14 Apr 2010


Typically the sort of bruise that can clearly be seen to Kate's elbow, arm holding phone, is caused in domestic violence cases when someone shoves you backwards with considerable force into a wall. I wonder if that is how Kate got it? She also had bruising to face, visible split over her eye, and grab mark bruising to the arms. This certainly suggests there was considerable disharmony between Kate and Gerry around the time Maddie disappeared given these pictures showing the bruising were immediately after that sad event. Looking at the build of Gerry and Kate it is not at all difficult to see who would be on the losing side. Neither is it difficult to see this man has a very abusive temper. Of course there are a lot of bloggers who will very aggresively tell you she is no poor domestic violence case, they will also tell she killed Madeleine. But I can tell you he is the type to dish out a bit of domestic violence if anyone should dare to disagree with him and he is also the type to have bloggers posting for him. A discussion of such clear evidence in the case should not really provoke an aggressive reaction from "normal" people, should it? I do not think these "Pro Gerry" bloggers who pretend they are something else could be described as anything like normal. Pointing out Kate was covered in bruises, something Fiona Payne ultimately sought to make excuses for several months later, is not making excuses for her, it is simply pointing out a fact. But there are people who simply want you to ignore the facts in this case and listen to their sickening spin. They are men and it is not just women they can be abusive to, but children as well, like little Madeleine.

That vicious look with angry pursed up lips at Kate, as they hold their posters in this stage managed world publicity campaign to make Gerry look like some innocent man says it all really, he cannot hold his vile temper long enough to ever look innocent. That look says "you blow this and God help you and your kids".

'British police said McCanns should be investigated after Madeleine went missing'

By Vanessa Allen
Last updated at 7:30 AM on 11th February 2010
was made a suspect in his daughter Madeleine's disappearance after a British expert said he should be investigated for 'homicide', a Portuguese court heard yesterday.
Criminal profiler Lee Rainbow recommended that police on the Algarve investigate the doctor and his wife Kate because of 'contradictions' in his statement.
The report by Mr Rainbow, of the National Policing Improvement Agency, was sent to in June 2007, a month after the three-year-old disappeared.
Kate and Gerry McCann
Kate and Gerry McCann outside court in Lisbon yesterday. They are suing Mr Amaral for libel over his allegations that the couple faked Madeleine's death
It was dramatically produced yesterday by lawyers for a disgraced Portuguese detective whose campaign of vilification the McCanns are trying to stop.
The couple want Gonzolo Amaral to be legally barred from accusing them of being involved in Madeleine's disappearance.
The detective was sacked from the investigation after he made an outspoken attack on English police, accusing them of failing to investigate the McCanns. He has since retired from the police force.
His lawyer Antonio Cabrita, reading from a Portuguese translation of the previously- confidential report, said: 'The family is a lead that should be followed.
Gonzolo Amaral
The McCanns want Gonzolo Amaral (pictured yesterday) to be legally barred from accusing them of being involved in Madeleine's disappearance
'The contradictions in Gerald McCann's statement might lead us to suspect a homicide. This is a lead that should be investigated.'
The lawyer added: 'Portuguese police had only considered the abduction theory. It was British police who said they must consider homicide as well.'Well indeed, whether they had her abducted or whether they killed her
Mr Cabrita did not outline what ' contradictions' had been found in Mr McCann's statements and refused to give any further details after the hearing.
Mr Rainbow, 37, leads a team of five criminal profilers at the NPIA, and specialises in sex crimes and murders.
The Home Office agency, which describes itself as 'part of the police service', aims to improve police use of information, evidence and science and to support operations.
It is understood to have provided Portuguese police with a 'checklist' of how to proceed.
A spokesman said last night: 'In disappearance cases it is common for the NPIA to advise officers to consider the possibility of the involvement of family and close friends.
'This is good practice for investigating cases. The NPIA gave similar generic advice to Portuguese police.'
Mr Rainbow, who has worked on major investigations including the Ipswich prostitute murders and the disappearance of , did not say there was any evidence the McCanns were involved.
But his confidential report appears to have been a turning point in the Portuguese investigation.
Madeleine's distraught parents were named as official suspects a few weeks later, despite Portuguese police failing to find any evidence against them.
Madeleine McCann
The report by Mr Rainbow, of the National Policing Improvement Agency, was sent to Portugal in June 2007, a month after three-year-old Madeleine disappeared
Mr and Mrs McCann, both 41, listened intently as Mr Cabrita said Mr Amaral should be allowed to repeat his claims that they were involved in Madeleine's disappearance.
The 50-year-old ex-detective has alleged in a new book that she died in a 'tragic accident' and her parents faked an abduction.
Lawyers for the McCanns say he is using the book and the court case to take 'revenge' on them for the end of his career.
Mr and Mrs McCann, from Rothley, Leicestershire, are suing Mr Amaral for libel over his allegations and are seeking £1.2million in damages and compensation.
They have won an injunction which bars him from repeating his allegations but he is trying to overturn it, claiming it affects his right to freedom of speech.
The hearing ended yesterday, and the judge will give her verdict next Thursday.
, a former GP, admitted last night that she had found it painful to listen to three days of evidence in the court. But she insisted the couple had been right to take legal action.
She said: 'I think this will truly help the search for Madeleine and that's why we have gone through with it. It hasn't been easy but if it helps, then we will go through anything.'


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viv said...

"They are suing Mr Amaral for libel over his allegations that the couple faked Madeleine's death"

Well you know I think the Daily Mail were trying to tell us something here, notice they drop out "faked death" rather than "faked abduction"

That is because they really did fake her death and they really did have her abducted.

viv said...

But Goncalo Amaral was bound to be injuncted from further commenting on this case. As an ex police officer he should and I am sure he does know they are not allowed to speak out concerning the details of an ongoing investigation. That could seriously harm the cause of justice.

And his main theory is clearly wrong anyway and just what Gerry wanted people to think but knew could not be proved. Maddie died in the apartment either because of Kate or because of an accident.

viv said...

See his beatific grin outside The Whitehouse as he dreams of how rich and famous he will become, fund rolling away very nicely, all those dreams and visions, Maddie the Movie, politicians in the states talking to him, invites to the Whitehouse, chats on the phone to Gordon Brown, Richard Branson, top footballers, wow how fab...they are my mates and I can be as rich as them almost, what a flipping prat eh! Who would dream up a plan to get rid of their daughter with the ultimate aim of being rich and famous, the infamous Gerry McCann!

viv said...

Cadaver odour is found on Sean's t shirt with a picture of an aeroplane on and the words "up, up and away".

Then Gerry blogs, Sean has developed a taste for sea bass ( a source of cadaver odour)

If anyone cannot see the sick little puppy who has been engineering all of this they have not been looking very hard.

viv said...

I think there may be friends or relatives reading this blog.

I would just ask you this, why don't you put innocent little children first instead of scheming adults and do the right thing for Madeleine and the Twins?

Speak to Jim Gamble of CEOP or Leicester Police.

viv said...

Kate McCann commenting on the utility of the court action against Goncalo Amaral

"we have shown again, that there is no evidence that we were involved and there is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm"

A more self serving and repulsive statement from a mum who claims to be looking for her abducted daughter, missing now for almost three years, in their own words likely "taken" by stalking paedophiles, it is very hard to imagine.

Wizard said...

Hi Viv,

I’ve just been pondering about how dogs follow a scent. Is it an air borne scent or is it scent from the ground or a combination of both they follow? Does the scent remain longer if there is no wind, rain etc. How long does the scent remain when the area has been contaminated by others walking across or through it?

Madeleine had not only been down to the supermarket she had also been down to the beach and as they had no buggy at that time she would have walked. So if the dogs did pick up a scent there wouldn’t be a problem in explaining it away. If she was carried, as per the Smith’s sighting, would the scent still be easy to pick up by the dogs. If she was transported in a sports bag or suitcase would the scent still be easy to follow and if she was put in a car the scent would of course stop when she entered it. Cadaver dogs were not used initially so the dogs employed were only trained to look for a live scent and unsurprisingly couldn’t find one.

I think whichever way you look at it Gerry was safe to ask for dogs to be called in. Dogs cannot follow a scent through water and being so close to the sea this would be a logical way to dispose of a body but unfortunately there is a flaw inasmuch as how could the body have been retrieved and then moved somewhere else at a later date? There is no record of the T9 having access to a boat for a long period of time.

If we assume Madeleine was dead when initially concealed perhaps the injuries were such they could have been put down to the abductor. In other words Gerry wanted her found but the initial searches missed her. Although this seems unlikely it does happen and could have happened here – Gerry could hardly tell the police where she was without incriminating himself.

After all this time it is still a bit of a mystery.

viv said...

Also from the Daily Mail not saving the McCanns latest "investigator" Dave Edgar:

"The list continues, with the British press recalling that, if it wasn’t for the journalists, the investigators wouldn’t have heard about the arrival of a luxury yacht shortly after Madeleine’s disappearance, "

I suppose the problem is for Dave Edgar he only investigates that which Kate McCann gives him to investigate. Maybe the arrival of a luxury yacht and the owner of it just slipped her mind?

Di said...

Hi Viv

As much as I can understand where you are coming from, I just cannot imagine any parent no matter how bad things were would have their own child abducted or even deliberately kill her.

I can certainly imagine either Kate or Gerry lashing out in temper, and causing Madeleine's demise or Madeleine having a tragic accident whilst her parents were not there.

Kate was asked during her questioning if it was true that she had considered giving Madeleine to a relative. I have always believed Madeleine did not have a colomboma, if so it would have been listed on her passport but it was not, the distinguishing feature was a small birthmark. Madeleine's photos immediately ready to hand over, although showing a very young looking child. It would have been impossible for any of the public to have spotted Madeleine if she was out there, and Kate & Gerry have continued to show the most oddly aged photos ever since.

Would it be impossible for Madeleine to have been handed over to family or a very good friend. I know I am dreaming but I would rather that than think Madeleine was deliberately killed.

viv said...

Hiya Wiz and thanks for pondering my query about scenting from the other page.

I think that commonly dogs and wolves from which they descend hunt their prey by scenting the air. Any tracker dog is obviously being trained to utilise that hunting skill and their fantastic sense of smell.

I agree Gerry would have had no real problem insisting on tracker dogs being brought out because he had laid so many scent trails of Madeleine he knew the dogs would be confused. It made him sound like a normal father who wanted her to be found. That is what I was getting at when I referred to him often specifically talking about the routes he took with Madeleine taking her to the creche etc.

Grime himself tells us about the dogs air scenting as well as then focussing in on finding a specific source of the scent. He told us that in the bedroom Eddie has his nose in the air scenting the air, he was looking up toward the wardrobe shelves as though possibly some contaminated clothing had once been on there, he could still smell it but the source was no longer there.

In the living room it was different, Eddie honed in on a specific area he had found something, so Keela is brought in and the blood and other traces of DNA too minute too even say what bodily fluid they are were found. But I do think it is interesting that the spray of some bodily fluid up the wall belonged to a European male! If luminol had already been used those samples would have been damaged further of course.

So, no, I do not agree that if Madeleine had been carried either as in the Smith sighting, which I no longer believe, or inside a blue holdall which I do believe, her scent could not have still been picked up by the dogs. As you say, given that it stops at the Batista supermarket that would indicate she was then put into a car. If my theory is correct and Gerry deliberately set up a "tennis theme" that night so that he could be carrying that bag and no look suspicious, that kind of fits.

But I do think that ultimately she was on a large luxury yacht. And I think Gerry's very rich and incredibly helpful friend knows all about that.

Di said...


Going back to yesterday when I mentioned the files the PJ were holding back. This has been mentioned by Joana Morais, Astro etc., several times. They said only certain files were being released.

So are you saying LP will definitely have copies of all these files. If so then I can understand why Gerry does not want LP involved in a review.

viv said...

Hiya Di

I think you now seem to accept that those old and confusing pictures of Madeleine were put out for a very specific reason, the same reason they did not mention the reward, they did not want anyone to spot Madeleine. They even lied and said she only answers to Madeleine, when we know it is Maddie.

I am afraid from all the sick and manipulative behaviour I have noted from Gerry anything is possible.

But you ask, is it possible that she has just been spirited off somewhere and is safe and well, yes I think that is possible too. But this was most definitely a planned and deliberate disappearance.

YOur nice scenario is remote but we can but pray for little Maddie.

viv said...

Hiya again Di,

Yes there are specific EU rules about countries co-operating with each other in the conduct of criminal investigations and the Portuguese will most certainly have handed over everything to British Police.

This spin that is being put out that there is anything at all Jim Gamble does not know about is just that!

Remember the words of Mrs Justice Hogg, jurisdiction is assumed because...

viv said...

Di, I think from reading the official PJ description of little Maddie to Interpol, she does have some minor blip on her eye, and one eye is a different colour to the other but nothing like a colomboma, that was a marketing ploy.

Odd eyes would actually have been nearer the mark, including my mum and David Bowie!

viv said...

Ah Wiz, Just read your post again, and you are being very clever again I think!

You say rain would perhaps get rid of the odour, yes it would, I do not know to what extent but you are right dogs struggle when it comes to water, they lose the scent. And on the Wednesday it rained. So all the scent trails Gerry has set up for Maddie may have been washed away, so the ones that were left..

viv said...

oh lol the Madeleine discussion pages disappear right before your eyes on "Missing Madeleine"

I had just been reading a post by Bren saying do not worry all will be resolved when Jim Gamble gets his comeuppance and then WHOOSH

Seems like my determination to show these Pro McCann bloggers up for what they are is finally paying off, no one seems to be posting on 3 Arguidos either, what a shame eh Bren, did the money run out?


viv said...

and then my visitor from Leicester decided to remove their visit to this blog, but I already noticed it, how very strange...

viv said...

In addition to grabbing a screenshot, I thought I would also just grab all the usernames to that lovely site, so keen on Justice for Maddie: (I am not saying you are all bent, I mean I used to post on there and found it fascinating)

Registered Users: 4timesanan, Alfiefinn, Alpine Aster, amethyst, ann_chovey, AnnaEsse, Antoinette, Badboy, Fudge, Hare, jay2001, kitti, Lilemor, mara thon, MCXLIII, princess_leia, Roasted Arizona, squeaker, wjk
Bots : Google
Members connected during last 24 hours : 4timesanan, Alfiefinn, ali1966, Allstar, Alpha, Alpine Aster, AMcCutcheon, amethyst, Ang, AnnaEsse, ann_chovey, AntiCS, Antoinette, Arguida, auntiefi, Badboy, beausnanna, Bebootje, blossom45, Blueeyes, bramble, Bridgieboo, buildersbum, CaptnMorgan, carlymichelle, Carolina, chrissie, Christina, Christine, Colonel Fabien, contrary, David, dazedandconfused, Dimsie, dutchclogs, Eleanor, Estelle, Faithlilly, flower, flubber, frankie stein, frencheuropean, fruitcake, Fudge, Gabbie, gilly4, Gobsmacked, Hare, hobnob, hollie4, hyacinth bookay, Indigo, Jacqui67, jassi, jay2001, Jean-Luc, Jem, jenagain, Jennifer, jimuck, jinvta, JOHNFRANCIS, jojo, jozi, justjoined, Karen, kazzyjo, keepingmum, Kiri, kitti, krissie, Krisy22, kujo, laci, laurie, lea, Lilemor, LindaDA, Lioned, LJC, lnorton, Loopdaloop, louiseh, lubelle, lynn, macy, maebee, malena stool, mancmum, mara thon, margaret, Marky, maryh20, MCXLIII, mgunnill, MilkyWay, MissBlonde, mrbrightside, Mystycal, nannyg, nospinnaker, Ollybelle, oversoon, Panda, princess_leia, quickfingers, Quincy, RIORITA, Roasted Arizona, roisin, sam, sans_souci, squeaker, steve1295, SteveT, suzyone, T4two, tabs, tanszi, The Famous Grouse, the slave, Wallflower, wantthetruth, welshy, wjk, woodward, xtina, zodiac

viv said...

But Zodiac/Zephyr immediately jumps out at me as one who simply cannot be trusted and is worth naming and shaming xx

Di said...

Hi Viv

I keep hearing about people doing screenshots before items are whoosed, how do you do it?

Di said...

Just read of MCF that Rosie is now targeting Hewlett's wife and the " viral video" was aimed at relatives of the abductor. Rosie is hoping Hewlett's German wife will now talk.

IMO the only reason she would talk is if she has been paid a very nice sum to care for her children for the future.

viv said...

Hiya Di,

Luke installed a thing called snagit for me which seems to work like a charm! See the Missing Madeleine forum warning page where I have put up a perfect screen shot, well thrilled with that!

Poor old Jim Gamble, Paedophile Hunter, it seems Missing Madeleine has now gone into closed session like Tony Bennett/Jill Havern (who regularly pop across here and nick things off this site)

But just managed to get an example on the cache of how this bunch of creeps have got it in for him:

Re: The new Madeleine McCann Re-Investigation: Jim Gamble doesn’t bring clean hands to it
Badboy Today at 01:06

.It looks like murat,he is advancing towards the table on right hand side.
as it is blurred,can't be 100% sure who it is.

