9 Jun 2008

NEGLECT IS CHILD ABUSE

REASONS TO BE CHEERFUL (part 973.5) THE SMIRKING MCCANNS IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THEIR JET-SETTING TOURS ..WHO NEEDED A ONE TO ONE CHAT WITH THEIR FRIENDS IN HOLLAND..IS GERRY IMAGINING THE BOX FULL OF CASH?
To those who would say, let us just forget the admitted and very serious child neglect by Kate and Gerry McCann, I say, read this!

Viv


Child Abuse and Neglect:
Types, Signs, Symptoms, Causes and Getting Help
Each year, tens of thousands of children are traumatized by physical, sexual, and emotional abusers or by caregivers who neglect them, making child abuse as common as it is shocking. The scars can be deep and long-lasting, affecting not just abused children but society. You can learn the signs and symptoms of child abuse and find out where to get help for the children and their caregivers.
In This Article:
Child abuse facts
Child neglect
Physical child abuse
Sexual abuse in children
Emotional child abuse
Causes of child abuse
Effects of child abuse
Getting help for an abused child
Preventing or stopping child abuse
Related links
Print Authors
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Child abuse facts
Most of us can’t imagine what would make an adult use violence against a child, and the worse the behavior is, the more unimaginable it seems. But the incidence of parents and other caregivers consciously, even willfully, committing acts that harm the very children they’re supposed to be nurturing is a sad fact of human society that cuts across all lines of ethnicity and class. Whether the abuse is rooted in the perpetrator’s mental illness, substance abuse, or inability to cope, the psychological result for each abused child is often the same: deep emotional scars and a feeling of worthlessness.
In the United States, the federal legislation that sets minimum standards for how states handle child abuse defines child abuse and neglect as “any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker, which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse, or exploitation, or an act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.” In 2005, the most recent year for which the U.S. government has figures, 12.1 of every 1,000 American children, almost 900,000 in all, suffered abuse by adults, with parents of victims accounting for almost 80 percent of the abusers. Every day, about four children die in the U.S. because of abuse or neglect, most of them babies or toddlers. And those are just the cases authorities know about: for every incidence of child abuse or neglect that gets reported, it’s estimated that two others go unreported.
There are four primary types of child abuse:
physical abuse
sexual abuse
emotional abuse (i.e. dumping your children day and night on "holiday")
neglect (i.e. leaving tiny tots without a babysitter)
While the first two categories get the most attention, perhaps because they involve physical violence, neglect is far and away the most common form of child abuse, accounting for more than 60 percent of all cases of child maltreatment.
Child neglect: types and warning signs
Neglect is a pattern of failing to provide for a child's basic needs, to the extent that the child’s physical and/or psychological well-being are damaged or endangered. In child neglect, the parents or caregivers are simply choosing not to do their job. There are three basic types of neglect.
Physical Neglect
Failure to provide adequate food, clothing, or hygiene
Reckless disregard for the child’s safety, such as inattention to hazards in the home, drunk driving with kids in the car, leaving a baby unattended
Refusal to provide or delay in providing necessary health care for the child
Abandoning children without providing for their care or expelling children from the home without arranging for their care
Educational Neglect
Failure to enroll a child in school
Permitting or causing a child to miss too many days of school
Refusal to follow up on obtaining services for a child’s special educational needs
Emotional Neglect
Inadequate nurturing or affection
Exposure of the child to spousal abuse
Permitting a child to drink alcohol or use recreational drugs
Failure to intervene when the child demonstrates antisocial behavior
Refusal of or delay in providing necessary psychological care
Some signs of child neglect:
Clothes that are dirty, ill-fitting, ragged, and/or not suitable for the weather
Unwashed appearance; offensive body odor
Indicators of hunger: asking for or stealing food, going through trash for food, eating too fast or too much when food is provided for a group
Apparent lack of supervision: wandering alone, home alone, left in a car
Colds, fevers, or rashes left untreated; infected cuts; chronic tiredness
In schoolchildren, frequent absence or lateness; troublesome, disruptive behavior or its opposite, withdrawal
In babies, failure to thrive; failure to relate to other people or to surroundings
A single occurrence of one of these indicators isn’t necessarily a sign of child neglect, but a pattern of behaviors may demonstrate a lack of care that constitutes abuse.
Physical child abuse: types and warning signs
Physical child abuse is an adult’s physical act of aggression directed at a child that causes injury, even if the adult didn’t intend to injure the child. Such acts of aggression include striking a child with the hand, fist, or foot or with an object; burning the child with a hot object; shaking, pushing, or throwing a child; pinching or biting the child; pulling a child by the hair; cutting off a child’s air. Such acts of physical aggression account for between 15 and 20 percent of documented child abuse cases each year.
Many physically abusive parents and caregivers insist that their actions are simply forms of discipline, ways to make children learn to behave. But there’s a big difference between giving an unmanageable child a swat on the backside and twisting the child’s arm until it breaks. Physically abusive parents have issues of anger, excessive need for control, or immaturity that make them unable or unwilling to see their level of aggression as inappropriate.
Sometimes the very youngest children, even babies not yet born, suffer physical abuse. Because many chemicals pass easily from a pregnant woman’s system to that of a fetus, a mother’s use of drugs or alcohol during pregnancy can cause serious neurological and physiological damage to the unborn child, such as the effects of fetal alcohol syndrome; mothers can also pass on drugs or alcohol in breast milk. A woman who drinks or uses drugs when she knows she’s pregnant can be charged with child abuse in many jurisdictions if her baby is born with problems because of the substance use.
Another form of child abuse involving babies is shaken baby syndrome, in which a frustrated caregiver shakes a baby roughly to make the baby stop crying. The baby’s neck muscles can’t support the baby’s head yet, and the brain bounces around inside its skull, suffering damage that often leads to severe neurological problems and even death. While the person shaking the baby may not mean to hurt him, shaking a baby in a way that can cause injury is a form of child abuse.
An odd form of physical child abuse is Munchausen’s syndrome by proxy, in which a parent causes a child to become ill and rushes the chlld to the hospital or convinces doctors that the child is sick. It’s a way for the parent to gain attention and sympathy, and its dangers to the child constitute child abuse.
Is corporal punishment the same as physical abuse?
Corporal punishment, the use of physical force with the intent of inflicting bodily pain, but not injury, for the purpose of correction or control, used to be a very common form of discipline: most of us know it as spanking or paddling. And many of us were spanked as children without damage to body or psyche.
The widespread use of physical punishment, however, doesn’t make it a good idea. Most child-care experts have come to agree that corporal punishment sends the message to children that physical force is an appropriate response to problems or opposition. The level of force used by an angry or frustrated parent can easily get out of hand and lead to injury. Even if it doesn’t, what a child learns from being hit as punishment is less about why conduct is right or wrong than about behaving well — or hiding bad behavior — out of fear of being hit.
Signs of physical child abuse include visible marks of maltreatment, such as cuts, bruises, welts, or well-defined burns, and reluctance to go home. If you ask a child about how he or she got hurt and the child talks vaguely or evasively about falling off a fence or spilling a hot dish, think hard before you accept the child’s story at face value.
Sexual abuse in children: types and warning signs
Sexual abuse, which accounts for about 10 percent of child abuse, is any sexual act between an adult and a child. Such acts include:
Behavior involving penetration – vaginal or anal intercourse and oral sex
Fondling – Touching or kissing a child's genitals, making a child fondle an adult's genitals.
Violations of privacy – Forcing a child to undress, spying on a child in the bathroom or bedroom.
Exposing children to adult sexuality – Performing sexual acts in front of a child, exposing genitals, telling "dirty" stories, showing pornography to a child.
Exploitation – Selling a child’s services as a prostitute or a performer in pornography.
The adult who sexually abuses a child or adolescent is usually someone the child knows and is supposed to trust: a relative, childcare provider, family friend, neighbor, teacher, coach, or clergy member. More than 80 percent of sex offenders are people the child or adolescent victims know. It’s important to understand that no matter what the adult says in defense of his or her actions, the child did not invite the sexual activity and the adult’s behavior is wrong. Sexual abuse is never the child's fault.
Children are psychologically unable to handle sexual stimulation. Even toddlers, who haven’t formulated the idea that the sexual abuse is wrong, will develop problems resulting from the overstimulation. Older children who know and care for their abusers know that the sexual behavior is wrong, but they may feel trapped by feelings of loyalty and affection. Abusers warn their victims not to tell, threatening children with violence or ostracism, and the shame associated with the sexual activity makes the child especially reluctant to tell. When sexual abuse occurs within the family, children may worry that other family members won’t believe them and will be angry with them if they tell — as is often the case. The layer of shame that accompanies sexual abuse makes the behavior doubly traumatizing.
Some signs of sexual child abuse
Often children who have suffered sexual abuse show no physical signs, and the abuse goes undetected unless a physician spots evidence of forced sexual activity. However, there are behavioral clues to sexual abuse, including:
Inappropriate interest in or knowledge of sexual acts
Seductive behavior
Reluctance or refusal to undress in front of others
Extra aggression or, at the other end of the spectrum, extra compliance
Fear of a particular person or family member
Children who use the Internet are also vulnerable to come-ons by adults online. Among the warning signs of online sexual child abuse are these:
Your child spends large amounts of time online, especially at night.
You find pornography on your child's computer.
Your child receives phone calls from people you don't know, or makes calls, sometimes long distance, to numbers you don't recognize.
Your child receives mail, gifts, or packages from someone you don't know.
Your child turns the computer monitor off or quickly changes the screen on the monitor when you come into the room.
Your child becomes withdrawn from the family.
Your child is using an online account belonging to someone else.
Emotional child abuse: types and warning signs
Emotional child abuse involves behavior that interferes with a child’s mental health or social development: one website calls it “the systematic tearing down of another human being.” Such abuse can range from verbal insults to acts of terror, and it’s almost always a factor in the other three categories of abuse. While emotional abuse by itself doesn’t involve the infliction of physical pain or inappropriate physical contact, it can have more long-lasting negative psychological effects than either physical abuse or sexual abuse.
Examples of emotional child abuse include:
Verbal abuse
Belittling or shaming the child: name-calling, making negative comparisons to others, telling the child he or she is “no good," "worthless," "a mistake."
Habitual blaming: telling the child that everything is his or her fault.
Withholding affection
Ignoring or disregarding the child
Lack of affection and warmth: Failure to hug, praise, express love for the child
Extreme punishment
These are actions that are meant to isolate and terrorize a child, such as tying the child to a fixture or piece of furniture or locking a child in a closet or dark room.
Corruption
This involves causing a child to witness or participate in inappropriate behavior, such as criminal activities, drug or alcohol abuse, or acts of violence.
Emotional abuse can come not only from adults but from other children: siblings, neighborhood or schoolyard bullies, peers in schools that permit a culture of social ostracism (the “mean girl” syndrome). The signs of emotional child abuse include apathy, depression, and hostility. If it happens at school, the child may be reluctant to go to school and develop or fake a physical complaint.
Causes of child abuse
Why would someone abuse a defenseless child? What kind of person abuses a child? Not all child abuse is deliberate or intended. Several factors in a person's life may combine to cause them to abuse a child:
Stress, including the stress of caring for children, or the stress of caring for a child with a disability, special needs, or difficult behaviors
Lack of nurturing qualities necessary for child care
Immaturity: a disproportionate number of parents who abuse their children are teenagers
Difficulty controlling anger
Personal history of being abused
Isolation from the family or community
Physical or mental health problems, such as depression and anxiety
Alcohol or drug abuse
Personal problems such as marital conflict, unemployment, or financial difficulties.
No one has been able to predict which of these factors will cause someone to abuse a child. A significant factor is that abuse tends to be intergenerational – those who were abused as children are more likely to repeat the act when they become parents or caretakers.
In addition, many forms of child abuse arise from ignorance. Sometimes a cultural tradition leads to abuse. Such beliefs include:
Children are property.
Parents (especially fathers) have the right to control their children in any way they wish.
Children need to be toughened up to face the hardships of life.
Girls need to be genitally mutilated to assure virginity and later marriage.
Effects of child abuse
Child abuse can produce dire consequences during the victim’s childhood and adulthood. Some effects of child abuse are obvious: a child is malnourished or has a cast on her arm; a nine-year-old develops a sexually transmitted disease. But some physiological effects of child abuse, such as cognitive difficulties or lingering health problems, may not show up for some time or be clearly attributable to abuse. Other effects of child abuse are invisible or go off like time bombs later in life.
Emotional Effects of Child Abuse
Just as all types of child abuse have an emotional component, all affect the emotions of the victims. These effects include
Low self-esteem
Depression and anxiety
Aggressive behavior/anger issues
Relationship difficulties
Alienation and withdrawal
Personality disorders
Clinginess, neediness
Flashbacks and nightmares
Many adults who were abused as children find it difficult to trust other people, endure physical closeness, and establish intimate relationships.
Behavioral Effects of Child Abuse
Child abuse can play itself out not only in how its victims feel but in what they do years later. Children who suffer abuse have much greater chances of being arrested later as juveniles and as adults. Significant percentages of inmates in U.S. prisons were abused as children. One of every three abused or neglected children will grow up to become an abusive parent.
Other behavioral effects include
Problems in school and work
Prostitution
Teen pregnancy
Suicide attempts
Criminal or antisocial behavior
Alcohol and drug abuse
Eating disorders
Spousal abuse
Getting help for an abused child
Although many people are reluctant to get involved in other families’ lives, when it comes to child abuse, you don’t have the option of keeping mum. If you know of a child being abused or even suspect abuse, you have the responsibility to report it. In the United States, Canada, and Australia, the concept of mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse is well established and is beginning to catch on in other countries around the world. Laws on mandatory reporters designate classes of professionals — typically school personnel, social workers, health care workers, mental health professionals, childcare providers, and law enforcement personnel, but in some states also clergy, film processors, and drug abuse counselors — who must report suspected child abuse. Eighteen states and Puerto Rico require all citizens to report suspected abuse or neglect.
By reporting, you can make a tremendous difference in the life of a child and the child’s family, especially if you help stop the abuse early. Early identification and treatment can help mitigate the long-term effects of abuse. If the abuse is stopped and the child receives competent treatment, the abused child can begin to regain a sense of self-confidence and trust. Parents may also benefit from support, parent training and anger management.
The best first place to call to report suspected child abuse is:
The Childhelp National Child Abuse Hotline: 1-800-4-A-CHILD (1-800-422-4453)
Staffers at the hotline can help:
Victims: children and teens who have been abused
Survivors of child abuse
Abusers: people who have abused a child or who are afraid that they may abuse a child
Witnesses to child abuse
Childhelp cannot make a report of child abuse for you, but it can set up a three-way call with your local enforcement agency. You can also call your local enforcement agency directly to report child abuse. Childhelp has a list of local phone numbers you can call for your county or state in the U.S.
Reporting is anonymous. In most states, you do not have to give your name when you report child abuse. The child abuser cannot find out who made the report of child abuse.

216 comments:

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nancy said...

Viv -

A really accurate and in depth article that will touch a chord with all of us I'm sure - it covers so many aspects of child abuse and neglect and we know for a fact that the number of children who suffer from these maltreatments is more than any of us can imagine! And the numbers are increasing day by day in today's drug ridden and self obsessed, materialistic society.

Thanks for that grim reminder that while we are fighting here for justice to be given to one little girl whose name as been given prime media attention, so we can also talk on behalf of other children who are equally as important.

All children deserve society's care and attention and should be given number one priority by everyone, of that there is no doubt.

All of us can start by looking out for signs of child neglect, and not be afraid to let authorities know when something suspicious is thought to be going on. Too many people think it's just none of their business, but it's everybody's business to make sure our children are safe.

Justice for Madeleine and abused and neglected children.

nancy said...

Viv -

Your post yesterday at 19.10 about the mobile phone calls Gerry made and received between April 27th and May 3rd, obviously brings up the possibility that Madeleine's disappearance could have been prearranged. Kate rushing back to the tapas bar screaming 'they've taken her' for instance, is a very telling remark!

Also the 10th tapa being kept secret by the judiciary is an interesting development. Just why would that be unless he was deemed to be part of a huge scam?

And just where does Robert Murat fit into all of this?

And of course, as neglectful as the tapas pals were, I don't think they would have been in on a scam because their jobs and lifestyle would be too much at stake. Unless they were paid a great deal to keep quiet that is!

