7 Aug 2010


McCanns meet May in Madeleine probe

Kate and Gerry McCann have held talks with Home Secretary Theresa May to discuss the search for their missing daughter Madeleine.

The couple used the meeting on Wednesday to appeal for extra help from the coalition Government to look for the little girl. It is more than three years since Madeleine disappeared from a holiday resort in southern Portugal.

Mr and Mrs McCann, from Rothley, Leicestershire, want a full independent review of the police investigation into what happened to their daughter.

They complained in February that they encountered "reluctance" when they asked the British authorities to re-examine all the information held by law enforcement agencies around the world.

Mr McCann said: "I think people are reluctant to undertake a review because there's been difficult, sensitive issues. But Madeleine's rights should be put first. She's missing, she's innocent and whoever's taken her is still out there, and that has to be of paramount importance."

A Home Office spokesman said: "The Home Secretary held a private meeting with Kate and Gerry McCann on Wednesday to discuss the case of their missing daughter Madeleine. The Government's primary concern in this matter is the wellbeing of Madeleine McCann and to ensure that everything feasible is being done to progress the search for her."

Madeleine was three when she went missing from her family's holiday flat in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3 2007 as her parents dined with friends nearby.

Portuguese police launched a massive investigation with the support of British officers but the inquiry was formally shelved in July 2008 without reaching any firm conclusions about the child's fate.

Private detectives employed by the McCanns are continuing to investigate the case.

McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "I can confirm that Kate and Gerry met the Home Secretary on Wednesday to continue their discussions with the Government over what can be done to assist the search for Madeleine. As with all their private Governmental contacts, the details of the discussion with Theresa May will remain confidential."


viv said...

Given this is a meeting with the British Home Secretary, the review of the police investigation the McCanns are asking for is clearly the one within Teresa May's remit, the British one.

There is a notable word missing here from the McCann point of view, they want a review of the investigation into what happened to their daughter, not the abduction of their daughter. That is obviously the problem here for Kate and Gerry, the investigation did not focus on all the fake leads and sightings the McCanns have sought to bombard the police with to, AHEM, prove Maddie was abducted by some strange lurking predator who may have been instructed by a Victoria Beckham lookalike according the last top briefing by the McCanns super sleuth employees, Mitchell and Madder.

Oh no, this investigation they are so upset about, why, It focussed on them! Now do they seriously believe Teresa May is going to right that terrible wrong done to them so they can make Maddie the Movie, erm, erm... well erm, you know, I am not so sure about that lol!

viv said...

But as ever we have bloggers who have all the right answers, er, apparently, it is simples.

Teresa simply tells the Portuguese to re-open the case and tells the McCanns to get their sorry arses over there answer the questions and do the reconstruction, no doubt their sorry arsed mates too. Now which world do these people live in, the one where the houses are made of Ginger Bread?

Maybe Kate and Gerry should be detained in the Tower and given the attention of the Scavanger's Daughter or something?

viv said...

Big L has the scoop on this one again, I see.

I must say I am rather pished about Theresa May's attitude here, Gerry too I am sure, even though he also prioritises his hair, but that must be very strong Grecian 2000 he is using. I wonder if he sought any tips from Theresa on how to get a more soft natural colour than the jet black? Was he trying to go Portuguese or something? Someone should explain, even in Portugal that jet black hair is not obligatory?

Ministry of Justice
102 Petty France
United Kingdom

DX 152380 Westminster 8

Telephone: +44 (0)20 3334 3555
Fax: +44 (0)20 3334 4455


whilst it is without a doubt distressing time for you when on one of those fateful nights in pdl when you went out on the pish that you lost/mislaid or got rid of your lovely daughter madeleine(i may call her madeleine as you yourself said she hated being called maddie ). i have taken into account kates white finger (repetitive strain syndrome) through her intense looking for maddie online in between gala events milking the cash cow should i say.i took your advice and called that fat drunken ex portugese policeman called amaral who you stated was doing nothing but it seems that he has a case regarding yourselves coming soon to a portugese court which shocked me as i had had heard fuck all about it in the great british press .whilst i was in conversation with said policeman who i may add was not out on the piss neglecting his wife and kids nor at a masonic meeting but was at home happily playing with his children (its a portugese thing as clarence mitchell would say) he also informed me that yourselves and your cohorts eh i mean friends were too busy to attend a police reconstruction as asked ? i then thanked mr amaral and his lovely wife/mother sophia and took my leave . i therefore having not the time nor the inclination to look through the thousands of police files thats making gerry shit a hedgehog have to inform you i have my hair to do this week and every other week so good luck with the charade

theresa may xxx. or in this case theresa won,t .

Last edited by the one and only big_l on Fri 06 Aug 2010, 9:26 pm; edited 2 times in total

viv said...

I just love the signature, how distressing for poor old Gerry eh!

Theresa Won't (nee May)

Wizard said...

Morning All,

In the past cold cases are often cracked when someone who has remained quiet for a number of years suffers a twinge of conscience or a falling out and informs the police of what they know.

The Mc’s have spent months and months going through the pj files and have found nothing self-incriminating in them and know it’s safe to ask May for a judicial review. Window dressing as usual this request. The Portuguese are willing to reopen the case if new evidence is forthcoming it just depends on who cracks first and reports a credible new lead. Any lead the Mc’s offer will imo be nothing more than a red herring.

This latest stunt by the Mc’s is like déjà Moo: The feeling I’ve hear all this bull before.

Wizard said...

I was just reading about scientific findings following a series of experiments which showed human recollections are not always accurate. They say our memory wears rose-tinted glasses, remembering the good and forgetting the bad. A lot of this happening in this case methinks!

It was also revealed that 20% of people experienced ‘fictional’ memories. One subject claimed to have remembered seeing a living dinosaur…hmm...well that puts Tanner firmly into the 20%.

The findings, released last week, highlights the fallibility of memory – and explains why two people can have such different recollections of the same conversations and events. This fits the T9 explanation of their child checking system the only thing all have in common in their accounts is “It wasn’t me!”

hope4truth said...

Well lets all keep our fingers crossed and the case is reopened...

The Pj have not released all of their files and there could just be some gems in there that although not total proof that could be used in court but will show the McCanns as the liars they are...

A simple set of pictures of laughing joyful parents on their missing childs 4th Birthday are enough to convince me they thought they had got away with what ever happend but it is not proof of anything....

It will be a disaster for May to back these two as there is every chance they covered up a childs death and sent the world into a mega spin...

Maybe this time the vicitm will be put first and perhaps the HS will think it is time to do what most parents would and put a child first....

S.B. said...


Deja Moo! I like it!

viv said...

Hiya guys

I am just sitting here watching the rain bouncing off my neighbour's flat roof kitchen extension. He was up there recently waterproofing it again, I hope he made a good job!

So what happened to the summer? Oh dear!

viv said...

Hope, the bald statement from the Home Office must be very cold comfort for the McCanns. Their priority is simply Madeleine and the search for her, they do not even say whether that is a search for a dead or living child.

Also in the above report, the investigation was shelved without reaching any firm conclusions as to her fate. This is just not the message the McCanns want the world to hear really, is it?

What they want it the Home Office to agree to look again at all their fake leads, and we are told the McCanns already complained in February about their reluctance to do that. To me this is not about the government being heartless towards the fate of little Maddie, it is about the government knowing there is no point in further looking at any "evidence" the McCanns and their PIs have sought to provide. Unless and until the McCanns or the rest of the T9 decide the want to tell the truth there can be no breakthrough. And I think they all have too much guilty conduct they wish to hide to ever have any intention of telling the truth.

viv said...

The McCanns were once foolish enough to vocalise their worst fears. The case would just be shelved and they would finish up being suspects for the rest of their lives.

That is a situation they desperately try to change, but clearly neither the British or Portuguese governments are supporting them on that one. If you are guilty, but the evidence is not strong enough to convict you, then there is justice in the world knowing precisely that. There is no manipulating or bullying his way out of that one for Gerry McCann so that he can cashin in quite the way that he planned to do. For now, that is justice!

Di said...

Hi all

Viv, Great to see BigL again I miss his/her banter.

Wizard, I am still laughing at deja moo.

Hope, let's hope Teresa May is no pushover.

viv said...

Hiya Di, I have always wanted to engage with people who have a sense of humour, it is good to smile as we often do on this blog, including at lovely Big L:-)))

I do not see any signs from the above report that Theresa May will have offered any words of comfort to Kate and Gerry McCann. It is notable that Clarence says they will keep the details confidential, well we know they only do that when it suits them.

hope4truth said...

Hello Viv and Di

Big_L is a Man and cant you tell he is a Scott sometimes when he writes you can hear the accent LOL

No Viv the public is not allowed to think for a second that they may be guilty they made a huge mistake if they had just shut up no one would know their name....

The Mother who has been charged with neglect after her son died in the tumble dryer (well if it is for neglect not being funny but it would have taken him a few seconds to climb in when her back was turned it was not like she was at a bar a good 5 minute walk away) I feel despratly sorry for her and I doubt being charged with neglect makes her feel any worse than she already does.... I cant even think of her name off hand and will have forgotten all about her when the press stop reporting...

But no Kate and Gerry need money and it certainly has not been spent on what it was donated for looking for their daughter!!!!!!!!

docmac said...

She'd gone shopping, Hope. But she did leave the youngster in the care of 2 adults and a 15 year old.

But I agree. No neglect there, IMO.

S.B. said...

Evening Doc......,

Your comments here relating to the 'last photograph' prompted me to visit MissingMadeleine, something which normally I avoid as I consider the site to be tedious, difficult to follow and frequently irrelevant.

Whilst poking around MM I noticed another thread instigated by you, inviting members to expand their theories as to what 'really' happened to Madeleine Mccann. I do not pretend to understand your motive for raising the point at this particular juncture but whatever you certainly seem to have created havoc. I am guessing perhaps your reason was to encourage posters to revert back to the original purpose of all these blogs and thus curtail a vast percentage of comments that have little or no connection with the fate of Madeleine. In particular internecine wars and libellous attacks against individuals that have become predominant.

Your perspective on the fate of Madeleine Mccann I consider to be very interesting although contrary to my own opinions. I certainly do not intend to contradict your version of events as you speak with conviction which I cannot challenge.

If per chance you intention was only to incite rebellion then I have a suggestion for another thread that should keep posters amused for days indefinite. My recent interest in Brian Kennedy leads me to wonder is he is/was connected in some way with the political Kennedys of the USA! Makes sense when you think about it ~ all those American connections, Geralds widely publicized trip to the Whitehouse, guest appearance on Oprah. It could also explain why the Mccanns are being protected, maybe the mafia! This could be the start of something big.................

viv said...

Hiya Hope

Both Luke and I listened to the report about the mum of the little boy who died in the tumble dryer being charged with neglect and just shook our heads with sad disbelief.

I do not know whether this is an example of the law getting tougher on parents in response to the appalling conduct of Kate and Gerry McCann in Portugal, but if it is, IMO, it is a draconian step too far.

As a mother of three sons my heart goes out to this lady, I do not think she was negligent at all and this can only serve to cause her even more severe distress, if that were possible.

viv said...

Hiya Hope

In relation to your comment "if they (McCanns) had just shut up, no one would know their name"

From the first moments, the McCanns strategy was to seek to use the media to suit their own ends. To publicise their version of what supposedly happened to Madeleine, a stranger abducted her. I believe the publicity was also necessary to generate huge sums of cash both for them personally and for the costs of defending themselves, a cost they increasingly realised they would need to spend. Hence we heard angry comments from Gerry about how he was being forced to spend Maddie's Fund actually looking for Maddie because the police did not believe him.

