4 Jul 2010

MCCANNS TRY AGAIN TO GET THEIR MITTS ON BRIT AGENCY FILES WITH THE TORIES!


Kate and Gerry McCann to meet Home Secretary Theresa May in a bid to reopen Maddie case

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 2:45 PM on 4th July 2010



Kate and Gerry McCann will meet with Home Secretary Theresa May amid speculation a new investigation could be opened into the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine.

The Home Office confirmed Mrs May will meet with the couple to discuss how the search for their daughter, who has been missing for more than three years, is progressing.

The couple requested to meet with the new Home Secretary as part of their push for a review of all the information in the hands of the British and Portugese authorities.
The search continues: Kate and Gerry McCann are calling for a fresh probe into the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine

The search continues: Kate and Gerry McCann are calling for a fresh probe into the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine

Former Labour Home Secretary Alan Johnson last year ordered an internal review of evidence and an outline of how a new investigation into Madeleine's disappearance might work.

It is understood the report is almost complete, and could pave the way for a fresh probe into the case.
Meeting: Theresa May has taken a close interest in Maddie's case since becoming Home Secretary

Meeting: Theresa May has taken a close interest in Maddie's case since becoming Home Secretary

But the Metropolitan Police said it had no plans to reopen the investigation.

Madeleine was nearly four when she went missing from her family's holiday flat in Praia da Luz in the Algarve, Portugal, on the night of May 3 2007 as her parents dined with friends nearby.

Despite a massive police investigation and huge publicity worldwide, the little girl has still not been found.

The McCanns, from Rothley, Leicestershire, believe she was abducted from their rented holiday apartment while they ate dinner with friends at a nearby restaurant.

They travelled back to Portugal ahead of the third anniversary of her disappearance to ask police to reopen their investigation, which was shelved in July 2008 when the couple were formally cleared as suspects.

The couple have spearheaded a high-profile search to find their daughter, but have told of their frustration that no police force is actively looking for Madeleine.

In a poignant message to her daughter on the May 3 anniversary, Mrs McCann said: 'We love you very much, Madeleine, and we're not going to stop what we're doing.'
Madeleine McCann

Missing: Madeleine McCann has not been seen since May 3, when she disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal




Here's what readers have had to say so far. Why not add your thoughts below, or debate this issue live on our message boards.

The comments below have been moderated in advance.



They should try a Psychic Detective. There are thousands of missing children and why should the Police spend to much time only looking for their daughter. It is their fault that she was left alone.

- Charlie, London, 04/7/2010 15:53
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I wonder how you get to meet the Home Secretary. I hope Theresa May will give all crime in this country as much time and attention as she gives the McCanns .I understand why the McCanns feel they can never give up on Madeleine, but if only they gave their little girl this much attention before she went missing.

- Jenny, Hants, 04/7/2010 15:52
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According to the Home Office's Mr Ian Lister an investigation is already underway..why is there the need for another one?

What I find interesting is that the McCanns have had ample opportunity to request that the Portuguese re-open the case, they have thus far declined to do so. This leads me to believe that this latest proposal is nothing more than a white wash. It has always been clear that any such investigation must be conducted under the terms and conditions of the McCanns and a number of establishment figures. This is why Snr. Amaral was removed from the case; he failed to conform.

- Bradford, Japan, 04/7/2010 15:42
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Not again!! What about all the other 1000's of missing kids throughout the world - none of those parents are continually looking for publcity.

- commonsense, Alicante Spain, 04/7/2010 15:41
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Of course the Metropolitan Police has no plans to reopen the investigation because it is not their investigation to reopen. It remains the decision of the Portuguese authorities (and not the Portuguese police) to reopen the case if/when new, relevant and consistent information is received.

We also need to be clear here that what the McCanns want is a review into the whereabouts of Madeleine (i.e. a review of the 'search/sightings') - NOT for the whole case to be reopened to look into the circumstances of Madeleine's disappearance.

In a recent interview with Portuguese TV, in March this year, the McCanns were asked whether there were any of the publicised sightings of Madeleine that made them feel that it could really be her. Gerry, despite initially saying that "there's been one or two I've looked at twice", when pressed, could not remember a single sighting and Kate only remembered that "There was one, wasn't there? Errr... I don't know if that was Amsterdam or Brussels."

- Nige, UK, 04/7/2010 15:40
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Well lets just hope if this case is looked at again, the WHOLE case is and not just bits.

The whole sage needs looking at from the very beginning. Lets get this case re-opened and finally find out what did happen to that little girl. Someone knows something in my opinion.

- N Williams, UK, 04/7/2010 15:39
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Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1291889/Kate-Gerry-McCann-meet-Home-Secretary-Theresa-May-discuss-Maddie-case.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz0skOdNVlM

190 comments:

Di said...

Hi Viv

Thanks for the new report.

Have you seen the Sky report, last paragraph as follows:-

Although both Portuguese and British police have closed their investigations, money raised by the Madeleine Foundation has been put towards hiring private investigators to continue the search.

What!! Does TB know about this?

viv said...

Hello Di

Just reading and trying to catch up with you lot on the other page lol!

I have just read the Sky Report and it is an interesting slip. Is Tony Bennett actually contributing and if so, is he doing so willingly?

Posting below the article from March when the McCanns were last on the file grabbing agenda, they are clearly worried!

viv said...

Saturday, 6 March 2010
Home Office launches secret review into Madeleine McCann's disappearance
The Home Office has secretly begun a review that could lead to a fresh police inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

By Robert Mendick
Published: 9:00PM GMT 06 Mar 2010

Image
Missing Madeleine McCann Photo: PA

The move follows the release of 2,000 pages of evidence last week which Portuguese detectives are accused of having failed to fully investigate.

According to sources close to the McCanns, Alan Johnson, the Home Secretary, has ordered officials to examine the 'feasibility' of British or Portuguese detectives looking afresh at all the evidence.

Kate and Gerry McCann met with Mr Johnson last year to plead for help in their search for Madeleine, who vanished without trace in May 2007 from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal.

The couple have also met with John Yates, the Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner, who has headed up a number of high profile inquiries in recent years.

He is said to be "sympathetic" and to have made "general offers of assistance".

The source said: "The latest we have heard from the Home Office is officials are undertaking a 'scoping exercise' to look into the possibility of a review of the case.

"They are looking at all the options. It is basically a feasibility study.

"Kate and Gerry met with Alan Johnson to request a review is done. Hopefully any political intervention can unlock obstructions that might be in the way."

Pressure is now being put on Portuguese authorities to agree in the first instance to a three-day review of the case that could be held at Interpol's headquarters in Lyon in France.

The McCanns will hope the Home Office can persuade their Portuguese counterparts to co-operate in a case review.

cont'd..

viv said...

The review – were it to go ahead – would involve British police working with Portuguese counterparts as well as experts in child abduction across other European forces.

The Portuguese police have been heavily criticised for their handling of the case which led to detectives naming the McCanns, both doctors from Leicestershire, as arguidos – or suspects – in the case and accusing them of involvement in her disappearance.

Their arguido status was subsequently lifted and the police investigation shelved.

But with the senior officer in charge Goncalo Amaral now widely discredited and facing financial ruin after being sued for libel by the McCanns over a book he wrote, it may become harder for the Portuguese to refuse the request for a thorough review.

The revelation that possible leads – many passed to Portuguese police by the McCanns' own private detectives – had apparently been ignored will add to the clamour.

Last week, details emerged of a series of possible sightings of Madeleine, who was just three when she vanished.

A further obstacle was removed with the death from stomach cancer two weeks ago of Guilhermino Encarnacao, who was in charge of the Policia Judiciaria in the Algarve.

Mr Encarnacao was convinced Madeleine had died in her parents' apartment and was a major source of a series of off the record briefings to journalists against the McCanns.

A Home Office spokesman said: "We can confirm that the Home Secretary had a private meeting with Kate and Gerry McCann.

"Leicestershire Police stand ready to co-ordinate and complete enquiries if further information comes to light in the UK; or if requested to do so by the Portuguese authorities, who continue to lead on the overall investigation."

The spokesman refused to discuss what talks took place at the meeting or whether there was the chance of a review of the evidence at Interpol.

The spokesman added: "We are not going to comment on the outcome of any private meeting with the McCanns."

Mr Yates was unavailable for comment. He led the cash for honours investigation and was also involved in a new inquiry into the murder of Julie Ward, who was murdered in Kenya in 1988.

viv said...

A further obstacle was removed with the death from stomach cancer two weeks ago of Guilhermino Encarnacao, who was in charge of the Policia Judiciaria in the Algarve.


What an incredibly shocking comment, surely this must have come straight from the lips of Gerry McCann. Mr Encarnacao believed very firmly on the basis of all the evidence, the McCanns were involved.

docmac said...

RIP, Guilhermino.

I believe you were 100% right.

To Carter-Ruck-And-Clan-Kate (C-R-A-C-K), let's just say this is my 'gut feeling', as Rosiepops would be wont to say ;-)

viv said...

Oh hello Doc, that was quick!

Posting a couple of really good posts from Jo Morais blog, one from our Hope and one from Jo herself, I may not entirely agree with Jo, but that does not detract from what a great post it is and she may well be right entirely, save for suggesting the McCanns were negligent. I can never accept that, it was just a front.

viv said...

04/07/2010 10:42
hope4truth said... 6

I give up what ever did Madeleine do that was so wrong she has had her victim status removed and is now a cash cow for her parents defence, spin and media campaigns..

There is no evidence of an abduction but plenty of evidence that something is not right with the McCanns and their friends....

Since when did a home secratary write to people who are more than likely responsible for whatever happend to their child? Did the then Home secratary write to Karen Mathews and ask her how she wanted to play things?

The very fact that Kate and Gerry do not want to help with the investigation in any way. The very fact their friends dont want to do a reconstruction and the very fact through CM we learn that they were very pleased with the work of Halligen who they paid 300k+ to is enough to cast serious doubt on their tall tale. After all what could Halligen have done for them he was a con man any genuine parent of a missing child would have wanted to tear the b*stard apart for wasting time...

Time is a huge factor in this they laughed on her 4th Birthday a short time after they told the world she had been taken from her bed by a peadophile ring.... Then they waste time 3 years 2 months is a long time to leave a child in the depths of hell we hear how they are going to ask for the case to be reopened all the time yet nothing....

If Madeleine was taken Gerry and Kate McCann must be the most evil people in the world as they have ensured she does not stand a single chance of being found as they have lied from the first moments they say she was taken. Kate wont answer a single question for her child, they never searched and are not bothered that her friends think so little of her they refuse to do a reconstruction.....

If they know she is dead or safe somewhere then they have no reason to do any of these things as it will not make any diffrence to her..

It is about time the fund was investigated and someone re opened the investigation on behalf of the victim Madeleine Beth McCann or is the future of child welfare in England doomed and every child who is abused, neglected or missing not important enough for the truth whilst their parents are treated like the victims?

viv said...

Joana Morais said... 13

Either this is another big tease [spin] or maybe the Home Office is preparing the ground to finally admit the girl's death; putting once and for all a deserving end to the LTD Fund and abhorrent merchandising of Madeleine's face and eyes [in the words of Gerry McCann «a good marketing ploy»], and to all the media circus that surrounded this case.

(I truly wish!) If, a big if here, Theresa May does her job correctly unlike her antecessor Jacqui(eline) Smith - a few examples of Jacqui's conduct as Home Secretary: the infamous rogatory letters deferrals and subsequent monthly delays; the witness that were never contacted or the reluctancy in delivering the vital statements; the Tapas 9 financial records requested by OP that were put on hold and resumed in one A4 page; Madeleine's medical records that were never sent; the secretive use of intelligence like the MI5 surely not to help Operation Task joint investigation; dispatching the former M.M.U. director to control the media and damages, the sudden discharge of all the British diplomatic personnel that was involved on the case since the early days of May; etc, etc.

As I was saying if Theresa May works accordingly and obliging to the international framework of cooperation agreements signed between both our countries, maybe then there will be a real chance of Justice for Madeleine.

The official authorities will only be able to continue their professional work investigating the little girl's disappearance [and cadaver search] without further political and diplomatic pressures, buffoonery PR's obstructions and outrageous media spins.

And when I say official authorities I am referring specifically to the PJ - the judicial authority that has the jurisdiction to investigate criminal cases like Madeleine McCann's disappearance, in what is still a Sovereign Nation with its own Law and Justice system; and also to the other authorities that have previously cooperated with the Portuguese Judiciary Police [NPIA/NSY-MET/INTER-EUROPOL] in this case. The rent-a-cops or dodgy private PI's, like Metodo 3 or Kevin Halligen, hired by the McCanns have no legal status in Portugal, nor they have any credibility left whatsoever, in my opinion.

In the last 3 years we have watched a farcical and hypocrite globalized media campaign that was originally implemented to whitewash the image of a negligent couple in detriment of the real victim - their daughter Madeleine; the 3 year old girl to whom the McCann couple as parents owed, at least, security and protection.

Ultimately, Kate Healy and Gerald McCann were and are responsible for the well being and physical integrity of Madeleine and the twins.

The mockery and sham made to the value of a little girl's life, that was immorally transformed into a merchandising asset since 2007 has already outlived any possible future excuses that envisage the perpetuation of a lie and that deny Madeleine a proper final resting place and the truth.

Tiocfaidh Ár Lá

viv said...

"Is this not just another spin on the McCanns wanting a review of the case on their terms."

Absolutely spot on IMO, Di.

They were corresponding with Alan Johnson from 2009, demanding a review with certain Portuguese personnel removed/ Leicester Police. Now they are doing the same with Theresa May.

IMO, what the McCanns are trying to say is put all of the evidence together and there are far more sightings of Madeleine, spooky characters than there is evidence against us and so on balance, we should be considered innocent and absolved of any blame to clear their names. Something they used to admit was very important to them. Of course it is, until such time as they can achieve that name clearing from official sources, they cannot make Maddie the Movie, the book etc etc ad nauseum.

Kate cannot even hold her head up at parents evenings....

and of course if you were a serious criminal, under investigation for the most terrible crime by British agencies, what would you fear the most? The unknown, what they hold on file. The McCanns continue to demand sight of those files, something that IMO, no Home Secretary will ever allow them to see.

I have said it before, what the McCanns need to learn is there is no separate legal procedure, reserved for them. They are subject to the law, the same procedure that applies to all criminal suspects. Until such time as they are formally charged and due to stand trial, they are not allowed to see the evidence to be used against them and whole police files are never in any circumstances disclosed, not even to the Prosecution!

S.B. said...

Hi..........,

The Mccanns only have to engineer another ficticious press release and the world responds accordingly. The flood gates open and letters/e-mails start flying about from all corners of the globe ~ understandably mostly from Portugal and the U.K.

I fail to understand what anyone expects to achieve by corresponding with the likes of Theresa May when information such as this does the rounds of the British press and has little or nothing to substantiate its validity. I am sure many of us have our suspicions but we do not know who originated this latest verbiage, nor indeed the previous examples of much the same content. I do not believe that anything can be achieved by contacting the Home Secretary or any other official, it only indicates an individuals inclination to accept as factual everything written in the press ~ which we all know to be unreliable!

