us hope some pretty lurid reporting does not actually prejudice any trial of men who may be responsible for the death of JO.

viv said...

Di, Wiz and all bloggers old and new, who still hope to see justice for little Maddie McCann, have a Fantastic and Prosperous New Year!

Love Viv xxx

Di said...

Thanks Viv and a very Happy New Year to you and Wizard.x

Wizard said...

Happy New Year Viv and Di.

I see that the Chris Jefferies has been released on bail. I would just say that if he were guilty, which I doubt, he would be the first murderer that I can remember seeing that looked odd. Most appear very ordinary and not people you would give a second glance at.

Then there’s a first time for every thing and perhaps this is it.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz and Di

Di, I hope you have been off to Wales or someone nice to have a good break.

Wiz, the choice to release him on police bail, rather than just release him is interesting. That generally happens when the police feel they have the right person but lack sufficient evidence to charge.

I agree there is a perception that he just looks and seems the part and could be just be unfairly picked upon by the police, desperate for a result.

But what we do know from the McCann case is that forensic test results can take a long time, far longer than the police would have been able to hold him to wait for the results back.

What we also know from the McCann case is that intelligent suspects, with the benefit of legal advice, simply refuse to answer police questions when they are in serious bother. Of course, that refusal, in itself, only serves to convince the police they have the right person because innocent people do not refuse to answer police questions. In fact it is only in very serious crimes that suspects ever do so. The whole purpose of interviewing someone under caution is "to gain evidence". But when the police are up against someone like him or the McCanns they are more than smart enough to make sure the police do not gain that evidence. Given they kept him for three days they were obviously trying very hard and both a senior police officer and then a district judge (I think) thought there were reasonable grounds to order his continued detention for questioning.

And so I think the police may be in a McCann type situation, they cannot prove their case without forensic evidence because the suspect is not admitting anything at all.

But even if it is him, it still makes me wonder how he alone managed to kill her and dispose of the body, given his size.

I think all we can do is to wait and see!

viv said...

Wiz, I would be very interested to know who you think may have done this.

Do you think it could have been the work of a "stranger", rather than someone known to Jo who had easy access to her/the flat?

Wizard said...

It’s difficult to hazard a guess who had a hand in this murder - the police either do not have a great deal to go on - or they are holding back. I’m still baffled by the missing pizza and packaging. Unless I missed it I don’t think a time of death was given – so did she go missing on the 17th or was it later.

I have not removed the boyfriend from the frame yet. Despite allegedly being in Sheffield at the time, we don’t know exactly when she went missing - plus he could easily have doubled back.

Jefferies is an oddball, if it was him what could have been the motive, it wasn’t sexual because surely he is gay. With regard to him being out on bail, can you be out on bail if you haven’t been charged? I think the police are still interested in him but they would look complete idiots if they said anything less after holding him for such a long time.

In real life few cases are truly solved I hope this is not another one of them.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

I think your second suggestion, the police are likely to be holding back is much more realistic. In fact I am a little surprised just how much has been allowed into the public domain on this case ahead of anyone even being charged. We have in fact got more than we generally get, even after charges.

I wonder if there is some tactical reason for doing this, to put pressure on and then they can monitor the response.

It can sometimes be the case that a murder does not just involve one person, I do think the police are correct to be looking at all of those people close to her because from what little we do know it seems hard to imagine how this could be the work of a stranger to her.

I think if they had found the missing pizza package they would not be telling us because it is so crucial to this case.

The police can bail suspects ahead of any charge, this is used where they feel they have insufficient evidence to charge the suspect at that stage but following further investigations/forensic tests etc they may well do. For this reason the suspect is always given a date when they must return to the police station and it is a criminal offence to fail to return and surrender to police bail. This is distinct from bail the police may give to a person who has been charged in a less serious case to attend court. In the case of murder, once charged, the police would put the accused before the court for the issue of bail to be decided by the court.

When bailing someone the police can also require the suspect live at a specific address. Jeffries has not returned to his home address, but it may be due to fears for his safety were he to do so.

I do not think that if Jeffries is gay that would mean he would not have the propensity to kill women, he could be a misogynist. I find it interesting that it was reported the police were liaising with other areas where similar unsolved disappearances of women had occurred from their home address.

I do find it spooky to say the least that Jeffries and the neighbour were the guardians and custodians of the local Neighbourhood ~Watch - that could give them the cover for being rather more than nosy neighbours!

viv said...

Stephen Griffiths: the self-styled demon who drew inspiration from serial killers
The 'crossbow cannibal' was a narcissist who longed for his moment of fame, says criminologist


Helen Carter
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 21 December 2010 11.47 GMT
Article history

Stephen Griffiths in a photograph from his MySpace page. Photograph: Reuters
With his pet lizards walked on a lead, long leather coat, slicked-back hair and sunglasses that he wore regardless of the weather, Stephen Griffiths was regarded as a harmless oddball by his neighbours.

The 40-year-old, who lived alone in a converted stone mill in the heart of Bradford's red light district and was nicknamed the Lizard Man or Penfold, was considered friendly but eccentric by those who shared the block of flats.

However, on a Monday morning in May this year the caretaker at Holmfield Court was checking CCTV footage from the weekend and saw the missing street worker Suzanne Blamires, 36, terrified, running from Griffiths's flat before being knocked unconscious.

Griffiths disappeared from view, returning moments later carrying a crossbow. He lined up the weapon and shot the unconscious woman with a bolt through her head before dragging her lifeless body down a corridor.

The caretaker phoned 999 – but not before calling the newsdesk of the Sun newspaper and selling the story. Griffiths was arrested a few hours later, after he had deposited Blamires's body in the nearby river Aire. From that moment he has displayed no emotion.

In recent months, he has refused to speak to his legal team and has made four suicide attempts while on remand, apparently eager to be moved to the secure Rampton psychiatric hospital in Nottinghamshire from the harsh regime of Wakefield prison, where the Soham killer, Ian Huntley, was once on remand. He began refusing food at the end of November.

Griffiths, who has a psychology degree, had spent the last six years on a part-time PhD course at Bradford University, comparing 19th-century and modern murder techniques. A website he set up, called The Skeleton and The Jaguar, was full of pictures of crossbows. The site also contained photographs of 50 serial killers.

He enjoyed the power he had over prostitutes, but what turned Griffiths into the killer of Blamires, Shelley Armitage, 31, who vanished a month earlier, and Susan Rushworth, 43, who had not been seen for almost a year?

(Rest of story describing his good education and upbringing in The Guardian)

viv said...

I have to say what disgusting behaviour by the caretaker who found this repulsive video, to sell it to The Sun, prior to even ringing the police.

I think there are a few parallels in that story Wiz!

I can even imagine Gerry McScam getting very cross when someone knocks him off the top spot in the Media. Remember how lovingly he spoke when lecturing a group of lawyers about his beloved Sun newspaper. I mean most educated people see it for the disgusting prurient rag that it is! But Gerry is all front and self publicity, even hires one to make sure he gets his message across!

viv said...

800 yards from Jo's flat, that is one heck of a coincidence...we know that Landlord was in the area at that time. Not that I am pointing the finger of course!

Jo Yeates murder bears similarities to unsolved strangling nearby from 1974

The Jo Yeates murder bears haunting similarities to the unsolved killing of a student teacher nearby in 1974.
Like Jo, Glenis Carruthers, 20, was strangled. Her body was found on Clifton Downs, less than 800 yards from Jo’s flat, after she left a party.
Last night police refused to rule out a link between the two killings. But a spokeswoman for the Avon and Somerset force said: “An investigation into the death of Jo Yeates is continuing, a man remains in custody and we have no further comment to make about possible links to any other murder.”
Advertisement - article continues below »

Glenis’s killer, who may have been glimpsed fleeing by the dog-walker who found the body, was never caught despite a cold case review involving the latest DNA techniques this year.
A Clifton shopkeeper said last night: “Jo’s murder has brought back a lot of bad memories for people who have lived here a long time. You just wonder if there could be a connection.”
Glenis, from Amersham, Bucks, was driven to Bristol by a female pal to celebrate her 21st birthday on Friday January 18, 1974. The Bedford College of Physical Education student stepped outside to take a stroll from the party in Worcester Crescent, Clifton, at 10pm and was never seen alive again.
Brother Gordon Carruthers said Jo’s murder had “brought back the awful memories”. He added “One sadly can say that every time a young woman dies in such circumstances.”

viv said...

A check on Google maps reveals that Worcester Crescent where the first strangulation victim disappeared from in 1974 is an offshoot of College Road where the College that Mr Jeffries worked, up until taking early retirement in 1990s is situate. And then literally just a couple of streets away is Canynge Road.

I think people should stop trying to suggest the police are stupid!

Wizard said...

The police now believe two men were involved – could this be the two people Jeffries believed he saw. A light-coloured 4 x 4 vehicle is being looked for.

The Police as yet do no know: where Jo was killed, when she was killed and how long she was left in the open.

The missing pizza - the press are reporting, a rubbish collection was made in that area before the police started looking for the pizza box.

Wizard said...


Tuesday January 4,2011
By Tom Morgan
Have your say(13)
KATE and Gerry McCann have delayed publication of their book about their daughter Madeleine’s disappearance to avoid clashing with the royal wedding.
The couple’s account of how Madeleine vanished on a family holiday to Portugal in 2007 was due to appear in shops on April 28, just before the fourth anniversary of her disappearance.
But publishers Transworld postponed the release date by a fortnight after it was announced that Prince William would marry Kate Middleton in Westminster Abbey in London on April 29.
The book, being written by the McCanns themselves and entitled Madeleine, will now be published on May 12, her eighth birthday.
All proceeds from sales of the book will go to the McCanns’ official fund to search for Madeleine, which had been in danger of running out in 2011. Family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “The publication date for Madeleine has now been moved on to May 12 2011 in the light of the royal wedding and the subsequent media coverage that will generate.
“Kate and Gerry are very happy with the new date, as are the publishers, and it will still be very much tied into the fourth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance.”
Madeleine was nearly four when she vanished from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on the Algarve on May 3 2007 as her parents dined with friends nearby. A massive police investigation followed, and huge publicity worldwide.
The official Portuguese inquiry into Madeleine’s disappearance was formally dropped in July 2008, although private detectives employed by the McCanns have continued the search.

Read more: http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/220984/Madeleine-McCann-book-delayed-for-royal-weddingMadeleine-McCann-book-delayed-for-royal-wedding#ixzz1A58TvGt0

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

I had already noted above that this could be a case where more than one offender is involved, but for me, it remains the case one of those offenders is very likely to be Mr Jeffries.

The geography and similarity of these two killings, right near him and his college suggest to me they are linked. I believe he feels he is highly intelligent, no doubt he is, and he likes to play games with the police because it adds to his sense of superiority. For me, he does seem to have a decidedly odd and eccentric personality. I also believe that once the police are prepared to publically name a suspect, as in this case and clearly imply they are not aware of any further danger to the public, the know exactly who it is, as in McCann. I believe the investigation is complex because they need to build a forensic case against him as he will not otherwise co-operate and because he may be involved with another.

It does help to look at a map of the area, to really appreciate why I think these cases are linked and I believe that is what the police believe. The first killer was never caught, that clearly implies a clever and devious killer. You will see that him, his college the areas where they were taken from and the areas they were dumped are all very close together and this man would clearly have very good local knowledge of the geography.

It may be that others who the police are naming as "witnesses" at this stage are also involved, but for tactical and operational reasons they cannot disclose that, they want them to panic. But note the police refers to catching her killers in the plural, maybe just a slip of the tongue but these press releases are clearly very carefully worded and drafted with precision.

The police are also pointing out there will be huge delay due to the forensic testing needed, I also like their use of the term leaving no stone unturned. I do think this case is going to be very difficult to prosecute as in McCann due to the nature and intellect of the defendant. In short they know that without a positive forensic case, this nut is not going to crack.

viv said...

Wiz, I do not think I can find the words to express my fury at the McCanns announcement about their book and how they do not wish it to clash with the royal wedding.

Just who the hell do they think they are!

It seems to be the arrogance and narcissism of this couple just knows no bounds. As ever, measures that are supposedly meant to help find Madeleine have no sense of urgency whatsoever, and anniveraries of them getting rid of her are like some bloody celebratory event where they can make another load of cash. Repulsive creeps!

viv said...

What an accurate rendition of the likely content, spelling and format of Kate's tome, on, as the press so tellingly point out "their version of how Madeleine disappeared". In short, leaving a few stones unturned.We had reports from Philomena about how Kate is quite capable of f..ing and blinding in complete rage and we know from the pictures of Gez he is good at that, so what will their reaction be to this most amusing post in the Daily Express? It pays to look on the light side when considering this most Royal of couples.

As for buying their book, please do not pay for a further Maddie Company car for Gerry or Gerry's inflated mortgage installments, just read the inevitable serialisation and deprive them of the cash, if you really are curious as to what the gruesome twosome may now have to say...and there was me thinking over the last four years, now I have just about heard it all from these two creeps..

Anonymous said... 12
This was published this morning in the Daily Express (UK)

**** **** BOOK
04.01.11, 9:15am

Chapter one
Left our children alone and in danger in a strange unlocked apartment in a foreign country
Chapter Two
Madilien goes missing
Chapter three
It’s not our fault
Chapter four
Start a fund to raise lots of lovely money
Chapter Five
Sue all who say that it is our fault and make even more lovely money
Chapter Six
Write a book about good parenting to make even more lovely money

• Posted by: LetterfromIberia • Report Comment

Read more: http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/220984Madeleine-McCann-book-delayed-for-royal-wedding#ixzz1A3ZKVh8F

Letter from Iberia

Di said...