Having seriously whetted the appetite of the media by the time it got to Arguido day in September 2007 we had the most extensive and lurid anti McCanns reports in our press the world could imagine. All were analysing how they may have killed Madeleine and the apparent evidence that is what they did. And so, having unleashed the tiger, the McCanns have ever since been trying to get it back into the jungle and out of their backyard.

I think Paxman summed it up perfectly to Gerry, you reaped a whirlwind!

The fundamental difference between parents and the McCanns is even guilty parents do not attempt to abuse and control the press with their own positive spin and lies, that is what they are still trying to live down and it entirely serves them right.

viv said...

Hiya SB

If you are implying that Doc knew he would create havoc on MM by inviting people to post their theories of what happened to Madeleine I would certainly have to agree with you. Both that site and 3 Arguidos are renowned for populated by posters who think they know better even than the police, in fact the police should read them to find out the truth!

And so, if you have a different opinion to the fixed mindsent, i.e. government conspiracy theories to protect the McCanns are absurd rubbish, you are guaranteed to face the lynch mob.

Like you I respect Doc's opinion and find it possible but just not terribly likely, that is no reason for any civilised person to turn on him.

But Doc, you are clearly intelligent, if you would care to let us know your reasons for provoking the hornets, that would be interesting!

hope4truth said...

Hi Doc

I did not know she was not there but if she left them in the care of 2 adults and a 15 year old why was she charged????

15 is old enough to babysit (in fact i think it is 14 and 12 if it is a sibling)....

If there is no more to it than supposed neglect then I hope the crown prosecution service boot it out and this poor lady is left to grieve for her child....

However the fact the McCanns who have sold the world story they Neglected their children along with their skanky friends night after night have been made heros by some???

I know unfit parents like Fiona Philips finds it hystericaly funny to have her childre knocking on strangers doors whilst she and her husband neglected them for a nice meal alone but they all deserve to be sent to parenting classes as they dont have a bloody clue...

viv said...

Mobbing of particular posters, creating hysteria, erm would I accuse them of such a thing? No, I would just say Rosiepops is a paedophile and so are most of his posters.

Paedophile accusation against this forum
Sat 07 Aug 2010, 1:46 pm by Antoinette

As many of you may have seen on other sites there have been accusations made that Missing Madeleine had/has a paedophile on the forum. As admin I have no idea who this person is but I will do everything in my power to find out who it is.

As there has been a mention of one member. I have removed this member as a precaution as I or the members on this forum WILL NOT be associated with ANY paedophile. I take full responsibility for my actions and this is no exception. If it turns out I am wrong about this member I will apologise on the main forum for this.

This forum is about raising awareness to missing kids and many other causes and will not be used as a haven for paedophiles to use for their own gratification.

I apologise for any distress this may cause to any member on this forum as this has sickened me to the bone never mind anyone else.

docmac said...

SB and Viv

As Viv knows I have posted the truth before (sorry, Viv). There's nothing new in it and I am genuinely interested in what others had to say on the subject.

The other reason for posting it again? If you read the very first post I made on the thread, you would get it straight away.

Go back there and check the number of 'views' on that thread. And the 'last photo' one too.

viv said...


I enjoyed the meal with my adult children on my birthday every bit as much as I enjoyed sitting down to a family meal with them when they were tiny tots.

Maybe that qualifies me as non McCann type of mom, you know, loving, normal?

viv said...

But if it were the truth, as a provable fact, the McCanns would have been charged Doc, there is no conspiracy to protect them. They are just the same as any other child abusing criminal, albeit with enough brains to plot and scheme their way out of a prosecution. Maybe, but that does not make them innocent!

docmac said...

Hi Hope

I'm neither afraid nor ashamed to post this on the internet for all to see. Fiona Philips is an unfit parent.

And Sean and Amelie's best interests have not been best served by social services. This is not "IMO", but fact.

docmac said...

There is a conspiracy, Viv.

hope4truth said...

I would say there are people out there who belive the McCanns version of events just because they do...

I have never looked at any case with blinkers on and this case is only one of the few that before even reading a lot of evidence the behaviour of the parents convinced me they lying through their teeth. But even then wondered if there had been a tragic accident and even wasted tears on Kate when she was taken in to answer the questions she just did not want to answer....

But there are a gang of posters either paid or perverted peados who have for some reason got to bully others into shutting up...

As I have said a 1000 times before if the McCanns are really innocent then Rosiepops must be their worst enemy because he convinced me along with his band of evil followers that they were guilty of far more than I thought and finaly made me think they deserve to go to jail....

viv said...

Hiya Doc

Well I agree with you on both points there.

Sean and Amelie's best interests would have been served by immediately being removed from the care of Kate and Gerry to a loving and normal home where they are not forced to live in the shadow of a sister that is no more.

I also agree there is a conspiracy to protect the McCanns, but not by government or law enforcement, there is a criminal conspiracy from those who are like minded and close to them and if they were to break that "pact of silence" the McCanns could be prosecuted for what they did with Madeleine.

S.B. said...


Provoking the hornets? Don't tempt providence ~ you know how you react to the little blighters!

docmac said...


Agreed. 1000 times over.


The pact, yes. I had a chat with Dave today, in fact...

viv said...

Doc, do you actually believe that is THE David you have been having a chat with.

What amazes me about poster's view is that they seem to be accepting that those 6 x 4s got printed out that night. That is clearly contrary to what the police think!

In fact it often amazes me the way posters will take what either the McCanns or their friends say as established facts, simply extraordinary!

viv said...

I am no technical bod, but if what Lifeisforliving says is true that the data written at the time various actions were carried out, the make of the camera etc, can just be changed, what would be the point of police forensics on media like camera and computers.

From everything I have read it is the use that criminals put to try and change data with various programmes that the police can actually pick up on and appropriate inferences drawn from the use of that software. Lifeisforliving seems a little too knowledgeable about what an expert in law evasion in relation to cameras would know, i.e. what a paedophile who wanted to avoid detection would know.

docmac said...

No, Dave is my go-between, Viv. A colleague and a very good friend. Sorry, I thought I mentioned his name to you before. I don't think he knows 'that' David.

docmac said...

Well just read my last post there them, Viv ;-)

Am awaiting a reply...

docmac said...

n, not m, lol.

hope4truth said...


Is Dave the one who told you what happend long long ago???


docmac said...

Yes, Hope. Not THAT Dave, mind.

viv said...

Just a little extract from what the investigating PJs had to say, I do not believe that any genuine person could believe the McCanns to be innocent in the disappearance of Madeleine having read this.

We must point out as well some contradictions regarding the McCann's account and some other statements that were taken.

Page 75

# The neighbour from the apartment above said that on May 1st, she noticed MADELEINE cried out for an hour and fifteen minutes (between 10.45 p.m. and midnight).

# One of the cleaning maids saw one of the siblings' cots in the couple's bedroom and the other in the children's bedroom, which contradicts the arguidos' (formal suspects) version, who assured that the cots were always in the children's bedroom.

# The before mentioned maid alleged that, when she was cleaning, the shutters were open, since she noticed the light was entering. This was also denied by the McCANN couple, who assured that they closed the shutters of MADELEINE's bedroom since the first day and that's how they kept them.


The group of friends, duly identified and already interviewed, of the missing child's parents was made up of :

1. DAVID ANTHONY PAYNE, living in XX KnXXXXXX CHXXXX Rd, Leicester LEX 3XX-UK, with the phone number 0044XXXXXXXXXX.
2. FIONA ELAINE PAYNE, living at same address, with phone number 0044XXXXXXXXXX

Page 76

3. DIANNE WEBSTER, living in XX, WiXXXX Rd, BeXXXXX,UK with the phone number 0044XXXXXXXXXXX
4. RUSSELL JAMES O'BRIEN, living in XX SaXXXX PoXX Laxx, ExXXXX, EXX 4XX-UK, with the phone number 0044XXXXXXXXXXX
5. JANE MICHELLE TANNER, living at same address, with the phone number 0044XXXXXXXXXXX
6. MATTHEW DAVID OLDFIELD, living in XX SuXXXXXXXX GaXXXXX, EAXX ShXXX, London, SWXX 8XX,UK, with the phone number 0044XXXXXXXXXXX and
7. RACHAEL MARIAMMA (??) JEAN MANPHILLY, living at same address, with the phone number 0044XXXXXXXXXXX


- The undertaken investigations also allowed to determine that on the night of the events the formal suspects GERALD MCCANN and KATE HEALY, as well as the remaining group of friends, maintained telephone contacts, sometimes insistently, either via sms, or by voice, with the following phone numbers :

docmac said...

Speaking of opening and shutting, Viv - did you read this?

KM: "I took my check about 10 o’clock, and went in through the, sliding patio doors, and I just stood actually, and I thought Oh, all quiet… and to be honest I might of, been tempted to turn around, then but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door, where the 3 children were sleeping, was open much further than we had left it, I went to close it to about here…"

The “we had left it”, can only mean herself and Gerry, before going to dinner. There is no other "we" involving her. That was the last time she was in the apartment before her return to realize that her daughter had been abducted.

According to McCanns & Friends, there were 2 visits where movement of the referred door had to happen: the one at 09.15, by Gerry, who, by the way sees the door open and doesn’t find anything strange about that, and goes to the toilet; and the one at 9.35 by Matt Oldfield who sees only the twins.

Both had to physically open the door from the “we had left it” position, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to see inside.

So, for Kate to find it strange that the door was not as “we had left it” and that fact, all by its own, made her suspicious that something was wrong, means ONLY one thing: to her, there was no visit to the apartment
between the time she left it, for dinner, and when she returned, to find Maddie gone.

viv said...

Hiya Doc

That is the major problem for the McCanns, it would seem they invented the Mat Oldfield check at 9.30.

If they only checked upon her hourly and she had been crying incessantly the night before for over an hour, then sadly, someone could have noted that and she could have been abducted.

But aside from the fact there is no evidence of any abductor entering the place, they have clearly put themselves before the safety of their little girl.

AT least, they have lied from day one by pretending that checks were done every 3o minutes. As Mr Menezes pointed out in February the PJs know that is just a lie.

What kind of couple not only leave tiny tots for at least an hour at a time without a babysitter but lie to the police about it also to keep themselves out of where they most definitely belong, inside a jail cell.

Whatever their involvement I am never going to have any sympathy for these two vile creatures, that much is for sure.

docmac said...

They invented all of the checks, Viv. No sympathy from me either.

viv said...

* crying incessantly for over an hour two nights before according to a very credible witness, Pamela Fenn who has no reason to lie about it.

Of course the McCanns tell us it was the previous night, why I am not sure other than temporally it would better link a stranger abduction. That still does not explain how an abductor silently got Madeleine out of there. A nervous and frightened little girl who slept very poorly, hardly likely to sleep through being dragged through the window or whatever!

viv said...

Doc, I do not believe Gerry was doing a "check" at 9 pm, I believe he was just leaving the flat. Neither do I believe Kate ever checked on her children, she did so that night for just one reason, to raise the so called alarm and stage a stranger abduction.

viv said...

In the report the PJs also correctly state that the timeframe in which Maddie disappeared is between 5.35 and 10.05 on the evening of 3 May. They refer to the so called sighting of Maddie alive in the apt at 7 pm that night. Ultimately he admitted to Brit cops he did not see Maddie at that time at all, so why did he lie.

I would say to cover the fact that Maddie was already gotten rid of before the McCanns left their apartment that night.

docmac said...

Neither do I believe Kate ever checked on her children, she did so that night for just one reason, to raise the so called alarm and stage a stranger abduction.

Agreed. She was too 'gesuip' (refer to previous post). She was 'gesuip' on the 3rd too. Hence the 'lucicrous' alarm. How 'unhelpful' an alcoholic can be...

viv said...

and why would David Payne tell such a serious lie and become involved in such a serious criminal conspiracy to conceal from the police what happened to Maddie and precisely when?

