11 Aug 2009


And so I wonder, who paid for one to be installed in the home of Kate and Gerry McCann?

Baby P: Peter's killers named for the first time as Tracey Connelly and Steven Barker
The killers of Baby Peter will be given new identities at taxpayers’ expense and lifetime protection from the threat of exposure after being named publicly for the first time as Tracey Connelly and Steven Barker.

By Caroline Gammell and Martin BeckfordPublished: 11:59PM BST 10 Aug 2009
2 of 2 Images

Tracey Connelly and Steven Barker subjected Baby Peter to an appalling ordeal that left him with 50 injuries, including a broken back Photo: METROPOLITAN POLICE

Baby Peter, who suffered more that 50 injuries in his short life, including a broken back, eight fractured ribs and 15 mouth wounds. Photo: PA
The boy's mother and her boyfriend can finally be identified more than two years after the toddler’s death following the lifting of a court order that prevented their names and photographs being published.
The 17-month-old boy suffered an agonising death in their squalid home after months of abuse. The pair subjected him to an appalling ordeal that left him with 50 injuries, including a broken back.

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Baby P: the battle to name his mother Tracey Connelly and her boyfriend Steven Barker
Connelly, 28, who admitted causing or allowing Baby Peter’s death, could be released from jail in as little as three years.
She has already been placed in solitary accommodation in prison to protect her from fellow prisoners, such is the level of the notoriety she has gained since full details of her son’s treatment were disclosed.
It is almost certain that under human rights laws she will be granted lifelong anonymity once she is freed.
By claiming that she had the right to a life free from vigilante attacks or intrusion by the media, she would be given a new name, moved to a home equipped with panic buttons and provided with round-the-clock police protection for the rest of her life at an estimated cost to the taxpayer of £1 million a year.
The same protection may also be given to Barker, 33, who could be free in 12 years.
It can be disclosed today that he is the brother of Jason Owen, 37 — Connelly’s lodger, who was also convicted over Peter’s death. He was the only one of the three accused to be publicly named at the end of their trial last November.
Protection orders are often granted to those who become notorious for crimes they commit against children. These include Mary Bell, who killed two boys when she was 11; Maxine Carr, who provided a false alibi for Ian Huntley after he murdered the Soham schoolgirls; and the schoolboy killers of James Bulger.
Philip Davies, the Conservative MP for Shipley, was angered by the public cost of protecting Connelly in the future. “She had absolutely no concern for the human rights of Baby P, so it’s a bit much to expect anyone to fall over themselves protecting her rights,” he said.
“It will probably stick in the throat of most taxpayers to stump up cash for her. What she did was hideous and she should face the consequences of that.
“It’s a prime example of how human rights of criminals are put before those of victims — in this case a defenceless baby.”
Claude Knights, the director of Kidscape, a children’s charity, said the killers had “destroyed faith in humanity”.
“I don’t feel society should spend the hundreds and thousands it would cost [to give them new identities],” he said. “I would prefer it to be spent on child protection.”
Harry Fletcher, the assistant general secretary of Napo, the probation union, suggested that criminals who needed protection because of the nature of their offences should be forced to help pay for it, but admitted: “The vast majority of these people are on benefits.”
Lynne Featherstone, the Liberal Democrat MP whose north London constituency covers part of Haringey, where Peter died, said it was “very unfortunate” that their notoriety meant that they would receive protection.
“One has to hope that the indeterminate sentences mean that they will serve a very long time,” she said.
New details of the suffering that Peter endured can also be disclosed for the first time as well as further examples of how Haringey council and other authorities failed to protect him. These include:
How Connelly had three other children — two of whom were placed on the “at risk” protection register alongside Peter by social services — but none was taken away from her until the boy died.
She was pregnant with her fifth child, her first with Barker, when Peter died and gave birth while on remand.
Social workers failed to realise that Barker was living with the family and abusing Peter for nine months before his death, despite repeated visits from the authorities.
The authorities also failed to notice when Barker’s brother Owen, a member of the National Front, moved in with his 15-year-old runaway girlfriend five weeks before Peter died.
Peter was left in his cot for hours on end, was treated worse than a dog, had his finger­tips sliced off with a craft knife, his nails pulled out with pliers and every scrap of his clothing was covered in blood.
Haringey council tried to prevent Connelly and Barker from being named until 2026 to protect Peter’s siblings but a High Court judge disagreed, saying the “boil must be lanced”.
Peter, who could be named only as Baby P until earlier this year, was born in Tottenham, north London, in March 2006 but his father left home soon after. Connelly began living with Barker in November of that year.
Peter was subjected to horrific cruelty at their hands. He was placed on Haringey’s at-risk register but social workers and doctors were duped into thinking his injuries were accidental and he was not taken into care. His mother was arrested twice for assault but was not charged.
Owen moved into the house with his girlfriend in June 2007. Peter died two months later after suffering a broken back and more than 15 injuries to his head. Connelly admitted causing or allowing his death, while Barker and Owen were found guilty of the same charge. None was found guilty of murder.
After the trial at the Old Bailey, Sharon Shoesmith, Haringey’s director of children’s services, refused to apologise for her department’s failure to protect Peter. She was sacked amid public anger at the crime and the authorities’ mistakes, which was heightened by the fact that Haringey council had been criticised over the death of Victoria Climbié seven years previously.
Three council managers and a social worker were sacked by Haringey after being suspended on full pay for five months. They appealed against their dismissals, while Mrs Shoesmith lodged a claim against the council with an employment tribunal.
In May, Connelly was jailed for a minimum of five years; Barker a minimum of 12; and Owen a minimum of three. However, Connelly has already been in jail for two years since her son’s death and could therefore be released in 2012.
Barker has subsequently been sentenced to life for the rape of a two-year-old girl, with a minimum of 10 years. That runs concurrently.
Andrew Flanagan, the chief executive of the NSPCC, said the focus should be on Peter, the “helpless victim” and not his killers. “We all must do everything in our power to stop more children dying in such horrific ways,” he said.
Claire Kober, the leader of Haringey council, said its focus was on making “major improvements” to child protection services.
“It is our top priority and we will do all we can to ensure that children are safe,” she said. “Baby Peter’s death was a tragedy that could and should have been prevented.
“We have apologised unreservedly for the shortcomings in our child protection service, which failed him so badly.”


Soda said...

NO NO NO!!!!

Enough is Enough of this nonsense...

Baby Peter had no second chance and had no power to stop the cruelty shown towards him in his very short life.

The Brothers who abused him should rot in hell and the Mother who did nothing to help him and may have even given him a few whacks herself should rot in hell...

They never thought about Baby Peters rights and they therefore should loose any human rights they think they are entitled to.

Lynch mobs are wrong more thugs with a chance to kick others but what will happen when all the money has been spent to protect these vile people? They will be free to Marry have children and abuse all over again this can not and should not happen.

Give them a choice...

They can leave jail with no protection no change of identity and live out the rest of their lives.

Or they can beg to be allowed to stay in jail with other scum that have the same mentality as they do working to pay for their keep...

A few years locked up for when it comes down to it MURDER of a Baby is not enough and to reward them with a new life is sick.

let the money be spent on better social services and police not on the scum of the earth who think they can do as they please.

What kind of message does that give all the other sick people out there???

Di said...

Hi all

As we all know, this case is tragic beyond words.

I think several people were at fault, the social workers firstly but also the Doctors who dismissed many injuries and failed to notice the more serious ones. Had these been picked up on, Peter would have been removed immediately and his life possibly saved.


I understand your feelings completely, but unfortunately just like the Bulger case these criminals are entitled to their human rights and protection at tax payers expense. New identities given and relocation if necessary. We might not like it, but unfortunately we have no choice.

I cannot take credit for this information Hope, it was Viv who kindly explained it to me when I commented on the Bulger case to her a while back, asking why we as tax payers were having to foot the bill.

I agree with your statement, let the money be spent on better social services and police not the scum of the earth.

mandarinn said...

Hi VIV Soda and all
I hope they don't perform on them anesthectic surgery...and they can be known as the evil murders they are everywhere they try to hide.
Only look them make me sick

Di said...

Hi Mandarinn

Good to see you again.

I am sure we all feel the same. What Peter suffered is beyond belief. I don't think they will get an easy ride though. When they are released they will always be looking over their shoulders I am sure.

viv said...

Hiya Hope

Sometimes it does make you wonder if the justice system has gone mad and lost all sense of direction.

They commit the most appalling crime so get treated to a life of expensive anonimity when they get released.

I did not actually have a problem with Maxine Carr being given a degree of protection because in a way I had sympathy for her. I do not think she realised just quite how dreadful Huntley was and I do believe she was controlled by and in great fear of him, particularly when she began to realise what he had done.

The fact that this lot could not be convicted of murder should not change the sentence they got, given the terrible abuse of Baby P that they were responsible for. That means they are a grave danger to be around any child and they should have been locked up for a very lengthy period for public protection purposes.

It still seems that one little child's life does not mean so much to judges. Maybe they just think oh well they were such awful low class people, what can one expect. I think we expect proper sentencing that reflects the gravity of this crime, properly punishes them for what they did and sends out a clear message to any other who behave in such a dreadful way.

viv said...

Hiya Di and Mandarrin

Earlier on I posted on 3 As pointing out that Kate and Gerry have the right to a fair trial, rather than a trial in the Court of Tony Bennett and that he has a lot of prejudices aside from the wish to prejudice their fair trial.

I received a "formal warning" for that and just got logged off as I was reading on there, so presume I am now banned.

Maybe I am better off out of there!


viv said...

Apart from the obvious importance of the above post I did want to flag up the issue of the police fitting panic buttons in peoples' homes who are suspected of or convicted of crime for their protection.

I wonder if the Leicester tax payers had to pay for the McCanns out of the Council Tax?

They clearly have the means to provide their own but presumably this provides a direct link to the police.

The issue of deliberate and direct harassment of the McCanns is however a serious one and one which none of us can condone.

Kate, Gerry and the twins should, in a civilised society, be entitled to live in their own home without fear and none of us should do anything at all to prejudice that important right.

The police do have a duty to protect them from harm, I cannot condone the conduct of anyone who seeks to take the law into their own hands, but clearly it is a vexed issue when the public have to pay out for such people. That I suppose is something we have to accept, in the case of the above also, but I do think the answer here was they should have spent a great deal more time in custody than what they actually are doing.

viv said...

Kate McCann screamed from the BALCONY 'they've taken her', claims new witnessLast updated at 16:59 09 November 2007

Add to My Stories A new witness who was the first to see Kate McCann moments after she realised her daughter Madeleine had disappeared has given a dramatically different account of what happened that night.

A waiter at the Portuguese holiday complex where the family were staying said instead of running back to the tapas bar where she was dining with her husband Gerry and friends, Kate McCann raised the alarm from the balcony of their apartment.
The Portuguese man said that instead of running back to the tapas bar where the McCanns and their friends were dining Kate McCann screamed: "They've taken her, they've taken her, they've taken our little girl."
This version of events contrasts dramatically with the account friends of the McCanns have given.
Scroll down for more...
Suspicion: Police insist Kate McCann's first words when she discovered Madeleine was missing were 'They've taken her'
McCanns may sue Portuguese police for £1m if Madeleine investigation is closed
Madeleine: Changes in evidence from Tapas Nine could 'dramatically change investigation'

It has previously been claimed that the 39-year-old GP raised the alarm when she ran back to the restaurant on 3 May shouting: "Madeleine's gone, Madeleine's gone."
Detectives leading the case into the four-year-old's disappearance have always insisted her first words were "they've taken her" but have only today revealed she screamed these words from the balcony of the family's holiday apartment at the Ocean Club in the Portuguese town of Praia da Luz.
According to the Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias, detectives in the Policia Judiciaria ? Portugal's criminal investigation department ? are looking particularly closely at the new evidence.
They are understood to view this as suspicious because it indicates that Mrs McCann had already ruled out the possibility of Madeleine wandering off, and regard it as possible evidence that she was already engaged in a cover-up.
But friends of the couple have always insisted Mrs McCann reacted with such horror that they are convinced she could not have faked it.
They re-interviewed at least three Ocean Club workers ?a receptionist and two waiters at the tapas restaurant last week.
The waiter is reported to have told colleagues Mrs McCann was in "a state of panic". Mr McCann and the seven friends dining with the couple then came running out to see what had happened.

They also insist that both the child's parents were so distraught it would have been impossible for them to have killed their child several hours earlier.
The Portuguese police are also looking the 14 text messages Gerry McCann sent at dinner shortly before his daughter's disappearance.
This development comes as it was revealed that the couple, declared suspects in their daughter's disappearance in September, could sue the Portuguese police for failure to find their daughter.
The couple could sue for an estimated £1million if the investigation is closed, it was reported.

viv said...

Odd really when you consider that in her witness statement to the police the following day Kate McCann claimed to the police that the rear door was left ajar for her to go check her children.

So the natural and obvious assumption you would immediately make is Maddie wandered off to find mummy, not "they have taken her".