Hi Viv & Wizard

We have been at home thoughout the holidays due to illness etc., but we had a good Christmas Day with family.

The Joana Yeates case is an odd one. No evidence of time of death or whether she died in the apt or where she was found, or how long she had been there.

The pizza is also interesting, if Jo had eaten it the contents would have been noted in her stomach during the autopsy, but obviously that would not be divulged.

I agree Jeffries is maybe coming accross as an oddball, a killer, we will have to wait and see.

Di said...

Now please don't get me started on the McCann's delayed book launch!

It is obvious they don't want to be knocked off the front pages. They truly are sinking to unbelievable depths.

I am so glad DX printed all the comments.

viv said...

Hiya Di

I am sorry you have all been unwell, if it is any consolation, so have Luke and with the flu that just will not quite go away. To make matters worse the old boiler we bought with this house has left this world and us coping with electric heaters, no baths, no showers, so even steaming the cough is not an option. How long must be wait in spite being prepared to pay through the nose for a new one, Monday next week! That will be 10 days with no boiler. As though that were not enough some man in his rather fast Honda decided I was not going into the island in ice and show quickly enough and so decided to give me a shunt, but do have a very nice hire car, oddly enough a Renault! Start physio on Friday, did my back need another dose of whiplash, well no, not really! This is the fourth time now that someone has decided to rear end me.

viv said...

Di, it probably is a bit previous to be coming up with suspects ourselves at this stage of the case. Clearly we are only being told what the police want us to know, but I do think it is interesting they want everyone to know Jeffries is a suspect.

I am sure they do know whether Jo had actually eaten that pizza and even probably how much of it. It still seems a pretty large meal for her to buy to just consume on her own? But there again I am not a huge pizza fan, so could not imagine putting a whole one away. It could almost be suspected that in purchasing that and two bottles of cider, albeit small ones, she intended to share her meal with someone, but that kind of puts the bf back in the frame which I am loath to comment upon in light of the police stand on this at present. They started to put Karen Matthews in the frame...they started to put Kate and Gerry in the frame, I do trust their judgment. The forensic work on the contents of Jeffries flat will be costing countless thousands.

According to the press they have now brought in a forensic psychologist to advise them on this "difficult case" and a further comparison with Gerry McCann can also be made here, in fact I wonder if Jeffries has contacted the Royal one for advice! How helpful are these erm "close friends" in the final analysis, it always seems to be the utterly weird, the utterly guilty who need them to plant in the press on their behalf! And as for fury at the police and a need for vengeance and money, well erm textbook!

The 65-year-old’s whereabouts are not known, but he is believed to be staying locally.

A close friend said the retired English teacher was hiring a leading London barrister and wanted huge damages from the police for wrongful arrest.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1344165/Joanna-Yeates-murder-Did-Jo-tip-killer-shed-home-alone.html#ixzz1A7Q1a5Wk

viv said...

Maybe the police are telling everyone about Jeffries because they want everyone to be telling them all about him.

IMO, the police are generally very cagy with releasing any information at all to the public in an ongoing inquiry, unless of course that would assist the inquiry.

Wizard said...

Hi Viv and Di,

Jo left her coat, boots, keys and money in the flat. So its likely that is where she died. Someone obviously cleaned up because whether she knew her killer or not she wasn’t going to stand there and let them kill her without a bit of a struggle. No sign of a struggle was found.

One of her socks in now being suggested as a possible murder weapon and it is missing - which must mean who ever strangled her did not use their bare hands.

I thought her body was dumped over a hedge but apparently, it was left at the side of the road. If there was more than one person involved, surely it could have been lifted over the fence to give them more time. One person would have had difficulty lifting a dead weight of 11 stone and this may explain why it was left at the side of the road as opposed to concealing it.

The criminal profiler being brought in is quite interesting. Who exactly are they looking at, Jefferies, the boyfriend or someone else?

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

That is very interesting, a sock was used.

To me that suggests someone lying in wait in her flat in a premeditated way. IMO, if it was the boyfriend, it is more likely to be a spur of the moment argument rather than any premeditated decision to kill. IN which case he would just overpower her and not stop to pick up something like that.

Shortly after her arrival home at 9 pm two screams are heard. Jeffries tells the media he saw two people leaving the flat with JO at the very same time, then he denies it. It does not really leave any doubt for me as to who is likely to be her killer and at what time she died. He knew the boyfriend had gone.

Who is it, who seeks to use the media to try and influence an investigation and then tells entirely conflicting stories to the police. I believe he was trying to place someone else at the scene at the precise moment he knows witnesses would have heard her scream. I think he did not intend she would have any opportunity to scream, but she was a young fit woman.

I think the intensive activity in her flat suggests the police do believe that is where she died and the intense activity in his flat suggests they think he is involved.

The police are also turning to the advice of a pyschologist and the NPIA for expert advice, again this is exactly the same as in the McCann case. They know who it is and they need to understand the nature and capacity of the person in order to build a successful case against him.

I think this type of killer would not be concerned about the body being found, it was left there quite deliberately to be found. He has an overwhelming sense of self importance and intellect, far greater in his opinion, than the police. This really does remind me of Gerry McCann, even the big barrister and bick bucks claim (or so he believes)

All just my opinion of course!

viv said...

Wiz, if the cider and pizza she bought were then removed from the flat, why would Jeffries do this?

He suggests to the media he saw Jo alive, leaving the flat with two others. I think he was trying to suggest she was off to eat them with her pals and therefore he could not have killed her in the flat.

Looking at it through his eyes as he cleaned up the scene (and he knew he had a key and all weekend), removing those two items would be a clever move. There was a party just over the road? Was he intent on suggesting that is where she went. Pizza and bottles of cider might be typical things you would arrive with. Mind you, surely she would have taken her house keys!

BUt there do remain some very clear question marks around the b/f, not least trying to explain no contact all over the weekend and the big delay in coming to the conclusion Jo was missing and ringing the police, that should have been obvious within the very first few moments!

viv said...

Oh scrub my remarks about the sock as a weapon I note it was just missing from her body as were her coat and shoes which were found in her flat.

Quite obviously, she was dead when she left that flat and perhaps the sock just came off as her body was being moved.

viv said...

I note that when the police held a press conference this morning to seek information on the missing sock from Joanna, the finding of which could obviously yield vital evidence, ITN found they were banned from that conference.

So what was the reason for this? Apparently a certain Mark Williams Thomas, a former detective constable who retired very early from the police was on their news programme last night, standing in the lane where the body was found, insisting police were not investigating properly and following proper procedures.

Avon and Somerset Police, not unsurprisingly, have described this reporting as naive and unhelpful.

Mark Williams Thomas is a rent a gob for news outlets who want to claim they are offering their viewers some "expert commentary" on an ongoing police investigation. He offered us that same "expert commentary" on the Maddie case, claiming the PJ were guilty of the "worst preserved crime scene I have ever seen". Just how helpful is it for this man to demonstrate his grudge against officers who still have their job and are doing their utmost to do it well?

Whenever we have this sort of tragic event, I think it is reasonable to assume that the police are doing their absolute best to follow procedures and do a good job to the very best of their ability. Why would they not do so, particularly when they are aware of the keen public interest in seeing a result?

When we have potential criminals who have committed the most horrendous crimes, why is it that certain people actually feel the need to attack those who are doing their very best to bring them to justice?

If this finishes the career or rent a gob Mark Williams Thomas I cannot say that I will miss him and I just wish that people would understand, the police do their best for victims, the Portuguese Police, the British Police, wherever. It is a difficult job and they do not need attacks from the public or someone who actually makes a living out of it. They need support, like please find that sock for us! It is as simple as that.

Di said...

Hi Viv & Wizard

So sorry you have been unwell too Viv and I cannot believe you got whacked from behind in your car again. I hope the physio works wonders.

If whoever killed Jo, did so in the apt WHY then take her in a car and leave her in full view, then do a clean up at said apt. Why not leave her where she was and do a good clean up.

Personally, I do not believe Jeffries would be able to get Jo out of the apt and into a car on his own. I am not saying he did not do it, I am saying he must have had help.

I still cannot understand why Jo's boyfriend had no contact with her over the whole weekend and vice versa, and also waited 4 hours to alert anyone to Jo's disappearance on his return. We have her coat boots and keys in the flat, not forgetting the cat going mental and he was not worried!

viv said...

Hiya Di,

Maybe I should restyle myself Unlucky Viv@-))) I must admit I do get a bit paranoid now when anyone is near the back end of my car.

Your question is a very difficult one to try and answer. I suppose it is easier to attempt to clean up after yourself having removed the body first.

It seems to be there are two ways of looking at why was the body just dumped at the side of the road. Did the killer think someone was coming, was he panicking about being seen, was he struggling to move it any further. Given the location is near to quarry works it could be said there may have been an intention to try and hide it a little better than that.

But looking at it another way, really sadistic killers who literally get a kick out of what they do, quite often just dump the body at the side of the road when they have had their "fun" with the victim. Maybe the timing of the discovery was even intended to cause relatives greater distress? It does seem to me this is the act of a particularly callous person who feels above the law and the prospect of getting caught.

Detectives must have a very good idea of when Jo met her death, I would say it was around 9 pm when others heard two screams. From mobile phone triangulation they would be able to pretty accurately place where the b/f was and I just feel they have done that and know he was not responsible for actually killing her and disposing of her. But was he responsible in some other way? It is a bit like what my sister said to me this afternoon on the phone, who also now thinks like me Gerry may have sold her to paedophiles, ...the McCanns just could not have gotten rid of Maddie as they did either dead or alive without help from someone else.

This mystery is clearly catching hold of the media and the public in exactly the same way as the Maddie case because it is such an incredible mystery. There are very clear pointers towards both Jeffries and the b/f, the latter's behaviour is decidedly odd - no one could deny that. But some conspiracy between the landlord and the boyfriend to get rid of Jo just seems to fantastic to even consider?

I notice the McCanns have not sought fit to offer their condolences, but Gerry probably feels this will have an adverse impact on his further attempts to extort money from his own dreadful crime.

This further extract from the press again reminds me of the McCann case, a quote from Jeffries lawyer, as in the McCann case he clearly entertains the idea, on the basis of the evidence he has heard that his client will be charged. I just cannot believe the police are spending countless thousands on ripping his flat apart and naming him as a suspect if there is any chance they could be wrong about that. As we know, the police knowing for a fact who it is, and being able to present a case in court to prove that beyond reasonable doubt can be two very different things.

Meanwhile lawyers acting for Mr Jefferies expressed concern over whether their client could ultimately receive a fair trial should he ever be charged.

Rhys Mardon, of London-based Stokoe Partnership, who acted on Mr Jefferies' behalf during interview with detectives, said: "His name has been blackened and his privacy invaded. This may ultimately prejudice his right to, and any prospect of, a fair trial."

Wizard said...

The police are saying there is no increased threat to women in the area. This must mean they think it was personal and certainly not a serial type or stranger murder.

The point made about cleaning up the flat and removing the body before doing so - is an interesting one. Why indeed would someone remove the body, what do they gain out of doing this? If Jo died in the flat, which is likely, it was personal - the flat/location meant something to the killer. Which rules out a stranger.

Removal of the body could have been to delay detection and attempt to suggest an abduction took place. Hence, the reason Jo’s keys, coat and boots were left behind to suggest she was snatched. If the body were left in the flat, the boy friend would have come back from Swindon and immediately phoned the police. He delayed phoning the police on arriving home on Sunday night, which was convenient if he was the killer.

I was wondering if the body could have lain in the flat until the b/f returned and then moved. Alternatively, if the landlord was involved he could have removed the body later on Friday night, than thought, or anytime on Saturday or early hours of Sunday morning. That is dependent of course on the snowfall on Saturday and Sunday night in Bristol.

Wizard said...

Joe had only recently qualified as an architect, back in November, she also had just moved into this flat with the boyfriend - again I think this was in November. It would be interesting to know if she lived with the b/f before that or they lived separately.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

I think Jeffries may be a serial type murder because the similar murder only 800 yards away in 1974 is one heck of a coincidence.

Also the police will know exactly where Jeffries is (bail hostel, police "safe" house?) and have no doubt made sure he could not strike again, if it is him. It would most certainly have been a condition of his bail that he resides at an address approved of by the police and where they can closely observe him.

I do think you are right in saying the location is personal to the killer, hence he moved the body. Either Jeffries or the boyfriend are astute enough to know they would be immediate suspects given they both had the key to the flat and there as no evidence of any breakin or struggle. In fact I think they removed the flat door just to check that hypothesis. Clearly in any serious investigation, it can be about trying to rule suspects out, just as much as trying to rule them in. Hence in the Maddie case, the McCanns version of stranger abduction was very thoroughly investigated by the Portuguese Police and rightly so. It is only in this way that it can then be said, well that only leaves her parents/their friends, i.e. as in this case, persons very close to the victim.

I think whoever killed Jo would have been anxious to get the body out of there as quickly as possible due to the forensic traces it may leave. It would be naive to imagine that anyone, let alone a killer, has not heard of those cadaver detecting dogs!