I believe Dr Gaspar provides us with the answer.

viv said...

Hiya Doc

In your experience, what is it in the life of a woman like Kate McCann that makes her dependant upon substance abuse, such as alcohol or cocaine/both?

docmac said...

Geez, talk about a curve ball, Viv.

I believe Kate was an addict before she met Gerry, tbh.

viv said...

Would your belief be just upon the basis of her conduct at Uni, hard partying, hard drinking Kate?

Could that have been a reaction to freedom from her mother?

When she met Gerry did she find someone else to apply the control she had become accustomed to and lacks the wherewithall to repel?

Why is it that witnesses like Kate but are not fond of Gerry? Could that be his personality, which we have so graphically seen in full swing on so many occasions, ripping mikes off and rippinng into dimunative little female reporters, "shut up and listen to me"!.,

I struggle with why you only paint Kate black !

viv said...

Come to think of it, where did these reports about hot lips Healy at Uni originate from? It would not have been her own husband by any chance would it? J/w given we know he is such an expert in seeking to manipulate public perception with his little plants int he media

hope4truth said...


The line about the door not being as we left it clearly shows up another of the many lies they have told....

When people lie they often use too many words and explanations and if Maddie could get out of bed maybe to go to the toilet who is to say she did not leave the door open?

Perhaps the police should ask Kate why Maddie could not just have wandered off or what made her so sure she was not able to open that door????

We are told Maddie was a genius yet she was not able to get up out of bed by herself I have yet to meet a 3 year old who cant do that in fact it is what children do best when you have just settled down with a meal and a good film....

Kate may well be a coke head and if she is I dont think she ever stopped taking it after all to go through detox would have been brutal in front of all those TV cameras and who would blame a grieving Mother for trying to lesssen the pain a little if she ever was tested in the future....

The Panorama interview she looks and sounds pissed so blasae about how the bastard who took her child must have been watching them and then the clicking of her tounge and a wave of her hand you could almost believe she was talking about a lost handbag....

I have always wondered if Gerry was trying to set Kate up by making sure we all knew about her terrible fits of rage but maybe it was a warning to her that he would speak out if she did not behave herself???

Who knows I could be wrong about everything but I am not wrong about how important it is to help an investigation if your child is missing and they have stil yet to help in anyway that does not include their version of events///

Wizard said...

Hi Hope,

In one of your posts yesterday you say “ We are told Maddie was a genius ………” As I mentioned in an earlier post human recollections are not always accurate. They say our memory wears rose-tinted glasses, remembering the good and forgetting the bad.

In the Mcs et al rose tinted descriptions of Madeleine they forget to mention how difficult Kate thought she was, how difficult Kate had controlling her, so difficult Gerry tells us when he was away from home Kate was never left alone with the 3 children. Still keeping the rose tinted spectacles firmly in place they never mention Kate was witnessed hitting Madeleine whilst on holiday in an attempt to control her. Madeleine had such a lively and wonderful personality the Mcs say but the nursery found her quiet and withdrawn.

I often wonder if you mix a somewhat hedonistic holiday life style with your children as an after thought - what do you get? Imo a disaster.

Wizard said...

In my above post I mention what Kate did or did not do, Gerry doesn’t comment at all on whether Madeleine’s difficult behaviour only applied to when she was with her mother or when he was with her as well. Perhaps it hard to be nostalgic when you can’t remember anything either because you were not there or the juice.

Sometimes the answers lay in what people do not say rather than what they do say. Hmm....

Wizard said...

LOL - should read on the juice!

hope4truth said...

Morning Wiz on the juice is a big problem....

I have been reading back on various forums and on some of the stuff I have saved and wonder if my opinion has been harsh towards Gerry....

I know on the bus he was a rude and grumpy git even swearing in front of the children (and I would love to know who leaked that to the media) but maybe it was his sense of humour and the others get it as they know him.....?

When the footage of Gerry with the twins and Maddie on the stairs went out I said he only released it to make himself look good.... No one else was around while he was filming to show off in front of it was just him and his children. Maddie did not seem to have a problem with him and interacted with what he asked her...

Then we go to the crying and shouting for Daddy I wondered if Daddy was hurting her but it is more likely she wanted him or she would have been shouting Stop It?????

Gerry likes to be Mr Important and has his own temper issues but is he dominated by Kate who likes to play the victim?

Has he got his own secrets he needs to kept buried or does he simply adore Kate and would do anything he could to protect her....

For a Mother to refuse to answer a single question when her child is believed to be held by peadophiles is simply sick yet she sat for hours smugly refusing...

If Docs contact is right about what happend to Maddie she is a very dangerous woman who needs help and Gerry although he should put his kids first is to weak to do so....

Wizard said...

What I find suspect is Kate never checked on the children before except on the night of the alleged abduction. Just coincidence or by design?

On the night of 1st May Madeleine was heard crying for an hour and a half by the lady in the apartment above. On the night of 2nd May not a peep was apparently heard from the McCann children. Fiona Payne in the next apartment confirms this when she says she was in her apartment all evening and heard nothing. Yet we are told by Kate on the morning of 3rd May Madeleine asks her why she did not come when both her and her brother were crying the night before. Someone is lying here but who?

Re my previous posts today narcissists of course would not have an ordinary child - that would be impossible.

hope4truth said...

Hi Wiz

Of coure you are correct a Narcissist would never have an ordianary child...

Maddie was lovely I would have been very proud to be her Mum she was beautiful... Her little sister though really was cute and blonde (Maddies hair has never looked really blonde but she was described as being blonde)...

If she was a little awkward and not as beautiful as she was expected to be perhaps Kate did not like it....

Wizard said...

Hi Hope,

I do not have daughters only sons. I think their great despite their faults but if I was trying to help the police find them I would try to give them an accurate photograph of the way they looked and a fair description of their personalities. It’s no good giving the police the most flattering picture I could find or describing a personality that just isn’t so. These are the sort of things that make me think the Mc’s knew exactly what’s happened to M and knew it was pointless and didn’t matter whether they were accurate or not.

Wizard said...

Is everyone connected in some way or the other to the McCanns a crook? It’s being reported today:-

The saga of the MP accused of making false council tax claims took another bizarre twist last night as an adviser to Kate and Gerry McCann was dragged into the affair.

David Hughes, who was media adviser to the McCanns in the months after their daughter Madeleine disappeared, admitted staying with Liberal Democrat Tessa Munt while she claimed a single resident’s discount.

Mrs Munt, 50, has already been threatened with police action after it was discovered that BBC radio presenter Andy Kershaw and a local GP were recorded as living at her home while she was receiving the rebate.

Hmm… not so much a case of ménage á trios but ménage á quatre! lol

Wizard said...

Just been reading on JM an article ‘Nobody wants to live in Houses Stained by Crime’ and the case of unsold apartment 5A in pdl.

“The property belonging to an Englishwoman [Ruth Margaret McCann], was put on sale in 2008 for 200 thousand Euros, so far only curiously [morbid] people have shown an interest to see the flat. Tours from the North of the country even include the place in their itinerary programs.

Apartment 5 A at the Ocean Club resort, in Praia Luz, Lagos, where the 3-year-old English girl Madeleine McCann mysteriously disappeared whilst on vacation with her parents and twin siblings, also minors, on the night of May 3, 2007; remains closed and for sale since August 2008 for 200 thousand euros; even though the notice board with that information was removed. The world-wide media coverage surrounding the case does not “diminish nor increase” the property value of the T2 ground-floor apartment [T2 is a real estate jargon typification, meaning a 2 bedroom apartment], situated at about 200 meters from the beach, said the real estate investors to the DN.

docmac said...


I have spent countless hours on Gerry. Not singling Kate out at all.


If my daughter had been abducted from that apartment, not only would I buy it for full asking price, I would go and live in it. And continue searching in my free time. Forever.

Wizard said...

Hi again,

Re David Hughes. I didn’t realise David Hughes was the over-weight man we saw walking by KM’s side as she went into the Portuguese police station for questioning in 2007. Hmm…..I thought they said originally he was a family friend.

Explanations dreamed up in haste have a habit of biting back! He's the fella, bye the way, that had more chins than a Chinese phone directory. lol

S.B. said...

Good weekend?

It all started with a chicken, or rather a relic dug up from the Jurassic era. Just another lazy Saturday morning when Murphy’s Law takes over ones entire weekend irrespective of whether or not you ask for his help. The fridge is empty, the freezer is empty and the vegetable rack is rotten so what’s left to do? ~ Yes, a trip to see Mr Larbi Lobster, life saver (not for the sea bass) but of course I forget it is mid-summer and native tourist from here and abroad take to the streets and beach and Mr Lobsters for their weekend recreation. I managed to negotiate a passage from parking entrance to 'place de poison friture' to find my little mate the grubby urchin, this time having a somewhat hands-on altercation with an old crone. It all happens in a typical tourist destination but not quite my taste in entertainment, still there is always bread (debatable) and cheese to fall back on. No worries about nightmares because first you have to sleep.

About 22.00 H. a full blown churguii came from nowhere. Within seconds half the contents of the landfill sights in the Northern hemisphere was flying past, the mercury shot up to 40 C and some clown left windows open in the next door empty apartment so from then until the wind dropped about 8.00 H a blooming internal door was crashing about every few seconds! Kate, now I know how you feel but it is extraordinary that you forgot to mention the wind without as well as within! Or was that one of the minor details you thought up, I mean forgot to remember? This, added to the normal Saturday night summertime nocturnal revelry, ended any hope for sleep and I do not react kindly to sleep deprivation, do you feel the same way Kate?

Today’s prospects are no better. In less than one week we have the start of the sacred month, followed by kids return to school in September so everything else goes out of the window. Sorry Kate, it's that wretched window again! Oh, and of course the shutters ~ how they rattle!

And the heat goes on............

S.B. said...


I have checked out your initial post on MM and now understand your motive for generating discussion at this stage. Yes, you have incited a tremendous response but already I can see that postings are veering towards the irrelevant and more bizarre conspiracy beliefs are being expostulated. Of course nothing that you can't handle in your very own inimitable style!

It is not my intention to exasperate you so I ask that you be patient with me as I am a comparative newcomer to this blog and do not therefore possess detailed knowledge of what has been said in the past. I note this is not the first time you have commented on Madeleines fate here and elsewhere but short of your throwing out a small morsel for my edification I remain in the dark as to detail.

Something about this revelation perplexes me. If factual information is in a particular persons possession and possibly known to you Doc, why is it that 3 years on we are no further forward towards a favourable conviction? Is not the keeper of knowledge a material witness? Unless of course your informant is part of the official police investigation............

docmac said...


If you want my Email address, just ask Viv...

viv said...

Hiya guys, some fascinating posts. It is interesting to look at the other side of the coin. Sometimes I suppose it pays for us to remember these two are in it together.

I have to say that on the Jane Hill first interview Kate appears quite unbalanced to me. Jane conducts a very clever interview, at one point asking Kate and is there no way Maddie could have just got up and wandered out, Kate just shakes her head, no, no way. She does not further clarify that or comment and it is such an obvious lie.

I have always thought that Kate and Gerry are both heavy substance users and that lifestyle did not mix with quite suddenly having a pretty large brood of children to care for.

There is an old picture of Kate and Gerry, boozy red faces and a table of drinks.

There are pictures of both Gerry and Kate when IMO they most certainly appear to be on cocaine. Gerry when he is just shaking with hilarity, caught through the window by a clever cameraman, there is a further picture of Gerry with classic dilated pupils and Kate when describing Maddie just going whoosh in August, whilst being filmed by Jon Corner.