I would rather touch the hands of Jim Gamble than a paedophile any day!

viv said...

I mean the "new Madeleine re-investigation" what a load of old cobblers, and that is my best legal speak I can offer it!

Di said...

Thanks Viv

I will google and see if I can figure it out.

Hubby, bless his little cotton socks, felt the need to watch footie again tonight and asks if I am happy on my laptop, you bet I am I have much to catch up on after being away. Of course being the devoted wife that I am, I pander to his every need, glass of wine dear, do take your time no rush ;o))

viv said...

Hiya Di

Sick old Rosie and what can be bought eh?

It has played its part well as the Pro side of the debate.

I have the distinct feeling things are very bad indeed for Team McCann.


viv said...

Ah Di, speaking of men, you remind me I need to get off the computer, go and prepare Luke a meal and then go and fetch him from work, poor abused little brat is he not, lol!

Di said...

Night Viv

viv said...

See you tomorrow Di,

Ah the voice of reason once more SB, is still being allowed to post his/her views on Jo Morais blog, very well said whoever you are !

14/04/2010 16:20
S.B. said... 44

Would someone out there who persistently advocate a 'conspiracy theory' please explain on what basis you formulate your opinions as I am at a loss to understand your thinking.

Firstly, if the Mccanns are being protected why do you think they would be permitted to maintain a high public profile which clearly achieves nothing but the Mccanns own objective of proclaiming their innocence and diverting attention from the truth. Moving on to the CEOP and Jim Gamble, do you truly believe that someone in such a prominent position would openly support two individuals who are the prime suspects in a very serious criminal investigation? Do you truly think that the police release into the public domain details of a criminal investigation? Do you truly believe the police would shelve an unresolved case involving a missing child? Do you truly believe that the British police are not in possession of all information relevant to the investigation? Why would Mccann be so desperate to get his grubby little mitts on the secreted files if afforded with powerful protection? Would he not be in a position to kick his feet up, bask in his own sunshine and STFU?

Do you truly believe that the government, police force, law courts, press of both Britain and Portugal would be prepared to stick their neck on the block just to protect two insignificant individuals? One small time cardiologist and his wife who can't seem to decide quite what branch of medicine she is most suited to.

I have said before and I say again - all this information that is being grossly distorted throughout the internet is nothing but spin created by the Mccanns and their hired accomplices. G. Mccann is clearly the master of manipulation and some people out there have been caught 'hook, line and sinker' by his continuous attempts at controlling the situation he has created for himself and his devoted wife. He has publicly stated his desire to 'control the investigation', to plan a long term awareness strategy, to 'create' information, to campaign for public support - if that’s not a guilty narcissistic control freak I don't know what is!

So please once and for all explain to me your line of reasoning!

The Mccanns survival tactics have come to an end, they have run out of options and they are rapidly running out of time! Hence their latest pathetic attempt to convince the public that they have powerful forces on side! Dream on.......

viv said...

If you are looking in SB, you would be extremely welcome on this blog!

All you need is a google account.


viv said...

A.Dubliner is getting very cross with me and SB on Jo Morais blog:

"Picture this scenario: Later on the night Madeleine was gone Gerry MCCann got word to jane Tanner telling her he needed an alibi because he had been witnessed carrying Madeleine off by not just one person but a whole family., Tanner duly obliges a few hours later when she suddenly remembers seeing a pimpleman etc etc Gerry now has his alibi to conteract what the Smiths had witnessed,"

I am trying to conjure up the picture you describe A.Dubliner but I just cannot stop laughing.

As you say in your next furious missive to me, you are getting a bit neurotic (note the correct spelling I know you have trouble with that)

All I can say is do try to calm down dear and



viv said...

Dare I mention again that Mrs Justice Hogg made Madeleine a Ward of Court on 2 April 2008 overturning the McCanns applications the previous year to have her returned to them, or would that just make you explode?

Oh shucks @-)))))

viv said...

02-Processo Vol 2 Pages 467 and 468.
McCANN Madeleine Beth CONTROL NO. : F-131/5-2007

FILE No. : 2007123403

(Photograph of Madeleine)

PRESENT Family Name : McCANN
Forenames : Madeleine Beth
Sex : F
DATE AND Place OF Birth: 12th May 2003 - Leicester, United Kingdom
Also known as Maddie.
IDENTITY DOCUMENTS - BRITISH PASSPORT No 45XXXXXXX, issued on 4th August 2003 (UNITED KINGDOM) (Valid until 4th August 2008)
Occupation : N/A
Language Spoken : English
HEIGHT : 90 cms
HAIR : Blond
EYE: Green/Blue
BUILD : Slim
Left Eye : Blue and Green colour
Right Eye : Green colour with a Brown spot in Retina
Small brown mark on Left Leg Calf.
Teeth : EUA



On 3rd May 2007 around 21h40 Madeleine McCann disappeared from a floor level apartment at "Aideamento Turistico Ocean Club?.
She was on holidays with her parents and at the moment of disappearance, the child was alone in the apartment.

CLOTHING: White trousers with floral pattern; T-shirt short sleeves, predominantly pink colour, with the drawing of a coloured blue and grey donkey on the front, and the word "EEYORE?

Issued in order to locate this person.
If traced, place her in the care of a Child Welfare Organisation and contact her Country?s nearest Diplomatic Representative.
Please send any Information available to : INTERPOL, LISBON, (NCB reference : 1806-MIN of 8 May 2007) and the lCPO-INTERPOL General Secretariat.

viv said...

Detail of Madeleine's odd eyes which the McCanns never seem to have mentioned/brown spot on retina.

It is very interesting the time of disappearance is given here as 21.40, not 21.15. Having been interested in this case from the very outset that was certainly my recollection, it was later that the McCanns started to suggest it was earlier to fit with the apparent "Tanner sighting".

This clearly suggests to me that Gerry was originally minded to make the time of the disappearance later than that and casts even further suspicion on the subsequent spectacular recall of Martin Smith doing precisely that. Of course these things take time to arrange, don't they Gerry and he needed someone who supposedly knew Murat to put him back out of the frame again.

viv said...

Presumably it was originally intended to state that Madeleine must have gone missing after the 9.35 check by Mat Oldfield because he had seen her in bed.

But I would be willing to bet that when Gerry asked him to state he had seen her he was not prepared to do so. That would have been just a lie too far I believe for Mat Oldfield.

Gerry was wanting to make the time of this so called stranger abduction later and later than it actually did happen, probably around 7 that night in the blue tennis bag. Of course there are those who would have us believe he went prowling around PDL with her body! I think Gerry is just a bit sharper than that!

viv said...

and of course the Pt Attorney General completely dismissed the "Smith sighting" in the final report produced.

Well I know what you McCann spinners say to that, it is all a political conspiracy, Portuguese Prosecutors Judges, and the British all in it together to get the McCanns off, all in it together to just try and discredit poor old Goncalo ummm

Goncalo did criticise British Police and he was removed from the case. Then his underling Almeida who wrote that report with such blind faith in the dogs and precious little else asked to be removed from the case also. Now the story goes these two wanted Justice for Maddie and every other member of the British and Portuguese establishment does not.

Oh please!

viv said...

The McCanns did not turn up at the TAPAS until 9 within a few minutes of the Paynes...so what were the McCanns and the Paynes up to prior to 9 pm ?

By Lucy Panton
PORTUGUESE police are concentrating on what they claim is a missing half hour in accounts of the night Madeleine disappeared.
The McCanns told detectives they believed they arrived at the Tapas restaurant at 8.30pm.
But months into the investigation, Portuguese detectives now allege they did not turn up until almost 30 minutes later.
Friends' statements show there may be differences of opinion over what time Kate and Gerry arrived with some of the pals stating it was just before 9pm.
Police want to quiz the couple again over what they call the "missing half hour".

A police source said: "We believe the timetable of events that evening is crucial to the inquiry. We want to know how they could make such a mistake over the time they arrived."
Early on in the investigation the McCanns said they got to the restaurant at 8.30pm.
Based on arrival timings given by their dining companions, that would mean the tragic couple arrived first before their friends.
But police sources say statements given by those pals show the McCanns arrived just before 9pm—and that by then all of their friends were already there.
The statements claim that Russell O'Brien, Jane Tanner, Matthew and Rachel Oldfield were first to arrive at around 8.45pm.
At 8.55 David and Fiona Payne were said to have turned up with Fiona's mum, Diane Webster.
Some statements indicate that the McCanns turned up two or three minutes after the Paynes.
If these new timings are accurate police are questioning why Gerry would go back and check the children just 5 minutes later.
He is reported as saying he checked the apartment and all three children were sleeping at 9.05pm.
This was confirmed when on his way back he stopped to speak to Jeremy Wilkins, another guest at the resort he had met playing tennis earlier in the week.
At 9.10pm Jane Tanner said she crossed Gerry's path on her way to check her own children.
Around that time she says she saw a man carrying away a child she now believes was Madeleine.
She describes the man as aged 35, dark-haired. wearing beige trousers and black shoes. She said the girl, who appeared to be sleeping, was toddler age, bare-footed and wearing pink pyjamas like Madeleine's.
No one else out that night reported seeing this man.
Portuguese cops have piled on the agony for the McCanns by retracing their steps and naming them both as official suspects. They believe the couple may have been involved in the disappearance of three-year-old Madeleine. And they think one may be covering up for the other.

viv said...

Officers are probing a "three-hour window of opportunity" on the theory that during this time Madeleine was killed in the apartment and her body hidden somewhere nearby.
It starts the last time the children were seen alive by anyone but their parents and ends when Kate and Gerry were seen in public.
The last time Madeleine was seen alive was by staff at the Ocean Club creche at 6pm.
The McCanns were then alone with their children for almost three hours at the most if they did arrive at the Tapas restaurant at 9pm.A police source said: "The couple are being monitored to see how they react to every new piece of information they receive.
"The pressure has slowly been mounting on the McCanns over the last month as new information has been fed into the inquiry." Sources say the couple have been kept under surveillance following the discovery by a dog of the smell of death in their apartment on August 1.
Police now claim they have detected blood in a Renault Scenic car hired by the McCanns 24 days after Maddie's disappearance.
During questioning, GP Kate was asked why she had washed Madeleine's favourite toy "Cuddle Cat". Cops believe she has was trying to hide forensic evidence of her daughter's death.
The police claim the smell of a corpse was found on Kate's T-shirt, jeans and on Cuddle Cat.
Kate says she washed the toy on August 5—four days after police dogs picked up "the scent of death".
She insists she washed the toy simply because it was covered in dirt and sun tan lotion.
Portuguese police are relying heavily on a Cracker-style profiler who has been studying the McCanns' behaviour. The profiler has reportedly claimed that he suspects that the couple, from Rothley, Leics, could be "distracting" themselves from the horror of what they might have done by getting involved in the massive media campaign.
Doubts have also been cast over the lack of emotion and the controlled composure of the couple since their daughter disappeared.
The profiler has told cops that this matches that of a couple who are united and focused in a bid to cover up a tragedy.
But former Chief Inspector Albert Kirby, who led the hunt to trap the killers of toddler James Bulger, said: "There is very little time for the McCanns to have murdered their daughter and disposed of her body.
"And they would have had to carry her body a short distance away and concealed it without anyone spotting them. The body would have also had to remain concealed and unfound for a long time despite the police search.
"The Portuguese police must believe that one of them managed to conceal the body in a flat or a bush."


viv said...

It is very interesting how utterly damaging the News of the World were prepared to be back in Jan 2008 actually getting very near the truth and how helpful they are to the McCanns now. Something to do with a chance of leadership, something to do with British Police taking over and shutting them all up?


viv said...

Oh dear Christobel/LouiseH/A.Dubliner/A.Sensible Person/Bridget et al ad nauseum..

even when trying to keep it brief to give me less to laugh about you still put your foot in it. I have noticed you call me that before (on Psychos bog), but thanks for showing respect:-)))Oh and thanks for popping in again earlier too xx
Not the strongest member of the Team, are you!

Anonymous said... 67

anon @256
I think your correct about her vivness .

15/04/2010 22:48

viv said...

This is what I wrote about you Christabel in December 2007, I have not changed my mind. I was influenced by all your "research" about "paedophiles" and Robert MuRAT as you were so fond of calling him. I also recall you claiming that I "fancied" Gerry and he had "knocked me back". Quite a repulsive thought as is the workings of your mind.

Christabel: This woman?? displays again she has a very sick and perverted mind

viv said...

It was originally reported that Jane Tanner saw this so called abductor carrying a child in a blanket, then all reference to that was removed.

A little backtracking presumably given the McCanns handed the PJ Madeleine's pink blanket for the dogs to sniff, so she clearly did not get abducted in it.

Then we get the Smith sighting and the error relating to the child being carried in a blanket is repeated yet again. What a cockup!

Hardly surprising that the serious police totally dismissed Mr Martin Smith and his 33 year old son and 12 year old daughter who simply signed statements saying dad is right that is what we saw! Of course what Mr Smith saw varies just as much as any other McCanned type witness does.

viv said...

Now we have Rosiepops and Textusa etc telling us this Smith sighting is deadly serious, it is real, my cue to accept what the police say, oh no it is isn't. The serious police know Maddie had long since gone from that apartment and at a time when both her parents were right there. They did not even get to the TAPAS until 9 they were so "busy" with their equally abusive friends, David and Fiona Payne. Hence they need to keep on telling us but this Smith and TAnner sightings, please, you have just got to believe us. Well no sensible person would they would just look at the email exchange between Ricardo Paiva and DC Marshall in October 2007 and see that they were quite obviously concentrating on the time Maddie really disappeared, and who was really involved David Payne, the heading of the email, his lying wife Fiona and of course Kate and Gerry McCann. The rest of the group were nowhere near so heavily involved IMO and it is about time they started telling the truth before they find themselves under arrest because perverting the course of justice in such a serious case will get them lots of prison time. IMO the two who went back to Portugal Jane Tanner and Mat Oldfield are very much lesser players and were looking to cover their backs. They know they are not lying by continuing to insist Madeleine was abducted, because she was, but the time and those responsible for that, !

viv said...

This is actually from Rosiepops blog but of course Gerry himself is wanting to say the Smith sighting is genuine, he would, he arranged it!

07.07.08. 24Horas - Translation.

Gonçalo Amaral placed a strong bet on this witness

Text: Carlos Tomas
July 07, 2008

When he was discharged, the former investigator of the Maddie Case was preparing to hear an Irishman, who was considered to be a very relevant witness. But the present investigators don't give him credibility

The statements from the Irish citizen who is considered to be a key witness in the Maddie case by Gonçalo Amaral, the man who lead the entire investigation, were not considered to be relevant by the investigators from the Polícia Judiciária who presently hold the process.

During the two depositions, both informal, the Irishman who is only known as "Smith" said that he saw the father of Madeleine McCann, Gerry, leaving the apartment in Praia da Luz, Lagos, Algarve, carrying a child on the day that the little girl disappeared. This, during the period of time between 6 and 10 p.m., precisely when Maddie disappeared.

"He was one of the witnesses that should be questioned within the rogatory letter that was sent to England. But, due to the fact that he is an Irish citizen, the authorities in Leicester, England, failed to contact him. The diligence was not deemed relevant, given the fact that he was informally heard at the beginning of the process and his depositions were highly contradictory", a senior officer who is connected to the investigations revealed to 24horas.

The same source specified: "First he said that he saw Maddie's father leaving the apartment carrying a child. But during a second hearing he said he was not certain that it was Gerry who carried the child. He even said he could not assert whether said person was actually carrying a human being. This type of witness is not admissible in court and they do not deserve credibility".

It is now up to prosecutor Magalhães e Meneses, who is analysing the process, to decide whether it is necessary to carry out further diligences, namely whether the hearing of the Irish citizen is necessary or not to reach a decision about the case, which apparently is to be archived concerning the suspicions of concealment of a cadaver and possible homicide that are pending on the McCanns.


Below is the report on the witness Mr. Smith, this can be found on page 34 of 57 from the official Police files. I couldnt copy and paste as the file is in PDF and that is too techincal for this dinosaur!

Further on the issue, the testimony of Martin Smith was considered pages 1606 and following, reporting the sighting of an individual, carrying a child in one of the streets that leads to the beach. It was said that the child could be Madeleine McCann, although it was never peremptorily stated. Sometime later, the witness alleged, that by its stance, the individual that carried the child could be Gerald McCann which was concluded when he see him descending the stairs from an aeroplane pages 2871, 3991 and following and 4135 and following. It was established that at the time this was mentioned, Gerald McCann was sitting at the table in the Tapas Restaurant.

viv said...