Do the McCanns know just where Madeleine is, and could they be planning a visit to see her on the break they are planning I wonder?

It could account for why they have never acted like grieving parents with huge grins on their faces on various occasions.

I'm probably completely barking up the wrong tree, but I don't think things are as simple as we first thought - if it was an abductor, was it pre-arranged and let in by the front door!!

But then what about the forensic evidence. I'm completely confused by it all!

It all gets curiouser and curiouser!

What do you and others think?

Nx

ratonthebeam said...

Viv - last night I was watching a program on the Crime Channel about 2 Doctors, with 3 kids, who house got torched and 2 of the kids died.

After 3 years investigations, the forensic evidence proved that that mother - Dr Deborah Green - set the fire herself, to "get even" with her estranged husband.

She deliberately murdered two of her own kids to try and frame her husband. She is now doing life with no possibility of parole.

Of course, nice middle class Doctors would never do such a thing!

It was a very shocking program and I had never heard of this case before. I will try and find a link for you.

ratonthebeam said...

Here you go - Debora Green. Sorry I made a mistake re the parole, I remembered it wrong. She'll be eligible for parole in 2035.

nancy said...

A bit of up to date news from the McCann Files -

It seems the McCanns still have itchy feet!

According to Hello Magazine, K&G are considering heading to Strasbourg to bolster support for their campaign, backed by Hello, to introduce a European World Wide Child Abduction scheme based on the Amber Alert System in the United States!

Kate was too feeble to go back to PdeL and throw some flowers where Madeleine was last seen, but not to get on the gravy train again it seems!

And they want to keep out of the spotlight CM would have us believe! They just can't get enough of it that's the truth!

Another attempt to get into the spotlight, paid for by the taxpayers and no doubt backed by one of our feeble government ministers!

And how does Gerry manages to get so much time off work? The truth is he really doesn't need to work these days with their millionair financial backer and money from those little brown envelopes!

And just how is all this going to help them find their 'abducted' daughter?

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you certainly can't fool all of the people all of the time!

viv said...

Hiya Rob

Thanks for that, it is true that human behaviour always has the capacity to shock. I would be interested to read more about this.

Nancy

I think it is best to believe what the police actually tell us, i.e. they have forensic evidence and the sniffer dog evidence that Madeleine died in that apartment.

As you say it is also being investigated as to whether this was planned. The speed with which the fund was sent up and the sheer planning and determination of Gerry McCanns campaign do lead me to that conclusion I am afraid. I think there was a plan, that it would look like an abduction and this other person is an accomplice, it may be Murat, I am not sure about that. But in order to pull all this off, including disposing of the body, I do think they would have needed help. I do not think their friends were involved but rather they became involved. I think Gerry may have pointed out to them -well you left your kids too 10 years jail..the only way out of this is to just have a pact of silence. I think he is as cold and calculating as that.

As regards why do the McCanns manage to laugh rather than cry, cash in on her death etc. you need to look at the link on the right about psycopathic personality disorder, that explains it all. Many killers are found to suffer from this.

Viv x

nancy said...

Viv -

Thanks for your reply and I agree with all you say. At the end of the day we have to wait and see what comes out of all this. Let's hope it's soon!

I will look at that link about the ppd now.

Nx

ratonthebeam said...

I am more and more convinced, the more I think about it, that the entire thing was planned. Someone on the 3As has this as their sig -

"They've taken her!"
"WHO, Kate? WHO took your baby?"

Says it all IMHO. Setting up websites, companies and wider agendae within days. This is NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOUR.

I keep hoping that it maybe just IS all a big scam and that one day, the wee soul IS found alive. I won't go so far as to say "unharmed" because even if it IS a scam, and she has been in the safe hands of some relative or friend all this time, the psychological damage would still be immense.

But then I keep coming back to Eddie and Keela, and Goncalo Amaral.

I just don't know what to believe anymore, to be honest.

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

ROTB,

Thanks for the link to that article.

Nancy,

I agree with your posts above. I also agree with Viv regarding that it is best to believe what the Police tell us. I will wait patiently until the PJ are ready to inform the public regarding this case.

Viv,

Thanks for the info above. How anyone cannot accept that leaving 3little children aged 3 and under alone whilst the parents wine and dine elsewhere is not neglect is beyond me. The celebrities who condone this action should be ashamed of themselves, IMO.

Zodiac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Zodiac said...

Found these links on 3 A's. Just started to watch the first one. Listen to M. Brunt's comment re Chav family not looking after their children properly, see how CM stops a reporter and be prepared the McC's kiss babies on their Political Campaign..sorry search for their missing child.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epZEpwVXgyw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epZEpwVXgyw&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEaDIhYABIg&NR=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPKn44DN9EM&feature=related

Joe said...

Even if the truth of this case is never revealed the Tapas 9 have a lot to answer for and their secrecy. The lack of cooperation and complete openness stands out for me. No 2 people on their own could pull off such scam for 14 months, they would not have the confidence, know how or resources, and if it was just the 2, they would have laid low saying nothing
instead of adapting a high profile status when they are suspects that have never fully cooperated, leaves me might suspicious.

By the sheer scale of this case in terms of the fund ,the PR, the sanctioned PT exodus after the conferring of Arguido status, the orchestrated lack of cooperation, the non intervention of the UK press and media makes me feel that it is an official cover up and given enough time the case will be made to fade.

mariana said...

Hi All

Hi Viv
Another comprehensive article. Such an informative precis. I THANK YOU.

Hi Nancy
Thanks for the HELLO update. Bloody hell, there they go again. What about their holiday?


Well, guys, the police are busy monitoring their movements, in case they disappear and we need to use the amber alert to find them.

marga said...

Viv,
thanks for this excellent article.
It is always good to read sth like this so that we everyone doesn't forget how responsible parents shall behave toward their children.Furthermore we all have the duty to denounce possible situations of neglect.

marga said...

please forget the *we in my previous post.

I agree with the posters who say all this saga was previously planned.

All these people involved in this case are weird and use words and sentences bring suspicion.

I'll paste sth I said yesterday here about aunt Phil's statement:
_______________

The following sentence is weird:

"It is not an option to lose Madeleine. We have to find her. She's an integral member of our family. We need her".

"It is not an option to lose Madeleine". ????

What the hell did she want to say with this?

These people seem to have come from a fiction film...

Sunday, 8 June 2008 08:09:00 o'clock BST

mariana said...

Hi Marga
Philomena has also said this little beauty regarding the reward money:"It needs only one greedy, unscrupulous character to come forward".

marga said...

Hya Mariana,

do you know something?
I can't wait to see the files to be made public.
Oh my, it will be explosive..

marga said...

Mandarinn,

beijinhos

nancy said...

Mariana -

I think if one greedy unscrupulous characters was going to come forward he would have done so by now!! With that huge reward on offer it would have had many coming out of the woodwork to hunt Madeleine down. Look at all the false sightings so far - all having an eye for the main chance!

Marga -

Madeleine is an integral part of our family - sounds like she's describing a piece of jig saw puzzle rather than a treasured little girl. That family must be renowned by now for being masters of the understatement!

Joe -

It will certainly be allowed to fade of some people get their way as you so rightly say, but hopefully the PJ's and the judiciary in Portugal know a lot more than any of could imagine (this 10th tapa for instance and the mobile phone calls) and are just waiting for the exact moment to pounce!

Rat -

I see you are a moderator on the 3A's now! I always enjoy looking on there. I see Big L is still posting - bless him!

I think having read lots of the forums on there that the favourite theory is unfortunately that Madeleine is no longer with us, but quite a few also think that she is still out there and a huge scam has gone on!

It must be the biggest mystery of this century because of the different theories that keep surfacing and all the different people actually involved in it.

Zodiac -

Thanks for those links - I'll take a look later.

Viv -

Having looked at that link - these are characteristics I would say stand out for me:

1. Pathalogical lying
2. Shallow emotions
3..Unable to feel guilt or remorse

Putting on a happy face knowing your coffers are being filled to the brim by people daft enough to believe everything you say could be another one!!

off for lunch now - see you all later! Nx

bath theory said...

Thanks Viv
I can confirm that emotional abuse and neglect have an immnse impact on not just the individual child but the children they come into contact with. In other words there is a huge knock on effect.

Many Many thanks for this article. It highlights a much hidden area. Hidden because many in charge especially the old fashioned type of Headteachers and Social service departments dont want to believe.

Well nor do we but if it is staring you in the face then one must act camly and steadily and follow it through towards investigation.

For example, who would not want to investigate the possibility that a 3yr old girl was being abused ?

Joe said...

Hi Nancy,

Nice to talk to you. There are those who would love the whole thing to go away now, having gained fame and fortune and celebrity status.

If all this was planned as some people suggest do they mean the actions ie the fund, PR etc, just after the disappearance or before any disappearance took place?

I think the whole campaign from the moment of disappearance has had the smell of official spin on it and the PJ were/are not prepared to be the fall guys or PT to have its reputation sullied in the name of a diplomatic incident. In time though IMO pressure may be brought to bear on the PJ/Prosecutors office to back off. It is beyond belief that if there is a 10th Tapas that he has not been identified in this day and age. The press if it was alive would be fighting in the streets to get a scoop on the id of this guy. Instead nothing. Orchestrated silence instead. It is a very murky affair in my view with many players and big money, where the truth about a small child is not important.

nancy said...

Hi Joe -

I've just come back on and seen your post.

I think that there are various theories over what happened that night, but I think the Portuguese Justicia, as I see it, are looking at what was being discussed on Gerry's mobile from from 27th April up to the 3rd May, which seems to indicate that they think something may have been planned before Madeleine disappeared.

The fact that everything happened so quickly - the Madeleine Fund set up, the media in on it even before the Police, etc, certainly makes everything look preplanned.

The truth is they have to look at all avenues of what might or could have happened, from a pre -arranged kidnapping to Madeleine being overdosed. They certainly seemed to have ruled out an abductor getting into the apartment and taking Madeleine. They also have to take the forensic evidence in to account.

So all in all, it's one huge headache for the Portuguese. And I agree with you that it certainly seems to have been a huge cover up to save someone in the hierarchy from the high jump!!

I hope we will find out the truth before the Portuguese Justicia take their annual holiday which I believe is the whole of August, according to what I read on the 3A's.

nancy said...

I've just been reading an interesting article on the 3A's by Ironside - someone whose views I really respect.

Part of his post is regarding the PJ's wanting some of M's saliva from her toothbrush, but the McCanns said it had been lost. A likely story!

Another poster DCB - always put this at the end of his/her posts which just shows how shallow the McCanns really are:

Gerry said in one of his blogs:

"On Saturday we asked the Portuguese Prosecutors if they had any objection to us coming back to the UK. We had ssured them that we would continue to co-operate fully with the investigtion and of course would return as requested and for our own emotional reasons"!

What happened to change your minds then Kate and Gerry? A fit of the collywobbles no doubt!!

viv said...

Hi Joe

Do you not think it more likely that Gerry used his contacts to get to speak directly with Gordon Brown, who maybe got duped by his glib superficial charm into suggesting he would help them.

The fact is as soon as Mr Brown was briefed the McCanns were involved he cut off all ties with them. I recall several months ago, McCanns, lawyers, wealthy backers wanted to make a presentation to Gordon Brown of their evidence for the defence which got roundly refused. It is not reasonable to suggest that Mr Brown or anyone in an official capacity from the government would wish to be or indeed is, involved with Kate and Gerry McCann and the death of their little girl.

All people abroad who get into trouble with the criminal law are entitled to consular and foreign office assistance and that is what Kate and Gerry got. There is nothing unusual or sinister about that. It also pays to remember the more intelligent people, the more they know and will pursue their rights. We can rely on Gerry McCann to do so. He would have persuaded the government he needed assistance to manage the press and this was offered as part of consular services to the couple. There is a bad smell though around Clarence Mitchell leaving his government post to work directly for the McCanns and certainly, I would not trust him further than I could throw him, which is no distance at all, given a bad back!

I think it may turn out that other people who had involvement but then left their posts like Sheree Dodd may turn out to be prosecution witnesses and this is why.

Viv x

docmac said...

Hi Viv and all

Thank you for highlighting this issue with a truly excellent article. I'm really sorry that I can't spend some time here discussing this issue as I have no time at the moment. Perhaps this is for the best as a lot of he stuff that I would have to say about this matter would upset certain people almost as much as if I were to say outright that Kate McCann killed her daughter.

I look forward to reading the comments much, much later on.

viv said...

Hiya Nancy

I would add a few more to your list of characteristics that Gerry McCann most certainly displays:

Glibness and Superficial Charm



Glib superficial charm - remember the way Jez Wilkins partner described him in The Guardian article, basically loud and full of fun, but there are very much two sides to Gerry McCann. When he is being pleasant it is an act. We have seen it time and time again. The original interview with Jane Hill for BBC, charming and polite the whole way through, but cursing and swearing the moment he wrongly thought the camera stopped and he did a very similar thing in the Antennae 3 interview..don't say anthing until they turn the mics off. We have also seen the nasty side of him when asked whether he knew Murat and when he even bounced off a television set. Really to exemplify the two faces of Gerry McCann I use those two pictures on the right, one at the Whitehouse when he genuinely thought he got his way and then the look of pure rage when he began to realise he had not. Thus his charm is very superficial indeed and as for conning and manipulative below, I am afraid he does see Madeleine as an instrument to be used, to make him feel rich and important. Such people really need power and control to boost their self-esteem, money and power are what they really thrive on and they will single mindedly go about getting it. He does not recognise the rights of children to be loved and protected from harm, does he? Psychiatrics and police officers have commented how he controls Kate McCann, to such an extent that she now sounds like someone with no education at all, rather than a highly intelligent woman as she clearly was. In many photographs she gives him a look of utter disdain, even hatred. I believe she is thinking look what you got us into and you promised it would be OK. Psychopaths are also very reckless people who have a highly unrealistic ego and sense of their own infallibility.

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

viv said...

Hi Doc

I do understand what you mean, saying outright just how bad you think this is, is a brave thing to do!

but who is pulling all the strings and pressing all the buttons?


Viv x

hope4truth said...

Hi All

Some really good posts have been eating my late lunch reading you all.

I have to go now but hope to see you all later xxx

nancy said...

Viv -

Before reading that article I had never realised that a phsycopath had all those traits - most people see them as menacing, easily recognisable people, as I did, but they obviously can appear charming and helpful while working out some macabre or self serving act in their head. Sounds a bit like Gerry!!

Nx

Zodiac said...

Hi Nancy,

I read the thread by Ironside on 3 A's regarding the lost toothbrush also. I cannot remember everything on the 'What are the Chances' list by Tigger. If this is not on the list it should be added because what are the chances of the toothbrush that belonged to the supposed abducted child going missing also. Did the abductor take that also.

nancy said...

Another 'overdose' article from the 3A's
-----------------------------------
A French newspaper - 'France Soir' said that the DNA results contained fluids showing that Madeleine had swallowed enough sleeping pills to cause an overdose.

Guilhem Buttut, an investigative reporter said he had seen hard evidence about Madeleine's death in a report now in the hands of the Portuguese Prosecutors.

He also said that toxicological tests carried out on the liquids proved the little girl had ingested medicines which would have been supplied in quantities large enough to cause an overdose.

----------------------------------

It could also point to Madeleine herself getting out of bed, seeing tablets around and eating them as if they were sweets. I've heard cases like that before, although I would have though that doctors would have made very sure that nothing was left within the children's reach.

I remember myself as a child going to my Aunt's cabinet and grabbing a handful of cod liver oil tablets and being really sick afterwards!!

Could it be that Kate and Gerry found Madeleine in a coma after eating something she thought were sweets?

Just another theory to add to all the rest!

Abduction inside or outside of the apartment; accident; overdose; violent reaction over the shame of being brought back from Chaplins because of Madeleine crying; arranged kidnapping; - one of them has to be right!

Off for a walk now - see you all later!

nancy said...

Zodiac -

You are absolutely right - a very important point. Ironside also talks about the PJ's wanting Madeleine's pillow case for the saliva evidence, as well as the toothbrush, because obviously if she had been overdosed it would show in the saliver test.

viv said...

Hiya Nancy

Personally I think sleeping pills are highly unlikely because on top of all the alcohol Kate and Gerry McCann were drinking they would have been downright dangerous for them to take. Alcohol is also a depressant so having consumed that much they would just fall asleep when they wanted to anyway. In fact lots of people self medicate insomnia with alcohol.

