12 Oct 2008

PORTUGUESE BEAUTY FELGUEIRAS STILL WAITING TO BE SUED!

AND SO AM I:-))) On sunny days like we have been enjoying of late, this is where the Writ can be served xxxxxxx
I wonder why Kate was particularly annoyed with Sandra?? I think she has provided some excellant reporting on this case, asking the McCanns the searching questions that needed to be ask, bravo Sandra!

A year later the McCanns clearly decide as they cannot beat Sandra they might as well join her. Sandra sits aghast as Kate makes the most shocking excuses for leaving the children again in this video, if you have not seen it and still think the McCanns may be innocent do please watch, I am sure it will change your mind!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MV4Ck61Favg

McCanns may sue over claims they killed Madeleine

By SAM GREENHILL
Last updated at 23:40 23 August 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are considering legal action to stem the endless tide of smears against themselves and their friends in the Portuguese media.

They have suffered a hurtful whispering campaign implying they or members of the group they dined with on the night their four-year-old daughter Madeleine disappeared had been involved in her murder or abduction.

The couple have endured the slurs with dignity, but now they appear to be ready to fight back.

Scroll down for more...

 Sandra Felgueiras

Top Portuguese TV presenter Sandra Felgueiras is said to have 'accused' Madeleine's mother

And one particular target appears to have fallen into their sights - glamorous Portuguese TV reporter Sandra Felgueiras.

For the Portuguese people, the blonde broadcaster has become the face of the Madeleine story, bringing live updates to their living rooms on national television station RTP.

But the McCanns are incensed over at least one live broadcast by Miss Felgueiras, 30, in which she is said to have implied Mrs McCann could have murdered her own daughter.

Now the McCanns are considering taking libel action under Portuguese human rights laws protecting the right to a 'good name', said a friend.

Police now believe Madeleine McCann may have died in the apartment

In the week leading up to the 100-day anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance, there was a flurry of media reports based on the police theory that the little girl died the night she vanished.

Some implied that the McCanns or their friends, with whom they were dining at the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz, were somehow involved in her disappearance.

A source close to the McCanns said: "This is about trying to stop lurid accusations being aired. She [Felgueiras] was outrageous that week in the run-up to the 100 days. She really was outrageous."

The source claimed Miss Felgueiras's report 'encouraged a media frenzy', adding: 'Both the McCanns are hard-working, law abiding professionals. It is very important to protect their reputation.'

The exact wording of Miss Felgueiras's live report is unknown, because nobody has specified which one of many is at issue.

Miss Felgueiras said last night she had no idea which report it might be and denied ever branding either of the McCanns a 'murderer'.

She said: "I never said that and I never insinuated anything like that. I never in my life put anyone under suspicion but just told viewers that police are investigating the possibility that Madeleine has died and that it is murder or an accident.

"I'm absolutely sure that everything I said was only what the police were telling us concerning this new lead of the investigation.

"If the McCanns presume that this is an accusation against them, then that is their assumption, not mine. My conscience is completely clear."

Miss Felgueiras, who has personally interviewed the McCanns on several occasions, added: "I am the most moderate reporter. Sometimes other channels talk about things that I refuse to talk about. I even made a live report saying everybody is innocent until they go to court.

"Also I never talk about Kate and Gerry in an isolated way, I always talk about the couple. So it's very strange to be accused of saying Kate did something."

The McCanns and their friends have been battling adverse publicity for the past three weeks following a series of leaks from Portuguese police to the local media.

The McCanns have been accused of doping their children to get them to sleep, leaving them alone for hours on end while getting drunk, and of mounting a cover-up.

Their holiday friends have been accused of giving conflicting accounts of the evening, and one, Dr Russell O'Brien, was forced to defend himself against the hurtful and untrue suggestion that he was 'missing' at the time Madeleine vanished.

Mr McCann is set to talk for the first time about how becoming "household names' has taken its toll on his family.

He will travel to the Edinburgh International Television Festival this weekend where he has been invited to speak about the "double-edged sword" of launching such a wide public appeal to try to get his daughter back.


759 comments:

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viv said...

mummy where were you last night when me and Sean were crying..

It was just a passing remark and she moved on

We were checking every 30 minutes there was a small window of opportunity and that person nearly got caught..by whom

by Jane! Ummm

viv said...

Just found this on Paulo Reis blog, very interesting! Just the right firm, clearly for the cash grabbing McCanns!


The Carter-Ruck chillThe man who created the modern libel industry was a dedicated liar and a reactionary with a lust for cashDavid Hooper The Guardian, Tuesday December 23 2003
Article history
The libel lawyer Peter Carter-Ruck, who died on Friday, had a chilling effect on the media. He was a chancer, out for the maximum fee. And he did for freedom of speech what the Boston Strangler did for door-to-door salesmen.

Until Carter-Ruck got his teeth into the libel law, actions were infrequent and inexpensive. But from the 1950s, Carter-Ruck became the leading libel lawyer and clients sought him out. He honed his menacing letters to encourage socialites to sue for imagined slights and fashion a weapon for politicians to suppress hostile stories. He preferred the bludgeon of the writ to the rather more effective call to an editor preferred by Lord Goodman. He established the idea that libel law was complicated and merited very high fees. In the process he became very rich. "I like to bill the clients as the tears are flowing," he told me.

Libel was good to him: four homes, a Rolls-Royce and a string of yachts called Fair Judgement. But perniciously he built a libel factory, paid for by the media's legal and insurance bills. Carter-Ruck had some novel techniques. You could only settle a libel action by paying his exorbitant fees without any question of the bill being checked by the court. He hit upon the wheeze of Randolph Churchill retaining all the libel QCs to prevent them acting for Private Eye (a practice since banned) and of serial libel actions, as in the case of Princess Elizabeth of Toro (which brought us the term "Ugandan discussions").

His practice had rightwing connections. With Carter-Ruck at the helm, the firm of Oswald Hickson Collier acted for the Conservative party and the likes of Norman Tebbit and Cecil Parkinson.

In his memoirs he praised the rightwing financier Sir James Goldsmith for alleviating the injustice of the lack of legal aid with money from a foundation. He said it let solicitors assess cases in the same way as the Legal Aid Board would. However, the assessor was none other than Carter-Ruck, and his firm was paid, win or lose. The beneficiaries tended not to be widows and orphans but rightwing politicos such as Neil Hamilton, who trousered £20,000 from the BBC for a Panorama programme - Carter-Ruck's bill was £240,000.

The Goldsmith Foundation's other beneficiaries included Brian Crozier, a cold war enthusiast with intelligence links, and an official of the breakaway Union of Democratic Mineworkers who sued Arthur Scargill.

Once described as the Margaret Thatcher of defamation law, Carter-Ruck was a conviction libel lawyer. If he acted for the plaintiff, he thought it the most outrageous libel; if for the defendant, the case should never have been bought. The common thread was to extract the maximum.

Carter-Ruck had one row after another with his partners. In 1977 they tried to boot him out and after four years' litigation were successful when he decamped to another part of the same building to form Peter Carter-Ruck & Partners. Within four years all his founding partners had left, including his daughter.

I left his firm in pure Carter-Ruck circumstances. Heinemann, for whom we acted, was publishing a book about the Ford family, by Robert Lacey. I was told by Carter-Ruck that there was no conflict in our advising. Lacey sent part of the book to Henry Ford for comment. Later I found Carter-Ruck advising Ford that the book was full of libel. He proved unable to give a truthful explanation.

Cases brought by Tudor Roberts, a solicitor, and the journalist Derek Jameson illustrate the Carter-Ruck techniques. In 1985 Roberts was awarded £20,000 damages against Private Eye plus costs on the higher scale. I agreed before I left Carter-Ruck's firm that he would only pay the costs recoverable from Private Eye. Carter-Ruck, however, billed Roberts £60,000. The cost judge allowed only £18,567. My assurance was ignored. Carter Ruck wanted the lot. It was two years before Roberts was reimbursed his damages and the legal costs he had earlier paid.

Derek Jameson, as a tabloid editor, had been unwisely advised to sue the BBC over a satirical sketch. Carter-Ruck said Jameson would get £25,000-£50,000. David Eady QC advised Carter-Ruck in writing that Jameson accept the £10 that the BBC had offered in settlement plus his costs. Carter-Ruck concealed this opinion from Jameson. Jameson lost the case and was sent a bill by Carter Ruck for £41,342.50. When he learned by chance of the QC's pessimistic advice, Carter-Ruck told him a string of lies.

· David Hooper is a media lawyer and was a partner of Peter Carter-Ruck

dsh@rpc.co.uk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/de ... ng.comment

08 October 2008 14:15

bath theory said...

Even after this time their body language and utterances lack sincerity, integrity and soul.

I feel the Portugese should order them to return to face a straightforward negligence hearing in order to ascertain what happened that week and that night. Importantly, it should be shown live on television and it should make a point of calmly asking all those police questions KH refused to answer in the police station plus many more.

This couple are laughing all the way to the bank at the moment.

viv said...

Hiya BT

With so much of their ill gotten gains spent on PR companies etc (Private Detectives in McCann speak) and the fact that their plans to get the public on side and then cash in big time did not work out (all those film and book deals Mitchell was talking about, but now he has gone!), plus Kate lost her job, I do not think they could be laughing all the way to the bank, not quite..

And even if they do have more than me, I would not trade places with them for anything at all, what does money bring if you have nothing else! villified child killers, let them get on with it, justice will find a way, I just know it!

Justice does not happen in such a public way, but it will happen!


xxxxxxxx

nancy said...

Hi Viv -

I don't think any of these trumped up charges of libel the McCanns have come up with will ever happen. I doubt that the McCanns will put themselves in the position of having to defend their actions for the whole world to see - there have been too many discrepancies in their version of events.

They have gone completely silent since CM left and the only reason they sued the DX was because he was there to use his influence. They sought the world wide media coverage before Madeleine's disappearance had hardly been noticed by the rest of the world, and they expect the media not to react at all! Just why did they give all these personal interviews?They knew exactly what they were doing and it was to make as much money as possible.

I notice on the McCann Files that they are paying out £50,000 a month on fees for their private investigators - another Carter Ruck lot by the sound of them! I bet that blatant capitalist and schyster is quaking in his boots at those pearly gates right now!

Hi BT -

You are right, but I don't think it will happen somehow. The only thing we can hope for is that someone opens up for the media one of these days and does a kiss and tell! Right now the McCanns and their pals seem to have the walls of Jericho to protect them!

nancy said...

Senor Anes to sue the Sun, according to the McCann Files. Let's hope this time it will happen and reintroduce the whole case of Madeleine's disappearance to the world again! There is a deathly silence at the moment which is decidedly unhealthy and reeks of political interference.

I'm off for the day but will look in again this evening. Have a lovely Sunday everyone.

Love your farden by the way Viv - is it your own work or are you lucky enough to have a professional in to do it?

Nx

hope4truth said...

Morning ALL

Another Beautiful October Day!!!!!!

I will be in my Farden Latter off into town first with my youngest as she needs some new clothes (again)...

Enjoy the day all wherever you may be sunshine makes you glad to be alive!!!!!!

See you all later xxx

hope4truth said...

Oh Dear

I have read this before somewhere but the Mail have printed the below link today about McCann's Detectives Claiming £50K a month...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076677/50-000-monthly-expenses-McCann-8217-s-private-eyes.html

Sadly people seem to react to miss spent cash especialy if given in good faith.

I wonder why this negitive article has been printed today???

isis said...

Morning Viv and all, interesting article. Sandra F has always had the ability to make gerry twitch and twiddle with his face. They will never step inside a courtroom to sue anyone, if they did , the onus would be on them to back up their story which it is glaringly obvious there are holes the size of the mouth of the chanel tunnel in. Same goes for ther mates who are just as much lying by omission.

isis said...

Morning Hope, interesting reading that article how clarences job description now encompasses ... spokesplank for the find madeleine fund!!

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

Thanks for posting the video link Viv. I have seen that before and it was good to be reminded how pathetic this pair are, imo. What did the father of the child he claims was taken from her bed by paedophiles find so funny when asked if he would share what happened that evening? FFS! It also is a good reminder of how pathetic the UK Press/Media are when it comes to these people. The UK must be the laughing stock of the World. As for P/Pops intimidation of Sassy. Well Sassy the only laughing stock in Foraworld is he/she/it and the dwindling support they have. Sassy you were banned from your own Blog and are protecting your character the only way you can in Foraworld. Nobody believes their lies.

BBFN off out will read you all later. Enjoy you Sunday.

hope4truth said...

Hello Hapless Hope here again the idiot who believes we are all human and some people deserve respect while others just demand it...

Bellow two posts from Sassy's blog (hope she dosent mind me copying them)...

From reading Tulip and Sass they are far to inteligent to have been posting where they were (I know it was Sass's blog) but the worse thing for the Pro's and RP is if these two had been allowed to post in this way they may have even convinced me that Madeleine was really missing (maybe not) but many of the posts about Gerry and Kate have shaped my opinion of them just trying to save their own necks.

I think it is pretty obvious who the double agent is who stirs the most and gets her kicks out of reprinting things that are just going to cause problems and make the site look bad? Her anti name is so bloody obvious was nice chatting via e mail with her she is none to bright though!!!!

Funny how MT wanted to save us all from evil Viv as we were scared of her LOL I did not think for one minute that the Pro Blog was intimidating people to post by phoneing them and aplying preasure how discusting and for any of you that fell for it and have ganged up on some of the people who had the guts to stand up for themselves shame on you. Bullies are pathetic get a back bone and post what you want to. Not being funny but you may do more good for the McCanns than carrying on with your angles and rainbows...


Sunday, 12 October 2008
Message from Tulip
I resigned from the blog (mum banned me after I'd left, not what she told HelenM) and ST does not publish my comments., So Sass has offered me the hospitality of this blog to reply.

1. As Rosie had told me she was not reading messages from me, there was only one admin left to submit my resignation to. So I pm'd Tinks and told her politely and precisely why I was leaving -- namely that there was no debate allowed and that everyone had to toe Rosie's line or be flattened. Obviously Tinks would pass the pm on to Rosie (that was the intention). Sly?

2. To the funny little anon who keeps popping up like a Greek Chorus: I speak Afrikaans, so I must be Southern Cross! I also know German, French, Italian and Latin. That makes me Adolf Hitler, Napoleon, Mussolini and Juluis Caesar. Have never posted anywhere under any name but Tulip and never once on the green blog. Sorry.

Now back to my infinitely more interesting life.

Tulip
Message from Sass
ST's has been providing a great deal of entertainment for all and sundry with two evenings of rants by some people from the Purple Place. Unbelievable false accusations have been flying around. Different versions of the same story have been given. It is obvious that the Purple Place members and mods have been given half truths, too, which, incredibly, they believe.


You can believe that I was passing on information to the antis - I wasn't, but that won't go through your skulls. That gives plenty of opportunity for the person really doing it (and let's face it we know who that is, because we discussed it before I left) to carry on doing so. Your logic of "it must be Sass because she is one of those who knew about it" isn't even ridiculous - it's way beyond that.


You have been caught out and you are digging yourselves a bigger hole trying to repair the damage.


-------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to all those from both sides of the McCann argument for the kind comments via the green blog or e-mail. (Although this is a perfectly innocent remark, I am sure it will be jumped upon)

hope4truth said...

Just watched the video link and wonder why Kate thought that when Madeleine woke up she must have gone straight back to sleep? If she had cried for 29 Minutes and they really were checking every half an hour they would not have known?

Also she gives herself away by saying you dont think that someone was in the room trying to take her??? Madeleine said she was crying Kate children do at many diffrent times but in bed in the dark in a strange room she was probebly scared of the shadow..