Here is another old one from you A.Dubliner/Christobel/LouiseH/Bridget et al ad nauseum, see how concerned you were to deny that Mrs Fenn could have heard Madeleine crying for such a long time, ON HER OWN (sorry to shout, picked that up from you)

27.12.07, 7:39pm
Could you tell me how Mrs Fenn was apparently certain it was Madeleine crying and if anyone was, how could she be sure it was Madeleine and be able to distinguish between Madeleine's, Sean's and Amelie's cry.
• Posted by: Christabel • Report Comment

viv said...

and it gets even more siniser when we have a look at the synchronized post by Rosie, seeking to completely deny Mrs Fenn's evidence and talking about these "men who were hanging around that apartment".

27.12.07, 7:27pm
I know what I read, she categorically states she did not hear Madeleine crying on that night or any other night.She also says she caught an intruder in her flat shortly before Madeleine was abducted.Her daughter also states that she saw a strange man lurking around on a couple of occasions outside the McCann's apartment and this would *seemingly* fit in with the *alleged* gr-any video that the PJ has *allegedly* sent off to the FBI for enhancements, which is supposed to show unusual male activity around that apartment.Not to mention that this would also fit in with the men seen by the nannies seen hanging around this apartment and this like all the above has been reported to the Portuguese police as well as to the manager of the MW complex.All these men seen hanging around this apartment have allegedly been officially reported, so unlike such a lot of information in this case can easily be verified,
• Posted by: Rosiepops • Report Comment

viv said...

Who were these men then Rosiepops, David Payne, Gerry McCann or Russell O'Brien, perhaps?

Don't talk rubbish said...

You are a very stupid and irresponsible woman. I'm afraid I don't believe for a second your stories about being legally qualified. My guess is that you are an unqualified legal executive at best. Your ignorance of the law would shame a lay person, let alone someone claiming to work or have worked in the field.

I have no time for the McCanns whatsoever. I hold them entirely responsible for what happened to their daughter. Sadly, when there are people like you around, with your spiteful and ridiculous accusations levelled at other posters, and your totally crazy theories, it all serves to harm the reputation of those of us seeking the truth of what happened to the child. You have a staggeringly over-inflated sense of your own importance, when in fact you are regarded by most bloggers and posters - on both sides of the fence - as a complete irrelevance who will probably end up being sued by one or other of the people you have libelled. You really ought to remember that you have absolutely no right to make the comments you are making about witnesses in this case. Your remarks are ill-informed, ignorant and completely irresponsible. You should also be aware that google can remove your access to your account if they receive complaints against you, as unfortunately for them, they could also be prosecuted for the libellous comments you make.

Bloggers like you are despicable. You are not interested in the truth, you are not interested in a proper resolution to this case with those who are guilty facing the consequences of their actions. All you are interested in is the sound of your own cybervoice. You don't care how many innocent people you hurt, provided you get the chance to expound your utterly ridiculous theories, not one of which is actually supported by any evidence whatsoever.

I really wish you would get a grip. People like you are the reason that there is support out there for the McCanns. You bring nothing to the debate and you cause far more harm than good. Do all of us who actually want to see the McCanns held to account a favour would you ?
Put your brain in gear before your mouth is in motion.

Of course, you won't publish this comment, but maybe if you at least read it some of it will filter into your brain. I'm not hopeful, frankly.

Di said...

It is obvious Viv has to reply to this comment but I thought I would just say.

I don't know what Viv's qualifications are regarding the law but she always answers everyones questions without hesitation.

Is Viv here to get justice for Madeleine, yes I believe she is. Does Viv get frustrated by people fabricating the evidence to suit themsleves, yes she does and so do I.

You say Viv is continually having a go at other posters. I don't go to Rosie's site but I believe THEY continually pick on Viv and other posters.

WHY, would they need to pick on Viv if she is not worth it and does not know what she is talking about. Only one answer, Viv obviously does know what she is talking about and many pros are very worried.

S.B. said...


Just picked up your comments herein and much appreciate the invitation to climb on-board - BUT..... In another era I was clearly unwelcome on your site. Under an assumed name I challenged your opinion about a certain individual (to remain nameless). This was initially in complete innocence but once you unjustifiably attacked me I went into over-drive in order to combat your reaction. However, I hope that incident can be forgotten as the person concerned is really not worth the acrimony.

Assuming I am still welcome here, I have been experiencing grave problems with my computer over the last month so if I appear a bit quiet it is because sometimes I can't bleeping-well log onto anything - it's driving me crazy, I feel cut-off from the world!

Another thing driving me crazy is the reaction one gets from so many for simply expressing ones opinion. Frequently I ask for answers to issues that I find incomprehensible and yet I am bombarded with counter productive replies that do not clarify anything. I am totally exasperated by the attitude of some; they lack common sense and reasonable process of thought which you do not need a university degree to achieve!

Until the next time - if you will allow.........

Di said...

Night Viv

Don't talk rubbish said...


I would suggest you read Viv's own comments on here, or the comments she makes on Joana Morais' blog. She thinks nothing of accusing posters of having multiple ID's, or of being in the pay of the McCanns. This is intelligent posters, who are the farthest thing apart from pro-McCann that you can possibly imagine, people of integrity who are subjected to spiteful abuse by Viv.
As far as fabricating evidence goes, perhaps you would ask Viv to explain her comments about the Smith family, about Robert Murat, about Robert's mother. She takes their completely innocent actions and comments and implies there is evidence these people are involved in Madeleine's disappearance ! These are innocent people who became embroiled in this case because they did the right thing. They DO NOT deserve to have their integrity questioned by Viv - she brings disgrace upon herself and this reflects upon other posters who do not, fortunately, share her extreme views but nevertheless find themselves tarred with the same brush. I would urge Viv to not make wild, unsubstantiated claims, not to libel people and not to abuse other commentators, Perhaps then people will be prepared to listen to her on the rare occasions when she does make sense

viv said...

I am afraid you have asked for this "don't talk rubbish", here is a copy of your searches on this blog including how I spell your assumed name and how you spell it yourself, also the area where you are posting from and I am sure we can all see what you are so concerned about, The Smith Sighting, Paedophilia, Wardship, Kidnapping. The simple fact is I do not talk rubbish as you obviously know.

Bath, Bath and North East Somerset hit:

" JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS: Mexican Maddie type case - Found Dead in Parents Home"











" JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS: Oh Whoops I crittered again - Mr Martin Smith a "Dubliner", lol!"


" JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS: Search results for chritobel"

" JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS: Search results for Christabel"


" JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS: The McPologists "Well Why havnt they been charged yet?" WHAT AFTER ONLY 8 MONTHS"








viv said...

Di, thanks for your kind support as ever xx

SB Hello, It is very difficult to know who is posting on here, I can only go by the record of that poster and I can say that in the case of Di, Hope and Wiz they have been consistently honest and decent posters who are wanting to look for the truth.

I can also say that there have been posters on here who simply wanted to tell us Maddie died in the room whilst being left alone, the result of a little accident and that Goncalo is the best thing since sliced bread. I accepted those people as my friends and trusted them, until I saw the Portuguese file of papers. When this blog became a place for the truth, rather than the Goncalo spin, they all decided to take off to another place, that has always been fine by me. I am just sorry that I was misled by them, but it is all on the record for this blog and I have not sought to change that or delete that record. I have only deleted the most foul abuse from the likes of Christabel etc.

If you are the same person who has been writing so eloquently on Jo Morais blog I would be delighted to have your views on here, where we certainly are looking for the truth. Pursuing the course of justice can mean exposing the spin of so many insincere people who have attached themselves to this case and sought to profit out of a very sad and abused, missing little girl. To that end they have no problem writing gory death theories, year in year out, rather than trying to look for the truth.

Welcome on board and I think you will find the small number of us that are left are very genuine.

Viv xx

viv said...

I see blogger Rosiepops has been at it again on Jo Morais's blog (when they can manage to leave me alone for 5 minutes).

Intelligent people are laughing at you Rosie, Gerry is not going to force the Portuguese to start looking for his fantasy abductors again by a re-opening of the case on his terms and reasonable people do not believe what they read in the News of the World either!

You can slate Leicester Police and CEOP just as much as you like but they are not going to leave Gerry McCann and his gang alone.

viv said...

16/04/2010 06:03
Anonymous said... 71

Anon 55

This so called 'review' is what Gerry McCann has been trying to set in motion to distract from a 'reopening' of the case, which their lawyer slipped out as being needed, during the trial.

She obviously misspoke, because a 'reopening' of the case is the last thing the McCanns want or they could have requested it.

Gerry McCann was then cornered into saying they also would not mind a reopening, but he did not look pleased.

Since then the McCanns have gone to great lengths to try and get their so called 'review', until now it looks like they are getting their own way.

The have even got their friend Gamble to say the Leicester Police who worked on the case are not to be involved in the 'review' because they are not up to scratch. More likely because those who worked on the case came to the conclusion that Madeleine is dead, just like the PJ investigators did and they wont change their minds.

There must be no 'reopening' of the case under any circumstances as far as the McCanns are concerned, and do you honestly think a 'review' will be anything more than something they can be pulling the strings of at the back with all these so called 'sightings' of Madeleine.

Their good friend Gamble, who is supporting them in this 'review', even 'prefers to completely ignore the findings of the dogs and declare the McCanns innocent before any kind of 'review' even begins.

So that can only mean the McCanns will not be included for consideration as suspects in any 'review' Gamble can persuade the Home Secretary to have undertaken. Gamble is saying that those carrying out this 'review' must look anywhere but not at the McCanns.

This 'review' of theirs is nothing but a great big PR exercise on behalf of the McCanns. Simply a continuation of the brainwashing of the public which has been going on for three years now.

For any truth to emerge it is a 'REOPENING' of the case in Portugal that is needed, but as an exercise in distraction from that, this so called 'review' will do the job fine.

Please Portugal get this case reopened. Don't let the McCanns stomp all over the fine work you have already done.

It would be interesting to get Dr Amaral's take on this. I do hope we can get to hear from him again soon regarding this desparate effort by the McCanns to distract from a reopening of the case.

viv said...

The McCanns "good friend Gamble", you do make me laugh!

viv said...

Hello again, Dont talk rubbish, I see you are surfing with safari and running on Apple. Do you think that seeking to discredit me is detracting from interest in this blog or actually increasing it, hope you enjoy the snapshot, no comment this time? :

[United Kingdom]
Bath, Bath and North East Somerset arrived on "JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS".
02:06:02 -- 20 minutes ago
Gibraltar arrived from google.com on "JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS" by searching for viv's website on Maddie McCann.
01:48:42 -- 37 minutes ago
[United Kingdom]
01:24:30 -- 1 hour 2 mins ago
[United Kingdom]
London, London, City of arrived on "JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS".
00:33:59 -- 1 hour 52 mins ago
[United Kingdom]
Hampton, Greater London left via dailymail.co.uk from "JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS"
00:07:51 -- 2 hours 18 mins ago
[United Kingdom]
Hampton, Greater London arrived from joana-morais.blogspot.com on "JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS".
00:07:43 -- 2 hours 18 mins ago
[United Kingdom]
Addlestone, Surrey arrived from joana-morais.blogspot.com on "JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS".
00:03:45 -- 2 hours 22 mins ago
[United Kingdom]
London, London, City of arrived on "JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS".
23:58:35 -- 2 hours 28 mins ago
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland arrived from blogsearch.google.nl on "JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS: BRITISH POLICE FOCUS ON GERRY, HENCE THE SPIN!" by searching for madeleine mccann.
23:50:40 -- 2 hours 36 mins ago

viv said...

Speaking of those who prefer Apple, I am sure UK officers did get around to having a good old look at Gerry's. Mr Menezes, quite menacing really isn't he, bless him. Now what was it he said recently, The McCanns could have faced charges for kidnapping and trafficking Madeleine. Will you be threatening him as well!

I tell you what, why don't you go and stick your threats where the sun does not shine and start telling the truth for a change? :

viv said...

Police seek McCanns' laptop to read emails

By Caroline Gammell in Praia da Luz
Published: 7:41PM BST 12 Sep 2007
1 of 2 Images
Kate McCann and her two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie
Kate McCann takes her two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie, to a local park
A news headline is seen near the home of the parents of missing Madeleine McCann in Rothley
Paper shows support for McCanns in their home town

Portuguese prosecutors have applied for Gerry McCann’s laptop and his wife’s personal diary to be handed over to the authorities investigating their daughter’s disappearance, sources have revealed.

* Boris Johnson: The McCann saga tells us about ourselves
* McCanns will not use fund for defence
* Timeline: How the story unfolded

Detectives in the Algarve are particularly keen to track emails sent by Mr McCann, a cardiologist, from the computer he used while in Portugal to keep an almost daily blog on the campaign to find Madeleine.

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Police seek McCanns' laptop to read emails

An urgent application for access to the personal artefacts was made by public prosecutor Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses to a judge in Portimao yesterday.

Police sources said criminal instructing judge Pedro Miguel dos Anjos Frias is drawing up papers approving the request which are expected to be passed to Leicestershire police tommorrow.

Mr McCann took his laptop back to the UK at the weekend and it is understood it will be analysed by officers in the UK.

“The police want Gerry’s laptop,” a Portuguese source said.

“They want to know what kind of emails Gerry exchanged with certain people.

“It is more about Gerry than Kate. They want the computer and a lot of other things, letters and some personal objects.

“They also want Kate’s diary but the computer is the main thing.”

During his travels around Europe, north Africa and the US, Mr McCann was regularly seen using his white apple mac.

His last entry on the Find Madeleine site was made on September 10, where he described being named as suspects in his daughter’s disappearance as “unbelievably stressful and emotionally draining”.

The website has received well over 100 million hits since she disappeared in Praia da Luz on May 3.

Portuguese police are keen to use the diary to look into the character of Mrs McCann, to see if her innermost thoughts might reveal if an apparently devoted mother might have killed her daughter.

Mrs McCann kept a diary throughout her time in Portugal, writing it as the couple travelled round Europe on private jets and commercial aircraft.

The part-time GP’s large sprawling handwriting covered line after line and page after page in her ringbound notepad.

It was not entirely clear where Mrs McCann’s diary actually was, with reports of it both in the UK and Portugal.

The couple have been advised by their lawyers that any case against them will be seriously weakened by the fact that there is no body.

A family friend said: “The legitimate question to ask Portuguese police is: ‘Where is the body?’ Where’s the evidence that Madeleine is dead? We have got no idea.”

viv said...

Speculation that Madeleine’s favourite toy Cuddle Cat, which has never left Mrs McCann’s side, would also be the subject of the application by the Portuguese authorities, sparked anger from relatives.

Mr McCann’s sister Philomena said removing the precious toy would be a “disgrace” and added: “It would be extremely distressing for Kate because she has seen it as a symbol of her daughter since she went missing.”

The official request for personal items came as the McCanns were seen emerging from their house in Rothley, Leicestershire, for the first time since arriving home.

They took two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie to the local park, but the strain of being under such scrutiny has finally started to show.

Friends told how Mr McCann arrived back in the UK upbeat and bullish but was gradually losing confidence as the pressure upon the couple continued.

* Madeleine judge is a tough character
* Ben Affleck may halt film over Madeleine

It is understood that the public prosecutor has made a series of other applications in relation to the case which could lead to new searches, tighter bail conditions for the McCanns or even see them being recalled to Portugal for further interviews.

Mr Frias, who could take up to a week to digest the lengthy file has 10 days in which to approve or refuse these requests.

The dossier relies heavily on forensic results which police claim indicate Madeleine’s DNA was found in the McCann’s hire car 25 days after she went missing.

Hair and bodily fluids belonging to the four-year-old were allegedly found in the boot of the car, in the spare wheel well in the silver Renault Scenic.

A family friend said the McCanns were considering commissioning independent forensic tests on the car and are keeping in it a safe place.

Portuguese police are working on the theory that Mrs McCann may have accidentally killed her daughter while her husband helped cover it up.

The couple are currently formal suspects, or arguidos, and although there are no bail conditions, Portugal’s attorney general Fernando Jose Pinto Monteiro indicated their status might change.

Mr Monteiro, who voiced his “total trust” in the Portuguese police, said the case was passed on to a judge to allow possible further police activity to take place.

He has announced the appointment of a second public prosecutor, Luis Bilro Verao, who will oversee the work of Mr Meneses.

As the case passed through the legal hoops, the police were on standby to carry out further searches in Praia da Luz.

Attention has turned towards the Nossa Senhora da Luz church where there was considerable building work around the time Madeleine disappeared.

Anglican vicar for the Algarve, Father Haynes Hubbard said he had not heard of any searches of the church, but welcomed police inside.

“I hope they search it, I hope they search it very well, and maybe they can find something,” he said.

Father Hubbard said he hoped detectives would continue looking for Madeleine because “there’s a little girl out there who just wants to come home”.

It also emerged that it was possible that several friends of the McCanns who were with them the night Madeleine disappeared would be questioned again over the next few days and weeks.

Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias named Russell O’Brien and Jane Tanner as one of the couples the police may want to quiz for a second time.

Jane, a 36-year-old mother-of-two from Exeter, is the woman who claims to have seen a man walking away from the McCanns’ holiday apartment with a child wrapped in a blanket the night Madeleine went missing.