In someone who already has personality disorder or mental health problems or just a plain violent streak a mixture of alcohol and cocaine, which such people often particularly seek out as their substances of choice can produce the most critical results. Some of the most sadistic and meaningless acts of violence are committed by such people on that cocktail.

Maybe the key is to remember this is a particularly disordered couple, neither of whom want to tell the truth about anything really.

In relation to Madeleine's personality, he says, she may look like Kate (which I certainly think she does/did) but he says, she is pure McCann clearly implying she has an extroverted and outgoing personality. But the nannies describe a timid and quiet little girl, crying when being taken out on the fun little boats, I don't like it. That always haunts me somehow. Why is Gerry wanting to tell us she is brave and outgoing? Abused children are often just the opposite.

I do think Amelie was probably more of the perfect little blond this couple "required". No hair tints or makeup..

To say that the McCanns are a bizarre couple, even a lethal combination so far as childcare is concerned would not be exaggerating the point IMO.

viv said...

Kate too tries to suggest Maddie is brave and outgoing with a further comment that she made that a woman who is quite a normal mom just would not have said.

Referring to Maddie possibly being with paedophiles, "she will be giving them her tuppence worth".

Is there a degree of resentment in that remark towards a child she was just not able to handle from the get go, "she cried 18 hours a day and shrieked when I was breastfeeding the twins"!

viv said...


I am also fascinated to learn that David Hughes, the family friend, was actually acting as yet another "media adviser" and he clearly mixes in circles where the law is not entirely respected, certainly in relation to financial matters.

As you say, more and more unsavourary links are crawling out of the woodwork regarding the social circle of Kate and Gerry McCann/

The picture at the football of Mitchell, Gerry, Kennedy and another really sticks in my mind.

Sport and lots of money, there is clearly some sort of a link there!

Everton..clearly a vehicle that Gerry saw as a huge and immediate fund raiser. Hence the picture he was immediately able to produce to the GNR of Maddie in her Everton kit, he knew that one would get the desired result!

viv said...

Doc, as you say, for the asking price of the apt, in relation to the value of the multi million pound fund, it could easily have been purchased as a base to conduct a proper search for Madeleine and quite clearly that is where normal parents would want to be whenever they could.

And yet, since Kate got accused in the disappearance of Madeleine she has not once wanted to set foot in the place since. Gerry does not have an issue with it, but there again, Gerry is a very different character to Kate, a natural risk taker I would say.

viv said...


"During 2007 he acted as both a media spokesman and public affairs adviser to the ‘Find Madeleine McCann campaign’, and helped a major multinational company achieve the release of senior executives falsely imprisoned in West Africa."

I like the way they point out, all in one sentence the rather large Mr David Hughes whom we thought was just a "family friend", was also helping that really nice Dutch firm, Trafigura. Same PR man, same lawyers, hummmm..

Of course at that time, they were also employing Justice McGuiness. Money being wisely spent "Leaving no Stone Unturned in the search for Maddie McCann", well I do not think so!

docmac said...


If you can stand to watch the fakers again, and want to see what a sad little girl Maddie really was, go here.

viv said...

hiya Doc

I have watched all of the videos many times over. For me the worst one of Madeleine is in the Snowwhite outfit, she looks nervous and afraid of the person who is taking the video of her.

The more recent pic of her posed with makeup on is equally horrific, not a pic of a little girl laughing playing makeup at all.

My position remains that the police were and are totally correct to identify Kate and Gerry as the principal suspects in her disappearance and to systematically investigate just what they did with her.

No normal couple of doctors admit to leaving tots in this situation night after night with the doors open or worse still going out again when they knew she cried pitifully. Neither would a mother baldly insist that in those circumstances there was no way Maddie just got up and walked out. For me that says loud and clear they are and were involved in her disappearance, but clear cut conclusions as to what took place are unwise IMO. I believe the PJ were efficient and certainly could not make the assumptions you advocate.

Di said...

Hi S.B

That was some weekend!

Your chicken sounds like the anorexic turkey I served up one Christmas much to everyone's amusement, except my own.

Hi Doc

Why do you think Madeleine's medical files were held back?

Di said...

Hi Viv

It would be interesting to know why Kate was so sure Madeleine did not wake and wander, especially as she told the rest of the tapas that was the very reason the door was left unlocked, so that Madeleine could find them.

I am reading a very interesting book at the moment which talks about how the police, in interviews, interpret truth from lies.

A very simple question is asked for example, "what did you have for breakfast" the way the eyes move, let's say to the left is the memory side of the brain the truthful side. So when a question is asked and the person lies the eyes will go to the right, the creative side of the brain.

It would be interesting to look back at interviews of the McCanns and work out which side of their brain is the memory side.

S.B. said...

Hello Di!

The teradactyl went the way of all fleshless ~ in the dustbin! Anorexic turkey? Now there's a novelty, are you sure is wasn't a obese sparrow?

Yes, Madeleines medical records! Could it be that Kate Mccann was Madeleines GP?!?

viv said...

hiya Di, I think we did look at that previously on the blog and noted that Kate seemed to spend a lot of time looking deep left I think it was when believed to be telling lies about the disappearance of Madeleine. Avoiding eye contact is a cause for concern in itself!


There is a statement from the McCanns GP on the files, copy below, perhaps predictably given his fellow professionals the benefit of the doubt. Quite how he could offer such an opinion though really when they never really consulted him prior to events is an odd one!

I find it very strange that the twins never needed to see a doctor in their 26 months of life. I suppose it is unsurprising that Maddie is not mentioned knowing how the child victitm of an investigation is treated by UK police GPs are absolutely forbidden from treating their own family but of course you would expect them to know how to administer the calpol and feel they did not need to see a doctor to tell them to do that!

viv said...

Testimony from Ian Richard Schofield 14 May 2008
3—Witness statement of Ian Richard Schofield (Dr. at Alpine Practice) 2008.05.14
Testimony of: Ian Richard SCHOFIELD
Age is less than 18 years:
Occupation: Physician (General Practice)
This deposition (comprising 1 page and signed by me) is true and according to my understanding. I am aware that, if proven to the contrary, I will be subject to prosecution if I have voluntarily testified to something with
knowledge of it being false or not corresponding to the truth.
Date: May 14, 2008
Signature ______________________________________

I am a GP and senior partner in Alpine Practice in Rothley Road, Mountsorrel and in summary my qualifications are respectively at MBChB, DRCOG, MRCGP.
I am currently, and have been for 14 months, the GP of the McCann family. Before Madeleine's disappearance, I had only consulted Kate McCann once and never had assisted Gerry, nor ever had reason to deal with the twins Sean and Amelie and only saw them once after the disappearance of Madeleine.

viv said...

As Kate and Gerry are general practitioners I never had any doubt about their capacity or mental abilities as individuals or as parents to their three children.
I never prescribed Kate or Gerry any medication that could alter their behaviour or demeanour.
I never had any doubt about the psychological welfare of the children.
The only thing I can affirm is that Kate and Gerry are a very genuine couple, affectionate and careful [caring] parents. They always kept me, social services and other authorities informed on the progress of the investigation that followed the disappearance of Madeleine.
After the disappearance of Madeleine, I met Kate and Gerry at their home and never had any cause for concern about the twins.
This testimony was prepared from a series of questions raised by DC Ferguson and DC Holliday of the Leicestershire police, following the request by the Portuguese PJ.
This testimony was made by me and it is true according to my understanding.

S.B. said...

Viv / Di.....,

This particular assertion made by Doctor Kate, one of many I should say, in itself just beggars belief. What mother in her right mind would admit to leaving a door open to enable her 3 year old child to wander about in the dark, facing all kinds of dangerous obstacles, to look for mummy and daddy. How would she know where to look? The very fact that they are not there would be enough to frighten a child and yet Kate brazenly tells the world that it is acceptable to leave not one little child but three, all alone at night, leaving a door unlocked in case one of them, or all three, needs to search for their parents. I don't think I have ever heard such an insensitive, irresponsible, unbelievably ridiculous statement in my entire life!

As for saying that Madeleine would not wander off (as you say Di, a contradiction in itself) ~ how the bloody hell can she make such a supposition as that is totally beyond me! But then these two clowns are beyond belief! I try hard not to pollute Viv's blog with expletives but this couple drive me to distraction!

Excuse any mistakes ~ my 'funky' keyboard is refusing to co-operate!

viv said...

Hiya SB

I am afraid Kate just does tell lies, clear and obvious lies, another example being her statement in Panorama about the apparent criminals "breaking in" to the apartment.

Now how do you break into an apartment that the occupiers of say they left both doors open to?

This is a case where the culprits are patently obvious but the evidence of precisely what they did is not!

Further GP statement below

viv said...

1 to 3—Witness Statement of Ph Hu ( 2008.05.15

Testimony from Ph.HU
Age if less than 18 years:
This deposition (comprising _ pages and signed by me) is true and according to my understanding. I am aware that, if proven to the contrary, I will be subject to prosecution if I have voluntarily testified to something with
knowledge of it being false or not corresponding to the truth.
Date: May 15, 2008
Signature __________________________________

I am the abovementioned person living at the address previously supplied to police.
I am a GP at the Center for Health at Syston and my qualifications are as follows: MB, CHB, MRCGP.
I have practised my profession at this location for 22 years.
I was visited by police officers from Leicestershire who are conducting an investigation by order of the Portuguese authorities regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in May 2007.
When the McCann family lived in Queniborough, Leicestershire they were included in my consultancy; Kate, Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie were all my clients.
Kate's first consultation was on 20 October 2000, and Gerry on 19 December 2000, Madeleine was included since birth.
There was a period in which the family did not use our services, which coincided with the change of residence to the Netherlands where he spent a season, but upon their return resumed their affiliation with us.
When the twins Sean and Amelie were born, both were registered in my clinic.
It could be said that I know Kate well, the couple faced some problems of conception and I recall that Kate was particularly desperate for a family. After treatment for infertility and when pregnant with Madeleine she could not be more happy because she wanted that child so much.

I met Kate and Gerry once at a social event at the home of Professor Gershlick who is a colleague of Gerry. I remember sitting close to Kate during the dinner. We spoke about the difficulties of medicine in general and of the problems within the National Health Service. I got on well with both of them.
I never had any doubts about the state of mental health of Kate and Gerry and I never prescribed them sedatives or any medication that could alter the psychological state of Kate or Gerry.
Also, I never had doubts regarding the physical or psychological well-being of the children. Madeleine was seen by the duty doctor when born and by our nurses during the routine vaccinations. If there had been cause for concern in any of the children, it would have been brought to my attention, and this did not happen.
The last time I saw Kate as a patient was on March 10, 2006.
Knowing how much the couple wanted a family, I do not believe that they would have had any kind of involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine.
This testimony was made by me and it is true according to my understanding.

viv said...

Lol SB, I have an incredibly funky keyboard too!

I like to leave the odd typos, it gives Psychopops something to lick his lips at as he mutters that woman does not have a law degree she is a bloody liar lol!

viv said...

It would be nice to confront either of these GPs with some of the televised comments of both Kate and Gerry McCann and just ask them again, "concerned and loving parents"???

Wizard said...

Hi Viv.

The memory, short and long term is on the right side of our brain. With the visual cortex adjacent and continuing across the lower back of the brain. Above memory is smell, facial movement and speech. As you point out the creative part of the brain is positioned in the opposite cerebral hemisphere to that of memory.

The author of the book you are reading suggests that the eyes involuntarily follow the neurons’ path from the memory (truth) to creative parts of the brain before an answer is given. This is interesting the problem here is if you ask a question which is unexpected and the person doesn’t want to tell the truth the eyes might move as suggested but if the question is expected an answer would have been rehearsed and in the memory section of the brain so no creativity is required and no eye movement would occur although a lie was being told. This means you could lie through your teeth but not move your eyes because a lie was already manufactured and in the short-term memory.