There were reports that a syringe was found but obviously I do not know whether this is true, but I have often thought what was it at bedtime that caused her to run away and try and hide from them. If you remember also in the early days there were many reports surfacing that Kate was aggressive and ill tempered with the children, that is on the rare occasions she was actually looking after them which was only in between 5.30 when they came out of creche and bedtime plus a lunch break.

Going out for a nice meal cuz way too hot to cook.

Back laters.

Viv x

Cláudia said...

You can't make this up...
---------------------------------

Re: BIG BROTHER!!!!!!
by clairesy Today at 2:43 pm

Mum21 wrote:
You have to be joking...it's a load of old rubbish! And as for talking about the anti's and pro's appearing...even if said in a joke....is of very bad taste.
The main concern of this forum is to support the McCann family. It is NOT a competition between the Anti's and Pro's. Or even a platform to debate bubbles.... whoever she may be.

Awwww such a shame you don't like big bro ...wonder why you came to read a thread about the show if you find it such a load of rubbish???
As for this being posted on a forum set up to support madeleine and her family i think you will find its actual posted on a separate thread which reads....i shall paste it for you...........

""""Miscellaneous Discussion Topics
Any other discussion topics that do not fit into the other categories belong here - films, books, etc."""

The bit about putting antis and pros into the house together would not be for the purpose of some deluded competition.It would be solely for the opportunity to be face to face with some people who have not only given personal attacks at the mccanns but also at my self and my friends.
You can read about bubbles by going to the public blog and going to a thread call daily rants of bubbles.

Sorry you don't approve of this thread!!!!!! but as i said its not on the madeleine section as that is for discussion on madeleine mccann.It isn't int he news section either as thats for topics in the news.....its here in the miscellaneous section ...where people talk about what ever it is they feel deserves a plot. such as birthdays, ingrowing, toenails, warts, piles, big bro etc etc...im sure you could start one up for corrie if you wanted.If you like that program that is.If i have done wrong by opening this thread then if theres a mod around please let me know so Im made aware of it XXXXXX

speak soon maybe!!
XXXXX


for every one else reading this thread..tonights gonna be fireworks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.cant wait

Cláudia said...

Thanks for this thread, Viv.
It's incredibly sad. But very important.
Have a nice meal.

dylan said...

Hiya Nancy, and others.

Hope you enjoyed your walk.

I concur with your sedative/sleeping pill theory because it's what I've thought for a long while.

Firstly, because of the findings of Eddy and Keela, I think an accident followed. Initially I thought about falling down the steps the same as was conjectured by the PJ, but then I read docmac's reaction to that, that the type of blood spray involved could not have come from a fall.

I tend towards agreeing with Viv that it's unlikely Kate and Gerry had sleeping pills for themselves but wonder if it is possible that Maddie got access, whilst left alone, to sedatives that were meant for her? Medically, I don't know how sound this is, but maybe she was found unconscious and couldn't be revived and what happened wrt the blood pattern was connected to attempts to revive her?

Just my thoughts. Docmac will most likely correct me!

As far as "they've taken her" is concerned, I have never been able to grasp any of the theories that suggest it was planned. That doesn't seem conceivable to me. However, if there was a plan to remove the body following an accidental overdose & death, it is plausible that this was a slip of the tongue because Kate was aware of those that had been instructed to remove it. Also, If Kate was still expecting Madeleine to be there for her to have the opportunity to say goodbye, Kate's alarm and surprise would not have needed to be acted out and the slip of the tongue was through shock.

Unfortunately, I don't believe little Madeleine is alive. As for the rest, ROB is right. This is the biggest, most unfortunate mystery that has haunted people all over the world, for a long, long time and I just don't know what to believe anymore either.

Viv, well done for the child abuse article. Thought provoking and leaves no room for doubt, IMHO.

xx

atardi said...

Viv,

Please keep writing about child abuse.

Maybe some people some day may realize that leaving your kids alone night after night to have dinner with friends is equal to child neglect and is child abuse!

docmac said...

Hi Dyl

I'm not going to correct you at all. I disagree only with the word 'accident'. Sweep, sweep, sweep.

atardi said...

Hi Dylan,

How are the examens going?

I think everyone here is discussing the case and have their own opinion.

I have been reading also about injection needle with samples of sedatives.

And that's nice about this blog.

We all want to know about what happened to Madeleine and why her parents didn't even care to go to Portugal for a reconstruction.

bath theory said...

Viv
Just want to say brilliant thread again...brilliant, brilliant and brilliant. I realy like this sort of stuff as it makes people think and more impoortantly understand how common abuse is across all social groupings.

As I mentioned before the borough's child protection officers came to our school to chat to us and informed us (last autumn term) that a Doctor in the local hospital had recently been prosecuted and imprisoned for abusing his children.

I repeat for those who think the McCanns could never possibly have done this due to their profession ...'DOCTOR'

Indeed, many who work in caring professions are doing so to cover up their dark side and to justify to the world and themselves how truly wonderful they are (ie in my opinion they know they are not and thus they work in a caring job to use it as a cover)

So those who 'pretend' these things do not and can not happen are trying to deny facts of the world at large.

Evasion, denials and such like are seen very clearly by many who share our values as merely words that are cheap. They fool people who are too busy to care but not those like us who are busy but who care enough to pause and probe because of our value system.

I will never cease from having to justify having the presence of mind to care about a 3 yr old girl that vanished from the face of this earth and to question accordingly.

There is only one race, the human race.

JUSTICE FOR INTEGRITY + FIGHT AGAINST BIGOTRY.

WE SHALL OVERCOME

dylan said...

Docmac - should have seen that coming ;-)

Atardi, thanks. Exams finished in April and we still have no results!! I think they went ok though, will see soon enough! Currently working on comparing ocean data from Antarctica with what the models say the ocean should be doing but I'll need to start writing - up soon before I think I have loads of time left and realise I have run out!!!

It is a nice thing about this blog, though. We have differing theories based on details that we remember and depending how we view them. It's good that at the end of the day all of us remember why we are here and care very much that justice is done for Madeleine. (bet that one gets a slating by ST :)

Bath Theory's justice for integrity
etc is just perfect & we all know where the bigotry came from don't we?!!

xx

dylan said...

Oops, meant to say "before I realise I have run out of it" [time] !

xx

marga said...

I wonder what might be the interest of different churches to have Mitchel speaking on the Mc Canns in their annual conference?!

Is it just me? Do you find it normal?

They are using everyone they can. From politicians to tycoons, EU mps, priests/churches...


http://www.churchesmediacouncil.org.uk/conference/programme/

marga said...

forgot to add: footballers

Well. if Britain was in the EU championship, they would also try to infiltrate there too...

BTW

Atardi/Doc

I'm watching Holland playing...
Good luck:-)

marga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
atardi said...

Marga,

Have you seen the goal?

docmac said...

Nederland 1-0!

dylan said...

Hi Marga,

Not normal at all. Who do they think they are?? Next they will be canonised and we'll be seeing their images imortalised on stained glass windows up and down the country!!

How are you? xx

docmac said...

Bring it on!!!!!!! 2-0!

docmac said...

Sorry, hello Marga and Atardi. I'm watching the game and just typing when something happens. Not only on this blog either. I did not even notice you :-( I will move to the TV now and watch it there.

dylan said...

How rude docmac!! But Go Holland anyway! Son is watching it - should get my telly back soon :)))

Marga, I think they already have a string of footballers that have promised their support! xx

atardi said...

Docmac and Marga,

I didn't expect this from "Oranje".

nancy said...

Viv -

Yes, you are right of course, they wouldn't need to take sleeping pills after drinking and eating all night! I suppose there could have been some other medication around for Madeleine to get her hands on though! As I said before though, I would have thought doctors would keep medication well out of the way with three tiny children about.

I keep coming back to the forensic evidence, where it does apear more likely that when the McCanns got back from Chaplins (brought back under protest no doubt and having had a bit too much to drink), either Gerry or Kate got angry with Madeleine and who knows then what could have followed?

Just why did Kate go rushing off to the tapas bar before looking around the immediate neighbourhood straight away to see if Madeleine was nearby? The complete opposite of what most parents would do. Instead it seems she immediately thought she had been taken. It doesn't make any sense at all. An abduction is something that you would think about when you had searched all other avenues open to you.
********************************
Lucky you by the way having good weather in the UK - enjoy!!!

Here in the Costa Blanca it is cool, wet weather - not at all how it is normally in June. It's warmer today in Scotland than it is here would you believe?

Ecolab said...

Marga hi

Kate and Gerry McCann have NOT been abused by the media. How can an abuser be abused?

No they are medialecherous.

Madeleine was abused, not her parents.



Churches media council conference
Day 3 - Wednesday 11th June
12:00
"The McCanns and the Media - The Inside Story
Kate and Gerry McCann have used the media in their search for their daughter, Madeleine, and they have been abused by the media. What has their experience of the media been like, and what does it teach us. The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell - himself a former BBC journalist - joins us to tell the story of the year from his unique perspective."


*Justice for Maddie and all abused children*

hope4truth said...

atardi

I forgot Holland were also better than England I have been supporting Portugal but obviously tonight I am supporting Holland I am not sure what I will do if Holland and Portugal are in the final well done on 2 goals is your daughter watching???

Are there any other countrys I should be supporting dont want to leave anyone out xxxx

marga said...

Sorry guys,

the first goal was great but not a legal one. He was offside!!!

I rather prefer the second.

But the Oranges are playing fantasticly!

nancy said...

Hi Dylan -

Thanks for your well thought out post - it's always good to hear what everyone else has to say about what could have happened! None of us know for certain at this stage and it's very frustrating to say the least!

All I know is a three year old child has disappeared through the McCanns utter selfishness and how people can support them beggars belief.

I don't think Madeleine will ever be found alive - remembering what Gerry said so coldly - "find the body and prove it"!! He wouldn't have said that if he thought she could be found.

If by chance Madeleine is alive I'm sure it will be as a result of a prearranged kidnapping for whatever reason the McCanns had, including maybe to cover a huge scam, but that is only another theory and nothing is proven yet.

What I am certain about is that there was no 'chance abductor' passing by who was fortunate enough to stumble across children sleeping without their parents around! Too much of a coincidence and some of his DNA would be left in the bedroom without a shadow of a doubt.

That is what the McCanns supposedly think but all evidence flies in the face of that theory!

Enjoy the rest of the evening one and all. Off to catch up with other things now.

Nx

nancy said...

Docmac -

Before I go, reading Ironside's latest blog today on the 3A's called 'Reasons...etc', he mentioned that he would like your advice about something. I don't know if you've seen it.

Nx

marga said...

Atardi,

some years ago I was in Maastricht and boughtate there a delicious cheese called Amesterdamer.

Do you have this in the area where you live, too? I looked for it in Germany but couldn't find it again.

viv said...

Hi Nancy

Again I think it is a question of accepting what the police have said, that is the danger time for Madeleine that they are specifically interested in, is between 6 and 8 pm on 3 May.

Whilst it does seem likely there was an incident, quite probably involving domestic violence on Kate on 2 May, I therefore do not believe this is when Madeleine got hurt. The fact that Kate got hurt seems clear from the extensive grab marks and bruising we saw to her arms, especially the left one. I believe Gerry, was angry in a drunken rage, that Kate was not controlling "her" children. I believe he has an old fashioned attitude that it is his duty to play as it suits him, and Kate's duty to be responsible for care of the children (such as it was). His idea of care in this instance is keeping them under control when they go out without interfering with his fun. I feel Kate may then have been induced to oversedate Madeleine the following night to make quite certain this did not happen again. In the hire car it is reported they found large quantity of Madeleine's hair. If this is right I have read that just one human hair, can be cut up into several pieces and analysed for the presence of sedative medication. I am quite convinced the twins were also heavily sedated, given what we have heard from police, together of course with Gerry's very obviously guilty reaction to questioning/Kate not really wanting to offer any comment - she immediately looked to him - he is the one perceived to have the glib superficial charm and the quick and devious tongue. Whether the twins were sedated because something terrible happened to Madeleine or whether it was all three to prevent them waking up again I am not entirely sure. Whilst I believe it is more likely Gerry induced Kate to oversedate Madeleine, I do not rule out that he was also violent to Madeleine. The smallest traces of dried blood were found in the hire car.

There is simply no chance that Madeleine could have got up and had an accident after 8 pm when they left the children. For one they would not have had time to remove the body but overwhelmingly if the body had not been in that apartment for at least two hours the dog would not have been able to pick up cadaver scent and it very plainly did in a number of areas and items - behind the sofa, on the key fob, on cuddle cat, on Kate's jeans and top, in the hire car - here, I agree with Claudia, this does not mean the body itself was in there, more likely paraphenalia to do with the death they wanted to dispose of.

atardi said...

Hey Hope,

Yes everybody is watching except the little one. My neighbour put his tv in his garden, I can see them, but somebody must be at home if you have a child sleeping.

I support Portugal too because we have a lot of Portuguese people living in the country whre I come from.

And I support Italy when Italy is playing against other teams.

After the second goal my sister in law called from Rome telling that her husband and son were crying....

hope4truth said...

Atardi

How wonderful to have a TV out in your neighbours garden I bet it is very noisy where you are at the moment especialy as you have just scored again.

Your poor sister in law consoling to men it is very exciting xxx

atardi said...

Marga,

Can't believe it.

You mean Old Amsterdam?

Cláudia said...

Jesus Christ, Holland rocked. What a game and what a performance. They made Italy look like amateurs, which they certainly aren't.

viv said...

Hey guys

is there some football on the telly then:-)))

Cláudia said...

Viv, not anymore! :-)
I know you don't like football. But I haven't seen a national team play so well for quite some time. :-)
You got mail!
Did you enjoy your meal?

docmac said...

Holland rocked Claudia, you're right! My favourites to win the thing.

No, Viv. What are you on?

Nancy, I have not read 3A for a couple of days now. What is the question?

Cláudia said...

Doc, yes, they did. I was supporting Holland against Italy. And I hope Portugal manages to avoid them if we go through to the next phase.

ta ra said...

Hiya Viv,

Yes, neglect is a form of child abuse, and thank you for highlighting this. It is a very serious criminal offence, and a serious warning sign of other motives and actions, possibly life threatening to a child.

As regards one English girl called Madeleine, these are quiet and cynical times, I think. Time for responsible adults to question, and await the due process of law; the laws we must defend in order to protect children, in my opinion.

Anyone who has lied about Madeleine Beth McCann can bet on this: the law will judge you, and if your lawyers are very clever, then 'Father Ted' and 'Father Jack's' law applies: feck off. You will know no peace in this life. That is justice for Madeleine, and every neglected child, however paltry it may be in this life.

Child neglect is a very serious crime, and the easiest to prove when eyes are wide open.

Hi Big_L and Hopefortruth. Keep beating that drum.

atardi said...

Cláudia and Docmac,

This was a big surprise for Holland.
Winning from the WC with an "unexperienced" team.

Let's wait and see.

Viv,

Sorry for the football thing.

Cláudia, maybe you can set a football thread on Viv's blog?

viv said...

Hi Leigh

Thanks for highlighting that serious neglect that the McCanns indulged in, together with Gerry and Kate's attempts to justify and excuse it, is not only a very serious offence but clearly indicative, as a risk factor that more serious abuse may be taking place.

We should never forget that 80 per cent of child abusers are the parents. Madeleine and her brother and sister were drugged and left alone, not just once, for a few minutes to rush over the shop but wilfully and deliberately night after night and their friends confirm they never even bothered to check to see if they were OK.. that must warrant a hefty custodial sentence no matter what else they did. We all need to be firmly against this and the stand taken by the "Pro McCanns" this was just and abherration, a mistake, the consequences of which they will have to suffer is insufferable. What of little Madeleine and what of all the other parents who would follow their sickening lead. What of little Sean, he is still alive to remember he and Maddie crying their eyes up with no mom and dad. It is just like that sad little boy in his cot on the NSPCC advert, what gives these people the right to excuse such disgusting behaviour? They appal me.

Viv x

hope4truth said...

Hello Ta Ra

I will keep banging on about neglect until people stop neglecting their children and stop making excuses for it.

DO I know you ???

ta ra said...