Dr Russell O’Brien, 36, who works in the Peninsula Medical School at the University of Plymouth’s Exeter campus, last month defended himself against claims in the Portuguese press that he was about to be named as a suspect.

He said the allegations were “completely untrue and extremely hurtful”.

viv said...

“The police want Gerry’s laptop,” a Portuguese source said.

“They want to know what kind of emails Gerry exchanged with certain people.

“It is more about Gerry than Kate. They want the computer and a lot of other things, letters and some personal objects.

viv said...

4 Comments - Show Original Post Collapse comments

Blogger Rosiepops said...

Well no Leicestershire police then Vile. lol

11 April 2010 18:00

erm Rosie dear it is not that simple to just magic the police away, I am afraid, but thank you so much for addressing your first post to me, even if you did not get my name quite right xx

viv said...

Good post on J Morais: (there really are intelligent people around)

16/04/2010 21:40
JillyCL said... 9

I agree with poster #1. I don't believe nine adults (including six doctors and a grandmother) agreed to leave eight children under 4 years old alone in four strange dark apartments, out of sight or earshot. I don't believe they did it for even one night, let alone five!

One adult was sick or a child sick with an adult in attendace, every night, apart from the day they arrived, when they took the children to dinner with them.

I believe this was the reason why they were fully lawyered-up from the start - the risk of being charged with neglect was covered. IMO, the 'neglect issue' was a trade-off for something far worse; a necessary smolescreen for what really happened to Maddie.

No neglect = No abduction.

viv said...

and that is why my abusive little friend gets so hyped up about Mrs Justice Hogg making Madeleine a Ward of Court and tries to insist it was the McCanns. Mrs Justice Hogg knew what had really been happening to Madeleine and knew that there was no way on earth she should ever be returned to Kate and Gerry McCann.

That is also why my abusive little friend gets so upset about this faked Smith sighting, no neglect, no abduction. No Mr Smith, no abduction. Madeleine DID NOT go from that apartment whilst she was supposedly being neglected, she went whilst the parents were right there and that is what they are so desperate to cover up. So desperate in fact that Gerry even got Martin Smith to say it might have been him carrying Madeleine, anything, so long as people do not realise the truth. BUT WE DO!

viv said...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... sicko.html

Just what depths will the McCanns and their foul supporters plum in order to drum up a bit of sympathy in that sickening tory red top The Sun?

They even name Hewlett as "prime suspect", strange the police never said that, they said it was her parents and Robert Murat. I know which I choose to believe!

In terms of editorial standards, The Sun and the News of the World really do srape the bottom of the barrel! In fact they have no standards..

viv said...

Judging by what I am seeing of the McCanns warp the public mind campaign being conducted by the Sun/News of the World and some sick bloggers I feel immensely refreshed, they must be flipping desperate!



viv said...


I think I know who you are now and the person you refer to who is not worth the acrimony, I entirely agree and hope we can put that phase behind us.

If you are that person, I am very sorry to have upset you by taking what was plainly not the right side.

Hundreds of loopy posts, or a few more sensible ones?

I know which I would prefer.

Please come back to us and let us put that phase behind us.

Seeking the truth and justice for Madeleine is a worthwhile business.

Viv xxx

Wizard said...


I’ve been pondering, yet again, over Jane Tanner’s sighting and her changing statements on what she saw. Could it be pivotal in this saga?

Firstly, Wilkins suggests that GM had just come out of his apartment after checking the children. He does not know this for certain it’s what he thinks happened by what GM says. When the conversation is over Wilkins walks up the road and GM says he walks down to the tapis bar. He could just have easily walked back into the apartment.

Jane Tanner’s statement. Clearly she did not walk pass Wilkins or GM when she says she did as she would have been seen. Was she just setting a time for her sighting when an independent witness was present? If so why? My initial thoughts were to give an alibi for her partner who was away from the table for a considerable amount of time during a relevant period.

Consider another possibility - Gerry does not return directly to the Tapis Bar but returns to the apartment. He was just checking if the coast was clear when spotted by Wilkins. The scent of a corpse was found by the dogs in the flower bed outside the apartment perhaps he rested the body there whilst he checked. Unexpectedly seeing Wilkins lost him crucial time and now there’s a possibility one of the T9 will be doing a check on their children and he could bump into them if he leaves via the side entrance. He changes his plan picks up the body goes back through the flat and leaves via the front door which leads into the car park. (A more risky exit as it is overlooked)

As GM exists via the road at the back of the apartment JT returns and sees a man, in the distance, carrying something. She thinks nothing of it at the time and in the dim lighting and distance she does not recognise who it is plus she is not paying attention in those important fleeting moments and why should she at this point. She cannot say what the man is wearing these details are fabricated later so as not to implicate GM or her partner, she also goes one step further by suggesting this sighting was made when GM was talking to Wilkins thereby distracting attention away from herself, GM and O’Brien leaving Wilkins to confirm the time. At this point she gambles on GM verifying what she says. However, because of an independent witness being present he chose not to collaborate the story leaving her up the creek without a paddle. She forlornly, as we know, sticks to her account embroidering details every time she retells it - after all it’s important for her and her partner to distance themselves from any possible involvement. They are the two individuals who were missing from the restaurant the most during a crucial period and must have been deeply concerned over this.

Hmm….. I just wonder. Nearly three years after the fact JT’s statement is still a mystery who exactly is she covering for and why? I do not believe she is a fantasist there is a method in her madness!

S.B. said...

Thanks for the kind welcome!

Although I do visit other sites relating to this case I do not contribute to any other than Joanna Morais - quite frankly I find the inter-blog war anything but constructive. I think Madeleine Mccann has either been forgotten or has become the object of profiteering and warmongering. Whatever their purpose it is gratifying to know that at least some decent people are still concerned about seeking justice, albeit the minority!

As progress in the case has not been officially publicized we appear to be stagnating and therefore diverting our attentions to anything and everything relative to the past investigation. For this reason my mind is temporarily bogged-down with trying to remember facts and details so I find it impossible to join any particular discussion point at this juncture. However when the fog clears I hope to be a regular!


Di said...



I know what you mean about the mind being bogged down.

I was looking back earlier today regarding the statements of K & G and Clarence.

These again rang bells for me.

Clarence " If she is dead it is not by their hands."

K & G "I know that what happened is not due to us leaving the children asleep."

K "I was there I know what happened."

I think all these statements need to be looked at further.

Di said...

Hi Wizard

I know Jane has changed her story many times but do you know what, I felt very sorry for her when she was in PDL with Gerry etc., doing their supposed reconstruction. Jane being told she was not where she said she was on the side of the road and she cried!! That said it all for me. I really believe Jane is being manipulated.

Off to watch tv.

hope4truth said...

Hello All

Di I agree I feel very sorry for JT I thought when she was in PDL with the reconsturction she was treated like a fool and it would not surprise me if one day we hear her name in the frame for helping take Maddie she is the perfect patsy for them and if there is a secret holding them together they can twist it to say she is the liar and whtever it is never happend???

Arrived home from Florida last night should have been back on Thursday morning but our flight from Washington was delayed 2 hours on the runway because of volcanic ash. Just comming in to Heathrow when the map of the flight suddenly changed to show Paris and the Captain then announced Heathrow had shut and we were off to CDG in Paris....

Sat around for hours before being taken to a Disney Hotel (which was a bit strange as we had just left Disneyland) and were awoken at 22.30 to tell us to get up to be in reception at 2am to get on a coach to Cherbourg after many hours we finaly got back to Heathrow and picked up our ride home....

Must say after watching the news we were so lucky to get home when we die although a part of me wishes we were stuck in Washington it is one place I would never choose to go to but would have loved a couple of days to have a look round....

All those poor people waiting to get home would hate me more than the pros do for saying that LOL xxxx

viv said...

Hiya all, and SB, lovely to have you on board.

I think the only way in which we can see that progress is being made is by the increasingly desperate spin coming from the McCanns and their followers, the constant attacks on CEOP and Leics Police. Gerry's concerted campaign to get the case re-opened in Portugal but on his terms of course, attacking Ricardo Paiva, who I have certainly been impressed with as an excellent police officer. I do think that email he received from DC Marshall in October 2007 provides us with many of the answers to this case, both as to the timing when this happened and the two other key players that were involved, the Paynes.

viv said...



viv said...

Leics Police included Amanda Coxon, the McCanns child minder/cleaner in the rogs, do doubt because she could provide intimate information about their relationship with Madeleine. It is clear from reading the extract of it below they were asking some very pertinent questions, judging by the answers that she gives. She is clearly not wanting to say anything bad about them, but her answers clearly demonstrate the police have a number of very serious concerns including Madeleine being drugged and bleeding. I have studied the forensic reports very carefully so many times both the Portuguese and the British. To me there only seems to be one speck of blood that was likely Madeleine's on the tile behind the sofa, it would seem the McCanns give the reason for this as a nosebleed and so Amanda is being asked about this.

Of course finding one small speck of blood that may well have been Madeleine's does not mean that she actually died in the there.

I think Di, does flag up some very pertinent questions again, we were there we know what happened, if she is dead it is not by their hand. What is Mitchell's real role and purpose? I just get more convinced that I am right and Madeleine was not dead when she was removed from that apartment and Mitchell knows that too.

I take as my starting point the obvious evidence of problems with Madeleine and the clear evidence this was a planned disappearance and they did not want her to be found. Then I ask myself could they have planned to murder her and would the friends take part in such a plot to murder her, my answer to that just has to be no. But if she was being abused and they planned to get rid of her for that reason to prevent it from coming to light, would they take part in a plot to remove her and cover up that abuse, my answer to that just has to be yes.

viv said...

I have no knowledge of any conflict between Kate and Gerry, or between them and Madeleine. I do not know of any problem or conflict between Madeleine and any other person or child.

I had a good relationship with Madeleine, I would describe her as full of fun, intelligent for her age and very active. She is a very happy girl and the last time I saw her, she was already capable of maintaining a conversation. She clearly understood the instructions given to her and was a good listener.

I would say that Madeleine is a very healthy girl and I never noticed any changes in behaviour. I would not describe her as a hyperactive child. I do not know of any problem related to sleeping, but I was rarely present when she went to bed.

Kate and Gerry never mentioned having any type of problem with Madeleine.
She was well behaved, never caused her parents any problems and apparently always understood what she was told. The parents never looked tired of taking care of Madeleine.

I have no knowledge about whether Madeleine was subject to taking medicine and I never saw anyone giving her any medication. Gerry and Kate never referred to any medication that Madeleine was taking.

As I said before, Madeleine was a very well behaved and lively child.

With relation to the question about haemorrhages, I was never present at any episode when Madeleine bled, other than a normal nose bleed when she inserted her finger into her nose and bled.

Nothing different from any other child having a nose bleed.

viv said...

Di, re Jane Tanner, there is something sad about her I agree. I certainly did feel for her in PDL when she just kept on crying, she does seem to firmly believe Madeleine was abducted.

It seems to me that the McCanns and the Paynes were very late going out that night, around 9 pm whereas we can see the table was habitually booked for 8.30, the McCanns are wanting to stress nothing happened out of the routine that night but it did. They and the Paynes were very late going out, we are told this was habitual for the Paynes but somehow I just do not believe that. I also think it was habitual for Gerry and Russ for example to be out very early, there is a report I think from the Wed night of them being in the TAPAS by 8.15.

The other major thing out of the ordinary that night is Kate insisting the children were tired an at 6 pm taking them straight in and apparently getting them ready for bed. Then we have a catalogue of confused lies about what they were all supposedly doing. Payne admitting he sort of split off from Oldfield and O'Brien because he had to go talk to Gerry, well why did he? If he was going back to play tennis why did he not just go straight back to his room and get his tennis things?

Russell lies very vididly for Gerry about production of those old 6 x 4 pictures at his rogatory, trying to insist the nanny produced them and gets hopelessly confused/angry in the process. I am sure he was not convincing the police and a read of the file leaves us in no doubt the Portuguese Police simply do not believe Amy and were conducting all sorts of tests on those pictures to prove they were old and printed in UK. I think Brit cops will have gone forward with that process.

So why would he wish to cover for Gerry like that? I remain terribly suspicious of him and his possible involvement in the abuse of Madeleine. Tanner is forced to keep on telling different lies to cover for all of them IMO.

But to me there are all so wicked, particularly the women, because they could have saved little Madeleine IMO, or they know exactly where she is. Their reputation and get out of jail card is more important to them, that is for sure.

I still believe Brit cops are trying to find little Maddie and do hope she may still be alive. I find the possibility of Maddie being held somewhere with the assistance of people like Brian Kennedy perfectly possible. Strange we were even treated to how Maddie may look if held in a very hot Arab country.

Di, I do not think that anything the McCanns do is not done for a conniving reason. That set up so called telephone call between Jane TAnner and Kate on the Channel 4 documentary, did it really happen or was it the McCanns wishing to demonstrate all is well between Kate and Jane. I do not think all is well and the police will keep plugging away. Tanner seems very distressed to me by her involvement in all of this and is a weak link.

viv said...

Di, I think you are always so spot on:

K & G "I know that what happened is not due to us leaving the children asleep."

K "I was there I know what happened."

This is Kate, actually telling the truth and directly contradicts what they or should I say Gerry is trying to portray. He is obviously saying it IS due to the children being left alone, an abductor came in and took Maddie.

Kate was there in the early evening when Maddie was got rid of and too right she knows. If she is praying for Maddie's kidnappers I hope she is including herself in those prayers and not trying to kid herself it was just the men. You went along with it Kate, you did not protect Maddie, did you Kate? Do you think she is being protected now? Your face would suggest perhaps not, or is that agonised face due to fear of what you face?

viv said...

Wiz, I think it is very possible Jane saw someone like the Carpenters carrying their child back and that is why the description originally included a child covered in a blanket as clearly that is what any normal parent would do on what was actually a cool night, contrary to what Gerry tries to tell us (Maddie did not need to be actually put in bed) - she never got that far that night!

If she saw someone around 9.20 as she says that is time enough for a couple to have gone and eaten their meal and then picked their child up to go back to the apt. It was an odd thing in PDL separating the childrens eating from the adults and I think that is how a normal parent would have gotten around the problem, put their child in the creche asleep whilst they went and ate and then picked that child back up again.

I think it is very likely Jane did mention to Fiona this sighting and Jane was then worked upon by Russell, David, Gerry, Fiona to get her story right, it became Maddie's abductor. When this was not being taken seriously Gerry comes up with another one, Martin Smith!

In exasperation recently when asked to state what these credible sightings are he cynically stated well there are the Tanner and the Smith sightings, yes we know Gerry..both created by you. He was clearly accepting all else was rubbish and even smirked when he mentioned these two, he knows he is losing it!

hope4truth said...

Hi Viv

Had a fantastic time on holiday the villa was huge and really thinking about maybe buying one in the future to use for holidays and maybe rent out they are so cheap and everyone there is so friendly....

Did see some tv and they dont like people who lie about children being abducted.. Watched a documentry about a missing child (a recent case I am hopeless with names) her Mother had killed her but to begin with it was all about abduction....

The police saw through her and the American public hate her (they are very judgemental) I know she killed her child and lied about it which there is no excuse for but something must be wrong with the woman to have done such a thing.....

The news was full of unfit parent one guy picked his 4 and 6 year old sons up and left them in a car for 2 days while he went on a bender he is now in jail awaiting child cruelty and abandoment charges...

I think had the McCanns been in the USA instead of PDL they would still be sitting in a jail cell now for neglect and would have the nation against them for allowing their child to be taken....

Strange place for Blood to be behind a sofa then again I have really bad nosebleeds and god help anyone if I sneeze at the same time unexpectadly my house looks like it is out of the Texas chain saw masacre....

I do think they are panicked I honestly dont know anyone who belives them anymore they find all their antics unreal and false...

How can Gerry say anything other than he is delighted the enquiry is being opened again but all the joy again shows them for what they are they had every chance for this to be taken up by any country they wanted such was the sympathy and outpouring but they believed they had the PJ fooled and went along with the investigation until they realised they had not fooled them then they slated them....

Who would wait 3 years without their child and not think to ask the British Police to investigate???

Well the McCanns have not asked it was taken out of their hands and for the only couple ever to have decided who and who should not be in the frame for taking their child when they themselves are prime suspects... It would be like Karen Mathews running the investigation into missing Shannon poor girl would more than likely be dead by now if people did not doubt her story....

hope4truth said...


just read your post about the dogs...

I think they follow a trail on the ground (or in a car or bag)whatever is touched by the person...

Had never heard much about Cadavar dogs before this but while in Florida the TV was full of missing people and Cadavar dogs were mentioned a lot and the interviewers and news people raved about them (then they raved about everything the church easter egg hunt was made to sound so exciting I wish I had been there)....


viv said...

Hiya again Hope and glad you had a lovely time and the villa was so nice.

You say really cheap, I would be interested to know and what sort of profits can be made on it. I have never been to the States but must confess I do fancy Florida as a poss future destination!