I would think the Mcs have their version of events so ingrained in their memory by now no eye movement to the creative part of the cortex would occur. It’s a pity this method couldn’t have been tried on the 4th May before they had a chance to create a scenario.

Wizard said...

Hi Di,

Your post earlier:-

“It would be interesting to know why Kate was so sure Madeleine did not wake and wander, especially as she told the rest of the tapas that was the very reason the door was left unlocked, so that Madeleine could find them.”

I always think ideas dreamed up in haste have a habit of biting back.

Staging imo is happening here when KM & GM tells anyone who cares to listen they leave their children home alone at night and leave all the doors open.

KM again imo sticks to the hastily dreamed up story of a stranger abductor by refusing to accept her daughter could have got up and wandered off. I think at this point she is sticking to a script. The biting back part of the scenario is if KM is so sure she did not get up and wander off she must know that she was drugged or dead already. Something not taken into account when the scenario was first dreamed up perhaps?

S.B. said...

Evening Viv.....,

Oh, that testimony from Richard Schofield in May 2008 ~ is that bias or is that fabrication! As you rightly say Viv, it is impossible to imagine that the twins did not require medical attention during those months, definately a touch of nepotism if ever there was!

I know that GPs are 'absolutely forbidden' from treating their own family but that does not necessarily mean that it doesn't happen in isolated cases. Of course we don't expect medical details appertaining to children to be released into the public domain, contrary to what seems to be popular belief, however this testimony does appear to be rather tenuous. In my opinion a GPs deposition should be restricted to a professional evaluation of the individual/s in question, not a character reference which only implies a personal rather than professional connection.

I can't remember if I have mentioned it here before but the circumstances surrounding the Mccanns temporary residence in the Netherlands, coupled with Kates first difficult pregnancy and subsequent IVF treatment partly undergone in Amsterdam, is questionable to say the least. Perhaps not in itself but taking into consideration all the circumstances surrounding this strange twosome it is difficult not to become suspicious and thus doubt their every word and deed.

docmac said...

Hi Di

Your guess is as good as mine :-) But I don't think it's the GP records we're after here ;-)


The second GP's statement as posted above is more than a little disconcerting to me. Offering up information of Kate's fertility troubles and 'happiness' when she fell pregnant with Maddie seems a little contrived to me. Especially coming from someone who 'knows Kate well'. That is very sensitive information. Could he have been 'authorised' to release that version of events?

hope4truth said...

I bloody give up at just how stupid so called Doctors can be....

"The only thing I can affirm is that Kate and Gerry are a very genuine couple, affectionate and careful [caring] parents. They always kept me, social services and other authorities informed on the progress of the investigation that followed the disappearance of Madeleine.
After the disappearance of Madeleine, I met Kate and Gerry at their home and never had any cause for concern about the twins."

FFS the McCanns have proudly told the world that they buggered off to a pub every night of their holiday and had been less than cooprative with the PJ...

Does this idiot Dr belive they would show their true colours in front of him?

It is no wonder that Baby P was sent home to die if a Dr can be smarmed by the parents and just take their word that all is well....

What did the fool expect when he got to the house to find the children neglected and hungry with bruises all over them...

They may get away with screwing the twins up with stories of monsters who stole their sister but they cant dare to so much as raise their voice in front of people now they have a roll to play to ensure they get away with whatever it was they did to their eldest child....

I think I give up....

viv said...

Hiya Wiz and thanks for that further insight. It does make sense that the more you rehearse something the more it becomes a reality for you, hence the saying, "he has said it that many times, he even believes his own lies". I am sure it is not that people actually believe their own lies, it is just that as you explain with practice, it is not a creation, it is there in stored memory in the brain.

I can certainly recognise stock phrases the McCanns used which were clearly well rehearsed. "As Gerry said for the first 48 hours we were almost non functioning". When under extreme pressure from Jane Hill to explain why they did not search that was one of the excuses she resorted to.

Both of them have repeatedly used the phrase of how they wish they could "return home a family of five". I think the problem is they do not for one minute have any insight into the impact their well rehearsed remarks have upon the general public. If they are reading I can tell them my own.

I adored being on holiday with my children, them having fun made me happy. I recognise that when you are not in your own home with your children there are additional unthought of dangers and for that reason you are even more vigilant with your children. There is no way I could possibly conceive of ever coming home minus one of my children, it is just quite impossible if you are loving and caring towards them. Even when my children were older I sat and watched them, Luke getting into trouble in the sea with his little boat, flying down the beach and getting him out, that is what parents do.

viv said...

Hiya Doc

I am rather amazed at the simple logic this GP is applying here.

Being desperate for a baby clearly does not mean you are going to make a fantastic mom who will cope with that particular baby.

I think it was easy for Kate to imagine that even at her pretty advanced age, having children would just be a nice thing to do like all her mates, I can even bet she dreamed of some pretty little blond as an extension of what she sees herself to be (but she is clearly not a blond)

If you are married to a bullying thug, having a baby is not going to suddenly transform him into some angelic superbeing is it?

viv said...

In other respects, the second GP statement mirrors for me what I have noted in so many other witness statements about the McCanns.

I know Kate so well, I like her, she was desperate for a baby, she was attending for treatment, I sat talking to her, she is nice.

Each and every time there is one thing that stands out in these statements, witnesses do not want to give a real opinion about Gerry McCann. I feel that to any pleasant and well educated person, socially he is going to come across as brash and uncouth. That is what Jez Wilkins wife was describing in the Guardian, but putting it in a pleasant way. Nevertheless, she was saying Kate is the nice one who patiently listens to him bragging about his tennis stroke etc. She also referred to him being heard above everyone else.

viv said...

The quote below is actually pretty scary stuff when you look at it, what he is actually saying is HE NEVER ONCE SET EYES ON MADELEINE!

The only time she was actually seen by a doctor was at birth and that would hardly flag up child abuse would it!

If there is one thing that abusive parents are good at, it is failing to take their children to the doctors, these statements actually do reveal that neither the twins or Madeleine were ever seen by the doctors. Notably, the twins only AFTER Madeleine had gone missing, presumably for some contrived attempt to show how caring they apparently are. I do not believe that three children could have gone through their early years without for example needing antibiotics at some point, do you?

Madeleine was seen by the duty doctor when born and by our nurses during the routine vaccinations

docmac said...

Jez Wilkins is a very diplomatic and decent man.

docmac said...

Well spotted, Viv!

viv said...

So who was providing the medication such as antibiotics that the McCanns must have needed for their children at some time, but are not allowed to prescribe for them, Brother John?

I take the twins being medicated that night as a proven fact. There is a lot of witness evidence to confirm it, and the evidence is in fact so strong that Gerry acknowledges himself, bizarrely going on to suggest the predator done it...yes we know Gerry.

docmac said...

So you meant to say the 'sedication', Viv?

Wizard said...

The headlines today tell us Sion Jenkins has been refused compensation for the six years he spent in jail accused of murdering his foster daughter. The rules for compensation state that applicants for miscarriage of justice compensation must show they are ‘clearly innocent’ for a payout which former Head Master Jenkins failed to do.

After being found guilty he appealed and in the two further trials that occurred the jury were unable to come to a conclusion. Mr Jenkins was then acquitted.

This case is interesting and relevant imo to the MBM case. Jenkins was a professional man and the charges ruined his career. Most people would have been satisfied with the acquittal and consider themselves lucky to be walking around free but Jenkins seeks to prove his innocence beyond doubt by asking for compensation.

After he was originally convicted his wife divorced him and moved with his four daughters to Tasmania. (Well she couldn't get further away for him.) Days after his acquittal she revealed how he had beaten her and their children. In her diary she alleged that he had a history of domestic violence, violent mood swings and a fascination for corporal punishment.

It’s a pity the ‘clearly innocent’ yardstick is not applied to the main players in the MBM case. It is wrong imo that those who dare to contradict them are punished through libel laws for stating what in some cases is likely to be the truth.

Every libel case the Mc’s win they no doubt think makes them appear more innocent of any wrong doing and gives them back credibility

Mr Jenkins alleges it was a unknown stranger that murdered his foster daughter. "It wasn't me" again syndrome.

Wizard said...

Viv & Doc Mac,

Viv's 02.45 post

I always thought GP’s walked around with a small supply of antibiotics, sedatives etc in their bag and would have no difficulty replenishing them. Am I right though?

viv said...

Wiz thanks for the interesting comparison with the Sion Jenkins case.

I thought of one more characteristic about that man that is typical. He lied on his CV claiming he had head qualifications to boost his financial position and to put him in a position of power which would clearly be important to him. When you dig deep these characters are almost always motivated by money and are dishonest in relation to their attributes and financial matters. They will perpetrate complex scams to get a lot of money because money equals power to these people. He finished up marrying a very wealthy lady and I have no doubt she has found out what domestic violence and having her money plundered is all about.

Was it honest of Gerry to believe he could pay defence costs, mortgage costs and a brand new car from the Find Maddie Fund, most people would not really think so. Have the McCanns ever personlly incurred any financial loss? Not that I can see, that is hardly normal either, is it? Most people in that situation just sell up and devote their life to finding their child, not expect the rest of the world to pay them to do so.

Control freaks are obviously going to like the libel laws to deal with anyone who has the audacious nerve to see right through them, something that is guaranteed to make them exceedingly angry.

Kate should have stayed hidden in New Zealand or Canada. She could hardly have gone further away from Gerry.

Yes, a very good comparison with Gerry McCann.

viv said...


It is the ultimate form of being a control freak to, as you say, not be satisfied with being free and walking around. Oh no, such characters must get the courts to actually declare they are "innocent", they must be paid for this affront.

In Gerry's case it is not just the courts in both UK and Portugal that he seeks to use to enforce his apparent innocence on the public. It is the governments. I have always felt that this is the serious problem with Gerry, he just cannot escape the simply logic in his own particular brand of rigid thinking. If there is no evidence of precisely what they did with Madeleine then they MUST be declared officially innocent and god help anyone who says otherwise. It is just a matter of controlling not just Goncalo Amaral and is band of bloggers, it is a matter of controlling courts and governments also. I think that shows just how disordered this man really is. He probably thought oh Theresa May, just a woman, what a prat!

viv said...

And another case perhaps where the perpetrator has always been known to the police, it is just that the CPS feel there is insufficient to obtain a conviction. Let us hope for Mrs Lamplugh, Suzy is finally found for her and her killer brought to justice.

No reason for complacency Gerry.

viv said...

Suzy Lamplugh case gets new lead as potential witness comes forwardEstate agent who vanished in 1986 was officially declared dead in 1994, but tip-off tells police to search near army base
Tweet this (21)Haroon Siddique and agencies guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 10 August 2010 08.28 BST Article history
Missing estate agent Suzy Lamplugh who vanished in July 1986. Photograph: PA

Detectives hunting for Suzy Lamplugh, the estate agent who went missing in 1986, will begin a new search for her body today after receiving a tip-off.

The 25-year-old disappeared after leaving her offices in Fulham, west London, to meet a mystery client. Her body has never been found and she was officially declared dead in 1994.

Police are to search the disused Norton army barracks, near Pershore, Worcestershire, after a potential witness said he saw a mound of earth there around the time Lamplugh vanished.

Scotland Yard officers will use ground-penetrating radar to comb the site, which has been previously searched in connection with the inquiry.

A spokesman said yesterday: "Officers investigating the disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh will be carrying out a search on Tuesday of a small area near Pershore in Worcestershire.

"The Met remains committed to solving the Suzy Lamplugh case and we will continue to work towards this end. We will follow up any information in relation to this case."

John Cannan, from Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands, was once named as the prime suspect in the murder investigation. He was questioned by police, but in 2002 the Crown Prosecution Service said there was insufficient evidence to charge him.