If it was the landlord and he was not involved with the b/f in this dastardly deed, he could have no way of knowing with any degree of certainty when b/f or even other relatives/friends of Jo's may arrive. Again, I think he would want to move it quickly. There seem to be a number of vehicles the police have been interested in, and of course, Jeffries flat. I tend to think the body was quickly removed from the flat and then stored somewhere else, prior to perhaps dumping it Christmas Eve to leave it to be found.

I notice the police are now scouring the sewers around the flats, looking for the sock. It may be considered a good way to get rid of one telling bit of evidence, to flush it down the toilet. Presumably the police are hoping this may have happened and as it is a very long sock may have got caught up on brickwork etc in the sewers. But again, it does demonstrate they feel this particular killer was extremely close to home!

I read that Jo and her b/f moved into the flat in October. It would be interesting to know if they had lived together elsewhere, given she was alive for such a short time after moving in with him!

viv said...

It is good to see at least some dishonest politicians being held accountable for their actions (but what about all the rest??), but I would have thought 3 years a more appropriate sentence given the level of this fraud, the extreme dishonesty involved and his severe breach of a position of trust the tax payers placed in him.

viv said...

guardian.co.uk, Friday 7 January
David Chaytor, the first former MP to be convicted over the expenses scandal, was today sentenced to 18 months in prison.

The former Labour MP for Bury North last month pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey to three charges of false accounting, days before he had been due to stand trial. He faced a maximum sentence of seven years.

Chaytor had admitted false accounting involving a total of £18,350. He had agreed to pay back the sum before today's hearing at Southwark crown court.

Mr Justice Saunders said a significant penalty for the 61-year-old was "the only way public faith in the system can be restored and maintained".

"The whole expenses scandal has shaken public confidence in the legislature, it has angered the public," he said.

"Chaytor only bears a small part of responsibility for that erosion of confidence and the public anger. But it is important because he has accepted his conduct was dishonest."

Saunders said the offences had "wider and more important consequences than is to be found in other breach of trust cases", adding: "That is the effect they have had, and will have, in the confidence the public has in politicians."

Chaytor gave no reaction as he was sentenced. Court sources told the Press Association that the former MP would be taken to Wandsworth prison, in south-west London, to spend his first night in custody.

During submissions today, James Sturman QC had pleaded for any prison sentence to be suspended and a community punishment imposed.

He said Chaytor, a former university lecturer, faced further public humiliation if ordered to pick up litter or similar work because he would be photographed.

"We submit that the sums he received, if he had gone about it transparently, honestly and frankly, he would have been entitled to every penny, if not more than he claimed," Sturman said.

"The fact that he would have been entitled to claim for a second property has been somewhat lost in the clamour and hysteria surrounding the case."

He added that Chaytor had pleaded guilty out of "deep and genuine remorse".

viv said...

But Peter Wright QC, for the prosecution, said the fact that Chaytor submitted false invoices proved that he knew he was breaking the rules.

"We say Mr Chaytor knew the rules, and we say why else would he produce false documents in support of his claims otherwise?" he told the court.

"It is maintained by the defence that his purpose in creating those documents was in fact to short-circuit the route by which expenses could be claimed. We, on behalf of the crown, do not accept that."

Chaytor had claimed £12,925 between 2005 and 2006 for renting a flat in Regency Street, Westminster, producing a tenancy agreement purporting to show that he was paying £1,175 a month in rent to the landlord, Sarah Elizabeth Rastrick.

But she was his daughter – although her name was disguised by using her middle name as a surname – and the flat was owned by Chaytor and his wife, who had already paid off the mortgage.

Chaytor also claimed £5,425 between 2007 and 2008 for renting a home in Castle Street, Bury, which was owned by his mother.

He produced a tenancy agreement falsely showing he was paying £775 a month. House of Commons rules do not allow MPs to claim for leasing a property from a family member.

A third charge related to two invoices of £995 each for IT support services in May 2006 when the "services had not been provided or charged for". The court heard that money was never paid to him.

Chaytor, from Todmorden, Lancashire – who held Bury North from 1997 until stepping down following the expenses scandal – took his case to the supreme court, the highest in the land, to try to prevent it being heard by the courts.

He argued, along with the former Labour MPs Elliot Morley, 58, who represented Scunthorpe, and 57-year-old Jim Devine, formerly the MP for Livingston, that criminal proceedings would infringe parliamentary privilege.

Chaytor changed his plea after his arguments were rejected by the supreme court. Morley and Devine face separate trials at a future date.

Labour confirmed that the former MP, already suspended from the party, had now been excluded.

viv said...

I know barristers have to do the best for their clients but asking for either a suspended prison sentence or a community sentence was totally unrealistic in this case and would have caused a huge public backlash even if the Judge had gone with.

But what really ires me about his barrister is the suggestion he "only pleaded guilty out of deep and genuine sense of remorse".

In fact he would to the Court of Appeal to try and stop himself from even being prosecuted and when that failed pleaded guilty for one simple reason, they had cast iron evidence against him so he was going to get convicted anyway and if had done to trial would not have had the benefit of a one third discount of his sentence for pleading guilty. So I would submit he had no sense of remorse whatsoever, he was listening to legal advice which could only have been you must put your hands up to this, and looking out for number one. It achieved the best possible outcome for him, a lenient prison sentence, of which he will serve at most half in prison and then the other half under probation supervision. Even so, having to pay all of the money back and then kick his heels in the nick for 9 months or so will make this grasping thief think twice in future, I am sure! Not quite the luxury on offer there he is accustomed to, shame!

I continue to hope Gerry McCann and Co are next!

viv said...

What an intersting article from the Guardian part of which I copy below.

Whilst I do not deny the press coverage in relation to Jeffries is of concern in potentially prejudicing his right to a fair trial in another respect I can understand the police motivation in releasing so much information about him/the investigation.

I believe he did a Kate and Gerry at interview and the police are going to have an uphill battle in proving beyond doubt he was involved. As the Guardian imply that unfortunately means he may well secure a libel payout from the media and it is interesting Carter Ruck comment on this. Clearly a firm who have no qualms whatsoever in securing monies for those who are guilty but are smart enough to make sure the police cannot prosecute them. There is something really rather immoral about a firm like Carter Ruck, also defenders of human killers, Trafigura.

Why, at the end of the article do The Guardian refer to the libel payout of Robert Murat but not refer to that received by Kate and Gerry McScam? Dare I hope that is because they know that Robert is innocent, but erm, the McScams, well they are thinking very clearly about the point of their article, one must not prejudice a suspect's right to a fair trial or act in contempt of court by, for example, causing damage to an ongoing police investigation as a result of comments in the media. There has already been a huge amount in the media, highly adverse to the McScamms, if we need some clear blue water between that so that these two can be put on trial, what a great thing that would be!

They are going to be forgotten in the media and that has to be a good thing, the murder of Jo Yeates, the wedding of Kate and William - which they have already tried to latch onto via their pink spinmaster, Motor Mouth Mitchell, regardless of his efforsts which it would seem the cash strapped Fund can still afford to pay for, the media interest in the McScams is over, until of course they get arrested and charged that is!

viv said...

The chief concern of many of those covering the investigation was the arrest of landlord Christopher Jefferies on suspicion of Joanna's murder. "It was always going to create a shit-storm," says one reporter.

Nigel Tait, partner at leading libel firm Carter Ruck, said an arrest in such a heavily scrutinised crime investigation precipitated a foreseeable reaction. He said: "There has been a media frenzy in the past few years with people who have been arrested and not charged. The press do really go to town."

Mark Thomson, a partner at defamation experts Atkins Thomson, agrees it was obvious the arrest of Jefferies would create a closer analysis of his private life. "When there is a huge public interest story and someone gets arrested, the national media go berserk."

Critics say the case illuminates the extent to which the contempt of court laws are now being ignored. An arrest is supposed to mean that newspapers can publish only the merest factual details, such as the person's name, age and occupation, lest justice be "seriously impeded or prejudiced".

Tait adds: "I have known cases where police say to the journalist off the record 'we are absolutely sure that this is the chap' and based on that briefing the press go to town, because they think it's only a matter of time before they are charged. In this case, I don't think it happened."

Yet there are damaging allegations that the police did brief reporters. The London-based Stokoe Partnership, which acted on Jefferies's behalf during interviews with detectives, said that some information published "may have been provided directly or indirectly by the police or the Crown Prosecution Service and published in breach of their duties of confidence".

The fact that Jefferies was released on bail after several days of questioning created a twist few expected.

While he was in custody the media attacks on the former English teacher had been particularly vicious, at one point prompting the attorney general to remind news organisations that they risked the chance of a fair trial. Libel lawyers believe there have been sustained defamatory attacks on the 65-year-old's reputation.

While Joanna – white, blonde and professional – served as the ideal victim, Jefferies's eccentric appearance provided the media with the ideal suspect. The Sun, currently offering a £50,000 reward to catch the killer, has described Jefferies as "lewd" and "creepy"; the Daily Mirror called him "a peeping Tom". Innuendo included his admiration for Christina Rossetti, a 19th-century poet who wrote about death.

Tait says: "The press coverage indicated there were very strong grounds to suggest this person was guilty and that it was just a matter of time. The evidence doesn't seem able to support that. Obviously the police are getting very frustrated – and so are the press. They want to find the criminal and have him convicted in the court of public opinion within 48 hours."

viv said...

Thomson said elements of the Fleet Street pack felt they could collectively get away with smearing Jefferies. "An arrest can lull the media into a false sense of security. There is a mob aspect to it where papers feel comforted by everyone else doing it. Ultimately in-house lawyers can only advise; the editor has the final decision."

Lawyers believe the scurrilous input of Twitter and the blogosphere has exacerbated the pressures on the traditional media. "Now it's got to be just that one step more sensational," says Tait.

Thomson said another key factor was rolling online news. "Newspapers have effectively 24-hour news now. There is no five hours to check or bounce something off a source. Rolling news presents difficulties. In the old days you have a story, you check the story, a lawyer would look at it, but that doesn't seem to happen now." He added: "Twenty-four-hour news creates huge problems. So much material is put up immediately, it is almost impossible to comply with notification procedures."

Others believe the police should have stressed from the outset that murder investigations, with their numerous leads to pursue and reliance on elaborate forensics, can take months to crack. It took until last Thursday for detectives to stress that it would "take time" to find Joanna's killer.

In the short term, Lewis believes the case holds a warning for future police inquiries. "I am not alone in fearing that the transition to 'reality TV policing' presents a real risk that a fair trial will not be possible. From a legal perspective, the police need to avoid the danger that a fair trial will be impossible."

Media coverage of the case and the attacks on Jefferies are also likely to reinforce calls for jury-less courts in subsequent high-profile cases. "Judges warn juries not to look on the internet, but when someone warns you not to do something, that's often the first thing you do," says Tait.

It also underlines the need to protect the innocent. On the internet, Jefferies may for ever be indelibly linked to the tragedy. His life has been irrevocably changed; returning to normality on the leafy streets of Clifton will be difficult, perhaps impossible. Some speculate he may leave for France, where he has a second home, but only after suing the British media.

Robert Murat, who lived near the Portuguese resort where Madeleine McCann went missing and who was repeatedly hounded by the British press, received £600,000 in damages. It is likely Joanna's murder may well reach the libel court before a criminal one.

viv said...

I have just read a transcript on McCannfiles of a BBC radio interview with Clarence Mitchell and have to say I find this comment completely shocking. Firstly he speaks about how his own media contacts are helpful in his work, then he claims that Dave Edgar also uses those former contacts in his work for the McCanns. The problem with this is a simple one, police officers in UK are absolutely forbidden to disclose any information whatsoever to private detectives or anyone else for that matter! So is Mitchell just deliberately lying in relation to this? It would seem that way!

He admits there have been a string of private investigators on "short term contracts" and he knows just as well as the rest of us, the very last thing they were engaged to do was actually find Madeleine, it is far more to do with the reason they employed Mitchell, defending themselves by media manipulation and digging out information in witnesses, including police ones against them. In 2008 they actually asked for any witness who had contacted either the Portuguese or British Police to now contact them. That sounds to me like a direct intention to pervert the course of justice and we can see that many police witnesses did complain about this - the heavy handed and overbearing contact from McCanns and their employees (all at the public /the medias expense of course.

viv said...

CLARENCE MITCHELL...And that money is used to employ... they've had a number of agencies, private detective agencies over the years, errr... on short term contracts. But currently, errm... it's the... the investigation is a private investigation being led by Dave Edgar, who's a former RUC officer, errr... retired, errr... and he calls in assistance, errr... from his colleague, former colleagues in various police forces, as and when he needs it. Errr... And there is work going on in Britain and in Portugal at different times but, because of the sensitive nature of it, obviously I can't go into any detail, but it's very much ongoing.

viv said...

It was interesting to read however, that Clarence first met Gerry when he erm "came home to collect some personal belongings" in May 2007.

In fact Gerry came home to be accompanied by Leicester Police to his home address to obtain a DNA sample for Madeleine.

We can only hazard a guess as to why no DNA sample of her was available in Portugal but I suspect it had something to do with Kate's need to find out how to use the washing machine.

No hairbrush, no clothing that she had been wearing? Well no, apparently they lamely offered the PJ a towel or a blanket that supposedly had Madeleine's scent on it for the tracker dogs.