Viv,
I watch over you because you watch over others.

The NSPCC, the UKs oldest charitable child protection agency, has seen decades of hard work undone because of the McCanns' antics.

Tsk. Not right. Not going to be overlooked or excused.

Child neglect is often an early warning sign of other motives, and actions, possibly life threatening to the child.

You know what I'm saying. I understand what you're saying.

docmac said...

Atardi it was not a surprise to me at all. Best side in Europe by a long way IMO.

Hello Leigh. I agree 100%. Anyone who has lied about Madeleine deserves what's coming to them.

I'm just going to watch Schweinsteiger, Podolski and Lahm in a little highlights package of Germany's game. I think I'll give Rafa a call thereafter.

Cláudia said...

Atardi, I would like to live to get old! lololololol

ta ra said...

Hopefortruth,
I'm glad you and Big_L bang on about child neglect, the silent killer in our midst.

The United Nations scolds us in the UK for having the most unhappy children in the Western world.

Who's listening? Who cares? The politicians don't. Social services commit the same mistakes, year after year. Just see Victoria Climbie's mother's comments a fortnight ago.

When will things change? When will child neglect as an early warning sign be taken seriously?

Hopefortruth, we know that Hopeforyou (Stella) is driven to take action; stir up public debate; demand change.

I'm glad to see you contacted Big_L. He marches to the same drum as you, and me.

If there are charges beyond child neglect, so be it. But child neglect on its own is bad enough, worthy of our concern, I think.

BTW, hopefortruth, you DO know me, as I know you, by our words, and our actions.
x

viv said...

Hi again Leigh and thanks for watching over me:-)))

IN 65 per cent of serious child abuse cases it is found the parents also neglected the children. This is the point I have always made, the McCanns demonstrated they have the propensity to do exactly what the Portuguese police accuse them of doing and I believe that with the help of Eddie and Keela British Police together with intercepted phone/email they know exactly what this dreadful couple did. Poor little Madeleine is dead, she is another terrible and tragic statistic and worldwide British parents add so much to those terrible statistics of misery and suffering to innocent little children who are helpless and defenceless, they just need love and protection. I see no sign of love coming from Kate and Gerry McCann. I saw sheer delight, at the money they were making by trademarking their dead child, they are truly wicked.

Viv x

hope4truth said...

Ta Ra

I hope one day the whole sorry story of what this group of people comes to light and the Truth of just how little they each thought of their children on that very sad holiday.

Newspapers need to report the facts and not what the neglectors pr man tells them to print.

Children first each and every time adults can take care of themselves.

Atardi

Congrats to Holland..

Viv

Another much needed thread thank you..

To everyone else and those included Goodnight see you all again tomorrow xxx

hope4truth said...

Ta Ra

I am so slow tonight should have know it was you with your Tsk...

Take care xxx

atardi said...

Hope,

See you tomorrow.

atardi said...

Cláudia,

You mean about the cheese?

viv said...

Hiya Hope,

it is an important thread, and I think it will pay us to remember that if the McCanns are only charged for their neglect this is not a failure of justice, it is the law doing its best to bring wicked parents to justice, parents who did their best to destroy evidence, even their beautiful little girl, Madeleine.

I content myself in the knowledge that yes, they denied her a decent burial, but that matters not to them, what matters is she is with people who love and care about all little children, Portuguese people. Goncalo Amaral fought for justice for this little girl, he is a lovely man.

Viv x

ta ra said...

Hopefortruth,

You wrote: "Children first each and every time adults can take care of themselves."

I agree, but we are in the minority.

It's a long road ahead, hopefortruth.

Adults have power; children have nothing except what adults choose to give them.

Viv is right: there is evil in this world.

How many adults will forsake their own ego and comfort to resist evil, and demand justice for children, the voteless, the voiceless, the moneyless?

Not many will do that. It's inconvenient; it's an unpopular cause.

Night night, Hope. Please do tell Big_L, we never left this cause, although we must take different paths.
x

viv said...

Thanks Leigh :-)))

Cláudia said...

Atardi, I mean putting up a thread about football! :-)

viv said...

Claudia Hun,

~Sometimes this case makes me upset, but you always make me smile again.

Now you know what you can do with your football thread dont you:-)))

Well alright, it has got so nice on this blog I forgot how to delete!

Viv x

ta ra said...

Viv,
Facts, by definition, do not lie, as you know. Neglect is a precursor to worse crimes. It is what it is.

Personally, I have zero tolerance for neglect because it is an early warning sign.

However, I am also concerned with the issue of justice for the wrongdoer as well as the victim.

Justice is complex. You know what I'm really saying here. We agree in a roundabout way.

I pray that certain people are on 'suicide watch'. What happens when sociopaths are cornered?

Meanwhile, the 3As has a timely thread from someone called 'emma' highlighting BKs interest in privatising the NHS. Oh, really?!!! No surprise there, then. Worth reading, though ;-)

viv said...

Hiya Leigh

It is not within either my nature or training to seek to speak out in the course of justice.

But perhaps this case is truly exceptional given the extraordinary media circus from Team McCann. It is also extremely important for the safety of all children. That justifies my stand and it will not alter.

I take your point re the reaction of sociopaths when cornered, but that would put them in no different position to the one they put Madeleine in. They always had choices, she never did.

I do not suppose Kate McCann ever reads this blog, but just in case she did I repeatedly appealed to her to take the right path, get herself an independant solicitor and face the truth. She has not chosen that path, I therefore lost sympathy with her, the more so, each and every time I saw her on TV, in the papers, suing the Daily Express, going to Brussels, she chose that path, she must pay the penalty which will inevitably be much harsher than had she chosen the right path. She knows that.

Viv x

Cláudia said...

Viv, as I told Atardi I would like to live enough to get old so no football thread at all! :-)

ta ra said...

Viv,
Sad, but true, so true.

Kate Healy is a McCann by marriage only. She is a mother to 3 children; one of them is dead in all probability.

I remember when we first posted on this issue on the DE, urging Kate to seek independent legal advice, but you must know how this goes: shelters are full of subjugated women; many of them previously strong women, now weakened by the drip drip drip of being demeaned.

viv said...

Hi Leigh

I have met so many of those subjugated women, mostly of far lower intellect than Kate McCann. Their ability to fight back does ebb away, but still those women had the strength to come and see me to protect themselves and their children.

It is no use seeking to disassociate her with the McCann family, she is part of a terrible and very destructive relationship.

Well yes Claudia, I could easy jump on Easyjet at East Midlands Airport which is not so far from mex

ta ra said...

Viv,
I know my views on this subject are eccentric. Sometimes, I sound as hard as concrete; sometimes as limp as wet spaghetti.

My central point is this: neglect of Madeleine, Sean and Amelie has put them all at 'risk' of 'harm', and that is a criminal offence in the UK, and much of the world.

I have never doubted that irresponsible adults would be in court for that, whatever else they might be suspected of, and that is for the law to decide.

Child neglect is a serious offence. I rest my case, M'Lady, and I trust the due process of law to pursue other charges according to the evidence. If that fails, then a harsher court awaits: the court of public opinion and the court of moral judgment; the eternal soul.

Night night. Nice to see you. Take care.

'Murder' is for court to decide, not for us to decide, in my opinion. Just my opinion. No offence intended.

Joe said...

I think that KM is a tough woman and determined. I do not accept that she is subjugated. As a GP she has/had choices and is not solely dependent upon a husband to totally support her like many poor women are. She was/is in a position of power and would not suffer or endure IMO an abusive relationship. So any choices she made were hers IMO as much as anybody elses.

Cláudia said...

Viv, could you bring Kate and gerry with you? -)

viv said...

Hi Leigh

Just a short one, murder is one of the issues, and clearly one the PJ are considering. This blog is to discuss the issues and raises very interesting points of view. Some very different and this good. We could not move on and have a proper consideration of the issues if we all just agreed. People politely listen and consider other peoples views and as a result their views may be better informed and change over time, we all learn from each other, I have always wanted to encourage this. My dear friend Claudia does not agree with Doc and I, that is about freedom of choice, freedom of speech the right to have an opinion. I think those are fine principles and long may they continue. If we have to keep having the McCanns perverse version of events, inevitably we will consider our own.


Nite Nite and good to see you again.

Viv x

viv said...

Claudia

Maybe I am a lot like Leigh described, sometimes soft and sentimental, at others tough and determined. But am I tough enough to bring Kate and Gerry with me, I just do not think that man would like me too much or willingly run along when I brusquely said, now come on Gerry, time to face the music old chap x

ta ra said...

Honest Joe,

You might be surprised to see how many intelligent, and superficially 'powerful' women and men are subjugated by bullies.

Happens every day, everywhere. Check out business websites if you disbelieve me.

Just one example: the Bank of England, 'independent', but 'told off' by GB.

By the way, why did Tony Blair go to war? Ah, yes. Bullied/schmoozing the U.S. 100 UK servicemen have died for that.

Just a thought.

ta ra said...

Viv,
Free speech. Excellent, in my humble opinion. The debate goes on.
x

viv said...

Nite all

Popping out for a ride down the lanes to get my own particular fix I ran out of, fags

Once again a great blog and thanks to you all. (esp re the football:-)) love it)

xxxxxxx

Joe said...

ta ra,

Hi Leigh,

I do not for one minute dispute your opinion, its just in KM case I am not convinced, I may be totally wrong of course. There are bullies everywhere without ever lifting a finger in violence. I think she is tougher than GM but not so bombastic. He is arrogant and loves attention like the youngest in the family often does, used to getting their own way.

ta ra said...

Night All.
Weary now.
Honest Joe, I hope you are not offended by what I wrote. I support our troops, regardless of politics. They are there because our politics wish it so; and they are brave women and men, protecting our right to choose. Pity we don't protect them when they come home; that's all I'm getting at.

Joe said...

ta ra,

Not at all, I welcome honest opinion.

ta ra said...

Viv!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quit the ciggies b4 they quit you x

Honest Joe,
Ta for understanding. I agree with you, as it happens. We could both be wrong; both be right.

Hey ho. This inquiry moves on no matter what any of us think, and I'm glad for that.

Night night, Joe. Rest well.

ta ra said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe said...

ta ra,

Goodnight to you and talk to you soon.

Cláudia said...

Viv, I also Think Gerry wouldn't like you. :-(

viv said...

Hiya Claudia

I always remember a very violent police officer, threatening me right outside the court...he was very angry, he had to move out the police house, so difficult to explain to his bosses.

It never stopped me being on the side of the good people, the victims, the survivors x

docmac said...

BB update from the other side if anyone needs it:

"well said i couldnt have put that any better myself..i could not believe the manners of this girl i wanted to slap her her mouth how rude is she !! did her parents not teach her any manners

i would just hate to hear one of my kids talk to anybody like that exspecialy someone with a disability."



i am expecialy grateful to the poster who could not put it any better herself i couldnt bare to go to bed not knowing wot happened coz my kid was bothering me i wanted to slap his his mouth too!! thanks to you..i can sleep fine now i would also hate my kids to talk like that.


Oh joy. Goodnight to anyone still about.

Cláudia said...

Vin and Doc, you always make me smile.
Boa noite, queridos amigos.
xxxx

viv said...

Hiya Doc

Not sure I entirely get the gist of that but being abusive towards people with disabilities is one of their star turns isn't it. A partially sighted woman on the DE, a woman with agoraphobia, and me and my ankles. Then there was the racism. They sell themselves everytime don't they!

Viv x

viv said...

Not to mention sitting blogging and laughing about her little boy, eating dog muck/good and of course giving a kid a good smack round the gob. No wonder people dont like them!

Viv x

viv said...

Boa Noite

querida amiga

Dorme bem

Viv xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Cláudia said...

A bit of entertainment before I go. Start reading at the bottom. :-)
----------------------------------

Claire
by Claire Today at 1:25 am

Claire, no this is not Bubbles or Debs. I'm Claire from Canada. If one of the mods could confirm this somehow?

All i'm saying is, I think it's unfair to open blogs to specifically flame another person when they're not here to defend themself. Personally, I think some of the things being said against Gerry and Kate are disgusting and awful. But at the same time, we don't know them from Adam. It's the same with Bubbles. We don't know if anything she says is true. So to play the same games as Bubbles is playing, is lowering ourselves down to her standards. I don't know if Bubbles knows about this site, and if she does, she's never mentioned it.

I don't look into the 3A site now because it makes me sick to see all the theories posted about what could have happened. We don't know anything about the facts other than Madeleine is missing and her parents are the accused. I've always believed Madeleine walked out of that room and met her fate with an unknown person, or, she fell somewhere and hasn't been discovered yet.

Dianeh no I haven't misjudged the site at all. I find most of these threads very interesting and I agree on a lot of things written here.

Please don't assume i'm not Claire from Canada without giving me the benefit of the doubt. If you assume everyone who joins could be Bubbles or Debs, it will cause friction amongst members and i'm sure we don't want that
Claire
Newbie




Posts : 3
Joined : 06 Jun 2008




Clairesy
by dianeh Today at 12:58 am

If this isnt Claire from Canada but is Bubbles or Deb, then it would proves once again what liars they are. But it isnt as though we actually needed any further proof.

If it is Claire from Canada, (or even if it isnt), the post will not be deleted. This is not the 3A's, where any dissenting voice is deleted. Or Skynews forum where the right of reply doesnt seem to apply to all people. Or Vile's blog, where you cant post at all if you are not of the same opinion as the blog owner.

So Claire (if it is Claire) has very much misjudged what this forum stands for.
dianeh
Learner




Posts : 190
Joined : 27 Apr 2008




Re: the daily rants of the bubbles off sky forum for your own amusment.
by clairesy Today at 12:55 am

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm very funny claire??as i haven't posted all over the web???

this is something bubbles and debs always accuses me of though.... which again is a reason i believe you to be bubbles or debs

clairesy
Rookie





Posts : 31
Joined : 03 Jun 2008
Age : 32




Claire
by dianeh Today at 12:54 am

You will probably be surprised to find that I agree with you about the constant slagging off of the anti's, and that it doesnt make us any friends.

However, the lies they spread need to be countered. It is just a pity that it denegerates into name calling etc etc. And I too am guilty of it. I do try to control myself but occasionally, something just gets to me, and I retaliate in name calling.

I have however witnessed first hand the lies that Bubbles has posted, knowing that they are indeed lies. To knowingly print lies, she is working to her own agenda, it is had nothing to do with Madeleine. As a regular on the Skynews forums, you too would have seen many of the lies.

But you are still missing the point. Bubbles is an anonymous blogger, it doesnt matter what she says about herself, all of it or none of it may be true. BUT the McCanns are real people and when Bubbles attacks them (and she does at every turn) what she says is clearly libellous. She deserves to be charged/sued for libel. And in case you are wondering, it is not possible for a blogger to libel another anonymous blogger, so Clairesy and Sian are not guilty of libel against Bubbles.

And lastly Bubbles doesnt deserve the benefit of the doubt. Bubbles has freely given away any rights to compassion or the benefit of the doubt due to her sustained and unwarranted attacks on the McCanns. The pity of it is, Clairesy and Sian's attacks on Bubbles most likely have no effect on her at all.
dianeh
Learner




Posts : 190
Joined : 27 Apr 2008




Re: the daily rants of the bubbles off sky forum for your own amusment.
by clairesy Today at 12:51 am

Claire wrote:
This thread is disgusting. Clairesy you will know me from another blog as Claire from Canada. I don't always agree with Bubbles posts, but to sit there and slam her for having agraphobia and calling her family names, is to say the least, nasty and a terrible thing to say. You are doing to Bubbles exactly what Bubbles is doing to the McCanns, vilifying her for something that isn't her fault. Agraphobia is a disorder. My mother had it for 24 years and I know first hand what a sufferer goes through. It's not just a case of 'staying indoors' at all. Maybe you should read up on it and see how your comments will affect those who suffer.

Mods, I feel this thread is way out of order. I know this post will more than likely get deleted and i'll be banned, but Bubbles isn't here to defend herself and opening a thread with the sole purpose of creating a hate campaign against one person who hasn't done anything illegal, is totally wrong.

Claire s wales, I just lost all respect for you after seeing this.

Claire from canada..or is it bubbles from 3a??