The thought of a young child being left alone in this way is really upsetting every noise and shadow is frightining at that age yet Kate thinks it could only have been someone trying to take her?

Poor child

Cláudia said...

How could the Tapas not have their mobiles with them if according to Gerry's statements everytime the children were put in the creche there was a record of the time (of entrance and exit) and a contac number (I assume in case anything happened), as well as a location of the parents? Certainly the nannies wouldn't call England, would they?...

bath theory said...

Hi Nancy

McCann files is interesting...

'...Former police officers are now being interviewed by Mr Kennedy to take over responsibility for the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.'

AGAIN - we all ask why take such a PERSONAL involvement here. Find that out and the chain is broken. That bloke is a busy bloke but he is extending his time to possible child killers? why? His link to Uppingham and his Scottish link is intriguing. Or maybe he is a bigwig freemason and he took over when freemason Branson decided to U turn on them. I don't know but what I do know about life is a corporate bloke like that would not get involved unless their was a personal interest.

Time will get them and if it don't their own children will work it out in anycase.

Wizard said...

Hi One and All,

I have just been reading on 3A’s Michael Wright's statement (MW a cousin of Kate’s). He says on the 7th - 9th Sept – he helped clean the villa.

He knew about the Renault Espace - Kate collected him from the airport on July 12th. He drove the car regularly in Aug and Sept.

He mentions a number of refuse sites were used during the cleaning of the villa. Two areas on the villa estate, at the main entrance and at the top of the hill. A site on Cemetery Road, a site on a road above the MW complex and a site between the villa and the church.

He says on a number of occasions he noticed an unpleasant smell in the vehicle that he put down to the twins used nappies which had been discarded with the general waste.

Does anyone else find the use of all these different rubbish sites odd why not just pick one and stick with it. Why were so many visits necessary between the 7th and 9th September surely one or two visits would have been enough. Wright tells us of the smell in the Scenic which he suggests was dirty nappies – Mr Wright is a father of young children wouldn’t he be able to call the smell dirty nappies rather than he thinks it was nappies. I seem to remember somewhere a neighbour said the back door of the Scenic was left open all night to get rid of the smell. Also Wright tells us of a site on Cemetery Road presumably where a cemetery is. If this cemetery was in current use wouldn’t this be a good place to originally hide a body?

Strange goings on.

bath theory said...

Wizard
Extremely interesting about the cousin and this article. As a father of two boys who have fairly recently left nappies I can agreee with you that the PONG is indeed a recognisable PONG, no doubt shit is shit.

But to be able to smell a dead body or body parts would surely take a trained nose. Say a Doctor would be able to say FLESH is FLESH or maybe say a sniffer dog specially trained in recognising such a smell. Presumably thats why Eddie and Keela confirmed what we suspected. As we have stated many times that IS EVIDENCE especially backed up by witness statements.

If this Mr.Wright was in court saying the back door of the Scenic was regularly left open and he smelt a strange odour it does not add up - AND THE REASON IS SIMPLE IF YOU THINK STRAIGHT.... if you or I hired a car that had a bloody strange odur in it we would simply get it replaced. If the odour story is true and the McCann's didn't ask for a replacement and kept the back door open at night then there is one conclusion - they were involved in her death and were hiding the body as Amaral and most of UK think.

bath theory said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bath theory said...

It doesn't take Columbo to work it out, what it takes is facts and analysis based on common sense.

That is why dodgy people are keen to blur facts and worse - dress opinion up as facts. Without facts assumptions and hypothesis cannot be properly tested and results concluded.

Knowing what we all know to date let alone the stuff we don't there is enough to charge these two.

It is only the political interference that is keeping them out of jail. And politics is a fickle thing isn't it.

TIME waits for no man and father time will do these two. I am 110 per cent sure of that and I believe they have realised it now too.

dylan said...

Good evening all,

It has been such lovely weather today that we were able to eat lunch outside :-) A balmy 18 degrees C!

Wrt to Madeleine crying and Kate's answer to that, I suspect that M didn't mention it again because either she was told to shut-up, or the poor girl knew she wasn't likely to get any sympathy. How could Kate just pass that off as an indication that it was fine by Madeleine and not worth dwelling on?? - And, therefore, a green light to do it again? I find that totally insulting, both to Madeleine and the twins and to the audience that watched the interview. Surely a normal parental response (not that leaving your children to join friends on the p*ss is normal) would be to ask them why they were upset? How did you feel? Were you afraid?..... and then to give them a cuddle to confort them, say you are sorry and NOT do it AGAIN!

The boot smell is a little strange but I'd imagine that nappy smells wouldn't be immediately identifiable, as such, over the smell of the rotting meat. Yuck! As a vegetarian, the thought of that smell turns my stomach more than the thought of the nappies!

Hope you've all had a lovely sunny day too.

xx

docmac said...

Hello all

Have not yet had the time to read. Nice to see you around, BT. Dyl you have mail.

viv said...

Hiya all

Nancy said: Senor Anes to sue the Sun, WHAT FANTASTIC NEWS. This bunch of McCann loving liars need to be dealt a blow for Justice! I wonder Gerry, if this takes place, will The NOW/Sun still be your favourite rags, or will you get right under that stone, if you can?

As for did I get professionals in to do my garden Nancy, no way!! Being gardeners is very much in my family from my father's mother whose garden used to fascinate me when I was little to my own mother who has a beautiful large garden and at 82 still tends to, even a productive veg plot - she is fitter than me! Luke and Martin (mainly Luke) hard landscaping and I do all the planting! I confess though I do not find it as easy as I used to and hence it has a slightly wilder feel which the birds adore!


xxx

viv said...

Presumably Mitchell but not wishing to be quoted telling us what their campaign is all about "trying to stop lurid allegations being aired and it is very important to protect their ****Reputations**** - they are "law abiding and hard working".

Well I for one was never in any doubt what their campaign was about, protecting their reputations and a small fortune has been frittered on it, but, as, ever no mention of little Madeleine. A waste of time because as they have always known she is no more, even in the first few days Gerry's slip ups were making plain, mentally, he had already dismissed Madeleine from the family.

I saw no indication of them being law abiding and hard working in PDL and I still do not see it now either. What about being law abiding and hard working PARENTS! In Kate's case I see a woman who could be earning a lot of money to pay for the supposed search for her daughter but who still demands money from everyone else!But having said that, can anyone see any GP Surgery wanting her "services" an admitted expert in handling dead bodies? Surely not what medicine is all about? Maybe she missed her vocation and should have gone on to become a pathologist!

And I still want to know why it is the personal concern of Kennedy!

--------------

FROM THE DAILY MAIL ARTICLE, I THOUGHT THE WAY THEY PUT THE PICTURES OF KATE AND SANDRA SIDE BY SIDE AND EMPHASISED THE EMNITY BETWEEN THEM WAS PRETTY POINTED!


A source close to the McCanns said: "This is about trying to stop lurid accusations being aired. She [Felgueiras] was outrageous that week in the run-up to the 100 days. She really was outrageous."

The source claimed Miss Felgueiras's report 'encouraged a media frenzy', adding: 'Both the McCanns are hard-working, law abiding professionals. It is very important to protect their reputation.'

viv said...

'...Former police officers are now being interviewed by Mr Kennedy to take over responsibility for the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.'


I am sure the selection process is quite identical to that adopted when finally selecting Metodo 3. In any profession, if you look long enough and hard enough you can always find a bent example who will like money so much he will say what he is paid to say, much like being on RP's blog!

The thing is any senior ex policeman who did take this case on would be a marked man, so far as his integrity is concerned. Maybe that is why we still have no news of one actually being appointed!

Search away Kennedy, I suspect the average decent copper has your measure! More than a "bit of a rough diamond" one suspects. Oh, just my opinion of course, Mr Kennedy!

viv said...

Wizard Hello!

Oh my goodness Michael Wright's statement is a bit of disaster for Team McCann!

One has to consider why the Police wanted a statement from him. Surely to explain why, in between 7 and 9 September he was "helping to clean the McCann's villa" and why "there was such a revolting smell emanating from the McCanns hire car" and why "it was necessary to visit a number of different tips".

How much filth could they have actually accumulated in this villa in just a few months that they needed family to help clean it all up and keep going to the tip! The mind boggles and clearly the more tips that were used the more difficult it would be for the police to find anything!

As for leaving the boot open overnight because of the smell, words really do fail! Clearly anyone hiring such a vehicle, almost brand new would complain, unless they knew exactly what that smell was. How disgusting!

x

dylan said...

Hi Viv!

Well they weren't very law abiding when they left their three tots on thier own were they?!!

I think you do a great job with your farden. I do try hard with mine and despite it being tiny, I never seem to get it looking lovely and tidy and last time I weeded, I got a nasy burn on my arm from God knows what plant!

You got mail BTW, it's regarding another missing little girl who's parents are naturally frantic.

Docmac, thanks for your email. Aw! Adorable, and that axe looks bigger than he is!! He looked thrilled to bits :-)))))

Off to indulge in a bit of sofa time. BBL

xx

viv said...

Hiya Claudia

Cláudia said...

How could the Tapas not have their mobiles with them if according to Gerry's statements everytime the children were put in the creche there was a record of the time (of entrance and exit) and a contac number (I assume in case anything happened), as well as a location of the parents? Certainly the nannies wouldn't call England, would they?...


---
Well of course we know that Clarence Mitchell told a blatant lie for the McCanns and their cronies, they never had watches or mobiles. We have seen I dont know how many pictures of the publicity grabbing McCanns with those watches and mobiles and clearly it would be very irresponsible to dump your child all day everyday and then remain incommunicado, much as I can imagine they may have wished to, I am sure the Creche wanted their contact numbers as indeed any agency charged with acting in loco parentis do, by law!


xxx

viv said...

Hiya Dillie

Well funny you should say about getting a nasty burn when weeding. I have very good soil and stingers just love to grow in very good soil. Every now and then I tackle them armed with stout jumper and gloves but somehow the buggers always manage to bite my sensitive skin!

I will go and check my mail for this site which I confess I do not do very often! It can be a lengthy task!

xxxxxx

viv said...

correction: "former" publicity grabbing McCanns. Since release of the PJ file they have crawled under a rock, hoping to weather the storm and dismissed their PR man, conceding he had an impossible job trying to make them look like hard working and loving parents!


JFM!

Cláudia said...

This is one of many reasons why I am proud of my country and of my people:

"As several British and Portuguese journalists who have decided to work in the search for truth about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I was threatened, insulted, denigrated ... More recently, as my colleague Paulo Reis, I received threats of prosecution from a law firm being paid by Kate and Gerry McCann. This kind of threat that often tells me I'm on the right track, so I decided to continue my work and I continue to write about this strange case or the justice of two nations seems to have forgotten that real victim is named Madeleine. Duarte Levy 12.10.2008"

hope4truth said...

Hi Viv and All who are not on their sofas...

Your child is missing do you give a toss about your reputation until she is found alive and well...?

Maybe we are all a bit simple on here and cant think of anything we would not do anywhere we would not search or any question we would not answer if we believed our child was in the hands of anyone who may harm them..

Then leaving children alone to go to a bar would not be something (I hope) any of us would ever think about doing in the first place...

How can you save a reputation when you have behaved in such a discusting way to three small children???

viv said...

Hiya Claudia

You have every reason to be proud of Portuguese journalists who have done a great job in accurately reporting the facts in this case.

Libel law is consistently used by those whose own actions have destroyed their reputation but they desperately seek to convince the public they are nice people after all. The thing is nice people never need to bother with threatening other people, it is just not a nice thing to do!


Maybe Paulo Reis and Duarte Levy should ask the McCanns for a live interview with the McCanns like Sandra did, I am sure the McCanns would just love to get back out from under that rock and face the world again!

xxxxx

viv said...

Being under a rock is a cold dark place, Kate knows exactly how Madeleine must have felt, now..

She just moved on and I just went and did it again, your heartless bitch!

viv said...

Claudia

Do you know if we have any explanation of why Kate McCann had all those dangerous medicines prescribed for her father?

Viv x

viv said...

Elderly Pamela Fenn liked to sit out her balcony directly above the McCanns' apartment at night.

Kate McCann: I just mentioned it (Madeleine and Sean crying the night before) in case it was relevant. It certainly was relevant and she just mentioned it was because it was not beyond her intellect to work out Pamela Fenn clearly heard her poor childen crying for parents who did not give a damn!

viv said...

ModNrodder said...

12 October 2008 17:05

Anon,

Ask a parent of any missing child and ask them what is the best thing that could happen to help them. Your answer will be more support.

Support is positive, hopeful, helpful and constructive.

Anything else is negative.
12 October 2008 21:56

Yes, it is very negative to suggest that what happened to Madeleine is exactly the same as happens to 95% of children who just disappear in strange circumstances, the parents killed her.

You are on the correct site full of fairies! When are you going to manage to move into the real world and accept the danger that some children are in, including when left on their own to cry, you want to support such people? It does not say much for you, does it?

docmac said...

Hi Viv

Nodding off here already and I still have things to do :-( This is one of the very few pros currently posting on ST and the purple turtle that you think has any intelligence. You sure?

chinadoll said...

Anon 17.05,

The McCanns and in particular Madeleine, were unfortunate to be targeted by an abductor (to say the least) as hundreds of thousands of families have used similar listening/checking routines/services to monitor their little ones in family friendly resorts such as Mark Warner type holidays. Regardless of whether such methods were paid for or not, they were once accepted and regularly used. The tragic abduction of Madeleine has highlighted just how unsafe such practices are (even though statistically, this is not the case) and has further drawn powerful backing to systems that should be deployed after such a tragedy ie Amber Alert.


12 October 2008 21:28

docmac said...

I think ModNrodder meant financial support Viv.

Cláudia said...

Viv, no, I have no idea. I just heard that Kate's father is/was sick.

I just got an e-mail from Mr Anes (I had written to him to warn him about the Sun article). He, once again, denied any interview and said he was acting against that poor excuse of newspaper.

viv said...

Mod n Rodder also proclaims:

Innocent parents? Of couse they are. The law has concluded that.

The only way that guilt or innocence can be definitively determined is by a court of law having tested all of the available evidence which has not taken place!

Lawyers can of course give their opinion on what a court may determine based on the available evidence. I would remind you that there is not simply the issue of guilt or innocence they may be the conclusion drawn, it may be that on the basis of the available evidence, neither guilt nor innocence can be definitively pronounced. So please do tell me which lawyer has proclaimed they are innocent. I think you will find that what lawyers are actually saying is that whilst there are clear indicators Madeleine died and the parents are involved, there was insufficient evidnence available in a PORTUGUESE court (and this is very important) to be certain beyond reasonable doubt the McCanns killed Madeleine. What is certain beyond any reasonable doubt is that she died in that apartment, the reason the case cannnot proceed at present is because there is no precise evidence of exactly who brought about that state of affairs! The other clear problem is that Madeleine's body has not been found and this would have clearly yielded vital evidence. One thing we can be certain of there was not even any possibility of there being an abduction, let alone evidence of it! No wonder the McCanns cannot find a tame ex detective to say so - he would make himself a laughing stock! Imagine him going for a drink in his local and everyone turning the other way as he walked in, a man they formerly respected, that is what would happen, money is not they key to everything, being able to live with yourself is, to normal decent human being anyway!

Do not in future presume to say what the law has proclaimed when you do not have a clue what you are talking about!

docmac said...

mark55 said...

Chinadoll,

I stayed at the Watergate Bay Hotel near Newquay in august.It's quite an upmarket hotel . They still run a baby listening service but issue guests with a two way intercom . The intercom , you are advised has quite a range .So much so that you can leave the hotel and eat in Fifteen Cornwall (Jamie Oliver's restaurant) which is a good 100 yards away .