Bless you to get straight back into blogging with us!

It is interesting you say how judgmental the American population are because that would be my impression also, in relation to child neglect, abuse, faked abductions, homicide probably even worse than UK. That is one thing I have always found odd about Kate and Gerry seeking to utilise the States so much for support and there have clearly been American bloggers very proactively and aggressively supporting them. So what sort of people are these particular Americans, I wonder!

It is a strange place for blood to be behind a sofa, it seems pretty clear Madeleine's blood, although only the one sample they found, not any of the others. It also seems odd there is male blood splashed up the wall, but I suppose when you think of the number of people who have been in that apt over the years and the fact that Eddie and Keela would find any old blood and how common household bleeding accidents are it is probably not so odd. Also the PJ seem to think the sofa may have been moved/children do play hide behind the sofa etc. It is a far stretch of the imagination to say this is where Maddie died!

Too right they are panicked Hope, this is why I cannot understand all these people saying they are supposedly being protected and getting away with it. Very much a McCann agenda to suggest such a thing IMO. Their faces and temperament following the recent ill advised action against Goncalo really does say it all, surely!

I agree with you, there is great impetus in UK on solving this case once and for all and Gerry is just trying to pretend he is pleased! Given he is putting out so much spin, I wonder if we are actually going to hear some more from official sources? But of course they would take care not to suggest they suspect the McCanns.

Brilliant point! How come Mr Gerry has NEVER told us over the last three years about how he is begging British Police to just look for his daughter! Why does he just keep telling us only his "detectives" are? That makes him look guilty as hell!

If ever there was a couple who stand on their legal rights and know how to push buttons it is these two and yet we never once heard about them ordering British cops to get on and find her. That is because they know perfectly well that is exactly what British cops are doing, but they do not wish to talk about it, but now it seems they are forced to start spinning it.

Something is afoot, that is for sure, as ever, we can but wait and see. But I have no doubt it has a great deal to do with CEOP given the unrelenting campaign that is currently going on, including on Twitter, to seriously blacken his character.

viv said...

Hiya again Hope

I think that is the unfortunate thing also the way people spin the dogs and Eddie has never given a false positive, no he has not, when he has actually done what he is trained to do, find a body or clear forensic evidence that leads to it. They just miss out the obvious fact that on this occasion he did not!

They also ignore what Grime so clearly states, cadaver dogs will pick up on the scent of blood, that is part of what they are trained to pick up. Obvious enough really many people who have been killed bled in the process.

viv said...

I continue to believe that the police approach to investigating the disappearance of Madeleine was systematic and perfectly proper.

They had Murat demonstrating an unnatural interest in the investigation and commenting too much about Kate and Gerry etc, they made him a suspect in her disappearance.

They also had clear evidence the McCanns and their friends were involved in that disappearance. They systematically worked through all of the ways in which they could have disposed of Madeleine. Homicide is a very obvious one to seriously check out. But Goncalo wanted to stop right there and charge them, in spite of a clear lack of evidence to prove that charge.

The investigation moved on to looking at the McCanns being involved in her abduction and I think very likely Murat also as a further accomplice on top of some of the TAPAS group, most notably the Paynes. That is when the GASPAR statements/prior poor relationships with Madeleine/abuse became so much a part of that very confidential investigation by Brit cops/Ricardo Paiva/Rebelo.

viv said...



They had been tucked up at 7pm. Half an hour later the McCanns had joined their friends for dinner at the tapas bar.


In tears and calling out Madeleine's name, she ran back to her friends to tell them: "They've taken her, they've taken her."

Madeleine has not been seen in the 100 days since May 3. Last night Portuguese police said they were concentrating on what they call the "missing hour" before Mrs McCann found her daughter gone. They say it is possible that she was kidnapped after her father last checked her at 9.05pm and her mother's terrible discovery.


This week the donations from the public to a Madeleine fund, financing the PR campaign and global search for the little girl from Rothley in Leicestershire, was nudging £1 million.

More than 50 million people visited the Find Madeleine website in the 48 hours after its launch.


The campaign has been organised by the McCanns, both 38. Today they believe their daughter is still alive and was abducted by a stranger. Whether the motive was paedophilia, the sale of Madeleine for adoption or even the trade of her organs, they have no idea. Nor do they speculate.

As Mr McCann wrote on his website the other day: "The Portuguese police have assured us on numerous occasions that they are looking for Madeleine and not a corpse."

Yet this week attitudes towards the McCanns underwent a seismic shift, the questions growing more aggressive by the day.

Disturbing questions are being asked about the behaviour of the McCanns and their friends.

The catalyst was the discovery this week, by British police with sniffer dogs, of specks of blood on a wall in the family's apartment.


The reluctance of Gerry and Kate McCann or their friends to speak publicly, or in any detail, about the minutiae of the evening has fuelled the controversy, ..
In another uncomfortable development the Portuguese press, including the respected newspaper Dairio de Noticias, has claimed that interviews given by the McCann group to police contain discrepancies. Their stories and the timings of their movements on the night do not tally.

Furthermore, emails and phone messages sent between the group - and intercepted by the PolÌcia Judiciaria and British detectives helping the inquiry - are reported to contain conversations that contradict earlier statements.

Twenty people - including resort workers and other holidaymakers - are believed to have entered the McCanns' apartment after the disappearance. The patio windows at the rear, and the closest point to the tapas bar, were touched by searchers.

The patio had been left open by the McCanns in case of fire and, it appears, so that they could easily check the children.

But what of Madeleine's bedroom? It was situated next to the apartment's front door which is around the corner and a further 30 yards on, next to a road into the resort and a busy carpark.

Notably the bedroom, completely out of the sight of the tapas bar, had heavy, metal window shutters. These were also contaminated in the search.


viv said...

In a further twist, locals now claim that Madeleine did not always settle well. One evening they allege she ran away into the paths between the apartments, hiding for half an hour when it was time for bed.

Until recently Dr Oldfield worked at Leicester general hospital. David Payne is a senior research fellow in cardiovascular sciences at Leicester University and his wife, Fiona, is a doctor. Another of the holidaymakers, Dr Russell O'Brien, also worked at Leicester University before moving this summer.

Recently they all went to Mark Warner's in Greece where they had devised a plan of leaving their children to sleep while they had dinner nearby.

As Mr McCann explained: "The distance is so small, it was so close it was almost like having dinner in your garden. What we were doing was rigorous with multiple people checking at regular intervals."

When asked if Madeleine might have wandered out through the unlocked patio windows towards the swimming pool, or beyond to the beach, the McCanns dismiss it out of hand.

"We're absolutely certain. We double and treble-checked and have no doubt she was taken," said Mr McCann. Yet another scenario is now emerging in the local press. It is built on the recollections of other guests and workers at the resort.

The official story from the McCanns is this. Mr McCann said he checked on his three children at 9.05pm. He noticed that a door in the apartment which had been left shut was ajar.

He thought nothing of it but it may have indicated that a kidnapper was already there. But his daughter was fast asleep so he went back to the tapas bar.

Another of the group, Jane Tanner, says she took her turn 10 minutes later. She claimed later to police that she saw a dark-haired man of about 35 carrying a child as she walked back to the bar afterwards but thought nothing of it.

Soon after her return - at 9.45pm - Dr Oldfield did his round of the bedrooms. In a first statement to police, it is unclear if he actually went inside the McCann flat.

Indeed, one scenario is that many of the checks of the children were not visible, but involved listening at doors or even from outside the apartments.

However, in a second statement Dr Oldfield insists he did look in Madeleine's bedroom, believes he saw her there, and that there was light coming in through the windows as though the heavy shutters had been opened.

Again, he thought little of it until afterwards. Then, of course, it was Mrs McCann's turn. She found Madeleine gone.

Madeleine's aunt Trish Cameron recalled that she received a call later that night from her younger brother, Mr McCann, who told her: "I went back to check the children at nine o'clock. They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut."

Mrs Cameron related that when Mrs McCann went to the two apartment a little under an hour later: "The shutters had been jemmied open. They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine."

viv said...

But what is now perturbing Portuguese police is how could she be abducted when the McCann group were checking so often? Or have reports inadvertently exaggerated how vigilant the parents really were?

A worker at the tapas bar says that only a tall man, believed to be Russell O'Brien, got up from the table during the entire evening. Of course, this witness might be wrong. A busy barman could not have eyes on the McCann party for two and a half hours.

There is another conundrum too. It concerns the sighting by Jane Tanner of the man carrying a child. He was wearing beige trousers and smart black shoes. Her report is taken seriously by police.

Yet a British holidaymaker, Jeremy Wilkins, has given a deposition that does not support her evidence. He knew Mr McCann because he played tennis with him, and was walking his eight-month-old son in the night air when the drama

He says that he met Mr McCann, who had come out of his apartment at 9.05pm, and had a word with him. Soon after that Jane Tanner would have crossed paths with Mr Wilkins and his baby.

Mr Wilkins says he saw no man carrying a child or Jane Tanner herself. "It was a very narrow path and I think it would have been almost impossible for anyone to walk by without me noticing," he said.

So today the questions remain. Was Madeleine kidnapped or killed? Or unwatched, did she simply walk out and get lost? How could there be a break in with a jemmy through metal shutters without waking the twins or alerting a passerby?

Someone, somewhere must know the answers.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti ... hildren.do

viv said...

So as the above article asks, did they kill her or did they have her kidnapped.

And more pressingly for me, did Maddie run away and hide as claimed here, for 30 minutes at bedtime.

Amid the almost certainty the McCanns did drug their children and the certainty that Kate decided that terrible night her children were going in at 6 pm, to be "prepared" for bed, just what on earth did they do with poor little Maddie and what was it that gave her what appears to be a serious sleep disorder that clearly made her very afraid?

Why does a little girl only three, who has such regular bedtimes as her father states, have deep dark circles under her eyes in that last pic of her, the tennis balls pic, that the McCanns like to just gloss over and pretend does not really exist? I even noted in on one of their promotional videos, certain photos come up for several seconds, tennis ball one, quick blink and it is gone again. Like Kate's colour co-ordinated flowers on Maddie's birthday, every little detail of this "campaign" has been so carefully and meticulously plotted, that is for certain. And it is a certainty parents who had their little girl abducted do not have the energy for this self serving behaviour, this dedication to window dressing so precisely what the public must see. The McCanns presentation of "events".

viv said...

How can these fastidious presenters of "events" tell us that they went away and left their children with the patio door open, but they are certain Maddie did not wander through it? What gives them that certainty, or indeed the unnatural certainty that nothing has happened to her and she is still alive?

How on earth could they know this, how could they know any of it unless they were involved?

viv said...

and to those who

a) like to maintain the McCanns were simply not involved in her disappearance or

b) maintain they will never be prosecuted, they have some divine intervention "protecting" them

I would just ask them to have a look top right at the look on Gerry McCann's furious and desperate face very recently and tell me that again!

viv said...

and whilst having a look at that video of desperate and furious Gerry, have a look at his reaction when a male British reporter says and there is nothing new being said by the police, "of course there's not" he says, he was already red, but watch the colour bloom right at the moment he says that!

Like the true control freak he is, shut up and let me speak (I have a script here I need to say and by God I am saying it!)

Dripping with sarcasm and rage "you heard that didn't you, there is NO evidence..."

Convince yourself if you like Gerry, you are not convincing the public or the police and that is what counts, you are a liar, a wicked liar and there will be Justice for your lovely little girl who you so mercilessly just got rid of and then immediately started to spin your web of lies and deceit and cashin on your dreadful crime.

Don't talk rubbish said...
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Don't talk rubbish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
viv said...

You are not welcome on this blog with the usual personal abuse, now go and cyberstalk someone else!

Wizard said...

Hi All,

Hope - Glad to hear you got home alright. England and parts of Europe seemed to be completely cut off by the volcanic ash – you were very lucky although an unscheduled few days in Washington would have been nice.

I’ve booked a short city break to Moscow at the end of May flying from Heathrow when I expect the volcanic eruption to have died down – but who knows the expert opinion on when the current volcanic activity will cease is answered by, “how long is a piece of string”. Hmm…

Reading back it was interesting to hear comments from family and friends about Madeleine’s behaviour. What a perfect child she seems to be by their accounts. But in contrast we know Madeleine sleep walked, Kate had difficulty controlling her and was seen on holiday slapping her in a frustrated attempt to discipline her, Mrs Healy tells us the McCanns used diazepam to settle their daughter on occasion, KM tells us that Madeleine will be giving her abductor a tuppence worth, yet the PdL nursery staff describe her as quiet and withdrawn. It just doesn’t add up does it.

There is a condition which would mean none of these people were lying and the spectrum of behaviour being described was accurate but an undiagnosed condition was present. The fact that M’s parents were doctors would not have helped a specialist would be necessary not a GP or heart doctor, they would have been just as likely to be ignorant as ‘Joe public’.

‘Flighty’ parenting seems to be a good description of the McCanns they were good parents when it suited them but feckless when it did not. It’s not surprising something happened to Madeleine with this on-off guardianship. We all know with young children you need eyes in the back of your head but especially so if you have a child who displays a spectrum of behaviour that can be difficult to cope with.

viv said...

Morning Wiz

I hope your own planned trip will be OK! I do not have any scheduled at the moment but am seriously thinking about just popping off somewhere soon before it gets too hot.

Gerry's mom said something like Madeleine could throw a tantrum when it suited her, I think most children can.

I would not be happy at diagnosing her with the problem, it seems more likely to me that parents who seem to just lack normal human empathy caused the problem.

I found Kate's comments "she shrieked for attention when I tried to breast feed the twins" just completely unnatural. To a child who was only a baby herself at the time, just 20 months, she was used to having the attention an suddenly had it taken away from her. There is a sense of deep resentment in Kate's remarks as though there was something wrong with Madeleine, instead of realising she was just a little baby wanting attention herself.

When children are lacking in normal love and attention sleep disorders could develop including waking in the night and constantly seeking to get in bed with mom and dad, to get that attention she needed and "shrieking for attention". I think it was a cry for help and it is wrong to blame the child.

But there are even more worrying reasons that could cause the problems, the deep lines under eyes suggesting lack of sleep, the quiet withdrawn behaviour noted by the nursery staff. Kate and Gerry were wanting to describe her as bubbly and outgoing but what we heard from the nursery staff was that she was timid and frightened. Crying on the small boats that should have been fun I am frightened. IMo there is something terribly wrong here and given they try to describe her as the opposite to how she actually presented they are clearly well aware of that.

Having three young children at an advanced age for a mom could cause all sorts of problems in the mother and in turn the father when the mom is depressed, worn out and not coping. Was all this Madeleine's fault or the fault of two who preferred their own selfish lifestyle, rather than the sheer hard work of nurturing young children?

viv said...

"They gave no indication that they thought she had been snatched, let alone by a paedophile. Their early assumption was that she had wandered off and had an accident or been taken in by a well-meaning stranger."

Alex Woolfall in The Times, the arrest of these two contradictory liars just cannot come a moment too soon!


viv said...

Of course if they had kept that one up, they would not have been able to keep cashing in with their Find Maddie Fiddle/Defence Fighting Fund and let's face it, these two knew straight away neither British cops or Portuguese ones believed a word they said. How could they?> Every time they tell the story it is different!

It was CEOP then and it is CEOP now and no matter how long it takes, as we know, the police never close cases like this!

hope4truth said...

Morning All

Wiz you should be ok by the end of May (fingers crossed) I still cant belive how lucky we are to have got home so quicly the news is full of people who cant move.... We had to pay about £120 to get to the hotel and the airline told us it would be free or we could claim the money back. I must admit this side of things I admire them so much for what they did for us I dont think we will bother claiming it back. At the time it was frustrating but looking at it now they worked wonders....

Viv a 4 bed villa with pool costs between $65000 and $110000 they can be rented depending on size for between £500 - £700 a week although go up and down depending on the season.... Although with the recession I guess you may not fill them every week of the year but with intrest rates for savings being so low it is a good way to get a return on your money even if it was hired out for only half of it....

We are booked up for the next year of so with diffrent holidays and stuff but will do some reasearch and go back again and have a look around (obviously you have to pay an agent cleaners gardeners insurance etc) so it would be good to know all of those costs....

I have not been following Twitter the CEOP are getting a pasting on there are they???? I thought Gerry loved these people or am I reading it wrong???

Don't talk rubbish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
viv said...

You just do not seem to understand plain English do you? When someone tells you, you are not welcome, if you persist that is harassment.

You have been stalking and threatening me, repeating your foul abuse and making endless petty complaints for the last three years because of this blog concerning the activities of Team McCann Do you think this has any more effect now than it they ever did? I am afraid it is you that is stupid.

This is not a world where we have to be bombarded with the endless lies and spin emanating from the McCanns without answering them back.

This is a place where we are concerned about helpless little children and their right to life and safety and I will repeat just one more time, you are not welcome here.

viv said...