My posts on this thread as been posted and yes i have mentioned her agoraphobia becasue quite frankly she posts it all over the web herself.If she doesn't want people to know about that then maybe she shouldn't post it for all to see. And if she doesn't want people to talk about her then maybe she shouldn't talk about others...She as slated me and my family countless times on 3a and has 3-4 threads set up especially so she can abuse me calling me many many names. Racist ones about being being welsh (i wont repeat them here)...personal ones too!about being pushed from a cliff by her and run over by a steam roller etc etc (just to mention a couple)and i have not called her family names in any of my posts either??However if you would like to go to the 3a site you will find that my family(my child) as been mentioned many times by her.

If this is indeed Claire Canada(which i don't think it is as i know your posts and it sound like bubbles/debs to me)then i apologies hunnni for offending you and am deeply sorry for your mums condition.I am not a heartless person but bubbles is someone who quite frankly i have not been able to defend myself against for many months instead, before i was banned, i was faced with her and debs' attacks daily and probably still am to this day. in fact one comment i was told about was that she called me a welsh sheep sh####r etc etc and and how i went streets away and left my 18 month daughter(at the time) alone on the settee...which was a lie...she has also called me a child murder supporter and a peadophile supporter who supports child abuse as i support the mccanns.

Claire....i doubt very much this is you. I have corresponded many times on sky with you and you have never once suggested this before to me.I think this is bubbles or debs mods..please beware they are from 3a and are avid anti mccanns...CLAIRE CANADA DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THIS FORUM EXISTS infact i tried to get her on here with us many times but sky wont let me post it.

As you said Claire??you have always respected me...and ive posted worse on sky????so why the sudden attack???i think its becasue your not Claire

So bubbles nice try.One post by you...and on this thread bubbles???
clairesy
Rookie





Posts : 31
Joined : 03 Jun 2008
Age : 32




Dinaeh
by Claire Today at 12:37 am

dianeh wrote:
I think that it needs to be pointed out to you that Clairesy is attacking an anonomous blogger, where as Bubbles is attacking a real family going through a terrible tragedy. The two are not comparable. After all, you dont even know anything about Bubbles, she is probaby not even agoraphobic, but she certainly is vicious and a liar.

I myself lose no sleep over the attacks on the vicious anti's who are doing their utmost to ruin a family. When they attack the McCanns, they step into the firing line.

And you don't know Bubbles either. How do you know she's lying? Nobody does, but like the McCanns, we should give her the benefit of the doubt.

I'm actually pro, but I think comments like these affect our status. Its these types of things which make anti's hate us.

I've read Claire's comments all over the internet and it seems to me she's more for causing hate against pro's than actually getting somewhere with justice for the McCanns. And it's giving us a bad name. No need for it
Claire
Newbie




Posts : 3
Joined : 06 Jun 2008




Claire
by dianeh Today at 12:33 am

I think that it needs to be pointed out to you that Clairesy is attacking an anonomous blogger, where as Bubbles is attacking a real family going through a terrible tragedy. The two are not comparable. After all, you dont even know anything about Bubbles, she is probaby not even agoraphobic, but she certainly is vicious and a liar.

I myself lose no sleep over the attacks on the vicious anti's who are doing their utmost to ruin a family. When they attack the McCanns, they step into the firing line.
dianeh
Learner




Posts : 190
Joined : 27 Apr 2008




Shocking
by Claire Today at 12:23 am

This thread is disgusting. Clairesy you will know me from another blog as Claire from Canada. I don't always agree with Bubbles posts, but to sit there and slam her for having agraphobia and calling her family names, is to say the least, nasty and a terrible thing to say. You are doing to Bubbles exactly what Bubbles is doing to the McCanns, vilifying her for something that isn't her fault. Agraphobia is a disorder. My mother had it for 24 years and I know first hand what a sufferer goes through. It's not just a case of 'staying indoors' at all. Maybe you should read up on it and see how your comments will affect those who suffer.

Mods, I feel this thread is way out of order. I know this post will more than likely get deleted and i'll be banned, but Bubbles isn't here to defend herself and opening a thread with the sole purpose of creating a hate campaign against one person who hasn't done anything illegal, is totally wrong.

Claire s wales, I just lost all respect for you after seeing this.

docmac said...

Boa noite Claudia. You been at the viv? ;-))))

vin the italic bits are the original posters words the rest is my expecialy grateful response to the the poster for the update as i couldnt do without it !! !..

Nite x

docmac said...

Dear oh dear Claudia lolol!

I read tonight that 3A is being run by a pornographer:-)))))!!!

Gone...

viv said...

Hiya both

I know Clairesy goes out of her way to be rude and offensive and is clearly not overly bright, but she is hilariously funny to read!

DianeH: say one word about the McCanns and you had it, they are so funny!

Luv ya both
Viv x

Cláudia said...

Oh my, aren't the less thick pros ashamed to have posters like that? Gee...

viv said...

You know it is worth going to their blog for a really good laugh, listen to the resident QC!!!

I just cannot stop laughing, so now Murat murdered Maddie did he, wow! What is a "textbook watertight alibi" and do murderers pop back just to say hi, its me (would you like me to do some translations):-)))) You could not make this stuff up, unless your name was Inspector Clouseu and you really intended to make people cry with laughter:-))))))) "look solely at the evidence I state" priceless!!

murat
by sian Yesterday at 8:25 pm

A scenario of a criminal case for you to base a judgement on.

Please forget any background thoughts or information that you may have and look solely at the evidence that I state.

This is a hypothetical case based on a real case.

Lets just say that a murder has been committed and there is absolutely no forensic evidence like DNA or a murder weapon to help support a police investigation into the murder.

There are however witnesses who were present in the vicinity of the crime scene on the night in question, who each observed their surroundings and who was present in those surroundings.

The police arrest someone based on evidence not known to the public and make them an official suspect in the murder case.

This suspect gives the police a text book water tight alibi about his movements on the night in question that the murder was committed.

He said that he was at his girlfriends house all night that is a stones throw away from the murder scene, sitting in the kitchen talking and he never left the house once during the course of the evening.

His girlfriend supports this alibi with a statement under oath.

This text book water tight alibi and no forensic evidence linking this person to the crime prevents the police from charging the suspect with the murder, but the suspicion is still aimed at the person based on information that is not yet known to the public.

The police continue with their investigation into the murder and find no forensic evidence linking anyone to the murder.

They do however have witness statements from those who were in the vicinity of the crime scene on the night in question.

Out of the witnesses there are 9 who claim to have seen the suspect who is under suspicion for the murder, in the vicinity of the crime scene on the night the murder took place, even though the suspect denies this and has an alibi to back up his denial.

Out of the 9 witnesses there is a Barrister, Business woman, several nannies and friends of the victim who all state categorically under oath that they saw him there.

Either the 9 witnesses are lying or the suspect and his alibi are lying.

If you was the chief investigating officer what would you think about the suspect and his alibi?

To our knowledge there is no forensic evidence linking the suspect to the crime, what there is though is a suspect and his only witness lying about his movements on the night in question.

The question has got to be; why has the suspect in the murder enquiry lied about his movements on the night the murder took place?
sian
Newbie





Posts : 12
Joined : 04 Jun 2008
Age : 36

Cláudia said...

Darling, it's priceless.
But that poster should be cautious. Michaela isn't an arguido...

viv said...

Not only that Hun, Murat is using his mother as an alibi, not his girlfriend, I guess she just wanted to fit her into her clever scenario, somehow!

Cláudia said...

Hun, they're pathetic but useful to have a good laugh! :-)
Sleep tight!

viv said...

Nite nite again Hun

You cannot beat going to bed on a laugh, and we can count on them to provide it :-))))

Viv x

viv said...

Jane Tanner - she was just coming out and, out the back of her head, she must have seen a man with a child in a blanket, but then on Panorama, she though I will just go and do a check and as she walked straight past Gerry and Wilkins (unseen) across the top of the road there walked the man with Maddie in her pyjamas. Extraordinary!

This article particulary highlights the bizarre thoughts and comments from Kate McCann before she was named as an arguida but when she clearly knew she was under suspicion. I have also found an article about Munchaussen. It is very perverse IMO to make such comments about your baby and with a view to suggesting this created a close bond. It really sounds like she was trying to explain Madeleine was always difficult and ill. Of course British Police will have accessed the whole family's medical records. In a way Kate and Jane seem so odd and peculiar one can understand them being the best of friends, they tell the most fantastic lies and it does not seem to occur to them just how odd they are or how utterly incredible their claims are. Jane went out late and left her sick child..on Panorama OB was attending to this apparently sick child, just after she saw Maddie being abducted having come back from a check when everything was fine.. Oh dear no wonder the police say now hang on a minute, come again! Rosie tells us there are bound to be little inconsistencies with "timelines" I think it cuts just a bit deeper than that!

Maddie cried 18 hours a dayArticle By Paul Harris

September 19, 2007 12:00am

KATE McCann has told of how Madeleine cried for 18 hours a day as a baby and demanded constant attention when her twin brother and sister were born.

In an interview with a Portuguese magazine, the 39-year-old GP is reported to have discussed her daughter suffering colic and how, at 20 months old, she reacted to the birth of twins Sean and Amelie.

Mrs McCann's intention seems to have been to illustrate how she and Madeleine bonded so closely during those early years, when mother and daughter were rarely separated.

But her interview was seized on by detectives as valuable evidence in the profile they are building of her.

Officers are seeking medical records to build up a case that she was incapable of controlling four-year-old Madeleine and the strain could have provoked her into violence while on holiday in Praia da Luz.

Mrs McCann's interview with Flash! magazine was held before she and husband Gerry were named as suspects in the case and before the diary details were published. In it, she spoke openly about her experiences in being a mother to Madeleine, candidly admitting that the first six months with her were "very difficult".

Her interview emerged as the case against the pair appeared to be crumbling because of doubts over the reliability of any forensic evidence. Sources told The Daily Mail officers may research information on Munchausen's syndrome by proxy as the condition can compel parents and other adults to harm children. It has become a routine line of inquiry in child murder investigations since the case of Beverley Allitt, the nurse who killed four children in 1991.

Allitt was convicted in 1993 on 13 charges of murder and causing grievous bodily harm. Those suffering from the condition often have a high knowledge of medical practice.

In the context of this case however, the suggestion was considered by some last night as another attempt to blacken the McCann name.

Police also said they want to reinterview the McCanns' friend Jane Tanner, who told police she saw a man carrying a child in a blanket the night Madeleine disappeared.

Miss Tanner, 37, is said to have arrived late at the table on the night of May 3, saying she was tending her sick child. Now police want to re-interrogate her to confirm her exact movements and analyse how it fits in with evidence from other members of the group dubbed the "tappas nine".

The interview probably conducted by police in England will be conducted as part of a general review of the witness evidence, which is being examined by a Portuguese judge.

Meanwhile lawyers acting for the McCanns are going back through Portuguese newspapers to look for evidence of "black propaganda" planted by police.

The trawl will be overseen by Clarence Mitchell, the former Foreign Office official who was yesterday announced as the family's spokesman.

He said: "They are an ordinary family caught up in extraordinary circumstances. I am utterly convinced they have nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter."








Maddie cried 18 hours a dayArticle from: Font size: Decrease Increase Email article: Email Print article: Print Submit comment: Submit comment By Paul Harris

September 19, 2007 12:00am

KATE McCann has told of how Madeleine cried for 18 hours a day as a baby and demanded constant attention when her twin brother and sister were born.

In an interview with a Portuguese magazine, the 39-year-old GP is reported to have discussed her daughter suffering colic and how, at 20 months old, she reacted to the birth of twins Sean and Amelie.

Mrs McCann's intention seems to have been to illustrate how she and Madeleine bonded so closely during those early years, when mother and daughter were rarely separated.

But her interview was seized on by detectives as valuable evidence in the profile they are building of her.

Officers are seeking medical records to build up a case that she was incapable of controlling four-year-old Madeleine and the strain could have provoked her into violence while on holiday in Praia da Luz.

Mrs McCann's interview with Flash! magazine was held before she and husband Gerry were named as suspects in the case and before the diary details were published. In it, she spoke openly about her experiences in being a mother to Madeleine, candidly admitting that the first six months with her were "very difficult".

Her interview emerged as the case against the pair appeared to be crumbling because of doubts over the reliability of any forensic evidence. Sources told The Daily Mail officers may research information on Munchausen's syndrome by proxy as the condition can compel parents and other adults to harm children. It has become a routine line of inquiry in child murder investigations since the case of Beverley Allitt, the nurse who killed four children in 1991.

Allitt was convicted in 1993 on 13 charges of murder and causing grievous bodily harm. Those suffering from the condition often have a high knowledge of medical practice.

In the context of this case however, the suggestion was considered by some last night as another attempt to blacken the McCann name.

Police also said they want to reinterview the McCanns' friend Jane Tanner, who told police she saw a man carrying a child in a blanket the night Madeleine disappeared.

Miss Tanner, 37, is said to have arrived late at the table on the night of May 3, saying she was tending her sick child. Now police want to re-interrogate her to confirm her exact movements and analyse how it fits in with evidence from other members of the group dubbed the "tappas nine".

The interview probably conducted by police in England will be conducted as part of a general review of the witness evidence, which is being examined by a Portuguese judge.

Meanwhile lawyers acting for the McCanns are going back through Portuguese newspapers to look for evidence of "black propaganda" planted by police.

The trawl will be overseen by Clarence Mitchell, the former Foreign Office official who was yesterday announced as the family's spokesman.

He said: "They are an ordinary family caught up in extraordinary circumstances. I am utterly convinced they have nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter."

viv said...

Did Kate give Maddie injections??

Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome
By the time she was 8 years old, J.B. had been hospitalized 200 times and had undergone more than 40 operations, including the removal of most of her intestines.

K.C., a 2-year-old boy, was hospitalized more than 20 times due to complications from asthma, severe pneumonia, mysterious infections, and sudden fevers. His doctors were baffled and unable to determine the cause of these illnesses.

What do these seemingly unrelated cases have in common? They were the result of Munchausen by proxy syndrome (MBPS), or Factitious Disorder by Proxy, as it's listed in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (Fourth Edition, Text Revision, also known as DSM-IV-TR).

This relatively uncommon condition involves the exaggeration or fabrication of illnesses or symptoms by a primary caretaker. One of the most harmful forms of child abuse, Munchausen by proxy syndrome — also commonly called Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSBP) — was named after Baron von Munchausen, an eighteenth-century German dignitary known for telling outlandish stories.

J.B.'s medical history was traced to her mother, who manufactured her daughter's illnesses. Similarly, when K.C. was thought to have AIDS, he eventually complained to his mother's friend that his thigh was sore because "Mommy gave me shots" (indicating that the mother was giving her son something to cause his symptoms).

About MBPS
In MBPS, an individual — usually a mother — deliberately makes another person (most often his or her own preschool child) sick or convinces others that the person is sick. The parent or caregiver misleads others into thinking that the child has medical problems by lying and reporting fictitious episodes. He or she may exaggerate, fabricate, or induce symptoms. As a result, doctors usually order tests, try different types of medications, and may even hospitalize the child or perform surgery to determine the cause.

Typically, the perpetrator feels satisfied by gaining the attention and sympathy of doctors, nurses, and others who come into contact with him or her and the child. Some experts believe that it isn't just the attention that's gained from the "illness" of the child that drives this behavior, but also the satisfaction in being able to deceive individuals that they consider to be more important and powerful than themselves.

Because the parent or caregiver appears to be so caring and attentive, often no one suspects any wrongdoing. A perplexing aspect of the syndrome is the ability of the parent or caregiver to fool and manipulate doctors. Frequently, the perpetrator is familiar with the medical profession and is very good at fooling the doctors. Even the most experienced doctors can miss the meaning of the inconsistencies in the child's symptoms. It's not unusual for medical personnel to overlook the possibility of Munchausen by proxy syndrome because it goes against the belief that a parent or caregiver would never deliberately hurt his or her child.

Children who are subject to MBPS are typically preschool age, although there have been reported cases in children up to 16 years old. There are equal numbers of boys and girls; however, 98% of the perpetrators are female.