Even more odd given that Alex Woolfall PR troubleshooter for Mark Warner holiday company wrote in The Times, that Kate was telling him she was sure that Maddie had just wandered off and maybe some kind soul took her in. It was only the following week, he claims, the McCann started to insist on an abduction. Someone is telling lies and given the varying and conflicting accounts of Kate McCann it is not hard to see where the police were coming from in believing that she was immediately staging a stranger abduction of Madeleine. Indeed so was Gerry, telling all his relatives Maddie had been "abducted by a gang of Portuguese paedophiles" according to one witness.

I think it pays to recall just how bad the case against them is for being involved in the disappearance of their daughter. But I still say it is wrong to try and insist that case is a killing in the apartment, that just cannot be clearly stated from the evidence that we have.

viv said...


Baby P and the power of the internet

The internet told us the identity of Baby Peter's parents months ago – some fear the online 'mob', but it only reflects society

o Charlie Beckett
o guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 11 August 2009 12.37 BST
o Article history

It wasn't the Sun that did it. It was the social networkers. The mainstream press is only today telling us the names of the parents of murdered toddler "Baby Peter". The internet told us months ago. Normally, this would be a cause of rejoicing for web enthusiasts who celebrate its contribution to free expression. But was this digital disclosure or mob mis-rule?

Some people now fear that the internet mob is on the warpath, waving digital pitchforks and brandishing flaming cyber torches. Facebook groups have, in effect, forced the courts to allow mainstream media to disclose the names of the parents of Baby Peter. No doubt those same cyber vigilantes will insist on an online and even offline lynching the moment they leave prison.

This is a difficult case where the popular media should not get too pious. The tabloids would love to have named Tracey Connelly and Baby Peter's stepfather, Steven Barker, earlier, but they would have been hit by legal action from the courts.

Of course, it is illegal to publish information restricted by a court order even if you are an ordinary citizen or Facebook user but it is much harder to prosecute. The online individual has no institutional reputation or editorial budget to lose.
But once a fact hits the internet it can never be hid again. One estimate is that 500,000 people were on forums discussing the case as the judge attempted to recruit a jury. This raises the issue of prejudice as well as harm to the other siblings involved in the case. But the fact is that we shall have to learn to live with this and efforts should be directed at reducing mob anger not trying to bottle it up.

At my thinktank, Polis, at the LSE we have been holding a series of high-level seminars on Chatham House rules with senior legal figures on these issues. It is clear that the legal system simply does not know how to put the digital genie back in the mainstream media bottle. This may be a good thing overall.

We saw in the Madeleine McCann case how a sizable section of public opinion was ignored by the mainstream media. It then goes underground or online and assumes even more irrational and aggressive tendencies.

Overall, I am sure that it is better that we have the internet space to put uncomfortable and even illegal facts in the pubic domain. No one complained when a blogger forced the Damian McBride story into the open.
But can it hinder a fair trial? Well, in America the unfettered press has not reduced justice to a joke. Although few people in the UK want a similar free-for-all, I think that the internet means we have to look at relaxing restrictions for all journalists.

In the Baby P case, I think that Mr Justice Coleridge got it about right in an impossible situation. Of course, people wanted a name to put to the anonymous horror. It's not terribly liberal but I understand that it is part of the public process of justice being seen to be done. But the siblings needed to be found homes before that could happen.

The internet only reflects society. If some of what it shows us is unpleasant then it must not be ignored. The challenge is to take the debate online and adjust our institutions to cope with openness and disclosure. Ultimately, that has to be a good thing.

What is certain is that the internet and the many vengeful online groups will see to it that Connelly and Barker's infamy lives on. The paradox though is that this makes it even more likely that the authorities will have to spend millions of taxpayers' money on protecting them when they are finally released from prison.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... er-parents

viv said...

Wow, I never noticed this before, Rachel Mamphilly says the shutters were closed over the McCanns rear patio door and in order to check the kids they creeked it up again. Simply extraordinary. I wonder why we did not see Gerry and Mat do that on Cutting Edge, just walked through an already ajar patio door.

The window shutters of the McCann’s apartments were closed. The patio door that they used to enter the apartment also had its shutter closed. In order to enter they had to raise the shutter.

see the full version of what Rachel has to say at:


Wizard said...

Morning All,

Apparently Gerry and Mat touched the shutters as did Fiona Payne’s mother Diane. In her statement she said she tried the shutters after the alarm went up.

Well that’s at least 3 people we know of but the only finger prints found were Kate’s.


Wizard said...

In the Baby P case so many professionals were involved.

It seems to me common sense amongst some professionals has gone out the window and been replace by ticking boxes on forms to meet bureaucratic targets.

Keep the paper work up to date – job done.

The lack of practical help is highlighted time and time again in the local press on Haringey Social Services shortcomings.

The Baby P case is an extreme example of what happens every day in this borough and I’m sure up and down the country.

Monster deviants like the mother and boyfriend of Baby P will always exist in this World - it is up to social service to step in, wake up and take their rose tinted glassed off.

One good practical action imo is worth a hundred pieces of paper in a file

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

Rachel is NOT referring to the shutter on the bedroom window here, she is referring to the shutter on the patio door!!

She is suggesting it was left open but the shutter was closed down over it and each time they went to check the kids the shutter had to be raised!!!

Wizard said...

Hi Viv - thanks for the clarification.

Soda said...

Hi All...

I cant help thinking the world has gone mad... I am a huge supporter of Human Rights and a fully paid up member of Amnesty International but all the hype about Baby Peter's killers is really making my blood boil...

I read on line somewhere it would cost £150 million to protect them (cant see how it will cost that much but who am I to argue?)...

If they need protection fair enough but build a place for all these pieces of scum and give them the choice remain locked up or take your chances...

The second an adult lay's a hand on a child and take away the childs Human Rights or worse their life they have given up any of their own and should expect nothing for the future except hardship and loss of freedom.

It is Credit Crunch Time and there are 100s of thousands of people out there that never put a foot wrong in life and love and respect people. Some are struck down with illness or the loss of a child and cant work. Let the money go to help people who need it and would give their own time or money to help someone else...


viv said...

Seems like disagreeing with Tony Bennett does get you banned, that may exlain the reduction in numbers! :

Post subject: Re: a open letter to the forum
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:10 am

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:36 am
Posts: 2526

I was banned by Stevo once, and Bren got me back on, it was ridiculous.

I diagreed with something Tony Bennett said and agreed with Cabot Frio.

Immediate Banning Order.

Brenda controlled this sort of behaviour.

"whoever she's with she'll be giving them their tuppenceworth"

viv said...

Hiya Hope

Whilst I cannot condone any member of the public who is free in the community, either suspected of serious crime (Kate and Gerry) or having served their sentence, being subjected to any form of public vigilanteeism or harassment and do accept the police need to protect them from people who take the law into their own hands, the fundamental point for me is the short periods of imprisonment handed out for the killers of Baby P. This was a horrendous case and it would be much cheaper to keep them in prison, where they belong, than protect them in the community. I would have thought that exemplary sentences were appropriate in this case, notwithstanding the failings of authorities to protect. That is a bit like trying to say Goncalo did not find Madeleine and trying to blame him. They did fail in their duty to Baby P, but that does not excuse the behaviour of his killers.

viv said...

For killing Baby P and raping a 2 year old girl, a total of 12 years, less perhaps, parole. That just cannot be right!

Di said...

Hi all


I can't believe you have been banned from 3A's there will be no posters left at this rate and no debate.

12 Years is a joke, was that the maximum that could be given or is this the sentence the Judge thinks is fair. Steven Barker is always going to be a danger to children and should be locked up for as long as possible.

viv said...

Hiya Di

I have long been of the view that the board is not actually a vehicle for free speech, and it is odd to suggest that TB complete with all of his own hangups, bookwriting, harassment and prejudices has very much to do with justice!

You can see from many comments that people do post they are afraid to state what they actually feel and that is really unfortunate given it is still a big site.

Both of the crimes carried a possible life sentence and also the possibility to extend any sentence on public protection purposes. I think the judge was overly lenient and the prosecution should have apealed the sentence given. It is an absolute travesty IMO.

viv said...

They DID get indeterminate sentences, and he can only be considered for parole after 12 years so that is not as bad as I thought and the AG has considered whether the judge was overly lenient, not that I agree with her!

viv said...

Tom Rayner, Home Affairs producer

The jail sentences handed down to three people involved in the death of Baby P, now known as Peter, will not be reviewed, following a decision by the Attorney General.

Baby Peter had suffered dozens of serious injuries

Baroness Scotland had been considering whether to refer the sentences given to the trio to the Court of Appeal for being 'unduly lenient'.

But she has now announced there was 'no realistic prospect' that the sentences would be increased.

Her decision comes on the day the 32-year old boyfriend of Baby P's mother, who cannot be named for legal reasons, launched an attempt to overturn his convictions for rape and causing or allowing Peter's death.

His lawyers have now lodged papers appealing against both convictions and both sentences with the Court of Appeal.

Baby Peter was 17 months old when he died, despite being on Haringey Council's child protection register. He had suffered a broken back and more than 40 serious injuries during prolonged domestic violence.

Baby P's mother will almost certainly not be free in five years. In fact, unlike most prisoners she will be seen as a 'life prisoner' in the eyes of the prison and probation service.

Home Affairs producer Tom Rayner explains what the sentence means

Last month, his mother pleaded guilty to causing or allowing her son's death and was given an indeterminate sentence with a minimum tariff of five years.

Her boyfriend was given a 12 year tariff for the 'major role' he played in Peter's death, as well as a life sentence for raping a two-year-old girl.

The couple's lodger, Jason Owen, 37, from Bromley, south-east London, received an indefinite sentence with a minimum term of three years for failing to take steps to save the little boy.

At the conclusion of the trial, there was public anger at the perceived 'leniency' of the sentences.

NSPCC chief executive Andrew Flanagan said at the time: "We are disappointed. It raises the question of how bad the abuse has to be before offenders get a longer time in prison".

Baroness Scotland said she had reviewed the law and relevant sentencing guidelines before deciding against asking the Court of Appeal to look at increasing the tariffs.

Attorney General Baroness Scotland

She said: "It was clear to me that the judge, who had heard all of the evidence, fully appreciated the gravity of these terrible offences and took into account all of the relevant factors.

"I believe that the sentences fall within the range that it was reasonable for the judge to have imposed and there is no realistic prospect that the Court of Appeal would increase the sentences if I referred them."

The Attorney General said the life and indefinite sentences handed down by the judge were "entirely merited". She stressed the three defendants would only be released if and when they no longer presented a risk to the public, and children in particular.

"Those closest to the victims deserve our utmost sympathy and support".

The tariffs given to Baby P's mother, her boyfriend and the lodger were indeterminate sentences for public protection (IPPs).

Jason Owen among jailed trio

These sentences are regarded by the Prison Service as being equivalent to life sentences, as the prisoner has no 'automatic right to be released'.

Only once their tariff expires do they have the opportunity to have their case reviewed by a team of parole officers, who must decide whether they are no longer a threat to the public.

According to the latest figures, nearly half of the 10,911 people serving 'life' sentences in British prisons are on IPPs.

When they were introduced by former Home Secretary David Blunkett, they were seen as a way in which to allow judges to serve 'life' sentences for crimes which, by conventional sentencing would not have allowed such a severe penalty.

Statistics released to Sky News by the Ministry of Justice last year showed that only one individual serving an IPP had ever been released when their minimum tariff expired.

viv said...

So what it really boils down to is the Judge set unrealistic minimum tariffs they MUST serve and they can of course be kept far longer.

viv said...

Interesting post from Hawkeyes on 3As on the career of Kate :

(I am wondering why there seems to be a consistent denial she had anything to do with being an anaesthetist??)

Neither Kate Healy (McCann) nor Fiona Webster (Payne), are listed as having any specialty training of anaesthesia on the GMC's Medical Register, but according to the GMC this is of no consequence, as it is only consultants, who are required to be registered with their specialty.

As Kate Healy trained as a gynaecologist, after serving first as a House Officer, that would have delayed her studying anaesthetics by a number of years. I had read in David Payne's rogatory statement that Kate and Fiona worked together at Leicester, so this is where she would have mostly likely received her final training as an anesthetist. Elsewhere I had read that Kate had worked as an anaesthetist for a year in Wellington, New Zealand, but no mention at what level. I agree with you that it would have been at the old Senior House Officer level. Kate would have completed her Junior House Officer year and preliminary gynaecology training at the Glasgow Infirmary (where she had met Gerry) before leaving for New Zealand. She had graduated from Dundee in 1992 and, in piecing all of this together, would have been in New Zealand between between 1997 and 1998. Of course, she could have switched fields before leaving Glasgow for New Zealand. And that would have given her a head start in her new career.

It was not until after her marriage and around the time that she wanted to have children that she made the switch to general practice and joined the Latham House Surgery in Melton Mowbray to work 1.5 days per week.

viv said...