Hiya Hope

It sounds like the extra £120 was money well spent and I do not blame you for not bothering to claim it back, at least you are safe and well, thank goodness and that is always the main thing. I had to pay quite a lot for medical treatment in Dom Rep because of inflammation to joints and elevated blood pressure due to the lengthy journey I think, sometimes we just count our blessings and remember how important health and life are, not money. I did not bother to try and claim it back either!

Thanks for the prices and returns, that is incredibly cheap and as you say would provide a far better rate of return than the meagre rates we now get. Keep me updated on your research as to the costs and benefits, cheers!

CEOP, I think Gerry is trying to give the impression he loves them, quite a difference! I am still waiting for him to start bragging to us about the "lecture" he gave them at that conference in January concerning sexually motivated abductions of children. I can understand why it was felt he would be an expert.

viv said...

oh Lol, SB, great post, this person seems to be getting a bit obsessive!

I am being reported to Google for "defaming" the Smiths and Robert Murat, oh how I tremble and what interesting witnesses this person needs to defend! No doubt it will rush back here again any time soon, even though told it is not welcome!

S.B. said... 84

A. Dubliner @ 54.......

Please accept my apologies for doubting the credibility of the Smith family. It is now clear from your adamant support of the Smiths that you are personally acquainted with them and are therefore in a position to speak as a character witness. Of course I should have realised by your assumed name that you have strong connections with the Irish fraternity and like as not would have personal knowledge of the family.

It is fortunate that you are in a position to clarify the validity of the Smiths assertions as, apart from official statements contained within the police files, we have only press reports to guide us which can be tenuous to say the least - as you rightly point out all this information is available on the maccannfiles! Your hypothetical scenario I presume to be an example of your sense of humour - sometimes we need a sense of humour to cope with this case so thank you for that light diversion.

You appear to have incorporated two of my posts together with comments submitted by 'viv' which I think has slightly confused the point you are trying to make. Although discouraged by the site administrator it is not unusual for posters to go off-topic, I don't think I am an exception so I offer no excuses for having done so. Otherwise I have asked a few questions for which I hoped somebody would answer but as always - no answers, just antagonism!

Don't talk rubbish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
viv said...

I know I should not engage in such frivolity but this post is so funny, I just could not resist reproducing it here. I love the capital letters/block capitals and the inability to distinguish between fabricated evidence and accurate representation of that on a police file. In fact the whole thing has some highly curious definitions and seems terribly defensive. I just love "and Walla", did you mean et voila (no capital required) my educated little friend?

Anonymous said... 86

S.B @284

Let me correct you on a couple of points you raised.

I Dont know personally or otherwise any member of the Smith family or indeed any of the Irish fraternity (as you put it bordering on a racist remark)

I have never been to PDL.

I DO have my suspicions that you and VIV are one and the same.

I only discovered the published facts of this case after I heard on a news channel that the mc canns had got a temporary injuction on the Truth Of The Lie book, I then googled the book and Walla I discovered all these blogs and websites and thats how I came to Learn of the Smiths. Sorry for spoiling your Eureka moment.

I didnt read or see anything in any newspapers or rags I simply read the Police files which SURELY your not suggesting are fabricated?
You started your previous off topic post saying you too have your suspicions of the Smiths suggesting that someone else in the gamble topic had brought it up first.
You as you well know were simply trying to put false information into readers minds.
Regarding the scenario point you try to ridicule, you seem to have a weird sense of humour if you find that remotely funny but the Truth sometimes hurts S.B or whoever you are Doesnt it.


viv said...

I can just imagine Gerry sitting reading bloggers endlessly agonising about the Tanner and Smith sightings, his two favourites as he recently told us.

I can also see that nasty little smirk play across his face, you are not funny though Gerry, even if you do pull a lot of strings among the Sun readership.

Don't talk rubbish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
viv said...

I have politely pointed out to you before that you have an obsession with me and you should seek help. That friendly advice is still on offer.

viv said...

Well indeed, how on earth could anything Gerry says be a Gerry fake, let us believe in everything that emanates from the lips of Team McCann and not libel these innocent witnesses with their Irish roots xx

Anonymous said... 91

How can the Smith sighting be a 'Gerry Fake' when Mr Smith is saying the man looked like Gerry?

Why would Gerry be wanting to point suspicion at himself by getting Mr Smith to identify him as the man, when he has Jane Tanner with her earlier sighting of bundleman giving him an alibi?

The Smith sighting would be the last thing he would want. Nor do the McCanns make mention of it, except in passing, and not as the man being identified as looking like Gerry.

But not to fear if Gerry was spotted by the Smith party, because up pops Jane Tanner with that bundleman sighting at the same time he was talking to Wilkins.

How convenient, because otherwise the Smith sighting would have been to the fore as the main sighting.

Given Jane Tanner's constant changes to her story, the Smith sighting should be the only one to be taken seriously.
18/04/2010 21:53

viv said...

so what if they do like to repeatedly appear in the press, that is no reason to cast aspersions, is it?

Shame on me :-))))

viv said...

Martin Smith it totally believable, it was due to his concerns that he wanted to keep appearing in the press.

And the family really did see this. Martin Smith went and told the Portuguese Police and took him 12 year old daughter and 33 year old son with him, and they wrote a statement saying yes, that is right, that is what dad/we saw.

I am sure there is a perfectly innocent explanation as to why Martin Smith's wife refuses to give a statement to the police confirming that is what she also saw. Her dislike of the police must be a lot stronger than her concern for helping the police find a missing child. That is completely understandable.

Don't talk rubbish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
viv said...

A typical case where Amber Alert is useful to the authorities. The offeder who has the child is known, the offender is frequently the parent and the child is at imminent risk of very serious harm. Publicising details of such a known offender can enlist the help of the public in quickly getting the child back to safety.

Police say woman severely beat her mother
Thursday, November 20, 2008 at 10:44 a.m.

Read more: State, Crime

SPRING BRANCH, TEXAS (AP) -- An Amber Alert has been issued for a 6-year-old girl who authorities say was taken by her mother.

Authorities say they suspect 41-year-old Tonya Renee Martin of taking Jewel Noel Klein Tuesday afternoon from Rebecca Creek Elementary School.

Officials say they also suspect Martin of severely beating her mother -- 68-year-old Melba Balantac -- who has legal conservatorship of Jewel.

Comal County Sheriff's Department spokesman Mark Reynolds says Balantac was beaten very badly.

The Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express-News report deputies were able to communicate with Balantac for a short time.

Deputies said she was able to give them some information, implicating her daughter.

Investigators realized Jewel was missing only after Balantac was taken to the hospital.

Reynolds said Martin was seen driving Balantac's blue Hyundai Sonata before the assault.

viv said...

and a typical example of an Amber Alert for a known and highly dangerous paeodphile on the loose. This also demonstrates the typical conduct of a paedophile, children love him, he is like a pied piper, offering to "care" for your kids to give you a break (remind you of someone). He will sometimes become nomadic in an attempt to stay one step ahead of the police, here typically wandering between Donegal in Ireland and Glasgow...

Is he living beside you???

His name is Peter Park. D.o.b 8/6/44 He is bald, but always wears a “bonnet” he is about 5′8″ with a very strong polite Donegal accent. Recently moved to the parkhead area Glasgow ( maybe last 2-3 yrs). He has spent many years moving to and from Ireland and worked with the gas company PRESS in Glasgow. He resided with A Mrs Eileen Collum at 303 Paisley Rd West, for many years. And also with his sister Annie Deegan at 3 Cranhill St Blackhill and 26 Craigendmuir St Blackhill

He was convicted and sentenced in Donegal Circuit Court to 28 yrs in Castlerea Prison Co Leitrim Ireland in 1999, for the sexual abuse and RAPE of boys over a FOUR DECADE period..60s,70,80s and 90s, (two 12 years concurrent and one 4 yr). He only served 8yrs, and was released 2006.

At his trial he was described by the Judge as “a great danger to children” and ” a master of cunning and deceit”, evidence was also given that he treatened to kill his victims if they exposed him. During his prison sentence he did NOT avail of any sex therapy programmes that were available to him. He has avoided the sex offenders register in Ireland,(as it wasnt in force when he was convicted). Hence his freedom of movement.

This man is extremely cordial and polite and would NEVER be considered a paedophile.,EVER.,until its to late .His “modus operandi” is to gain the trust of parents by being extremely helpful to them, especially in times of crisis, thus allowing him access to their children, he has a “PIED PIPER” persona where children would easily follow him, and is a master at this.


viv said...

“a great danger to children” and ” a master of cunning and deceit”,...extremely cordial and polite and would never be considered a paedophile...

Sounds a bit like the two Dr Gaspar was describing, Gerry McCann and David Payne.

viv said...

Gerry's little Mentorn Media Production:

Channel 4 - Madeleine Was here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id235.html 7 May 2009
Voice over: It is possible that JT is not the only person who saw Madeleine being carried away by the abductor. 40 minutes after J(T)’s sighting and ½ mile away from the Mc’s apartment a family also saw a man carrying a young girl away from the town. Later the witness thought that this might have been GM. But, this was investigated and ruled out by the Portuguese police.

Now do you want to pop back again Rubbish Speaker and tell us this is not Gerry's version of events? Because that would be odd given it is his film!

Gerry, David Payne, Kate, Fiona had already made sure Maddie was gone long before we get these fantasy abductor sightings.

Don't talk rubbish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
viv said...

I have just about had enough of you, post just one more time on this blog and you will reported to your IP Provider and the Police:

IP Information -
Host name host86-131-168-32.range86-131.btcentralplus.com
Country United Kingdom
Country Code GB
Region Lisburn
City Lisburn
Latitude 54.5167
Longitude -6.0667

viv said...

"I Dont Know the Smiths personally" ??
18/04/2010 21:58
Anonymous said... 93

Thanks for your comments Bridget @290
Viv/S.B Do seem to use the tabloids as their sources of false information and totally conveniently ignoring the pj files.

If Viv is of the same opinion as the majority of posters on Joannas Blog why does she make every attempt to dis credit the Smiths?and like wise S.B?
I have asked Viv in previous posts Why and What information she has
that makes her say the Smiths are Gerrys Fabrication and of course she hasnt addressed these questions to date (reminds me of Kate)were waiting VIV!
S.B hasnt given her/his reasons either for ignoring the police files and quoting the tenuous tabloids as she/he puts it.

I Dont Know the Smiths personally or otherwise except for what I have read in the police files which I beleive to be the only published facts and truth in this case because as we all know you cant beleive what you read in the papers.


viv said...

It just never pays to underestimate the terrible danger that seemingly "ordinary people" may pose to children or just how crucial their "communications" can be in catching and convicting them. "Hundreds have now been identified", I hope those hundreds of people now realise that abusing children is vile and evil and THEY WILL BE CAUGHT AND CONVICTED.

The Police and CEOP did a great job here and I remain confident they will in the case of little Maddie McCann xx

Paedophiles who were 'ordinary' people
By Stuart Richards
BBC News, Kent

Hand on a computer keyboard

Three jailed for abusing children
Hundreds of suspected child sex offenders in the UK and as far afield as Venezuela have been identified in a police investigation sparked by the chance discovery of a sickening e-mail.

Already five paedophiles have admitted a total of 77 offences, including rape of a child, distributing indecent images of children and incitement to kidnap.

They include a man who arranged a rendezvous with two other people where a 12-year-old girl and a 13-year-old boy were abused in a six-hour orgy.

Another masqueraded as a woman on the internet and had a "shopping list" of child abuse which he asked others to carry out.

Kent Police's Operation Starlight has now seen four of the five jailed for their crimes, with the final one due to be sentenced next month.

The detective who led the investigation said none of the offenders had any previous convictions, their family and friends had no idea what was going on, and they were all "people you wouldn't glance at twice in the street".

Following their convictions, details of the main offenders in the shocking paedophile network can be revealed.


The police operation began in October 2006 when an e-mail suggesting child abuse was discovered by the girlfriend of Steven Horton, a 44-year-old warehouse supervisor from Burkestone Close, Kemsley, near Sittingbourne, Kent.

Police were alerted and when they knocked on his door a few days later, Horton said: "I've been expecting you."

Steven Horton
Steven Horton abused the children himself and let others do the same
He admitted sexually abusing children as well as viewing and posting images of abuse on the internet.

One of his victims, a 12-year-old girl, had told officers that she and a 13-year-old boy were taken to a house in Fleet, Hampshire, in June 2005.

It was arranged over the internet and Horton was "offering the kids out to those who wanted them", according to Acting Det Sgt Dave Shipley.

Two people who were "more than willing" to go along were Archibald (Alex) Wood and Monica McCanch.


Wood, an ex-Army major, was chair of governors at Tavistock College and also sat on the governing body of an infant school.

viv said...

McCanch, 55, formerly of Ash in east Kent, was a family friend.

Archibald Wood and Monica McCanch
Wood and McCanch met at services on the M3 prior to the abuse
They met at Fleet services on the M3 before making their way to the house to meet Horton.

"They turned up and committed sexual abuse against the children," said Mr Shipley.

He arrested Wood, 60, at his home in Tavistock, Devon, on 3 November 2006.

In November last year McCanch was living in Montego Bay, Jamaica, but she voluntarily flew back to the UK and was arrested at Heathrow Airport.

All three pleaded guilty to child sex charges, and Horton and Wood also admitted offences related to child abuse images on the internet.

The trio were sentenced at Maidstone Crown Court on Thursday.

Horton was given an indeterminate jail sentence with a minimum term of five-and-a-half years; Wood was jailed for seven years; and McCanch was handed a six-year sentence.

The children abused by Horton, Wood and McCanch in Hampshire are both going through counselling.


Cutting-edge digital forensics technology also allowed Kent Police to identify other paedophiles.

The original e-mail seen by Horton's girlfriend turned out to involve another man, 47-year-old Vincent Jordan, from Wyre Drive, Worsley, Greater Manchester.

The pair had arranged to meet at a motorway service station in Oxfordshire, with Horton taking the same two children abused in Hampshire, but it never actually took place.

Jordan, an account manager for a software company who was married with two children of his own, had used the internet to "encourage people to rape and kidnap children".

He posed as a woman and asked others to post images and video clips, in order to establish whether or not they were real paedophiles.

"Everything that he did he referred to as a game," Mr Shipley said.

"He got a kick out of proving that somebody wasn't a child abuser.

"At no stage when I interviewed him did he ever really agree with the concept that he was causing abuse against real children."


One paedophile who responded to Jordan's "abuse to order" requests was Randolph Ingham, 30, of Ben Jonson Close, Torquay, Devon.

He photographed himself abusing a toddler and sent the images to Jordan over the internet.

Randolph Ingham
Randolph Ingham was jailed for six years for child abuse offences

Ingham was jailed for six years at Exeter Crown Court last Friday after admitting 15 offences.

Jordan is due to sentenced at Maidstone Crown Court on 15 October. He has pleaded guilty to a total of 20 offences.

"This is by far the worst series of offences that we've dealt with," Mr Shipley admitted.

"Just the sheer magnitude of the offences and the amount of distribution... it's quite shocking really.

"We are pursuing 198 different offenders all of whom have been at the very least discussing child abuse, more often than not exchanging indecent images, and sometimes discussing the abuse which they themselves are carrying out."

Three jailed for abusing children
13 Sep 07 | England
Man jailed for child abuse photos
07 Sep 07 | England

Kent Police
Crown Prosecution Service
Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre
The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites

Flight ban leaves schools closed
Burglar murder charge is dropped
Police name child killed by dog
News feeds| News feeds

viv said...

I think this does confirm that it would have been Mr Carpenter who Jane Tanner saw carrying a child because he was in that locality at that time. Unfortunately, thereafter she went into spin overdrive, I am sure the police know that! When we have the police files made public it is very dishonest of Kate and Gerry to keep suggesting to the public she actually saw anything relevant to the disappearance of Madeleine, but there again, they are something more than just dishonest.

From Stephen Carpenter's Rogatory interview:

Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry’s apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling “Madeleine, Madeleine”, this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine’s disappearance”.

SC: Humm... vaguely, I think it was what was put in the statement, the same, the leaving the restaurant, the way back to the apartment, looking to my left to check that the way was clear and I didn’t see anything....My wife vaguely remembers hearing “Madeleine, Madeleine” and that was all until the following morning when I saw the television.

DCF: Yes, and where you state that it was on GMTV.

SC:: Yes..

DCF: I think that it was reported that it was a three year old child and probably thought who could it be and knew that Kate and Gerry were from Leicestershire and assumed that it was one of their children seeing that they had small children'

viv said...

and tantalisingly he does say at the start of his interview that he is concerned that events have been distorted in the press.

That would be something to do with Kate and Gerry, I think!

hope4truth said...


I had not read about this family before how did I miss that???

The probelem with JTs statement is it keeps changing she was too far away to see anything the Gerry and Jez did not see her and the bundle man has more faces than the town hall clock...

When people lie they give too many details and adapt them to suit the story they are trying to convince the person they are lying to...

I do fear for Jane she was treated like dirt in PDL and that must have taken some courage to go back and face the people there who witnessed the strange behaviour of them all in the days after the so called abduction...