Lamplugh's mother, Diana Lamplugh, founded a charity in her daughter's name and spent years raising public awareness on personal safety issues alongside her husband, Paul. She was awarded an OBE in 1992 for her work with the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, which is a leading authority in the field.

After her disappearance, Lamplugh's white Ford Fiesta was discovered in Stevenage Road, Fulham, with the doors unlocked, the handbrake off and the ignition keys missing. Her purse, still containing £15, was in the pocket of the driver's door.

Thousands of lines of inquiry have been examined by officers since she went missing, with DNA testing carried out on 800 unidentified bodies in the aftermath of her disappearance. The case was first closed in October 1987, but the file remained open and the investigation was officially reopened in 2000.

In December of that year, officers conducted a fingertip search at the former army barracks in Norton, Worcestershire.

Detectives have apologised for "significant opportunities" that were missed during the original inquiry. They said that if they had been grasped, there might have been a prosecution years ago.

viv said...

Sion Jenkins 'refused compensation' for time in jail
Sion Jenkins, the former deputy head teacher cleared of murdering his foster daughter Billie-Jo, has been refused compensation for the time he spent in jail before he was released.

By Andy Bloxham
Published: 6:30AM BST 10 Aug 2010

Billie-Jo Jenkins, 13 , who was found murdered at her home in Hastings, Sussex Photo: PA Mr Jenkins, 52, was seeking up to £500,000 for the six years he served minus the board and lodging that is routinely deducted.

He was initially found guilty of the 13-year-old's murder in 1998 after she was killed with a metal tent peg on the patio of her home in East Sussex.

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Sir Ian Blair paid £580,000 in last eight months in officeMr Jenkins was eventually cleared of killing Billie-Jo in 2006 after hung juries at two re-trials.

At the time of the application in 2008, Mr Jenkins said: "I fulfil all the criteria."

However, the Ministry of Justice is understood to have rejected his request.

A spokesman refused to comment on the case but said: "For the purposes of paying compensation, the applicant must be shown to be 'clearly i

viv said...


What a stinging rebuke for the grasping Mr Jenkins, did his wealthy wife do the right thing and get rid of him.

Funny how these characters want at least half a million, there is nothing wrong with their inflated ego, that is for sure...

Gerry just doubled it.

viv said...

Wiz, I note there is even a webpage Sion Jenkins is innocent, erm apparently.

These words from him, again seem to produce a clear parallel with the conduct of Kate and Gerry McCann (the police do not know how to conduct a proper investigation):

Since my acquittal I have been reading through every available piece of evidence. I have divided this into relevant sections and with help from other people, I am in the process of trying to re-create the jigsaw of events. I will not rest until Billie’s killer is brought to justice.

I need to know who ended her life. So I work, read and investigate to this end.

Billie will never be forgotten. I will never give up. That is my message to the person who took her life.

Siôn Jenkins.

viv said...

Here the website complains about being forced to shut down, as a condition of Sion Jenkins release on bail.

In another area they sytematically attack the conduct and evidence of his former wife Lois Jenkins.

Sion Jenkins ignores the fact his children gave evidence against him and do not wish to see him, complaining he has been robbed of their childhood.

The website, just like Rosiepops, insists it is entirely independent of Sion Jenkins, hummm.


viv said...

It would be helpful if Mr Sion Jenkins gave us an update on how successful he has been to date, tracking down the killer of Billy Jo. But I suspect he will be every bit as unsuccessful as Kate and Gerry McCann. Maybe Gerry learned a few lessons from this fake Head Teacher?

Wizard said...

Suzy Lamplugh – new evidence

Detectives have apologised for "significant opportunities" that were missed during the original inquiry. They said that if they had been grasped, there might have been a prosecution years ago.

Hmm…it seems that culprits are never safe no matter how many years have passed since the crime was committed.

Wizard said...

Some more pollyfilla from Lorraine Kelly writing in the Sunday post (8th August) who says “Cameron must help Kate and Gerry”

“I’VE been on holiday in Spain where there are still posters of Madeleine McCann on display.
The search never stops for Maddie’s parents, Kate and Gerry.
They recently met Home Secretary Theresa May. Before he became prime minister David Cameron assured them he would do all he could. Now he has to make good on that promise.

The McCanns are convinced new evidence would come to light if there was a review.

It’s more than three years since Madeleine went missing in Portugal and her family are more determined than ever to find her.!

hope4truth said...

I am sure more evidence would come to light if their was a review but would Kate and Gerry really want it to???

If I am wrong about the McCanns killing or giving (selling) Maddie then I still think they are the scum of the earth for allowing her fund to be spent defending themselves and spinning her life into even greater danger than the night the left her to be taken from an unlocked apartment while they got pissed.....

If I am right how will people like Lorraine and Simpering Fiona feel about all the promotion they gave to parents who did something evil to their child???

How will they feel knowing it is because of idiots like them the Twins were left in very real danger and if there was the slightest chance Maddie could be found alive they have helped the McCanns in ensuring no one is really looking for her unless it is on their say so with images they have produced....

Kate and Gerry McCann were never fit to have children and showed on many occasions just how little Maddie ment to them, laughing your head off 9 days after you tell the world she has been snatched by a peadophile is sickening refusing to answer a single qustion for said child is nothing but pure evil....

How do they sleep at night????

viv said...

hiya both

As the Lamplugh and Jenkins cases demonstrate the police often know who the culprit is but cannot get sufficient evidence to actually prosecute. That does not mean they give up, Jenkins did spend 6 years in jail, not that that was enough, but now had the ultimate rebuke of his compensation refused on the basis it is not clear that he is innocent. Even Barry George who he befriended has been given the benefit of the doubt and paid a substantial amount. That just shows how convinced the authorities are about Jenkins.

I have a feeling that some day Lorraine Kelly is going to look an even bigger fool than she does right now. New evidence does come to light and the police never have given up on Maddie McCann or Suzy Lamplugh.

Hope, I entirely agree, we are not clear what they did with Maddie, but come what may your description of these is correct, scum!

docmac said...

Wiz, re the bag.

GPs here - the few that still do emergency and house calls carry a veritable pharmacy in their bags. This would certainly include sedatives, nowadays mainly of the quick-acting dissolve-under-the-tongue type. IV Valium is also carried, btw. Mainly for use in patients experiencing seizures. The IV prep is also used rectally in kids...

Wizard said...

Jane Tanner was asked by the pj to sit in a surveillance van when Murat and others walked by and it is said she identified Murat as bundleman. Something she later retracts when blustering through a police interview without making clear what she is saying – typical T9 speak with lots of erms etc and loss of focus.

The fingering of Murat by Tanner is not in the released pj files - so - are they holding this piece of information back or was the surveillance not carried out in accordance with written procedure thus not admissible. Who knows.

What is interesting is the McCanns and their lawyers have developed a version of events between 8.55 and 9.25pm on May 3 around the time constraints imposed by Jane Tanner’s sighting. (See McCannfiles 10.08.10)

Murat I believe is suing Tanner and it will be interesting if the case comes to court what she will say under cross examination.

Wizard said...

Hi Doc,

Thanks for the info – I see as a GP KM would have a lot of drugs at her disposal in her medical bag. The bag she no doubt kept at home.

viv said...

Hi Wiz

I recall reading a long time ago that Chief Superintendent Bob Small sat Jane in a white surveillance van and she FAILED to pick Murat out as he walked straight by.

I believe all this talk about her pointing Murat out as bundleman is pure forum myth.

The other odd thing for people to get their head around is this. Whatever LP did in PDL will be on the LP file which is confidential. People need to remember there are two separate files here and Gerry wants them both amalgamating...He even went to court to seek to demand the LP/SOCA/CEOP files on him,but had to humilatingly back down. He is still trying to demand sight of those files but this time by pressurising the government, having given up on the courts idea. He has tried both labour and conservative and the courts, nowhere else for him to go really.

He knows there is incriminating evidence against him on those files and he is never going to be officially cleared in the disappearance of Madeleine, that would be a grave injustice.

Brit cops know about his own brand of manipulation/perverting the course of justice, they are not playing let's have it all on the media (what suits Gerry)

As for Kate and her kitbag, I very much doubt she would have done house calls as a part time locum. But doctors do get given free samples and Gerry has a ready supplier of those. He would also have access to a lot of drugs at the hospital. If memory serves he had antihistamines and something for an ulcer, so when did he actually see the Doc, to have those prescribed?

I do think as SB suggested there is an odd reason for them going to Amsterdam, as the GP mentions having not seen Madeleine he then continued to not see her and then they changed GP, Doc wants to see the medical records but are there any! Kate was confined to bed in Amsterdam whilst pregnant with the twins

viv said...

Oh and Wiz, I will believe Murat is suing Tanner when I see it. That just does not make sense, he ought to be suing Russell, Fiona and Rachel who went back in July 2007 to confront him with their so called sighting of him. That would be far easier to prove as pure lie.

There is no point suing someone unless they have lots of cash. Although it was said this was a criminal action against Tanner. Well you know maybe I am wrong and the wheels of justice just move very slowly in Portugal but I do not believe for one minute they would upset UK by allowing such an action, unpacking the evidence and damaging any prospects of a proper criminal action going ahead against the real culprits and I do not think that was Jane. I think people are plotting against her actually.

Wizard said...

Hi Viv,

Myth or fact – when the pj made KM an arguido it was partly due to the dogs findings i.e. aroma of a corpse found in the apartment and on her clothing. They later apologised saying they did not take into account KM’s occupation.

It was suggested by I believe a member of the T9 if not KM herself that she had visited several dead people as part of her GP’s duties to write death certificates prior to her holiday. Hence the statement by the prosecutor’s office outlined above. If this is true then KM must have made house calls otherwise how did dead patients get to the surgery to be certified dead.

viv said...

Hi Wiz

I agree the McCanns (not just Kate!) were made arguidos due to the indications of the dogs. It is the same in UK, if you want to put specific and very incriminating evidence to suspects you must arrest and caution them and allow them their right to a solicitor/ the right to refuse to answer incriminating questions etc.

But the forensic evidence was inconclusive, therefore with no body either or evidence of what they did with it, they simply had no case against Kate and Gerry. Hence it as said it would have been better not to have made them arguidos and put the findings of the dogs to them, it would have been far better to have continued to investigate them and not alert them to that, but of course so much was being leaked to the press. That is not the way we do justice in UK and I do not believe it is the right way either. Kate and Gerry were not the type of people who were just going to admit anything, they were quite smart enough to know the dogs alone would not suffice.

I am not aware of any apology as you suggest from the PJ failing to take account of Kate's occupation, again and wit respect I would say that is pure forum myth. As is the notion that she herself put that into the media, it has never been clearly established just who did, but I would lay odds it was on the specific instructions of Gerry McCann.

Sometimes it is like his presence is being felt right here on this blog!

viv said...

Why did Rosiepops write 8000 posts on the Daily Express and why did Gerry wait so long to sue them?

Trying to protect his reputation, I hardly think so!

He was cashing in on the dogs!

Wizard said...

Further to my 14:37 post

Fact, myth or creative reporting these statement were published in most of the press at the times stated.

Belfast Telegraph 10th September 2007 article

“Forensic experts have also warned that evidence obtained from the use of cadaver-smelling dogs is open to challenge. According to the McCann family, detectives asked why a British-trained dog detected traces of a corpse on Mrs McCann's clothing and on a Bible in the apartment. Mrs McCann, a GP, has said she was present at six deaths before her holiday. Despite it being said that dogs' noses are anywhere between 1,000 and 10,000 times more effective than humans', and despite the dogs' training to detect traces of everything from drugs to cancers, experts warn that there are still difficulties using evidence uncovered by dogs.”