Bren's account on 3 As has been deactivated and all of her posts removed, apparently.

What on earth is going on!!!

viv said...

The paypal button has been removed as well. Hummm

Di said...

Hi Viv

I have just had a quick look over on 3A's regarding Bren. It would appear she is taking time out and has removed the paypal button as she is not going to be around.

Just when things seem to be happening seems an odd time to leave. Maybe her family are suffering and she wants to spend more time with them, or perhaps more threats, there is only so much anyone can take.

Have you definitely been banned? If you have, it is a pity someone is not saying, as posters are asking why you are not responding to their questions.

I think CarlyM is right 3A's is not the same.

Di said...


Has everyone gone from 3A's to where you now post?

viv said...

14 October 2007

This is the nanny Madeleine McCann's parents believe will be a key witness in their fight to clear their names and find their daughter.

She was witness to the McCanns' movements during the week they were on holiday in Portugal and fed Madeleine less than three hours before she disappeared.

Today we can reveal her identity as 20-year-old Catriona Baker, the daughter of a nurse and draughtsman from Manchester.

The McCanns believe Ms Baker is a key witness in the defence that they are assembling with the aid of a team of lawyers and investigators.

Ms Baker is still in contact with Kate McCann and was said by friends to have been hit hard by her charge's disappearance, even being offered trauma counselling by Mark Warner Holidays.

Intriguingly, Ms Baker revealed to one friend - spoken to by this newspaper - that she told Portuguese police of a man she saw acting strangely near the apartments.

She was interviewed for just three hours by police on the morning after Madeleine's disappearance. This compares with the four-and-a-half hours endured by Charlotte Pennington, another nanny at the resort who was witness to Kate's 'hysterical' reaction to Madeleine's disappearance.

The Mail on Sunday has also learned that within 24 hours of that interview Ms Baker was dispatched by Mark Warner to take up a new position in the Greek resort of San Agostino along with four other members of staff.

They were all linked to the seven holidaymakers who had eaten in the resort's tapas restaurant with Kate and Gerry McCann on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.

It is believed Ms Baker has since been reinterviewed by both British and Portuguese police but she has been told not to comment on the investigation.

She had been introduced to Gerry and Kate McCann on the first evening of their holiday at the Ocean Club resort as Madeleine's designated nanny and had developed a 'good relationship with the couple and especially with Madeleine', according to a friend.

On the day Madeleine disappeared Ms Baker had spent nearly six hours with the toddler, along with five other children aged between three and five. Two of those are believed to have been the children of the McCanns' friends, David and Fiona Payne.

Madeleine and her two-year-old twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, were placed in the resort's Kids Club, where Ms Baker worked, at around 10am while their parents took a stroll before collecting them at 12.30pm for lunch back at the apartment.

In the afternoon, the McCanns played tennis while Madeleine went back to her nanny at the children's club, who gave her tea at 5.30pm. Madeleine, Sean and Amelie were picked up by their parents at 6pm.

Ms Baker was not with the McCanns when the alarm was sounded over Madeleine's disappearance just before 10pm. However, she joined the search shortly after 11pm after completing her duties as a night babysitter.

She is now a live-in nanny looking after three children. Her location is being withheld on the request of the McCanns.

Ms Baker refused to comment about the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance, adding: 'I don't want to go through it again.'

viv said...

cut some of the above to fit it in.

Felt by Kate and Gerry to be a key witness in their defence being worked on by "lawyers and investigators", but subsequently told by police to keep her mouth shut and just like Mrs Fenn she does not wish to discuss it!. Somehow I think we will be hearing more from this young lady, but not as a defence witness.

viv said...

Hiya Di,

I cannot understand why all of Bren's posts have been removed, it is like all trace of the founder of the site has gone. She was recently expressing disapproval of, you guessed it, Tony Bennett.

I tried to log back in to see what happened and a message came up your account has been banned until 9.31 on 12/08/09.

If they are trying to p$&& me off, it worked!


viv said...

If anyone is concerned about having a question answered, they do, after all, know where to find me!

The only thing anyone needs to do to post on here is get a google account and not be foul and abusive.

I am pleased to note Rosie, et al realised they are delete material


Di said...

Hi Viv

It is like being in the naughty corner, you are timed out Lol.

I think they would miss you if you were banned Viv, but would not like to admit it. Your expertise in law means alot to everyone.

Di said...


Regarding Bren's posts being removed. I seem to remember someone else left a while ago and all their posts went whoosh. Perhaps it is something that happens when you ask for your account to be removed, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, many happy returns from your time out ;o)

Soda said...

Oh dear what did you say about poor Tony to get thrown out Viv???

Wonder what is going on???

Hi Di are you a Dr today??? LOL x

Di said...

Hi Hope

Not a Dr today just group therapy ;o)

Soda said...

Group therapy is a good thing LOL

Shall I start...

I just cant seem to stop eating biscuits....

Di said...

Don't tell me, you are a sugarholic LOL

Soda said...


If I admit that I am indeed a sugarholic does that mean I can never have another sugar fix for the rest of my life!!!!

Not sure I can admit to that if the outcome is to go sugar free...


viv said...

Di Hun

I could not count the number of people who put me in the naughty corner for a time out. From age 6 when announcing to some astounded teacher, well I am going to the toilet, right now, why should I wait till playtime, I have never looked back:-))

She told my embarrassed mummy, the only time she shuts up for a bit is when I let her study nature or read The Hobbitt or Toad of Toad Hallxx

viv said...

Di, I think they want me to stick my legalese, they already have a resident lawyer:-)))

I think as Bren mentioned, 5,4,3,2,1 your post is now being abducted.

Dr Di/Hope

What is this chocolate thing going on? I am just dreaming of the flipping stuff, if it is not choc mini rolls it is constant cups of double choca mocca or something. Got one as I speak. Could it be this freezing August weather, when even in UK it is normally like well hot? Must get back on the tea, it might keep me awake but I am sure it is less calories!


viv said...

Hope, now don't start me off on sweet, non-judgmental Tony Babes xx

I ain't dun nuffink!!

...but he will probably threaten to sue me anyway:-)))

viv said...

WA News

Perth socialite yet to be contacted over Maddie case

August 13, 2009 - 6:05PM

Private detectives searching for Madeleine McCann have not yet contacted Rhonda Wyllie, owner of a luxury yacht at the centre of fresh speculation about the British toddler's disappearance.

The yacht became a new focus in the hunt for Madeleine after British newspapers revealed last Sunday it was moored at a marina in Barcelona, Spain, when a woman with an Australian accent asked a man if he was delivering her new daughter.

The conversation between the woman, who is being sought by investigators, and the British man was at the same marina where the WillPower was docked and occurred just 72 hours after Madeleine vanished from a Portuguese resort in May 2007.

Details about the yacht sparked headlines around the world and reports about how the team of private detectives searching for Madeleine wanted to interview its owners, Perth socialite Rhonda Wyllie and her daughter, businesswoman Melissa Karlson.

However, despite five days of speculation about the yacht, neither woman has been approached by anyone from the McCann investigation team.

"There's been no contact from the investigators," a spokesman for the family told AAP.

Both women say they are happy to cooperate with investigators to clarify that while their multi-million dollar yacht was moored in Barcelona at the time, neither woman was on board.

In a statement released on Thursday, the women said they remained "perplexed" by the links between their yacht and the investigation but were "unable to provide any relevant assistance" in the search for the four-year-old girl.

"In fact, members of the Wyllie family were in Antibes, France, that evening, not in Barcelona," the statement said.

"The Wyllie family appreciates that the McCann family needs to pursue every possible inquiry and will cooperate with police investigators to confirm any facts."

Mrs Wyllie was reportedly "devastated" by the media reports about the possible connection between her 32-metre yacht and the search for Madeleine.

The yacht, which is up for sale in the south of France, can sleep six guests and carry four crew.

At the time it was moored in Barcelona, it was crewed by American and English personnel.

Madeleine vanished from her family's rented holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on May 3, 2007, while her parents dined with friends at a nearby restaurant.

Investigators working for the McCann family last week released a sketch of the woman - described as a Victoria Beckham look-alike - who spoke to the British man at the Barcelona marina.

They said they believed it was possible Madeleine could have been taken by boat from Portugal to Spain.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/perth ... -ejrz.html

viv said...


Australian millionaire 'cannot help with Madeleine McCann investigation

An Australian millionaire socialite and her daughter are unable to provide any ''relevant assistance'' to investigators searching for Madeleine McCann, they have said.

Published: 10:32AM BST 13 Aug 2009

Melissa Karlson's mother owns the £6million vessel, Willpower Photo: SPLASH

The luxury yacht owned by Rhonda Wyllie and Melissa Karlson, the widow and daughter of the late Perth property tycoon Bill Wyllie, was linked to the inquiry in reports.
The boat, named WillPower, was moored at a marina in Barcelona, Spain, where a woman with an Australian accent reportedly asked a bystander if he was there to deliver her ''new daughter'' days after Madeleine disappeared.
Private detectives for the little girl's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, launched an appeal for information last week about the mysterious woman, described as a Victoria Beckham lookalike.
Mrs Wyllie and Ms Karlson insisted today they were in Antibes, France, on the night in question and said they could not help the investigators.
They said they would co-operate with the police to confirm the facts.

A statement released through their company said: ''The Wyllie Group today confirmed that the Wyllie family were unable to provide any relevant assistance to authorities investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007.

''British media reports on Sunday August 9 2009 raised suggestions that Wyllie family members may be able to assist investigators in relation to an incident at Port Olympia, Barcelona, on the night of May 6 2007.
''The Wyllie family is perplexed with these media reports. In fact, members of the Wyllie family were in Antibes, France, that evening, not in Barcelona. The Wyllie yacht WillPower was docked in Port Olympia on May 6 2007, crewed by American and English personnel.
''The Wyllie family appreciates that the McCann family needs to pursue every possible inquiry and will co-operate with police investigators to confirm any facts.''
There is no suggestion that Mrs Wyllie, Ms Karlson or any of their yacht's crew had anything to do with the little girl's disappearance.
Madeleine was nearly four when she went missing from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in Portugal on May 3 2007 while her parents dined with friends nearby.
Just over 72 hours later, in the early hours of May 7, two British men saw the Victoria Beckham lookalike while on a night out in the popular Port Olimpic Marina in Barcelona.
When one of the British men approached and spoke to her, she reportedly asked him in an Australian accent: ''Are you here to deliver my new daughter?''
After speaking to the witness, the woman went into a bar next door, where she had a heated conversation with a local in what seemed to be fluent Spanish.
The McCanns' private investigators received hundreds of calls and emails from the public in response to their appeal, including ''dozens'' of possible names for the woman.
They are now going through the information and, if necessary, will travel to Australia to follow up leads.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... ation.html

viv said...

So, it would appear the hapless detectives are unable to follow up on their important press conference.

English and American crew, did the McCann comandeer this yacht for their own foul purposes:-)))

The McCanns tecs do seem to want to keep stressing to us there is a British connection, in the disappearance of little Maddie. Yes, yes, we understand that:-))

In fact, so do British Police..

viv said...

Ho HUm, so maybe they are not going to Australia then, it is back to Europe. I wonder if the hapless Mr Hewlett is still alive, so they can focus on grilling him for five hours, as demanded, or will there be a new e-fit any time soon? I prefer the one above of Gerry McCann, I think that is just a tad more relevant!

You really could not make such an incredible farce up, could you!

McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "We are grateful to the Wyllie family for clarifying their position.

"Our investigators have spoken to some of the crew members at the time, and we are very grateful to them for their assistance in this matter."

There have now been more than 800 responses to the appeal for information about the woman seen in Barcelona and it is understood the McCanns' private detectives are pursuing lines of inquiry within Europe

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... appearance

Di said...

Hi all

No Viv you could not make it up, but sadly there are many people out there who still think Madeleine was abducted and her parents are innocent of any involvement.

A good friend of mine who was unable to have children, just won't accept anything I put to her. Her response is always they had their children by IVF therefore they desperately wanted them, so no way were they involved.

I have forwarded Youtube videos and many other items, but her answer is always, these have been made by someone wanting to blame Kate & Gerry. I now don't bother discussing anything with her as I know it would ruin our friendship.

I appreciate that she has her reasons for trusting the McCanns, however, I wish I could open her eyes just a little bit and stop her from trusting everything she reads in the press.

As hubby says pigs might fly

viv said...

Hiya Di

When you look at just one simple thing that is currently going on and how absurd that is, two years to come forward and it can only be handled by their couple of investigators, not the real police, I am at a real loss to understand why some people still believe in the McCanns. But I suppose it is that degree of ignorance, relying upon people to believe the McCanns fight back in the media since the devastating headlines against them that carries forward this view from some members of the public, obviously as they designed to do.

Not everyone has the same degree of interest in this case, there are so many others and I think you are completely right to let your friend just continue to believe what she wants to believe. It is certainly not worth losing a friend over and she will know that she was wrong ultimately.Still we could predict when that will be!