She knows people dont believe her and to be told on camera she is wrong and brushed aside like an annoying fly was humiliating and totaly out of order....

She seems like a normal woman it is a shame she has been dragged down with the others and it would never surprise me to see her used as a scape goat one day...

Di said...

Hi All

Looked in yesterday then received important phonecall and forgot to log off until late evening, sorry Viv if you thought I was around, I don't know how these blogs work.


So glad you made it back many friends I know are stranded abroad and have been told it will be early May before they can return. I am glad you enjoyed your holiday though.

Di said...

Hi Viv

Interesting that Amanda Coxon says she does not know of any problem related to Madeleine's sleeping habits. Did Amanda not see the Maddie star chart on the fridge! The one that awarded Madeleine a star if she stayed in bed.

I would say to go to these lengths of reward then Madeleine certainly did have a sleep problem. As Kate's own parents have also stated.

Di said...


Maddie hiding in the bushes when it was bedtime.

My children used to love bedtime at that age, it would be story time warm milk and cuddles.
Admittedly when they got to about 7
they would do anything to get out of going to bed.

What was Madeleine afraid of?

Di said...

Off for a while.

hope4truth said...

Hello Di

so sorry to hear about your friends stuck all over the place I am so lucky to have got home so quickly...

Yes a star chart for a child is only really used if there is a probelm no point awarding a star to a child who is asleep in minutes every night is there....

The lack of life information about Maddie and the McCanns is very odd but then the papers can only print what they are allowed to print so I guess we will never know....

Di said...

Hello Hope

Although my friends are not happy about being stuck abroad, I am sure their children are happy not to be returning to school just yet!

I agree Hope, no life information about Madeleine and her parents is extremely odd. Madeleine's Doctor said he had never seen her, which I find totally unbelievable.

Things have gone very quiet, which always makes me think something is about to break.

We also have Murat V Tanner case up and running.

hope4truth said...

Hello Di

I must admit there is a side of me that secretly wishes we had been a few hours later with our flight and had been stuck in Washington for a while... Never been there and would never choose to go there but it would have been a good time to visit.... I have a thing for the President had to laugh when we got to Paris he was on the TV giving a speach from Kendey Space Centre where we had been the week before so I think he is avoiding me LOL....

I forgot about the Murat V Tanner thing wonder how that will pan out???

Yes very queit there will be a sighting soon no doubt...


Don't talk rubbish said...
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Don't talk rubbish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
viv said...

I am aware you are on this site at the moment.

You have set feedjit to state that you are posting from Scotland but are actually in Ireland.

You hang around here at 3 am to try and post your sick little threats, get some help?!

Both the Tanner and the Smith "sightings" are fakes and I am going to continue to point that out.

The McCanns removed Madeleine from the apartment early in the evening, see email Ricardo Paiva/DC Marshall October 2007.

Don't talk rubbish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Don't talk rubbish said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
viv said...

Morning guys, an eventful night again with a lot of visits from trolls, clearly someone is terribly worried that the Tanner and Smith "sightings" are just being dismissed for the rubbish that they are including I notice by some decent posters on 3 As main discussion thread.

It fairly beggars belief that anyone as cunning and manipulative as Gerry McCann would actually get himself spotted removing Madeleine and the Smith sighting was formally dismissed in the final report from the Portuguese.

Hope, shall I email Barack and see if there is any chance for you :-)))

As American presidents go, I always found Clinton utterly charming and can understand how his various secretaries etc must have felt!

viv said...

Di, unfortunately I have had to learn about IP tracing etc (a subject that bores me to tears) to try and protect this blog and its members from continual attacks but please rest assured I am not the least bit concerned with whether or not you or logged on here. I know which IP addresses I need to watch and your own is obviously not one of them!

viv said...

It seems like all three of us are concerned about Jane Tanner and how she has been used and abused in this affair. It was quite natural that she would mention having seen a man carrying a child, I am sure how it went from there fills her with horror. I just wish she would have the sense to protect herself and start telling the police the truth, but who knows, maybe she already has done.

I am not at all clear about this apparent action Murat v her, I think I will need to wait and see whether or not this is just some more spin! I cannot for the life of me see what she has done to give him any cause of action against her and still feel it is highly possible he is involved with Team McCann. Seems to me Jane needs HELP!

viv said...

Hiya Di,

I just cannot imagine, when my own boys were little, on holiday, taking them in at 6 pm and saying right you are getting ready for bed. At that time of night it would not happen under any circumstances, let alone on holiday when they are obviously allowed to stay up. But the McCanns were the only ones on that trip who would not even let the twins have an afternoon nap, all of this is interlinked.

Maddie running away and hiding at bedtime, as you say this is not something that normally fills little children with such fear. My own boys always used to have a great time in the bath prior to bed and they absolutely loved it, stories too of course. In fact my middle son used to sit me down with a story book and if I skipped a few lines point that out to me, he knew every line so well! He loved his books, they are something little ones cherish, again it makes me think of them just tearing up one of Maddie's books when they were expecting the police to start rehearsing their "timeline" for when Maddie supposedly "disappeared".

It is that callous disregard towards children that is always shown, oh well, she will not be needing that again!

I wonder what else British Police discovered when they entered the McCanns home and found that star chart on the fridge. But that was something to hit them with right away, wasn't it, so you know this little girl keeps waking up, she has a sleep disorder, but you think it is OK to go out and leave her?

viv said...

But there are still some very ghoulish people I see continuing to insist that you would only carry a child lying across your body, rather than up against it, if that child is dead!

That is the most obscene rubbish, I have carefully got my sleeping kids out of the car in exactly that way and carried them up to bed to try and avoid waking them when they were little, what is wrong with these people! It is exactly how you carry a sleeping tot!

viv said...

This is something that will continue to haunt me.

Mrs Fenn stating that on Tuesday 1 May from 10.30 until 11.45 Maddie was crying increasingly more distressed, Daddy, Daddy. Then Mrs Fenn hears the patio door and the crying stops.

The statement from the cleaner, she goes into the apartment the next morning Wed 2 May Kate and Gerry are there but the children have gone to creche. She notices the bed under the window is messy, but Madeleine's own bed has not been slept in. There is a cot in the McCanns bedroom and one in the childrens bedroom. Kate herself admits that on Wed 2 May she slept in that bed under the window, did she also sleep there the night Maddie had been crying all night given the bed was messy?

Who was the cot for in the McCanns's bedroom, what on earth was going on? Is that where Maddie was when she was crying in that cot in the McCanns bedroom? Or was it put in there when they got back to try and console Madeleine?

I am sure there was something awful going on here.

Wizard said...

Good Morning,

I’ve just been reading back and catching up.

Troll activity is always a prequel to anti-McCann news about to break. It's likely related to the Tanner vs Murat case which will be taking centre stage shortly.

Tanner sighting could still be pivotal in this case. Most people agree that it would have been impossible for her to walk pass GM and Wilkins without being seen. Therefore why did she think it necessary to say she saw them - the only reason I can come up with is it was important to set the time of her sighting and not not drop Gerry in it.

I think Viv’s suggestion it was Carpenter she saw carrying his 3 year old home (9.30pm) is very plausible. Although Carpenter was with other members of his family he might well have been lagging behind a bit as he was carrying a child and when Tanner saw him the rest of the family had already passed from sight. It also covers the point as to why no one has come forward for this sighting (to eliminate themselves for the enquiries) and thereby suggesting it could have been an abductor.

Why then did she lie about the timing and why say she saw GM and Wilkins, something after all that could easily be checked. Turning this argument on its head the question could be why are GM and Wilkins denying seeing her.

There is something very wrong with her reported sighting and I would think the impending Tanner/Murat case is causing Team McCann some very sticky moments.

viv said...

I would just add to that I do not think it is any coincidence that the conduct of Murat so accurately mirrors that of the McCanns.

He gets "libelled£" by the press and cashes in on a fortune, he makes speeches to Oxbridge, he is even reported to be pursuing a damages claim in Portugal.

There is a real problem IMO between the McCanns and Jane Tanner.

This just has a really bad smell to me, but it will all come out in the wash!


viv said...

(amended to correct date of McCanns original applicaton, 2007, not 2008!)

Police question to Kate McCann she refused to answer:

"Were you thinking of transferring custody of Madeleine"? Well Mrs Justice Hogg has thrown a ring of care around Madeleine and well and truly transferred custody away from her two highly abusive parents! IMO The Police will keep searching for her, dead or alive, but either way she would never be safe with Kate and Gerry McCann and will NOT be going back to them if she is found.

Morning Wiz,

Well I certainly agree with you about that, the sort of franctic troll activity that I am currently getting, including attacking me on Joana Morais, whilst pretending to be an "anti" means there is something big and bad in the offing for the McCanns.

There have been specific "themes" the trolls have wanted to redress:

1) They want to insist that the McCanns themselves made Madeleine a Ward of Court, rather than what plainly did happen. They applied for return of custody of Madeleine on 17 May 2007 and ancillary orders that the police should keep them advised, which were granted.

But on 2 April 2008 when the applied to have those orders enforced against the Police, Mrs Justice Hogg immediately made Madeleine a Ward of Court, i.e. directly overturning the order made a year previously that Madeleine should be returned to them.

This clearly implies that Mrs Justice Hogg has knowledge and information from the police investigation into the McCanns that was ongoing at that stage in both Portugal and UK that Madeleine may be still alive.

2. They want to insist that the Smith sighting in particular is correct in spite of the fact it was formally dismissed by the Portuguese Police investigation.

I continue to believe that all of this is to cover the fact that earlier in the evening the McCanns took part in a planned kidnapping of Madeleine. The trolls need to deny the actions of Mrs Justice Hogg because that would point to me being right and they need to insist those later sightings are correct because they stop people from talking about when Maddie really disappeared.

Almost all bloggers on this case are nothing but spin!

viv said...

To the Gerry boot crew, I have just posted this at the top of this thread, which is staying as long as I see fit, British Police are focussing on Gerry McCann.

You ought to know by now, it does not matter how much you threaten me, I am not intimidated, so go and shove your threats and as for your pathetic drivel attacking me, you are very sad. Justice for Maddie and let the truth be known!

viv said...

Typically the sort of bruise that can clearly be seen to Kate's elbow, arm holding phone, is caused in domestic violence cases when someone shoves you backwards with considerable force into a wall. I wonder if that is how Kate got it? She also had bruising to face, visible split over her eye, and grab mark bruising to the arms. This certainly suggests there was considerable disharmony between Kate and Gerry around the time Maddie disappeared given these pictures showing the bruising were immediately after that sad event. Looking at the build of Gerry and Kate it is not at all difficult to see who would be on the losing side. Neither is it difficult to see this man has a very abusive temper. Of course there are a lot of bloggers who will very aggresively tell you she is no poor domestic violence case, they will also tell she killed Madeleine. But I can tell you he is the type to dish out a bit of domestic violence if anyone should dare to disagree with him and he is also the type to have bloggers posting for him. A discussion of such clear evidence in the case should not really provoke an aggressive reaction from "normal" people, should it? I do not think these "Pro Gerry" bloggers who pretend they are something else could be described as anything like normal. Pointing out Kate was covered in bruises, something Fiona Payne ultimately sought to make excuses for several months later, is not making excuses for her, it is simply pointing out a fact. But there are people who simply want you to ignore the facts in this case and listen to their sickening spin. They are men and it is not just women they can be abusive to, but children as well, like little Madeleine.

That vicious look with angry pursed up lips at Kate, as they hold their posters in this stage managed world publicity campaign to make Gerry look like some innocent man says it all really, he cannot hold his vile temper long enough to ever look innocent. That look says "you blow this and God help you and your kids".

viv said...

Popping out for a few hours now for a nice bit of lunch.

BBL xxx

S.B. said...

Di….., Thanks for the welcome!

Yes, there are a number of statements made by the Mccanns over the months that require analysis. Gerald undoubtedly thinks himself to be very clever but sometimes he grossly over steps the mark by saying either too much or something that can be considered highly ominous - in other words he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut, much to his detriment I rather think!

At present I can't keep my mind off the Smiths, it just doesn't add up. Firstly his memory recall must be brilliant if after four months he can be sure of the identity of Mccann, in fact he appears to be more certain than he was originally. So let’s go along with the sighting and suppose it to be Gerald carrying Madeleine through the streets after dark. If he was disposing of a body, dead or alive, why on earth did he carry it around the streets - the chances of being seen by somebody must have been high indeed! Where was he going? Again whatever the intention there is a strong possibility of his being seen. Would it not be more logical to conceal a body in some receptacle or arrange for some form of transport? If Smith was considered by the police to be a credible witness his testimony would have been confidential and yet he was only too willing to go blabbing to the press.

On the night of the sighting it was dark and illuminated only by dingy streetlights and yet the Smiths appear to give a very precise description of the passing stranger and his encumbrance. Now I know I am getting very confused but something needs to be clari-fied! Smith was due to leave Portugal on 9th May 2007, two days after Madeleine’s disappearance. He returned to Portugal on 26th May for purpose of witness testimony. If he did not leave the country until two days after the sighting he must have heard of the ‘abduction’ locally so why then did he not tell the Portuguese police what he allegedly saw before leaving?

I can't draw any supposition from this but nonetheless I think it is all very suspicious and I do not trust this man one bit! I rather think that you maybe right viv, it would appear to be very likely that the Smiths were paid a nice little sum of money for this act of perjury. Just enough realism to appear authentic and yet at the same time creating further confusion with possible suspects lurking about the vicinity.

Apologies to all if this post is a trifle irrelevant but I have not been able to log-on to the site for about 4 days! Just couldn’t resist responding to A. Dubliners attack – WALLA!

viv said...

SB What a fantastic post, I just do not think I can top that, welcome back. It is great to have someone who sees exactly the same thing is Gerry McCann as I do myself, calculating and evil. Overstepping the mark because it amuses him and he is so convinced his endless schemes are so terribly clever they will actually work. For some people they clearly do.

I too am fascinated with the Smith sighting more so because of the malevolent attacks I have been getting concerning it, both on here and elsewhere. It takes a certain rare type of offender to behave in this way. But I do feel for Martin Smith's wife, I think she must be very worried. What a terrible position to be put into, unless she is just happy with the big payoff!

If they were not actually due to leave PDL until 9 May that is 6 days later! I think it was a bit sooner than that but even so, as you say, he could not have missed the commotion. Gerry did let slip didn't he, he wanted to reach out to the Irish populatio, I am sure he has a lot of "contacts" there, and no doubt his good friends like Geraghty and Kennedy do too. It was certainly interesting to discover the IP address of my abusive little friend came from Ireland.

Now you hurry up and post again, you know you are not "a trifle irrelevant", it is absolutely great to read you!


viv said...

And Walla - (A.Dubliner/Bridget/Louise/Christabel/A.Sensible Person et al, 2010), it is the literal translation from the French, don't you know :-))))

hope4truth said...

Hello ALL

(Hello SB Welcome)...

I am only here in between meetings so will have to dash...

A thought occured to me this morning...

Mrs Justice Hogg made maddie a ward of court now did she do this because she does not belive a word the McCanns have said or because she just has a few doubts....?

We have seen all to often lately that children are being let down by social services and some major heads have rolled as part of the clean up operation....

I am sure some have been scape goats but some "Managers" do like to sit in their ivory towers and do very littl "Managing"

People may well be covering their own butts now can you imagine if it is ever proved they did kill Maddie (not an accident) in a fit of rage or she had been abused???

The twins have been left to live with these people and whilst I hope this did not happen anything is still possible....

Even if they did give her away and create a fraudulant fund they are hardly parent material are they???

The fact Kate is so concerned for Maddie she has not answered very simple questions should be ringing alarm bells becaue if anything happends to the twins there are going to be some very powerful people who will have a lot of explaining to do. Even if I believed she was abducted (which frankly is very unlikely) I would not want to lend my name to their cause because it looks very much that dead or alive they know exactly where she is....

It could cost Gordon the Election if something broke before the vote he was involved early on and as an inteligent (I would hope anyway) man he must see how many holes their story has and the fact it stemed from neglect he should have instead of supporting them supported Maddie the victim....

viv said...

Hiya Hope

I think Gerry believes himself to be invincible, any battle he takes on, he feels he can win. But time and again with that attitude he comes a serious cropper.

If you throw a load of cash at highly expensive lawyers and tell them to do something for you then they will! But just like the action against Goncalo, this application to the High Court when they had become prime suspects in Madeleine's disappearance was an unmitigated disaster. Purely on the basis of what the McCanns themselves go on TV and say they are labelling themselves as a serious danger to Madeleine and that is without all the highly confidential stuff Mrs Justice Hogg had access to from the Police. They invoked the inherent jurisdiction of the High Court due to Madeleine being out of the jurisdiction when they sought the return of Madeleine to them, should she be found and they should have realised that gave Mrs Justice Hogg the opportunity to do precisely what she did when they sought to enforce prying orders against the Police. Criminal jurisdition will always come above civil and Mrs Justice Hogg was bound to respect that. That had to back down in the High Court and it was another humiliating defeat for them. Not to mention a huge waste of money. They were very desperate to get their hands on the British Agency files against them and know just how bad things were, but they had to accept we do not tell them!