Diagnosis is very difficult, but would involve some of the following:

a child who has multiple medical problems that don't respond to treatment or that follow a persistent and puzzling course
physical or laboratory findings that are highly unusual, don't correspond with the child's medical history, or are physically or clinically impossible
short-term symptoms that tend to stop when the perpetrator isn't around
a parent or caregiver who isn't reassured by "good news" when test results find no medical problems, but continues to believe that the child is ill
a parent or caregiver who appears to be medically knowledgeable or fascinated with medical details or appears to enjoy the hospital environment
a parent or caregiver who's unusually calm in the face of serious difficulties with the child's health
a parent or caregiver who's highly supportive and encouraging of the doctor, or one who is angry and demands further intervention, more procedures, second opinions, or transfers to more sophisticated facilities
Causes of MBPS
In some cases, the parents or caregivers themselves were abused, both physically and sexually, as children. They may have come from families in which being sick was a way to get love. The parent's or caregiver's own personal needs overcome his or her ability to see the child as a person with feelings and rights, possibly because the parent or caregiver may have grown up being treated like he or she wasn't a person with rights or feelings.

Other theories say that Munchausen by proxy syndrome is a cry for help on the part of the parent or caregiver, who may be experiencing anxiety or depression or have feelings of inadequacy as a parent or caregiver of a young child. Some may feel a sense of acknowledgement when the child's doctor confirms their caregiving skills. Or, the parent or caregiver may just enjoy the attention that the sick child — and, therefore, he or she — gets.

The suspected person may also have symptoms similar to the child's own medical problems or an illness history that's puzzling and unusual. He or she frequently has an emotionally distant relationship with a spouse, who often fails to visit the seriously ill child or have contact with doctors.

What Happens to the Child?
In the most severe instances, parents or caregivers with Munchausen by proxy syndrome may go to great lengths to make their children sick. When cameras were placed in some children's hospital rooms, some perpetrators were filmed switching medications, injecting kids with urine to cause an infection, or placing drops of blood in urine specimens.

Some perpetrators aggravate an existing problem, such as manipulating a wound so that it doesn't heal. One parent discovered that scrubbing the child's skin with oven cleaner would cause a baffling, long-lasting rash.

Whatever the course, the child's symptoms — whether created or faked — don't happen when the parent isn't present, and they usually go away during periods of separation from the parent. When confronted, the parent usually denies knowing how the illness occurred.

According to the DSM-IV-TR, some of the most common conditions and symptoms that are created or faked by parents or caregivers with Munchausen by proxy syndrome include: failure to thrive, allergies, asthma, vomiting, diarrhea, seizures, and infections.

The long-term prognosis for these children depends on the degree of damage created by the perpetrator and the amount of time it takes to recognize and diagnose MBPS. Some extreme cases have been reported in which children developed destructive skeletal changes, limps, mental retardation, brain damage, and blindness from symptoms caused by the parent or caregiver. Often, these children require multiple surgeries, each with the risk for future medical problems.

If the child lives to be old enough to comprehend what's happening, the psychological damage can be significant. The child may come to feel that he or she will only be loved when ill and may, therefore, help the parent try to deceive doctors, using self-abuse to avoid being abandoned. And so, some victims of Munchausen by proxy syndrome later become perpetrators themselves.

Getting Help for the Child
If Munchausen by proxy syndrome is suspected, health care providers are required by law to report their concerns. However, after a parent or caregiver is charged, the child's symptoms may increase as the person who is accused attempts to prove the presence of the illness. If the parent or caregiver repeatedly denies the charges, the child should be removed from the home and legal action should be taken on the child's behalf.

In some cases, the parent or caregiver may deny the charges and move to another location, only to continue the behavior. Even if the child is returned to the perpetrator's custody while protective services are still involved, the child may continue to be a victim of abuse. For these reasons, it's always advised that these cases be resolved quickly.

Getting Help for the Parent or Caregiver
Most often, abusive Munchausen by proxy syndrome cases are resolved in one of three ways:

the perpetrator is apprehended
the perpetrator moves on to a younger child when the original victim gets old enough to "tell"
the child dies
To get help, the parent or caregiver must admit to the abuse and seek psychological treatment. But if the perpetrator doesn't admit to the wrongdoing, psychological treatment has little chance of remedying the situation. Psychotherapy depends on truth, and MBPS perpetrators generally live in denial.

Reviewed by: Barbara P. Homeier, MD
Date reviewed: March 2005
Originally reviewed by: Leslie A. Gavin-Devitt, PhD

hope4truth said...

Morning All

Viv Atardi and Leigh just read your posts to me last night thank you I was sudenly exausted last night said goodbye here and think I was in bed fast asleep less than 3 minutes later. I was up at 4.30 yesterday it was such a lovely day been up since 6 this morning it is amazing what you can get done without 2 teenagers under your feet (just about to kick them both out of bed)...

I have been reading back this morning and have to point out that as you all know I never wanted the McCann's jailed for neglect if that is all they did.

I have changed my mind. They have gone out of their way to tell everyone just what good decent honest people they are and I am sorry but they are not they neglect 3 very small children night after night and after Madeleine herself (so say told them she had been crying I think they had to spin that as well as they knew it would come out they had to be dragged back from their jolly night out)and they loved her so much were so concerend they thought about taking the children with them.

Well thought is not care it is not like they had to go out they could have stayed in eaten in the apartment if the children were tiered.

Every excuse they make puts the idea in other selfish parents heads that actually it is ok to neglect children and even if they go missing or die because of it (or something worse) it is ok as you can market your childs image set up a company not bother searchng for the missing child and hire people who specialise in fraud to try and find her.

To any Pro who hates all the lies and speculation something very bad happend to a 3 year old child and 2 year old twins they were NEGLECTED night after night and all three could have died that night in a fire falling down steep steps or in the pool.

NEGLECT is not ok it is not something that can be swept under the carpet.

If these two had not been Dr's and had the protection? of god knows what they would be in court by now. But a 3 year old child has no voice she should have had a voice shouting loud and clear PLEASE MUMMY AND DADDY DONT LEAVE US ON OUR OWN WE DONT LIKE IT WHAT IF A MONSTER COMES AND GET'S US. WELL KATE AND GERRY YOU WANT US TO BELIEVE THAT A MONSTER DID COME AND TAKE YOUR BEAUTIFUL DAUGHTER BUT YOU STILL MAKE EXCUSES FOR IT.

Which makes me think if they can deny what we all know to be true what else are they denying?

dolores said...

Good morning to everyone.


Hello! magazine No. 1024, 10 June 2008 (issue date: 03 June 2008) (No online link)
McCanns to fight neglect charges
Kate and Gerry McCann have vowed to vigorously contest neglect charges after court documents revealed that they have not yetbeen put in the clear over their missing daughter Madeleine.
Papers released last week show that police in Portugal have failed to rule out homicide, abandonment, concealment of a corpse and abduction. The couple's spokesman Clarence Mitchell told HELLO! "Kate and Gerry have received legal advice both in Portugal and England that they did everything within the bounds of reasonable parenting. They vigorously deny the neglect charges." Kate and Gerry are both still arguidos, official suspects in the investigation.
It was also reported last week that their friends, dubbed the "The Tapas Seven", will not return to Portugal to take part in a reconstruction of Madeleine's disappearance a year ago, days before her fourth birthday. They fear that they too will become suspects and that the exercise will not achieve anything.
Meanwhile, the McCanns are considering heading to Strasbourg in two weeks to bolster support for the campaign, backed by HELLO!, to introduce a European-wide child abduction scheme, based on the AMBER Alert system in the US.

hope4truth said...

Morning Dolores

Thanks for that it really makes me sick.

The couple's spokesman Clarence Mitchell told HELLO! "Kate and Gerry have received legal advice both in Portugal and England that they did everything within the bounds of reasonable parenting. They vigorously deny the neglect charges."

Well if they want the world to believe she was taken any normal parent would not say the above through a spin Dr because if she really was taken it was not reasonable parenting it was NEGLECTFUL PARENTING it was UNCARING PARENTING it was SELFISH PARENTING and at the very best it was STUPID PARENTING they can spin it any way they like but they are Dr's they know the dangers from Peadophiles they know the dangers of Neglect yet they chose to ignore everything for night after night out with their neglectful and selfish freinds.

Sorry Dolores that was obvioulsy not aimed at you but really any parent who lost a child would not be making excuses to save their own skin the guilt alone would be to much to bear but Kate and Gerry oh it was everyones fault but there..

xxx

dolores said...

Hope,

What I would like to see is Social Services telling the world it was responsible parenting not their lawyers.
They have it fixed in their minds it was,they are living in a fools paradise.

docmac said...

Morning Dolores

Long time no see. These people are kidding, right? Or do they really have that little respect or regard for the rights and welfare of children? They do not meet the standards required to qualify as parents. Or even human beings for that matter. It's 'save our necks' time, again. Too little too late I'm afraid. Again.

Nice to see you. I have to be off after my next little rant. To talk to some proper doctors who actually care about kids and who are doing so without taking donations, public money or filing suits against anyone.

Nice people look away now please.

The 'reasonable parenting' story again. Are you fucking serious? You still think the whole world is so fucking stupid? Your family think real doctors don't swear either? You obviously believe that doctors are not human then. Funny that. You two and those who are lying on your behalf are criminals. Nothing more needs to be said. Except that I'm starting to have second thoughts about the death penalty for scum like you. Thanks for that, it's not an issue I thought I'd ever have to deal with again. Tell the truth Kate, FFS!

dolores said...

Doc,
Nice to (see) you to, you have mail.:)

They do makes us boiling angry at them.How do they expect decent caring loving parents to react to their behaviour.They are a parasites.IMO.

Di said...

Good morning everyone

Thanks for posting the Hello article Dolores.

I am so glad they included all the possible charges that have not been ruled out yet, something our press are too afraid to do.

I think Kate & Gerry are overdue an eye test, they only seem able to focus on one word, abandonment.

No doubt Hello will be topping up the fund.

dolores said...

Di

Ihave every confidence in the PJ and our police.Don't forget the Mc's are desperate to stay out of jail and will do and say anything they can to avoid it.

Zodiac said...

Good morning all,

Hope,

Your posts of this morning, well said.

Dolores,

'What I would like to see is Social Services telling the world it was responsible parenting not their lawyers.'

I agree with your statement above. I would also like the newspapers, magazines etc who print this verbatim to actually contact Social Services, NSPCC etc and ask them if this is legal, responsible parenting and then print their response in the same article.

The NSPCC ad where the child in the cot is crying and knows no one will come. This ad depicts despicable neglect.

ratonthebeam said...

OMG not Sian! Has she found her way from Sky to the Fairies'n'Kittens? Rosiepops does not know the half of what she has let herself in for. That Sian is a bl**dy psycho!!!! This is going to be better than anything on the telly, believe me!!!! LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!

Is she still claiming that Robert Murat put all the gory details of Madeleine's abduction, kidnapping, ransom money and other assorted perversions on his web site for the world to see? Funny, all I could see on RM's site was a load of overpriced leather jackets for sale. Not a child in sight! Hahahaha!!!!!

Seriously. That Sian is Very Bad News indeed. She's a lawsuit looking for a place to happen. If she's come home to roost on Rosie's blog, fine. Couldn't happen to a nicer person.

ratonthebeam said...

'What I would like to see is Social Services telling the world it was responsible parenting not their lawyers.'

Well said Dolores! SS have been very quiet about the whole thing. Funny, that.

Cláudia said...

Rat, you mean it will be better than Big Brother? lolololol

ratonthebeam said...

Oh yes, Claudia! This is going to be GOOD! hAHHAAHAHAhahahaha!!!!

In the meantime here is another interesting, parallel case for you.

"Devout Christian" Michael Blagg came home one day to find wife and daughter missing, and a big pool of blood in the bedroom. He actively courted the media, encouraging both Police and private citizens to search for the "kidnapper".

Sound familiar? At all?

Police could find no evidence of a kidnapper - or bodies.

'Till Michael Blagg's movements led them to a landfill site, where he had dumped the bodies of his wife and child, confident that the Police would never "find the bodies and prove it".

The entire town spent months in protective suits, digging 30ft down into a landfill site, finding their way through the whole of Denver's rubbish by looking at the dates on old newspapers. Eventually, with the help of a mechanical digger, they found the skull of wife Elisabeth.

They never did find 6-year-old Abby. But 6 years on (this was in 2002), some of the townspeople still occasionally go out and dig. They do not want the wee soul to be forever interred in a landfill.

There was a landfill near PDL where Gerry is supposed to have dumped a freezer.

Wasn't there?????

Cláudia said...

Rat, what a sad story. And the behaviour does ring some bells...
Will there be cameras in the alternative Big Brother? :-)

ratonthebeam said...

Claudia, I would pay good money myself to see a webcam set up on that blog! Priceless entertainment value!

ratonthebeam said...

This is where the story first broke. Sorry, the lady's name was Jennifer, not Elisabeth. But the parallels between cases, I found very striking indeed.

Cláudia said...

Rat, there are definately similarities between the two stories.
As for the cameras, I would pay some money myself! :-)

ratonthebeam said...

It's worse than I thought! Read this report from CBS. Like the McCann case, there are people who will never let it rest, even 6 years on, until wee Abby's remains are found.

Cláudia said...

Hi, Rat. I read that report. And it is in fact a terible story. I'm sure that if the House of Filth inhabitants become aware of this case, they will also be willing to support this convicted killer. After all, it's just another one and they are used to support convicted killers like the Cipriano brothers and Raches Charles's murderer.

ratonthebeam said...

Claudia, when my cats died, I would not even leave the bodies with the vet, there is no way I would even risk my wee cats being interred in some landfill site with all the rubbish. Every one of my cats went to the Pets Crematorium and had a proper, decent, religious send off. It is the least you can do for one of your own family. I just feel so sad thinking of these poor wee souls maybe buried in a landfill somewhere, it's not decent and has upset me very much.

Cláudia said...

Rat, some people (???) who disrespect the ones they should love and protect the most don't deserve the air they breathe.

nancy said...

Docmac -

Ironside's article on 3A's is called "Is this the reason Kate washed Cuddle Cat" (really interesting read).

In answer to one blogger he said:

"I agree about the washing of Cuddle Cat to remove the scent of death. I have no idea if a child has been sedated on a regular basis, would this stay in the system. We need a doctor's opinion DOCMAC.... I know you read this forum - your input on this would be much appreciated"

lizzy said...

Hi Nancy,
I read that threat of Ironside's, thought he made really good points re the possibilities re cuddlecat. Although this toy was washed I believe 4 times by Kate it is alleged that the dogs still got the scent of death from it,probably Kate and Gerry had no idea these dogs would be brought to PDL and used by the police, must have been quite a shock for them...Lizzy

lizzy said...

Nancy,
Sorry meant thread of Ironside's not threat, typing gets worse...lol

nancy said...

Hi Lizzy -

Yes, and it's the saliva on the toy that they wanted to take a sample of which would obviously have shown up any trace of sedatives or whatever.

I wish Ironside blogged on here - I guarantee it would be going full blast all the time! I used to really enjoy reading him on the 3A's.

That's not to say we don't have great bloggers on here too. Viv never ceases to amaze at the length and content of her leaders!

I'm not stopping because I'm watching Spain v Russia - just started second half.

See you later Lizzy!

Nx

viv said...

Hiya all

Re Cuddlecat

My understanding is the police found this in their hired villa in August (among other incriminating items) and the dog marked it as having death scent on it. A few days later Kate started to wash it.

Re Social Services, NSPCC

Neither are allowed to comment about the welfare of living children, court cases are also dealt with by naming them child X etc. This is obviously to protect the child. Neither could them commnet about the ongoing criminal investigation into the death of Madeleine. The only time SSD are allowed to comment publically is when a child has died, after criminal proceedings and when there is an enquiry into the death e.g. Climbie. Imagine how terrible this would be for the twins if they started doing this..It would also breach the McCanns right to have a fair trial.

RE Hello Magazine POSTED BY DOLORES Hello again!

Unfortunately it always seems there is a section of the press somewhere that consider the McCanns a right little earner. I have never bought this magazine and certainly never would now but at least they admit the four things the McCanns are being investigated for but then perversely tell us they will strenuously fight neglect charges. On what basis I just cannot imagine. Kate has not denied that the contents of the released statement are true, she is saying that Madeleine complained about being left alone, but she then went and done it again. In fact she did even worse than that, she or Gerry killed Madeleine so that she could never complain again.

The Blagg case posted by Rob - great piece of work

There are so many extraordinary similarities here, I am thinking of putting this up as a new thread, what do people think.