I also believe that some of the actions of those who do not trust Kate and Gerry are counter-productive in their almost religious zeal to be seen as right, and actually produce this response.

Soda said...

Hello Viv and Di

There is no point in trying to convince your friend all is not well with Madeleine if she blindly belives what is in the press then I guess people like us seem cruel (who would ever have thought we would condem any parent of a missing child?) I know it is very alien to my way of thinking.

I actually believe now that their campaign will be the final nail in their coffin it is so bizare and random not thought through at all. They are working on the premis that most of us are not as inteligent as they are and will swallow what they throw at us (big mistake)...

The Fund was an eye opener who wastes money on lawyers if a child is missing? When you read through it very little was spent searching and of that M3 who had no experience to find a missing child was at best a huge error of judgement.

Then we have the 9 adults on that holiday who have made the PJ dance to their tune and spun out the most outrageous lies and half truths.

if Madeleine was really missing this would make them more evil than Hindley and Brady, they not only murdered many children but kept the secrets of the graves to themselves for years the people they hurt by doing this were the surviving family but if Madeleine is still alive their games of spin will have put her in even greater danger. Gerry knows someone may do something to her eye because his marketing op was just too good to pass by??? That is not the comment of a loving father about a live child.

So let them play their games although the papers seem to be going along with them every time the do a gallery of all the suspects (and remeber at the time each one of these people was the person who took her) it actually makes me laugh as they are so bad and so diffrent and every time they do this we see the photofit of Gerry staring back at us and it makes more people question.

The whole of the T9 have closed ranks when the strain of their lie gets too much one will break free (especialy if a relationship breaks up) then we will see all of them trying to strike a deal and once again trying to save their own necks...

Jane Tanner has been used by Team McCann for what purpose I am not sure (give Gerry and alibi?) but she is a laughing stock told she was wrong about where Gerry was standing that B Man could be B Woman. From and egg to tooth man I am afraid this lady is looking at a long time in prison for her lies.

She has 2 girls and she need's to start to put them first now and find herself a good lawyer so she spends the minimum time in jail if any. There are no second chances at life she will miss a great deal of what her girls are doing and for what?

Face it Jane if Madeleine is really missing all you have done is make it imposible for her to be found. If she is dead and not by your hand you owe it to your girls to tell the truth 2 years of lies and looking over your sholder how do you get up every morning?

But get up you must as two children love you more than anything else in the world and as a Mother you owe it to them to be strong and sort this mess out before it tears their lives apart. They need you and their need is far greater and important that the McCann's.

viv said...

Morning Hope and thanks for a great post!

I see the Express and Star are not mincing their words in relation to the latest McCampaign:

YOU can tell the silly season has begun - there is a “development” in the Madeleine McCann story. More than two years after the little girl vanished in Portugal, a report emerges of a mysterious woman who, three days after the 2007 abduction, asked a tourist in Barcelona (700 miles away) : “Are you here to deliver my new daughter?” As you do.
The “stunned tourist” kept quiet about this conversation for so long “for personal reasons”. As you do.
It’s just another Maddie fairytale. Take a huge pinch of salt with it. As you do.


Well done to this local paper for telling it just like it is!


viv said...

55 news reports that there is no link (big suprise) to the Australian millionaires.

I wonder how Clarence will bury this bad news that took just a few days to follow their disastrous press conference?


Soda said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wizard said...

Having followed the Madeleine McCann case for 2 years I thought I was up-to-date on all the twist and turns in this mystery – but alas not.

Consider my surprise when I read in today’s Guardian that a suspect had been arrested, charged and found guilty – all of which I appeared to have missed.

Simon Hoggart tells his readers today that obviously MM’s parents had nothing to do with her disappearance.

WOW a conviction must have been obtained on the guilty party and it was obviously not one of her parents.

Er…well in fact no…..another know-it-all voicing an opinion without doing the research!

Simon Hoggart – The Guardian – Saturday 15 August 2009

“There are some things in the media I long ago decided not to believe. Anything about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann (except the obvious fact that the parents had nothing to do with it)”


Soda said...

Morning Wiz

The odd thing about all this is I dont belive there was an abduction and I belive the T9 know exactly what happend to Madeleine. If people can be bothered to read the files there is a lot of evidence to sugest Madeleine is dead and they covered it up.

The Games they have played with Madeleines life convince me yet again that she was not abducted as it would be evil to play these games if she really was findable.

There is no way on earth anyone can be 100% convinced that the McCann's were not involved there are many questions left unanswered and they would not have been if Madeleine had a 1% chance of being found.

If Madeleine is ever found I will be delighted to be proved wrong but will still be very angry that they messed around with spin when she could have been found long before had they even bothered to advertise the reward.

My concern is all these blind people who follow the gospel of St Gerry and Kate without a doubt is that if it is ever proved they did at the very least cover up her death will they ever help a genuine parent whoes child is missing or real for years about the support they gave to parents who were to blame?

Have we not learned from the many tragic cases of abused and murdered children who slipped through social services radar? Do children no matter? can their lives be spun by overpaid media manipulators whilst the parents who brag they left them alone every night become heros of their childs tragedy....

I cant be 100% sure that Madeleine was not abducted but the evidence 9and there is plenty of it) convinces me she was not.

I know I keep banging on about the happy snaps and the odd blogs by Gerry, Kates refusal to answer a single question, the pact of silence a big NO to a reconstruction (that could only help the police) but these things alone tell me they are lying as to cover up an accident is wrong but I can get my head round it. To allow the spin and lack of help if she is missing is as evil as Baby Ps mother standing back and watching her child being abused and joining in. And I cant belive that any of them would be evil and play games with Madelines life in this way if she was still out there alive.


Wizard said...

Hi All,

Just been reading the Mail article regarding the leaflets distributed by the Madeleine Foundation.

All publicity they say is good er... well perhaps.

I understand Tony Bennett is taking the Sun's take on this story to the Press Complaints Commission.

Hate campaign: A leaflet blames Madeleine McCann's parents for her disappearance

The parents of Madeleine McCann were last night said to be devastated by a hate campaign suggesting they were responsible for their daughter’s disappearance.
A leaflet entitled ‘Ten reasons to suggest that Madeleine McCann was not abducted’ was distributed to 10,000 residents of the village where they live and the surrounding area.
It was even sent to residents of the street in Rothley, Leicestershire, where Kate and Gerry McCann, both doctors, live with their four-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.
The leaflet was not delivered to the McCanns’ home.
The Madeleine Foundation, which distributed the leaflet, was set up by former lawyer Tony Bennett, 60, who has previously tried and failed to bring a private prosecution against the couple for child neglect.
He and his supporters have produced a 64-page anti-McCann book entitled ‘What really happened to Madeleine McCann? Sixty reasons to suggest that she was not abducted’.
Like the leaflet, it is emblazoned with a picture of the missing girl, who was aged three when she disappeared from her parents’ holiday apartment in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz on May 3, 2007.
The leaflet says her parents’ version of events on the night she disappeared is a ‘sheer impossibility’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206719/McCanns-tormented-leaflet-campaign-blaming-Madeleines-disappearance.html#ixzz0OF2rkXQX

Wizard said...

Good Morning Hope,

I totally agree - good post.

Di said...

Hi all

Well said as always Hope.


I see the Daily Star are reporting that the McCanns have now got Police protection, in case the leaflet drop causes a hate campaign against them which could escalate into violence.

I suppose there will always be some people, looking for trouble, who would take the law into their own hands.

I am not sure what to make of this leaflet drop.

viv said...

Hi guys and thanks for good posts as ever.

I cannot understand what the logic was in distributing this leaflet in the McCanns immediate area, but I think the reaction, from locals, the press and the police could have been very easily predicted.

If it was intended to increased sales of the 60 Reasons booklet I think that was another own goal.

But at least Tony has now got himself in the national press, something he always wanted. I hope he is very pleased with himself.

If Kate is being booed and hissed at by any vigilantes as she is taking the twins to school and needs a police escort, we can thank Tony Bennett for this.

Of course he claims to be so much in favour of caring for children.

viv said...

Last night Madeleine Foundation leader Tony Bennett, 61, a retired solicitor from Harlow, Essex, who wrote a book about the case, admitted he was behind the leaflet drop.

“I do not fear any legal action from the McCanns,’’ he said.

I do not think it is the McCanns this man needs to fear, it is the police!

viv said...

There is now, of course, a barrage of press reporting on the conduct of Tony Bennett. If he did not see this coming I think he had better take a step back and get himself a reality check. Maybe he should also get rid of that awful popup on his webpage, trying to sell his book full of innuendo. The facts according to Tony Bennett bear little relationship to the official police files we have seen which certainly do give cause to suspect the McCanns were involved in the disappearance of little Madeleine. He has just gone way beyond what any decent and law abiding person would do and given the McCanns the very best publicity they could have hoped for. So I for one, just hope that you will now shut up please Tony! \

viv said...

'Best thing for McCanns is for them to be charged'


By Brian Reade 10/09/2007

To end the innuendo the best thing for the McCanns is for them to be charged with their daughter's KILLING

For the past four months most outsiders have looked in on Kate and Gerry McCann's terrible nightmare with an overpowering sense of impotence and ignorance.

Even with a daughter the same age as Madeleine, I've found it impossible to imagine the depth of their pain and guilt. Impossible to put myself in their position.

But being named as official suspects brings their plight into focus.

Now the avalanche of rumours, slurs, whispers, smears and falsehoods that have filled the Portuguese media and the worldwide internet, have been given a form of official credibility.

Now, every bar-room bore who took the stance from day one that they were "in on it" wears a smug grin.

And we begin to know how the McCann's must feel. Just like Kerry Needham.

In 1991 her 21-month-old son Ben went missing on the Greek island of Kos and the family were convinced he was taken by child traffickers.

When local police turned up nothing, and politicians began to worry about the effect on tourism, they let it be known that the family were either covering up an accident or they had sold Ben. Spot the similarities with Madeleine.

Kerry's brother Stephen, who was 17 at the time, said that the police pressure was so relentless, he began to believe he had killed his nephew and buried him with a spade.

Ben has never turned up, but neither has any evidence against any member of the Needham family. Yet to this day there are still people convinced they are to blame.

Kerry still gets the stares, the abuse and the phone calls calling her a heartless b*****d who got away with it.

She's serving a life sentence through innuendo. And so will Kate and Gerry McCann unless they are given their chance in court to state their innocence with conviction and certainty.

Which is why, barring Madeleine or her killer being found, the best thing that could happen to them is to be charged with their daughter's killing.

Gerry McCann knows this. He has told friends he would welcome being put in the dock, because: "We can rebutt things in court. That is what is sustaining me."

At the moment they are in limbo. As official suspects their voice is stolen.

They have to stonewall every inquiry, despite aching to give a true response with the words: "I can't say anything."

And we know how guilty that can make someone sound to those who want to believe it. Which brings us on to an even grimmer reality.

Their day in court may convince most people they are totally guilt-free, but without their child's body, they may never be able to prove their total and complete innocence.

Even if a jury reaches a unanimous verdict in their favour they will never satisfy the entire world.

Or at least that massive section of it whose small minds believe there is no smoke without fire and mud must always stick.

Ask Sion Jenkins, who has been cleared of killing his foster daughter or Colin Stagg, who was cleared of killing Rachel Nickell. A court ruling hasn't persuaded everyone that they are innocent men.

Because one thing we know about human beings is how relentlessly inhumane many choose to be.

When some have taken their knitting to the guillotine they won't leave until heads roll.

Which is why the most unpalatable reality facing the McCanns is that whether they are charged with her daughter's murder or not, their nightmare may never end.

viv said...

Yet more evidence of the McCanns investigators who simply do not bother to investigate. There just has to be as big a question mark surrounding about the fifth bunch of McCann investigators, did Edgar even go to Spain as he suggested? It does not really sound like it!

As a result of his appeal for information and the issuing of an e-fit image of the woman, the search switched to Australia, where a woman in Sydney made a statement to police claiming to know the identity of the mystery female seen in Barcelona, although this apparently came to nothing.

The Mail on Sunday, however, has established that members of Mr Edgar’s team who had visited Barcelona:

* Failed to speak to anyone working at the seafood restaurant near where the agitated woman was seen at 2am.
* Failed to ask the port authority about movement of boats around the time Madeleine disappeared.
* Failed to ask if the mystery woman had been filmed on CCTV.
* Knew nothing about the arrival of an Australian luxury yacht just after Madeleine vanished until told by British journalists, who gave them the captain’s mobile phone number.
* Failed to interview anyone at a nearby dockside bar where, according to Mr Edgar, the mystery woman was later seen drinking.
* Failed to ask British diplomats in Spain for advice before or during the visit.

Also, Spanish police could not confirm that they had been contacted by the British investigators.

viv said...