The restaurant does not allow children under seven to eat in the evening and 7 to 12 year olds are only allowed to eat at 7.00 pm .

I think this puts the McCann's actions in some sort of context even if you don't agree with them .
We took our nannny with us and didn't use the baby listening service .


12 October 2008 21:56

From their own website:

"Baby listening 7. 30am – 10. 30pm
The Hotel operates a baby listening service. This is an electronic system activated by noise and used in conjunction with our telephone system. Responsibility for the child remains with the parents at all times and it is recommended that parents check on their children regularly.
Parents are not permitted to leave the hotel grounds when using the baby listening service."


PS: I would tell them to stuff their listening service where the sun don't shine.
PPS: Your googling skills need polishing.

viv said...

Thanks Doc

I have to say it does amuse me that when seriously challenged Barky Marky does several days googling before coming back with a bit more. I do not think he is so stupid he could not have read on, I think he takes the bits from google that support his argument and then makes the rest up. You have convincingly confirmed that.

This does pose the question, why does Barky Marky lie for Kate and Gerry McCann?

Why did he say he was at Birmingham University in 1968 when on his own account he was aged 15! Why is it that he cannot tell us what was really happening in Birmingham in 1968, because what he can find on the internet is somewhat limited.

Man or boy he is a complete joke!

xxx

Cláudia said...

Doc, any normal parent knows that their children are their own responsibility. Period. Those electronic devises should only be used if you are one or two rooms away from the child. Where I live, if someone knew of a toddler alone in a hotel room, people would call the police.

docmac said...

Hi Claudia

Viv, will be back in a bit if you are still around ;-)

viv said...

Hiya Doc

Kate and Gerry McCann are intelligent educated people but they still talk pure rubbish. Chinadoll provides a good example of that.

If you listen to testimony in court of intelligent, educated people who are lying through their teeth they often sound quite stupid! But admitting what they have done is not a place they want to go...

xxx

Cláudia said...

Hi, Doc! :-)

viv said...

Claudia

he tries to make excuses for the conduct of Kate and Gerry McCann whilst at the same time telling us that his own children were left with a nanny. I do not believe this silly person's grandiose lies for one minute but he is clearly contradicting himself here, what he is actually saying is that behaviour was not what he would have done and is not acceptable after all! Not that we needed to be told that.

If I was in a hotel and I thought for one moment any couple had left their tiny tots in the room to cry, they would be in trouble, I would make certain of that! But the reality is, in my own experience of going abroad anyway, this is just NOT what people do, they always take the children with them and if they are little and they are tired, they are in their buggy, something the McCanns claim they did not even bother to take. I am not sure I believe that, but this in itself is bizarre with three tiny tots and certainly would emphasise how much time they planned to spend on holiday with their little children, just as much as they did, ZERO. Dumped DAY AND NIGHT. I have said this from day one and I am not going to stop saying it, because it says so clearly what this couple are..

Cláudia said...

Viv, no normal parent leaves a small child alone anywhere to eat. Period.

viv said...

Hiya Claudia

I have always said that this in itself is a clear predictor of the risk of harm that these particular parents posed to their children. It is against that backgroun they fall to be judged and no matter what they say, as the interview with Sandra confirms, there is no good gloss they can place on the decision to just go out again and leave them to cry. On the contrary it only serves to add credence to the claims that Kate McCann had medications that were used to make sure they did not embarrass them in that way again, and this led to the sad demise of little Maddie. This is clearly manslaughter and very close to murder, no wonder they will not admit a thing! That is their legal advice..

docmac said...

Well, I am a little refreshed now, but won't stay long :-))

I enjoyed the attempted name-dropping. Jamie Oliver's Fifteen restaurants are RUBBISH!

Cláudia said...

Sleep well, my dear friends.

Doc and Viv, beijinhos. Durmam bem.

Boa noite, all.

docmac said...

Boa noite Claudia. Dorme bem.

viv said...

Hiya Doc

I do not know whether Jamie Oliver's restaurants are "upmarket" but there is nothing upmarket about child abuse although as the McCanns demonstrate the class they moved into does not change what they basically are.

As for upmarket hotels offering services to abusive parents, that is all news to me and kind of avoids the issue that actually the McCanns did not bother to pay for any childcare services!

Good Night both
Viv xxxxxxxxxxxx

docmac said...

Viv

I don't think it possible to surmise that Maddie's death was caused purely by an overdose of any medication.

docmac said...

Night Viv.

viv said...

Hiya Doc

I do not think Maddie's death was caused purely by an overdose of sedative medication. Eddie and Keela did not just mark a cadaver behind the sofa but blood. Either she was wounded or she fell. You know what I personally think about this family where there was clearly disharmony and a lot of alcohol used. Kate was loud and out of control the night before and would not sleep with Gerry and was covered in bruises, the evidence of violence is clearly there!

Goncalo Amaral fairly puts the mildest interpretation on the evidence and I do support him in that, at the very least Madeleine was killed by extreme neglect amounting to manslaughter, but there are other issues, some of which it is plainly best not to mention in view of the limited evidence available.


xx

viv said...

Doc have you seen this! Clearly they now seek to enter into a snobbery competition lol?!

ST who talks of "defamating" people now tries to suggest he has a University education and BUM's husband (cannot imagine why she gets excluded) is on first name terms with "Richard". These contrived posts, just a few minutes apart, really are a joke!

Mum21 said...

Hi ST, It has been a beautiful day here again. Did you get the sunshine too?
Far to nice to spend my day on the computer.
By the way, my husband spent part of the afternoon at the home of Mrs Branson (Richards mother).
They are a truly lovely family...and from what I gather Richard does not do U turns (as Viv stated on her blog) They live just a mile away from us in a beautiful Manor House.
12 October 2008 23:46
supertroll said...

Hi Mum21,

I had a lovely day thank you. Had lunch with two old friends from University, followed by a long walk by the waterfront.

I think Viv is jealous of successful people like Richard so she must have been raging when he offered to help the McCanns.

Her slurs and the lies she posts say a lot more about her than anything else.
12 October 2008 23:52

docmac said...

Yes, I saw that. LOL!!!

docmac said...

BTW, maybe Bum's husband spent part of the afternoon at Mrs Branson's searching for the postbox.

As for jealousy of Dickie, well! The man's a tosser of the highest order. It's like being jealous of Kate Moss.

docmac said...

Oh, now they are saying your pond is not big enough for a magnificent Koi collection, their ducks or their wild fowl visitors.

Freudian slip? The word is wildfowl. Perhaps 'wild foul visitors' may be a truer statement :-))

docmac said...

With that, goodnight.

docmac said...

OK, couldn't resist this.

Anonymous said...

Viv lives on the 11th floor of a 20storey grey building part of a large council estate in the midlands.

13 October 2008 00:33

Goodness me, Viv. They know EVERYTHING about you! Join us in Beja for a holiday. You must have such a grey, mundane life :-)

viv said...

lol Doc, well we have seen no pics of their koi, their parrot, their wilfowl etc, or indeed my er grey council flat, what a bunch of jealous, sad people!

viv said...

Hi all it would see a new poster of ours, Jane has left comments on a couple of threads we are no longer posting on, as this one was rather interesting I have copied it here and asked Jane to post on the current thread.

Welcome, Jane and look forward to hearing from you, no matter which side of the debate you used to be on!

Viv x
Jane has left a new comment on your post "MADELEINE : EXTROVERT OR SHY?":

Hi all,
I get a bit confused by all the banter that goes on here as I don't know any of you and aren't following what you are saying LOL but i just wanted to touch on my own feelings regarding the whole extrovert/shy stuff.
My daughter who started kindy this year had Zero problem in going in fact she was "see ya mum" i was the one who got in the car and wept!
But yet other children who have been in daycare every day, and or left at friends/grandparents etc whilst the parents went out , went away on holiday etc , were clinging to their mothers legs, and still 9 months down the track they cling to the teacher as well, they have real anxiety issues of being left (and is it any wonder)
But my daughter and other children by stay at home mums with similar parenting viewpoints have happy outgoing non clingy children
The fact that Madeleine was continuously dumped/left with other people to care for her would in NO way have made her extroverted. In the childs mind it comes down to abandonment.
To this day I believe they drugged her so they could go party, and either gave too much or she fell and hurt herself resulting in her death.
I see eerie parallels with the Caylee Anthony case also.
Two beautiful Children aged 2 abandoned so that their parents could party/socialize..eventuating in their disappearance (read that as ) death
If people want to dump their kids then why have them to begin with :(



Posted by Jane to JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS at Wednesday, 8 October 2008 03:01:00 o'clock BST

viv said...

Thinking about that Jane I can personally relate to what you say. There was only one of my children who really cried after me when being taken to school my middle one. He went in hospital for 6 days aged 3 and was very distressed by nursing staff insisting I went home each night and left him and I do not think he got over this. Of course modern thinking is that parents should stay with their children whilst they are in hospital. Any feeling in a small child of being abandoned by their parent is bound to cause intense distress and really does demonstrate how unfeeling and cruel Kate's dismissal of little Maddie's comments actually were. It also makes you wonder how much damage has been done to Sean by this, let alone the loss to both the twins of little Maddie which would undoubtedly be of very grave concern from a pyschological point of view. Not that it would seem, Kate and Gerry bother to address this issue, my heart really goes out to these poor little mites!


Viv x

hope4truth said...

Morning Viv

You have mail...

My Children were happy to go to school but between Mr Hope and I there was and still is always someone at home for them. I know not everyone is lucky enough to be able to mix and match work and have to use childcare but we did not want to miss anything...

15 years has shot past so quickly....

I cant believe that hotels still have baby listening services it is a fair point though when booking a Hotel in the future I will ask if they have such a service and if the answer is yes I wont book a room...

It is frightining that anyone would trust random hotel workers who have keys to rooms who would know if a child had been left alone???

As for Restaraunts who dont allow children thank god there are still some that dont especialy as there seem to be so many parents who dont give a damn what their child is doing as long as they are running round someone elses table and leaving them alone...

There are plently of places to take a child with you to eat though and not one reason to leave them alone in a hotel while you sod off and have fun.

So Mum's husband was with Mrs Branson for the afternoon she said she had a problem with her drains poor thing muck everywhere glad he sorted it...

xxx

Niki said...

Kalimera:-)

Just when everyone are accusing the McCanns for hiding under a rock...:

Gerry's Blog
Day 528: 12/10/2008 Day: 528

First of all I want to apologise for not updating this blog for so long. I would like to assure everyone that this gap is not because there is little going on in the search for Madeleine. On the contrary, Kate and I have been incredibly busy over the last couple of months since the PJ files were made public. We and our family have always vowed to leave no stone unturned in the search for our daughter and knowing exactly what has been done and, more importantly, what has not been done is vital in planning our future strategy.

Getting the files translated accurately is a time consuming and expensive process but essential to our search. There is a huge amount of information contained within the files which we have not been party to until now and this needs to be assessed carefully. This is even more important as the Portuguese investigation is officially closed.

In some ways, although this task is monumental, it has been good for us doing being something active and positive which we believe may help find Madeleine. We are also using this period to get advice to maximise our effectiveness and efficiency in our overall strategy going forward. Keeping Madeleine’s image in the public eye will continue to be important and the distribution of posters is central to that aim.

Many people have also asked us what is happening with the Amber alert after the successful adoption of the written declaration by the European Parliament. It has been relatively quiet due to the summer recess but hopefully the momentum gained, added to the desire of the European Commission to for an Amber Alert system, will affect change in the near future.

Finally we would like to thank everyone for their continued, support, prayers and letters. I promise to do another update in the near future. We will be looking at how the website functions, as the main portal of the find Madeleine campaign, and perhaps future updates will be via another route rather than my blog. Why don’t you let us know what you think by e-mail messages of support?

nancy said...

Good morning everyone!

Breaking news on the McCann Files.

It seems that CM is still getting his tuppence worth in. He says that Oakley International, the US firm engaged to find Madeleine, have been sacked. Well, well, well! So a few more hundred thousand quid down the drain! This apparently in spite of a vote of confidence in the Find Madeleine Fund at the end of August! Who next I wonder to fill the breach, or are things quietly being wound down now they have sold all the tacky T shirts, wrist bands etc. Gerry hasn't blogged since August last so maybe he's suffering from repetitive strain injury from counting all those ill gotten gains.

hope4truth said...

Morning Niki

How are you?

I have read a lot of the files for free on the 3As and other sites I wonder why it is costing them so much..

Amber Alert I think is a waste of time if every missing child in Europe is flashed across my screen I will zone out sadly as the many false sightnings of Madeleine have proved many children look the alike. How the McCanns have claimed this as their own is beyond me.

Working very hard? How exactly by wasting money on your fraud investigation firm?

Amber Alert will do nothing to help neglected children left alone by their parents to cry either...

nancy said...

Correction -

Just reading back, I see that Gerry has at last made a blog! I notice he didn't mention Oakley International! He and Kate have been incredibly busy though so we mustn't knock it! Keep up the good work now!

hope4truth said...

Hi Nancy

Shame Kate could have not got busy a while ago and answer very simple questions for her Daughter x

nancy said...

Good morning Hope -

This couple really beggar belief don't they? It's a pity they didn't get incredibly busy when Madeleine went missing instead of letting everyone else in the world search! And you are right - Amber Alert will do nothing to help neglected and abused children who suffer daily at the hands of abusive parents or guardians. What they should have done is beg people to look after their children, not leave them alone, and treat them with the respect and love they deserve. I think that Amber Alert has just been a smoke screen for this pair of child neglecters but you can fool some of the people some of the time etc....

hope4truth said...

Nancy

I agree a very big smoke screen...

Any normal parent would have been devestated that their own selfish actions had been the reason an abductor had the chance to take their child but not them it was all the PJs fault...

Sickening...

xxx

Niki said...

Good Morning Hope and Nancy:)

Hope, I was trying to make a summary too, but you brits are just all too fast for me:-)))

Thats why Atardi and I where always soo greatful for you beeing our voices:-)

About Amber Alert: Remember this summer the two gipsy-boys in Greece that got missing? The Amber-alert was like a sirene in every break at all TV-channels all over the country. The boys where found dead in an empty building, stucked in a broken elevator...


Have to run. Have a nice day everyone:-)

hope4truth said...

Hi Niki

You do very well on your own...

Where is Atardi has anyone seen her??

Take care all I am off as well have a nice day xxxx

viv said...

Good Morning all

So right on cue when I say Kate and Gerry have crawled under a rock, there he blows!

Oh and that fantastic one man band firm Oakley International set up curiously enough in 2007 now got the sack, hum, so who are these fantastic private investigators that are tracking Maddie down now??? Nice one Hope well I read it for free on 3 As, that made me laugh! Well he has to come up with some crap as to why they are looking just as hard now as they did that first night! Well, when he has got all that translation done that we have already read. Gerry your credibility is not getting any better mate, might as well have stayed under your stone x

Oh well sun up soon I hope tea in the farden x

viv said...

Oh Gerry, I did notice you were asking for messages of support, don't tempt me!

x

dylan said...

Good morning all. Another sunny start to the day :-)

Hi Niki, Hope and Nancy. You really are early birds! Yet again, there is nothing in Gerry's blog that shows any concern about M. It is purely an entry about them and their "good name". Ie; we have been very busy, thanks to us Amber Alert is.... blah, blah, blah!