I am sure they knew exactly which towel had been used on Madeleine. It seems to me that muddling up the DNA with the rest of Madeleine's family has been a very helpful part of the McCann strategy in defending themselves. Say the dogs were accurate, how good an excuse is it to say, well the dogs did not find Madeleine's DNA, they found a mixture of the rest of her family the markers of which she would obviously share. I am not suggesting the dogs actually did find her blood or the smell of her corpse but that obviously has to be a strong possibility. Sadly, not one that will stand up in court.

People say this was not premeditated, it was all an accident, bahhh humbug! These two are doctors, cold, calculating, emotionless doctors and they have always known precisely what they are doing, but Kate was not sure she actually wanted to go on that holiday, of course Gerry did!

viv said...

It was also interesting to read how Clarence spun the online criticism of the McCanns, according to him it is purely about their "negligence". Now you know better than that Clarence, just when are you going to mention the GASPAR statements because you know that truly fascinates the online community, or would that be harmful to your paymasters, might they even sack you!

viv said...

Speaking of which Docmac's rather interesting thread about David Payne/The Gaspar statement on Missing Madeleine, (I think the thread was called The Gaspar statement - the other one) has just gone whoosh clunk off their site and moderators say they do not know what has happened to it. How very strange!

Wizard said...

Hi Viv,

It was right that David Chaytor got his comeuppance – no one should be above the law. I hope other MP’s take note - but I’m not holding my breath - the temptation no doubt will prove too much for some.

Mitchell imo just prostitutes himself to the highest bidder so nothing surprises me about him. No wonder he became politically active and wanted to become an MP – easy money up for grabs.

In the Jo Yeates case, the police are now taking DNA samples from her Facebook friends. They are swabbing dozens of people and even targeting men who live over 100 miles from her home.

Police are also asking for background information about her life and her relationship with her boyfriend Greg Reardon. One of the last texts she sent on her mobile phone was to a male friend asking him out for a drink 8.15 approx. on the night she went missing. He says he did not answer until after nine when she failed to reply to his call.

Mobile phone signals are now being looked at to check out alibis.

We know she bought two cans of cider and pizza could she have asked someone over for supper. Hmm….

viv said...

Wiz, thanks very much for the further updates on the Jo Yeates case which are very interesting.

I must confess that has been a point of confusion for me, why two bottles of cider and a large pizza which just seemed too much for her to eat. Also she seemed to be going to considerable care with her shopping. In terms of their relationship why would he spend all weekend just before Christmas visiting his half brother and not in any form of mobile phone contact.

I suppose if the continuing revelations tell us anything at all it is best to keep an open mind!

I think this is a case that is going to continue to fascinate and would like to leave this thread open for us to comment upon as new developments come to light, although as you will see I have opened a thread on Blanchard, this cool cocky con merchant just reminds me of someone...now you will never guess who!

So I suggest we keep reverting back to this one for comments on the tragic case of Jo which at present certainly remains a total mystery.

I know we have taken this young victim to heart, just like Maddie and wish the police the very best in bringing to book her killer(s).

viv said...

Actually my step father told me about a week ago that in his opinion the bf came back, and lost the plot with her...I often find his opinion to be a very good one to listen to.

Wizard said...

Viv - I think your step father could well be right.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

I think the fact that seemingly Jo wanted to have a rather intimate supper with another man and was also on the phone to one of her girlfriend's to arrange another get together is of vital importance to this investigation.

I do not pretend to understand why he was at home planning to go off for the weekend and she was at that time in the pub with her mates, maybe I just do not understand how relationships work with young people but it seems extremely odd.

Neither do I understand why he would have needed to wait until the early hours of the Monday morning prior to reporting her missing to the police.

I think we need to be careful because the family do seem to be exonerating him, take the comments from her brother for example, but that could certainly be motivated by a determination not to damage the police investigation. The police will often wish to kid a suspect along....if Jeffries has nothing to do with it, I fear they are going to have to pay a lot of money to put his flat back together!

viv said...

Criminologist: 'Jo Yeates Knew Her Killer'

10:52pm UK, Wednesday January 05, 2011

Gary Mitchell, Sky News Online

Detectives know far more about who murdered Joanna Yeates than they are revealing, according to a leading criminologist.

Professor David Wilson said despite reports of a criminal profiler joining the murder hunt, he believes police have already narrowed down the hunt to a small number of suspects.

He said Miss Yeates was highly likely to have known her killer - and detectives would now be relying on forensic evidence to rule people in or out.

Prof Wilson, of Birmingham City University, told Sky News Online a profiler would probably be used as a formality by officers looking to "cover all the bases".

Criminal profiling, which started in the FBI in the 1970s, has captured the public imagination thanks to film and TV portrayals such as the Fitz character played by Robbie Coltrane in 1990s TV series Cracker.

It's forensic evidence that will lead to the killer in this case, not a Cracker-like profiler.

Prof David Wilson, criminologist
It involves building up a picture of a suspect by their choice of victim, behaviour and clues at the crime scene.

Britain's best-known profiler is Dr Paul Britton, who worked with police investigating the Fred and Rose West killings.

But some experts and detectives are sceptical about profilers' abilities to get inside the minds of criminals.

Prof Wilson said there was no evidence they had ever directly led to the capture of a killer.

"My own view is the police know far more than they are revealing," he said.

"They have a pretty strong sense of who the perpetrator is and I get the impression that they are waiting for forensic evidence to rule suspects in or out.

"It's forensic evidence that will lead to the killer in this case, not a Cracker-like profiler.

"If I wear my hat as a profiler, though, I would say the strongest theory is that the perpetrator and victim know each other."

How Events Have Unfolded:
:: Dec 17: Miss Yeates leaves the Ram pub at 8pm to walk home.

:: Dec 20: Police make first appeal over Miss Yeates' disappearance.

:: Dec 26: Police confirm a body found on Christmas Day is that of Miss Yeates.

:: Full timeline of events.

However, criminal profiler Dr Glenn Wilson said the revelation of Miss Yeates' missing sock indicates that police "may have excluded people closer to home".

He said: "The sock may be important because it may have been taken as a trophy by the murderer.

"It makes me wonder if they're now thinking of this in terms of a serial killer.

"The difficulty is that profiling works best when you've had a number of killings and you can derive some kind of pattern from them."

viv said...

It is nice that we do have two genuine experts commenting on the case here, rather than someone who just likes to slag the police off, let us hope that following ITN settling their differences with the police we hear no more from that particular "expert".

I wonder if the police were looking for that sock when they ripped Jeffries flat to bits and maybe are looking for a serial killer, close to Jo, but not exactly a close friend. Sorry Wiz, I do not by any means ruling out the bf, but Jeffries still seems more likely to me, and he used the poor relationship between Jo and her bf to his own advantage?

I notice Jeffries is now doing a Kate and Gerry -using the media/friends to declare his "innocence".

viv said...

This snippet is interesting from The Telegraph, I had not heard before about a scream apparently heard by someone at midnight from the same block as Joanna. That may of course have come from Jeffries, but if it is from someone else ??

If screams were genuinely heard at both 9 pm and then again at midnight, it implies that Jo was taken from her flat and taken to another in the same block, prior to meeting her death? Hence the police rip his flat apart?

viv said...

Officers are still receiving information daily, and it has emerged that someone living in the same block as Miss Yeates, 25, has reported hearing a scream near midnight on the day she was last seen alive. Two other witnesses say they heard screams at 9pm.

viv said...

Jeffries was originally saying he saw Jo leave with two persons at 9 pm.

Then he chooses to deny that as evidence emerges two separate witnesses heard screams at that exact moment.

Say he then chose to tell police well I actually heard a scream at midnight.

If that was the scenario no wonder they think it is him!

I tend to agree with the experts above, they have just one or two suspects and are looking for forensic evidence to try and confirm that.

I also agree a profiler would be handy if they are comparing one murder with another to see if it was carried out by the same suspect. There was a prior murder in the exact same area in 1974.

viv said...

and in that situation a mass screening of the DNA of all men in the Bristol area as suggested by an MP would simply be a waste of tax payers money. The police do not have finite resources and clearly have to target their efforts where it is called for, that I believe they were doing by honing in on Jeffries flat. His comments to the media and the police in an attempt to be sly and manipulative, I believe, led them to him.

Di said...

Hi Viv & Wizard

I did not know another scream had been heard at midnight, interesting.

Matthew Wood the friend Jo invited out for a drink, but he missed her text at the time, then text back an hour later. Surely Jo would have picked up this text and responded if she was able to, had she still been at home at the time.

My friend thinks it was the bf, I am not so sure. I think we have four in the frame at the moment.

viv said...

Hiya Di

It is a fascinating development I think, that someone in her block says (he?) heard a scream at midnight, particularly given two people heard screams at 9 pm and given there were two hearing this one corroborates the other. It either heavily put Jeffries in the frame or means Jo did not immediately die at 9 pm. I would tend to think the first may be true.

It was the inconsistencies in the stories of Gerry McCann that seemed to convince both British and Portuguese Police he was involved in the disappearance of little Maddie and there is no doubt he most certainly was. I see some pretty uncanny similarities in the needs of both Jeffries and Gerry to implant information to satisfy their need to control. Both have a flaring temper when aroused.

Going back to what you say, if Jo did not scream until midnight, you are right, she would have answered that text, she must have been in the wrong flat by that stage or she just could not have screamed at midnight as her killer knows full well.

I cannot count to four in terms of suspects, I have got BJ, Jeffries and the other neighbour, but who else? I am discounting her friend she tried Matthew, are you ruling him in also?

Sometimes when women are not getting the love and attention they need they will turn to another man who has a very different character to get that, I just do not think it could have been him somehow, but, well, we do not know the half of what the police clearly do, that is for sure!

viv said...

I would just add that teacher and doctor/heart specialist are jobs that a control freak would seek out. Unfortunately like the police, those professions have a fair sprinkling of complete nutcases within their ranks.

I was horrified to hear about the police officer abusing very vulnerable female heroin addicts and the like, "I am the law". Then there is the paedophile who controls a string of women, sexually abusing tiny babies for him. It is sometimes frightening to contemplate that there can be such men in our midsts who actually seem on the surface completely normal and also that there can be many women who completely fall under their spell and act out just as badly towards children, going way beyond a failure to protect from harm, actually inflicting it.

Di said...

Hi Viv

I am not ruling Matthew out at the moment, although I am also not ruling him in. Still keeping an open mind.

However the Police seem more concerned about a car that was seen by a couple acting suspiciously where Jo's body was eventually found. They even reported the car to the Police which was days before Jo was found.

The said car slowed down past
this couple several times. What a pity they were not able to get a reg or even colour or make, yet were so concerned that the car passed them several times they reported it to the Police, a light coloured car. Very odd.

Di said...

I am shocked to read today that Kate & Gerry are going to be doing a book signing, have they no dignity at all. Or is it a case of only pros and family invited to make it look good, hmmm.

I really believe that time has taken it's toll on both of them, they are now just trying to keep their heads above water at any cost.

Poor Madeleine, but more importantly I hope someone is looking out for the twins.

viv said...

Hiya Di

Thanks for your thinking on this, and yes, we do need to keep an open mind, that is true!

It would be very odd behaviour for a killer with a body on board to keep going past witnesses as described, I would have thought he would just drive off again pdq! But it does give us an indication of just how difficult the police job actually is, they clearly need to find the vehicle that transported her body, that would be a major breakthrough.

I was interested to read yesterday, that someone with local knowledge of the area would have quite easily been able to drive from Canynge Road to the spot where the body was dumped on Longwood Lane without hardly passing any CCTV. I continue to believe this is someone very local to Joanna and she did know her killer.

As for the McCanns attending a book signing, I can find no report of this, have you got a link?

But I certainly agree with the way you put matters, they desperately try to keep their head above water and yes, the toll has certainly been taken on them. What a contrast they present now to those halcyon days in Praia da Luz, in the days and weeks immediately following them "losing" her whilst apparently being negligent at a meal. Back then they seemed so delighted and excited by their behaviour, Gerry shook with hilarity, Kate radiated with suntan, freshly highlighted hair and nicely co-ordinating outfits and jewellery. What an effort she went to, to stay positive for little Maddie eh?

Like you, I continue to hope someone is seriously looking out for the twins and that in fact the McCanns are absolutely barred from ever being allowed to take them abroad again.

Wizard said...

I think with the Joanna Yeates case and Madeleine’s they both have attracted wide coverage because journalists, police and us have a collective unconscious sense that simply says, ‘what we know just doesn’t add up’. This fires up everyone’s curiosity to know more and dare I say it - speculate.

Today Joanna’s best friend tells us she was not a love cheat, which could well be true. Nevertheless, to me her death was up close and personal and a crime of passion comes to mind. Why with the boyfriend out of the way in Sheffield did she phone up a male friend and ask him out for a drink. It wouldn’t be unusual to do this but surely, she wasn’t lonely so soon.

The missing pizza and cider. You mentioned Viv, the pizza was quite large for one I can’t help thinking she met up with/or arrange for someone to come round for supper that night hence the two cans/bottles of cider – supper for two. If that supper guest was the killer they wouldn’t want any suggestion that a meal was being prepared for two so they take the pizza and drinks away with them to conceal the fact.

The boyfriend to me is not out of the frame but as he is the most obvious suspect, the police must have tried to break his alibi and they cannot. Therefore, it either isn’t him, or someone is lying for him or perhaps it’s the unknown supper guest.


Wizard said...

A recent facebook statement by the McCanns' says. ‘We have pushed back the release of our book to Madeleine's birthday. May 12, 2011. We need as much exposure for the book so we can get Madeleine home.’