Cont'd from above: (they must be so grateful to Bennett for burying the bad news for them)

Last night Mr Edgar said: ‘We are not above criticism and I take responsibility for any shortcomings. If somebody has not done what they should have done, that’s my job to deal with that.’

He was hired by Kate and Gerry McCann after Portuguese authorities shelved their investigation last year.

According to the Find Madeleine Fund website, ‘the majority of the fund money has been and continues to be spent on investigative work to help to find Madeleine’.

The McCanns, doctors living in Rothley, Leicestershire, originally hired Barcelona-based detective agency Metodo 3 to look for Madeleine in 2007 as they were convinced that Portuguese police had given up the search.

Metodo 3 reportedly charged £50,000-a-month and its director, Francisco Marco, was criticised after making a series of boasts about his team’s ability to find Madeleine.

In December 2007, he caused a sensation by claiming he knew who had kidnapped her and hoped to have her home by Christmas.

Metodo 3’s six-month contract ran out in January 2008, although it has continued to help with the search.

The Mail on Sunday’s inquiry by a Spanish-speaking reporter in Barcelona last week has exposed worrying gaps in the British detectives’ strategy, including failure to question several people who might have vital information.

Jose Luis Lopez, owner of the El Rey de la Gamba restaurant where the
mystery woman was seen, said: ‘The private detectives did not make any enquiries at my restaurant.

‘I am almost always here when the restaurant is open and my staff would have informed me if anyone had approached them about such an important matter. You are the first person to ask about this Australian woman.’

The manager of the bar next door, Kennedy’s Irish Sailing Club, where the woman was later seen drinking, said: ‘You are the first person to ask about this Australian woman or the Madeleine case. If someone came into the bar asking questions about Madeleine, I would hear about it very quickly.’

Barcelona port director Joan Guitart said: ‘Nobody has been here asking questions about Madeleine or this Australian woman. This is the first I have heard about any possible link to the port. We would be happy to help the investigation in any way possible.’

A senior port authority worker added: ‘There are several security cameras monitoring the port but we have not been approached about footage from the night in question.

‘The footage is not available, as it was over two years ago that this conversation is said to have taken place. But I would have expected anyone carrying out the investigation to at least have asked about it.’

A source at the British Embassy in Madrid said: ‘The detectives did not inform us or the consulate in Barcelona that they were coming to Spain, nor request any assistance in their investigation.’

Jewellery designer Hannah Tait, 35, from London, who lives on a 34ft yacht yards from El Rey de la Gamba, said: ‘This place is like a small village so news travels very fast.

viv said...

cont'd from above

Nobody has been here asking about Madeleine or the Australian woman.

‘The first I heard was when I read about this on the internet. If someone had been investigating something so important here in the port, I would have heard about it.’

A Barcelona-based private detective with more than 20 years’ experience of missing persons cases said: ‘I cannot understand why the Madeleine detectives would have released this story and e-fit to the public without first making their own investigation in the port.

‘It beggars belief that they did not even speak to the owner of the restaurant or the port authorities.’

One of the most significant pieces of information about a possible Barcelona connection to Madeleine’s disappearance was uncovered by British journalists.

Later, The Mail on Sunday gained access to port records for the key dates of May 6 and 7, 2007.

They revealed that nine boats arrived in the marina in the 48-hour period, only one of which was unfamiliar to harbour authorities.

It was the £6million Sunseeker powerboat Willpower, owned by the Australian multi-millionairess Rhonda Wyllie.

When the then captain of the boat was eventually found, he said he had not been approached by any British detectives.

Although he has since been contacted by Mr Edgar’s team, the investigators are in the embarrassing position of having to explain why it was left to reporters to discover the boat’s presence in Barcelona and trace its former captain.

There is no suggestion that Mrs Wyllie, widow of property tycoon Bill Wyllie, is connected in any way with Madeleine’s disappearance.

The Barcelona stage of the inquiry was led by Mr Edgar’s assistant, former Merseyside Detective Sergeant Arthur Cowley, and an interpreter.

viv said...

cont'd from above

Mr Cowley, 57, is sole director of Alpha Investigation Group, based in Flintshire, North Wales.

He declined to discuss the details of his visit to Barcelona.

Asked last night why Mr Cowley and his colleague had not spoken to the port authorities, Mr Edgar said: ‘My instructions were that they couldn’t get through security at the marina at the time. I’ve got to take that at face value. We are a small team. We are dealing with finite resources and will have to manage with that.’

He said Mr Cowley’s company had no connection with the Madeleine investigation. ‘I am employed by the McCann family and I pick my staff,’ he added.
Madeleine was nearly four when she disappeared from a holiday flat while her parents dined with friends in a nearby restaurant.

Last night the McCanns’ spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: ‘The private investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance is being conducted entirely professionally and thoroughly under the direction of Dave Edgar.

‘Upon receipt of the new witness information, two members of the investigative team travelled to Barcelona to conduct preliminary inquiries during a brief initial visit.

‘This included identifying the exact marina where the witness had been and all relevant locations within it. At that stage, the precise bar involved had not been identified by the witness. Nevertheless, inquiries were conducted at a number of bars, with staff members being interviewed.

‘However, not all of the bars were open during the investigators’ visit. Because of the transient nature of bar work, it was also found that many of the workers who were spoken to were not present at the marina in May 2007.

'Other relevant personnel in the area were also interviewed, although we will not
discuss the detail of who was spoken to for operational reasons.

‘The information, once gathered, including photographs, was brought back to the UK for witness confirmation. Both British and Portuguese police were kept fully informed of the investigators’ visit to Spain.

‘The news conference was then held for the simple reason that public assistance was needed once the e-fit had been drawn up from the witness account. The public appeal does not preclude further enquiries being conducted in Barcelona as appropriate.’

He declined to say how much the private detectives were being paid, adding: ‘We will not discuss contractual matters concerning the investigation costs nor the investigator remuneration.’

Read more: http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/#ixzz0OIjXR6P0
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Non-Commercial No Derivatives

viv said...

Mr Edgar knows full well what he should be doing, investigating those who are paying his wages!

Last night Mr Edgar said: ‘We are not above criticism and I take responsibility for any shortcomings. If somebody has not done what they should have done, that’s my job to deal with that.’

Brencardi said...

Hi Viv,

This case is very tragic and the amount of pain poor Baby Peter had to endure makes me feel sick, especially when already those convicted and sentenced could possibly be out in no time with a new identity.

Sorry these people should have got life and life should mean life. What is ever stopping them doing this to another child when released. They have no care, compassion or respect for kids, they have proved that with Baby Peter and I doubt they will ever change. Just another tragedy waiting to happen if they are released.

viv said...

Hello Bren and how lovely to see you on the blog!!

The only comfort I draw is that the 5 years for the mom and the 12 years for the worst one are minimum sentences they must serve before being considered for parole. If the probation service and the parole board assess they are still a grave risk to children they can keep them in custody indefinitely, so I think there was a certain amount of scaremongering in the report which I accepted until I checked exactly how they were sentenced - given indeterminate sentences on public protection grounds.

When children are at risk from such people it is certainly tempting to say that life should mean life, but I suppose we do have to consider they may be rehabilitated or too old when they get out etc. I think the minimum sentences the judge handed out were too low but as I say that does not mean they will get out at that point.

It is very hard to accept the sort of money that has to be spent to actually protect such people when they are released and there is certainly an argument that less would be spent and better spent by keeping them in custody. What happened to little Peter, sysematic torture is just so terrible. It is one of the most horrific cases that has hit the press for a long time and the Judge had the clear opportunity to make an example of them and I think he should have done to let others know what they can expect if they subject any child to this.

I think the mother will take a lot of rehabilitating because currently she is is complete denial of her offending, trying to suggest she did not even know what was going on. Until such time as offenderes can take ownership for what they did and start to seriously demonstrate remorse they will continue to be considered as posing a high risk of harm to children and so I doubt she will be let out after only five years.


Soda said...

Morning Viv

I have tried everything this morning to change blogger back to hope4truth it wont budge (I have no idea how it changed to soda) Grrrrrrr

The Mail article is amazing Gerry must be fumming we know the Detectives are not paid to search but most of the public dont know that (and would think we were mad if we tried to tell them)....

As for Baby Ps killers I do think the time has come to give these pieces of scum a choice. Be released quietly maybe get them re located away from anyone who may have known them or live in a secure unit that will not only keep them in but will keep baying mobs out.

I would not go within 10 yards of this scum or shout abuse at them as I dont agree with vigalanties but I agree they will not be safe if people get hold of them.

When they took away Peters short life that had been full of pain and fear they did not give him a single choice and giving them the above one is more than generous IMHO they do not deserve to have a penny spent on them let alone millions.

Instead let the money go towards childrens groups who protect the innocent it is a warped logic that ther is no more money for Social Services but the pot can still stretch for the Murdering Scum to be kept safe???


Soda said...


Hope4truth said...


Hope4truth said...

Thank god for that I am back as me and not some soft fizzy drink !!!!

mandarinn said...

Hello Soda !!! Happy to see again Hope4truth.
Hi for viv and a nice sunday to all

Hope4truth said...

Hi Mandarinn

Hope you are well...

it is nice to have my username back (I think it may have gone on holiday) xxx

viv said...

Hopey, lovely to see you back with your proper name, well done darling. I just couldnot handle calling you Soda!!

Mandarinn, lovely to see you too xx

A source at the British Embassy in Madrid said: ‘The detectives did not inform us or the consulate in Barcelona that they were coming to Spain, nor request any assistance in their investigation.’

Why is it these detectives skulk around pretending to investigate without even asking the consulate for assistance? Well, we know the answer to that of course,

I wonder if Mr Cowley is making noises like I am sick of this I think the McCanns are involved and this is just a waste of time. Edgar is talking about I am employed by the McCanns and he is my staff, I choose my staff. ARe we being prepared for EXIT MR COWLEY, so that gormless Eddie can choose a new puppet?

viv said...

So, is Clarence telling us he is now a FAMILY MEMBER or is this yet more of his pompous talk? And just what efforts, exactly is Mitchell making to help find Maddie?

no connection whatsoever with OUR family

Their spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, said: ‘We do not wish to dignify the actions of the so-called Madeleine Foundation with any response. We do feel it is important, however, to make the general public aware that the foundation has no connection whatsoever with our family or those helping us find Madeleine or any law enforcement agencies.

‘We strongly believe the actions of this organisation do not have Madeleine’s best interests at heart. If anything, it is hampering our efforts to find Madeleine and achieve justice on her behalf.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206719/McCanns-tormented-leaflet-campaign-blaming-Madeleines-disappearance.html#ixzz0OLnak9XZ

viv said...

I know this is The People so we have to be careful but the quote from Clarence is very interesting, the search will not stop when the money runs out. I seem to recall that very recently he told us that was not a problem because of the rich financial backers, so, I wonder, what happened to "them" or should I say, Brian Kennedy. Has even he dumped Team McCann.

Given the McCanns have now frittered most of that massive amount of cash away, on investigations every bit as professional as not even bothering to check CCTV cameras for this mystery woman before the two stooges did a worldwide press conference, are we finally going to hear the last of Kate and Gerry soon and their endless web of lies about how they are, ahem, looking for their daughter?

I really hope so!

16 August 2009
Russell Myers
The £3million fund to find missing Madeleine McCann will run out out of money by the end of the year.

Cash flooded in from wellwishers around the world after the angelic youngster vanished in Portugal in May 2007 days before her fourth birthday.

But since then, £1million has been spent on private detectives, £123,000 on campaign managers, £100,000 on posters and ads and £110,000 on legal fees and expenses. And public donations to the Find Madeleine Fund - which peaked at £260 an hour - have almost dried up.


The shortfall was revealed as leaflets blaming parents Kate and Gerry over Maddie's disappearance were delivered to every address in the McCanns' home village of Rothley, Leics.

The furious couple have vowed to sue the sick pampleteers.

Meanwhile, 41-year-old doctors Gerry and Kate are meeting fundraising experts as they now have less than £250,000 to continue the worldwide hunt for Maddie.

A source close to the McCanns said: "It's a very worrying time. The money will run out by the end of the year and no one knows where the next lot will come from."

Kate and Gerry have vowed never to quit the hunt for their daughter, who vanished while on holiday with her parents and their two year-old twins Sean and Amelie in Praia da Luz.

Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "Their search will not stop when the money runs out."

Di said...

Hi all

I don't believe there ever was a credible witness. I believe the posh lookalike was a completely madeup story, and I don't believe Edgar or Cowley even went to Spain. Pink spin imo.

Wizard said...

Hi Viv,

I like the article in the people it’s very sarcastic – it points out that of the £3M they have only spent 1 ½ million searching for Madeleine.

On my reckoning 1 ½ million remains - meaning the pot is half full and not running out.

All this money spent has come up with absolutely zilch. Could it be because the McCanns’ steer the search? Ho hum …..

Di said...

Hi Viv

Quote- The money will run out and no one knows where the next lot will come from.