What a bunch of name droppers bum and bark are too? Posh hotels with a listening service that, quite frankly, I wouldn't touch with a barge pole & cosy afternoons with Mrs Branson. In reality, poeple who are secure and confident in their own lives don't feel the need to name drop!! Why, just yesterday, I spent a lovely day at Beckingham Palace ;-)

Viv, thanks for your email reply. You have a point, no-one can champion all of the missing children in the world, and I won't take offence! I'm never quite sure what to do with these chain-mail types but I do hope that they find her.

Welcome to Jane :-)

xx

viv said...

Hiya Dillie

I do not actually accept that Maddie is a "missing child", I firmly believe she is a "dead child", and has been from several hours before her "parents" reported her "missing".



x

dylan said...

Hi Viv,

Yes, I sadly have the same opinion as yourself.

BTW, it's amazing how the council intall such lovely and realistic fardens in council flats these days, isn't it? ;-)

xx

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

Thanks Niki for posting the latest blog. Hope you are still doing well giving up the cigarrettes.


THE BLOG

I would like to assure everyone that this gap is not because there is little going on in the search for Madeleine. On the contrary, Kate and I have been incredibly busy over the last couple of months since the PJ files were made public.

INCREDIBLY BUSY! HOW MANY TIMES HAS THAT BEEN SAID SINCE 03/05/07? ALL THAT PUBLIC MONEY DOWN THE DRAIN AND STILL NOTHING POSITIVE. Mmm!

We and our family have always vowed to leave no stone unturned in the search for our daughter and knowing exactly what has been done and, more importantly, what has not been done is vital in planning our future strategy.

STRATEGY Mmmm!

Getting the files translated accurately is a time consuming and expensive process but essential to our search. There is a huge amount of information contained within the files which we have not been party to until now and this needs to be assessed carefully. This is even more important as the Portuguese investigation is officially closed.

ACCURATELY OR YOUR TRANSLATED McPOOPAGANDA! DON'T YOU MEAN SHELVED OR ARCHIVED?

In some ways, although this task is monumental, it has been good for us doing being something active and positive which we believe may help find Madeleine.

PHYSICALLY LOOKING FOR THE CHILD YOU CLAIM WAS TAKEN WOULD HAVE BEEN ACTIVE AND POSITIVE. NOT LEAVING THEM UNSUPERVISED WOULD HAVE BEEN POSITIVE PARENTING.

We are also using this period to get advice to maximise our effectiveness and efficiency in our overall strategy going forward. Keeping Madeleine’s image in the public eye will continue to be important and the distribution of posters is central to that aim.

HAS ANYONE SEEN THESE POSTERS IN EUROPE? OR ELSWHERE IN THE WORLD?

Many people have also asked us what is happening with the Amber alert after the successful adoption of the written declaration by the European Parliament. It has been relatively quiet due to the summer recess but hopefully the momentum gained, added to the desire of the European Commission to for an Amber Alert system, will affect change in the near future.

NOT INTERESTED JUST ANOTHER BANDWAGON YOU JUMPED ON. Zzzzz.

Finally we would like to thank everyone for their continued, support, prayers and letters. I promise to do another update in the near future.

OH CAN'T WAIT!

We will be looking at how the website functions, as the main portal of the find Madeleine campaign, and perhaps future updates will be via another route rather than my blog.

WELL IF IT IS MAYBE THE SPELLING AND GRAMMAR WILL AT LEAST BE CHECKED. JUST HAVE A RE-READ OF YOUR LATEST INSTALMENT AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT I MEAN. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE INTELLIGENT. PUTTING SOMETHING LIKE THIS OUT IN THE PUBLIC ARENA IS AN EMBARRASSMENT.

Why don’t you let us know what you think by e-mail messages of support?

HAVING TO ASK FOR E-MAIL MESSAGES OF SUPPORT NOW ARE YOU. THOUGHT YOU HAD CONTINUED SUPPORT OR IS THAT JUST ANOTHER McCONTRADICTION AND McINCONSISTENCY?

'Finally we would like to thank everyone for their continued, support, prayers and letters.'

(excerpt taken from above McPoop to show contradiction)

WHAT ABOUT OAKLEY INTERNATIONAL?

STILL WAITING TO HEAR HOW K JUST NEW THAT M WAS ABDUCTED AND IF SHE COULD SAY SHE WOULD BUT BECAUSE OF THOSE DARNED SECRECY LAWS SHE HAD TO REMAIN SILENT. WELL THE STATUS THAT YOU CONVENIENTLY USED TO SILENCE YOURSELF WAS LIFETD ON 21/07/08. SO COME ON TELL THE WORLD HOW YOU KNEW JUST KNEW AND IF YOU COULD SAY YOU WOULD. YOUR SILENCE IS STILL DEAFENING!

nancy said...

Zodiac -


I'll say ditto to all that!

They are obviously up the creek without a paddle now that CM can't speak while they pull the strings!

dylan said...

Good morning Zodiac,

Well interpreted! They should have just left it as: "Why don't you let us know what you think?", but then again, they know what the majority thinks and are having to resort to fishing for support!

I took a look at Troll's yesterday to see the thread about Hope. Apparently I am a poor, lonely and vulnerable single mum, lol!
I also found this, this morning, from ST:

"Why are some people so keen to deny the abductor's existence, or even justify his behaviour in order to attack the parents?"

My answer would be: because, erm, the "abductor" didn't leave any evidence of having been in the appartment?? Amazing that, not a single cell or print left behind. Must have been non carbon-based aliens with no finger prints. Those damned cockroaches!!

I'm off now. I have friends to see and things to do :-)

Have a good day all.

xx

viv said...

Zodiac you are fab! What a great piece of repartee! Esp loved:

McPOOPAGANDA

I predict that one will catch on big time Hun xxxxxxxxxxx


future updates will be via another route rather than my blog.


Could this be one of his veiled threats...Super! Bring it on!!


We are also using this period to get advice to maximise our effectiveness and efficiency in our overall strategy going forward.

What an excellant piece of NHS Managementspeak gobbledegook - ever heard of the Plain English Campaign, Gez? It advocates saying nothing if you are not prepared to be honest!

nancy said...

Hi Dylan -

Yes I'm a morning person rather than a night owl! My husband is the opposite unfortunately.

Regarding these baby monitoring contraptions, they are fine if you are downstairs and the child is upstairs in the bedroom and you can dash up the stairs quickly when they cry. However, if you are in a tapas bar a few minutes walk away and the baby is choking, even with a monitering service you couldn't get there in time so it renders them virtually useless. In my opinion, even the Paynes children were at risk because of what I have just said. I would avoid using this service unless you intend staying in the hotel all the time and can get to your child immediately if something is heard to worry you.

All continental countries welcome children in their restaurants, hotels etc, so there is simply no need to leave them alone in a bedroom and dash backwards and forwards to check on them. An afternoon siesta by everyone, including the children,allows the whole family to socialise and eat together in the evening. A holiday should be a break from the normal routine after all.

Zodiac said...

Welcome Jane.


Hotels with baby monitors.


What parent would leave their child/ren in a hotel room with a monitor and then go and eat at the hotel Restaurant? Parents who cannot be bothered being parents, imo. Any hotel room or ship cabin I have stayed in has a double lock and safety chain. When we retire for the night all locks etc are used and I place a suitcase in front of the door just incase my child gets confused going to the toilet and tries to go out the wrong door. The thought of anyone going away and leaving their children in a room on their own (a room they can get out of FP GMTV kids spring to mind) is utterly disgusting. The type of people who practise this style of parenting are the very ones who would blame others for their poor parenting skills, imo.

The McCanns left their children in an apt outside the holiday complex they ate in. Even if the apt was 100mts within the complex it is still 100mts too far away! They had a patio they could have eaten there. I remember John McC trying to imply that was what it was like he said something like, they had invited a few friends round for Tapas. What a load of cr@p. Leaving children in the circumstances these chilren were left is wrong not a mistake.

Zodiac said...

BBL

Viv,

Forgot to say. It is good see your lovely garden from a different angle. I see you have solar lights. It must be nice to sit there in the evening also.

viv said...

Just a few more thoughts on baby monitors. The Paynes said they did not check their children at all because they had the monitor! I have looked at the range for these things because until this case I have never heard of parents actually using them to leave home and the Paynes would have only just about been in range. I find it quite staggering that they not only relied on this but never even walked back to check. This makes them only marginally better than the rest who never checked at all. The evidence indicates that this was different on the night of 3 May in that they did start doing some checks, no prizes for guessing why, they knew the police would have to drop by later! Gerry McCann had the gall to argue with Sandra about how often these checks were, she suggested every 15 minutes, he corrected her and said every 30 minutes. Now I know my maths are not brill but I certainly do extend to very simple arithmetic. If he checked at 9 and Kate checked at 10, sorry Gerry but that is every hour! I think he did not want to tell us what they were doing the rest of the time! The evidence suggests that Kate went back to the apartment well before 10, why is it he does not want to tell us about that! Oh I know because she would have bumped right into the "abductor". I think she bumped into herself and opened the shutters and window, as we know from the INSIDE. That in my book makes it an INSIDE JOB..how stupid were that to then tell all their friends and relatives about jemmied windows and shutters. I remember a case years ago, a bloke who had set fire to his own warehouse because he bought a load of winter coats for kids that he could not sell because it was summer. Straight away the firemen realised there was no break in, it was clear the fire had been set from the inside and that person just had to have a key, he had even take the cash box with the money in as he could not bear to burn that! To me this is just the same, the apartment had a complex and very secure locking system that was not damaged at all, so what did they say, we left the door open. Funny they did not do that the rest of the week, as Mrs Fenn said, she noted Madeleine stopped crying after hearing the McCanns come in through THEIR FRONT DOOR. You are not kidding no one Gerry, so shut up you stupid little man! Unless you can explain why Maddie was repeatedly crying "daddy, daddy". That would be worth listening to! As a poster above mentioned you are not governed by secrecy now, not that ever stopped you from blabbing your mouth off to say whatever suited your or via Ludicrous and your "friends", so do not let it stop you now, but future strategy going forward, there is nothing left of little Maddie to find, you are repugnant. Take your strategy for cleaning up your reputation and staying out of prison and stick it where the sun does not shine.

Plain enough?

Viv x

viv said...

Hiya Zodiac

Actually the solar lights are quite old and do not work very well, I tend to use the candle next to the bench or there is also a set of lights on the walls near the house and near the pond you guessed it a big Halligen:-)))

If I am sitting out there it depends what I am trying to spot, hedgehogs and owls do not like the Halligen! Troll do not dare say a word about my spelling you dumbo!


xxxxx

viv said...

Mum21 said...

Good Morning ST,

Yes, I have read Viv's comment to ROB. What she tends to forget (or ignore) is a persons private life is private. All she should be concerned with is their track record within their employment. I honestly do not care what a police officer does in his private life...as long as he does his job properly. The same goes for anyone in Government...their personal life is their own. Or at least it should be.
Viv's last words in that comment proved to me she was and is jealous of anyone who is successful...especially her ex boss.


----------

I think it would be helpful if you listened to your own words and remembered that my private life is actually private and stop telling me how to live it!

I understand that you of all people would not be able to perceive that Mike Todd needed psychological assessment to see whether he was fit to manage, given he committed suicide I am struggling to think how you consider this to be "successful". You have a very negative view of success. I also struggle to understand how you could consider he was an appropriate manager when he was accosting every female officer he could!

Oh and although my private life is actually private, I can tell you that as a result of the manner in which my ex boss behaved she is anything but successful, maybe you could check with the Home Office! That applies to her underling, the Assistant Chief Officer too!

Did you think she got a big pat on the back for losing a massive tribunal case and all the ancillary costs involved in that? Well that just shows how utterly stupid you are!

So chew on that, knowitall!

xxxxxxxx

viv said...

Mum21:

The BBC has learned he suffered from bouts of depression and had previously threatened suicide.

In the hours before he died, he sent a series of "worrying" text messages to various people, which caused concern for their safety and his own.

BBC home affairs correspondent Daniel Sandford said the investigation may focus on Mr Todd's distressed state of mind and what support he had been given by Greater Manchester Police.

---

So, just to spell it out a little clearer because I can see you are so lacking in empathy and understanding, psychological assessment and treatment arranged by an employer for a very senior employee who is suffering from depression is "support" and may well have saved his life. You epitomise the blinding ignorance that is the so called " Pro McCann supporters" like yourself, people who think Kate and Gerry McCann are really good parents!

viv said...

Did you know Mum that Police Officers, Probation Officers, Doctors, Solicitors, all sorts of professional people in fact have to behave properly in their personal life otherwise they can lose their job. Clearly not. You must be related to Gerry McCann because just like him you seem to think you can compartmentalise, work is work and private life is private life but you are so wrong!

Take a look at this bit in particular and then repeat again your simplistic views:

In 2001, when I took the Metropolitan Police to an employment tribunal, he feared I'd discuss our relationship in court and became suicidal. I knew how much he feared exposure and losing his job. To protect him, I didn't name him and lost my case.

Now tell me again, he was doing such a great job! Tell me, when Gordon Brown had all those phone chats with Gerry which box would you put that in, was that his private or professional life, do you think politicians should set an example and always behave with propriety? There are actually rules for senior managers and politicians etc that say that they should and that could include seeking help and treatment. But employers also have a responsibility to support and look after employees who become unwell. The trouble is Mr Todd was right at the top so who was to support him, this is where the psychological vetting I was talking about comes in. People in all walks of life have serious problems, being a Chief Constable like Mike Todd or doctors like Kate and Gerry McCann does not change that. For all of your 65 or whatever years you really have not learned much have you, you just hero worship professional people and wealth as though it really means something, you do not know what that something is at all, do you!

It is not having a big garden with wildfowl, or pretending you know a billionaire, it is about understanding human nature and showing you care. Materialism makes people like you and you are not worth knowing! I hope you read this story and think very carefully about what sort of a person you are and what your values are!

Oh and do PLEASE THINK VERY CAREFULLY ABOUT:
HIS MOTHER ABANDONED HIM WHEN HE WAS NINE

AND THE EFFECT THIS HAD ON MIKE TODD FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE AND THEN START THINKING ABOUT THE CONDUCT OF KATE AND GERRY MCCANN AND THE IMPACT OF THAT CONDUCT NOT JUST ON MADELEINE BUT ON THE TWO WHO ARE STILL ALIVE BUT WILL HAVE A LIFE TIME'S AFFLICTION, JUST LIKE MIKE TODD!

THINK MUM21, JUST FOR ONE TRY STOPPING AND THINKING BEFORE YOU WRITE YOUR SOURFACED RUBBISH!

xx


The tough cop who broke down and wept in my arms ... and finished his life on a lonely mountainside

By Tracy Clarke
Last updated at 11:57 PM on 20th September 2008

* Comments (20)
* Add to My Stories


I found out about Michael Todd's death when a friend contacted me and told me to switch on the news. I watched as they described how his body had been discovered at Bwlch Glas in Snowdonia with a half-empty bottle of gin by his side and thought: 'Oh, you poor, silly sod.' Then I cried.

But I wasn't surprised. Michael was a wonderful man and a brilliant Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, but he had demons.

His mother abandoned him when he was nine, he secretly suffered from crippling depression and he needed help.
Chief Constable Michael Todd

Laughing policeman: Michael Todd seemed to be a happy, confident officer

In fact, he cried so often when he was with me that I once met him at my door already holding out a box of Kleenex. That actually made him laugh.

In 2001, when I took the Metropolitan Police to an employment tribunal, he feared I'd discuss our relationship in court and became suicidal. I knew how much he feared exposure and losing his job. To protect him, I didn't name him and lost my case.

Now I can set the record straight.

I first met Michael in August 1998, when he chaired a disciplinary board at Tintagel House, the headquarters of the Met's Complaints Investigation Bureau, opposite MI5 on the Thames. CIB investigates corrupt officers and I was an administration officer.