Am I missing the logic here? How does publishing a book bring Madeleine home?

Clarence tells us, ‘Kate and Gerry felt they and their friends were mounting a perfectly correct and proper checking system given the lack of resources available to them.’

Hmm… they had a babysitting service available to them, there were two of them - one could have stayed home while the other went out, or they both could have stayed home with a take-away and a video. What lack of resources do they mean - have I missed something?

KM in the face of speculation tells us that she, 'knows what happened because she was there.’ Well I’m sure that is a truthful statement… but I thought they said the abduction took place because she wasn’t there.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

Apart from the obvious appeal of the victims in both the Maddie and Jo cases it is that sense of the public having a sense of feeling the perpetrators were very close to the victim and desperately trying to figure out, from a limited range of possible suspects, just who it was and how. Whenever it is just a stranger the police are looking for there is not that opportunity for the publics obvious fascination with such a whodunnit to be aroused. But with Maddie I think it goes even deeper than that, many people remain unconvinced that they actually killed her. Like me, I think that PJ question to Kate, were you thinking of transferring custody to someone else in UK and the degree of planning that seems to have been involved just add to the mystery. It becomes more a case of did they kill her or did they dispose of her in some other way and if they killed her, how did they do that, why, and what did they do with the body.

Sometimes I even have to wonder if Gerry actually planned it this way, because he was counting on public curiosity to keep the mystery going and keep the money flowing. I honestly believe he is such a wickedly cunning and calculating man, he would go those lengths.

Which brings me on to the comments of Clarence Mitchell, again emphasising the apparent negligence of the McCanns. His words would have been extremely carefully prepared for the effect they are going to have. I am in no doubt about that. So why did he use such an inflammatory phrase --- a perfectly good checking system within the resources available to them?

The public are going to think, now hang on a minute, this is a wealthy couple in a group of no less than nine people. So how is it they could have been in any way shape or form, short on resources to properly care for their own children. Something parents know full well, rich or poor is their responsibility to properly allocate resources to, no one else's.

I believe that Gerry wants Mitchell to continue to emphasise their neglect, it is the infamy he thrives upon to continue to arouse the public interest. Gerry would reason that people will buy their book because they just want to know the answer to one simple question? How did you think that was safe or reasonable.

But I continue to believe that this so called negligence is nothing more than a front to sell the McCanns, they care not what the public think of them. I do not know how anyone could seriously believe that a couple of doctors would not only leave their children alone to cry, they would also leave the door open with a poor sleeping and clearly very mobile four year old inside.

viv said...

Neither do I know how anyone could believe that Gerry is innocent when on 4 May he told the police they both entered the front of the apartment with their key, but by 10 May when further grilled by the police says he was wrong about that, they actually used the open patio door to the rear.

This is the kind of inconsistency that tells the police for investigative purposes, this is our man, all the police need to do from that point onwards is develop the evidence to be able to prove it in court. With someone as scheming as Gerry who made Madeleine just disappear without trace and not even leave any of her DNA behind, that can be an extremely difficult task.

If she so much as lay on that bed that night, why was there no DNA from her on the pillow? Why did Gerry have to go home with Leicester Police to get her DNA off that pillow? Or is that because the PJ did not seize that for evidence, I would find that hard to believe??

From the email between Paiva and Marshall they seem to believe Maddie disappeared that afternoon, they were querying where Payne was and what he was wearing. If the bed had been changed the day before, surely Maddie's DNA should have been on the pillow and sheets from the Wed night, but the only bed that appears to be messed up was the one under the window, where Kate had to admit she slept. Did she sleep there with Maddie, to have a last night with her? Because of what had happened to Maddie the previous night? Why did Gerry say Payne checked the children for them on the Wed night. Something the Payne group are all keen to deny, "each were responsible for checking their own children".

I get fed up with reading conspiracy theories about this and attacks on LP, CEOP etc.

Did it not occur to people that the best way to gain information from someone like Gerry is to lead him to believe you believe him!! To let Gerry's head swell even further so that he inevitably puts his foot in it, I think some police /CEOP critics on the web must be paedophiles themselves!

viv said...

Posting the article that Di is referring to about a car being reported to the police for acting suspiciously BEFORE Jo was even reported missing, it could tend to suggest someone looking for a suitable place.

I am sure we all hope that the item that is currently subject to forensic tests does lead the police to the killer. Also interesting the police removed yet more bags of evidence from Jo's flat.

viv said...

'Highly significant' clue discovered in Jo Yeates inquiry
Police are conducting forensic tests on a "highly significant" clue that has been handed to officers investigating the murder of Joanna Yeates.

If forensic tests are successful, the item could prove crucial in placing any potential suspect at the site on Longwood Lane, Failand, where her remains were discovered by dog walkers on Christmas morning Photo: PABy Martin Evans and Richard Savill 11:00PM GMT 11 Jan 2011
Detectives have ordered urgent soil and pollen tests on the item that was presented to police by a member of the public in recent days.

Police have denied that the fresh item of evidence is the 25-year-old's missing ski sock.

The development follows a series of appeals by Avon and Somerset police for the public to come forward with information about the landscape architect's disappearance and murder.

As well as the grey knee length ski sock that was missing when her body was found, detectives are also keen to trace a Tesco Finest mozzarella and tomato pizza bought by Miss Yeates on the night she went missing.

No trace of the pizza or its packaging have ever been found.

viv said...

Related Articles

Joanna Yeates murder: detectives investigating 'highly significant' piece of new evidence11 Jan 2011
Joanna Yeates: police arrest architect's landlord on suspicion of murder11 Jan 2011
Joanna Yeates was with two people, her landlord tells police11 Jan 2011
Parents of missing architect Joanna Yeates: 'we knew she had been abducted'11 Jan 2011
Joanna Yeates murder: police could use DNA sample to trace killer11 Jan 2011
Joanna Yeates murder: letter containing pizza label sent to pub where architect had final drink11 Jan 2011
Police have refused to give any further information on the item, but sources within the force have insisted it is being taken seriously.

The use of relatively new soil and pollen tests on the item suggest it may have been recovered from the secluded rural area where Miss

Yeates's body was discovered on Christmas Day.

If forensic tests are successful, the item could prove crucial in placing any potential suspect at the site on Longwood Lane, Failand, where her remains were discovered by dog walkers on Christmas morning.

A police source said: “The results could bring detectives closer to finding her murderer.”

Yesterday forensic officers returned to the flat in Canynge Road, Clifton, where Miss Yeates lived with her 27-year-old boyfriend Greg Reardon.

Detectives wearing white protective suits spent more than six hours inside the flat, removing a number of items in evidence bags.

In another development police have also confirmed they are searching for a motorist seen acting suspiciously in Longwood Lane the morning after Miss Yeates disappeared.

A couple became concerned when they saw a vehicle pass them three of four times in a short period on the morning of Saturday December 18.

They reported their concerns to the police even though at that stage Miss Yeates had not even been reported missing.

Her snow-covered body was found by dog walkers, dumped on the verge of Longwood Lane a week later on Christmas morning.

It is not clear how long she had lain there, but one theory is that heavy snow which fell in the early hours of Saturday 18 December could have concealed her remains from view.

Police last week appealed for information after a light-coloured 4x4 was sighted in Longwood Lane around the time Miss Yeates went missing.

But Avon and Somerset police yesterday refused to confirm if they were linking the two sightings.

Spokesman Martin Dunscombe said: ''We take every piece of information we receive from the public seriously and this is one of many lines of inquiry we've pursued.''

In a public appeal on January 3, Detective Chief Inspector Phil Jones appealed for any information on the 4x4 seen in Longwood Lane.

He said: ''We have had a number of reports of vehicles on Longwood Lane during the late Friday evening and early hours of Saturday morning including a possibly light coloured 4x4.

''This 4x4 and the other vehicles may be completely unconnected, but I urge anyone in that car or any other driver in the vicinity that night to come forward.''

Di said...

Hi Viv & Wizard

The book signing was mentioned on twitter, it said Clarence mentioned it during one of his rounds promoting the forthcoming book. I have not listened to any of Clarence's promotions, could not face it, so sorry cannot confirm.

Wizard all I can say is £££££££££££

However, if you believe what some people think, and I know of one person myself, the book will be published with much exposure and low and behold a few weeks/months later Madeleine will be found unharmed as she was secreted away by the McCanns in the biggest money making scam ever.

Stranger things happen I suppose.

viv said...

Hiya Di and thanks for coming back on that one.

I think I will hang fire on indulging my inevitable complete outrage at the two McScams attending a book signing until I know it is a fact, rather than just what has been propagated on the internet... a bit like that apparent Murat v Tanner action, I will believe it when I actually see it.

Speaking of money, I just had a wry smile when I re-read my comment above, now hang on a minute think the public this is a "wealthy" couple. The reality as we know is that you cannot just think ah two doctors equals wealthy.

In fact Kate had not worked since before the birth of the twins, so no money there and that lovely 5 bedroomed house is mortgaged up to the hilt, costing a staggering £2000 per month. I suppose a mortgage at that level can be acceptable to some who perhaps live in London and have the definite income to service that level of loan.

But we know the McScams were going in for IVF treatment on Kate almost as soon as dear little Maddie was born. Were they already thinking there is a better way of being incredibly wealthy than just have to go along with hard work and NHS pay scales? Were they just not satisfied with their little gift, Maddie McCann. Nothing would surprise me about these two, but the reality of Kate not working may be more simply explained. They took that large mortgage on, on the strength of her earning power to pay it, but she has a mental health problem. She actually must do IMO to continue to live the lie and go on TV to brag about how Maddie just moved on from complaining about being left alone to cry. That was hardly the handiwork of any normal mom!

viv said...

But I am sure Kate will explain it all again for us with such finesse in her forthcoming book which we now learn she is partially writing, rather than writing.

So critics on the next regarding her literacy were too far wrong there then!

But that is unfair, she will need a spinning expert to be ghost writing it for her too, I am sure, maybe Rosiepops lol! Not that his/her grammar and spelling are any better!

viv said...

*net I mean!

Wizard said...

I was just sitting down to read today’s Mail when on page 44 I saw a special investigation article from David Jones in Cape Town.

Shirien Dewani who was honeymoon in Cape Town with his new bride when he says the taxi they were travelling in was hijacked and his new wife Anni was shot dead and he was robbed and thrown from the car.

The taxi driver claims he was paid by Dewani to hire two hit men to kill his wife. Dewani is currently fighting extradition from England to South Africa to face his accusers.

I haven’t been following this case so I thought ok but much to my surprise I read from David Jones: -

‘In many ways, the case disturbingly echoes that of Madeleine McCann – which I have studied at length and written about on many occasions. And visiting South Africa this week on the trail of the honeymoon murderer, the parallels seemed clear.

A mysterious crime is committed overseas, and – eager to protect its reputation – the host country promptly accuses the apparent victim, a British tourist, of being behind it. There follows a fiercely patriotic international row which is seized upon by internet conspiracy theorists, whose lurid speculation further muddies the truth.

Almost inevitably, in this spin-obsessed age, a PR battle begins. The McCanns employed former BBC man CM to do their bidding; the Dewanis have plumped for the altogether racier Max Clifford.’

It would appear from the start of this article Jones thinks Dewanis is innocent and being set up but as I read further into the article he picks out all the reasons why the South Africans want him extradited – i.e. what Dewanis claims to have happened doesn’t add up.

Could Mr Jones is a round about way be saying the McCanns are guilty too.

Hmm....it is the Daily Mail though - lol
Daily Mail 15:01:11

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

I too have not really been following this case, but my immediate thoughts are what ill conceived comments from the Mail.

How can SA be seeking to "protect its reputation" by accusing the victim when they already have three in the dock for it? It is their allegations that have then led to Dewani and I think that just like the PJ, SA have actually gone to extraordinary lengths not to just blame the victim, by already rounding up the three involved. This surely must be tongue in cheek because I believe the violent crime rate in SA is one of the worst in the world!

Maybe it is another roundabout way of having a go at the McCanns within the strait jacket the papers are clearly under, because we have recently been told by the British Media, it was most certainly not Portugal "trying to protect its repuation", it was British Police going out to get British villains. The real situation is that in both cases, the host country have actually gone out of their way to exonerate the victim. We only have to look at the PJ file and see just how much work they put in on the McCanns hapless stranger abduction tales to see that is the reality and it is that, presumably, the McCanns demand a review of.

It had clearly got to June and July 2007 when British Police were saying to Portugal, now come on, this is Gerry McCann stop messing about and as we can see from the court prinout, Mr Menezes feels that if anyone should be prosecuted for kindapping and trafficking Madeleine, it is the McCanns themselves.

viv said...

I just wanted to come back to my comment above, I cannot believe the PJ did not seize the pillow from Maddie's bed for evidence. I have just found a helpful extract copied below from a JM poster, which confirms that of course they did seize that pillow.

So how come Gerry had to return to Rothley with Leicester Police to get a sample of Maddie's DNA from her pillow?

IMO, this would seem to confirm that NO DNA evidence was found on that bed, Maddie was simply not in it or on it that night, she had already gone before they went out. It would also seem to confirm that she could not have slept in it on the Wednesday night either, the cleaners having changed the beds that morning.

The tennis balls pic is accepted as official, it is on the PJ files and it seems pretty clear that picture was taken on the Tuesday, I would say prior to something really bad happening to her on the Tuesday night.