A renowned personage such as TB would of course glory in the prospect of personal contact with such an important government representative but I think he be an exception to every rule and cannot therefore be trusted to lead by example.

No need panic everytime something new hits the press. Just kick your shoes off, relax, pour out a Martini and wait.............

docmac said...

Just saw this concerning the 'fox attack' couple:

Poster 1: Didn't anybody else notice that this is a pretty looking couple. Wonder if the people who attacked them are also posting on any of the MM forums.....

Poster 2: I would say it's a cast iron certanty (sic).


I am speechless...

OK, I am not. Call me inexperienced if you will, but those do not look like fox bites to me. And even if they were, how these posters can link this to...

I was wrong. I am speechless.

hope4truth said...

Hello

God knows what this is all about but it is spun from the McCanns point of view...

Jim Gamble said something about reviewing the evidence maybe he is not on the trail of a swarthy abductor though maybe he can see clearly how the McCanns have lied and belives they need investigating...

After all he works for exploited children not negligent and uncaring adults...

S.B. said...

Hello again.....,

In fact, just about every time we are fed yet another 'juicy morsel' to feed our insatiable lust for development in this case, I am reminded of Gerald Mccanns warped sense of omnipotence (or should that be sense of humour).

From the beginning he appears to have been taunting the public, authorities, government ~ in fact anybody even remotely concerned with their missing daughter. Apart from the much discussed photographic evidence of jovility so soon after her mysterious disappearance, I get the distinct impression time and time again that Gerald is deliberately provoking us as a source of amusement and a display of his self assumed control and power ~ in other words he's taking the wee-wee!

Be warned Gerald, your average person doesn't appreciate unwarranted ridicule ~ least of all the police!

viv said...

Hiya all

I too feel quite certain Gerry is taking the wee wee and have the distinct feeling he must have read so many bloggers and guffawed with delight as they revelled on the dog findings and their apparent "neglect" of Madeleine.

Keeping in the public eye is important for Gerry, not Madeleine, he always has one eye on the future, when in Gerry cuckoo land everyone finally believes what a lovely wee Scots lad he is and pays him loads of money for the sheer joy of listening to him. Ummm well I think that is all a bit of a narcissistic dream, always has been Gerry my love.

I doubt Alan Johnson, Teresa May or the Police envisage themselves fitting comfortably into the role of being Gerry puppets, even if many bloggers do!

viv said...

There are now people emailing Theresa May, thanking her for re-opening the case and actually presuming to tell her where on the internet she can access the statements to read!!

I have seen it reported Theresa has agreed to have a meeting with the McCanns (at their request and can we believe what the McCanns have put in the press??), she does not need to order the re-opening of the case in UK because it has never been closed. She cannot tell Portugal what to do.

But I have even seen it suggested that Britain should simply close their eyes to whatever else the McCanns may have done to Madeleine and just deal with the fraud. It still does not seem to occur that whether it was homicide or sex offending UK have full jurisdiction to deal with the McCanns for that and can you just take the couple to court for fraud without telling the court why it was fraud? Of course not, one court, all the evidence, in real life, bits do not get hived off.

I am simply flabbergasted by the presumptuous nature of some internet posters, do they not think the Home Secretary of all people has access to far more information on the case than they could even dream of? I would add almost certainly knows a great deal more about criminal law and jurisdiction than they could even dream of too and what she does not know, she will have QCs to advise her on!

Some people should save their "advice" for a Home Secretary and save their embarrassment if they could be a fly on the wall when her assistant is reading it...

Wizard said...

Gerry says it’s possible the abductor was in the apartment when he returned just after 9.00pm. He cannot recall any of the details that made him think this other than it fits his timeline – assuming of course he was not talking about himself – there’s a thought.

According to the Mcs the windows and doors were shut and locked and then later they tell us they were unlocked. There is much so confusion and error in their statements.

A reopening of the case should start from the beginning i.e. when Madeleine was last seen alive by independent witnesses.

To elicit any forgotten details I wonder if the T9 would go under hypnosis in an attempt to clarify their statements and position.

Now that would be interesting the truth might emerge! Perhaps when we see pigs fly it will happen!

I have forgotten the name of a drug aka the ‘truth drug’. If I was someone in the middle of police investigation and I wanted to clear my name to assist the police look for the true perpetrators I would insist that I was offered this drug with independent witnesses to make notes of all I said. If I had nothing to hide why not - it would allow the investigation to progress if I was found in the clear.

S.B. said...

Viv.....,

"There are people e-mailing Theresa May, thanking her for re-opening the case and actually presuming to tell her where on the internet she can access the statements to read"....

I cringed when I read that, how embarrassing! Perhaps there is a general misconception of the title 'Home Secretary' ~ perhaps the title implies someone who wheels the tea trolley around the House of Commons.

Apart from anything else, do members of the public truly think that a senior member of the government would agree to meet with such as the Mccanns, suspects in the disappearance of their own daughter, in order to formulate a way forward for a police investigation already in progress? In the words of the great philosopher of our time, Clarence Mitchell ~ "Ludicrous"!
Why do so many posters believe in the government conspiracy theory, the Gamble/Mccann liaison, the big police cover-up, the Masonic connection? Why can't they see what evidence has been presented, how the Mccanns and their entourage have persistently striven to proclaim their innocence by providing false information/evidence in order to delude the authorities and public ~ and they are still doing it! Surely after all these months the public should be able to deduce what kind of people the Mccanns are.

Yes Viv, our beloved Gerald is prone to recognized narcissistic behaviour and I think that says it all!

Di said...

Hi all

Hi Viv

Have you got your finger stuck on the sent button LOL.

Thanks for bringing the comments across Viv.

Well said Hope & Joana

hope4truth said...

Spot on Wizard

If I were doubted over the abduction of my child I would do everything asked of me to prove she was in danger and needed people to focus on whoever took her and stop looking at me....

I would also expect the same of my friends and anyone else who may have had access to my child that night....

Kate not answering any questions was a red flag moment and they bragged in the early days how they would take a lie detector test....

So smug about everything as they know there is no chance of a body being found or know they can bring her back at anytime....

But if truly innocent I would be demanding a truth drug or lie detector test any questions any time any place....

But as they have shown with their many false leads the last thing they want is Maddie found even praising a con mans work as pleasing when all he could have done was con them out of money that would have helped many missing children.....

Di said...

Hi Doc

I may have misunderstood your post, are you saying you don't think they were fox bites?

viv said...

Hiya all

Wiz, I think Gerry decided the abductor was in the flat when he did his so called 9.05 check because otherwise there would have been no opportunity for him to get in there. The reason he ultimately gave was the same was as Kate, apparently they know the exact degree of angle they left the door at. Pretty odd Kate could say that given Matt had supposedly also done a check in the meantime, Gerry too Lol.

Even so, as you point out, it is still completely unclear how this supposed abductor actually did get in. When it was clear the windows and shutter were not touched, we were told they left the patio door open, but of course, that yielded no forensic evidence. I have always found it very odd the McCanns have never actually said well he must have come through the patio door. No doubt because they also claimed they could see the rear of the apartment from their active monitoring position of their children, sat at the TAPAS restaurant, across the water and behind the hedge, probably with their back to the apt also.

A more confused pack of lies it is difficult to come across. Kate was actually offered a lie detector test by an independent company to clear her name, but having said she would take one, when push came to shove, big surprise, oh no I won't! This couples will not do anything at all to assist the investigation into themselves to clear their names because they were quite obviously involved.

viv said...

Ps Wiz, sodium pentathol

Lol Di, at 3 am I was getting a bit miffed repeatedly trying to get my comment to post, so then gave up and went to bed, then they slyly triplicated themselves, it is a conspiracy and the Masons are involved, I just know it. As for that Theresa May, she is quite obviously in on it with the McCanns, she probably fancies Gerry, lol?!

Seriously, SB, I sometimes have to pinch myself when reading some of these comments, are they having a laugh or are they just erm...

It just amazes me when you read comments like, "why have UK never even investigated the fraud!" I mean how the heck do they know what UK have and have not investigated. AT one stage, every single force in the country was working on the case, what the heck do these people think they were doing!! What do they think all these files contain that LP insist will not be released to the McCanns or the general public? Conspiracies to protect the McCanns, they must be mad!

Hope, we have to concede that Kate is a wicked woman, the police are investigating the disappearance of her own daughter and she repeatedly says "no comment" just like any serious criminal. When asked do you realise you are frustrating the investigation into the disappearance of your daughter, she acidly replies, "if the investigation says so". Was that a time for acid sarcasm or floods of tears and oh please I will do anything and answer any questions you like? Well we have to ask ourselves that depends on whether or not you are a normal caring mom who actually wants her child back, or whether you are something much less than that, that belongs under a stone.

hope4truth said...

Hi Viv

I have to wonder if the McCanns are really delighted to be granted an audience with the home sec???

They must know their actions are so bloody odd one day someone will call their bluff and say yes lets speak to Portugal and see if we can re open the investigation...

The fund I have no doubt is being investigated and although if they have harmed their child it is important this is investigated as well but the fund may be a way of proving they are lying and could bring them down.....

No parent would waste a penny of a fund creating false leads the need to create anything if your child is missing can only point to guilt. The look over there campaign paid for out of a fund raised to find a missing 4 year old child is nothing short of wicked if she is really missing....

Enough of the only questions asked of these people are scripted by them any Mother who refuses to answer a single question for her missing child is not fit to be a parent...

Lets get real your 4 year old child is missing and you say she is with Peadophiles do you beg for her to be returned to you or do you go on a world tour and say you have no reason to belive she has been harmed?

docmac said...

Hi Di

Please note I am NOT a fox bite fundi, but they look much more like something else to me...

viv said...

Lets get real your 4 year old child is missing and you say she is with Peadophiles do you beg for her to be returned to you or do you go on a world tour and say you have no reason to belive she has been harmed?

Brilliant Hope!

Doc, could you expand a little more, I must confess a fox entering a biting the children is extremely odd! They know the smell of humans well enough.

Wizard said...

Hi All,

About the news story of the twins attacked by a fox. I have to say it appears very strange behaviour by a fox but what imo is stranger is the human behaviour in this case.

In London recently the weather has been very hot and humid but no one I know would leave their patio doors open all night to allow air to circulate through the house whilst they were asleep in bed. (Other than friends of Gerry et al no doubt lol)

If you live in London you bolt and lock every door at night, might invest in a burglar alarm and even have cctv such is the problems of crime in the capital. Crime is also rife in the leafy London suburbs nowhere is safe. To leave garden doors wide open for anyone to walk in is very odd. Still as we know that is similar behaviour to the McCanns and look what was apparently stolen from them – the children attacked by the fox were at least left in situ.

Wizard said...

Morning Viv,

Sodium pentathol was the name I was look for - thanks.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz and thanks for your comments re security which I entirely concur with.

I know it is probably unusual, but my eldest son could even climb out of his cot when he was just one (he was standing up unaided at 7 months). I cannot for one minute imagine any normal parents leaving their children so insecure to whatever may befall them with open patio doors, let alone the burglary issue.

Open patio doors in either case sounds like the most incredible thing to claim to have done, I just would not sleep at night!

S.B. said...

Afternoon All.........,

Yes, the cannibalistic fox saga! I am pleased I am not the only one to find this suspicious. I have declined to raise the issue but seeing as it has been introduced I must have my say.

In the U.K., I lived in the country for many years and although foxes were numerous I never actually saw one. Their existence was obvious from the state of dustbins left out and the area was a popular haunt for fox hunting in days gone by. Have they not earned the well founded reputation for being 'crafty'? O.k. they have environmentally adapted and are no doubt bolder than they used to be but I believe they are still very wary of humans and thus prefer the society of their own kind rather than socializing with humans.

You guys have already mentioned the stupidity of leaving an external door open at night and of course you are right, nobody in their right mind would do such a thing. I wouldn't leave a door open in the daytime let alone night. Excepting one occasion when I deliberately left the back door open should a passing fox like to come in and help itself from the fridge LOL!

This unbelievably farcical story is only fit for ridicule. I had a mental image of a fox entering the house, climbing up the stairs, coincidently locating a bedroom containing two succulent children, climbing into the cots (one by one), attacking the children therein ~ apparently for no other reason than a taste of human flesh. What utter rubbish! I am surprised the fox didn't take himself back downstairs, grab a beer, put his paws up, light a ciggie and stick on a DVD.

This sounds to me like a cover-up for something much more sinister..........

viv said...

Having read this report about other foxes in the area having to be chased out and one even snapping at the bars of a cot as in this instant, I am inclined to think the parents are telling the truth here and it was normal to have the patio open because they were still up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284505/Baby-twins-Isabella-Lola-Koupparis-seriously-injured-fox-attack.html

viv said...

a police officer who arrived even snapped a picture of a fox on his mobile. I really do think this was just a terrible tragedy but it seems the little girls are now OK.

S.B. said...

Viv.....,

I know that you are a retired Probation Officer and I also know that I have been trying to simplify very complex subjects by combining different aspects into one overall category that I refer to as mental illness. As a lay person I admit to categorizing any disorder appertaining to the brain as a form of mental illness. How I expect you or Wizard to condense years of training and experience into a few explanatory pararaphs I shall never know!

Also my apologies for making light of a seemingly unfortunate situation ~ the foxes! Although I maintain that I did think the whole affair highly unlikely when I first read it. I was expecting any day for the truth to rear it's ugly head, as so often happens after a story initially hits the headlines. I shall try in future to curtail the cynicism!

Di said...

Hi all

Viv I agree, I watched the documentary the other night.

I think this was just a tragic incident.

In the documentary the family said they had had a lovely BBQ and left the remains of the food cooling in the kitchen. The twins were put to bed and the rest of the family watched tv with the patio door open.

The fox apparently sneaked in went upstairs and bit the twins trough the bars of the cot, it did not jump into the cots. Why the twins did not scream immediatly I do not know. The first time the mother heard a cry through the monitor she went to investigate. When the mother entered the bedroom the damage was already done, and the fox was still in the room.

One fox expert, not on the documentary, said normally the fox would have been attracted to the food in the kitchen. Why in this case it was not was beyond him.

Neighbours blamed locals for feeding the foxes and therefore they were not afraid of humans. I believe 4/5 foxes were captured in just two days on the property.

We have foxes that live in the field at the back of us. They also come into the garden regularly. Our dog chases them off but they are not afraid to come back.

Di said...

Hi S.B.

I think the McCann's have much to answer for with the way people react to unusual news stories.

I never used to be a cynical person, but I am now. I even watched the body language of the twins parents during the documentary, again something so not like me.

I really must learn to chill.

hope4truth said...

Hello

There will come a time when a child is snatched and the parents will act in an odd way maybe from shock or they are of low inteligence....

The child will be in terible danger and the authorities will not take it as seriously as they should and may waste time focusing on the parents as they will remeber the McCanns and the lies and spin they created....

I never thought in a million years I would blog against parents who say their child was taken....