Michael had just joined the Met from Nottinghamshire Police and was Deputy Assistant Commissioner in charge of Area 2 in North London.

I was 27 at the time and a civilian employee ushering the disciplinary board - making sure they had everything they needed.

Afterwards, Michael chatted to me. 'I'd buy you lunch,' he said, 'but we might start a rumour.'

I'm not a 'girly' girl so I was shocked and stood there with my mouth open like a goldfish.

Back upstairs in the office, they asked: 'What's the new DAC like?' Still stunned, I said: 'I think he just came on to me.'

The office information was that he was single. He was living on his own at a police house in Colindale, North London, and he didn't then have a reputation as a ladies' man; the police force is gossipy - I'd have been warned. No woman before me has been named.

Michael wasn't like other senior officers I'd met. He wasn't pompous - in fact, he found the top brass stuffy. His best chums were his driver and his secretary. He never lost touch with his working-class, Essex roots. He was 41, and a whirlwind of energy.

Over the next few months, he often left messages for me to ring. When I called, he'd just chat. Or he'd turn up in the office and stick his feet up on a desk for a chat.

I was single and our flirting became an office joke. I was attracted to him, though I didn't think he was that handsome. I thought he looked like comedian Graham Norton.
TRACY CLARKE - former lover of Manchester Chief Constable Mike Todd

Confidante: Tracy Clarke knew the truth behind Todd's upbeat facade

Once, I pinned Norton's photo on a senior officers' rota instead of Michael's. He thought that was funny. Michael loved the fact that I wasn't fazed by rank.

Michael was manly. He loved football, beer festivals and the physical aspects of the job.

Other women certainly did find him good-looking. They threw themselves at him and his photo was constantly being stolen from the noticeboard by his fans.

One day in September, I was due to usher for Michael and, as I was leaving my office, I called out: 'If I don't come back, it's because he's asked me to marry him and I've run away with him.'

I turned round and he was in the doorway. I was mortified, but he just laughed.

He started asking me out for coffee and then, in February 1999, he took me to dinner. We went to a tapas bar near my flat in Richmond.

Michael ordered a £100 bottle of red wine, and paid in cash. He always did that, and it annoys me now that the police are going through his BlackBerry looking for expenses fiddles. He was straight as a die when it came to work.

After dinner we walked by the river. He told me for the first time that he was married but said he led a 'separate life' from his wife Carolyn. 'I thought you knew,' he said.

I think she lived then in Nottinghamshire with their children, a little girl and twin boys. He adored his kids, so it was complicated.

The fact that he was married changed things for me. I wouldn't sleep with him and told him so. This wasn't a moral decision, but a logical one: I liked him too much.

Michael saw there was a genuine friendship on offer, and he started taking me out to dinner a couple of times a week.

Sometimes we'd eat at his house - a blokey place, very sparse - or at my flat. He always turned up with a packet of mints for my alsatian, Lester.

We did kiss and cuddle, and it became harder each time to say goodnight. But he never pushed me to take the relationship further.

It was on about date three that he opened up about his difficult childhood. We were at my flat, talking about our backgrounds. I told him how close I was to my father.

'That sounds very different to my family,' said Michael.

Crying quietly, he told me his mum had walked out when he was nine. She took off with the next-door neighbour and his daughter, leaving Michael and his brother with their father.

He spoke in a matter-of-fact way. He was not given to being a victim, yet the tears running silently down his face betrayed a deeper emotion.

There was no bitterness or anger - only sadness.

He hardly saw his mother afterwards. She died when he was 18 and his father forbade him to go to her funeral.

His father rarely showed Michael affection, and Michael had not seen him for years. He blamed his father for his mother leaving.

Soon after I started seeing Michael, his father became ill with a brain tumour.

I said he might regret it if he didn't see him, and Michael eventually decided to make peace with him. But his father died just before they were due to meet.

He'd also had a twin brother who died at birth. He mentioned this only once, but it must have had an effect.

Whenever he talked about all this, he would weep. Sometimes he would be in tears when we were in public places such as restaurants.

He wouldn't try to hide it, he seemed oblivious to the fact that there were other people there.
Tracy Clarke, who was once linked to Chief Constable Michael Todd. Photographed in Barrie, Ontario, Canada. 17th September 2008.

Still suffering: Tracy Clarke is determined to put the record straight

Looking back, I don't even think Michael looked to women for sex. He just needed someone to talk to. Or maybe when you're abandoned by the most important woman in your life, you set out to conquer the rest.

I don't think he had really opened up about all this before. Maybe he confided in me because he knew I wouldn't judge him and he was always grateful that I listened to him.

He admitted he sometimes had suicidal thoughts, albeit fleeting ones. I reminded him he had children to think about, and he said that wasn't something he even thought about when he was in the grip of 'an episode'.

That shows how irrational depression was because he loved his children so much. In the cold light of day, he would never have hurt them.

I urged him many times to seek counselling, but he always refused.

He said: 'If it gets out, I could lose my job.' He lived for the job - it was like medication for him - and his family.

He was a workaholic. I'd tell him: 'No one on their deathbed ever wished they'd spent more time in the office, but you could be the first.'

He was driven, like he was always trying to prove something. He suffered from migraines and backache. Then, when the depression kicked in on top, it was debilitating.

He refused to use the word ' depression'. He would just say: ' Everything's got on top of me.'

But a day or two later, the black mood would pass, and he would act like happy, gung-ho 'Toddy' again.

I had completed a dog psychology course, so I'd say: 'I know it's not the same, Michael, but ...' then draw comparisons between him and dogs. That made him laugh.

He was a mass of contradictions despite being a top policeman.

He was physically tough - in February 2005, for this newspaper, he allowed himself to be shot with a Taser gun to see how much it would hurt - yet he had a treasured collection of teddy bears.

He wasn't afraid to tackle thugs in the street, yet he would cry openly while I held him.

I found it a heady mixture - power and vulnerability are a killer combination. But I never encouraged him to leave his wife. I didn't want him to throw that in my face later.

In May 1999 I was due to see him one night. I'd been to the hairdresser and had highlights put in, the works.
CAROLYN TODD
Sheryl Sleigh

Left behind: The women in Todd's tangled life included, clockwise from above left, his widow Carolyn, Sheryl Sleigh and Angie Robinson
Angie Robinson

Then he cancelled. He was flustered but wouldn't explain. Later he rang from a call box and asked me to come over. He told me I was secretly under investigation for corruption by CIB.

Paul, a childhood friend of mine, was facing trial for a serious assault. His first trial collapsed because the witnesses didn't show up.

A registered police informant supposedly alleged Paul was my boyfriend and I had given him the witnesses' addresses from the Police National Computer (PNC) so he could intimidate them.

It was ridiculous. I'd known this guy since he was 13 - his sister went out with my brother - but I hadn't seen him for nearly a year and I didn't even have access to the PNC.

I accept the allegation had to be investigated, but I believe the real motivation was that the police had discovered my relationship with Michael.

They feared a Profumo-type scandal: that I had a high-ranking police-officer boyfriend and was romancing a criminal as well. They set out to protect Michael and, in his words, 'to stitch me up'.

The police launched a covert investigation of me, Operation Thornbury. Michael told me an intelligence briefing was held at which the surveillance team stuck two photos up on a board.

One marked Target One was of me, and Target Two was of 'an unknown male'.

The detective in charge exploded: 'That's not an unknown male, you f****** idiots. That's DAC Mike Todd!'

Michael was pulled in to see the then Deputy Commissioner, John Stevens. The other assistant commissioners were there too. Stevens announced to them all: 'Michael has been rather stupid.'

He had been questioned about our relationship and told I had a criminal boyfriend and was under investigation for perverting the course of justice. Stevens ordered him not to see me any more. Michael said: 'I stood there feeling like a naughty schoolboy.' He was humiliated.

He was risking his career to tell me this. He was beside himself over the implications for me, but most endearingly, he was jealous of Paul.

'I feel rather weird about it,' he said. 'The thing is, I really rather like you.' I was grateful to him.

That night it was especially difficult to leave Michael's place.

Soon after the 'Michael's been rather stupid' meeting, a senior officer told him: 'Don't worry, that whole business is sorted.' Michael took that to mean he could carry on seeing me.

CIB seemed to have realised early on that I wasn't guilty, but the investigation ground on.

I wasn't interviewed until July. Two male officers questioned me at work; my colleagues would have realised I was under suspicion.

They seemed satisfied with my answers and said the allegation sounded malicious. But I felt violated. Had my colleagues broken into my house? How much of my life did they intrude on?

I didn't have anything to hide, but the thought of being filmed getting out of the bath, for example, was horrible.
Chief Constable Michael Todd shot with taser gun

Action man: Todd is shot with a Taser for a Mail on Sunday article in 2005

I worked for CIB, I knew what they were capable of ... I knew that the 'gasman' going into your home could be setting up cameras and microphones.

In late August, my doctor signed me off sick with stress-induced hypertension. I decided to finish things with Michael.

The whole thing was becoming too difficult. I hadn't done the Dolly Day-Dreamer bit, imagining picking out new curtains with him. But I did like him.

In an all-or-nothing move, I went over to Colindale. 'I think we've come to a crossroads,' I said.

We sat on the sofa and had a bottle of wine. He was pensive, but not distressed.

As I walked out of the door, he pulled me back. 'Would it be different if I left my wife?' he asked.

'Of course it would,' I told him. He hugged me. It was all grown-up and civilised, but inside I was devastated.

That summer, everything fell apart fast. I was cut up about Michael, I missed him and I was angry about what the job had done to me - and to us.

It was as if they'd put another obstacle between us - and it was a big one. I started having counselling.

By the end of October, I was officially exonerated of the corruption accusations and went back to work. I felt vulnerable, I felt my colleagues still didn't trust me and that I was a laughing stock.

Among the top brass, I was regarded as Michael Todd's ex, his bit of fluff.

One senior officer patted me on the bottom and leered: 'You can always come and work for me.'

Another told me: 'It isn't the first time that a male officer who should know better has led a young lady astray.' He meant to cheer me up, but I felt so humiliated. Everyone knew.

I was desperate to get away from CIB and applied for three posts. I was even headhunted for Operation Trident, which was set up to tackle gun crime.

But every application was refused for what I felt were spurious, bureaucratic reasons. It was as if CIB wanted to keep an eye on me.

I started an internal grievance procedure against the Met. I wanted answers. Who had made the allegation against me? Had my home been bugged? Why couldn't I get out of CIB?

Requests for meetings with the top brass, Deputy Commissioner John Stevens and CIB head Andy Hayman, were turned down.

I did eventually get a letter expressing 'regret' for the distress I was caused and the way the investigation was handled.

CIB finally let me go in February 2000, to become an intelligence researcher on the murder squad in Barnes, South-West London.

I was supposed to be grateful, but there were no promotion prospects and I felt I was there on sufferance, so I started an employment tribunal action, alleging sexual discrimination because of my relationship with a senior male officer.

I knew I couldn't win, but my father said: 'Will fighting it make you feel better, and them think twice about doing the same to someone else?' The answer was 'Yes'.

I didn't initially name Michael in the legal papers because I wanted to protect him. But I named as witnesses about eight senior officers I understood had been at the 'Michael has been rather stupid' meeting.

My case spawned thousands of pages of documentation and wasted hundreds of police hours that maybe should have been spent fighting crime.

The Met could have apologised to me instead, which was all I wanted, but supposedly they were worried I'd then go for damages. I didn't ask for any.

No one mentioned Michael. By now he had become distant, probably running scared.

Then, in May 2000, I heard he was now seeing a police inspector. It was a slap in the face. I'd specifically set out the tribunal papers to protect him, yet he had moved on, apparently without much thought for me, and was already with another woman. I was fuming.

The tribunal demanded, pre-court, that I name the senior officer in my written submissions. Eventually I agreed, under the impression that the top brass would cover up for him, so that it would never get to court.

I knew that, to protect the reputation of the Met, the 'Michael's been rather stupid' conversation would be denied by everyone if Michael didn't testify. I would be portrayed as a paranoid woman who imagined she was being victimised.

So I wanted Michael to be wheeled in. I knew he wouldn't lie.

Eventually, I told Michael that if I was forced to explain in court why I'd called the senior officers to give evidence, I'd have to admit: 'Michael Todd told me they knew about us, when he admitted to me that I was under investigation.'

That would probably have ended his career. His mood veered between being petrified and being resigned. He agreed to help, but was unhappy about producing a witness statement.

Two or three weeks before the tribunal, he rang late at night when I was in bed. I could tell immediately from his flat tone that he was depressed. He said: 'I need to know if you're going to name me.'

I said I wouldn't have to if Ian Blair, the new Deputy Commissioner, gave me an apology - CIB falls under the Deputy Commissioner's command, as does Legal Services. Michael said Blair would not, that he had been to Blair and he had refused.

He became really distressed and was sobbing. He said: 'Blair's prepared to hang me out to dry.'

He believed Blair wouldn't settle because he wanted him out of the way, or with a black mark against him, so when John Stevens retired Michael wouldn't be competition for the top job.

I was shocked, I'd thought the old boys' network would protect him. I felt trapped. There was a sick feeling in my stomach because I knew the Met was going to get away with what they had done to me.

'Where are you?' I asked. He was in Clumber Park in Nottinghamshire. My heart started thumping. I thought: 'This is not going to end well.'

I said: 'What are you doing, sitting in your car in a forest in the middle of the night?'

He said: 'I have two bottles of paracetamol with me.' He didn't say he was going to take them, but the threat was implicit. 'I've got about 600 tablets,' he added.

'That's a hell of headache,' I said. I spoke flippantly just to keep him on the line and alive.

He sobbed: 'If I don't have my job, I don't have anything.'

I knew at that point I couldn't do it: I told him I wouldn't name him.

He started to cry again. They were great, racking sobs. 'I'm so grateful,' he said. 'So grateful.'

I knew then he wasn't in immediate danger. And I said, as I always did: 'If you want to talk, you know where I am.'

The tribunal hearing was very hard because I had one hand tied behind my back.

The Met's barrister really laid into me, and the tribunal concluded that the case was without merit. The telling thing is that the police didn't pursue me for costs.

Michael was grateful afterwards. He knew I'd done it for him. We never fell out. We continued to swap texts and he still sent me a birthday card.

The last time I saw him was at a Pizza Express restaurant in September 2001. I'd found out he was being chased by a woman with an outrageous cocaine habit. For such a clever man he could be very dense about women.

I warned him about her and he started crying. He said: 'I can't believe you're helping me out of the s*** again. When am I going to learn?'

For the first time, his tears made me angry - after all I'd been through for his sake.

Then, in 2002, I received a text: 'You can tell people you now know the Chief Constable of Manchester!'

The following year I met the wonderful man I was to marry in 2006. I cut back on contact with Michael.

He got in touch with me when my father died in December 2005 to say how sorry he was. 'But at least you had a better relationship with your father than I did with mine,' he said.

I took that to mean that he still harboured grief and regret about his father's death. That was one more thing he couldn't reconcile and had to learn to live with.

Last August my husband and I moved to Canada. Michael provided a reference for my immigration procedure. I'm now working for the Canadian police.

A week before he died, I emailed Michael about a police friend who wanted advice on moving into anti-terrorist work. He didn't reply. That wasn't like him.

Then I saw the news of his death. I contacted the police and an officer from North Wales Police asked me to write a statement for their inquiry.

As I did so, and read the Press stories wrongly portraying Michael as a sleazy womaniser, I became increasingly angry.