Quite simple, beg for thr case to be re-opened and it won't cost them a penny. They won't do that though will they.

viv said...

hiya Di, | believe there was an incredible witness who took two years to be dragged up. That is all these McCann defectives have ever been about. For money, dredging up people who are prepared to tell the most incredible lies for Kate and Gerry McCann.

Just like that Cooper woman who could not even tell the truth about her age, 50? I just don't believe it! We can see on the process files that the police were not happy with this woman who kept chatting to The Daily Mirror. Of course police witnesses do not do that.

These so called detectives are an alternative to the police, and cannot even admit what the real police are doing because they know they would get the sack.

It is a pretty sickening job to drag up so called witnesses who are prepared to tell a ripping good yarn, to defend Kate and Gerry McCann. They do not create the required "element of doubt", they create a sick media circus.

I would just like to ask can Mr Edgar sleep at night? He did not look too good on that staggering piece of play acting called a press conference.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

There has been a denial that any of the Fund was used for legal costs and yet, even so, the accounts disclose they were used for that purpose.

I would not be surprised if things like the so called half a million to Mr Halligen somehow got laundered back to kate and Gerry McCann. After all, they have always known for a fact, they need a defence fighting fund and defending themselves is all this has ever been about.

If you have a living child that you want to find, why would you not heavily plug the massive reward for her? Maybe they do have a living child, but it is very clear, they employ puppets and the very last thing they have ever wanted to do is find Madeleine. They could not even provide up to date photographs showing her long hair. We get that cutesy image of her about two with tinted red hair and makeup.

This couple are just sick!

viv said...

and it is by no means the first time The Daily Mail has written a really disastrous article for Team McCann, well done Daily Mail indeed! They print the Kate and Gerry press bulletins and they also do their own serious research into the truth of that. Then they let the public make up their own minds, having correctly informed them, without libelling the McCanns and without annoying British Police and damaging the real investigation.

Nick Davies, the author of Flat Earth News had this to say about the Mail :

"The Daily Mail is the most powerful paper in this country because it has the biggest staff".

That means their reporters have the time and the money to investigate stuff like this. Knowing that the Mail set three reporters onto what was clearly a very flaky story will have Team McCann spooked.

The story raises a bunch of questions:

What exactly is the relationship between Edgar, Cowley, the McCanns and Brian Kennedy?
Who works for who?
Who pays who?
Why on earth did Edgar and Mitchell make such a song and dance about such an under-researched lead?
Who gave Mitchell and Edgar the instructions to go public? Both looked uncomfortable at the press conference and were clearly not in command of the facts.
Are Edgar and Cowley working separately, rather than together?
Was the Wyllie link a complete accident? It does appear that Team McCann hadn't made this link and they were left to damage limitation - echoes of Hewlett?
And, given that no journalist blows all the story in the first article, what else have they got?

I never thought I'd say this but, "Well done, Daily Mail".

Wizard said...

Hi Viv and Di,

The pretendy cops and all the investigators that the Mc’s have engaged over the last couple of years do not have carte blanche to investigate where they like.

They are restricted. Part of this restriction must surely be not to look too closely at their clients and investigate only their client’s claim of a stranger abductor.

I suspect all the T9 are off bounds for investigation too.

These investigations do little more than attempt to launder the Mc’s reputation.

A reputation, I might add, which is falling into an abyss with all these alleged ‘go nowhere’ leads which get more ridiculous as time passes.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

The McCanns become ever more desperate and ever more pathetic, Hewlett was bad enough, as was the wish to see a murder suspect in a Scottish jail, but when they moved on to Australian millionaire and their yacht being used to abduct Maddie, they really did push the boat out:-))

I am sure there is a very cogent reason for their desperation and time will tell just what that is xx

Wizard said...

On the subject of the fund - I was just thinking shouldn’t the fund accounts be published again soon?

Hope4truth said...

hello all

Maybe Wiz that is what all the new sightings and panic is about they have to show the books again soon and need to justify the spending???


viv said...

hiya Wiz

I tried to find the accounts on the blog but my filing system is somewhat awry:-))

However this report would seem to suggest they were produced in Jan this year and so we have quite a wait for the next set of revelations, or should I say pieces of creative accounting!

Two million contributed to find Madeleine fund

« 29 January 2009
Well-wishers donated nearly £2 million to the fund to find Madeleine McCann in the 10 months after she went missing, official accounts show.
More than £815,000 of the money was spent on the search for the little girl between her disappearance in May 2007 and March last year.

This included £250,000 for search fees, including Spanish private detectives Metodo 3, £111,522 for legal costs
ADVERTISEMENTand £123,573 for campaign management, accounts filed to Companies House show.

Madeleine's Fund was launched a fortnight after the child vanished from Praia da Luz, southern Portugal, on May 3 2007.

Money flooded in from supporters around the world who wanted to do something to help her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.

Donations in the period to March 31 last year totalled £1,846,178, including £64,078 from sales of T-shirts and wrist bands.

Mr McCann's brother John, who is one of the fund's directors, said contributions had since dropped off.

He wrote in a foreword to the accounts: "As expected, the level of donations has fallen over time, although we have a number of loyal donors continuing their support.

"Income in the new financial year is currently significantly lower than at the same time last year. However, our expenses are ongoing and likely to increase."

For legal reasons Madeleine's Fund was set up as a not-for-profit limited company rather than a charity.

Its objectives are to secure Madeleine's safe return, to ensure that anyone involved in her disappearance is brought to justice, and to provide support to her family.

There was controversy when it was disclosed in October 2007 that the McCanns had used money from the fund to pay two mortgage payments on their home in Rothley, Leicestershire.

McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said today: "Everyone who has so generously donated money to help find Madeleine can be assured that every penny has been accounted for and has been, entirely appropriately, spent one way or another on the search for Madeleine.
"The accounts have been independently audited and are entirely transparent."

Mr Mitchell's salary was previously paid by the McCanns' millionaire benefactor, Cheshire-based entrepreneur Brian Kennedy.

But it is understood that he has been receiving a monthly retainer from the Madeleine Fund since September last year.

Madeleine was nearly four when she went missing from her family's holiday apartment while her parents dined with friends nearby.

Despite a massive police operation and huge publicity worldwide, she has not been found.

Di said...

Hi all


Yes I think the accounts are due soon. The spending seems to have gone into overdrive. Did they travel to Austalia as they were supposed to do, did they even travel to Spain?

The fund states that the family can use the money for their benefit. Kate & Gerry are directors of the fund they have no doubt the best accountants, I rest my case.

This is not and has never been about Madeleine, this about saving themselves.

My worry is what I have read from a supposed neighbour in Rothley, 3A's, that the McCanns are wanting to sell and move abroad. The leaflet drop would be used as the excuse they are being persecuted apparently.


What chance of justice for Madeleine if this does happen, especially if they relocate to Canada?

Di said...

Hi Viv

I am glad you found that so the accounts are not due yet then. So they can spend spend spend for a while longer :o(

Hope4truth said...

Hello Viv and Di

I am not sure they will move away??? who will keep the Tapas together in their pact if they are no longer around???

Although I am very angry at the way the McCann's have behaved towards Madeleine I cant help thinking (and this is only in the case of an accident) that although they have turned themselves into the victims it is a hell of a tragic thing to live with for the rest of their lives. They both look like they have aged in the last two years and the loss of a child well I hope I never have to find out how that feels.

If Madeleine is dead there is nothing they can do for her and I guess they feel they must keep it going for the twins (again I cant imagine being parted from either of my girls)...

If it was not an accident then I hope none of them ever sleep again and St Peter can sort them out one day...

As for moving away I think for the Twins it would be the best thing to happen. Children can be cruel although I would hope their parents wont be and will keep everything away from them. However give it a few years when they can search for their sister on line I think there will be a lot of questions they want answered.

What a horrible mess if only they had actually said they were very wrong to leave the children alone and acted like normal guilt ridden people berating themselves for leaving her alone to be taken then vanished from view we would only have ever been able to ask every so often "I wonder if they ever found the little girl who vanished in Portugal a few years ago?"

As it is their campaign is what has led to the life they have it is now obvious to all the detectives are not searching and once again more questions will be asked...


viv said...

Di, that is a difficult question and I am not sure I have any answer.

If the UK Police are at a stage where they could arrest them, they could be bailed pending further enquiries and one of those bail conditions would almost certainly be they must surrender their passports to prevent them fleeing abroad.

There is also the situation of would Canada accept them if UK Police state they continue to be suspects in the disappearance of their daughter.

I just do not think it would be at all easy for the McCanns to leave UK and cannot help but notice they have not been anywhere this year.

viv said...

Hope, that is the thing isn't it. They started all this off in such a guilty way with their collusive timelines and the complete failure to accept they did anything wrong.

That is what separates them from normal parents. I could have accepted an abduction if only they had said, we were wrong, we should never have left those children alone, not for a moment.

I just know that any mom who really loves their child does not put their own wellbeing before that child. If I had been in that situation I would have confessed all to the police and said do what you like to me but please I am telling you everything I can, please help me find my little girl. That is what Kate and Gerry have consistently failed to do from the very outset and that is what really separates them out from normal parents.

Their campaign seeking to latch on to all of the political work that had gone before on Amber Alert was a disaster IMO.

Their campaign should have been please when you go on holiday DO NOT LEAVE YOUR CHILDREN IN HOTEL ROOM. Had they done this people, myself included, would not have been suspicious of them, we would have been supportive and felt empathy for their plight.

But the complete lack of any evidence of a breakin into that apartment, any evidence at all of any abductor coupled with their conduct and their friends, has always told us the reality.

It has always been most terribly sad for the twins.

viv said...

Just for a laugh, cast you vote for the smuggest person in UK. Sadly, Clarence Mitchell, Gerry McCann and Tony Bennett are not on the list. But you can post a comment which immediately comes up, unmoderated!


Wizard said...

Hi All,

The accounts – I found a copy of them I filed.

The last accounts published were for the period ended 31 March 2008.

They were signed and dated by John McCann on 12th November 2008.

They were published in January 2009.

So we do have to wait until next year to see the funds last financial years cooking recipe. LOL

viv said...

funds last financial years cooking recipe.

lol Wiz, I imagine Gerry and Bro John, Clarence and Kate getting very hot and steamy in the kitchen contemplating how they will produce this masterpiece:_))

Brencardi said...

Hi everyone,

It will be interesting when the accounts are produced next year to see what figures are put down for the reconstruction/leaflet campaign they done.

Hot and steamy in the kitchen, my god just had dinner, please the thought boggles the mind. Mind you doubt if they cook anyway remember Gerry and Kate having a takeaway delivered by waiter (rofl).

Wizard said...

So the Mc’s have withdrawn their 2007 complaint against Tal&Qual. The article below from today's Diário de Notícias comes courtesy of the Joana Morias blog.

It’s interesting to note that when someone stands their ground and do not settle out of court the Mc’s back down.

I suspect the same will happen with their action against Amaral.

McCanns withdraw complaint against journalists from Tal&Qual

The McCann couple has decided to withdraw the complaint against the Tal & Qual journalists who reported that the police believed that Maddie McCann had been killed by her parents, according to a press release from the Public Ministry in Lagos.

The document states that Gerry and Kate McCann declared that they “have no interest in proceeding” with the case, which originated from a criminal complaint that was filed by the couple against Emídio Fernando, the former director of now extinct Tal&Qual, and journalist Ana Catarina Guerreiro.

In August 2007, the two journalists signed an article, which was front page news in the paper, according to which the Polícia Judiciária (PJ) believed that it had been the couple that had accidentally killed their daughter.

Emídio Fernando told Lusa that he was satisfied over the archiving of the process, although he never even felt relieved, because he had never been worried in the first place.

“I was always tranquil, because I never accused anyone. The news said that the PJ didn’t believe in the McCanns’ innocence. What we wrote in the news was that they were going to be heard and that they might become arguidos”, he said.

Emídio Fernando stressed that, at the time when he wrote the article, he fully trusted the source and he was “absolutely certain” that the police would fetch the couple, which was confirmed two weeks after the front page news.

“I wouldn’t change a comma if it were today. My only failure was to say that the couple would be heard in the week after [the article] and they ended up being heard two weeks later”, he added.

Concerning the motives for the McCanns’ withdrawal, Emídio Fernando says that he has no idea whatsoever, but he underlines that at the time, he understood that the couple wished to sue him, he merely found it was strange that they decided to do so one week after the article was published.

source: Diário de Notícias, 17.08.2009

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... ainst.html

Wizard said...


Are you still keeping up the walking?

Hope4truth said...

Hi Wiz

You are right when someone does not back down the McCann's have no option but to quit.

The DX could have saved itself a packet if it had opted for it's day in court.

I hope Amaral does not back down and get's them into a court room to answer a few questions.

It has not been a good weekend for them really first off the Mail prints the truth about just how bad their detectives are and now this...

They must be overjoyed that the Madeleine Foundation leafleted their village at least they can look like the victims they love to be and it will have created lots of sympathy for them from their loyal hangers on....