But I wont stop now because if she really is missing the sick games they have played with her life make them far more evil than if there was an accident and they covered it up to save themselves....

Sadly the more I read the less likely it is the children were neglected which makes me think it was not a tragic accident....

But when that child in the future goes missing and no one belives the parents the blood of another innocent will be on their hands....

Time for this to stop now if they really are innocent then they need to take a lie detector test stop the spin and answer very simple questions and the papers need to report facts not McCann fiction...

Small children are worth more than any adult....

Di said...

Hello Hope

I don't know whether you were listening to Jeremy Vine the other lunchtime regarding the parents who allowed their two children to cycle to school aged 8 and 5. They travel on the pavement and a lollipop lady crosses them over the one busy road to their school.

The school head said they would be reported unless their children were accompanied by addults.

One of the people speaking on the programme was from, don't quote me, protection of child safety or something similar.

She said the parents were dreadful had they not heard about what happened to Madeleine McCann. The fact that the children were leaving at the same time each day and riding the same route was putting them in danger of being abducted just like Madeleine, as her parents had left her the same time each and every night and the abductor was watching their movements.

I was so glad Jeremy made no response.

There is so much information out there why do these people not read up on the case files.

viv said...

Hiya all,

I too think the McCanns have a lot to answer for. Just look what Shannon Matthews suffered, directly inspired by Kate and Gerry McCann. Undoubtely there will be others.

It has made people cynical and I am no different. That is the really sad thing, that innocent parents are going to be treated with cynicism and suspicion and a child may genuinely still be capable of recovery.

It is right that where children have come to harm under their parents care child protection procedures are invoked to make sure the parents were not abusive or negligent.

I would definitely use the first word to describe Kate and Gerry McCanns, Madeleine's immediate Fund and the gleeful looks from both of them, like lottery winners hardly compare with the conduct expected of normal innocent parents. For such a long time we heard how they must clear their own names before they could even start looking for Madeleine. Why on earth would that stop them?

Gerry just assures us Maddie is fine being abused by paedophiles in some lair for year and years and when he gets around to it and people like Goncalo and all the rest of us stop poking the finger he will find her. There never seemed any urgency, it was always looking at the long term view (and how much money he could make)

I am not being judgmental about him, he is sick and repulsive.... "we realised the abductor might do something to her eye but it was a good marketing ploy"...pure pscyhopath and totally unable to appreciate the reaction to that comment from people with normal thought processes and the capacity for empathy.

viv said...

It is a sad thing that foxes have been driven out of their natural habitat in the countryside by humans who like to hunt them for sport.

It is quite rural where I live and I can honestly say I see a badger more often than a fox.

Foxes are wild animals and clearly not meant to co-exist with humans and be fed by them.

Wherever humans seriously interfere with the balance of nature we see the tragic results.

Thanks for your comments on the documentary Di, the parents clearly did not do anything wrong and quite properly were using the monitor to listen to their children in the home, not to sit at a pub!

I wonder if the little girls were just speechless with fright, I can remember a few occasions when I have been so frightened I just could not make a sound.

hope4truth said...

Hello Di

No I did not hear that and I am pleased he did not respond but I am fumming...

A child protection expert links Madeleine McCann to these two children whilst saying how dreadful their parents are....

In that case if this fool links apaling behaviour to Madeleine why the hell are the papers and so called child agencies not pointing the finger of blame and discust at 8 adults who are all proud to tell the world just how little they thought of their children on that holiday....

I used to give money to the NSPCC every month but stopped when nothing was said about just how wicked the neglect of the children on that holiday was...

Watching their adverts about neglect is one thing but when two people make 3 million to spend on making themsleves look good and are invited to speak at child protection seminars then as far as I am concerned they are all morally corrupt.....

Madeleine is the victim I dont belive she was taken but for any so called expert to skim the files and to view the happy snaps on her 4th Birthday and still induldge them is sick and it is about time our press and social services did what any decent person would do and put the child first....

The main suspects have been allowed to run the investigation and spin it to try and make themselves look good which is impossible so does anyone out there give a damn about the real victim?

Wizard said...

Good Morning All,

I’ve just been reading back.

LOL – SB Thank you for a good laugh re your comments on foxy behaviour – I’m still smiling.

Viv – Following SB’s foxy behaviour comments I note you say (18.34 Wed. post) that a picture of a fox on his mobile was taken. Perhaps the fox was phoning his solicitor? LOL

Wizard said...

I was just listening to a report on BBC1’s Breakfast programme. Portugal is facing an economic downturn probably due to them taking advantage of easy access to large EC loans which now have to be paid back. During a World wide recession all countries suffer but it was interesting to note Portugal’s tourist industry is down significantly year on year for the past two years.

Is this simply a spending drop of it usual tourists due to the current economic climate or a reluctance of visitors with small children to travel to Portugal because of the McCann case. Probably I would think a bit of both.

viv said...

Wiz, I hear the evil Police/Council etc were immediately operating a bait to kill policy and exterminated five foxes without even allowing them equal rights to humans and a fair trial under the Human Rights Act.

Five foxes were exterminated without so much as a fair trial, let alone access to their solicitors and a copy of the Conduct of Fair Practice/ their cell detention record.. if it is good enough for foxes, it should be good enough for certain humans!

viv said...

Hiya again Wiz

I think Britain has suffered a great deal in the recession with record numbers of homes once again being re-possessed and job losses/effective cuts in wages, overtime etc. This has made people very cautious with their money.

Britain does contribute a lot to the tourist industry in Portugal in times of plenty and I am sure this has had an effect.

But I think there is also likely to be the McCann effect. I do not think it is really much to do with people being fearful for their young children because normal parents simply would not put their children at risk as the McCanns claim to have done.

I think it is to do with the stigma in the UK press the McCanns have engendered with hostile anti Portugal publicity for the last three years. That will have a subtle effect on peoples choices when deciding where to go and spend their hard earned cash.

I feel deeply ashamed as a Brit for what the McCanns have single handedly managed to do to the Portuguese economy and what was hitherto considered a paradise for Brits.

It was a very planned attack on Portugal that the McCanns were putting into place from the very first moments with their telephone calls to their friends and relatives and directly contacting the media, complaining about the Portuguese Police. They are very wicked people and the victims they have created, aside from their own children in pursuit of hard cash for themselves are simply inestimable.

docmac said...

Viv

The mother stated in the first interview that she did not see a fox. She then changed her mind...

I repeat, I do not believe those photos show fox bites.

Bundlefox...

S.B. said...

Evening All!

Wizard, you are a very bad influence ~ you are tempting me to further ridicule the foxy saga..........

On which subject, just looking at Sky News reports it occurs to me that perhaps we are looking at another attempt to capitalize at the expense of a child/s safety. Look again at the parents actions, they are only too willing to speak to the press and media rather than being thankful for their childrens deliverance and avoiding the lime light. What also do we see? The husbands employer is responsible for the televised documentary! It is not necessary for this couple to draw the publics attention to their plight, if there is a true danger of errant foxes menacing the human race with any regularity the populace will be duly informed by the appropriate authority. Concerning the parents performance on camera I think the Mccanns presentation is still too fresh in mind to be 100% convinced.

Sky News report also includes very interesting comments from wildlife expert Terry Nutkins regarding the general habits of foxes.

So who are the victims of this particular chronicle? Two innocent children and a lot innocent foxes!

docmac said...

Evening SB

What you say is spot on.

Moreover, having a reasonable ;-) amount of experience in the general area, I am inclined to take what is claimed to have occurred with a fair pinch of...

Misdiagnosis is preferable to a missed diagnosis in the often murky waters of childhood 'injuries'. And those who work in this field have a good eye.

docmac said...

Coincidentally...

Ahem

Attention all doctors...

viv said...

Hiya Doc and SB

Maybe I need to stand corrected on this, I am only going on the link to the report I read.

I will try to read up a bit more on it to form a better view. Can you point me to the interview and photographs you are referring to Doc?

I have to confess I find this behaviour for a fox very strange, I could certainly have understood an urban fox straying into the kitchen to eat the leftovers but why did it ignore those and go upstairs?

I am sure though that there is a distinction to be drawn between urban foxes in London and the odd ones I see which are fearful of humans and most certainly will not hang around at all. I have noticed also that some urban foxes seem to be smaller than their country cousins, presumably due to poor diet scavanging in bins etc.

As regards the Baby P doctor, I think it is the same as with Shoesmith, those in high authority must be held accountable for their high status and accompying high salary. They are paid it because they MUST safeguard children and if they fail in that basic duty there is clearly a price to pay for that. In that way the standards of professionals involved in child care will be raised to a satisfactory level.

I have always wondered how Kate McCann approached her duty to protect children at risk when she worked as a GP, presumably with a large pinch of salt like she treated her duty towards her own children to protect them from harm.

viv said...

I have just been reading comments on Sky.

I think the most rational explanationf or this is it was not a fox at all, but a ginger cat.

The behaviour of the animal padding upstairs and attacking the children in their cots, cats know their way around houses and have been frequently known to attack babies in cots and prams.

Also the behaviour when the woman confronted the animal standing glaring back, this is not the behaviour of a fox IMO, but a cat most certainly!

I am sorry that this is being politicised to attack foxes and perhaps to back a ban on hunting.

Hunting is for aggressive toffs in the countryside who like to thunder around on horses where practically no humans live. The only thing it may achieve is to drive yet more foxes into urban areas to gain sanctuary from these vicious thugs who could just thunder around on horses without the carnage and slaughter, pasting fox blood on childrens' faces etc. That is disgusting behaviour.

I was interested to note how many people blamed the parents also for not shutting the doors whilst they were watching TV. I must confess the obvious risk of doing this in an urban area had not really occurred.

viv said...

I think I see what you mean now Doc, looking at the pics of the little girls. One injury looks like a very deep claw wound on her arm, then there is a bite mark on the other little girls arm from an animal with a very small jaw and teeth IMO.


Like a cat!

The parents are perpetuating a myth and cashing in, parading their children. There is something very wrong here, I do agree, but I do not believe that any human inflicted these injuries.

docmac said...

Viv

See the 'credits' at the bottom of this page. Does this remind you of any other couple trying to make money out of an 'rare occurrence'?

Questions:

1. How did the 'fox' have time to jump into the other cot and maul the second twin?

2. Is this 'fox' the only one in Britain that would stand its ground against two screaming adults?

3. Furthermore, is this the only 'fox' in Britain that would bypass leftover barbeque in search of something more palatable upstairs?

4. Why was the father taking pictures of his childrens' injuries less than one hour after the 'attack'?

5. Trick question: You buy a shack in Hackney for 800k that would not cost much more than 100k in other parts of Britain. What are your mortgage repayments? Are you battling to keep up?

6. If you lived in that 100k home in another part of Britain, would this have made the news? And if so, would the public believe your story?

7. Is there a smoker in the house?

If you are wondering about the last question, Viv, you may enquire via Email.

Di said...

Hi all

Doc

I did not know the mother never mentioned seeing a fox in her first interview hmmmm.

In the documentary the mother stated the fox had put its head through the bars and grabbed the twins arms, which I must admit I thought odd as most children of this age would have cot bumpers, which are designed to stop arms and legs getting through the bars. In fact how could a fox get its head through the bars in the first place surely they are too narrow.

I agree I could not understand why the fox had not gone into the kitchen for the remains of the food far easier.

Am I getting the gist that you don't think they are bites at all?

S.B. said...

Afternoon Viv...........,

Foxes have been colonising cities since after the First World War so this is nothing new, except I am not sure that an attack on a human has ever been known before so this would appear to be more than a random tragic incident. As for the photographs of the children supposedly attacked, it is very difficult to identify the origin of the injuries but I am not sure they even look as though they originate from an animal of any description.

You are obviously a very compassionate person who has the ability to search for what is good in people but at the same time I am guessing, due to your experience and training, you judge situations with due deference to the law. Conversely, I am a naturally inquisitive person with an over active mind so it is nigh on impossible for me to take things at face value. From the outset of the Mccann saga I couldn't rationalize the situation as it was portrayed; there were too many inconsistencies and strange happenings. Why would a potential abductor be prowling around a holiday resort looking for convenient little girl to snatch? Would it not be more convincing for an abductor to hang around outside an establishment such as a school? Why this little girl? Why not one of the other two children? The group were on holiday for one week so I think it highly unlikely that a paedophile gang targeted Madeleine, followed the group to Portugal, watched their every movement, blah blah blah! We all know now all the details of the Mccanns subterfuge so I will not reiterate, I am merely trying to illustrate my way of reasoning.

Likewise this alleged attack by a fox instantly invites scepticism. Why ignore the food in the kitchen? Why climb two flights of stairs? Why attack sleeping children? How could a fox cause that extent of injury when outside of the cot? Why would it maul one child and then move onto the next for a second helping? Why did the fox hang around to meet the parents? Why would anybody purposefully take photographs of their own injured child? Why almost immediately post gory details of the attack on facebook?

So Viv, you also are encouraging me to be facetious. I now have visions of Mr Fox setting up a defence fund (21st Century Fox?) and appointing Mr Knutkin as spin doctor/image consultant. Although I would strongly advise against Pink Panther as a private dick!

docmac said...

Yes, Di

Most of the wounds appear to be of dubiously uncertain origin. Thogh I could hazard a very good guess.

viv said...

Hiya guys

Doc thanks for the link to that interesting report. I note at first an expert would not believe a fox had done this but when confronted with further evidence including the police officer photo of a small fox at the patio door he changed his mind and does feel this is the work of a fox cub.

I know from my love of wildlife that baby birds and animals, even though wild do not instantly have that fear of humans, it is a learned skill. I recall some years ago sitting near to a pond, a favourite spot of mine and a baby fox was playing across the other side and sometimes coming down to drink. If that had been an adult it would not have tolerated my presence not very far away and would have promptly disappeared. Likewise with baby owls and other birds I have been near, you can hear the parents frantically calling get away!

It was actually through watching baby Little Owls and flattening my car battery, that I severely injured my ankle, rupturing the ligament when having to walk in the dark, but that is another story.

So what may seem inexplicable behaviour for an adult wily and intelligent fox, may not be the same thing at all for an infant. Baby animals are just like young children very inquisitive straying off etc.

The little girls are actually having treatment for rabies which is painful and very unpleasant. The hospital would not subject them to this for no good reason.

I do think this was a freak occurence caused either by a very young fox or a cat.

But I also think the parents conduct since that time has mirrored that of Kate and Gerry McCann.

Just a few weeks after this incident a little boy was bitten by a fox. He put his hand under a shed to get a ball and the fox took fright and bit. That is understandable, if a stranger reaches towards Nanday to stroke him, he will instinctively bite, through fear. The parents of this little boy simply explained very briefly what happened and then rather pointedly commented, there is nothing more to be said and there are no photos of their little boy. Now that is what I call normal parents who do not have any intention of cashing in on their child.

Your comments about a high mortgage doc are well founded, exactly the same thing with Kate and Gerry McCann, £323,000 if I remember correctly.