Testing of hair for drugs

The Police obviously do have samples of both the twins and Madeleine's hair, they most certainly can do forensic tests for drugs in the hair although what was used that night obviously would not show up. I think it is highly likely they do have such evidence from FSS from previous abusive behaviour by them..in all likelihood, Kate McCann. I think she was trying to explain why she did this by telling us Madeleine cried for 18 hours a day and shrieked for attention. There is something very seriously wrong with this woman..whoosh clunk !

Viv x

lizzy said...

Hi Viv/all
Just read this on the 3 Arguidos by Beowolf...
"Believe it or not... don't ask me for sources!"

1- PJ has proofs that McCanns used sedatives.
2- 4 Members of Tapas were not in PDL just for vacations.
3- One of the Tapas members is under police surveillance and protection.
4- There was a 10th Tapas
5- PJ has reports about outside attempts on manipulation in Birmingham FSS lab DNA results.

Although there is no link, interesting if true. Lizzy

atardi said...

Viv,

The football thing is goimg on. Spain just won from Russia 3-1. And at 20.45 (Dutch Time) we will have the 2nd game. Sweden against Greece.

I will be supportimg Niki tonight.

-----------------------


If we must wait 6 years before JFM is done than we will do it.

I think the Mc Canns thought that everything would be over in december 2007. That every one would think that Madeleine was abducted so they could "celebrate" the 1st anniversary and after that Madeleine's birthday. Money, money,money............

Di said...

Hi All

I agree, I also miss Ironside on here, please don't shout at me but I also miss 2345! They both had such good input, not that I am saying nobody else does.

Hello magazine!! what can I say.
We all know the reputation of that magazine,the saying is, THE KISS OF DEATH TO RELATIONSHIPS. Oh well, what will be will be.

Clarence, if you have got to this stage then you must be desperate.

As Mark Twain said...

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt"

Just a thought!!

hope4truth said...

Hello ALL

Just to say I will be supporting Greece tonight for Nikki (I have never taken such an intrest in who wins before) maybe it is better England is not there...

ROTB

Thanks for the links to another very sad story. The problem for the police in many cases is they know someone is guilty from their actions but proving it is another matter.

Someone mentioned the NSPCC cot advert which I find heartbreaking as well on the DX forum Old Hippy was talking about it saying it was so sad? Then defending leaving Madeleine alone?

The truth is leaving your children alone is shocking unless you are teh Tapas 9 then it is ok even if one of them ends up missing.

Sick sick world we live in...

hope4truth said...

Battery about to die be back later xxx

Di I like your quote BTW will remeber that one xxx

Di said...

Lizzy

Thanks for posting Beowolf's comments...

I have to say when I have read his/her thoughts on 3A's I have always found them thoughtful!!

4 Members of the Tapas were not in PDL for a vacation..Well we all remember Gerry's comments on the airport bus don't we!!

Manipulation of FSS Lab, now! who could that possibly be. MMmmmm

Could it be Metodo 3 or, could it be Brian Kennedy, just my opinion of course!!

Something very strange is going on..

nancy said...

Hi everyone!

Atardi -


Spain 4 - Russia 1


Fantastic and it rained cats and dogs!!

Zodiac said...

Di,

'As Mark Twain said...

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt"'

Spot on with the above phrase.

Hope,

'Someone mentioned the NSPCC cot advert which I find heartbreaking as well on the DX forum Old Hippy was talking about it saying it was so sad? Then defending leaving Madeleine alone?'

I remember Oldhippy referring to that ad on the DE. Wonder what her comments would be now that it is in the public domain that two of the three kids were crying that night. The two year old boy would have been in his cot crying and his sister able to wander around. I wonder if the sister tried to help her brother out of the cot to comfort him. Not a venial error, IMO.

hope4truth said...

Zodiac

Hello...

When she said it I am sure she was trying to stir...

It was such a strange comment from someone who although they said they were on the fence it was very obvious she wasnt.

That advert says it all and is the same as what the McCann's did to their children (even thought it has taken Kate a year to try and tell it like it was a positive thing) How many times have you had to go up and down the stairs because a child wanted a glass of water? Yet Sean and Madeleine were crying and no one came just like for the actor playing little Miles.

Does she post on the other blog? I remeber her having a complete rant one day at poor Rat and demanding to know where she lived.

I think she was another one of a multiple personality she certainly went off on one...

xxx

lizzy said...

Di,
I agree Beowolf's posts are usually thought provoking, all 5points made are interesting but I found the point made re the Tapas member being under surveillance and protection particularly interesting,makes you wonder who, could this be the Tapas member who gave conflicting statements to the agreed ones with the Mccanns? Quite scary to think if so that they are in need of protection. I do feel though that there has been desperation by Team Mccann to maintain, prove their innocence and wonder just how far they would go if they felt somebody might expose the truth of that night, I think if someone has stood up and revealed the truth they must be quite scared of any repercussions.
Lizzy

dolores said...

10.06.2008
The case Madeleine: British Ambassador denies contacts between the governments.




"The only thing I know the investigation is that Madeleine is not found," said Alexandre Ellis, the British ambassador to Portugal, the Daily Jornal de Notícias.Alexandre Ellis said that what the British Embassy did, in the case of Madeleine McCann, was just "facilitate meetings between the authorities and provide any necessary support to British citizens involved in the case."

Questioned whether there were contacts between British and Portuguese governments about the case, taking into account the fact that Clarence Mitchell, then senior official of the cabinet of British Prime Minister, was sent to Praia da Luz, help the couple McCann, Alexandre Ellis replied: "I do not think so.It is a matter for the police, not governments, and authorities have worked in good coordination. "

But Gordon Brown, speaking to journalists in Lisbon, before the EU summit in October 2007, said he would talk with Portuguese Prime Minister about issues related to disappearance of Madeleine McCann. The press office of Portuguese Prime Minister denied that the issue of the case investigation Madeleine has been discussed during the meeting with Gordon Brown.

"The only topics discussed during the meeting between Gordon Brown and José Sócrates have been linked to the EU Summit.Everything else is speculation, "according to the same source, quoted by the Portuguese daily Correio da Manhã. A spokesman for Gordon Brown has denied this and said the British media that Prime Minister Gordon Brown has told his Portuguese counterpart Jose Socrates about Madeleine during the EU summit in Lisbon. ” The official spokesman Gordon Brown said: "Both agreed that what counts is that there should be the closest possible cooperation between the Portuguese and British police."

The British government "believes that Durão Barroso is in an excellent position to become the first president of the EU Treaty pos-Lisbon, said then the British ambassador.Alexandre Ellis is married to a Portuguese and during the two years preceding his appointment as ambassador to Lisbon, he was one of the advisers Durão Barroso, current president of the EU.

Duarte Levy & Paulo Reis

nancy said...

Viv -

I just read your post from yesterday regarding Munchauson by Proxy Syndrome! What a catastrophic illness indeed.

The cases you quoted made really sinister reading, and the name of the illness itself is enough to make you shudder!

I must admit I've never known anyone with this dreadful condition myself, but I would think some people who are diagnosed with being hypochondriacs could perhaps unknowingly suffer from it.

As you say, even the most experienced doctors can miss inconsistencies in the child's symptoms, but I'm sure now this condition is more common that doctors are being trained to recognise the symptoms of the syndrome itself.

A really terrible form of child cruelty when someone who has this condition puts their child's health at risk but at the same time unable to help him or herself.

Nx

Zodiac said...

Hope,

I remember her attacking ROTB. She also went crazy when her duo on the pedestal did not get their Argudi status removed on a certain date, she was temporarily suspended from the DE for her abuse.

As for multi ID of that I have no doubt. Rosiedobyalromammytaewanoldhip and many more. What a saddo, IMO.

To leave little children on their own is absolutely dispicable, IMO.

Are your teeth OK now.

nancy said...

Hi Dolores-

It's hard to believe that there was no discussion at all at the EU Summit last October - with the world wide media attention that this case has captured, it would have been amazing if Gordon Brown didn't make some passing comment to the Portuguese Minister on the case.

Obviously the Ambassador to Portugal is trying to make both the Portuguese and the British Ministers appear neutral about the whole thing because that's his job after all!

bath theory said...

Let us put the washing of cuddlecat to one side. The smell of washing powder was obviously more appealing than that of their daughter.

The other point about cuddlecat is who would seriously carry it everywhere with them like she did for a time. It was the most private and intimate points of contact between Madeleine and her family. So show it to the cameras once and see if it jogged memories etc but then wouldn't you leave it in a special place in case the missing daughter returns ?

dolores said...

Hi Nancy

When do politicians ever tell the truth.

atardi said...

Nancy:

Congratulations,

Spain was the best team. I was always a supporter of Spain, but felt a little bit sorrow for Guus Hiddink.What a rain indeed.

nancy said...

Viv -

You said 'there is something seriously wrong with Kate's psyche - whoosh clunk'!

It's a rare mother who would ever think to wash her child's favourite cuddy toy after she has gone from her life! I think that is top of the list among many strange things Kate did that have led to a change of hearts and minds of many of the people who at first strongly defended the McCanns.

As for ROB's Blagg case and it's similarities with this case, I think it would make a good leader column so go for it!!


Nx

nancy said...

Atardi -

I am a right softy - I am a fan of the Spanish team obviously because I live here and my husband's Spanish, but I couldn't help feeling sorry for the Russians! I always feel for the underdog!!

My favourite player is still Ronaldo though!!

Nx

nancy said...

Dolores -

Short answer - NEVER!!

It is a well known fact though that Gordon Brown spoke to Gerry McCann after the news got through about Madeleine's disappearance. As soon as he found out he sent CM over to PdeL to help get things into the public domain - I don't think he would have gone to such lengths for any other young couple whose child had gone missing.

I think the connection between them all is the Masonic Lodge and that's at the heart of all the collusion. There are very few business men, and I'm sure politicians, who aren't Masons, or members of the Round Table, (a similar sort of thing)- you have to be of a certain status to be nominated by someone and they swear allegiance to each other regardless of circumstances.

Let's hope we'll hear something soon from the PJ's - I shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't coincide with K&G's forthcoming 'Amber Alert' system trip!

nancy said...

I'm signing off now -

I look forward to reading your posts tomorrow.

God bless and sleep well.



Nx

viv said...

Hi All

I would have been frankly amazed if Gordon Brown and Socrates had met and not discussed the McCann case. This is a very high profile and serious case requiring close co-operation between the two countries which they head. It would be their duty to see that happens and to protect a very old and close relationship between the two countries.

I am sorry but some people wish to see conspiracies where there is simply no basis for that. To suggest that either government would have some vested interest is seeing that a couple of serious criminals are not brought to justice is frankly absurd.

Viv x

Joe said...

I note that the McCanns are considering going to Strasbourg according to Hello magazine, to promote Amber Alert. They are clearly not worried about any charges or of the ambiguity of their position in the event any charges are laid and any embarrassment that might cause the Amber Alert group. clearly that group are not worried either. Makes one think why?


Whether they go or not, they did not even contemplate going to PDL to assist the PJ. They are 2 fine examples indeed to be promoting an Amber Alert system and encouraging swift action from the public, Police and authorities when a child goes missing. Is this Amber Alert Group mad to risk such a strategy in using the McCanns when they may be charged with Child neglect? I just cannot fathom such a strategy, that if charges are made will leave the system in tatters and ruins.Bizarre.

Joe said...

Viv,

With respect I have to disagree with you. I do not know for sure if the Labour Government is involved in keeping this case under wraps but one cannot preclude official involvement if the alleged 10th Tapas is an official or connected person ( and still unidentified to this day in such a serious investigation). Also if as was posted in past posts GB brother John on the scene?. The connection with another brother in PR and the Pink Clown. This case had had more stone walls than the Great wall of China. As I say Viv not proof of official help but one cannot dismiss it either. What would one child be in the order of things to preserve the many.I am not a conspiracy theorist but too many people involved in this case appear to know one another who knows someone else, all connected perhaps?

docmac said...

Hello Joe and Viv

This matter of organisations such as Amber Alert not distancing themselves from the McCanns is very, very puzzling indeed. I am actually having an online 'chat' with somebody on this very subject right now. Well, it's more an argument really.

ICMEC, Gerry's 'newest and bestest' friend has only 2 full affiliates: PACT and SACMEC. Guess what the 'SA' in SACMEC stands for? ;-). I think I may get to speak to some people that will give me the names of some people that need to answer a few questions.

viv said...

Hi Joe

I do not understand what you mean the government keeping this case under wraps. The news is that the McCanns are being investigated for homicide, kidnapping, disposing of the body and abandonment by the Portuguese authorities and the prosecutor is currently working on appropriate charges. The case is under secrecy of justice but soon that period will come to an end. It is the Portuguese authorities who, quite properly, have kept the McCanns from having any information about the investigation into theirs (and others) conduct, in just the same way that our own police do.

It is true to say that Gerry McCann has sought to use contacts and political clout, it certainly does not sound to me like it got him anywhere, he is a criminal, and a very serious one, and that is how he is being treated, according to criminal law.

Viv x

Joe said...

Hi Docmac.

For such a sensitive organization it beggars belief to have these two people as ambassadors. The only conclusion is perhaps its another form of spin to convince the public of their goodness and it WAS decided in the McCanns BEST interest that they are to promote this outfit.

lizzy said...

Joe,
I agree with you, I believe there has been Government interference from the outset of his case, and it has continued, if somewhat less publically than at the start, time will tell as to whether this will affect the outcome of the case, but in my opinion there has been unprecedented interference in this case.I think though the Portuguese Police have not been put off though and are working hard to try to solve this case. They deserve to be commended for their efforts and dignity shown, even though they have been slated by our press often for being inefficient.Lizzy

Joe said...

Viv,

You are right that the PJ are indeed investigating but we will not really know for a while how much influence has been used to try and suppress the case. Until charges are laid providing of course there is enough evidence we cannot be sure what is truly going on. I would not personally refer to GM as a criminal as he has not been charged let alone convicted. Time will tell.

Joe said...

Hi Lizzy,

I agree there are too many unanswered questions for there not to have been some political interference. We cannot deny that GM spoke to GB, or that Mitchell was/is a government employee that is just 2 political references alone.In any other case this would not happen so there would be no dispute. Time will tell as you and I both agree.

viv said...

Hi Joe

I can be sure of what is going on because I have read the judgment of an appeal court judge in Portugal.

I can also be sure that Gerry McCann is a criminal because they have freely admitted to serious criminal negligence of their children.

The McCanns were given consular assistance as Brits abroad in trouble with the police, that is every criminal's legal right. I suggest you check the Foreign Office webpage to seek confirmation of that.

lizzy said...

Hi Joe,
I really hope that there will be justice in this case Joe, we will soon find out, what heartens me is the fact that the Prosecutor sanctioned the extenson of the secrecy back in March, surely he would not have done this if he felt there was insufficient evidence for charges to be laid.
As you say though we wil find out soon am sure.

Joe said...

Viv,

I do not dispute the right of consular advice/ help that people are entitled to. As I said in my posts I have no factual proof of official involvement etc and I may be 100% wrong. Having said that would you or I get GB ear, would a spin doctor give up his official job to come to talk for you or me, out of the goodness of his heart and continues in the role to this day.

Lets not fall out Viv over this but there are too many coincidences in this case. I do hope it is resolved and the truth comes out no matter who is hurt as Portuguese official said some time ago. Life is of no value if there is no justice thats my opinion.

viv said...

Hiya Joe

I am an educated person with a couple of degrees and know how to speak up for myself and do everything possible to help myself if I were in a bad situation.

Say I was in Portugal with my middle son his wife and my four grand-daughters, one of whom got abducted from her bed. Say also I knew someone close to Gordon Brown. Do you not think I might have made contact with Gordon Brown personally to seek his help?

The thing is, Gerry was immediately on the phone and making all these contacts. The case was in the Daily Telegraph just turned midnight on 4 May. So contact must have been made almost before even the police were contacted. Gerry was not making these contacts because of the above scenario, though was he? How can Gordon Brown be blamed for offering to help. If he was still offering to help now when it is patently clear there was no such abduction then clearly he could, but to suggest a serving Prime Minister would conduct himself in this way to assist Kate and Gerry McCann, a couple accused of extremely serious criminality, is frankly absurd.