It was notable that Mr Geraghty was a close friend of the McCanns, a former Leicester businessman and clearly very wealthy. He was there with them on Maddie's birthday and I believe they went back to his villa. He is a keen golfer, just like Gerry and I believe lives on a golf complex.

So if Maddie did disappear perhaps Wednesday morning I wonder whether the police have been critically interviewing Mr Geraghty as to whether he knows where she was moved to.

I do not accept the final report of the PJ, he says they knew no one and had no help. It was probably written to keep certain evidence under wraps of continuing interest to British Police and so as not to damage the investigation.

I continue to believe that Maddie may well have been still alive when the McCanns arranged her removal from that apartment.

It is not difficult to imagine that Mr Geraghty may also be a friend of Brian Kennedy, into really big money to be made from the building industry etc., I tend to think this does have something to do with what we discussed a long time ago, that big contract that was to be carried out on Leicester Hospitals but then got axed due to escalating and massive costs. Gerry " I am not her to enjoy myself?"...The project if I recall was axed in July 2007.

I think Gerry is the type of man who would say, this has happened to Madeleine, you have got to help me and keep your mouth shut, otherwise I spill the beans on you and you can forget your fat lifestyle in PDL.

viv said...


(The assumption can also be made that as no sound of Maddie screaming etc was heard by any witnesses she was not simply lifted from her bed by some stranger, a bed that did not have her DNA on it anyway - had she actually slept there it would have been smothered in her skin cells hair follicles and saliva i.e. masses of her DNA!)

09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2315 The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative

There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found

viv said...

Although from the Daily Mirror this piece is validated by actual quotes from the police, most notably:

One detective told how killers can manipulate other people’s recollections of events to their advantage when friends or ­relatives have grown suspicious. The officer said: “They can be cunning and say, ‘Do you remember what time I got home...? No it was earlier’.”

and...now who else can we think of who insists they are innocent, demanded to be eliminated and sought help (i.e. a posse of lawyers) ermmm..well both Jeffries and McCann have done this, that is for sure!

“The killer may also have insisted they are innocent and begged for help in getting ­eliminated.

“Often close friends or relatives simply cannot believe this person could be guilty and agree to give them an alibi. Even a few minutes can make all the difference.”

viv said...

Jo Yeates murder: Stop shielding Joanna's killer, plead police
by Laurie Hanna, Daily Mirror 15/01/2011

Police fear Jo Yeates's killer is being shielded by a close friend or partner who is too scared to turn them in.

Officers appealed to anyone harbouring the murderer to come forward.

Her family's anguish is being made worse by not knowing who strangled the 25-year-old in Bristol.

A police source said: "The killer may have let slip something to a partner or friend. The worry is this person may be scared to raise the subject."

THEY will be gripped by fear, inner turmoil and even denial, knowing their partner or friend has killed Jo Yeates.

But police last night appealed to anyone who may be covering for the murderer to put the anguish aside and hand them over.

Detectives believe the killer may have let slip their terrible secret or be acting unusually after strangling 25-year-old architect Jo and dumping her body in the snow.

A police source said: “The ­pressure on the killer to keep this murder a secret is immense.


“He may have already let ­something slip to a partner or trusted friend and his behaviour may have changed.

“The worry is that anyone who may have noticed this may be in denial or that they could be scared to raise the subject because they don’t want to accept the killer is someone they know well.

“It is not that unusual to find people shielding killers.

“It is quite possible that the person who murdered Jo has been behaving oddly and that has not been passed on to the team.

“The killer may also have insisted they are innocent and begged for help in getting ­eliminated.

“Often close friends or relatives simply cannot believe this person could be guilty and agree to give them an alibi. Even a few minutes can make all the difference.”

viv said...

Each day that goes by without finding Jo’s killer only deepens the agony of her distraught family, who are desperate for justice.

In the four weeks since she was strangled after returning to her flat in Bristol from drinks with work colleagues, police hunting the killer have received hundreds of calls.

But they believe the key to unlocking the mystery lies with a friend or relative who knows the murderer’s identity.

One detective told how killers can manipulate other people’s recollections of events to their advantage when friends or ­relatives have grown suspicious. The officer said: “They can be cunning and say, ‘Do you remember what time I got home...? No it was earlier’.”

Jo was found dumped in thick snow on Christmas Day in a quiet lane near a quarry three miles from the home she shared with boyfriend Greg Reardon, 27. He was away at the time. The last person to speak to her was best pal Rebecca Scott, 25. They chatted on the phone as Jo walked home from the pub.

The marine biology student pleaded: “You might have noticed a friend or family member acting suspiciously.

“Report that to the police. I’m sure if that was your friend lying there on Christmas Day you would want others to do the same.”

Officers were yesterday searching a second area near to where Jo’s body was dumped. They were seen combing ­undergrowth in Providence Lane.

It is thought they may have been stepping up their efforts to find a ski sock that was missing from Jo’s body when it was found.


Retired electrician Jeffrey Hurley, 80, lives in the lane. He said “It must be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

“I find it strange the killer hid the body so close to the road. He could have hidden it in several disused quarries nearby and it wouldn’t have been found for years.”

Eighty officers are working around the clock on the case. Avon and Somerset Police said: “We are still appealing for information.”

But detectives believe Jo’s killer is still in Britain.

One said: “We have not made inquiries abroad.”

viv said...

This from the Telegraph is also very interesting in perhaps confirming Jo's body was stored somewhere at the mansion house where her flat is situate prior to being dumped.

I still tend to the view this killer has a really sadistic streak, he could have just lost her body in the quarries but chose to leave it to be found on Christmas Day?? Sick, beyond belief.

viv said...

Joanna Yeates murder: police seize plans of house
Police investigating the murder of Joanna Yeates have seized plans to the house where the landscape architect lived.

TelegraphPlayer-82546819:38AM GMT 14 Jan 2011
Detectives are studying the drawings of the Victorian mansion to see if the murderer might have hidden her body somewhere before dumping it, The Sun reported.

Miss Yeates, 25, went missing on December 17 after sharing Christmas drinks with work colleagues. Her body was discovered eight days later on Christmas Day. She had been strangled.

Miss Yeates lived in a basement flat in the Clifton area of Bristol with her boyfriend, Greg Reardon, 27, who was away for the weekend at the time of the murder.

The building is split into flats and Miss Yeates's apartment is believed to be the only one with just one way in and out.

A spokesman for Bristol City Council said: "The documents have been seized and are part of the investigation."

Joanna Yeates: DNA of 1974 murder suspects considered 14 Jan 2011
Saliva found on body 12 Jan 2011
Killer 'could have avoided CCTV' 12 Jan 2011
Yeates inquiry: 'highly significant' clue found 11 Jan 2011
Joanna Yeates murder: detectives search village close to where architect's body was found14 Jan 2011
Murder investigation launched as post-mortem reveals Joanna Yeates was strangled14 Jan 2011
Detectives hunting the killer of Miss Yeates are considering taking DNA samples from suspects questioned during a similar murder 37-years ago, sources have claimed.

Student teacher Glenis Carruthers, 20, was strangled to death in 1974 just yards from where Miss Yeates lived in the Clifton area of Bristol.

Her killer was never found but detectives undertaking a cold case review of the murder have been liaising closely with officers in the Miss Yeates investigation after identifying a series of startling similarities in the two cases.

Both women had been strangled, were found fully clothed and had not been sexually assaulted.

They both appeared to have died quickly without putting up a struggle and in both case the victims were found without shoes.

More than 16,000 people were questioned about the murder in 1974 and now officers in the Miss Yeates’ investigation are considering taking DNA samples from some of those interviewed at the time.

A source close to the investigation said: “There are a number of startling similarities between the two cases, despite the huge time gap. DNA testing can eliminate people very quickly and so can be very useful in narrowing the scope of the inquiry.

“As there is already a cold case review into the Carruthers murder taking place it would be a relatively simple task to pinpoint anyone of interest and rule them out.”

Forensic teams working on Miss Yeates’s body are believed to have recovered a small DNA sample from a spot of saliva.

Experts have said the tiny swab could provide the breakthrough they have been looking for in tracing her killer.

Dr Carolyn Morton, a principle lecturer in forensic science at the University of the West of England, said: “If they do have a saliva test and it is a pure sample from one person, it is absolutely brilliant news.

“They then just have to check who or find out who the owner is. It is a very strong lead and line of inquiry.”

There have been calls for a mass DNA sweep of men living in the Clifton area following breakthroughs in similarly difficult inquiries.

A spokesman for Avon and Somerset Police said: “We would not discuss things we might do in an investigation but there are no plans at this stage to undertake DNA tests of this nature.”

Wizard said...

If it had not been snowing heavily when Jo Yeates was dumped, her body would have been found almost immediately. Due to the heavy snowfall, it was concealed quickly. The cold snap kept the snow there for sometime but as soon as the snow began to melt it was discovered.

The killer would not have known concealment would be complete for this amount of time due to snow. I would think they tried to lift the body over the fence to ensure concealment but found the dead weight too much or they may well have panicked when they saw car headlights and left her by the roadside.

With regards to the body being concealed in the flats for a while - the boyfriend did not return until Sunday night so the body could have laid there for sometime. Although Jo’s keys were found in the flat it does not mean the killer did not take them whilst they considered their next move. Returning later to remove the body and clean up – then leaving the keys behind. This argument depends on whether it snowed heavily also on the Saturday or Sunday night though.

Viv have you read somewhere exactly when the boyfriend reported her missing I know there was a delay of a couple of days. Does this mean he notified her missing when he returned home on Sunday night or on returning home on Sunday he waited a couple of days after that before contacting the police.

Di said...

Hi Viv & Wizard


I would be very surprised if there is still an outstanding mortgage on the McCann's house. Obviously the mortgage would not have been paid off, that would be too obvious, but the money will be set aside. I have a feeling this is why the fund directors have been leaving so as not to be tarnished. I don't believe they would have left because of the money being spent on lawyers it had to be something much deeper.

Di said...

Hi Wizard

From what I understand the boyfriend returned home on Sunday but waited 4 hours to report Jo missing. It is also stated that he had no contact with Jo over the whole weekend, which I find extremely odd.

Boyfriend returns home, Jo's coat, keys, boots etc., are there, the cat is going mad, I assume from lack of food, but the boyfriend thinks nothing is odd! Why did he not contact Jo to see where she was? Four hours later he reports her missing.

I suppose it could all be innocent though, I have become rather cynical since 2007

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

It is interesting the body was found apparently alongside a quarry and we know that it was frozen. But I suppose even if it had only been there for a matter of several hours in those temperatures that may have happened.

I know what you are getting at, a witness saw someone agile jumping a fence.

Killers sometimes like to play games, it must be that either he intended to hide the body properly within the quarry or conversely he intends to say, look I could have hid it properly but I do not need to bother because you will not be able to catch me (i.e. the psycopathic type, rather than just the moment of rage type killer). I suppose that maybe the difference between the two main suspects, perhaps?

I read that the bf reported her missing in the early hours of Monday morning having returned home on the Sunday night. I do not know the exact delay in reporting her missing but it surely must have been at least four hours? That is very odd indeed, but perhaps could be explained by him frantically phoning friends and relatives? In innocent situations there is sometimes a delay of that length, I suppose in a way having to make the call to the police would fill an innocent person with horror, it is that admission to yourself that there is something terribly wrong and you may never see her again?

viv said...

Oh hiya Di, you must have been writing at the same time as me.

I have always thought that one of the main motivations for this was to make huge amounts of money and perhaps Gerry has had to devote a little more of that to defending his image/and from the police than he originally planned.

When we were being told in the press that both Brian Kennedy and the Madeleine Fund were paying the monthly fees of Metodo 3 I started to think money laundering and I have not really changed my mind about that.

In UK SOCA only get involved in big cases involving serious and organised crime. ~They have been involved in this case from day one and strongly objected to Gerry's attempts to use the family courts to get hold of criminal intelligence against him.

So yes, his mortgage may well be covered now, the size of it just helped him to think this was all worthwhile/.

viv said...

Di, in relation to the Directors I have always tended to think that they can avoid being involved in any sort of fraud or corruption if they can clearly state, well we just did not know, we honestly believed the McCanns.

Early leavers were clearly not prepared to take that chance.

But when it came to the most recent three, I can imagine Gerry would have begged his own boss and brother to stay on board, but I think they must have reached the stage where they knew thisth was just plain criminal and staying any longer would tar them with the same brush. Given the big delay in them doing that, there must have been a pretty major development.

We cannot just assume that is from the police, it may be to do with the case against Goncalo or indeed the McCanns decision to further cash in when that failed, by writing a book. In short it becomes plain that whether it is suing someone or writing a book, or making a film, the McCanns care not where they cash in, just so long as they do. Many would find that highly immoral, not just criminal!

viv said...

I found it interesting that at the same time our own laws were being beefed up to better protect freedom of speech and make it more difficult for greedy lawyers like Carter Ruck, Goncalo won his appeal in Portugal with their Supreme Court adopting the same attitude.

These developments are clearly not good for Team McCann and have caused them to go back to their 2008 ideas of cashing in, books and films. They are so cynical and money bent it is impossible for any reasonable person to believe in them any longer.

Di said...

Hi Viv

Yes Gerry's brother leaving the fund imo is the most interesting. If anyone in my family were in trouble I would support them to the hilt. However, if I subsequently found out what I was doing was in fact illegal I would seriously think again.