It also suddenly hit me: Greater Manchester Police would bear the brunt of the criticism. And it seemed so unfair that the subordinates would get the blame again - while the command team at the Met knew about Michael's behaviour.

But all they wanted was to ship him off to Manchester with glowing references and get him off their books.

I decided the best way to stop another cover-up was to tell as many people as possible. So I also contacted the Metropolitan Police Authority - which has told me in writing that it is considering an inquiry - the Home Office, the West Midlands Police inquiry into Michael, London Mayor Boris Johnson and Conservative leader David Cameron. Michael was very much a Tory.

It made me sick to see Stevens and Blair fawning over Michael's wife, Carolyn, at the funeral. They had all known about Michael and me.

They were the ones who could have said: 'Toddy, you're cavorting with a girl 14 years your junior who's friends with a criminal - sort yourself out. Leave your wife or stay, but get it sorted.'

For years I was a laughing stock. It would be nice if people might now say: 'She was telling the truth.'

But even if I am vindicated, a good man is still dead. I just hope that he is finally at peace.

• Tracy Clarke was talking to Eileen Fairweather (eileen.fairweather@ mailonsunday.co.uk)

Cláudia said...

Have a great afternoon, all.
Work is waiting. Again. :-)

dylan said...

Hi Viv,

Thanks for that article. He was obviously very disturbed and, as a consequence of being abandoned by his mother, felt the need to seek out female affections throughout his life, probably to fill the void. My parents' next-door but two neighbour, ran off with a man and left her three children behind. I never could and never will understand how she could have done that.

Hopefull, A & S will not be abandoned so systematically following the loss of their sister, however, nothing will ever make up for that loss in thier minds, even if they have only vague memories. Rachel Nickell's (I can't recall how her surname was spelled) son was only a toddler when she was murdered but I read somewhere that all these years later, he is still very disturbed and having problems in his life as a result.

It is very true that social standing does not guarantee moral behaviour. I know of a couple who have lost their daughter through the cruel treatment of the stepmother towards her, but they have not even bothered to make the slightest attempt at an apology to her to get her back in contact with them. Instead, they have used the whole sorry situation to have a go at her mum who was trying help smooth things over! These two people are what I would call "new money". They are very materialistic and sneer at people in primary or secondry jobs just because they are well-off and can look down on those who do not own posh cars and a spanking new 4 bed house on a housing estate.
I am sure they consider themselves "respectable" and to all intents and purposes appear respectable, but a posh car can cover up many flaws IMO and they are both a sorry excuse for parents!!

School run is calling. BBL.
Have a good afternoon all.
xx

viv said...

Hi Dillie,


Very well put, thanks! I know that my middle son had great difficulty because of being left in hospital each night, aged three, even though I was right back there the following morning and spent all day every day with him.

Sean and Amelie lost Madeleine but were then consistently dumped in the creche each day and far worse still, Gerry made several trips abroad and on one occasion Kate with them too. I am afraid this was all too much for these little souls to try and deal with IMO. They would have felt extremely abandoned by their immediate family and utterly confused. It is another great tragedy IMO which is why this site also seeks justice for them, the right to proper love and understanding for all they have suffered. I have so many times been on the receiving end of "offenders" who are very frequently people who have grown up with exactly this type of terrible trauma and sense of abandonment and loss in their childhoods. It does stay for life and needs instensive therapy if people are to have any hope of recovery. I am very impressed with the work of pyschologists who I often called on to help me with offenders who were seriously abusing drugs just to try and forget, to block out their horrible childhoods. I think this is why I get so angry when I read the sort of comments made by ignorant people like Bum, 21! When did she ever once stop to consider what those twins have suffered, never mind their rotten educated parents who have the wit to help themselves!

Viv x

Cláudia said...

Hello, all.
Hope you're all well.

docmac said...

vile's mole said...

Viv you are a liar, but guess we all knew this anyway!
This picture is of your friend's garden. Why is it that you cannot tell the truth, even on the most basic of things like this?
Such a stinking liar!


13 October 2008 15:23

viles mole said...

Gina (Re post 16:31)
Because she told us all when her blog was closed! She may have a short memory, but I haven't!



LOL! Come on, show us the post. LIAR!

And then you also have the cheek to tell me I can't spell for "toffees" [sic], Rosie. Oh dear!

13 October 2008 16:54

docmac said...

BTW, Mark

Fifteen Cornwall is next door to the Watergate hotel, on the first floor of the Extreme adventure centre. Of course it's listed on the 'menu'. One of the brothers runs that facility and is on the board of Fifteen's charity, isn't he?

However, what you are really trying to do is to excuse irresponsible and neglectful parents who leave their children to go out to a restaurant or bar 100 metres away for a bit of 'into each other' time.

Cláudia said...

Hi, Doc.
Child neglecters are all the same and love to cover each other's asses.

Cláudia said...

That thing about the garden is hilarious!!! ROTFLMAO!

docmac said...

Yeah it is

Sorry, busy with other things too and did not realise you had posted.

Did you notice the 'vile's' and then in the next post 'viles'. Mind you, he said he doesn't give a toss about apostrophes as his 'publisher' corrects the 'work'.

Cláudia said...

Hi, Doc.
Been away all day and I'm also a bit busy with other things on the computer. ;-)

I haven't checked. Just read your posts. :-)

docmac said...

OK. It was pasted in my first post above ;-) Why do you think he tries to impersonate a mole? :-)))

Don't let me disturb you ;-) I'm going back to work too.

Cláudia said...

Because he's stupid?

docmac said...

Yep. And because he thinks everyone else is too.

Cláudia said...

Doc, that's quite common among stupid people.

docmac said...

Yes I know ;-))

From the official file, 8th May 2007.

"Note for the record that all nannies who have been in contact with Madeleine claim that Madeleine was presented to them under the diminutive "Maddie". This brings nothing special to the file except that it contradicts statements by Kate."

Very interesting! And why did they suddenly, on the 2nd of May, start entering her name in the creche register as "Madeline" (their spelling, not mine)?

One poster on 3A opines, rather intriguingly, that the crying and calls of "daddy, daddy" as heard by Mrs Fenn on the night of the 1st might actually have been "Maddie, Maddie". What was really going on in 5A that night? Something is very wrong about the McCanns lying about her name.

Cláudia said...

I had read that about the nannies being introduced to Madeleine as maddie. But Madeline? I really don't understand that. Why would they lie about such a thing? They said they never called her Maddie and that is a lie. Gerry called her that (it's online) and other family members and friends called her Maddie (that's in several articles). Who lies about such a thing? Who the hell are these weirdos?

docmac said...

Claudia, I don't get it at all.

If they insist, as they did, that their child had been abducted, why on earth would they provide a name other than the one that the child was used to? It does not make sense. Or does it?

Cláudia said...

Well, maybe it does!

docmac said...

Poor Maddie. Trademarked as Madeleine. Shame on them.

Cláudia said...

Doc, or was it the other way around? Wasn't the logo 'Look for Maddie'?

docmac said...

Claudia, the official posters used the name Madeleine. Google 'Madeleine McCann poster' and they'll all come back to you.

docmac said...

Images, of course!

Cláudia said...

Yes, but google the logo. It's 'Look for Maddie'. And then, why all the fuss about 'we never called her Maddie' when they did?

docmac said...

Oh god!

Tulip is now Southerncross! So it's Tulip that has been e-mailing me telling me about her family and where she grew up in SA etc. LOLOL!!

I thought I was Southerncross anyway :-))))

This must be the same anon who tells us Viv lives on the 11th floor in a council block and sometimes visits her friend's garden. Oh goodness, ROTFLMAO!

docmac said...

Was that the official logo?

Cláudia said...

I'm not sure?
This logo was all over Portugal. Isn't it this one?

Logo

Cláudia said...

What??? Tulip is now SC? PMSL! But SC was your alter ego!!! And they know where Viv lives? ROTFLMAO!!!

docmac said...

Yes, that's the one. But didn't that come reasonably late on? I don't really know, as I have NEVER seen a poster related to this case. Guess SA is too far off the beaten track for the 'abductor'. I never saw any in Chester, Manchester, Liverpool, Senegal or The Gambia either. I guess that was to be expected, except for Liverpool.

docmac said...

I first received an e-mail from SC on July 20. At that stage I would very much doubt it was Tulip. She didn't like me one bit ;-)

Cláudia said...

Doc, they're all delusional on ST's.
As for the logo, I used to see it a lot on TV. I have never seen a poster in the streets where I live or where I holidayed in 2007.

docmac said...

That's interesting, Claudia. So where were all these posters then?

Got something amusing for you, just got to find it again :-)

Cláudia said...

Doc, well, I live far away from the Algarve so they probably used all the posters in other european countries because here there was not ONE. Neither where I holidayed and there were lots of turists from many nationalities there. Oh well...

Hurry up. I wanna sleep. :-)

docmac said...

Oh, here we are.

I don't know if you remember back in the DX days some posters were willing to give general hints about where they lived and so on. Someone then asked RP and he replied "somewhere in the south east". Wasn't prepared to give any more details as he expected all of us to come a-knocking. FFS!

Anyway, I was reading an old article on the case that appeared in the Washington Post and this one sprang out at me:

To Irish girl: I live somewhere in the Ring of Fire. It's a place where earthquakes are quite common (for Stan's info), and tsunami warnings are occasionally issued.
And that's as specific as I'm going to get right here.


Posted by: anon mom | May 15, 2007 4:55 PM

Is that as paranoid as Rosie or what? Anon mom, earthquakes are quite common, tsunami warnings are occasionally issued? OK, we gotcha!! ROTFLMAO!!!

Cláudia said...

Doc, LOL!
Oh my...

viv said...

Hello Doc and Claudia

Very amusing:-))

Speaking of them getting a little confused about who is who, did you notice Rosie thinks we call Ratonthebneam ROB because SHE who they have mercilessly stalked has now morphed into Robert Murat, WTF!!!

And there was me thinking that obsession had died down a bit, how wrong you can be, come back Ana, Alsabella and Amaral right now, Rosie wants to have a dream and a vision about all those As in your name which clearly have deep psychic meaning, to her anyway.

Do you remember on DE she was convinced Alsabella was PJ and you too Claudia Hun! OMG I bet she (or is it he??) just cannot sleep at night, it must be a living nightmare.

Did you also notice Rosie answered my post to Mum21 and seemed to take it very personally, steady on Rosie old gal you will be convincing me you are the same lovely person:-)) What a thought eh, Rosie, Bum and ST all rolled into one Gerrylover! Oh well I did do a post about how he loves himself!

The garden, WTF next, did they notice there are THREE different pics, obviously not! Tut, tut guys, not keeping up with the homework.

I was very sorry to read I am stopping Bum from enjoying her ducks that she has worked hard all her life to sit and watch, sad that!

docmac said...

It's like Christabel trying to trace me in CT, Claudia. Well over 4 million people and she doesn't even know how deep my tan is :-)))))

docmac said...

Oh, hello Viv

You kind of sneaked up on me from behind the rhododendrons there ;-)

Cláudia said...

Hi, Viv. I seem to have missed all the emotion because I haven't checked today. Tomorrow I'll probably have more time and I'll certainly have a few good laughs, judging by your post! :-)
Yes, I remember DE times being the PJ cleaning lady, the PJ mistress and than a PJ. It was a fast promotion! LOL

Cláudia said...

Hey, Doc, you could send her your address and then you two could have tea together and discuss the beautiful SA landscapes.

viv said...

ah but me and Claudia know how deep your tan is Doc and how can you be certain that we are not Chritobel?

Hum, now I bet you are worried, tee hee

See you in Beja, I am pissed off with this grey council flat and pretendy farden:-)))

docmac said...

BTW, Viv. If you look carefully on ST's latest thread I think you will find that Bum seems to have given two clues as to her previous career. One having to do with 'knowing all the rules' about how professionals and probation officers should behave. the other seemingly involving meeting hundreds of parents of drug addicts. What is this career then?

viv said...

I have not got a clue Doc, I am only a pretendy probation officer!

Cost me a bloody fortune in plastic plants and fish to stage them pics, ungrateful sods!

Cláudia said...

Doc, a professional drug addict? LOL

docmac said...

Not really worried, Viv.

As I said previously, I am just concerned about Claudia putting pictures of my mop on the net ;-)

viv said...

Seriously Doc, there are different rules for different professions only a knowitall like Bum would pretend she knows them all, and as for met the parents of hundreds of drug addicts, I bet she had quite a few black eyes!

viv said...

Well Doc I am not having Claudia put certain pics concerning you her and that mop on this blog, it would shock Bum so much, poor old duck!

docmac said...

How much do plastic fish cost in England now Viv?

Cláudia said...

My dear friend, time to go to bed.
Durmam bem e beijinhos.
xxxx

Cláudia said...

*friends! :-)

docmac said...

Me too. Boa noite both x.

viv said...

Well Doc I went to the Pound Shop where people on Income Support go who need pretendy things but I had to buy so many plastic fish and plants to make it look real half my Income Support went and now they are after me for the rent on my grey council flat. What a life eh? Still at least I put a bit by to do a runner to Egypt, they won't find me there! Maybe I can lose Luke whilst I am there, and then get loads and loads of fame and publicity and start a fund and everything, that would be so cool and solve all my money probs, and I could tell them to stuff their Income Support. Someone gave me the idea for this brill scam but I forget who it was, I think the woman's name began with a K, maybe it was Karen, I am not sure now!

docmac said...

One would hope this is not a common occurrence amongst medical practitioners in the UK. Interesting that it must be someone Gerry knew quite well though. Tragic for the kids.

LOL Viv! Goodnight.

viv said...

Good God Doc, not only must he know Gerry look what he now does for a living!!! he looks like Gerry's older brother lol, another hard drinking Scotsman, I bet they get on like well I won't say! But I will say if he was on the panel no wonder the twins stay right where they are!


Dr Elias-Jones worked as a general paediatrician at the University Hospital of Leicester for 15 years.

He was forced to quit in 2006 after a second conviction for drink-driving.

The family source said that he had parked his car so badly one night that police decided to wait for the driver to return. When Dr Elias-Jones turned up he was breathalysed and found to be twice the legal limit.

Dr Elias-Jones now works as a community doctor. He is the named doctor for child protection for Leicester City and County Primary Care Trusts.

CLEARLY LEICESTER TAKE CHILD PROTECTION VERY SERIOUSLY, but then again, he did protect quite a few kids!

viv said...

Mum21 said...

I am very impressed with the work of pyschologists who I often called on to help me with offenders who were seriously abusing drugs just to try and forget, to block out their horrible childhoods. I think this is why I get so angry when I read the sort of comments made by ignorant people like Bum, 21! When did she ever once stop to consider what those twins have suffered, never mind their rotten educated parents who have the wit to help themselves!

Viv x

Monday, 13 October 2008 17:31:00 o'clock BST

Now I know without a shadow of doubt that you are a fake and a fraud Viv. You are embarking on dangerous ground with me here.
Heavy drug users are rarely cured by pyschologists. Neither are many of them lured into drug taking by bad parenting. Very many heavy drug users come from happy families...and their upbringing has nothing at all to do with their habit. Drug taking is normally brought on by association....in other words the company a person keeps. Some youngsters play with drugs..then walk away. Others are hooked from day one. It is the luck of the game.(or should I say the bad luck of the game). In my long working life I have had dealings with hundreds of distraught parents...at the end of their tether due to drugs. These parents are the long term sufferers...not their children. These parents are the ones who feel helpless...not their children.

And don't come back at me saying I am talking cr-p.....because I can assure you on this subject I am not.
13 October 2008 21:51

Mum21 I can assure you that you are, please do not take my word for it, I am accustomed to seeking out academic research (see below for example), that is what I had to do to get such a good second degree to qualify as a Probation Officer. You on the other hand seem to believe that all parents are wonderful and the first time someone chases the dragon they are hooked!! There is an old saying, you cannot reason with a fool, you prove the point!