Did Clarence Mitchell give up his job or was he pushed? He has left other jobs rather abruptly. The government would not wish to in any way be seen to be involved in a criminal case, other than at the highest level to ensure matters proceeded properly with the Portuguese. Why is this business man bankrolling Kate and Gerry McCann, that is far more to the point. He is paying Clarence Mitchell, Metodo 2 etc, in short he is paying people who act in a blatantly dishonest way. This is nothing to do with the British government.

Of course I do not wish to fall out with you but when I see claims being made on here which I do feel are completely absurd, then I am going to say so. The case is proceeding against Kate and Gerry McCann exactly the way that it should. It has been an extremely difficult case for a host of reasons, but progress has been made and we will see very soon precisely what the charges are to be. Kate, Gerry and their friends know that full well, hence they refused to return for the reconstruction. If they were so confident our own government were stepping in for them, what would they have been so fearful of?

I would go as far as to say that if any serving government in the civilised world acted the way it is being suggested Gordon Brown has acted, they would never be elected again, it would be the end of the labour party. People should think through more carefully what they claim.

Viv x

docmac said...

Chill, Viv

I for one believe Labour will be elected again. Just not in the next election ;-) How's the new Tory council going? :-)

viv said...

Doc, now do not tease!!

Viv xxxxx

Joe said...

Hi Viv,

I will catch up to morrow. I respect your opinion in your post and your belief in the Labour Government. You cannot be sure though until, and if all this shakes out when the PJ are through with the investigation of how much official interference (or any)was involved and what Mitchell's real role was/is. I do not believe that GB personally would be involved in this case at any level. It was mentioned I do believe by Reberio the ex PJ chief and others that there was political pressure in the case, make of that what you will, whether it was just posturing on his part or not is another matter.
As I said earlier there are too many connected people involved in this case and money talks and always will. Do you believe that there is/may be a 10th Tapas? If yes why has he not been identified?


Anyway you have seen my views over the months I try to be honest and fair and I do not believe I am always right and I am prepared to be wrong and accept it. Its all conjecture in the end.

Goodnight.

viv said...

Hi Joe

There did seem to be delay in returning forensic analysis and also in dealing with the rogatory letters and Portugal have complained about this. We really do not know what the reasons are for this, it can only be conjecture. But again, I would say Gerry McCann knows a lot of people and knows how to push for his rights. It is also true to say that I feel, and I am sure you and many others would agree, Clarence Mitchell has abused his former government position to obtain advantage for the McCanns. He has access to civil servants and they have no political alliance they keep their job no matter which party are in power, but it is true to say, the establishment has generally favoured the conservatives. Thus it is not difficult to imagine some have thought it appropriate to attack labour in this way. There has in the past been some pretty extreme plotting by MI5 etc against a serving labour prime minister - Harold Wilson in the 60s.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Clarence Mitchell has directly lobbied civil servants to seek to gain advantage for the McCanns. I have said this before and stand by that. It was openly admitted his Whitehall contacts would be useful and I am sure they have been. We cannot know to what extent. It is clearly possible they could have caused problems with the rogatory letters but I find this unlikely. In any event what is the point of causing delay when in the end, the requests have been fully complied with? Of course delay to a desperate criminal may seem worthwhile for all sorts of reasons, but try as he might, with all his contacts and manipulative conduct and with someone at his elbow who is clearly a disreputable liar, Gerry has been properly pursued by the police and is not going to get away with what he and his wife did.

I am pleased you are accepting that Gordon Brown personally would certainly not be involved in seeking to get the McCanns off, it is that suggestion I have always seriously objected to.

Kind Regards
Viv x

docmac said...

Viv

I have to dos (sleep) now. Labour, Conservative, who cares? They're all liars and on the take when they get in, and even thereafter. Look at the Toned one and his 'I wannabe richer than Liz2' wife. I support Mr Power Shower, Jacob Zuma. Not. Bunch of crooks all.

viv said...

Sorry Joe

One further point I have not answered, could there be a 10th TAPAS?

I think it is very unlikely there is a 10th person that was actually present at the table that night because that would have come out. However, I think it is definitely possible, in fact likely, there is a tenth person involved who the police know about. It was clear from reading the judgment and other reports the police did not want this person to know that they knew about him. This is actually typical police conduct. Someone is seriously up to no good and is involved in a criminal conspiracy..saying to him, look pal, we know about you and we are watching you, is just not the way the police behave. It is also possible of course that this tenth person is Mr Murat.

I think the police needed time, to watch all the protagonists and see what they get up to, to gather evidence to build a watertight case and that is what has been happening and the reason why the judge has twice granted further time. People have become impatient but sometimes homicide cases can take several years.

The level of apparent offending here is quite beyond belief. WE need to remember that. We have had sightings of Madeleine even in South America etc and the level of fraud and corruption is very extensive IMO.

Even if it was announced the police actually needed another couple of years it would not surprise me!

Viv x

viv said...

It was reported the police wanted details of 10 mobiles but there are only nine TAPAS. The one mobile was unidentified, as my eldest son told me, probably a pay as you go, mom. Well here is a pay as you go mobile caller! It is odd that everything leads back to Spain, isn't it..I wonder if the Metodos were instructed a long time before September, this report is dated June. Where do people go when they want to avoid the long reaches of the law..South America!

Mystery Call Linked To South America
Updated:15:10, Friday June 08, 2007

The hunt for abducted Madeleine McCann has been linked for the first time to South America.

The McCanns in AmsterdamIt is understood a mysterious call claiming to know the whereabouts of the four-year-old came from a mobile phone registered in Argentina.

The call, described by officials as "credible", was considered so potentially significant that the McCanns halted their search of Europe to help police investigate.

The call from the pay-as-you-go phone came from a man who wanted to speak directly to the McCanns, according to Spanish police sources.

He did not reveal his identity or nationality, but the phone was soon linked to the South American country.

All efforts to re-establish contact with the caller failed on Wednesday and the couple carried on with their journey around Europe.

A British police source said: "The importance of this line of inquiry is still being assessed and attempts to re-establish contact are continuing."

Spanish officials at first denied they had received the call, but a Guardia Civil source told the Portuguese paper Correio de Manha: "Only time will tell if this call gives help or not to the case."

Spanish newspaper El Mundo reported that a man matching the description released by Portuguese police two weeks ago was seen in a bar in Seville a week before Madeleine's abduction.

It claimed the man was working on the instruction of others and told fellow drinkers he was going to the Algarve.

In Praia da Luz, Mr and Mrs McCann planned a trip to Morocco as the final part of their attempt to raise awareness of their daughter's disappearance.

They are keen to go because of its proximity to Portugal. Several ferries a day leave from Tarifa in Spain for the 35-minute crossing to Tangiers.

The couple are considering catching the ferry and travelling to the capital Rabat.

Morocco has surfaced repeatedly in the hunt for Madeleine, with a reported sighting of a little girl seen with a man.

It is 35 days since Madeleine was abducted from her bed in the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz.

Police have only one formal suspect, Robert Murat.

viv said...

"We have come to the Netherlands today with a very specific objective. We have a lot of good friends here who have been working behind the scenes to help us.


"After British and German tourists, the largest group of nationals who make up the tourists in the Algarve are the Dutch."

Mr McCann insisted there was a logic behind the trips they have made in the last week.

"We are not going to go to every country in Europe. We are not selling a book, we are not pop stars, we have come here for a very specific reason."

Mrs McCann said: "We are amateurs in this. There are very few people who will have to go through anything as painful as this."


taken from this article below in which it is pointed out the McCanns were even thinking of re-directing to Britain. I am sure these trips coinciding with this mystery caller having such detailed information but not wanting to say where he was from, who he was, on an unregistered mobile, confirm these trips the McCanns were making certainly did have a very specific purpose and how nice of the Dutch friends to do all of that work for them "behind the scenes". Do what exactly?? Orchestrate a host of fake sightings of Madeleine, perhaps? Gerry and Kate needed to have a private chat with their Dutch friends, Clarence Mitchell had warned them they were being bugged, very much in keeping with his official duties then working for the government, I dont think so! If there is one thing that would really bring a smile to my face it is seeing Clarence MITCHELL GET ARRESTED:-))))

Maddie: Call sparks lead hope

8/ 6/2007

A MYSTERY phone call from a man claiming to know the whereabouts of missing Madeleine McCann could provide a new lead in the case, it emerged today.

The caller provided such detail that Kate and Gerry McCann put their European search for their daughter on hold in case they needed to act.

The couple were informed of the potential development while in Germany, where they were appealing for information about their four-year-old child.

It is 35 days since Madeleine was abducted from her bed in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz.

The "credible" call was taken from a man who wanted to speak directly to the McCanns, according to a Spanish police source.

It was traced to an unregistered pay-as-you-go phone from an unidentified country but not thought to be Morocco, where a previous possible sighting of Madeleine was reported.

The caller did not reveal his identity or nationality but the information was considered important enough to alert Mr and Mrs McCann, the source said.

At around 3pm yesterday, the couple - who were about to go to Tempelhof airport in Berlin to fly on to the Netherlands - were advised that the caller might try to contact them, so they stayed on at the British embassy.

At 6pm, journalists travelling in the eight-seater private jet with the McCanns were told by the flight crew that there might be a change in destination.

They revealed they had been asked to draw up a new flight plan involving a possible change from Amsterdam to East Midlands Airport.

It was thought the McCanns might need to go back to the UK to talk to advisers about the call.

But all efforts to re-establish contact with the man failed and the couple decided to go on to Amsterdam.

They left Berlin at 7.30pm, three hours later than planned, for the hour-long flight to Schiphol Airport, in Amsterdam, to continue their search.

Mr and Mrs McCann are thought to be on standby, ready to return to the UK if necessary.

A Spanish police source said: "A man called saying he knew where Madeleine was and wanted to speak to the McCanns.

"This did not appear to be a crank call and the information was felt credible enough to warrant the couple being informed immediately."

The McCanns were in Berlin preparing to fly to Amsterdam but were advised to delay take-off.

The situation was so critical that it was felt they could not afford to be out of touch on the plane, even for an hour during the short flight.


A provisional plan to go back to Britain was drawn up in case they made contact with the caller.

The couple wanted to be able to get the best possible specialist advice in Britain if necessary.

A British police source said: "The McCanns were delayed in Berlin after information came into the inquiry which required their urgent attention.

"There was a possibility of a new line of communication being opened up and a flight back to the UK was discussed.

"The importance of this line of inquiry is still being assessed and attempts to re-establish contact are continuing."

The McCanns have always said that it might only take one phone call to get Madeleine back.

The possible new lead came as the McCanns came to the end of the European section of their search for their daughter.

They have been to Italy, Spain, Germany and the Netherlands in a bid to raise awareness about her abduction. They plan to go to Morocco at the weekend.

Today, the McCanns were in Amsterdam for the first time since 2004, when they lived in the city for a year.

Holding a poster of their daughter at a packed press conference, Mr McCann said: "It is particularly sad for Kate and I to come back for the first time and not to come back with Madeleine who spent a year here with us.

"It is very emotional, we have fond memories of our year in Amsterdam. We have a lot of good friends here who have been working behind the scenes to help us.

"We have come to the Netherlands today with a very specific objective.

"After British and German tourists, the largest group of nationals who make up the tourists in the Algarve are the Dutch."

Mr McCann insisted there was a logic behind the trips they have made in the last week.

"We are not going to go to every country in Europe. We are not selling a book, we are not pop stars, we have come here for a very specific reason."

Mrs McCann said: "We are amateurs in this. There are very few people who will have to go through anything as painful as this."

docmac said...

Mrs McCann said: "We are amateurs in this. There are very few people who will have to go through anything as painful as this."


You read my mind, Kate. I do believe you were amateurs. And the courts are very tough. It will indeed be painful.

BTW:
"We are amateurs IN..."
There are very few people WHO..."


Have we met??

Niki said...

Kalimera all!

Just passing by...
Have you read this brilliant summary by Nige on McCannfiles?:

Madeleine McCann: The Abduction of the Truth

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id87.html
------

Thank you Atardi and Hope for your support yesterday! Did not help much though....:((( We'll be back stronger:) Congratulations to Holland and Spain:)

Have a nice day! See you soon:)
Niki

Zodiac said...

Good morning all,

Niki,


Many thanks for the above link. It is indeed a brilliant summary by Nige.

nancy said...

Hi folks!

The following extract from the McCannfiles begs the question as to how K&G can go on with their charade of trying to sell themselves to the media and the public knowing that a huge majority of them have stopped believing what they say:


"The McCanns know there is no firm evidence of an abduction in the apartment. That they have never made any suggestion, demand or claim about such evidence is revealing in itself because not only does it suggest that no such evidence exists but more chillingly, they know there is no such evidence to be found.

So with no apparent evidence, how has the theory built with no stronger materials than straw or sticks, managed to survive a year without challenge?

K&G first said that the doors were locked and changed their story when it became obvious the apartment had not been broken into.

Then they said the doors were unlocked for fear of fire, and when it seemed a serious admission to make they changed it to fear of the key sounding in the front door when the children were sleeping.

The windows were not jemmied or tampered with as had first been suggested - they were not marked, which they would have been if someone had got through the window because of the lichen on the window cills. And Kate also said that she drew the curtain back when she went into the children's bedroom. Would a predator have stopped to close the curtains back after going through the window with a child?

20 people were later in and out of the apartment but the twins didn't wake up.

Gerry said "the twins slept soundly until we moved them out of the cots which does make me wonder about whether there was any substance used to keep them asleep".

Gerry is an expert in the use of drugs in sport so would surely have known straight away if the twins had been drugged.

Eileen McCann, Gerry's mother said, "I really believe that whoever took Madeleine gave her a drug".

Madeleine had a star chart in the kitchen of the family home in Rothley to mark the times when she slept all night in her own bed. The existence of such a chart clearly implies she was a light sleeper prone to waking up and wandering in search of her parents.

Kate and Gerry spent the night of Madeleine's disappearance phoning friends and family instead of searching for Madeleine!

And what do the family and friends think about the fact that everything K&G told them has since been shown to have no grounds in truth?"

nancy said...

Viv -

The Dutch and Spanish connection!

Metodo 3 - the Spanish connection, who have proved to be as good as useless in finding Madeleine! Why did they choose them in the first place, and why do they keep paying a huge amount of money from the fund donated by the public on a company who are not professionals in that field. It's been asked many times, but we still have no answer from them or the Pink one.

The Dutch connection - just why did they go visiting Dutch friends when they were leaving no stone unturned for their daughter. You would think that visiting friends would be the last think on their minds.

Who will they be popping off to visit on their next trip to Strasbourg? Will that be another trip funded by the taxpayer and backed by David Milliband?

Kate says they are amateurs and very few people will have gone through what they have - they must think they are a special case, because many people have gone through exactly what they have but without the vast amount of assistance from so many quarters.

I would say they are professionals now rather than amateurs - amateurs don't get paid do they?

marga said...

Today in Gazeta Digital

11.6.08
European police organizes a child kidnap simulation
Portuguese and Spanish police officers will participate, as observers, on a simulated child's kidnapping, to take place on June 12. The simulation was proposed by the French Justice minister, Rachida Dati, in order to test the coordination of the authorities of all EU countries in these kind of crimes. The simulated kidnap will take place in France. A child from Luxembourg will be “kidnapped” by two police officers, who will try to drive her from France through Belgium, to an unknown destiny, using a car with a Dutch licence plate. Police from France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland will participate in the attempt to trace, find and arrest the “kidnappers”. UK police was also invited as an observer, but refused the invitation.

_____________



Hi and good bye you all!

I'm watching PT playing..


Atardi,
it was indeed Amesterdamer...

marga said...

PT police observing this simulation is a good thing IMO.

as I do not belong to the MopUnited in the so 200 blogpage contest, I give the opportunity to someone else.

LOL

nancy said...

Marga -

I think anything that will help prevent paedophiles from getting across borders is a good idea so good luck to the police who take part in this simulation.

On a similar theme, it seems that the McCanns have won the backing of 211 MEP's in their campaign backed by Hello Magazine to introduce a Europe wide child alert abduction scheme based on the USA alert system. The couple need a total of 393 signatories by the end of July. They are urging every MEP to sign in coming weeks.

If it was anyone but the McCanns doing this I would applaud but the audacity of this pair never ceases to amaze me. Far too late, they are trying to convince us all that they have childrens' interests at heart but their efforts unfortunately just come over as propaganda - they desperately want the public to see them as St. Gerry and St. Kate!!

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