Wizard said...

It was interesting watching Jo’s parents giving the interview this morning and watching how naturally they respond to one and other in a very unnatural situation. After Jo’s mother finished reading their statement her husband hugged her and said she did well. Very natural unlike others we know.

Significantly, in the statement Jo’s mother says, ‘something insignificant could trigger the killer to kill again.’ This flies in the face of what the police are saying by telling other women who live locally they are not in any more danger than they were before.

Just thinking over what we have been told about Jo’s murder I think it is highly likely the murder happened in the flat, hence her having no shoes on, keys left in apartment, no coat etc. The alleyway at the side of her flat leads up a narrow path then into the road. No room to back a car down there. Therefore, the killer would have to carry the body down the path and to a car in the road and they may not have been able to park directly outside. No one saw anything! Having placed the body in the car they went back for the pizza and cider?

The only reason I can see the pizza and drinks being missing is to conceal the fact that supper for two was laid out. Removal of the body from the flat, if in fact that is where Jo died, can only mean the killer thought her body being found there was likely to implicate them.

I think the killer is within a very narrow field of possible suspects. The police are currently checking Facebook friends but I can’t help feeling the killer is closer to home – why move the body otherwise.

viv said...

Hiya Di and Wiz

It is odd Di, that John who was so slavering in his interest in all matters related to the Fund has so belatedly left the fold.

I was never able to quite trust that man, it was that look of sheer delight that used to play across his lips when he spoke of the case in the early stages. He did not seem the least bit bothered by the loss of Madeleine to me. And so what can be so bad that he has finally had to call it a day with absolutely no comment being offered by him. Maybe that is all he could finally do for Gerry? Agree to remain silent?

Come what may it is but one of many devastating blows for Team McCann in more recent months. Goncalo winning is appeal may not have hit our press unfortunately, but Wikileaks and this did.

It still infuriates me to think of the McCanns just demanding tax free cash to support them and their "wider family". Clarence even requesting money got sent in brown envelopes, true he is not doing that now, there is clearly some evidence of them learning by their mistakes but that learning has just not been fast enough. Anyone can see through a big con in the end, it is just takes some a little longer.

Why should this couple be able to set up a limited company with money from the public that is for the own benefit as Clarence has so recently been forced to admit? A company limited by guarantee with a tax free status on most of the money it accrues, other than earned interest I believe. What other woman like Kate McCann, can just give up her job and then live off tax free riches? All in the name of a daughter she was a participant to disposing of. I am so pleased their luck is running out! Gerry even bought a car out of his tax free earnings of the back of poor little Madeleine. I do not refer to them as the gruesome twosome for no good reason. The police will have this couple taped, if, in the end, they can only get them for fraud it will be a massive case and cannot come soon enough for me.

viv said...

Wiz, when there is a killer on the loose the standard advice from police is to be very vigilant. In this particular case the police do seem to have downplayed the risk to the public.

I think they are caught between the devil and the deep. If they knew there some mad killer on the loose who they were simply not aware of and had not so far apprehended it would be downright irresponsible to suggest women are not in any greater danger.

I may be wrong but I think the comments we have, had been walking the tightrope in between trying to reassure the public on the one hand but on the other keeping their cards close to their chest and not admitting they actually know who the killer is and that his risk to the public has been completely neutralised. To do that, would of course be quite wrong as the police simply have no authority to label anyone a killer that is a matter for the court. I think people need to accept that in the McCann case also with demands that LP take the link of their webpage etc, to do so would be the same as pointing the finger directly at Kate and Gerry.

I do think your comments demonstrate you are on the right track, the geography for one thing. Everything points to one particular suspect really doesn't it! The one who has been doing a motor mouth McCann and getting his friends to let us all know he has some high fallutin lawyers on the case and he wants mega bucks, hummmm If there is anything left in his flat I hope the police continue until they can nail him, even if he does think he is very smart.

viv said...

Oh and Wiz, Jo's mum also said to do a mass DNA screening would be a waste of time... umm agreed!

I think they must be pretty clear who the killer is and it must be agony for them, waiting for a further and final arrest to take place.

viv said...

Ho hum, watch out Gerry, spin doctors like to cashin with a juicy book as well, mind you that is understandable, who? with any scruples would do the job of Campbell or Mitchell? As for Cherie Blair, could she not earn sufficient to pay for her luxy bed as a QC /part time circuit judge, what a yucky grasping freeloader of a woman!
From the Mail:
Cherie Blair tried to use taxpayers’ money to buy a £3,500 bed for her family’s Downing Street apartment a month after taking office.
The then-prime minister and his wife only backed down and agreed to pay for it themselves after details of the king-size Swedish-built bed emerged in newspapers.
The story is revealed in the latest instalment of the diaries of former Downing Street spin doctor Alastair Campbell.
In Power And The People – which covers in detail the first two years of the Labour government – Mr Campbell reveals he could not bring himself to tell Mr Blair he thought Cherie had ‘a problem with money’.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348456/Cherie-Blair-tried-use-taxpayer-cash-3-500-Swedish-bed.html#ixzz1BSU5a8Gx

viv said...

I see that with the advent of the Crime Watch filming ready for the broadcast on 26 Jan, police have now admitted that Jo had not eaten any of the pizza.

This does seem to coincide with her being attacked very shortly after entering her flat, given two separate witnesses heard screams at 9pm, she could not have been home more than mere minutes by that stage. Poor lady.

I think someone was lying in wait for her. Someone who had a key.

Wizard said...

The missing pizza and drinks

On entering the flat, Jo takes her coat off puts down the keys and shopping etc. Before she gets changed, she places the pizza in the oven. Sits down and takes her boots off and perhaps one sock. At this point either someone she knows is in the apartment with her or they let themselves in with their key or knock at the door and she invites them in.

Whatever happens now ends in her death. The killer cannot leave the pizza still in the oven the smoke would alert neighbours to something being amiss. They remove it from the oven and in the clean up take it away with them, along with the drinks to ensure no link is made between the possibility of supper for two being construed from the scene. They try to detract further from a link to the flat and her knowing the killer by removing the body to look as if it could be a stranger murder elsewhere or a stranger abduction gone wrong. Ah, I think we have been down this route before.

I think the killer is of one of three people.

viv said...

Wiz, I do not think the cider was removed from the flat.

Good point, the sock could have come off as she pulled her boot off.

If she was sat down struggling with her boots, she would be in an extremely vulnerable position if someone was already in the flat, waiting their moment to sneak up from behind her.

Di said...

Hi Viv & Wizard

The police say they have dna from saliva taken from Jo's body. I am assuming they have taken dna samples from all the people we know to have been questioned. I do not know how long these tests take to see if there is a match, do either of you?

viv said...

Hiya Di

and thanks I did not know they had saliva, presumably dripped as he stood over the body?

If it is in microscopic quantity perhaps just a few cells, I think we heard before how long low copy tests can take and Jeffries has been bailed to go back to the nick!

Forgive me for being a bit one tracked there, he is still my favourite candidate but then again the police seem to think the same.

viv said...

Di, I recall there was concern about the frozen state of the body and we were told this would hold up the post mortem on Jo. From reading this below, I am sure they were trying to do everything possible to prevent further damage to any DNA cells from her killer that were on her and her clothing.

Was the killer so clever he even knew that would help him?

I continue to think this case has many similarities to McCann including the difficulty in the preservation of relevant evidence sufficient to form charges.


Freezing can break DNA. The water inside the cell crystalizes during the freezing process. These sharp crystals expand in volume, tearing apart the cells and their contents. Unless it has some other protection, the DNA could be torn apart. Condensed DNA, especially in our "germ cells" (eggs and sperm), may have extra protection because it is wound up tightly around structural proteins. Below 0 degrees Celsius, no additional damage is done; it is the process of freezing that causes the damage. Usually some DNA survives freezing.

viv said...

Inconsistencies in a suspect's account would be more than enough to cause the police to believe it was him and also more than enough for a judge to order the police can detain him for further questioning. But inconsistences, although they inevitably lead to an inference of guilt are not and never can be sufficient to form any sort of prosecution case.

That I believe leads to a smug feeling of satisfaction from people like Jeffries and Gerry. "Prove it"!!

viv said...

This from the Mail seems to confirm that a private firm are still working on a ~"partial DNA sample" taken from Jo's body and they may have a result in days.

Detectives investigating the murder of architect Jo Yeates have called in a team of forensic experts which helped catch the killer of Rachel Nickell.
The specialist team was today examining a 'partial' DNA sample found on the 25-year-old's body after she was discovered strangled on Christmas Day.

DNA: Detectives investigating the killing of Jo Yeates, left, have called on scientists behind the conviction of the killer of Rachel Nickell who died in 1992
A huge police investigation has so far failed to lead to charges against any suspect and now detectives are said to be hopeful of a breakthrough 'within days'.
LGC Forensics, instrumental in the conviction of Robert Napper 12 years after he stabbed Miss Nickell to death on Wimbledon Common in 1992, took the sample from Miss Yeates' body.

A spokesman for the firm said: 'We are working on the Jo Yeates inquiry. We are carrying out tests on DNA samples. I cannot comment further.'
In 2005, the firm used controversial 'partial DNA' evidence to help convict factory worker Napper of the manslaughter of former model Miss Nickell, on the grounds of diminished responsibility.
Police have so far ruled out a review of their investigation 30 days after it began, having made just one arrest in that time.

Neighbour Chris Jefferies, 65, remains on bail following his arrest on December 30.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1347632/Jo-Yeates-murder-DNA-team-Rachel-Nickell-killing-conviction-join-investigation.html#ixzz1BVocQaZS

viv said...

The arrogant and bombastic comments put into the media by "friends" of Jeffries seem to have stopped.

I hope those "friends" do the decent thing and tell the police everything they know about this man, including his current behaviour and in line with the request from Jo's parents who need this case to be solved quickly for very obvious reasons. Their anguish must be very hard to bear as they are forced to just wait for some breakthrough. No one can really imagine how they must be feeling.

Wizard said...

Hi Viv,

A 32 year-old man was arrested this morning in the Jo Yeates case and is still being questioned by the police. I was just wondering the male friend she text asking him out for a drink whilst walking home on 17th December – do we know what age he is?

It’s interesting that the news editor of the Sunday Mirror is tweeting that a suitcase is missing from Jo’s flat (confirmed by the police) and this was the method of removing her from the flat. It is only him that is saying this as far as I can see.

Wizard said...

Just to update on my above post Sky are reporting the man arrested is Vincent Tabak who lives in the basement flat next door to Jo’s and he is also an architect. He lives underneath the other suspect on police bail Chris Jeffries.

viv said...

Thanks Wiz and what a great development!

People do need to now stop suggesting the bf had anything to do with it, see the further comments from the police again totally exonerating him. Since when did we hear any British Police force make such glowing comments about how helpful and supportive Team McCann have been, I ain't holding me flipping breath!

This new suspect does tie in with the witness account of a fit male hopping a fence and running across the road Christmas Eve, so where was the body stored?

viv said...

Man, 32, held in Jo murder inquiry
(UKPA) – 1 hour ago

Detectives have arrested a 32-year-old man on suspicion of murdering architect Joanna Yeates.

The suspect was detained in the early hours of Thursday after police investigating the 25-year-old's death uncovered fresh evidence.

Soon afterwards specialist search teams moved into the neighbouring flat to where Miss Yeates lived at 44 Canynge Road in Clifton, Bristol.

Dutch architect Vincent Tabak, 32, is registered as living at the address with his girlfriend.

Calls to his employers in Bath were referred to Avon and Somerset Police. The force has not named the suspect, who is being held at an undisclosed location.

Workers erected scaffolding and green tarpaulin at the rear of the substantial converted Victorian property. The screen covers the entrance to flat two, where Mr Tabak lived, and the rear of Miss Yeates's rented home. Police sealed off both ends of Canynge Road as officers in white forensic outfits arrived at the property.

Miss Yeates's father welcomed the latest development, which came almost five weeks after she disappeared. Speaking at the family home in Ampfield, Hampshire, David Yeates, 63, said he was "pleased" the police investigation was "moving forward".

He said: "We know as much as you do. We were told at 6am this morning that someone was arrested on suspicion of Jo's murder and their age."

Detective Chief Inspector Phil Jones, who is leading the inquiry, thanked Miss Yeates's family and boyfriend for their support.

He said: "I would like to thank the public for their continued support for the investigation and the information they have provided to us. I would also like to pay tribute to Jo's family and to Greg, who continue to be unfailing in their support to me and my team at what is an incredibly difficult and painful time for them."

Di said...

Hi Viv & Wizard

Viv thanks for filling me in re dna samples.

I had no idea a witness had seen someone jumping a fence.

It does make me wonder if Jefferies was telling the truth when he said he saw a man and a women with Jo, the arrested man lives with his girlfriend. Maybe that is why Jefferies phoned his neighbours telling them not to say anything as it would muddy the waters, or similar words.

I would imagine all the tenants were initially interviewed including Vincent Tabak and his girlfriend. Something must have suddenly come to light for his sudden arrest.

I never really had the boyfriend in the frame or lately even Jefferies, although he has not yet been cleared as far as I am aware. I was thinking more a close friend. However, I did not rule anyone out as you both know. I am afraid I have become very cynical since following the Madeleine McCann case, as I am sure many posters have. I am truly amazed at the lies and inconsistencies certain people can get away with.