Home Office Research Study 258

Youth homelessness and substance use: report to the drugs and alcohol research unit

Full report available at

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hors258.pdf


Childhood experiences of running away from home can be a precursor to later periods of
homelessness (Ravenhill, 2000). Fifty-eight per cent (n=93) of the sample answered yes to
the question ‘before you were 16 did you ever run away for a period longer than a day?’9
The median number of times they had run away from home was four. The vast majority
(n=82) of those who stated that they had run away from home could be classified as ‘serial
runaways’ (Lawrenson, 1997). These young people had established patterns of running
away, usually to escape abuse or rejection, with a danger of drifting into homelessness,
prostitution or residential or substitute care.

Given that many of the sample were living with their parent(s) prior to becoming homeless,
it is unsurprising that many of the reasons given for homelessness related to the family. The
most common explanation offered was family conflict, usually with one or both parents or a
step-parent10 (n=49). Drug and alcohol use was mentioned by 33 interviewees (21%). This
was the second most common explanation (see Chapter 4). The third most frequent
explanation was experiencing abuse within the family, foster family or children’s home
(n=32). This fits with the findings of other studies on homeless young people (Carlen, 1996;
Hutson and Liddiard, 1994). The agency staff interviewed offered similar explanations.
As well as explaining their reasons for leaving home, the young people described the
manner in which they left. In some instances the young people chose to leave, although it
must be recognised that in many cases their choices were constrained ones. Their
departures were rarely planned and they had sometimes left suddenly because of a specific
instance such as an argument or violent episode. In other cases, they were ‘forced’ to leave,
sometimes with little notice. The implications for young people were that they often found
themselves with nowhere to go, sometimes with little notion of how to access agencies that
might be able to help them and lacking awareness of the difficulties of securing
accommodation.

viv said...

"Heavy drug users are rarely cured by pyschologists."

Cured from what Mum21, their addiction or the reason they became addicted in the first place?

Offenders who are routinely using Class A drugs that has a clear link to their offending behaviour are placed on a Drug Rehabilitation Requirement, unless they pose such a danger to the public or their offending is so prolific they need to be sent down. As part of that offenders undergo a course of cognitive behavioural therapy in the form of a programme "Offender Substance Abuse Programme". This was developed by psychologists but is delivered by Probation Officers or their Assistants. Psychologists are in short supply and tend to treat the underlying condition, i.e. why is this man aggressive and violent, this man who was seriously abused by his parents as a child? With scarce resources offenders with the most serious problems get appointments with psychologists, the vast majority are dealt with by their probation officer and medical staff at the Drugs Team.

I am trying to keep this simple for you but you just do not know what you are talking about, do you? You do not even mention talking to young adults about their drug use, so how could you!!

In just the same way you only talk about Kate and Gerry McCann, you demonstrate not the slightest trace of concern for their children, one of whom, we will never see again and the other two will have to live with that, not that you can imagine what that will mean for them, you simply do not have the capacity or human empathy to understand that. That is what makes you a "Pro-McCann".


It also makes you the fake!

Do not threaten and do not lecture, you are hopeless at both and those who feel the need to threaten actually feel very threatened and insecure themselves! Serious offenders do it all the time.. Psychological training for you:-)))

xxxxxxxx

nancy said...

Good morning everyone:

Gerry will be pleased: there is an e-mail going around entitled e-mailing: madeline.pdf. (it's the wrong spelling of course).

I received it from a friend this morning but couldn't open it for some reason.

If any of you receive it and can open it, I'd be interested to know what it says!

Nx

ICantThinkOfAName said...

An interesting contribution by "spudgun" on 3A this morning.


REAL NEW HOPE in those 30, 000 Police File Documents!!

by spudgun on Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:31 am
I can't believe that Christmas is just around the corner! Thanks for all the great e-mails that many of you have sent over the Months, (thanks’ also for the abuse and threats; it makes me a little happier knowing that some people despise the fact that there are those who would challenge the Deities of their Holiness's Gerry and Kate, patron Saints of Rothley!!).

Despite the fact that I have posted very little here over the Months, I have dropped in whenever I could. And it is truly great to see so many regular names, week in and week out, keeping this Forum alive and kicking; and kick it must, if it is to avoid the mighty sword of C. Mitchell Esq. and his band of merry Media monitors who successfully put paid to the MIRROR Forum. The 3 Arguido's has, unquestionably, replaced the MF as the Forum of choice for curious journo's keeping an ear to the ground, and it is all due to the persistence and maintenance of its continued members and admin team, for which we should all be truly grateful. Rest assured that this Forum is loved and loathed in fairly equal measures!!

I have long opined that this case is effectively hopeless; pretty much from the outset. I have always maintained that, far from knowing what happened on that night in May 2007 and whether or not Kate and Gerry were in any way complicit in the disappearance of their daughter, my interest and dismay over this case has always centred on what I have always perceived to be a Government and Media that is hell bent on ensuring that we were always, effectively as a whole NATION, coerced into a unified conclusion:- That Madeleine McCann was abducted; that the Portuguese Authorities, its Press and its People were useless and ineffective at best, lying, scheming and fabricating at worst.

Oh, and that Kate and Gerry were deserving of all our utmost sympathy, reverence, adulation. And money. Preferably lots of it. All donors welcome. Deserving also, (apparently), of attention from several of the wealthiest business people in the country. Pure coincidence, of course, that most of them were also major LABOUR party funds donors.

What with blessings and tidings from the Vatican, private jets galore, meetings with world dignitaries, dinners at the Whitehouse, invitations from EU Legal reform groups, hugs and kisses from every 'Z' list armchair celeb and gossip queen in the land, not to mention billions of fawning, sycophantic, toadying column inches from every columnist in every publication, just about the only things missing were a hand-picked Government spokesman and personal telephone chats from the Prime Minister himself.

Ah, yes. Quite.

So, my friends, as I have often been wont to say, the problem for me is that, not only were uncomfortable and disturbing questions not being answered. They simply weren't being asked. And still aren't.

And just in case there are any journals and publications in the UK who might think about posing a little question or two, make sure your Editor has the funds necessary to contribute to the 'Madeleine' fund. Call me a sodden old cynic, if you must, but given that EVERY SINGLE BROADSHEET, TABLOID AND GUTTER PRESS MAG at some stage over the past 17 Months reproduced comments and tales being published in the Portuguese Press, if I actually had to bet my life on which newspaper would have voluntarily coughed up a huge sum in 'compensation' to the McCanns, the only criteria I would have considered is this:- Which Editor is also a major Labour Party Donor? one who did so, merely to ensure that the Government approved his application for newspaper proprietorship? One who, perhaps, might have to be called on to do the same party a massive favour some time in the future?

Yes indeedy. Richard Desmond, proprietor of that shining beacon of Journalistic excellence, the Daily Express. The same Richard Desmond who amassed a personal fortune from the production, publication and propagation of Pornographic materials for over 30 Years. The same Richard Desmond who has proven past dealings with the New York-based Gambino Mafia/organized crime family. A man who, in any other circumstances, would be more likely to pay Kate McCann £250,000 to pose in a Page 3 spread than by way of compensation.

Ah, yes. I had long ago given up any hope of any serious attention or investigation being apportioned to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann by the British Media. For whatever reasons, and god knows they must be pretty powerful and significant reasons, this was always a case from day ONE, that was destined to be made into something else entirely different from the one that the Portuguese were investigating. This case was destined to go down in history as one of the most perplexing, controversial and heart wrenching missing persons cases of all time.

EXCEPT.

The recent release of the case files regarding the investigation itself, (NOT the courts conclusions but the actual police investigation documents that were submitted to the judge), has been raising a few eyebrows amongst at least two of the British journalists from the comparatively few that have received copies of it. Those papers substantiate a lot of what has been discussed on this and other Forums over the Months, and include a few interesting snippets that were not even leaked in the Portuguese Press. (NB: Please don't ask me to reveal the contents!!! There's nothing there that is THAT amazing, and little that some of didn't already know or believe anyway, but I don't want to set alarm bells ringing in Lawyers offices any more than they have been recently already).

What I CAN say, is that I am personally delighted and re-assured by the apparent overwhelming belief, (amongst the relevant BRITISH Police authorities that have been involved in the McCann case), that the McCanns WERE involved with the demise and disposal of their daughter. I always felt that a large proportion of the British police were towing the official line, (Bungling Porto Plod etc...) but NOT according to the case files. Equally interesting is the statements made by someone who was involved with the handling of Eddie and Keela, who has complained about being 'co-erced' to make comments that reduce the impact and gravity of the dogs 'findings'. Another apparent revelation is that, many Portuguese AND British Police believe that Kate to be ALONE, responsible for the demise of Madeleine, and Gerry for the disposal. Not just a wild 'Forum' babbling after all.

As a consequence of this, I have renewed hope that perhaps a serious investigation will be undertaken in the New Year by at least one, reputable and renowned Media organisation. This will not be easy. The veil of protection that shrouds this case is still strong and thick, with writs and injunctions ready to fly at anyone who dares to suggest ANYTHING, irrespective of what the case papers reveal.

One last, disturbing aspect of this case for me is this:- A personal friend of mine, who is a renowned and respected ex-newspaper editor, who now runs his own Media Consultancy company, was one of the comparatively select few who has SEEN and is having TRANSLATED, the 30,000 pages of notes, documents and evidence from the case. What really astounded him was not these THIRTY thousand pages.

It's the ADDITIONAL, AND COMPLETEY SEPERATE FORTY THOUSAND PAGES that were apparently forwarded to the McCanns legal team in August, for their eyes alone; exempt from those released to the Media.

But just maybe. We may never have those answers.

But there are now going to be questions.


http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=24509

Di said...

Good morning all

ICTOAN

Thanks for Spudgun's post, excellent as always.

40,000 seperate pages given to the McCann's legal team for their eyes only, unbelievable.

Spudgun says what we have always believed, political interference from the highest level, but it still leaves the question WHY?

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Good Morning Di

Whatever the reason for the cover up it must be something that will destroy the reputations of some prominent people.

There is also the matter of the alleged 'D' notices about Operation Ore.

Wizard said...

ICTOAN, thanks for the Spudgun post it was an interesting morning read. The only thing I would disagree with is that he suggests that in the New Year a media investigation might take place. I have heard this argument before but in all honesty can a media investigation be as thorough and long lasting as the Portuguese police investigation – I personally do not think so.

On reading over the past weeks the released pj files it becomes increasingly clear what happened to Madeleine and to a certain extent how she met her death, the disposal of her body and the cover up but unfortunately we are told this is just circumstantial evidence and a conviction would prove difficult on the evidence to date. If more than the parents know the secret of Madeleine’s disappearance and the pressure is kept up someone will spill the beans in time, however, if this is not the case unless new evidence comes to light this case will remain unsolved.

I personally believe that this mystery will be cleared up in time one way or another and a good reason why Viv’s, 3A’s, Joana Morias blogs etc are in their way helping the cause of justice for Madeleine and keeping her memory alive.

LittleGreyCell said...

Morning All,

I was just about to post Spudgun's revelations on here myself... interesting, eh?

Wizard, I have great faith in journalistic investigation: journalists have a kind of backstage pass which the police don't possess. They do not have to abide by stringent Home Office rules in gathering evidence, know how to dig deep and find things out, have terrific networks of contacts and information and are skilled in putting two and two together in a highly creative, thinking-outside-the-box way.

Journalists know a huge load of stuff concerning every topic under the sun that we will never get to hear about because they can't get it into print for one reason or another.

My only concern is that I wonder what will have changed by the New Year that is deterring the media from doing their job now. If there really IS major interference from the highest echelons of politics (which I believe there is), I need to be convinced that this will not be a major barrier to the real truth coming out as soon as the New Year.

You'll notice that Spudgun implies that journalists have been doing their real job from day 1, which also heartens me.

Can't help feeling delighted, although my joy is tempered by a slight scepticism that it will be possible to release information into the public domain within the next few weeks.

Zodiac said...

Hi All,

ICTOAN thanks for Spudguns post. Here is another interesting post from 3 A's.

Post from Redsquare 3 A's.

As you will know, I've been following press coverage of this case like a hawk for a long time now and today has been the most extraordinary day so far. Not because of what has been written but the fact that NOTHING has been written!

On every occasion that Gerry has written a blog, no matter how bland, the press have been all over it like a rash bending it and distorting it into their own agenda. Yet today, the first blog for 2 months and it's been completely ignored.

Gerry always releases his blogs around midnight so that articles can be written overnight in time for the online breakfast slot from 7.30am onwards. It's now 9.00pm and not a sausage has appeared.

There can be no doubt that something has changed.

Even if articles appear tomorrow, a statement has been made by the press today.

I sincerely hope the press have now had time to examine the files and, coupled with this latest hideous and obnoxious blog, the McCanns will never more enjoy such feted coverage. Even The Sun has nothing to say. I think this latest blog was a massive mistake by Gerry.

Of course, ignoring the blog, in itself, won't help find out what happened to Madeleine but a bit of pressure from the press, and the feeling that the tide of public opinion has finally turned, may be just enough pressure to get someone to stand up with the truth.

A little pressure can sometimes cause the biggest cracks.

viv said...

Morning all, sorry cannot post much gas man hear doing the new boiler etc so rather frought (sorry to be so materialistic lol but I love keeping warm)

Just wanted to say I am pleased the file confirms what I always thought the British Police were, and always have been just as committed to dealing with this case in a professional way as the Portuguese have. So watch out Kate and Gerry! I also agree it is vital that we keep the pressure on those guilty people if we are to have any hope of seeing justice for Madeleine and, by that process, justice for thousands of other little children who also are unfortunate enough to have highly abusive parents.

There was a post above could not read a PDF file. You need to go to the Adobe website and download a free adobe acrobat reader!

xxxxx

Di said...

This is interesting from 3A's

It would appear there is no D notice just fear of libel.

Posted by Writer Lyn

I get just a tiny bit sick of the journalist-bashing posts. I accept that many are lacking, lazy and downright frustrating - for me too. However, it would be great not to see this blanket approach for ALL journalists. Some of us are doing as much as we can, researching, filing and submitting information. It's a bit soul-destroying to read this when I'm actually doing quite a bit for Madeleine. It would not be possible for me to list all that I am doing but please rest assured, I am. I consider it well worth the effort, most of it unpaid. There are some of us who do not have the bad traits you list. There are exceptions. It must be remembered that it is not always the reporter at fault in this, too. Editors are the Gods, not us, in the print decisions.

posted by Swifty.

Are you saying that you tried to write about the McCanns, apart from the usual A$$ kissing that the UK media got us used to, and that your Editor "killed" it?

Yes or no?

Posted by writer Lyn

Skeptical - I don't really know what employed journalists are told to write, though I have asked friends who say they've not been given any bans on the McCann case. I am freelance. You have to face the prospect though that these people need to earn money like you and me, to pay their bills. In whatever line you work, you have to basically follow the rules of the company and what the boss says - or get fired. The satisfaction of being morally right doesn't seem so attractive if you make yourself homeless in the process! As I say, I am not one of these people so I don't speak from experience of being told what not to write, I have the equivalent in rejection statements from submitted articles (with no explanation before you ask. The usual 'not right for us at the moment thanks' type of thing). The one thing I am certain of, though, is the reluctance more and more to risk libel cases. Not only is it costly, a hassle to prepare the case, it also brings a newspaper into disrepute.

Swifty: Yes.

viv said...