SB, I do respect the law and in all cases until such time as the police start investigating parents would not make accusations against them. But it is true to say that in the case of the McCanns from the very first few days, I suspected them. I did not start voicing those suspicions until they were interviewed as suspects. Likewise with Karen Matthews.

viv said...

SB Just another thought, wild carnivores, and that is what a fox is, learn to kill their prey by playing with it. I think that is what the baby fox was unfortunately doing.

We have driven these lovely animals into the cities and almost sterilised the countryside of them. What few are allowed to remain are checked upon by the hunt workers and sometimes even fed so that they will have something to hunt and it is STILL going on.

That is why I now find the bizarre situation where I can much more frequently see a far rarer animal, a badger. I live only a few miles from a major hunt.

Princess Anne epitomises the attitude, foxes are pure vermin and badgers are a pest also, in their highly ingorant view, they, as humans, have the right to kill these pests and rid their farmlands of them. It is an absolute tragedy. There is evidence that indiscriminately killing some badgers actually causes them to spread as they search for new homes, likewise with the fox. They are rife in Birmingham and London because we have driven these poor creatures there.

When doing my second degree I was amazed to see that thrushes were prevalent in the university grounds in the inner city. But try spotting one around here that the farmers have not poisoned!

viv said...

But Karen Matthews did put on a far better act than Kate McCann, she managed to look very tearful and sad.

They say she has learning disabilities but sometimes people like to make out they are far slower than they actually are. I think she realised this was a major criticism of Kate and Gerry, and she acted accordingly. Not that it got her anywhere, it takes a great deal of nous to stay out of custody as long as the McCanns have so far managed. They need to know the strength of the evidence against them so that they can counter it and keep the wolf from the door, what a life.

I would rather try and pay the mortgage, not that I have ever had one that was way beyond my means!

viv said...

The fox mom and dad are so like Kate and Gerry on that film. She looks like she is trotting out rehearsed lines and playing the female role of being tearful and sad. He sits and closely monitors her Oscar winning performance making sure she gets her lines and demeanour just right.

No caring parents would parade their children and cash in as this couple have, using the emotive pictures and language. Cheese grater, lumps of flesh falling off..one of these days those little girls might read what mummy had to say to the world.

viv said...

http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/madeleine-mccann-still-missing-still-missed-f54/we-re-still-looking-for-you-madeleine-t2929.htm

Check out the top picture of Maddie holding her tennis balls in the box "Poem and Prayer".

Something very odd has happened here, compare with the tennis balls pic top right on this blog, showing her bruised or burnt wrist, HER RIGHT ARM, and the pure white hand, then check this one, healthy looking LEFT ARM, no odd white hand. Her T shirt is also sporting a nice frilly neck, not seen on the original pic.

Amazing what you can do with pics these days, for a good marketing ploy...

viv said...

In this new "doctored", oh please excuse the pun, picture of Maddie, the lock of hair has also moved from the right hand side of her face, to the left. And, the masses of long brown hair on the original pic, has pretty much been removed. Odd that, anyone would think they are trying to hide something...

viv said...

oh and those deep purple bags under Maddie's eyes, presumably caused through a sleeping disorder, so clearly visible on the original on this blog, miraculously seem to have been air brushed away.

Odd the way these parents are so into film making...

viv said...

I think Di made a very apt comment the other day, something along the lines of, well how on earth could anyone recognise Maddie, how would we actually know what she really looks like.

But my bet is she had brown hair, not blond, just like mummy with the black roots and black eyebrows.

They are clearly en famille with the hair dye, Gerry made me laugh when he turned up for the Select Committe with that jet black hair. Just the females in the family have to go the other way, it would seem.

To say the McCanns are fakes would be something of an understatement, they cannot even show us a genuine last pic of little Maddie but want, no, demand we all go on our hols and look for her.

I still have not figured out why they want students to tell them what course they are studying, other than as Wiz suggest, they will hold up the garlic and cross to psychology, criminal law, criminology students, maybe media studies too? I mean they would be a bit "knowing", oh and then there is film and photography students, presumably they do not want them either, lol!

viv said...

Oops just thought of another one that would give David and Gerry the heeby jeebies, social work students:-)))

Kate and Fiona too actually..

So what would be the chosen subjects for the McCanns, I am relying on Doc and SB in particular to come up with some good ones.

Kate would probably like art students, I remember from the Channel 4 doc she is a dab hand with a paint brush!

viv said...

FANTASTIC NEWS MOAT DEAD!


Gunman Moat dead, police sources say

Page last updated at 02:23 GMT, Saturday, 10 July 2010 03:23 UK

* E-mail this to a friend
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* Latest news
* As it happened
* Moat profile
* In pictures
* Eyewitness accounts

The moment police end the stand off with Raoul Moat

Fugitive gunman Raoul Moat has died after apparently shooting himself following a six-hour stand-off with armed officers, police sources say.

Police said earlier that "no shots were fired by police officers" and no officers were hurt in the incident.

Moat was taken to hospital in Newcastle, but sources told the BBC later that he had died.

Police had been negotiating with him close to a river in the town of Rothbury after a week-long manhunt.

BBC producer Claire Kendall said she heard two shots fired.

Eyewitness Peter Abiston, whose house overlooks the scene of the incident, told the BBC: "There's been a shooting. Paramedics have gone into him.

"From what I can see he shot himself. He lay down and shot himself.
Raoul Moat lying on the ground in Rothbury, Northumberland Moat was earlier seen pointing a gun at his own neck

"I think there was two, but there was certainly one shot."

An ambulance left the scene accompanied by two police cars and later arrived at Newcastle General Hospital.

Chief Superintendent Mark Dennett said the circumstances surrounding the shooting "have yet to be established".

Police discovered an armed man on the riverbank at about 1900 BST on Friday. Expert negotiators were brought in to speak to him.

Unconfirmed reports suggested a friend of Moat was also brought inside the police cordon.
Police grudge

Moat, 37, had been on the run for a week after allegedly shooting his ex-girlfriend Samantha Stobbart and killing her new partner, Chris Brown.

The attacks took place in the Scafell area of Birtley, near Gateshead, on Saturday 3 July.

In the early hours of Sunday 4 July, Moat is alleged to have shot Pc David Rathband as he sat in his patrol car in East Denton, near Newcastle.

Moat was released from prison on Thursday 1 July.

Northumbria Police said he appeared to have a grudge against the force and in a letter purportedly written by him, he threatened to keep shooting officers until he was dead.

The focus of the manhunt moved to Rothbury when a black Lexus car, which Moat was thought to have been using, was discovered in the town on Tuesday.

Police imposed a 10-mile (16km) exclusion zone around the town and armed officers from forces across the country were brought in to assist in the search.

Do you live in Rothbury? Were you affected by the search for Raoul Moat? Send us your comments using the form below.

docmac said...

Hi Viv

Well I reckon they would prefer students who are aiming at careers in professions that oftentimes involve lying for a living. Like bankers. And estate agents. And lawyers ;-)

I still don't think those are bite marks. I shall ask the opinion of my business partner, who happens to be the head of the largest paediatric trauma unit in the Southern Hemisphere, when he returns from a jaunt to the South Sea Islands.

viv said...

Hiya Doc

The plastic surgeon apparentely commented that it was the worse bite he had seen including from a fox and many dogs, right down to the bone with extreme force which will necessitate surgery up to her teens.

What else could have caused an injury like that?

Are you suggesting these were knife cuts? It would be helpful to know what you actually think happened.


xx

docmac said...

Hi Viv

When I was at med school, I met many foreign students, both under- and postgrads, who came here to learn more about traumatic injuries. No denying that this was a country where much could be learned in this field. There were fully qualified European surgeons here who had never 'seen' a stabbed abdomen or chest, for instance. These experiantial visits continue to this day, though thankfully the incidence of such distressing violence has decreased.

I have a healthy disrespect for many in my profession. Plastic surgeons very much included.

Yes, I am suggesting the injuries might have been caused by other means. Look at the facial blisters. And the arm injuries...

Are you still smoking? ......

docmac said...

Concerning the pic on the fansite:

Photoshop is fantastic. Given time, almost anyone can learn how to use this programme. Judging by what I've seen, however, it was not Rosiepops. He has not mastered the skills.

S.B. said...

Viv......,

A tricky one indeed! I reckon the Mccanns have made enemies within just about every profession that exists. In fact if they were to rule out every undesirable from the extensive list of student applicants that they expect to recruit they will discover the whole exercise to have been futile.

There is a distinct possibility that any recruit within the 'arts' may be welcome (excepting media and journalism). Photography would be of assistance in order to enhance their 'doctoring' skills. Movie producing and directing ~ absolve the need for paid professionals when the time comes for making the Maddie, sorry Madeleine Movie. IT ~ there must be a simple way to wipe-out all these blogs that keep saying nasty things about us and we might make our own website more functional and attractive to encourage donations. As an after thought I think perhaps business management may be of use ~ money laundering requires a certain talent if you wish to remain undetected! Even forensics has it possibilities ~ just as long as you can keep a distance from the 'long arm of the law'!

How I envy your wildlife exploits (excluding the injury of course). Working in London it was necessary for me to drive about 30 miles to and from work everyday and frequently the return journey was after dark. I once saw a pair of red spots in a wooded area that looked like eyes so stopped to investigate. Indeed it was a pair of eyes ~ but not from a fox as I thought, it was actually the lenses of infrared binoculars! Looking for nocturnal birds without doubt but not the feathered variety! Is nowhere safe from predators these days?

It is 35 C. and far too hot for my liking............

docmac said...

SB

Money laundering? Surely you jest? ;-)

S.B. said...

docmac.......,

Would I !?!

docmac said...

Sb

Having read your posts, I would guess you have not ruled that out :-)

As I understand it, you are also in Africa. 35 C? Lucky you. It's freezing down here at the Cape of Good Hope.

docmac said...

Paul the octopus was right again.

I reckon we should put Gerry and Kate in there and see which one he picks...

viv said...

Hiya Doc

I did appreciate from your earlier numbered post you were suggesting cigarette burns but confess I had discounted this. This would not account for bloody trauma down to the bones, serious muscle damage, and what looks like obvious teeth puncture marks to me on the one little girl's arm.

The less serious damage is like pictures I have seen of a mauling by a pit bull, there are serious deep wounds but also many scuffs and lacerations.

I do not find it possible that these parents were actually burning these babies with their cigs and then something far worse happened to them and they dialled 999, that seems just too fantastic to me.

The lawyer in me would say that immediate photographic records of the injuries was a very wise thing to do, but not to plaster on Facebook if that is what they did. The motivations for taking the pictures seem like a scheme was promptly hatched to cashin on the terrible injuries to their own little girls and that is just completely and utterly unacceptable. When parents behave like this, they should not complain when they get a mauling on the internet.

I think plastic surgeons do the most marvellous job to assist patients with really bad trauma injuries like animal bites etc.

Luke came off his scooter a few years back and when I arrived noted his lip was cut right through literally hanging apart. He was operated on the next morning by a plastic surgeon and you would never know what happened to his mouth.

To me the fact that the injuries on the little girls still look pretty bad after the first round of plastic surgery demonstrates how serious some of the injuries must have been, that was no cigarette!

docmac said...

From the pro side...

AND to make sure that everyone involved, not just with the abduction [ahem], but also it's coverup [double ahem] and all those attempting to damage the search [double that double ahem] face justice. And that means amaral, bennett, morais, clawdia, and all the other forum scum who have set themselves to destroying Madeleine's future. I want to see very long prison sentences for all of them.

Goodness me, are some people in the UK still so blind? And thick? Well, thank you anyway for confirming that the McCanns are on the forums. As for calling them scum - I agree. But you are going to be fired.

docmac said...

Viv

There are burn injuries for sure. And others...

viv said...

doc, thanks for your feedback on the changed tennis balls pic Psychopops is displaying. I agree it is not likely he did this, it was a professional job, presumably Kate's mate, the mysterious Mr Jon Corner.

But it does demonstrate that Psychopops has direct links, I think. I think it has the same predilections for children and perception adults do not actually do them any harm. When the paedophile has quite finished the child can just pop off back home, none the worse for wear, apparently.

viv said...

Hiya SB

Your talents at writing, as ever, make you such a pleasure to read. I love the paragraph on the sort of student talents the McScams may wish to particularly recruit from and hone in on. IN a purely exploitative way, of course. It certainly occurred to me that most students are pretty hard up and can be persuaded to do the most amazing things to fund their research as it were. I think Kate and Gerry would be highly skilled at very rapidly recognising suitably malleable candidates.

I have a feeling there have been some pretty extensive attempts to use technology to wipe this blog out, but like a carbuncle it arises once more phoenix like from the ashes. I have deliberately closed it down sometimes, just for the pleasure of reading Psychopops and its sidekick, kiddy fiddler, "Tinkerbell", salivating with excitement at the demise of the green slimy bog as they so pleasantly christened it. Given my pet dislike in this case is patently obvious, I fear they wear their hearts on their sleeves.

They are only wise after the event, realising after about two and a half years (yes they are very quick) it was not really so clever to single me out for that particular style of attack.


PS Please behave yourself SB accusing these poor parents of "money laundering", you are not allowed to say that, please use the correct terminology, you can choose, Metodoed or Halligened, I will brook no dissent from this on here:-)))

docmac said...

Jon Corner, yes...

Just let me say this, Viv. You know my background, and you know I am not one to 'keep my mouth', as they would say here.

I respect all those who have taken a stand against the McCanns. And I understand their restraint when they feel they may be overstepping the mark whilst critisizing the couple. If I offend some of them, I apologise, but those who know me from the early DX days know that I have no qualms about shooting from the hip when it comes to these excuses for parents. Your other African poster does much the same thing, in a deliciously humorous style which I will never be able to emulate.

As for Rosiepops and the sycophants who inhabit her migraine-inducing pink palace - shame on them all. They don't really give a stuff about kids.

viv said...

Hiya again Doc,

If those parents were, in any way, responsible for the injuries to those children they will be thoroughly investigated by both police and social workers. I am sure that is why they were trying to catch the fox that apparently did it, for forensic investigative purposes.

I am also sure that due to the clamour over Kate and Gerry McCann, even if you are right, we will not hear a peep unless and until they are arrested, but they have allowed the girls back into their care which suggests there are no immediate and obvious concerns.

viv said...

"migraine inducing pink palace" :-)))))

don't be so modest Doc, you are a good match for the talents of SB

xx

viv said...

SB, I do not envy you sweltering in 35 degrees, that is the point when save for swimming I just cannot cope, off to Egypt in Nov when it will be a wee bit cooler. In fact not much different to what is is here currently, Doc, my heart breaks for you enduring those wintry conditions but recall what a tease you are at Christimas time !

docmac said...

Yeah, and S*** and A***** were never removed from the 'care' of the glamfam either. No immediate and obvious concerns there either...

docmac said...

My sister tells me it is pretty warm in Ireland too, Viv. But she still looked pretty pasty on Skype, lol!

Flippin cold here means under 8 C, Viv :-))

docmac said...

Well, it seems you may have gone upstairs, Viv. I am too excited to sleep right now.