Mail 21st July 2008 The lifting of the McCanns arguido status

“The report, prepared by Portugal's attorney-general, Fernando José Pinto Monteiro, claims the two crucial errors led to the doctors from being made 'arguidos' in the case………

The second error was that when 'cadaver dogs' smelled the scent of death in the apartment where Madeleine disappeared, detectives did not take into account that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday.”

S.B. said...

Hi Viv.....,

"Kate was confined to bed in Amsterdam whilst pregnant with the twins"......

As I have also before stated ~ having experienced a difficult pregnancy with Madeleine which would in normal circumstances require constant medical specialist attention, why would Kate be prepared to leave the security of her home environment, her family and friends, when facing another course of IVF treatment? Left all alone in Amsterdam whilst Gerald is away galivanting, under the surveillance of a strange consultant, not family nor friend nearby?

It appears to me to be a rather radical approach to ones own health and wellbeing. Given the option of tried and tested medical expertise in my native country or that of a stranger in foreign lands, I know which I would choose!

Can you hear that? Its the siren heralding the start of Ramadan...........

docmac said...

Doc wants to see the medical records but are there any!"

But Viv, that is EXACTLY the point! Who treated (and where) Maddie's '18 hours a day' "colic" for the first 6 months of her life, for instance.

Have to say, colic lasting 6 months is unusual. "Colic" lasting 18 hours a day extremely unusual, and should certainly have been investigated extensively to exclude other more serious causes. Like NAIs, for examole.

docmac said...


Oh and Wiz, I will believe Murat is suing Tanner when I see it. That just does not make sense, he ought to be suing Russell, Fiona and Rachel who went back in July 2007 to confront him with their so called sighting of him. That would be far easier to prove as pure lie.

BRITON Robert Murat, wrongly labelled a suspect in the Madeleine investigation, is taking legal action against four of the McCanns’ friends, it was revealed yesterday.

The estate agent has lodged a “criminal complaint” against Jane Tanner, 39, who claimed she saw a man carrying a child near the McCanns’ holiday apartment on the night Madeleine vanished.

A second complaint has been made against Ms Tanner’s partner, Dr Russell O’Brien, and Fiona Payne and Rachael Oldfield, also members of the so-called Tapas Seven.

It's here

And here it is claimed that the inquest against Tanner began in February already.

docmac said...

The old 'Kate was present at 6 deaths before her holiday' is complete bullshit, Wiz.

Part-timer - 6 deaths in a short space of time? Kevorkian only averaged just over 1 a month, FFS! And he was at least a real doctor. He took clean clothes with him on holiday and didn't take a cuddly spectator with him to help certify death.

viv said...

Kate was either pregnant again as at May 2008 (which I think is highly unlikely) or, she was still on maternity leave from the twins and therefore would not have come into contact with even live patients, let alone dead ones. For me the issue has always been, why was she still on maternity leave when the twins were turned three!

I have to agree with Doc, talk of 6 dead bodies is the most incredible bullshit - to feed the doggy stories and the money Gerry planned to make out of them! Note the timing of the release of these stories, the dirty nappies rotting meat too, it is sentationalist rubbish isn't it! Do people not have a vision of Gerry laughing and rubbing his hands in glee? They were successful in several libel actions via Carter Ruck and clearly planned to take Goncalo for yet another million, this is what it is all about IMO.

03 Cartas Rogatorias Vol III Page 26

Leicestershire Police Force

From: DC443 J.N. HUGHES

To: SIO, Operation Task
Department: Main Criminal Unit

Date: 16th May 2008

Ref: Background Information– Kate McCann

Dear Sirs,

In response to your letter of request, I can provide the following information regarding the above-mentioned subject.

Kate McCann was born on March 5, 1968 in Merseyside.
Her maiden name is Healy, which she still uses in her clinical practice.
She is the bearer of British passport number **************.

She lives with her husband and children at Orchard House, 5 The Crescent, Rothley, Leicestershire, LE7 7RW. The house is subject to a mortgage for the amount of GBP 323.493 with the Northern Rock bank.

There is no report or statement of bank credit cards listed in the research carried out. However I was alerted to the fact that if an individual maintains an account open with the same bank or credit card accounts for a long period of time, these details do not appear in this kind of search.

She works for the local NHS as a GP in Latham House, Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire. She is currently on maternity leave.

Her phone number is ******* and she has a T mobile phone number ********.
There is no record of either of her surnames on the National Police Computer.

The search reference is NE84/0053/4.

A check of the location of the crime and information system is negative.

Inquiries made of local social services are negative.

Searches made of the local section of child abuse investigation shows a registration number 19309 in CATS (system of action location). A consultation with the DC Soand from the department in question confirms that this is just a file reference, but as a complement to Operation Task system for the purpose of reference, if any investigation should be necessary by the department. No work has been done on the basis of this file.

An examination of all other police files using a search system does not reveal any information about her.

Submitted for your information.

viv said...

To put it another way, Kate was on maternity leave with the twins when aged two years and two months. In short, it would seem the decision had already been taken, prior to the disappearance of Madeleine, that she would not be going back to work.

Doc that is the point I agree, what mum would not take her baby to the doctor, when that baby is apparently crying for 18 hours a day.

Two things spring to mind, this is further evidence of abuse and neglect of Madeleine or, Maddie did not cry for 18 hours a day, but that is a strange thing to make up. Personally I would not have thought it was physically possible for a baby to cry that long without dropping with exhaustion.

viv said...

Doc, thanks for the information about the apparent actions by Murat, suing all four certainly makes a lot more sense. I honestly cannot see what Jane has done, she may have just seen the Carpenter couple, even so, in the circumstances, she is bang on to report it. But I do believe Maddie had gone before they left the apartment that night.

viv said...

One thing I am clear about, the Brits would not want part of this case unpacked in a Pt court. Maybe it will stay under secrecy of justice until such time as the McCanns are arrested and charged?

I am also sure that the Pt would make sure that this time, secrecy of justice means just that, hence we hear nothing but!

Whilst looking at the PJ files again earlier, I noted that Fiona and Dave had SEVEN CREDIT CARDS
Odd or what. What is more Fiona shows odd defaults on payment dates! Maybe there are things she objects to paying for?

viv said...

Hi Wiz

In the Belfast Telegraph report you are quoting, it says "according to the McCann family". That could well be Philomena or Gerry McCann, it is not a direct quote from Kate, simply attributed to her. It would be difficult for her to then have denied it, the report I have quoted seems to demonstrate it was completely impossible anyway. Gerry did comment, far too much information has been put into the public domain. Well yes, because it proves his plants in the media are just pure lies, I am sure he resents that.

The second quote in the Mail is not the PJ apologising at all, it is the Mail saying they made an error, that would not be unusual for the Mail!

viv said...

Hiya SB, If kate had a difficult pregnancy with the twins and was confined to bed, it demonstrates the lie Kate told us, this strong bond she had with Madeleine. Someone had to be there to care for Madeleine, I believe it was the Camerons and they certainly seem to have developed a strong bond with Madeleine. I wonder how they must feel now?

I continue to find it very strange that the McCanns missed a scheduled television appearance on their European tour but did manage to squeeze in a visit to their friends in Amsterdam, leaving the twins, lost Maddie, why on earth would they do that? There has to be a very good reason, I think there is some sort of link with Trafigura.

viv said...

Halligen acted for Trafigura and McCanns

David Hughes acted for Trafigura and McCanns

Carter Ruck acted for Trafigura and McCanns.

When asked where the sightings are of Maddie from this file that Ricardo is ignoring, Kate mentions Amsterdam. Gerry just smirks and says well there is Jane Tanner and Martin Smith, who I believe is an Irish friend of Gerry's.

viv said...

I have often wondered if Jane Tanner had already dropped her sighting out the to the GNR guards before Russell and Gerry had managed to get hold of her. They had to take it from there and decided it would be useful, or is she just plain useful. I cannot make up my mind about Tanner, but could be prepared to give her the benefitof the doubt. Not her husband though!

Wizard said...

Morning Viv,
I agree with you completely visiting 6 dead patients in the weeks prior to her holiday is extremely unlikely. But surely this was checked out.

Direct quotes from Portugal's attorney-general, Fernando José Pinto Monteiro, regarding the dogs findings (scent of a corpse) and the arguido status of the McCanns published in the English and Portuguese press states that the prosecutors did not take into consideration KM’s occupation (i.e. exposed to corpse aroma) when making them arguidos.

Perfectly innocent explanations for everything as Clarence would say. Hmm.......

I believe the Mcs legal team told them it would be extremely difficult to be implicated further without a body being found. The attorney-general knows this and with a lot of the evidence so far gathered being circumstantial he uses this as an excuse to back down and legitimise the shelving of the case. The dog’s findings as we know are inadmissible in a Portuguese court anyway.

I’m still of the belief that when KM was being interrogate in Portugal by the pj she was shown the reactions of the dogs and gave her occupation as a reason for the aroma of a corpse being present. The pj did not believe her and made her an arguido but later must have checked it out and found it correct otherwise why would Monteiro give a statement to the World Press legitimising this explanation which on face value is ridiculous. So it must be true?

Di said...

Hi all

You all know that my grandchild suffered dreadfully from colic and reflux and cried for most of the day, but thankfully slept on and off during the night. After a few days the health visitor referred him to the doctor who put him on several medications. The doctor monitored him on a weekly basis for several months. Even if he had not been referred so quickly my daughter would have taken him to the doctor, as the over the counter remedies did not work. If Madeleine did not see her doctor then I can only believe one thing.

Hi Viv

I don't know whether anyone else remembers, someone posted that Kate's maternity leave was extended because she was suffering from post natal depression. I don't know how this person would be privy to such information or whether it was forum myth. The only thing I can say, Gerry has always been happy to admit Kate needed help with the twins and could not be left alone.

docmac said...

Hi Di

Two key words that you used there: "and reflux". In your grandchild's case, an alternate and additional diagnosis was made, and this would have been treated appropriately by the doctor. There are many, many other possible alternate diagnoses too.

I do not believe that Maddie had (only) colic.

Wizard said...

I was just reading an article about DNA evidence. When only a small sample of dna is available (similar to those sent to the Birmingham lab in the McCann case) interpretations of samples can be highly subjective and prone to error according to a study done by the New Scientist.

The magazine sent a sample of DNA from a real crime scene to 17 experienced analysts in an US laboratory. The experts’ differing results cast doubts over the techniques reliability.

Only one of the 17 scientists came to the same conclusion. Four said the evidence was inconclusive and 12 said the evidence showed the dna’s owner could be excluded from the crime (a crime which the DNA’s owner was found guilty of.)

Are Birmingham’s experts so different to their US counterparts I wonder.

viv said...

Hiya again Wiz

When the claim was put forward in the media the McCanns were subject to secrecy of justice that forbade them from publically commenting about any factual details of the PJ investigation.

The UK Police report to the PJ that I have posted, dated May 2008 demonstrates that Kate was still on maternity leave, that surely must have been following the birth of the twins in February 2005.

I do not believe the police would have bothered to check out such a report put into the newspapers for the benefit of spin, although of course they were watching what the McCanns were wishing to put into the press in terms of assessing their guilty/money collecting conduct.

I think, as Di suggests above, post natal depression following the birth of the twins is a highly plausible explanation for why Kate was on maternity leave for such an extended period.

She had a very difficulty pregnancy with the twins, she had not been able to look after Madeleine during that lengthy process of being confined to bed in a strange country.

To top it all in January 2006 the McCanns purchased their current home for £459,000 and again the report indicates they had a £323000 mortage as at May 2008. A lot of moving around, Amsterdam, Queniborough (their former Leics home) and then Rothley. That is very stressful in itself to an aging mum. When she had to organise that further move the twins were 11 months and Maddie about two and three quarters. Imagine how much help Gerry gave her?