Hiya Di

Well if journalists report on the contents of the police file they have been given for that specific purpose, quite lawfully, they are clearly not getting involved with libel law. Of course they only have 30,000 pages out of 70,000!

I think it is likely the 40000 pages we have not seen may contain even worse stuff - what LP wanted held back for a prosecution! Must ensure the McCanns can get a fair trial even if we have already made up our minds the Police are correct - Kate killed Madeleine and Gerry cleaned up the mess for her - if ever a title earned themselves the title GRUESOME TWOSOME.

KEEP LUGGING AWAY AT THAT 400000 PAGES WITH YOUR LAWYERS GEZ I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME SEEDS OF COMFORT THERE. SOME POLICE OFFICER WHO DID NOT QUITE FOLLOW PROCEDURE OR WHATEVER, BOUND TO GIVE A CLEAN SLATE, I AM SURE:-)

Trust me Gez and all other Gez lovers, we are going nowhere!

JUSTICE FOR MADDIE!

viv said...

COUPLE!

ICantThinkOfAName said...

If you want to read something written with REAL feeling, see our old friend Big L's contribution on 3A entitled:

"without wanting to offend anyone BUT"



http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=24518

viv said...

Carter-Ruck chill The man who created the modern libel industry was a dedicated liar and a reactionary with a lust for cash


One can clearly relate to how Kate and Gerry have such a bond with this firm! LIARS WITH A LUST FOR CASH THAT JUST SUMS THEM UP.

JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND ALL ABUSED LITTLE CHILDREN X

viv said...

Hiya ICTOAN

I really wish Bigl would apply to come and join us here, I for one really love his clear cut no nonsense style when commenting about the conduct of the Gruesome Twosome!

x

Di said...

Hi Viv

It was refreshing to see there are some journalists trying to get justice for Maddie, it just needs one Editor to have the guts to break rank.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Viv

I am wondering how long the mods will leave Big L's posting on 3A.

I have copied it to my files.

Di said...

Another excellent post from Spudgun.




Just to clarify and augment a couple of points in my listing, and to try and address the queries raised by members who have contacted me via e-mail, (apologies if I haven't responded to you yet):--

We have to assume that the Portuguese authorities are none too happy! (I know I wouldn't be if I'd being bullied, lambasted and abused in the way they have been by the British Government and its Press!); so I think we can safely assume that the release of those documents to certain journalists was by way of hoping that some of their contents be leaked and reported. The problem with that, per se, is that were any of their findings published, then they would be undoubtedly treated the same way as OTHER previous revelations were i.e.: as lies and fabrications by the Portuguese authorities in an attempt to either 'frame' poor Gerry and Kate, or to cover up the Portuguese inadequacies. And that is definitely the workings of an EDITORIAL policy that is being dictated from god knows where!!

When I published a 'template' letter, many months ago on the Mirror Forum, urging readers to copy, paste and send it to their local MP, (the one voicing concerns about how the Portuguese were being treated), you may remember that the letter elicited a shocking response from Piers Merchant/Roger Knapman, who basically called the Portuguese Fascists and added that "'The Portuguese police and judicial system is known to be suspect. Elements of the police are corrupt".

I eventually got the article published in PORTUGAL. It was turned down by several friends and colleagues, who are newspaper journalists, because the editors of their respective journals would not tolerate anything that spoke in derogatory terms about the McCanns or indeed, their case. Indeed, Martin Brunt did a brief piece on it, but only with a slant suggesting that the Portuguese were perhaps to blame because of their 'secrecy laws'.

So I am in complete agreement with the posters here who are defending journos in general. It matters not what the copy writer, journo or sometimes, even editor believes, thinks, or wants to produce. If the newspaper proprietor doesn’t want it printed it doesn't get printed. And whatever else they are, newspaper proprietors and their editors are, ultimately, in it for the kudos and the money. They are not stupid people. As to why they elect specifically, to refuse to contemplate the complicity of Kate and Gerry McCann in the disappearance of their daughter, god only knows.

I shall certainly be looking forward to reading the documents, when they have been translated. I would also like to confirm that it is FORTY thousand ADDITIONAL documents, that have been forwarded to the McCanns and their legal team. These papers have NOT been released to anyone else, anywhere. I am told that amongst these papers are documents relating to the Forensics procedures relating to Birmingham FSS, information which has previously been reported as having been suppressed by British 'officials'. I have yet to ascertain what else may be in those papers. It is not so much a question of them being 'held in secret', as there is NO legal requirement for those papers to be made public. Like I suggested, I believe the documents that HAVE been released were done so by the Portuguese to hopefully try and redress the balance.

For me, it is great news that, (according to the documents), the BRITISH authorities are not buying the official line of the McCanns innocence. I truly always believed that the UK Police were instructed and briefed by those 'on high', with regards the case, and were never really allowed to make any kind of structured investigation of their own. It would appear that nothing could be further from the truth! That, in actual fact, MANY senior police officers are as aghast and as amazed as members of this Forum are that the McCanns never faced charges.

I am informed that during the intense questioning process of Kate McCann in Portugal, she came 'very close' to breaking under duress and making some confession. However, an 'unknown' British individual stepped in and halted the proceedings, resulting in the now famous 'NO COMMENT' statement to over 40 questions. This was witnessed, apparently, by BRITISH Police officers. The identity of this individual who interjected proceedings is , apparently, NOT given in the documents. Not surprisingly, the Portuguese were outraged by this intervention and it is stated that senior officers were adamant that the McCanns be refrained from leaving the country as they believed that charges were going to be very soon made. In fact, they tried to broke a deal with the McCanns lawyers which would allow them to remain 'on bail', whilst investigations and subsequent court proceedings entailed. What happened next is history. The McCanns completed their interrogation and booked the next available flight out, back to UK. They were somehow, allowed to leave. Equally importantly, they were never made to return.

My feeling, at this current point in time, is that any investigation will take the form of a BOOK, rather than a documentary, as the intricate tapestry of a legal minefield that the McCanns have woven around themselves makes it very difficult indeed for anyone to say ANYTHING, (as witnessed by the News of the World barely a MONTH ago, which made a 'contribution' to the McCann fund for publishing extracts from Kate's diary without her permission, even though they said nothing derogatory about her at all; rather, the article slagged off the PORTUGUESE!!!. How do they do it? Slate the Portuguese, big up Kate and Gerry AND get a big fat payment for it to help pay for their mortgage; sorry, to 'Find Madeleine'.)

Of ONE thing I am certain. It is absolutely paramount that this Forum remains; that its members continue to contribute in a healthy, constructive manner and that a gorgeous little girl is never allowed to be forgottenother excellent post from Spudgun.

Di said...

I wonder if the nuknown British individual who stepped in to stop Kate's confession was the British Ambassador.

Good to know the British Police are not being fooled.

Di said...

Sorry unknown.

Zodiac said...

ICOTAN,

I read big_L earlier on. I see the new poster over there (Tyra) who finds the 3 A's unhelpful and hurtful towards the Lord and Lady Mucka has posted several times regarding big-L's post. Tyra thinks the 3 A's is fading! In your dreams Tyra, wishful thinking on your part. The internet is a thorn in the Lord and Lady Muckas side. The fora are here for a long, long time.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hi Zodiac

Tyra has also been involved in the now locked thread entitled "forum name".

I see Big L now wants to send an e-mail of support to Gerry.

Joe said...

I do not agree with spudgun's analysis or conclusions. Who gave the McCann lawyers the 40,000 pages?? If they really had anything incriminating in them it would have been acted upon IMO. It is wishful thinking to suggest that the real journos are on the case, as for the British police who as I have repeatedly said in the past never once questioned the McCanns. Libel or no libel threats would not stop a proper police force from doing their duty. People are entitled to believe what they like but in reality the case is closed whether we accept the outcome or not. There are plenty of unsolved (officially that is) cases in real life, this is just another one. Whenever there is political involvement the doors close and the secrets are kept hidden. This what happened IMO in this case, both in the UK and PT. The conclusion of this case was decided from the start and smacks of privilege and establishment. So much for democracy. We all know it its just that some are ahving trouble coming to terms with it.

Di said...

ICTOAN

I laughed when I read Big L wants to send an e-mail of support to Kate & Gerry.

Di said...

Joe

Good to see you back.

Sadly your comments have deflated me :o((

Di said...

Joe

I asked could it have been the British Ambassador who stopped Kate's interview.

Spudguns response.

I understand that there was quite a LOT of people there. Kate was accomanied by at least one lawyer, (natural enough) Rogerio Alves. Justine McGuiness, the couples then spokesperson, was also there, surprisingly. Anthony Buck WAS there, but I personally do not believe he was the one who interupted proceedings. There was a TEAM of British police who were in an adjacent room, following the interogation, but they were not allowed to partake in the proceedings. There are several reports that refer to a number of other individuals present, (also mentioned in previous leaked reports), and it has previously been suggested, (though not in the released case files,) that these were British security services personnel. I happen to believe that this was probably the case, given that there are reports of their involvement in the days following Madeleine's disappearance in Praia da Luz.

Joe why would so many prominent people be present during Kate's interview?

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Di

Maybe we are back to the "cloning".

Di said...

ICTOAN


Talking of which, what happened to Ecolab I have not seen her around for a while?

Joe said...

Hi Di,

I try to be pragnmatic and realistic. If there was a crime here it will not be the first or last time that people get away with it, it is a simple as that. History is littered with examples. The powers that be rolled in to suppress the case no matter what the truth is. The outcome was decided in advance despite what the PJ or anybody else had in mind and we will have to accept that.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Di

I suspect that Ecolab upset some people. One of her threads on 3A was whoosh-clunked. I have not had a lot of luck tracing her postings (but that may be due to my own failings).

She is still shown as a follower on the site but I haven't seen anything from her for some time.

Doc mac wrote following an e-mail that he had received but not divulged that Ecolab was correct.

nancy said...

Hi Joe -

Nice to see you - we've missed your input!

I can see where you are coming from and what you say makes sense but there are also many cases that seem to have died a death for many years and then fate stepped in and brought the criminal to justice, so we really mustn't give up hope that maybe one of those involved, who right now is as silent as the proverbial lamb, will spill the beans through maybe a fall out or clash of opinions with either the McCanns or one of the other tapas pals, or even someone in politics who knows something but is being sworn to secrecy right now. In other words, in time a mole might decide to come out of that hole!

nancy said...

Viv -

Thanks for the advice - I'll download Adobe.

Must go off and read Big L's latest - I agree, it would be great to have him on here - he really says it like it is!


Nx

Joe said...

Hi Nancy,

Thank you, its nice to talk to you. I do'nt disagree with what you say and other cases that are often solved down the road.

This case is different IMO in that the powers that be probably do know the facts and what happened and thats the paradox or dilemma. Having backed the Tapas 9 and blocked and hampered any real official investigation then that will be the final stance. It is not as if they will be waiting for further evidence. The powers that be cannot go back. Power and money can make anything happen.

nancy said...

Joe -

Yes, I see what you say because if anyone did come out of the woodwork and go to the media they could be accused of preventing the due process of law at the time of the investigtions of course. However, there are some people in this world who will do anything to earn a some easy money even if they do put their good name in jeopardy so I think it could happen in time.

Di said...

Hi Joe

Do you mean saving face!

As that is what I have said all along. GB got involved with this case because he was a new DAD, plus it would look good for his career. Several other Labour supporters jumped on the bandwagon, then unfortunately, when discrepancies started to come out, and the McCann's were being implicated along with their friends, they had nowhere to turn.

As I said earlier saving face imo.

nancy said...

Viv -

I've sent you the e-mail regarding Madeleine that is going round in cyberspace, in fact some of you may already have received it, but in case you don't open it for a while, here is what it says:

"Please read this message and pass it on!!!!!!!!

As you are aware my niece, Madeleine, is still missing and I am asking you to send it to everyone you know and ask them to do the same as the story is only being covered in Britain, Eire and Portugal.

We don't believe that she is in Portugal any more and need to get her picture and the story across Europe as quickly as possible.

Suggestions are welcome!

Phil McCann"

Underneath the message are pictures of Madeleine, highlighting her eye defect - as if the whole world isn't aware of that and what Madeleine looks like!!

Di said...

Nancy

I do hope you are right :o))

Di said...

Perhaps my post did not explain exactly quite what I meant to say.

I do believe there is a cover up of the real truth, but I also think it is to save many peoples reputations, I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Joe said...

Nancy,

You may well be right, if any of them grow a conscience or a backbone that is.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Nancy

I received the same e-mail some months ago and did pass it to Viv who commented on the blog at the time.

I sent to the sender of my copy something which showed the McCanns in their true light and asked that it be passed back down the chain.

Perhaps a youtube video or the Birthday photos might suitable.

Joe said...

Hi Di,

Yes perhaps once committed to the cause roll with it no matter what, even if the story changes and its realized that a huge mistake has been made. Having backed a cause wrongly a politician cannot afford to let it come back and bite and be accused of extremely bad judgementespecially if you are in a very high political position. Image is paramount.

Di said...

Hi Joe

Glad you got my meaning.

I would love to know your opinion of Brian Kennedy, and why you think he has committed his financial backing for the rest of his life if necessary, to the cause of the McCann's?

Di said...

OCTOAN

I also received the e-mail but did not have your quick thinking :o((

I also received one from Jon Corner along similar lines.

At least I now know what to do.

dylan said...

Good evening all!

Joe, nice to see you back :-)
Hello Di - I'm not sure what to make of spudgun's posts. I think they are encouraging but I still fail to see why our government would want to protect these two. Maybe there is deeper involvement that we don't know about, maybe there are ties that we don't know about but it's all so frustrating!

Hello ICTOAN. I followed your link to 3as to look at Big L's posts but I couldn't find which heading it was under. I'm still not used to finding my way around that site!

xx

ICantThinkOfAName said...

dyl

Big L is under


"without wanting to offend anyone BUT "

I've just brought it back to near the top of the first active topics page.

Di said...

Hi Dyl

Spudgun's posts, I agree with what you are saying, but maybe it is not Kate & Gerry our government are actually protecting but they just happened to get involved, although, if that is the case I do not know why!

This whole situation is so frustrating, I dont even know what I believe anymmore.

Off now,

Enjoy your evening all.

nancy said...

Dylan -

You can go into any of the 3A's headings and just change the number at the end of the www.the3aguidos......

The number you need to put in for Big L's blog is 24518, after deleting the one you bring up.

I hope that's a bit clearer than mud!

I'm sure someone else can explain it better than me!

nancy said...

Di -

It could be that some VIP, or a relative of one, was on that holiday spree and quickly caught the first plane out of Portugal to make damn sure the case was not ever going to get a fair hearing; thus enabling the McCanns and their tapas pals to get away with gross neglect and abandonment.

At least we now know that the British Police are not convinced of the McCann's innocence in Madeleine's disappearance, so we should hold on to that!

nancy said...

I'm off to do a spot of reading and my cryptic crossword, so see you all again tomorrow and let's hope it's a lovely day like it was today!

JUSTICE FOR MADELEINE!

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Nancy

Enjoy the rest of your evening.

Zodiac said...

Tyra has also been involved in the now locked thread entitled "forum name".

ICOTAN,

My comment to Tara was removed by a mod. Tara (he/she/it) was moaning how she/he/it hated it when her name was shortened by anyone rather than family.

All I posted was:

How on earth is Deborapantsofya a shortened name.

Yet I see posts telling Tara (he/she/it) to STFU.

Tara = P/pops imo.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

zodiac

Sorry about your post on 3A.

I hadn't formed an opinion about the identity of Tyra but you may well be correct.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Claudia

Where are you?

It's nearly 201.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Claudia

Everyone is nervous of making the next post.

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