Africa's World Cup ends today. A tournament that, despite dire predictions from much of the world's press, has gone incredibly smoothly. No hooliganism, no disasters (save the embarrassing Durban airport fiasco), no crime to speak of (well, there were a few reported minor incidents - all committed by foreigners), a fantastic spirit of 'ubuntu'. There have never been less 'incidents' at a World Cup, by far. This has surprised visiting fans and changed the mindset of the media folk, who were expecting something totally different. Like lions in the streets and the need to wear stab-proof vests.

I hope the journalists remember their experiences here when they return to their homelands, and stop reporting the rubbish that we all have to read on an almost daily basis. They have had the holiday of their lives and we all hope they will encourage others to discover this beautiful and friendly land.

PS: G&K, thanks for not coming. Paris Hilton was quite enough for me.

docmac said...

Oh good, I see some have already noticed:-)))

viv said...

Gone downstairs actually Doc, put Nanday to bed who had been sitting guarding me on the back of my chair/getting his head rubbed here nad there, and just been pottering in the garden/feeding the fish again, it is still hot out there even now!

Ah now I learned what that vuvuzela word means, a little horn, and there was me thinking it was something to do with sex, lol!

viv said...

doc, I don't want to upset you, but the local grapevine tells me football mad Gerry did sneak off to SA, courtesy of his Limited Company (he WAS looking for Maddie, you are just going to have to trust me on that one).

Anyway, word has it, he died oops I mean dyed his hair blond to trick you. He thinks Kate's barbie doll kit, is his, given his Fund paid for it!

viv said...

but, he is finding her underwear that he slyly stashed in the garage to play dressing up a bit tight, since he got the middle aged/loadsa money spread. Shame.

docmac said...

Gerry is i winker. Oh deir, my i key is not working.

Vuvuzelis are kik when there ire i thousind of them sounding off it once. However, they ire i greit tool for cilling the kids it home :-)

docmac said...

Ah, my a key is back. Was wondering where Hope had got to. Now I see she is in Wales.

Hope you are having a great time there, Hope. Be safe and look after those lovely kids, eh :-)

docmac said...

Viv: re 02:11:00

Thanks for that. Will never sleep again. Do you remember the comment from someone forever ago imagining what it would be like to look up and see Gerry's face whilst he was draining his spuds?

Yuck!

docmac said...

Blog of someone who used to rent a house from my dad. If you don't like anything outside of Essex, don't read it :-)

http://www.andrewboraine.com/2010/07/tens-reasons-why-the-cape-town-2010-fan-walk-worked-so-well/

docmac said...

Even better :-)

I love this town!

viv said...

I can see why Doc, what a lovely friendly atmosphere and the children part of the fun and perfectly safe, just like it should be!

As regards your other post, talk about getting your own back, what a horror vision eh ! Draining the spuds...so graphic, lol!

docmac said...

It's been a revelation, Viv. The people of Cape Town have reclaimed their city. And there have been only words of praise from visitors. They and their friends and families will return. The many that I spoke to all said they felt safer here than on any previous holiday, with most feeling safer than they do at home. Stuff that in yer pipe and smoke it, tabloid journalists ;-)

The number of kids at public events and the fan walk has astonished me. Every step is taken to ensure their safety at the fan fest. Nobody is allowed past security until details of all kids and their parents have been recorded and the kids and one parent at least have been tagged. Though this sounds onerous, it is performed very quickly and in a very friendly manner. Should a child become separated from the parent, they were to be taken to a secure area in the city hall and the parent telephoned. The person arriving to fetch the errant child would be required to recall details about the kid that would not be known by a stranger.

I am very happy and proud to say - necessary and desirable as this system is - not a single child ended up in city hall :-))

S.B. said...

Afternoon Viv....,

Make accusations? Moi? Never! I wouldn't even venture to think such malicious assertions against this poor, troubled, innocent couple. If I mentioned anything that may appear slanderous please understand that I am merely attempting to assist the couple by advising them how best to manage the 'funds' finances, in order to maximise it's benefit with the ongoing 'intensified' search for their little abducted daughter! It would be tragic to see them again Halligened, being so vulnerable they are obviously in need of protection from such practiced fraudsters. I am sure you do understand my motives, you are just making fun of my obvious sympathetic nature. You of all people know how I have striven to defend this pair of misunderstood victims!

You bet most students are very hard-up and would probably appreciate a little financial reward to aid their seasonal travels. I refer of course to an extended student loan ~ nothing more sinister!

As for "The Green Slimy Bog" ~ I like it! Does that make you a sort of Gollum? I have always enjoyed fairy stories!

viv said...

Hiya SB

I knew you would not actually deliberately misunderstand this much maligned couple and genuinely have their best interests at heart. That is truly laudable, as the little extract below shows, all they sought to do, is raise countless millions of pounds, not for themselves, but to Metodo and Halligen that money, so that they can provide a truly "value added" search for little Madeleine. I am sure that losing her was actually no more than mere absent mindedness.

It is no different to stashing a hundred quid in a drawer somewhere for a rainy day and then forgetting where you put it really, and as Kate and Gerry say, we have all done this. Sometimes I cannot even find my garden twine.

Published: 08 Jan 2008
KATE and Gerry McCann are in negotiations to turn the story of missing Madeleine into a film.

The couple are in talks with entertainment agency IMG with any deal potentially worth millions.

A source close to the McCanns said: "We would only get involved with something done sensitively and considerately."

The money earned would be used to continue the search for Madeleine as it is feared the £1.2million raised from public donations will soon run out.

A book deal and selling interviews to broadcasters is also being considered with all proceeds being poured into the Madeleine Fund which was set up to finance the search.

The film project will be discussed at a meeting of the fund's directors, including Gerry, tomorrow night at the McCanns' home in Rothley, Leicestershire.

The Madeleine Fund is committed to spending £50,000 a month on a Spanish private detective agency. It is also paying for a poster and television advertising campaign in Spain, Portugal and Morocco, where there have been several alleged sightings.

Estimates suggest at least £500,000 has already been spent.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/maddie/article663516.ece#ixzz0tPwa5nhP

viv said...

and really anyone who could suggest that pouring all that cash into their tax free limited by guarantee company, is illegal tax evasion, is definitely just mealy-minded.

viv said...

Oh Lol SB!

I am a bit of a thoughtless person, subjecting those enjoying a break to me struggling out of the sea in a large sized swimming costume. Do I care that I do not look sexy and serene any more, well no not really, one just has to be cool!

I honestly do not know how you stand that heat, it would make me positively ill! It is true, we always want the opposite to what we get, that is human nature, but if I were you I would be longing for the crisp white snow or belting rain also!

YOur escapade with the non prickly urchin, lol, lol! I had visions as I was reading that of him trying to sell you some dehydrated monkey personal piece!

viv said...

Erm "Gerry's antics look like child's play"

I think that is perfectly acceptable SB as I know you are far beyond wanting to play with words:-))) As if you would do such a thing!

viv said...

Mom, my step father and I were backing Spain, what a great result!!

docmac said...

Dehydrated carrot? lololol!!

SB

50C is not something I think would agree with me. Or my wife. It might dehydrate my carrot.

docmac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
docmac said...

Now why did that comment take a whole minute to get published? And why did it then appear twice? Blogger!

docmac said...

Well, we (other than Callum) were supporting Holland, Viv. He's strutting around wearing his silly Spanish hat looking like a randy peacock. It won't last - schools reopen tomorrow after the longest midyear holiday ever :-)

docmac said...

Well, we (other than Callum) were supporting Holland, Viv. He's strutting around wearing his silly Spanish hat looking like a randy peacock. It won't last - schools reopen tomorrow after the longest midyear holiday ever :-)

docmac said...

There we go again again :-))

viv said...

Ah lovely little Callum picked a good team bless him!

Luke came back from Ibiza in the early hours, he commented there was a bit of an uproar in Spain for some reason lol!

He looked just like the rising sun, even at 3 am this morning!

I wonder if this will post straight off>>

S.B. said...

Hello again.....,

Oh Viv! That article you have reproduced makes one feel physically sick! In case one ever wavers in their conviction of this couples machinations all you need to do is check-out some of this old material to remind you what a sick, perverted, self-satisfied pair of 'bleeps' that they really are!

Yes of course it was just absent mindedness, like forgetting where you left the car keys ~ but no matter they will probably turn up somewhere, sometime!

I have never mentioned it before but I can honestly say that I have never seen a single poster, newspaper report or even mention of missing Madeleine in Morocco. I don't watch local television but much like the press such media outlets are still very much controlled by the supreme powers, so mainstream news does not reach the populace ~ only that which they want you to hear! The reason maybe because I live in the southern regions of the country and the Madeleine case was restricted to the north but somehow I don't think so. After all it was suggested that Maddie was being held captive in a remote region of the country by a rich Arab ~or was it a paedophile ~ or was it a farmer ~ or was it Ms Beckham, can't quite remember but I am sure you get the gist!

A country very mindful of it's international image does not appreciate the infiltration of foreigners casting aspersions on it's integrity ~ and this was exactly what the Mccanns were doing by implication. This kind of situation is not good for international relations and poses a threat to international security. Whoops! Hope I haven't instigated another 'government conspiracy' rumour!

In your words Viv, the millions have enabled a 'value added' search for their beloved daughter. Perhaps that is their way of redressing the tax evasion issue ~ you know, by creating their own version of 'value added tax' ~ Lol!

No, my days of attracting the opposite sex are over and no I don't care! It is actually rather pleasant just to let it all hang out without constantly worrying what you look like to the rest of the world - however, still I can't bring myself to inflict it on innocent unsuspecting people, at least not where I live. It could lead to national unrest! Mind you, if that soap actress can do it I'm sure I'm in with a chance ~ second thoughts, I 'aint got no money! Enough of that subject, I don't want Docmac to be disillusioned! He already seems to be stuttering today!

Football? ~ No comment!


A bien-tot!

S.B. said...

Hi Viv..........

Reverting back to your recent comments about high tech buffs trying to shut down your site, this is an issue I raised eons ago elsewhere but as usual I was thwarted by those who know everything about everything! If my memory serves me well, in the very early stages it was agony Aunty Phillo who told the world that the original Mccann website was set up by an ex-pupil of hers in the garden shed. A child prodigy who by now must be capable of usurping Bill Gates himself. I suggested that this very high-tech genius could easily be capable of 'worming' his way into individual computers if Clan Mccann thought it necessary ~ this could explain the thousands of quids identified in the fund accounts as 'website' maintenance!

Actually, the intense heat does make me feel ill but worse than that it frightens me. I get panicky, claustrophobic and feel trapped. I keep going outside to see if there is any coolness in the air. On top of that sleep is very difficult so I panic in the night. This is all exacerbated by the bleeping air conditioning that completely packs-up when the temperature exceeds about 34C.

I am at your mercy so you must guide me as to what I can or can't say. I know that words such as stranger abduction, independent review, witness sightings, long term strategy are all permissible and I understand that words such as homicide, parental abduction, mystery and Leicester police are strictly forbidden but where do stand with other less tenuous words said in all innocence. Must I omit the word police and replace it with private dick? Forget the press and only mention The Sun and News of the World? It is very difficult for me to know what is right and what is wrong.

Now you mention it ~ maybe it was a monkey and not an urchin. It's not always easy to tell the difference.
Seriously, the story about the boy is actually true with a little embellishment so you can easily understand why this country is such a popular destination for sex tourists. It certainly does not help to rid the world of paedophiles but then you already know of my cynical propensities in that direction.

S.B. said...

Viv.....,

I am experiencing a problem with submitting comments also.
Could this be the reason it is quiet? Is it another Gremlin invasion?

Di said...

Hi all

Just looking in and reading back after a couple of sad days.

I am so glad I did, S.B. you have put a smile on my face thank you. x

docmac said...

SB

Filicide is allowed. The word, I mean - not the practice thereof, you understand.

Hi Di

Sending you lots of love and smiles from the deep south. xxx

viv said...

Hello Di, I am glad our lovely SB made you smile again.

I always miss you when you are not around and am so sorry you have been sad.

Lots of big hugs and kisses to you and take care, please email if there is anything I can do to help or just a sympathetic ear.

xxx

docmac said...

Comedy Hour. It takes that long to stop laughing.

S.B. said...

Hello Di......,

I have only just seen your post and I must say how very sorry I am that you are sad.

Sometimes life can be so unkind but perhaps between us we can make you smile a bit more until life seems a bit brighter for you! It has been said that laughter is the best medicine and I think there is a lot of truth in that.

xxx......

Wizard said...

Hi All,

I always become confused by the McCanns tactics which includes the current one allegedly asking Teresa May to re-open the case.

Firstly, if this was a genuine request it would be more fitting for them to ask the Portuguese authorities to re-open their shelved investigation. Of course the trouble with that is the McCanns wouldn’t be able to control the investigation or its outcome which is probably the reason no such request has ever been made by them.

So what case are the McCanns asking the Home Secretary to re-open – the Leicestershire Police’s investigation? The Leicestershire Police as I understand it can only investigate in Portugal at the invitation and with the collaboration of the Portuguese police. Surely the only suspects related to this case in England who can be investigated solely by UK police are the T9 (even this is suspect as the T9 as far as we know have not committed a crime in the UK – well that debatable) and I cannot believe the McCanns are asking for themselves or any of their friends to be investigated.

By contacting the Home Office rather than the Foreign Office suggests that they are asking for the UK police to reopen the case. But what case is this from the McCanns point of view ie it wasn’t me that done it or none of my friends!

The UK and Portuguese police have not been able to find enough evidence to bring about a successful prosecution. The McCanns hapless dicks after some 3 years of attempting to find Madeleine have only found a way to make easy money. So what is the likelihood of any case anywhere being reopened – zilch imo unless further new evidence comes to light.

docmac said...

Wiz

Free publicity = more cash?

Di said...

Thank you all for your kind wishes. It is amazing what a good nights sleep can do to put things into perspective. Yes S.B.laughter works wonders.

viv said...

Di, I am so glad you are feeling a bit better.

Human beings are resilient creatures, it is our capacity to put things into perspective and carry on that enables us to survive adversity. But I certainly know that at times, that can be very tough.

You are among friends here and it is great to see you back and posting again.

xxx
Viv

viv said...

Wiz, thanks for a really great post that does show great insight into the real situation the McCanns face IMO.

If Maddie was genuinely abducted by a stranger from Portugal then the only people they should be lobbying to get the case re-opened are Portugal. UK would simply have no jurisdiction into that matter.


But on the other hand, if they went abroad and harmed Maddie in any way or are committing fraud by seeking money to find her when they know exactly what happened to her, then English Police have very clear jurisdiction against them.

As you so clearly suggest, given they are wanting UK to re-consider the position, that clearly implies they want UK Police to stop investigating them and put pressure on Portugal.

The refusal of the T9 in April 2008 to assist the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine by attending a reconstruction made it inevitable that it would be closed because IMO, both the British and Portuguese Police are very clear. Without them co-operating the disappearance of Madeleine cannot be resolved. They alone have all of the answers.