As for the accounts I think they should be forced to explain why they need so much leagal help? It wont help Madeleine and as for paying Uncle Jon to head up the fund it is a bloody farce...

Can you imagine how many experienced retired people there are out there that would only have been too happy to run the fund for free but no Uncle Jon had given up his very well paid job to run it for them???

Just shows why it has been run so badly what kind of idiot gives up a well paid job to run a fund to find his missing nice who could turn up alive and well the next week???

I would say one who knew his job would be safe for a long time to come...

Anyone else would either have done it part time or taken time out to help with it (I cant see any firm saying NO with all the publicity surrounding Madeleine) can you???


Di said...

Hi all

I will be honest, I was expecting some sort of news report today saying that Kate had been pushed over the edge etc., by the leaflet drop. I thought they would use this as a get out clause, to back off so to speak, leave fragile Kate alone she can't take anymore.

Well I am totally wrong, absolutely nothing in the press whatsoever. Hmmmm just exactly what is going on?

Di said...

Hi Hope

I agree, when J Corner gave up his WELL paid job, alarm bells were ringing for me.

In fact, I have continual bells ringing in my head, there is just soooo much wrong with this whole case.

It is interesting to see that there are many more people now reading 3A's since the leaflet drop, perhaps it was not such a bad idea after all.

Hope4truth said...

Hello Di

I am so pleased you have alarm bells ringing in your head I thought it was just me and I had tinitus LOL


viv said...

Hiya Bren

Presumably Mentorn Media must have footed some of the bill for the McCann televised reconstruction they always wanted to put on as part of their ongoing media show.

Of course if they had all gone back as requested and done a proper reconstruction the PJ would have paid, so if that does show up in the accounts it is going to be one more thing to really annoy people. They are simply not prepared to engage on any level, with proper police enquiries unless of course they are forced to. The UK Police have wide ranging powers in relation to what they may require from Kate and Gerry McCann, others too.

When you refer to paying for the leaflet campaign, are you referring to the one Tony Bennett laid on for them. I think it would be so ungrateful of them in terms of the good PR they require and endless sympathy to require the police to take any action against him:-))

viv said...

Wiz, I am not walking again at the moment. I overdid it early one morning, getting lost in a large wood and finished walking for about three hours! It seems to have made my operated on ankle very painful again unfortunately. I keep saying I will go swimming but never seem to get around to it, which is funny because when I am on holiday it is pretty much all I want to do!

Fascinated to know the McCanns have withdrawn that complaint, against the Newspaper itself that is understandable because there would have been no cash from an insolvent paper. But it again demonstrates the McCanns make hasty legal decisions they learn to regret. They lost the High Court battle with LP/SOCA/Attorney General etc and needed a paid spinner to try and put the best gloss on the judge overturning her previous order to allow disclosure and making Maddie a Ward of Court.

The actions of these editors were not criminal at all. They simply printed the truth, the McCanns were suspected by the police of homicide etc. I doubt it is so much the McCanns backed down as the Pt authorities saying they have legal basis for making such a complaint and I bet they have been fighting hard with their lawyers trying to say oh yes we do.

But they are in the same battle I believe with a much more important figure in the case than that, of course, Goncalo Amaral. We are all waiting with baited breath for the humiliating defeat in that matter, because to all intents and purposes he has done no more than explain exactly why the police formed that view and much of what he has said in his book is on the police file.

In fact full details of what the dogs found etc were in the Daily Mail, The Telegraph, The Times etc etc in September 2007, so this is nothing new to the British Public, it is just that certain people seem to believe the public are so thick they did not hear it first time around.

In total, the current press is going extremely badly for Kate and Gerry McCann, let it keep on coming, it is no more than what they deserve.

Maybe someone should just print a leaflet saying if you are running short of cash to find Maddie, why do you still employ a spokesman, why not save that cost? Of course the costs of Mitchell are worth every penny to Kate and Gerry because if there is one thing we all know they are not doing, that is looking for poor little Maddie.


The only thing that interests Kate and Gerry is where they can con some more money from to keep up their utterly farcical "defence". Two paid stooges to sit there and put on "The Australian Job". Word has it Victoria Beckham could play a serious role in this one instead of relying on hubby for talent!

viv said...

Great post 20/06 Hope:

"hey must be overjoyed that the Madeleine Foundation leafleted their village at least they can look like the victims they love to be and it will have created lots of sympathy for them from their loyal hangers on...."

I could not have put it better myself, that coupled with his wish to just have them prosecuted for their cover story, neglect, has always caused me to wonder which side he is really on. But I suppose it is just the self serving I want to sell my books side. Did you see you can get a special deal The Maddie and the Barrymore saga for one great price of just six quid! Struggling to give this literary talent for such exact criminal reporting away? People are just so ungrateful! Maybe they already read the back copies of the Mail and the Mirror?

"what kind of idiot gives up a well paid job to run a fund to find his missing nice who could turn up alive and well the next week???

I would say one who knew his job would be safe for a long time to come..."

Bang on and simply priceless Hope, again, maybe someone should do a leaflet asking that precise question? I do find asking questions is better than telling us what we already know, fifth hand and with a slant.

viv said...

Hiya Di:

"will be honest, I was expecting some sort of news report today saying that Kate had been pushed over the edge etc., by the leaflet drop. I thought they would use this as a get out clause, to back off so to speak, leave fragile Kate alone she can't take anymore.

Well I am totally wrong, absolutely nothing in the press whatsoever. Hmmmm just exactly what is going on?"

Ummm tut Di, do you not realise Clarence has learned a new pet phrase, I am not saying anything, for operational reasons, but who knows he might have had another nice chat with the benevolent Mr Bennett on the telephone.

It will be interesting to see how the McCanns decide to milk this one or whether they hang him out to dry!


viv said...

Speaking of smug though, Clarence, I am not going to dignify this man with a response, LOL

There are those who do not wear their inflated sense of authority lightly!

Keep up with the papal/Royal WE
Pink One, it does make me laugh!

viv said...

Very interesting find by Tara on 3As, Cowley set up a limited company in June 2009 presumably at the same time as he started working for Kate and Gerry McCann. Yes, I am looking forward to seeing those accounts and I am sure the McCanns are currently engaged on some creative accounting to demonstrate to us all this money they have been paying people to look for Maddie (!)

Of course as The Daily Mail point out, Cowley is not exactly value for money, more like off on a Spanish jolly and sod messing about looking for Maddie on some fool's errand, what do they take me for! Still at least he now has a limited company to launder his fees through:-)) Working out these employment relationships is so complex, Edgar is the employee of Kate and GErry and Cowley is the employee of Edgar um, what, I am not sure now!

viv said...

Arthur John Cowley
Aged 57
Company Name: AlphaIG Limited
Company Number: 06929397
Company Incorporation Date: 10 June 2009

Arthur Cowley is the SOLE director

viv said...

This Rothley lady just talks plain common sense, and it just goes to show you do not need to be posh or degree educated to manage to do that.

She talks about what the McCanns plainly are guilty of, the disappearance of little Maddie and says she is prepared to keep an open mind as to murder or whether she is still alive. What a pity others cannot be so sensible!

I think she really does deserve a big round of applause for being so brave:


Di said...

Hi Viv

I had not thought about the possible headlines today regarding Kate's fragile state etc., what a missed opportunity. As you say, what is going on? Clarence would have normally milked this for all it was worth.

Could there really be something about to break?

viv said...

Hiya Di

My gut instinct tells me that the latest publicity stunt by the McCanns was an act of sheer desperation which descended even deeper into the realms of utter farce than we have seen before. And one would hardly think that could be possible.

I can only think of one good reason why the McCanns are so utterly desperate and that has to be the activities of Leicester Police and probably other British Agencies given the sheer scale of this case. LP have clearly needed a lot of support to cope with it, both financially and in terms of the expertise of the NPIA, SOCA etc.

As to Tony Bennett, I would think that regardless, they have a very good case for complaining to the police of harassment, but again, the question is, why do they not do so?

Again, I would say that has to be to do with police action against them!

viv said...

Di, I would just add I think it is very possible action is now being taken against Tony Bennett, Debbie Butler etc but given this would be of a criminal nature the usual rules would apply and Mitchell would be warned not to use this as part of some publicity stunt. In short if you want the police to do something about it, shut up and let us get on with it.

It has never been the case in law that you can use your own wrongdoing as any form of excuse for your behaviour!

jack said...

dont you think the mccann's have cause to take action against you for accusing gerry of being a paedo?

viv said...

It is former friends of Gerry, Dr Gaspar who has given evidence to the police that Gerry and Payne were making paedophilic suggestions regarding Madeleine, then aged, just two.

Yvonne Martin, a child protection worker has also given evidence in relation to her concerns about the conduct of David Payne.
So, no, there is no action they can take against me for being concerned about that.

Di said...

Hi Jack

I don't think Viv has said anything that is not already out there in the Police files, perhaps you should read the Gaspers statement.

Di said...

Hi Jack

Would you like to tell us what you think happened to Madeleine. We don't bite.

Sorry I spelt Gaspar incorrectly.

viv said...

Hiya Di,

There is clearly a distinction to be drawn in exercising our right to freedom of speech on the internet regarding information that is in the public domain and doing what Tony Bennett is doing - writing letters and sending booklets directly to the McCanns and leafleting the McCanns direct neighbours with his own version of what is in the police files. Effectively saying well if you do not like it, then sue me. That, by anyone's definition is serious harassment that could have a serious adverse affect on the McCanns ability to properly protect the twins from harm.

Mr Bennett's position is that the police and the government are corrupt and protecting Kate and Gerry from any prosecution, so he must take the law into his own hands. Not only is that a ridiculous position to adopt, it is vigilanteism. The day when people are allowed to start taking action against people and evading normal legal procedures is the day we get serious anarchy in the UK. Any criminal suspect is entitled to live in peace in their own home.

But, yes, I would welcome Jack's own views on this case, i.e. does he think Dr Gaspar and Yvonne Martin made those statements to the police maliciously or, like me, does he think that as professional people we have the right to accept their evidence is likely to be cogent and honest?

I actually think it was a brave decision for the Gaspars to take, as doctors themselves, effectively informing on some pretty serious conduct by their own former friends and colleagues which quite obviously may have relevance to Madeleine's disappearance.

viv said...

Di - have you noted this massive Crimes Against Children Conference taking place, see a particularly interesting agenda item below:

I wish I could attend and listen to all these workshops, it would be fascinating!


(The) False Allegation of Child Abduction
Kathleen E. Canning
This presentation will illustrate the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU)-3's current research regarding parents or caregivers who claim their child has been abducted or “gone missing” to cover up a homicide.

viv said...

It seems odd that it could be said Mark Williams Thomas's apparent expertise to deliver at this conference has been built up in relation to cases where the parents are the culprits. Is he changing his approach in relation to the McCanns where it has to be said, one way or anoth:

Mark Williams-Thomas

As a Criminologist, Child Protection Expert and former police Detective, Mark has far-reaching experience of working at the centre of high profile investigations. During Mark’s police service, he specialised in child protection and major crime and he is renowned throughout the UK’s police forces as well as the national media for his expertise in this area. Mark has a high profile in the media and is a regular face on television providing expert analysis and commentary on child protection and major crime to GMTV, BBC, Sky News, ITV and CNN. As well as being a presenter for ITV’s flag ship current affairs programme, ‘Tonight’. He has covered and been an advisor in high-profile cases such as the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and Shannon Matthews, Austrian Josef Frizl, who imprisoned and abused his daughter for 24 years, the Jersey Care Home abuse enquiry and the investigation into the death of Baby P. Mark is a leading authority on Child Abductions in the UK and it is with this experience and his in depth knowledge of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and Shannon Matthews that forms the backbone of his presentation.

viv said...

Oh LOL, Gerry wants to stress there are some non governmental organisations helping in the search for Madeleine, you just could not make this stuff up! Bennett and Gerry get so close together in their non governmental strategies, you could hardly find a hair between them! Paypal buttons and the government and the police cannot do the job properly, yea right:-)))

18th August Re: 'Madeleine Foundation'
We do not wish to dignify the actions of the so-called ‘Madeleine Foundation' with any response. We do feel it is important, however, that the general public are made aware that the ‘Madeleine Foundation' has no connection whatsoever with our family or those helping us to find Madeleine, including law enforcement agencies or child welfare NGO's (non-governmental organisations). We also strongly believe that the actions of this organisation do not have Madeleine's best interest at heart; if anything, the organisation is hindering all our efforts to find Madeleine and achieve justice.

viv said...

and in BigL's considered opinion:
(you just have to laugh, dont you!!) Still one of the best commentators on the McCann debacle in my humble opinion:-)))

Post subject: Re: Gerry’s new blog/Update 18-08-09
Location: brigadoon scotland
he,s just updated his blog after reading so 3a,s members will fund a royal mail leaflet campaign to all uk households

he,s appealing for a million squid too buy 50,000 hammers and 3 million nails and 100,000 volunteer to nail up everybodys letter boxes . transport will be provided as long as you can stand the smell of cadaver =)) =)) =))

viv said...