I hope the police have the correct person this time, and Jo's family and boyfriend can get some sort of closure to grieve in peace.

viv said...

Hiya Di

Gosh! I am so sexist, I had not even thought of his girlfriend being involved, I was thinking more in terms of he hid the body near the quarry or Jeffries was involved with him. But quite why he would hide the body near to the quarry and then move it to the side of the road I do not know other than it was placed there to be further removed to a better hiding place by car, but he or they got seen.

I wonder if the something that has suddenly come to light is the results of DNA testing. That could have been a reason to bail Jeffries pending those results, maybe they match the new man and not him? Or maybe the police feel they are both involved. There seem a lot of possibilities at this stage.

What is different is the arrest seems to being dealt with more quietly by the police this time, could there be more of a certainty due to forensics they now have, that they have, as you say, got the right man?

It is amazing how many male killers/rapists there have been where thepartner/ wife simply did not know what they were getting up to. What intrigues me in this case is there always seemed to be a certainty this crime was committed by someone right by her, but the evidence has always pointed that way. So maybe this arrest could have been just a bit quicker? I do not know, they have to have reasonable grounds to arrest someone, presumably they did with Jeffries, the inconsistencies in his story but not with suspect no 2 they had to wait until they got more evidence. I am always loathe to criticise the police, it is a thankless and difficult job, so reliant upon team work. Forensic scientists can be the slow ones in the team, (is that some kind of back handed metaphor:).

viv said...

I still wonder whether the body was stored at that house (somewhere, it is big!) prior to being moved several days later.

The police have very systematically tore it to bits really and that continues.

I hope there is not some freezer lurking. It is interesting this can damage DNA evidence. It was bitterly cold Christmas Eve.

viv said...

Did the police sneak in some victim recovery dogs without the press pack noticing?

viv said...

Hang on, the police arrested Vincent at 6 am but not from Canynge Road :

The arrest is believed to have taken place at a converted Victorian terraced house in Aberdeen Road, Clifton.

Two idea spring to mind, Canynge Road mansion block had to be vacated due to police activity

or following the further appeal from the parents, girlfriend reported Vincent to the police.

He must have been sleeping at that other address given the time, did he and gf have a fallout?

viv said...

Politce have also searched the other address from where he was arrested according to Martin Brunt, Sky, I am sure he is right.

I have just put Vincent's Cv on the post at the top, clearly a very educated man to PhD level - I found this little extract interesting:

Vincent Tabak’s Specialties:
- People flow analysis

Wizard said...

Hi Viv and Di,

Tabak certainly looks a more likely candidate for the murder. I would have thought he was someone who Jo would have felt comfortable with – an architect like herself, fit looking, a neighbour and living with his girlfriend. She would think him completely safe.

The landlord did say he saw her with two other people could this have been Tabak and his girlfriend on the night of 17th.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

I agree Tabak may be a more likely candidate for actually murdering her, in that he would easily overpower her. But the police are still saying that Jefferies is a suspect and I still feel he is somehow involved in this. Particularly given Tabak absented himself abroad. I just find it hard to believe the body had lain in that position on Longwood Lane all the time.

I notice the gf of Tabak is said to be "helping police with their inquiries". Tabak was in the process of moving from the address he shared with her, neighbours saw him taking cases away. I wonder if, when you have done something terrible, it reaches the point where you just know the net is closing. The rows develop with the gf, he forlornly moves to another address, obviously and belatedly, seeking to distance himself from the crime.

So was she actually involved in Jo's murder and concealment or is she telling the police everything she knows to help the police build a case against her man?

There was no sexual abuse of Jo, we are told?

viv said...

What is strikingly odd and no doubt makes it much more difficult in this case is their two suspects are both highly educated men.

viv said...

ah but now we seem to be told that actually she may well have been sexually assaulted and rejected those advances of course.

Joanna Yeates murder: DNA traces on body may show she was sexually assualted
Traces of DNA found on the body of the murdered landscape architect Joanna Yeates suggest for the first time that she could have been sexually assaulted, according to police sources.

Partial DNA profiles were found on the 25 year-old's breasts, stomach and jeans which are thought to be from her attacker's saliva.

They could rule out suspects but may not be sufficient to prove that an individual is guilty.

Up until now the police had said that there was no indication that Miss Yeates had been sexually attacked although they said it was possible that the motive of the killer was sexual.

A source told The Sun: "The fact that DNA samples have been found on her bare body could well mean whoever murdered Jo tried to sexually assault her before hand."

A 32-year-old man who lived next door to Miss Yeates and her boyfriend was arrested early on Thursday morning.

viv said...

Vincent Tabak was arrested by police at the house of a friend a mile from the flat he shared with his girlfriend in Clifton, Bristol.

Neighbours said that Mr Tabak had not been at his flat since Miss Yeates's murder. Others said they had seen him collecting belongings from the property in Canygne Road this week.

Teams of forensic officers were examining Mr Tabak's basement flat, which used to be connected by an interior door – since blocked up – to the property where Miss Yeates lived with her boyfriend, Greg Reardon.

Mr Tabak's British girlfriend, Tanja Morson was helping police with their inquiries.

Police were focusing their investigation on the garden at the back of the large converted building, which they had draped with a tarpaulin.

Mr Tabak, who has lived in Britain for three years, was the second man to be arrested in connection with Miss Yeates's death after her landlord, Chris Jefferies, was questioned and released on bail last month.

Last night, police said the landlord remained a suspect.

The apparent breakthrough in the case came more than a month after Miss Yeates went missing after walking home from a city centre pub on Dec 17.

The 25-year-old's frozen body was found dumped on a remote country lane a few miles outside Bristol on Christmas Day.


viv said...

I am pleased to note that Andy Coulson has apparently felt the pressure upon him as a result of allegations concerning his former post at the News of the World has forced him to resign, it is distracting from his job, working for Mr Cameron. Oh, that is just too bad...

Wizard said...

The police questioning of Tabak appears to be taking the same route as Jo’s landlord with extensions of time being requested by them. Again the police could request a further time extension, charge him, release him on police bail or eliminate him from this investigation.

I just wonder if the DNA count is enough to establish an identity and if so whether it’s his.

Recently in the police praises were the parents of Jo and the boyfriend. With the boyfriend’s alibi I still cannot get my head round how the police are so certain his alibi is watertight. The journey to Sheffield in that type of weather is only an approximation of time it could have taken – nothing certain. The people he was staying with might be covering for him and certainly could not have eyeballed him 24/7 during his stay with them. I just wonder how the police can appear so certain he is not involved - but it does appear they are.

Wizard said...

Viv - don't get me started on Cameron.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

I would imagine the police have a pretty clear time frame for death from the evidences collected and witnesses accounts. When taking this together with mobile phone triangulation I think they would know that Greg was just not in the right place at that time.

When there are two excellent suspects in the frame, I wonder why you stick to him?

What we have been told about the DNA evidence, which is clearly not the best they could hope for, is that it can rule people out but is not of itself sufficient to rule someone in. For intelligence purposes it probably does so, but for a watertight case, they need more. No case will really stand on DNA alone anyway.

I wonder if Jeffries has been ruled out by the DNA evidence but not Tabak? Given it does now appear she was sexually assaulted that does not of course absolutely rule Greg out, men do rape their partners, but it seems less likely than Tabak, to me.

I think the police problem is the body had been frozen and the DNA evidence damaged with that and both the two principal suspects are clearly very intelligent men who are not giving anything to the police - interviewing Karen Matthews and Co must have been a pushover. Bailing suspects when they are still not quite there does sometimes happen, particularly with a clever defendant. They will be constantly seeking advice from the CPS as to whether they are now at the stage where they can charge, presumably that stage has not been reached so far. I think it is likely both Tabak and Jefferies have given unhelpful no comment interviews. In short the police have to get the evidence neither are going to hand it to them.

Whilst Tabak is a much more likely suspect I still have this feeling Jefferies has something to do with it, perhaps assisting an offender? Tabak was not there Christmas Eve, in fact he was not there at all from the 19th - was Jo's body really just laying there right on edge of that lane with dogs walkers etc all that time? I just do not think so. Maybe it was meant to look like she got brought there from somewhere else, to put distance and time from the actual incident.

I suppose I can go on about the obvious intellect of Tabak, but nevertheless his behaviour has been pretty classic "suspect". Absented himself abroad two days later, and did not return to his home address. There again what was his gf saying about the prospect of him doing so?

viv said...

Wiz, maybe I should not get started on Cameron and Coulson either, but the latter was Clarence Mitchell's boss I believe, or was it just a temporary post?

Suffice to say I am keenly reading everything The Guardian has to offer and if the fallout spreads like a nuclear bomb across some of these characters it would be true to say I will be rejoicing. Let us hope London Met now start to behave properly.

viv said...

Anyway dear Clarence seems to be looking out for his boss with some garbled comments on BBC radio (they do not want him on the telly anymore).

Not that he can prove it he says, but anyway, he is going to the police with claims that twice in 2008 someone was trying to access his mobile company for information. He can assume that was journalists, not sure how? I mean maybe it was the police, Clarence dear.

So what he seems to be doing is suggesting that long after Coulson resigned, these dirty deeds continued. Quite a clever bit of spin there really Clarence with a view to protecting dear old Coulson, and really cleverly, even ramping up some much needed publicity for the old has been celebs, Kate and Gerry McScam.

I wonder, has Clarence been promised a percentage from the millions the book will take, all of which will be scrupulously used by Kate Better start writing your own then Clarence, that will surely do a bit better?

Di said...

Hi Viv & Wizard

The reports I have read so far state that the police are pretty sure Jo was killed shortly after she arrived home on the 17th. The police also feel Jo's body was hidden, possibly in the suitcase that is missing, and left by the side of the road on or just before Christmas Day. Vincent Tabak left for Holland on the 19th Dec and only returned very recently, so who moved Jo's body to its final resting place?

Di said...


With Coulson now gone let's hope Clarence has not set his sights on the job.

viv said...

Hiya Di,

I think you have crucially and succinctly hit the nail right on the head there, in comes Jeffries, perhaps?

That house is starting to seem like the House of Horrors, I fear its former high value will have been dramatically affected!

As for Clarence getting Coulson's job, I am sure he has the erm, thinking of the right word, erm, well anyway, the ego to feel he could go for it and do some great scams and coverups for the tories which he would feel Cameron would be delighted with. The trouble is Cameron may take the view the public would be all too wise to the antics of Mr Clarence Mitchell and just how sincere that man is when he utters his utter, erm lux.

There have been murder cases where the suspect has been repeatedly bailed by the police, even told very clearly he is no longer a suspect, until he got that final knock on the door. This will be music to Wiz's ears!

I just hope that the police can actually get to the charging stage and do not have to let the killer loose until the stage where they have more, which can sometimes be literally years. Just ask the McCanns, I mean they need to keep fundraising.

viv said...

JM has put up a post telling us, well according to The Sun, not JM, of course that Maddie has been erm well yes guys there has been another sighting.

All I could do on JM was rip the proverbial, I mean, I could almost swear and you know that is just not like me :-)))

viv said...

Oh huh I have been waiting for this sighting, Maddie with the Arabs, following Kate explaining why we had an image of Maddie looking about twelve with brown skin. To think Team McScam spend a year dreaming this stuff up before it gets released to The Sun readers (Gerry's favourite). It is all fantasy stuff, I have never known such a fair skinned child go that shade of brown whatever country they are living in, and I have never known a 7 year old look twelve either. Then again, I have never known a nearly four year old look two.

I have to say that reading some of the above comments has been extremely amusing, I mean what can you say? If they stashed Maddie in Dubai just bring her home and give her to Justice Hogg and stop messing about, oh right the book and the millions they are going to make. What? Like the million they got off Goncalo. Clarence had to admit they spent quite a bit of dosh there speculating to accumulate, serves them right!

What is it with these witnesses of sightings for Team McScam anyway, did none of the "businessmen" (I know what a business) have the nous to think aha, I just saw the most famous missing kid in the world, I will ring the police this very minute. I mean, why do they have to wait for months to do that? Weird or what?

Someone above said Liverpudlians were burning The Sun in the streets, what a great idea!

viv said...

Kate is a disaffected Liverpudlian who refuses to follow the trend. With her own copies of The Sun, she likes to get the twins to help her iron and frame them, making sure they know how to spell Madeleine, not Maddie in the process. What a great mom!

viv said...

Oh by the way Wiz and Di, and I kid you not, I drove past Glenfield Hospital today and a few miles further down the road, I saw this wrinkled man rushing along in a blue cagoule type thing on his push bike, it looked just like Gerry McScam. It was about 12 noon. Not having the Saturdays for the kids thing anymore then?

When I heard they set out a special day to spend time with their kids, Saturdays I actually thought oh what great parents. But there again, by this stage, they had lost their babysitter.

viv said...

Police in Portugal now believe Mrs McCann killed Madeleine and her husband helped cover up the crime, hiding the body temporarily before disposing of it at least 25 days later using the hire car.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481163/Portuguese-police-tapping-McCanns-phone-calls-emails.html#ixzz1Bo9qMXQo

Interesting words from the Daily Mail, September 2007. It has to be conceded, murderers do sometimes temporarily store a body prior to getting rid of it. It has even been known for a paranoid killer, terrified of that knock on the door to move his /her victim several times.

viv said...

Have just put a new post up, Tabak was charged with the murder of Jo, yesterday police have announced.

RIP Jo xx