It is also clear to me that Portugal are more than fair to the McCanns, bring us cogent evidence that Maddie was taken by a stranger and we will re-open the case. IMO, that is something they just cannot do.

viv said...

Trying again to get this to post!



Wiz, thanks for a really great post that does show great insight into the real situation the McCanns face IMO.

If Maddie was genuinely abducted by a stranger from Portugal then the only people they should be lobbying to get the case re-opened are Portugal. UK would simply have no jurisdiction into that matter.


But on the other hand, if they went abroad and harmed Maddie in any way or are committing fraud by seeking money to find her when they know exactly what happened to her, then English Police have very clear jurisdiction against them.

As you so clearly suggest, given they are wanting UK to re-consider the position, that clearly implies they want UK Police to stop investigating them and put pressure on Portugal.

The refusal of the T9 in April 2008 to assist the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine by attending a reconstruction made it inevitable that it would be closed because IMO, both the British and Portuguese Police are very clear. Without them co-operating the disappearance of Madeleine cannot be resolved. They alone have all of the answers.

It is also clear to me that Portugal are more than fair to the McCanns, bring us cogent evidence that Maddie was taken by a stranger and we will re-open the case. IMO, that is something they just cannot do.

viv said...

so it does not show up on the blog for two hours and then when you repost they both come up!

Humm strange goings on again, but at least it gives us a clue when we are getting warm, lol!

May well be just google.

viv said...

Looking at this once more, from the side of this blog, does confirm the situation IMO. Often it does prove the McCanns stragegies by going back in time, they obviously do not make the same mistakes twice. They are still lobbying the Brit Government insisting they are innocent, it is just their presentation to the public has been varied.

I believe the whole raison de etre of their incompent private dicks has been to produce a large volume of bogus "evidence" that Madeleine was taken by a stranger. In that way they desperately suggest, look at all this evidence, how can you still insist we had anything to do with it. As desperate and pathetic as an criminal on the hook!

ANOTHER LUDICROUS GAFF
It is true that we have requested a meeting with the prime minister to show him the strength of our case, to explain Kate and Gerry's innocence and yet all we've been offered is a medium-level-consular meeting, which we rejected.

(The Indispensable Clarence Mitchell)

viv said...

If we need any further confirmation of just how desperate the McCanns are, we only have to look at the reincarnation quite recently of "Gran Cooper" who was warned by Brit cops to stop chatting to the Daily Mirror!

hope4truth said...

Hello

Have the McCanns had their meeting yet with the home sec???

Must say they are very brave )or very stupid) if they get their wish god knows what info will come into the public domain this time...

What if the Home Sec is as sick of their games as we are and actually gets in touch with Portugal and asks for the case to be reopened???

I can see the blame going towards Jane Tanner if that happends she has provided more faces of the abductor than the town hall clock.... Now why would she need to lie when a childs life is in danger? Gerry has already showed her up as a liar to the world in his Documentry pointing out she was wrong about where he was stood....

Shame really she actually looks terified but if she wont help herself or worry about her own children then she deserves all she gets really....

S.B. said...

Hello again Di......,

Just called-in to see if you are feeling any better and I am delighted to see that today you are a little more positive.

Keep it up, you will soon be back to your usual self!

xxx.........

S.B. said...

Evening all..........,

Whilst looking for news of Di, I see Wizards comments which I feel deserve a response.

The particular article here extracted from the Daily Wail is actually riddled with inconsistencies, as is practically everything connected with Clan Mccann. It starts by saying that the Mccanns will meet with Theresa May in a bid to re-open the case. Dismissing the fact that we have no proof of the authenticity of this claim, the report goes on to say that 'a new investigation' could be instigated.

How can it be possible to instigate a new investigation without new evidence? You can't ~ it can only be a continuation of the original investigation with renewed impetus. Then we have the bit about meeting with the Home Secretary to discuss how the search for Madeleine is progressing. Now this is not possible either because there is no ongoing search! As we now all are aware, the Mccanns want the Portuguese to continue to follow-up a dossier full of bogus sightings in order to indefinitely prolong the delusion that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger. This point is confirmed by the Mccanns "calling for a fresh PROBE into the disappearance of their daughter".

Then we are hit with the reality ~ the true reason for all this spin! "The couple requested to meet with the new Home Secretary as part of their push for a review of 'all' the information in the hands of the British and Portuguese authorities". The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is contained in that one sentence.

The previous Home Secretary has already been dragged through the Clan Mccann mire and now Theresa May is being caught in the same net ~ one year on and the same verbiage, the same net result! I query the comment "how a new investigation into Madeleines disappearance might work". Well let me tell you Mr Mitchell ~ it will work in exactly the same way as any other investigation, it will be conducted by the police in conjunction with any other organisation they consider appropriate.

In conclusion, of course the Metropolitan Police have no plans to re-open the case because it was never closed. Nice play on words Mr Mitchell ~ you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. You would do well to remember that!

hope4truth said...

Good post SB some well noted points....

Not sure how much longer the McCanns can play the games they are and as for Mitchel he works for the Conservatives now and as he is a paid spin Dr and along with his band of paid bloggers convinced me the McCanns were guilty of something evil.......

So why should I belive a word the man says when he is spinning for the Government he is a liability...

S.B. said...

Hope.....,

I omitted to say that this single article starts with a bid to re-open the case. Then it moves on to instigating a new investigation. Then it moves on to a review of all information. Then it moves on to a fresh probe. Then it moves on to being a continuation of a report initiated by the previous home secretary. Then we go for another probe. Eventually we end up with the Metropolitan Police not intending to re-open the case anyway.

Now, that's one hell of a 'Scoping exercise'. Worthy of Mr Mccann himself.

viv said...

hiya Hope, good to see you back again too !

I think this new investigation the McCanns want is by Portugal, searching for some fantasy abductor. If Kate and Gerry could pull that one off, finally, everyone would have to believe they are telling the truth and what is more, they could make the millions that they planned to from Maddie the Movie.

I think the McCanns will have strongly relied upon lawyers to try and prove the point, there is unsatisfactory evidence that we did anything to Madeleine, they will be insisting a balance is struck between what their own investigators have uncovered. But the truth is that is precisely nothing, in spite of all the countless millions they have wasted. They had the world looking for a tiny little blond/red head, not a child nearly four with the baby blond hair having seriously faded to brown.

In that way they knew they could encourage loads of sightings and they figure, the more sightings there are, the more likely it is they are telling the truth.

But IMO, it does not matter how angry Gerry gets in seeking to state the police are wrong, they have the basic facts. The McCanns were telling lies to the police from the very first moments. Days later Gerry changed his story in a very fundamental way, innocent parents just have no need to do this. The police have more than enough information to be quite certain the McCanns themselves were involved in getting rid of little Maddie and then mercilessly cashing in.

viv said...

Hiya SB

Gerry is as stubborn as a mule. He thinks if he argues and bullies long enough and lobbies enough politicians he will finally get his own way.

What he wants if for Portugual to just announce they are re-investigating the abduction of Madeleine by a stranger - he has spent the last two and a half years since it was closed insisting upon that, whilst at the same time the T9 refuse to co-operate with the reconstruction which LP and the PJ were very clear was essential. It is stalemate for Gerry, but given his nature, that will not stop him from pursuing a "bit of a scoping exercise" as to how he can proceed with his evil plans to both be effectively declared innocent and carte blanche to make millions.

If he thinks he can browbeat Theresa May the man is even more of a fool than I thought he was. She will be advised by the Police in both countries and it is quite certain what that advice is. No re-investigation by Portugal until they co-operate and clearly they are never going to co-operate because they would all implicate themselves, exactly as Stu Prior wanted them to when he politely sought to persuade them to go.

viv said...

I recall those pretty recent words from Gerry, "there is no evidence against us, did you hear that".

He applied that same rationale in thinking he could just take Goncalo Amaral for over a million pounds. In his obstinate view if there is a lack of evidence of something that means people can be forced to accept he is innocent and if they dare say otherwise they have to pay him. Well tough luck Gerry!

It is a typical criminal mentality to cover all tracks, smirk and then say go ahead and prove it. Not once has this man ever behaved like a concerned and innocent father. No concerned and innocent father would claim to have left three babies night after night with the door open, he said that to try and save his own miserable neck.

hope4truth said...

Hello

The case would have been forgotten about (can anyone name the lady who killed her children in Spain or the poor parents of the 18 month old who fell from the balcony and died?)..... If they had just shut the hell up....

Great ploy in the early days but they even buggered that up by not searching the streets (they may have known there was no point but the world was holding its breath praying she would be found....

They never thought the odd behaviour would be captured forever by the press and looking at them on her 4th Birthday laughing their heads off is disturbing to say the least....

We have Uncle John throwing in a well paid job (or he could have been a cleaner on £5 an hour for all I know but I did buy that bit of spin) to run a company that may have been wound up the next day as she had been found....

If only they were not greedy they could be living life safe in the knowledge they had got away with it but no Gerry likes being a zedceleb and telling the world what to think....

How many more lives will these two ruin before someone puts the Victim Madeleine first because as far as the world is concerned now she is all that matters....

viv said...

Hiya Hope

By going back to early 2008 we can clearly see what the McCanns were about. In their failed logic, they waited with baited breath, feeling pretty confident the police would find no conclusive evidence of what they did with poor little Maddie, such were their failsafe plans to make her disappear into thin air.

Even as they waited, we had floods of so called witnesses all paid by public money conned by Team McCann. Martin Smith, the Nannies, Gran Cooper, the aging tennis players etc etc.

In their perverse view they were not going to get a "shelved investigation pending further evidence", they were going to be "cleared" but they were not.

Since that time, as you say, they have never once managed to shut up, because they are quite determined that in the public eye, they are going to use the powers of millons of pounds and manipulation to change the public's mind about the investigation into them.

Like a couple of grasping leeches they pursued one court action after another and Maddie the Movie. To Kate and Gerry, if they cannot clear their names and cashin everything they did will have all been a waste of time.

The public are not going to change their minds about these two (or their friends who will not speak the truth) and it is high time they learned there is no way to buy or bully yourself out of such a heinous crime.

viv said...

Aside from the most awful pictures of them laughing like a couple of drains just days later on poor Maddie's 4th birthday, the enduring image I have of Gerry is him shaking all over with laughter, to the extent he looked like he had been snorting coke to celebrate, caught through the window by a clever camera man.

The fact that these two do not even have the emotional intellect to appreciate the public view of them and their behaviour just says it all.

Poor little Madeleine, may she one day have the justice she deserves.

viv said...

Really good post from Lizzie who unfortunately we have not heard from for a long time. She has got Gerry taped!

lizzy said...
Hi Viv,
Really good point you made there about psychopaths not being mental, appearing normal but can flip. My mum worked for a time in the mental health review tribunal. This dealt with people who had been sectioned under the mental health act or had committed a crime coming up for review of their case with a view for possible releases by a panel. She said these psychopaths often presented well, had passed various pyschiatrists reports and were recommended for release, on one occasion although everything looked as if this person would be released, at the last minute the judge said no. Well this normal seeming guy exploded in rage, he showed his true colours. Theya re capable of appearing normal but sometimes cannot hide their rage. My mum also told me one interesting fact re them, they have no consience they feel no remorse. They justify things to themself and that suffices. So most peoples picture of a pyschopath seeming odd, or having apparent mental problems isn;t right, they appear as normal as you and I.
Saturday, 2 February 2008 00:03:00

docmac said...

Viv and all.

Have a read here. I am amazed that this very, very well written article got so few responses. Heartbreaking stuff. It synthesizes perfectly the kind of parents Madeleine and her sibs were landed with :-(

docmac said...

HSDPA/HSUPA? What's up with that? My connection is usually faster than a criminal trying to find somewhere to hide a body.

It's so slow right now it brings to mind the way I felt soon after a cardiology exam in 4th year. We were at the pub, if memory serves, and I could not recall whether I'd left my old Volksie's lights on. Or if I'd locked the doors. However, despite the fact that my squeeze at the time had noticed a number of crims hanging about, I'd 'had a few', and I was into the crowd. And I do remember thinking she was replacable in the unlikely event...

As it turns out, she was not. And I learned something very useful. Always park your car inside the pub (if that's where I was).

Wizard said...

Morning All,

Nowadays the behaviour of criminals is often minimised and excuses are made for their actions, blame is always shifted elsewhere by the criminal and by those in authority who comment. The same authorities bend over backward to ensure that the criminal’s human rights are not infringed. They are helped and fawned over at the price of forgetting their victims who are the ones who pay for the crimes committed. I must say I get fed up with it.

This type of behaviour is widespread and clearly can be observed in the McCann case. The victim is almost forgotten in an attempt by authorities to show unbiased actions in their dealings with the parents of Madeleine.

A number of people in authority are simply thick and in the political arena this statistic imo increases. This brings me onto, Oxford educated, Theresa May who recently took up the poison chalice of Home Secretary. Ms May over the past few years has been so busy in self-promotion she will only have a cursory understanding of this case – ie what she reads in the Mail et al. Her advisers, unfortunately, will not be a lot better so we will no doubt see Ms May hedging her bets attempting to be all things to all people with the exception of course of the victim. The police nowadays are also very politically correct so they will not paint a clear picture. When will political correctness come to an end and people tell it as it is? Not for a long time imo with the likes of Carter-Fuck waiting in the wings.

docmac said...

Wizard

Methinks your left index finger got a little trigger-happy before moving itself up to that R. In my circles here in SA they have been called Farter-Kuck. But we have different keyboards. That's my defence anyway ;-)

Politicians over there are thick? Julius Malema (that's SA-speak for an allegedly historical and authoritative figure more commonly known as JC), who would have thought. Seriously, though - spot on.

S.B. said...

Wizard.......,

You have echoed my opinion about how criminals are excused and shown leniency for the crimes they commit, all in the interest of human rights, political correctness and interfering do-gooders! Some examples of which absolutely infuriate me. A known terrorist being allowed to escape extradition because his/her safety may be jeopardized if returned to their native country! No consideration given to the victims of said offenders actions, actions carried out with the deliberate intention of mass destruction of innocent people. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

I also agree with your opinion of 'political correctness'! We are now at the stage where we are not 'allowed' to voice our opinions, smoke in public, drive without wearing a helmet, leave rubbish out for the dustman, show public display of affection for ones own children, drink too much, ingest salt, get exercise, don't get exercise, get fat, get thin blah, blah, blah!

Di said...

Hi all

Excellent posts Lizzy and Wizard and I could not agree more.

However there is also another side to this. Mentally ill patients are routinely let down by the NHS as they just do not have the resources. Many patients who should be sectioned are released to fend for themselves as the treatment is far too expensive. Also many hospitals do not have the trained staff to care for these desperately ill people.

A sad situation all round.

Di said...

Hello Hope

How right you are, if they had just kept quiet they could have got on with their lives.

That is the point I think, if after returning to Rothley they had disappeared from view I think people would have thought them guilty. There are also those who say they must be innocent otherwise they would shut up.

Gerry is very clever, he hopes people will think the latter and cash in off the back of it.