So, I just want to know Gerry, can we be clear here, is there a "law enforcement agency" looking for Madeleine or is there not??? Because here you say there is not and then you say there is....oh hang on a minute, do you mean this "law enforcement agency". Maybe that is just a little disingenuous, the man who went to Spain and could not be bothered to do any serious investigations for you??:

Arthur John Cowley
Aged 57
Company Name: AlphaIG Limited
Company Number: 06929397
Company Incorporation Date: 10 June 2009

Arthur Cowley is the SOLE director

In a Sic interview filmed on 11 May 2009 and broadcast on 12 May 2009
Gerry McCann says this: 'It's also true to say that, you know, we are the only people pro-actively trying to get new leads, and that's... that's quite hard to say but, you know, the onu... the onus has fallen on us to keep looking for Madeleine.'

Kate McCann says this on:
The Oprah Show 04 May 2009

Oprah: Are the Portuguese Police still looking?

Gerry: Well what's happened is erm the file is officially closed and it, and that was a really difficult period because in Portugal they have a thing called Judicial Secrecy and you're not meant to know what's going on but that was closed last July and then we were given the files on DVD in Portuguese so we have a small err team which is funded from erm Madeleine's Fund and we really hope that people who were in Praia da Luz who might have information and we've asked the local community in Portuguese to come forward and again in combination with a sighting so you know this for us this is a very active search and Kate...

Kate: ...there's no....

Gerry: Kate spends...

Kate: ...there's no law enforcement agency though actively looking for Madeleine I mean obviously you know

Gerry: the onus is on us which you know is pretty frustrating actually

Kate: ...we're driving this

Gerry: ...but as parents you've just got, got to do everything.

viv said...

Kate: ...we're driving this

hummm maybe you are kidding yourself Kate, I think the real police are actually driving it!

But good Freudian slip nevertheless!

jack said...

i think that maddie died in the apartment as a result of being left alone to fend for herself. i also think that if the mccann's wanted they could sue you and win easily. you have not only called gerry a paedo you have also in the past called him a murderer. the difference is that bennett has the courage you lack. you only have the power of your convictions writing anonymously behing a computer screen. and that i call hypocrisy

Hope4truth said...

Hello Jack are you a Tony Bennett fan by any chance???

viv said...

Jack, whilst in my house, watch your ps and qs please, I will not tolerate abuse. Do not misquote anything I have said or be abusive again. If you want to have your say on here, do so accurately and politely otherwise it will be deleted.

jack said...

hello hope4truth. not really. but im a fan of anyone who is brave enough to act on their beliefs even if i don't agree with them. any coward can write anonymously on the internet and say what they wish. look at so many spineless pros.

viv said...

Good post which accurately sums up my concerns about the motives of the Madeleine Foundation..Maybe they should consider Kate's parents had nothing at all to do with the disappearance of Madeleine and simply do not deserve a punishment beating? It is really quite disgusting behaviour towards an elderly couple in the most appalling and distressing situation one could ever imagine.

viv said...

Post subject: Re: Why Rothley?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:19 pm
Mafia Boss
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:25 am
Posts: 3034
Stella by Starlight

Sorry, your final sentence there seems to me to be extremely vindictive.

So far no-one - least of all Stevo who now wants to see the neighbours of all the relatives of the McCanns and the neighbours of the witnesses of the McCanns specifically targetted, nor Beachy who, amazingly, seems to think that the residents of Rothley are the least well-informed people in the UK about the case - has come up with a single cogent reason WHY these neighbourhoods should be targetted and Rothley be the first place to be singled out in this specific way. (Yes, other places have received leaflets, but not in this way, nor with this flurry of publicity.)

Giving information by leaflet, I agree with. Targetting in this way, I do not!


Can someone explain why these specific areas are needing this public targetting?

What makes the targetting of Rothley and Liverpool and Exeter and Skipton so much more effective in the seeking of justice for Madeleine McCann than the targetting of other locations in the UK? These are the very areas where the locals are MOST likely to have read up about the case, not the least. It has been something that has affected the people of Rothley FAR more than any other location in the UK. They had the media on their doorsteps for months. Don't tell me that they need information more than other areas! Too many posts on threads over the last few days have portrayed these locals as stupid. No proof of that exists. What do you expect them to have done??

Is this targetting so that these neighbours will harass the McCanns and their friends, will constantly ask them questions, will shout at them in the streets, will maybe send them to Coventry? Was it deliberately timed to be just before the children start school in that area to get the gossip machine working? To an outsider of the MF like myself that is precisely how it looks. To a regular reader of the Express (which I am not) that is how the story with the Stalker headline will have read.

Or was the aim simply to get the maximum publicity?

Publicity to what end?

To get the main leafletter nationally known as a stalker and a crank and to increase support for the McCanns? How is being shown to be a stalker and a crank helping re-open the case in Portugal? How is such bad publicity making it more likely that the Prosecutors there will open the case?

Fine, you might get a few more (maybe even a few hundred more) looking in on forums and questioning, but compared to the few hundred targetted in Rothley (or who Stevo wants targetting in Liverpool and Exeter and Skipton) literally millions have seen yet another headline in the press about Tony Bennett (and this time Debbie Butler as well) as vile despicable people and even as a stalker. Literally millions who will not be moved to read the leaflet and will simply accept what they read. So on balance not a great result. Even the chance of a court case and further publicity, will almost certainly result not in millions being handed over to the MF (dream on) but in further humiliation for Debbie and her family.

This negative publicity about the leafletting, incidentally, almost washed out one of the few well-researched articles about the McCann case that has been seen in the UK media and which clearly was instigated before news of this targetting of Rothley.

I remain to be convinced by anyone that the main reason for this specific leaflet drop was NOT simply maximum publicity. And till I am persuaded otherwise I will remain of the view that this was a step too far which has not helped towards the opening of the case in Portugal in any way, shape or form.

That is why I am here - to seek justice for Madeleine McCann and I can't see how a member of the MF being humiliated as a stalker has moved the possibility of that justice on at all.

Di said...

Hi Jack

So you agree that Madeleine died in the apartment because of their parents neglect...

Hello... since when has Viv written as an anon..

jack said...

viv where have i been abusive? have you not called gerry a paedo and a murderer? isn't that against the law? its quite clear you cant deal with opposition which is why this place has become what it has become. and this was one of the great places to discuss the case. i used to be a reader even tho i never registered. delete away.

viv said...

Can you please refer to the posts where I say quote "Gerry is a paedo and a murderer"?

jack said...

you mean you never said gerry had abused maddie and that he had killed her - back in the day when this blog had dozens of posters and that was your opinion. you did and you know it. and if i had time on my hand i would go through my documents to find dozens of posts confirming that. maybe i will.

Hope4truth said...

I guess if you put your name to something you deserve respect for doing so.

Not sure the leaflets have done what they wanted them to do they have given the McCann's a fantastic op to show themselves as the victims once again especialy on a day when the Mail actually printed what we all know the investigators are not actually investigating...

I feel very sorry for Debbie Butler and although I dont agree with the leaflets she did a very good job defending them with an ignorant reporter not wanting her to get a word in and has been treated in a discusting manor by the press. The same press who praise child neglect as something we all do.

I have never been a faceless blogger before this happend and it is not in my character to judge parents of missing or dead children but the McCann's own actions made me believe from the first time I heard about this something was not right and by October 2007 found all the positive reporting of them laughing and smiling very disturbing...

If they ever fancy sueing me I will be happy to go to court as there are so many things that need answers starting with the 48 questions and I would love to know what was so funny on Maddies 4th Birthday because I thought it was sad she was not at home having a party and they seemed to be having the time of their lives.

I really belive she died as if she was still alive they would have to be the most evil people in the world to play with her life in this way.

Have to wonder how on earth they cary on each day for Kate whatever happend her daughter has gone and as a Mother I dont know how you get past that...

jack said...

if you don't mind my family is waiting.

Di said...


Could you please elaborate...which is why this place has become what it has become?

What has this place become?

viv said...

I think you should be careful what you say Jack because there is a distinction to be drawn in me saying what I think Gerry might have done, as you are now suggesting, and me categorically stating what he has done as a fact. Mr Bennett and Debbie have produced a leaflet and Debbie is on record as stating those are the facts, and I am afraid they are not!!

You can go through just as many posts on here as you like!

jack said...

viv i mean including those you deleted. you know those that were more emphatic. really have to go

viv said...

The only time I have deleted my own posts is to correct errors in them and that is a fact.

I am not sure who or what you support but find you very unpleasant with your various assertions. This blog has always been a place for pleasant people and those who get deleted are the unpleasant ones.

jack said...

when i have the time i will have to prove youre lying. i have posts you deleted. posts that are a bit too strong lets call it. and i have screenshots too. and before you ask i have them and many many others from other places for professional reasons. now gone

viv said...

That is the last post you make on here Jack, I am sorry you could not heed my warning.

jack said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Wizard said...

Jack et al are just wind up merchants – this is what gives them pleasure in life.

They are not interested in debating facts, putting forward a plausible scenario. They just threaten people to silence them like any common a garden bully or thug.

It is good to have different opinions on events but these opinions should be reasoned and not argued with threats – overt or covert.

Humans have the largest brain in relation to body mass in the animal kingdom and are therefore the most intelligent. However not everyone is the same and unfortunately many who cannot reason bully and threaten to get their opinions across.

Thank god we are not all like this and are able to keep an open mind, reason and are capable of thinking outside the box.

Bully and thugs sometimes win a battle but not the war.

Wizard said...

good Morning All,

I was just looking at the Philomena McCann interview from This Morning (8/9/07)

Philomena: “The only protection it offers is that they’re allowed to take legal representation in with then when they’re being questioned by the police and the other thing that it does is that allows them not to answer questions in case they incriminate themselves. But that’s not what Kate and Gerry want to do. The police are trying to suggest that Kate has in some way accidentally killed Madeline. How ludicrous is that when one of their friends actually saw Madeline being carried up the street but some unknown assailant?”

Hmm…. “Not to answer questions in case they incriminate themselves.” This speaks volumes.

Philomena: “He’s going in at 2pm today. But he’s not the main suspect, for some unknown reason there’s something about a sniffer dog sniffing Kate. Suddenly a dog can talk and says she smelled a death. How can that be when a British sniffer dog came out months after Madeline’s case? They’re doctors, if there’s a smell of death on them could that possibly be a patient?”

Hmm…. “....if there’s a smell of death on them could that possibly be a patient?” - Is this the originating spark of an ideal where the 6 dead patients came from prior to the holiday?

ICantThinkOfAName said...

A big Hi to all my friends. I have not deserted the ship (I often log in to read) but have run out of fresh things to say so that's the reasons for no posts.
On a personal note my big project fizzled out and Georgie Boy has now been sold on.

I hope you will be fully mobile soon.

the chocolate fireman.

Di said...

Hi all


Their comments about whether a law enforcement agency is looking for Madeleine are incredible. Why do the papers not pick up on such conflicting remarks.


Good to see you again.

Sorry things did not work out for you and Georgie Boy had to be sold, at least we get to have you back.


A few cages have been rattled I think.

viv said...

ICTOAN!! How lovely to see you back, we do miss old friends!

Thanks for your kind wishes and I do keep trying!

I am sorry your project did not work out but am sure you will have plenty of others to work on. Even so it is really lovely you dropped by to say hello.

Wiz - good comments about the need of some to just threaten and bully, he certainly put that point across if nothing else!

It is almost like Philomena's comments relate to, in her head, who she thinks must have done it. It would seem to suggest Gerry had a conversation with her about how Kate had refused to answer the questions so as not to incriminate herself. So thanks for that Philo, not that you would be just a little biased, but in many respects that does make sense.

viv said...

Di, I think the papers have been warned not to comment whatsoever on the ongoing investigation. Because to do so would invite further speculation and harassment of the McCanns which could prevent them getting a fair trial, apart from the obvious risks to them personally. The police can obviously see there is a lot of resentment against them and as we know the McCanns already had to have panic buttons to the police installed, a long time ago.

If Maddie had genuinely been abducted by a stranger that would not be in the jurisdiction of British Police at all. So if they talk about the ongoing investigation people will obviously work out that is against Kate and Gerry.

viv said...

Just to make that a little clearer, if the offence against Maddie happened in Portugal and her parents were not involved, then that makes it entirely within the jurisdiction of Portugal to deal with and find the offender.

But, if her British parents offended against Maddie in Portugal by killing her then that means the British Police have jurisdiction to deal with them, but to admit that would be to just add further to the furore.

viv said...

As that comment about how the McCanns needed panic buttons brings us full circle to what this post was originally about, putting up a new one.

How Portugal perceives the British Press criticising the McCanns so called investigation. They may not be able to comment on the ongoing police investigation but they can paint us a big picture concerning the one the McCanns claim to be conducting!