So they are also very short of money and she is not well enough to go back to work.

I think this helps to place into context what happened to Madeleine and I am afraid does confirm that certainly so far as Gerry was concerned, decisions had been taken regarding shrieking Madeleine and the hefty mortgage he wanted his Fund to pay for, before they went on holiday.

viv said...

Hiya Di,

Thanks for outlining the problems your little grandson endured and the urgent medical attention he obviously needed for that and got.

That again is the problem for the McCanns of all this evidence coming into the public domain. We can see that Kate tells us Maddie was in fact very ill as a baby, but by the same token we can see that if that is true she was seriously neglected by not being frequently taken to the doctors for appropriate treatment. Not to mention appropriate support for Kate. I can personally recall when Luke was a baby, he kept getting croup and being very unwell. I had the other two as well. On one occasion I attended the doctors with Luke very poorly again and the other two and just sobbed on the doctor's shoulder. Being a mum to three children and one of them not well is very stressful and upsetting.

Luke had his tonsils taken out when aged about four, end of problems! But not for me, he spat blood all over me lol!

viv said...

Hiya Wiz

Thanks for the technical detail that really confirms what little forensic evidence could have been gathered, months later and after the proeperty had no doubt been cleaned several times and re-occupied would have been such that the best that oculd be hoped for what the sort of "inconclusive" forensic results you outline. That is precisely what happened and I do think the PJ were perhaps in error in putting the findings of the dogs to Kate and Gerry at stage with nothing to back it up.

I think they should have waited for the final report and then realised it was pointless trying to prosecute on that basis. I also think it was Goncalo's determination to try and do that, that was partially instrumental in getting him removed. He may be convinced that is what happened, but the law and proving it is another matter unfortunately.

But I think it actually goes deeper than that, I still firmly believe that Brit authorities/ Rebelo etc believe this case involves sexual abuse and Madeleine may have been disposed of alive. All the signs seem to point that way including the continuing appeals of CEOP. They do not do that to spin for the McCanns, that is just pure forum rubbish!

viv said...

Doc, Maddie is only 20 months older than the twins. That means that when this poorly and difficult little baby was only 11 months old Kate was pregnant again. At what stage did further treatment start to get her pregnant again and if Maddie was so difficult why on earth did they do that?

I continue to believe that if Gerry ever is convicted people will just recoil with horror at the capabilities and thinking style of this man.

viv said...

Did they go to Amsterdam for treatment for Kate because no British Clinic would carry out the procedure on Kate at such an early stage following her last pregnancy?

What about the physical and mental health of Kate? She was not young by child bearing standards and I think it is likely in UK they would have been refused further treatment at such an early stage following her last pregnancy. If she finished up very unwell and having to give up on what is undoubtedly a great career that she worked extremely hard for, it is hardly surprising.

viv said...

Wiz, in answer to the other point you make.
The PJ would have had to make Kate an Arguida prior to putting the video of the dogs etc to her because it is evidence that tends to directly incriminate her. It is well publicised that once Kate was made an Arguida, on the second day of her being interviewed she refused to answer all questions put to her, other than to comment, "if the investigation thinks so".

That could be pure aggressive sarcasm or it could be you are barking completely up the wrong tree, Maddie was abducted and you don't know what you are talking about. Given the determination of the PJ at that stage to try and charge her or put her into protective custody, her lawyer was entirely correct to advise her not to answer any questions at all.

But of course as a mother, if she believed that Maddie had beena bducted and her own husband was involved in that, she should have said so!

viv said...

But of course the evidence of Kate being determined to take the children into bed as early as 6 pm that night would tend to suggest that she was just as much involved in getting rid of Maddie as her husband was, at least she may have some legal mitigation, her mental health.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Gerry's mental health. Nothing affects his ability to attend various meetings designed to improve his position and hold down a full time job!

docmac said...


Considering that the 'live birth' success rate of IVF (if that was the assisted reproductive technology used - this seems to be the only method known to lay people and the press) may be as low as 25% (over multiple cycles)in the over-35s, chances are the treatment may have started early. However, there are those who achieve pregnancy during the first cycle and a few of them will progress to term.

Too, whatever we may think, Kate's clock was ticking, especially on the assisted pregnancy scale.

Having said that I do concur, as I too believe Gerry would have pushed her hard for another quick pregnancy. It's his way.

viv said...

Hiya Doc, that was what I was getting at really. If she conceived when Maddie was only 11 months old when did they decide to do this and when did the treatment actually start?

It just does not make sense really does it? Kate says she had this incredibly difficult baby who cried up to 18 hours a day, but at the same time, she was going in for another one?

I appreciate her biological clock was ticking but that does not detract from the fact this was a dangerous stupid and illogical thing to do and I do feel may well explain why it had to happen in the Netherlands.

Neither the welfare of Kate or Madeleine seems to have been considered here. Did Gerry just want to try again for his trophy child before it was too late?

Was Kate in the right frame of mind to make a sound decision about this? More and more we can see that the way one imagine a couple of doctors to act and the way in which Kate and Gerry act, are the complete antithesis.

docmac said...

His trophy son, Viv.

I did write my previous post twice. The first got 'lost' as I posted. It was much in the same vein as that above, but I did say that having had such a fractious and difficult child to deal with at the time, it must have been a terribly hard decision for Kate. For Gerry, maybe not.

viv said...

Hiya Doc

and what of the health issues of having all those hormones pumped into her, so many times in quick succession?

Ivf is much more risky to both the infant and the mother. Counselling is mandatory under our own laws to make sure all the issues have been properly considered. Kate should not have been going through these procedures at that time. If she was not well, and he supposedly loves her, he most certainly should have known better.

I am not clear that boys would interest him so much but of course there is the sporting angle.

viv said...

It would be interesting to know just how many women of Kate's age are or find it permissible to have one baby and whilst that baby is probably still being breast fed even, start IVF procedure all over again without any sensible gap in time.

I am not an expert in this and do not plan to read all the codes of practice or the relevant law, but I have a feeling that is just not on.

I have seen enough to know it is a vast and complex subject which is very extensively legislated in UK.

viv said...

Sightings were coming in of a ?"blond haired blue eyed child"

Forgive for pointing this out yet again, but that tennis balls pic, the official last photo of Maddie on the Portuguese Police file, she does not look anything like a blond haired blue eyed child to me !

Reports that Belgian paedophile ring 'stole Maddy to order' are flawed

By Sam Marsden, PA, in Praia da Luz

Thursday, 7 August 2008
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More anguish for Gerry and Kate McCann: the couple's detectives had been taking the Belgian link very seriously

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Secret intelligence claiming Madeleine McCann was snatched to order by a Belgian paedophile ring is flawed, sources said today.

Private detectives working for the girl's parents are urgently following up the report from an informant disclosed in Portuguese police files.

The tip-off was recorded by an intelligence officer working for Scotland Yard's CO14 clubs and vice unit.

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But sources said the information was second or even third-hand and impossible to corroborate with forces in the UK or abroad.

It is believed to have been one of dozens of similar reports passed to the unit in the wake of Madeleine's disappearance.

The informant said a photograph of the child on holiday in Portugal was taken and passed to a "purchaser" in Belgium days before she vanished.

The confidential report read: "Intelligence suggests that a paedophile ring in Belgium made an order for a young girl three days before Madeleine McCann was taken.

"Somebody connected to this group saw Maddie, took a photograph of her and sent it to Belgium.

"The purchaser agreed that the girl was suitable and Maddie was taken."

Portuguese police pursued the lead with Interpol, which gathered further reports from Belgium, the UK, Finland and Germany.

But detective Paulo Rebelo, head of the Madeleine inquiry, ruled that all but the German intelligence showed "lack of credibility".

As a result, the Scotland Yard tip-off was added to the massive file of evidence considered during the hunt for Madeleine.

A Metropolitan Police spokeswoman said everything possible was done to follow up the snippet of information.

She said: "Unsubstantiated information was received by CO14 relating to the disappearance of Madeline McCann.

"This was passed onto Leicestershire Police on 4 March 2008.

"The information was further discussed with Leicestershire Police verbally and all possible lines of inquiry were conducted.

"Leicestershire Police passed the information on to the Portuguese Authorities."

viv said...

Belgium is less than 100 miles from Amsterdam where there have been two possible sightings of the missing youngster.

Shop assistant Anna Stam, 41, spoke to a little girl called "Maddy" who said she had been taken from her mother while on holiday in May last year.

Hannie Wiechmann, 71, called police after seeing a young child she believed to be the missing girl in the second week of May last year.

She told the Dutch newspaper Metro she "just knew" it was Madeleine because of her eyes and her "unequally-cut fringe" and dyed hair.

Police also investigated a sighting of a girl who looked like the missing child at a service station near the town of Tongeren on Dutch border last August.

viv said...

A friend of Kate and Gerry McCann, both 40, from Rothley, Leicestershire, said the couple's detectives were taking the Belgian link very seriously.

"Trafficking into Belgium forms a very strong part of their investigations, as does trafficking into North Africa," the friend said.

"There is definitive hard evidence that this is very much alive and happening, and they have looked into the fact that someone was targeting children and they may well have been stealing to order."

McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell refused to comment on "sensitive" information found in the Portuguese police case files.

He said: "Clearly any information of that nature - Kate and Gerry would hope that the Portuguese police in conjunction with Interpol have acted to the absolute best of their ability in following this up.

"The private investigators, as with all the other sightings and all the other information, will be pursuing this line as an absolute priority to establish if it has been fully investigated and properly ruled out.

"They have got some of the information already from their lawyers and investigators and they are waiting to hear from them what is legitimate, what is promising and what is not.

"They are frustrated by the delays and the mistakes that were made.

"They have learned an awful lot about this kind of thing, and God forbid she has fallen foul of any of these types."

Belgium has been rocked by several appalling paedophile cases, including that of unemployed electrician Marc Dutroux.

The 47-year-old was jailed for life four years ago after being convicted of kidnapping, raping and murdering young girls.

In one interview Dutroux claimed he was part of a wider paedophile ring but police did not want to pursue it.

Dutch police refused to comment, referring inquiries to the Portuguese authorities.

Madeleine was nearly four when she vanished from her family's holiday flat in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on 3 May last year.

On 21 July Portuguese prosecutors announced they were shelving the case, although it can be reopened if credible new evidence comes to light.

At the same time the McCanns and Algarve resident Robert Murat were told they were no longer "arguidos", or formal suspects, in the investigation.

Responding to the Metropolitan Police intelligence, a spokesman for Belgium's Federal Police said: "At this point we do not have any information such as that quoted in press reports.

"Our police, our missing person team, paedophile unit, are not aware of this information. We are checking with the British police.

"We find it all a bit strange. We are not aware and we have never found a paedophile network in Belgium that could order, sell or buy children like this."

A Belgian woman reported seeing a young girl who looked "very much" like Madeleine with an Eastern European couple on a tram in Brussels 12 days after she disappeared, the files reveal.

Line Compere, 31, told Belgian police she saw the blonde-haired, blue-eyed child on the number 18 tram heading towards the main Midi train station at about 8.45am on 15 May last year.

Her suspicions were aroused because the man and woman with the youngster did not look like her, appeared to be speaking a different language from her and did not seem to know her well.

At that point she had never seen a picture of Madeleine but later that day she was shown a photograph of the missing girl.

Ms Compere told police in her interview on 1 June last year: "When I saw the photo in question, it immediately jumped out to me that there was a big resemblance to the little girl on the tram."

The report was passed on to the Portuguese police but it is unclear what action was taken to follow it up.

viv said...

so if the McCanns want some absolute bullshit and lies putting into the media, a "friend of the McCanns" does it for them!