I also remember Father Pacheco's words "I was deceived" how many other people have been as well!

S.B. said...

'Allo!

The life threatening deadly TB bacterium strikes again! This times it has invaded YouTube videos identifying itself as a rhetorical rendition of "48 Unanswered Questions" by Kate Mccann. Anyone at risk of exposure to this fatal affliction are advised to contact their nearest sanatorium before the disease becomes pandemic. There is no known antedote for TB so it is in your own interest to avoid contact with infected persons.

If you have reason to think you are at risk of contanmination it is strongly recommended that you immediately cleanse body and mind with a suitable alcohol based sedative, otherwise you might die laughing.

Think this is a joke? ~ Check it out! This individual is a liability. When this case is finally resolved who/what will be his next project ~ de-throning Her Majesty?

docmac said...

Hi Viv

Been wondering recently about the seeming loss of interest in Madeleine's plight. I was quite disheartened to see the stats today. However - look where most of the searches came from! You have been interested in the 'Irish question' before. I mean, those searches were not all conducted by Martin Smith, surely? ;-)

Chuffed to see that SA did a Netherlands there. More searches from here than from the UK. Amazing.

Wizard said...

Hi Doc,

LOL – Cater-Fuck is the name given to the law firm by Private Eye magazine who have had many run-ins with them. What can I say in my defence - the name just stuck!

hope4truth said...

Morning

Looking at the picture of them at the top of the page it strikes me how old and haggard they both look...

The loss of a child will make any parent age and if that child is missing will etch worry lines on their face on a daily basis....

It is just a shame they only started to look worried when it was fast becoming obvious no one belived them and Gerry is worried sick the cash will dry up and their band of paid helpers will tell them to Naff off now they dont have 30 pieces of silver with which to pay for them to spin, blog, control the media, sue or pay for their defence....

Kate looked lovely in PDL a day or so after Maddie was in the depths of hell. Gerry was a happy confident bunny as well as they jogged for the media while the peasents of PDL gave up their time to search for the daughter they want the world to belive was so worthless she was neglected and dumped in a creche all holiday....

Then we have the raident shots of them on her 4th Birthday and the ever so happy shot with Uncle John holiding up a tacky huge TSHIRT with a picture of a neglected child on it.....

So many huge huge smiles it wasnt until they were made Arguidos that they started to look worried even then it was tinged with a sense of arrogance (find the body prove we killed her)....

God knows what the Tapas children will make of it all in about 5 years time when they snatch a look at the WWW when Mum and Dad are not around?

Tough questions will follow.....

Wizard said...

Hi Di,

I was interested in reading you post re: crimes committed by the mentally ill. I have to agree with you about the lack of resources in this country to deal with issues related to mental health problems – it’s the Cinderella of the Health Service.

I like many others believed we lived in a country where the NHS provides help, but this is so patchy for mental health problems as to be non existent in some areas. It is difficult to accept that a lot of the care provided (when and if it is) is no better than a third world country i.e. non existent or very poor. If you are wealthy you can buy in services – otherwise suffers and their families are on their own!

Conversely it is all too easy to put psychological spin onto people’s criminal behaviour. To me to murder someone must mean the killer is mad as no-one would do this in their right mind. But if my yardstick of madness was applied across the board I think most prisons would be empty.

Prison population could be so high because pschopathic traits are not counted as a legal defence.

I still think killers are mad by virtue of their crime - but am I right!

Wizard said...

Sometime ago there was confusion as to which official government body was dealing with the Madeleine McCann case i.e. The Home Office or the Foreign Office. I remember correspondence sent to the Home Office being passed over to the Foreign & Commonwealth Office for reply.

JM today reproduces part of a letter from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office that highlights their observations in December 2009 concerning MBM.

“The FCO filed the case in May 2009. You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the Needham case are categorised as a missing person, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted.”

Hedging their bets with this reply but at least we have the FO saying there is no evidence to support an abduction – which is at least something and says exactly what they think of Tanner’s apparent sighting of the alleged abductor.

It is little wonder the McCanns approached the Home Office recently they must have already eyeballed the FO letter – lol.

viv said...

Hello guys, not been around so working backwards looking at some great posts!

Wiz,

Thanks very much for your above post.

I recall Kate McCann clearly stating that the only possible scenario given they were not involved was an abduction by a stranger. Here you have produced evidence from our own government they do not accept that position.

That really does epitomise just what Kate and Gerry are up against and why they keep battling with the Home Office. Why Gerry insists on a "review" (well agreed his terminology for whatever it is he wants does get a little confused) - he wants a different conclusion to be reached.

I have always tried to stress that Maddie does have human rights and whilst there is no clear evidence of precisely what happened to her she is entitled to the official status as a missing person so that all hope for finding her is not just given up on.

It was also incredibly damning for the McCanns when Goncalo had his hearing (which I think he knew he would lose, but result nevertheless). Mr Menezes very clear stated THEY could have been charged with kidnapping and trafficking Madeleine. I think we got the nearest to the truth there. I remain convinced Gerry in particular has always been keen to simply make loads of money out of little Maddie and I think his abuse of her goes even beyond that. To me that explains exactly the interest of CEOP in this case, they specifically deal with abuse of children abroad, trafficking, exploitation of children etc.

I really hope I am not proved wrong but given just how disastroud the first round against Goncalo actually was, we will be hearing no more from the McCanns about how they need to extract one million from him to continue to fund the search for Madeleine. They could end it any time they choose.

I am not categorically stating I believe Maddie is still alive, but I believe she was when they got rid of her and there is a clear chance she still is. I think it is possible Gerry actually has to gain official acceptance they are not involved before he can even consider "finding" her, because then all his dreams would come true. Maddie the Movie etc. I believe the police and us internetters seriously foiled his repugnant plans, grandiose, conceived in the sick brain of a narcissist/pscychopath and gone along with by a wife who is hardly much better.

Di said...

Hi all

So glad the Raoul Moat page has been removed from Facebook. I am at a loss to understand what was going on there, over 30,000 people supporting him and calling him a hero, are these people mad!!

Several deaths and that poor totally innocent policeman, who is only alive because he played dead, has now found out he is blind, so so sad.

Di said...

Hi Wizard

Sorry, I perhaps did not get my comment across correctly.

I was not meaning only criminals but mentally ill people in general.

However, saying that, it now appears that Raoul Moat did have a mental disorder, certainly from reading his diary he does not seem of sound mind.

Therefore the question has to be asked, were the signs there before he was released and were they ignored?

Di said...

I have just read that the police officer blinded by Raoul Moat arrested him a year ago over a dodgy van.

Perhaps it was not a random shooting, and looks like Raoul knew exactly who he was targeting.

S.B. said...

Evening all.......,

I am the first to admit that the NHS is in need of drastic improvement but on the other hand I think that it is largely taken for granted by the majority within the UK. It is not until the facility is no longer available that you realise it's truth worth and appreciate the sterling work undertaken by NHS staff under adverse conditions and constant criticism, quite frequently unfounded or grossly exaggerated.

Taking the example of mental health issues, as has been clarified here by Viv, Wizard, Di et al, this area is immensely diverse in its complexity, so much so that it becomes difficult to identify any one problem as a specific illness, hence each patient must be individually assessed in order to treat in the same way as physical illness. At work in the UK I was continuously hounded by the Unions and Associations to provide facilities within the workplace to cater for just about every physical disability known to the medical world. If you look at this logically you will draw the same conclusion as I, the proposal is impractical, not financially viable and largely unnecessary. I think this example can also be applied to the NHS.

In an ideal world everything would be perfect but this is not an ideal world. The NHS is funded by public money; it is not a bottomless pit so priorities must be established in order to provide the best care possible within limited resources

Also I must dispute the comparison between health care within the UK and countries that do not have the benefit of a health service. From my own experience I can say that if anybody who is spoiled by the luxury of the NHS were to be compelled to receive treatment by medical establishments available in some countries you would never complain about the NHS again.

My mother recently had a minor operation in a local clinic. Firstly, unless you pay up-front you don't receive treatment. So you pay for all the preliminary requirements e.g. ECG, blood test, pre-med in addition to the actual cost of the operation. Then you pay for after-care, medication etc. The clinic itself lacked all the comforts that you automatically expect from the NHS ~ such as clean bedding (what bedding?), chairs to sit on and reassuring ambiance. I even fell 'a' over 'h' walking from one room to another because the floor was being washed in the middle of the day.

So please have a little compassion and appreciation for the good of the NHS and be grateful for what you've got!

viv said...

I think that when pscyhiatrists are confronted with a recognised problem with the functioning of the brain like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia they are trained to deal with that and have a battery of drugs they can offer the patient which will reduce psychosis and mania so some patients can function at a normal level with the right drugs. Of course whether they continue to take them is another matter and that is where they need more assistance in the community, I believe to keep them out of hospital when their illness becomes unmanageable.

But psychiatrists have long fought shy of trying to treat those with no recognised brain disorder, it is their thinking style and personality that makes them behave as they do. This is where psychologists try to make a difference by trying to teach that person to think in a more normal way and develop victim empathy.

I am pretty sure there are statistics that confirm, crimes of violence are not committed any more often by those with a recognised mental health problem that someone without such a problem.

It is more often people with psychological disturbance who behave in this way. What you are describing with Moat Di, does not sound like a mental health issue but more a question of his personality and thinking style. An act of pure revenge on a police officer who arrested him for what was after all a fairly petty crime.

But there are lots of offenders with mental health problems, it is just they are no so often violent offenders. Often they have "dual diagnosis", alongside their mental health problem they are drug dependant, a cycle of depression and trying to self medicate to cope with that.

viv said...

Developing services specifically for women and those with mental health problems were issues I was very interested in as a probation officer, but before I left in 2006, it was announced that those were two casualties of cuts in the budget. There are young probation officers being trained up on how to fill in a lengthy assessment form, thought out by psychologists. To my horror one of them commented to me "we don't do mental health". Given that up to about 70 per cent of offenders have some sort of mental health or psychological disorder that was a startling comment to make and demonstrates the apathy and lack of training in what is so crucial to propertly and compassionately managing offenders. So many of them would not dream of attacking anyone, they are petty drug dealers, shoplifters, drivers whilst disqualified, petty benefit fraudsters etc. If we actually want to cut the nuisance crime they commit we should be putting in far more resources to better training for staff, including probation officers and better resources in the community for probation staff to refer on.

I pointed out to this young officer that her client with schizophrenia should not receive such a negative attitude. He could be managed in the community as as part of his order should could make it a condition that he complies with proper treatment and work with his psychiatrist to seek to achieve this.

When there is such an emphasis on new probation officers simply looking at the risks an offender poses and how to manage those, rather than obtaining proper treatment for them it is little wonder that we have a massive prison population. If probation officers are not even picking up these offenders have sometimes very serious mental health problems they are just being put into prison with no help at all. That is a national disgrace.

It is very hard to understand the difference between mad or bad, but those convicted of murder are bad, they often have serious personality disorder but they knew exactly what they were doing. That is the definition for a conviction for murder, you must have the requisiste "intent". If you are genuinely mentally ill you are not capable of forming that intent and with decent legal representation should plead not guilty to murder but guilty to manslaughter - diminished responsibility, this at least achieves the treatment route rather than prison. But whether that is a better option can sometimes be debatable. But we should remember, relatively speaking homicide is still a rare crime.

viv said...

Hiya SB

One thing I certainly do support the new government in is a reduction in managerialism, where you have overpaid people sitting in luxury offices and getting paid a lot more than the people who are actually doing the job. The idea was born that these managers did not even need to understand the work, i.e. health service managers did not need to come from a health background, it was all about budgets and targets.

So we got the NHS developing in a way that they would carry out masses of routine and simple operations to hit targets and get more funding. It is very hard to set a target for someone with a serious mental health problem they will have all of their life and as Di suggests they have been left floundering for years.

It was just the same in the probation service, put loads of offenders through cognitive behavioural programmes, regardless of whether it was suitable or helpful for that particular offender. In that way managers could say look what a high performing area we are, we are hitting all our targets. The trouble is they were not making any difference to most of the offenders. They were just after more cash in the budget and more "££ performance related pay".

Cleaning out the quangos and the fat cats and reverting back to getting proper work done, will be a long job!

viv said...

Doc

Thanks for the statistics that demonstrate that Ireland, notably Dublin, is the highest area of all in terms of searching "Madeleine McCann".

I think we are right to feel this has a lot to do with Gerry's Irish roots, not just Martin Smith and his amazing flashbacks, unsupported by his wife.

viv said...

Wiz, I do think that given Carter Fuck was deemed appropriate for Private Eye, it is also appropriate terminology on here.

There is some sort of connection with them and people from hell. Their clients, Kate and Gerry McCann, Trafigura.

viv said...

Kate: Well I think there was a sighting in Amsterdam...

Oh really!

viv said...

The life threatening deadly TB bacterium

SB It is not just Di you know, you make me really chuckle at times as well:-))))

docmac said...

Just been reminded on another forum that whilst the cops were searching for Maddie at Murat's place the parents had more pressing matters to attend to at Huelva. Oh well.

hope4truth said...

Morning Doc

It is comments like the above that show them up as the liars they are...

They did not have a clue how to act and since when did parents of a missing child lead the investigation?

It could have well been Murat who had taken her and she could have been returned at any second...

But oh no if she had been found alive and crying for her parents she would have just had to wait a bit longer as they were in Spain...

Story of Maddies life really dumped at every oportunity and her sick Mother even thinks it is amusing she cried for them the night before she was taken to the depths of hell....

My Word Verification today is fooke I think that sums up their life in one word if you add a d...

docmac said...

Morning Hope

Yes...

Have mailed you an interesting document from the FCO. Check near the bottom.

Mine was 'fooke' too, btw.

Wizard said...

Statistically there are more people diagnosed as psychopaths in prison than any other single section of the population. This diagnosis, similarly to narcissism or paranoid narcissism as in the Moat case, cannot be used as a defence argument in court. But these conditions cause deviant behaviour to those who have them. So is it fair they should be put in prison? Well…yes for the safety of the public but for no other reason.

It is interesting to note that narcissists always minimise their behaviour and blame others. They like to be in control and believe they are better than everyone else and their anger rages when they perceive anyone challenging their inflated belief in themselves. So perhaps it is not too far fetched to include GM in this category. However, he has married and holds down a responsible job. Things I’m not sure a full blown narcissist could do but I think it’s safe to say he appears to have a lot of narcisstic traits.

I think Viv explains the difficulty and cost of mental health problems to the NHS well. Medicine is not an exact science and mental health issues are even less so. Very simple tests can be carried out to diagnose physical illnesses then tried and trusted proceeds can be employed to treat conditions. Most people with physical illness will take the medication if prescribed even if it’s for life, however, schizophrenic and other psychiatric illness suffers after awhile will not and because of their “Human Rights” cannot be forced to do so. Hence the revolving door of hospitalisations and when the medics get fed up with them prisons.

Imo if you want an answer to why so many people are sent to prison in the UK as opposed to our European counterparts I think lack of appropriate facilities for psychiatric conditions is a major factor. The closure of the large mental health hospitals and a care in the community policy looks very good on paper but in reality it’s a disaster as it costs too much to be effective.

I apologies for being somewhat off topic but prison reform is a bit of a pet subject of mine.

docmac said...

Wiz

I know a number of narcissists. All married, bar one. And all professionals too. Good drinking pals, though.

docmac said...

Here we go.

I think Bennett's youtube video was a masterstroke myself. Sorry, Viv. I disagree with you on very few things. Like Bennett. And murder.

docmac said...

Stupid bint

hope4truth said...

God Doc

Dont get me started on that silly cow....

It shows how our society in England is going to the dogs though she is as thick as a brick....

As she is a Mother I hope to god a nutter never hurts them when they are older and leaves her heartbroken (although this sort of scum would probebly sell her heartbreak story to the press and get off on the publicity)...

God help us all if Stupid Bitches like her are our future....

hope4truth said...

Thanks for the mail Doc

So if the powers that be dont class it as an abduction how come the McCanns keep insisting that it was???

Bit like their trip to Huluva when Murats place was being searched they knew she could not be there..... How do they know it is ok to trust their freinds so fully especialy with one missing most of the evening?

Answer because they know what happend and where they want to divert attention to....

viv said...

Thanks for the link Doc, it just demonstrates what a large underclass of people there are, anti social, anti police, anti victim.

It is truly shocking, not just their own conduct, but that Facebook think that promoting violence and fear in someone who has already been terrorised and shot, is something they should allow. I think it is just what attracts attention for Facebook, never mind if it is lawful or reasonable behaviour.

They did not seem to mind they are endangering children by refusing to have a panic button or that they set up a haven for paedophiles, hunting their prey: innocent little children who understand nothing of their wiles.

If they are not prepared to better police that site, it should be closed down IMO on public safety grounds.

Does Facebook really want to get a areputation for being the in place for the dregs of Society?

It is not reasonable to have any sympathy at all IMO for a callous and vicious murderer. I was delighted when I heard he was dead. End of and saving the tax payers huge expense in having to give him legal aid/bed and board. He is not worth it.

S.B. said...

Hi Viv........,

Thanks for the response! I agree wholeheartedly with your views concerning the need to rid the NHS of highly paid superfluous employees who know little or nothing about the medical profession. However, I also think there are many other identifiable areas where valuable resources are wasted at floor level and I am not talking of Gerald and Kate Mccann, although that is an issue worthy of consideration.

In my opinion this is a problem prevalent in most large conglomerates, particularly public enterprise where uncontrollable growth leads to saturation. Each new problem area identified requires another department to resolve the problem, funding is redirected to support new divisions and the organisation expands to such an extent that they forget their original purpose! Naturally it follows that once a new department is created there is reluctance to abolish it and so it is allowed to continue to operate ad infinitum with no constructive purpose. Standards are forgotten whilst staff spend their whole time trying to justify their existence!

I have a tendency to over simplify just about everything because I believe there is invariably a simple solution to most problems. The real problem lies with a reluctance to redress the situation, again in order to preserve their own livelihood folk refuse to cooperate. They prefer to put obstacles in the way which is understandable I guess, considering human nature, but nonetheless it does not help a dire situation which is already beyond control.

As you say Viv, effecting change is a long job but not impossible!

docmac said...

Hope

You're welcome. Yep.

Viv

You're welcome. Yep

Word verification: goguava. LOL! Jeez!

viv said...

9.04 today, excellent explanatory post Wiz, lucidly explaining a very complex subject, thanks.

viv said...

Hiya SB, great post and again demonstrating we do think alike in a number of ways.

To take my pet example again, huge sums were being spent by ever increasing numbers of probation managers on pretty high salaries, even in my own small area, the Chief Officer (who has no probation qualification) decided that she needed three assistant chief officers instead of two. They are paid on a scale from £50,000 upwards. It was one of those that was mainly responsible for serious discrimination against me, her high salary level did not teach her empathy or indeed the law, she had no understanding of the Disability Discrimination Act at all which requires employers to treat disabled staff more favourably by making "reasonable adjustments" to enable them to be able to carry on working. In my case it was simple things like a comfortable chair, leg rest, home working. When she understood that I knew the law extremely well the real nastiness started..it is because it ended my career that it has cost them such a lot. Hardly good management practice or effective use of the budget.

Even the Labour Government were targeting the probation services and a poor rate of return in terms of reducing re-offending in comparison with the vast budget. Probation trusts have now been created opening up the prospect of competitive tendering for services for offenders and rather than simply hitting artificial targets to get more money, services will have to produce real results by the rate of re-offending being properly measured.

In readiness for this fat cats at the top of probation areas are already disappearing. Two huge areas West Midlands and Staffordshire have merged to form one large trust. This means they only need one Chief Officer instead of two and far less Assistant Chiefs and other ancillary staff like human resources and technology. But, so far in Warwickshire the Chief Officer I finished up seeing in tribunal for weeks at a time over a period of 5 years is standing firm with her little Warwickshire empire and I know what she has personally cost them!

Wizard said...

As we often talk about Messrs Carter Fuck I’ve just found the article below. I doubt it will have then shaking in their boots but I suppose it’s a step in the right direction.

"New libel laws to protect freedom of the Press Daily Mail

By Steve Doughty
Last updated at 5:39 AM on 10th July 2010

Ministers yesterday promised new libel laws to loosen the grip of the courts on the work of academics, science authors and investigative journalists. They said current law is restricting freedom of expression and threatening researchers with unjust and costly court cases. The new legislation will also tackle 'libel tourism', the use of British courts to silence critics of the rich and powerful around the world.

The pledge by Justice Minister Lord McNally came during a Lords debate on a Private Member's Bill.

He said: 'We need investigative journalism and scientific research to be able to flourish without fear of unfounded, lengthy and costly defamation and libel cases. We want to focus on ensuring a right and a fair balance is struck between freedom of expression and the protection of reputation.'

The Defamation Bill will be put before Parliament next year. It may also consider consider fees charged by lawyers in no-win no-fee libel cases.

'It should no longer be a matter for judges but Parliamentarians should decide on how we balance free expression and reputation.'"

docmac said...

by preciousramotswe » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:52 am
HB, there are stats that I found about this on the Amarals' 'greatest hits' thread which are from the NSPCC, and which do show that for children under 5 it's parents that harm them in over 70% of cases.
However that was for murdered children, there doesn't really appear to be anything specific for reported abductions.


Um... whose side are you on then? Ouch.

Molo, Precious. Kunjani?

viv said...

Probably one of the brighter Pros, if there is such a thing from my recollection of this poster on 3 As, maybe also realises most child abductions are by parents!

So statistically the McCanns have a very high chance, particularly given the other factors noted in studies below, on holiday, from home etc.

Narcisstic, ummm yea I know, Gerry does see Madeleine as nothing more than his personal cash cow IMO. Horrifying though that is.

viv said...

Profiles of Abductors

The exact known number of parental abductions in Canada and the United States are unknown, where figures can range from approximately 400 a year in Canada to 350 000 per year in the United States. To address the concerns of these abductions, the Missing Children’s Registry, Royal Canadian Mounted Police requested the development of an overview which may help create an overview or profile of a parental abductor. Some of the following information they reviewed may be used to construct a profile, but also give us some general guidelines and knowledge about parental abductions:

Both the mother and father are likely to abduct their own child.
Mothers tended to abduct their child after a court order is made while fathers tend to abduct their child before a court order.
Mothers who abduct their children tend to keep them for a longer time than fathers who abduct.
The age range for abducting parents is 28 to 40 years.
Fathers are usually employed while the mothers are more likely to be unemployed. Socio-economic factors vary from case to case.
Few studies have identified a psychological or sociological profile of the abducting parent.
The majority of children are between three and seven years of age. Children taken out of the country tend to be older (i.e., over the age of eight years).
Both male and female children are equally likely to be abducted.
Children tend to be taken from the home. They are less likely to be taken from another residence or from a school yard.
Most searching parents report the abduction of the child to the police on the day it occurred. There is, however, a large proportion of searching parents who delay in reporting the incident.
Communication usually occurs between the searching parent and the abductor.
The majority of parental abductions are short-term and resolved within seven days.
Various modes of transportation are used to move the child.
Children tend to be taken during weekends or summer or winter holidays.
The parent abducting the child tends not to use physical force.
Accomplices are used in less than half the cases, they are usually family members or current partners.
Sexual and physical abuse occurs in a small percentage of the cases. Studies on this issue must be interpreted with extreme caution.

viv said...

Reasons for Abducting

A key question that we must ask is the motivations underlying the abduction of the child by a parent. In other words, why do family members take children? Is it for love? The answer suggested by Hilgeman (2001), is usually not, where the typical motivation for family abduction is power, control and revenge. These characteristics are also prevalent in domestic violence cases. In fact, family abduction is really a form of family violence. Some abductors may believe they are rescuing the child, but rarely do they resort to legal approaches for resolution. Some abductors are so narcissistic that they do not have the ability to view their children as separate entities from themselves. These abductors believe since they hate the other parent, that the child should as well. Sometimes abductors feel disenfranchised and have a culturally different perspective regarding child rearing and parenting. They may miss and want to return to their country of origin with the child.

viv said...

the above very interesting extracts were copied from "Victims of Violence"

http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=354&Itemid=44

viv said...

"the typical motivation for family abduction is power, control and revenge. These characteristics are also prevalent in domestic violence cases. In fact, family abduction is really a form of family violence."


I would ask that people just think again about all those bruises Kate had and her demeanour and Gerry's - which is quite different. Gerry can so often be seen to be putting on an act of being pleasant and then completely losing it.

viv said...

perhaps most pointedly of all with the tiny little lady, Sandra Filgeiras. IMO, Gerry sees women as just one thing, there to be used and controlled.

The furious looks at Kate when she gets her lines wrong have so often been seen also IMO. Particularly more recently with their "stress" over the troublesome Portuguese issue, Mr Goncalo Amaral.

viv said...

I would just love a no holds barred conversation with Goncalo where he could say what he truly believes to be the case, but I think he has to be very careful what he says, not just because of some injunction.

viv said...

Thanks Wiz

I like to think the McCann case is helping to steer parliamentarians towards a shakeup of libel law.

It was patently unjust that they were allowed to further profit from their own serious criminal behaviour.

The key phrases in that article are "protection of reputation", some would say the McCanns are not entitled to expect a good reputation. And the other, no win no fee cases, clearly exploited to the full by the grasping McCanns when at the peak of their sue fest. I think they do learn some very painful lessons.

hope4truth said...

Morning All

Amaral facinates me..... The Pros want him to be shown as a fat money grabbing creep who did not find Maddie and is now trying to make money out of her....

They fall down on many counts as he was a mere policeman who had no cooperation from the T7 and the parents did all they could to give false information...

Also if there was strong evidence they were involved in her abduction or death and for whatever reason his hands were tied investigating it then he could do no more....

The McCanns overpaid detectives have fared even worse all that money and not a single lead so as the saying goes "people in glass houses"...

It is so important for Pros to slate the PJ and mostly Amaral but they cant belive what they write (and some are not paid to belive what they write)...

He has no money as it has been frozen and I dont belive money was what made him write the book...

There are things in there that are for want of a better word assumed but I think it was written so he would be sued by them and they played into his hands...

Amaral has been made out to be the bad guy with Torture claims (could not work out what he had been found guilty of the torture of Leonor but he was not there when it happend but he knew about it???) anyway as much as I am against torture or dodgey police practices you only have to go back to the 80s here and some police could be accused of the same go back to the 70s and many more could.....

For the Pros to worship an evil bitch like Leonor shows the desperartion of them they hope the general public will latch onto this "poor" woman and think oooo poor Kate....

Dig a little deeper and Leonor abused all her children and her Brother admits they killed Joana..... The pros however can do nothing but sing her praises...

Which makes me think they know exactly what kind of cold hearted bitch Kate is what will they do next sing the praises of Myra Hindley (if Amaral had been around at the time of her capture I think they would)....

Amaral is a stubbon man who was not going to be pushed aside by a couple of child abusing Brits... He was and is on the side of the victim the little girl whoes parents cant even be bothered to search for and laughed their heads off on her Birthday... By making them take him to court some of the information they wanted to keep buried came out...

Gerry was furious and smug Fiona was sent to keep an eye on Kate when he had to go home....

Looking forward to the day they try and sue him for his Million maybe it will be too much for our press to resist and they will print the facts of the trial for all the world to read paper sales will go through the roof if they dare...

Just a bit of advice for Amaral should he be sued have a load of T Shirts printed with the McCanns beaming faces on them with the words....

Gerry and Kate 9 days after telling the world their child was in the hands of Peadophiles on Madelienes 4th Birthday. Cant you tell how devestated they are?

A picture speaks a thousand words....

hope4truth said...

Morning All

Amaral facinates me..... The Pros want him to be shown as a fat money grabbing creep who did not find Maddie and is now trying to make money out of her....

They fall down on many counts as he was a mere policeman who had no cooperation from the T7 and the parents did all they could to give false information...

Also if there was strong evidence they were involved in her abduction or death and for whatever reason his hands were tied investigating it then he could do no more....

The McCanns overpaid detectives have fared even worse all that money and not a single lead so as the saying goes "people in glass houses"...

It is so important for Pros to slate the PJ and mostly Amaral but they cant belive what they write (and some are not paid to belive what they write)...

He has no money as it has been frozen and I dont belive money was what made him write the book...

There are things in there that are for want of a better word assumed but I think it was written so he would be sued by them and they played into his hands...

Amaral has been made out to be the bad guy with Torture claims (could not work out what he had been found guilty of the torture of Leonor but he was not there when it happend but he knew about it???) anyway as much as I am against torture or dodgey police practices you only have to go back to the 80s here and some police could be accused of the same go back to the 70s and many more could.....

For the Pros to worship an evil bitch like Leonor shows the desperartion of them they hope the general public will latch onto this "poor" woman and think oooo poor Kate....

Dig a little deeper and Leonor abused all her children and her Brother admits they killed Joana..... The pros however can do nothing but sing her praises...

Which makes me think they know exactly what kind of cold hearted bitch Kate is what will they do next sing the praises of Myra Hindley (if Amaral had been around at the time of her capture I think they would)....

Amaral is a stubbon man who was not going to be pushed aside by a couple of child abusing Brits... He was and is on the side of the victim the little girl whoes parents cant even be bothered to search for and laughed their heads off on her Birthday... By making them take him to court some of the information they wanted to keep buried came out...

Gerry was furious and smug Fiona was sent to keep an eye on Kate when he had to go home....

Looking forward to the day they try and sue him for his Million maybe it will be too much for our press to resist and they will print the facts of the trial for all the world to read paper sales will go through the roof if they dare...

Just a bit of advice for Amaral should he be sued have a load of T Shirts printed with the McCanns beaming faces on them with the words....

Gerry and Kate 9 days after telling the world their child was in the hands of Peadophiles on Madelienes 4th Birthday. Cant you tell how devestated they are?

A picture speaks a thousand words....