I do not know how things will pan out for them in their libel action against Goncalo, but would not be the least bit surprised if UK have quietly intervened to block that for them as well.

They are being stitched up by Portugal and UK in relation to the criminal case against them and just cannot really win. The Pt Judges were always blocking what UK wanted to be blocked so that UK can proceed against them, when there is sufficient evidence and probably when they find little Maddie.

viv said...

Hope, I would just add that Gordon Brown was bound to support them at the outset but it was politically very unwise to do so personally. They had a right to at least initially be considered innocent in the disappearance of Madeleine. They also had a right to Foreign Office assistance when being considered suspects. UK would obviously want our own police there as well, because that sort of crime by UK citizens is UK business!

Since it became clear that the McCanns were prime suspects in her disappearance Gordon Brown severed all links but he should not have had them in the first place. I think he became emotional and given they are doctors assumed, very wrongly they must be innocent.

IMO this case is nothing to do with child neglect that is a front for very serious child abuse. But would the conservatives seek to make some political capital out of the McCanns, yes I think they would be quite happy to use them i that way. But neither Brown or Cameron are going to be seen to be getting behind these two, they would have to be crazy really, it is just not going to happen and never would.

viv said...

Waves to you Lisburn, you just cannot stay away can you, lol!

viv said...

Seems like you don't know whether you are coming or going, Walla Dubliner

viv said...

You are shy today, how are your good friends Martin Smith and Robert Murat? Well, I hope xx

hope4truth said...

Hi Viv

Of course they should be thought of as innocent the focus on the night and the days after she was missing was of course to look for her and assume the parents innocent (but still question them)...

I have never heard of a parent of a missing child getting such attention from a high ranking member of the Government before or since though...

Children are snatched far too often and the Government dont get involved (probebly for the reason if the parents are responsible as they so often are they will have egg on their face)....

viv said...

hiya Hope

But Gordon Brown has been sympathetic to Jade Goody and her boyfriend (again very unwisely in his case, look what he has done now! ). I do not see the difference, just a PM who interferes in things where he would be better standing back. In the case of the McCanns he has been doing that for a very long time, I honestly cannot understand why people are going back to what he did in early 2007! That is three years ago now and it just sounds to me like people are clutching at straws trying to suggest the McCanns are in favour!

viv said...

This Portuguese lady on Joana's blog writes in a very moving way about the Madeleine case..

We are the naives. We who believe in justice and in truth, and I speak special about me.
I cried when the first reports appeared in TV showing a little girl more or less the same age as my younger son. I feel like if the case happen to me, even because I use to do summer holidays in the Algarve and I always feel safe there. I feel the pain which Madeleine went trough if she was at the hands of a paedophile or even just a normal strange. I can't imagine my son on that situation. This news coming everyday, a lot of time to the screens of our TVs, developed a Kind of paranoia similar to the Sep.11. I remember to check my main door every night to see that is locked, to check the kids every time I wake-up. My oldest one even made a video with Madeleine and was prepared to sent it to Mccann's website to see if they want it for their campaign. Everybody was talking about the little British missing in the Algarve and the doubts about the parents start raising the conversations, based on their behaviour. My oldest stop the video saying that in the School, a British School there is no pictures about Madeleine, even if the majority of the population in the School were British and traveling a lot to Europe. The School raise money to everything and everybody. Madeleine was out of School issue and this was May 2007. Wonder what message the embassy passed to the School.
One night, after reading a story to my youngest boy, he ask me: Do you think Madeleine had a story tonight? I fall in tears immediately. I said Maybe. Then he recall me into reality: Why are you crying? I never saw her mum crying in the TV. I think her mum knows where she is, this is why she never cry.
Amazing how even little childs noticed bizarre attitudes. From that night, I start looking at the case with 2 point of views: real abduction and faked abduction, and over the time become very unbalanced the evidences reported in the news and the behaviour of the Mccann's. Faked abduction is getting more points day after day and THE PARENTS GOT AWAY WITH WHAT HAPEN IN MAY IN PDL.
In the last Portuguese parliament session, there was an episode between Socrates and Louca and the cameras were going around. what I saw- Ferreira Leite seating side by side with Arnaut. She was the ex-leader of PSD( The party who dropped Amaral) and he (Arnaut), Isabel Duarte was reported to be part of his office.

viv said...

There never will be any green lights in Portugal, this case also involves fraud and can only be brought in the UK. Justice can be a long and complex process but the McCanns are already feeling the effect of that, hence their need to just keep on desperately spinning.

It is right there is no evidence of any stranger abduction, just a couple of fake sightings that Gerry smirkingly chose to mention recently, his own fantasy creations. The Smith and The Tanner Sightings. The reality is very different, there are no sightings of little Maddie or him disposing of her, he made very sure of that. That is why it is so difficult for the police. People have seen this as a simple matter, by placing their faith in people who say well arrest them for neglect, or arrest them because the dogs said so, but that is not based on harsh legal reality.

S.B. said...

This is just to thank you guys for your kind words of welcome!

viv said...

Hiya again SB, YOu are very welcome indeed!

Viv xx

S.B. said...

Whoops!...... I have only just managed to log-on to Morais blog since posting my response to walla Dubliner. The doubting of the Smith sighting seems to have caused quite a stir although I find it difficult to understand how so many can be sure of Mr Smiths credibility. Anything contained within the case files known to us is word of mouth from the Smiths and in that respect does not differ from that of the Mccanns - and we all no how reliable they are! So unless the Smiths be known personally how can anybody be convinced that they are 100% legitimate, especially bearing in mind the strange circumstances of their apparent involvement.

Nor can I understand how my reference to "the Irish fraternity" can be interpreted as borderline racist! What a Wallay!

It is so refreshing to be able to post on this blog and expect reasonable debate rather than negative feedback as experienced elsewhere. It is blatantly obvious to me that those who always seem to be on the defensive are incapable of actually reading posts with any degree of accuracy - how then can we expect them to have read the files with any dilligence. For example.... both viv and I have been more or less accused of believing the Tanner sighting purely because we oppose the Smith sighting. Now where is the logic in that? There are many instances to prove my point but of course this is not the place for discussing others shortcomings - at least within reason! I can't resist occassional irony!

viv..... your point about Gordon Brown I think is spot on. He does have a tendancy to interfer with issues where he should keep his distance. I recall Beckham being invited to No. 10 to discuss the promotion of a sporting event when the countries economy was on the brink of collapse. In my opinion it is not the function of a PM to become personally involved with citizens but it's votes that count!

S.B. said...

Whoops!...... I have only just managed to log-on to Morais blog since posting my response to walla Dubliner. The doubting of the Smith sighting seems to have caused quite a stir although I find it difficult to understand how so many can be sure of Mr Smiths credibility. Anything contained within the case files known to us is word of mouth from the Smiths and in that respect does not differ from that of the Mccanns - and we all no how reliable they are! So unless the Smiths be known personally how can anybody be convinced that they are 100% legitimate, especially bearing in mind the strange circumstances of their apparent involvement.

Nor can I understand how my reference to "the Irish fraternity" can be interpreted as borderline racist! What a Wallay!

It is so refreshing to be able to post on this blog and expect reasonable debate rather than negative feedback as experienced elsewhere. It is blatantly obvious to me that those who always seem to be on the defensive are incapable of actually reading posts with any degree of accuracy - how then can we expect them to have read the files with any dilligence. For example.... both viv and I have been more or less accused of believing the Tanner sighting purely because we oppose the Smith sighting. Now where is the logic in that? There are many instances to prove my point but of course this is not the place for discussing others shortcomings - at least within reason! I can't resist occassional irony!

viv..... your point about Gordon Brown I think is spot on. He does have a tendancy to interfer with issues where he should keep his distance. I recall Beckham being invited to No. 10 to discuss the promotion of a sporting event when the countries economy was on the brink of collapse. In my opinion it is not the function of a PM to become personally involved with citizens but it's votes that count!

viv said...

Hiya again SB

Walla Dubliner, I think that has stuck now, when the cap fits so well, it simply must be worn!

I continue to find some of the comments on there quite extradordinary. It makes you wonder if some are practising for writing a macabre fantasy novel, do they just get carried away when writing their posts and lose all sight of the facts, or what we know of them. It would certainly seem that way. In order to be a popular poster you must repeatedly refer to Madeleine's corpse and if you can drop a few more shocking fantasy items in like apparent "acid beds in Huelv" so much the better. Have people really lost sight of the fact this is a little girl they are talking about. I cannot understand why year in year out we need to see such perverted comments that do not even stand up to possibility or reasonable scrutiny.

The Smith sighting on the other hand, is just blindly accepted. People are apparently shocked that you or I could even question it, it spoils their vision of Gerry floating around PDL carrying his dead daughter (she really has to be dead and one only carries a dead child in that way, you know). They never stop to consider just how utterly ridiculous this sounds. What on earth would a scheming and intelligent person like Gerry be doing that for!

They never stop to think that this is just a talking shop, all of the odd things about this particular witness, not least his penchant for chatting away to the Daily Mail etc. Does that not give them the slightest clue this has just been McCanned?

These people are either lacking the ability to think in a rational and normal way or are just plain spinners or they just enjoy sick blogging. A combination of all three I suspect. Some posters are clearly just hyping up the others to think up even more extraordinary theories for something that has so obviously just been created by Gerry McCann. Did he borrow someone else's child and start walking around with it as some sort of diversion fully intending to be "seen"!? Sometimes I can hardly believe I am reading it!

Di said...


Gerry oversteps the mark and doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. I couldn't agree more. Gerry comes across as extremely unable to control his emotions and possibly a control freak.

The Smith sighting coming to light after 4 months does seem odd I agree, but ties in nicely with Jane Tanner and the continual changing of the abductor, from egg head carrying a bundle to a face carrying Madeleine.

The fact Gerry & Kate have ties to Ireland, Donegal in fact, I assume has nothing to do with a cover up. We can but dream!

Brian Kennedy interviewing witnesses. This I have always found unbelievable, why did LP not put a stop to it. Or PJ for that matter as it was happening there as well.

viv said...

Hiya again, I think your comment about the Irish fraternity had absolutely nothing to do with racism, the suggestion has to be seen in context. These people are quite obviously the same old people we have been listening to hyping up trouble for the last three years.

They are people that are suitable for the job because they are abusive and unpleasant. The sort of people that have inbuilt prejudices about just about anything they perceive as being "different" to them and their own ideals. In the early days on this blog I was clearly pointing out on here just what a racist thug "Rosiepops" is. They like to be racists but do not want to wear the label, and so when they see someone who thinks as I do, you are another target for transferring their own feelings about themselves onto. No matter how petty and wrong, they avidly scan your text looking for something unpleasant to say about it. It is what "Rosiepops" and Co tutor them to do IMO. Go forth and cause as much trouble as you possibly can, ask Viv, SB etc some stupid question, i.e. I think you dissed the dogs....then spout off some utter rubbish and suggest that is actually what you said. But they want your opinion! They could just go and read Grime's report, but that would be a sensible thing to do, that is not what they are about.

Di said...

Hi Viv

You have summed it up very well. x

viv said...

Hiya Di too and good to see you!

That is the problem Gerry is faced with, his personality. It is such a strong one that he finds it almost impossible when under stress to cover it up. He has a very big ego and when it takes a knock, it reacts with pure rage.

He sits for hours, days, weeks, plotting, scheming,planning. He convinced himself this action against Goncalo just could not go wrong, because there is no evidence they killed Madeleine. That is an example of the most extreme distorted thinking. Whatever he did with Madeleine, you cannot apply his style of rigid thinking too it, or make it just a legalistic issue, but Gerry just cannot see that. To him it is all black and white. No shades of grey, his simple logic, there is no legal evidence to prove we killed her so I just just have to win. Winning to him is so important, amassing a huge amount of money is terribly important. In the mind of a control freak that gives them what really turns them on, or so they think, power and control.

When he is on one of his fantasy trips, he is like a blinkered horse, he never can see there are serious consequences to his actions. The Police are studying him and watching his every move and so are the public. We all know that he is playing a satanic game.

Di said...

Hi Viv

Yep, that sounds just like our Gerry.

Off now, nite all.

S.B. said...

I'm seeing double - how did I manage to post twice?

Viv..... I realise my error. Of course I know that Madeleine vanished 6 days before the Smiths scheduled departure - and here I am accusing others of not reading things properly! It was merely a slip of the keyboard, I really must edit before submitting. Not a very good start to my initiation.

Wizard said...

Morning Viv,

Just had a quick read back and you have had me reaching for the English and French dictionary this morning.

Walla – is a derivative from the French “don’t you know”? I always thought walla was from Hindi? Any chance of a further explanation I’m completely lost on this one.

Wizard said...

Hi All,

I’m just throwing in my thoughts on the Smith’s sighting. As already said he did not make his claim he saw GM until months after M went missing. Supposedly this was because when watching later on TV he saw GM coming down the steps of a plane holding one of the twins and it was in an identical way to the man he and his family saw that night, thus he put two and two together.

I think this takes an awful jump of faith to believe. I’m inclined to think he, like Tanner, did see someone carrying a child who could have been anyone. His timing although is probably more accurate than Tanners, but like hers of no importance. Of course this sighting does give an alibi to Gerry who was apparently sitting at the Tapis bar at the time. (If you can believe anything the T9 say!)

This case has been, for me, a lesson in human behaviour highlighting how people given an opportunity of a few minutes of fame jump out of the woodwork and we have certainly seen many such examples of this.

I am still convinced the explanation of M’s disappearance is very simple and the problem has been wealthy businessmen jumping onto the bandwagon and paying for expensive lawyers and PR people who have completely muddied the waters of what otherwise might have been a straightforward case (Or am I dreaming).

The T9 who appear to lie could be doing nothing more than covering their own backs after deciding to leave their children alone while they went out of the razz with friend. This again causes further confusion.

I think what draws us to this case is it is a mystery and speculatively all things are possible. Who is to say who is right or wrong – well only the McCanns and they will most certainly not be telling us.

Just as an aside here every time I see the McCanns on TV Shaggy’s hit song of some years back “It wasn’t me” runs through my head LOL.

viv said...

Hello Wiz

And Walla comes from a post to me from "A.Dubliner", one of the less than bright McCann trolls who was presumably meaning to say "eh voila". So no translation books required, lol!

In relation to your main post, no I am afraid this case is not as simple as you think, in fact it is horrific IMO.

There has been a very concerted campaign to persuade me (including by certain contributors to this blog) and everyone else that Goncalo Amaral's verion of what took place is correct. But people should think about him writing he wanted to get the Smiths back and promptly being removed from the case, his friend Almeida also.

Whilst I think it is highly likely Jane Tanner did see Mr Carpenter, I do not believe the Smiths saw anything at all.

viv said...

or even et voila, now they have got me at it!

viv said...

I think you need to address that vital question, just why would those wealthy businessmen pay for the McCanns "expenses", Wiz. x

viv said...

Di, you said: "Brian Kennedy interviewing witnesses. This I have always found unbelievable, why did LP not put a stop to it. Or PJ for that matter as it was happening there as well."

Maybe the police are very keen to know which particular "witnesses" he chooses to interview.

viv said...

When he was discharged, the former investigator of the Maddie Case was preparing to hear an Irishman, who was considered to be a very relevant witness. But the present investigators don't give him credibility

The statements from the Irish citizen who is considered to be a key witness in the Maddie case by Gonçalo Amaral, the man who lead the entire investigation, were not considered to be relevant by the investigators from the Polícia Judiciária who presently hold the process.

Wizard said...

LOL Viv – voilá = walla

Yes why indeed is Brian Kennedy still hanging around – that is a conundrum that needs to be unravelled.

Di said...

Hi all

Dare I say before 3A's went down Brian Kennedy's son Patrick was brought into the equation. If you all remember it caused an absolute uproar.

Didn't Carter Ruck also threaten Tony Bennett to remove Patrick's name from his website, or am I mistaken?

hope4truth said...

Hello All

Di diddnt Carter Ruck threaten to sue anyone who did not sing from the McCann Hymm sheet word for word LOL ????

Di said...

Just thinking outside the box for a moment.

What if this was all a scam and pre-planned.

Madeleine was being abducted but hidden with a family member or a friend, so Madeleine is perfectly happy. McCann's have printed pictures etc of a very young Madeleine so not easily findable., and create the fund.

Viv, it is what you said about Madeleine being made a ward of court and they tried to overturn it.

What if they were hoping to get the ward of court overturned and then find Madeleine and have her home safely. End of scam and very much richer.

However, things have not turned out as they planned, Madeleine is still a ward of court and would not be returned to the family, so bringing Madeleine home is not possible.

So the scam has to continue, the difference is Kate & Gerry know Madeleine is in safe hands either with friends or family maybe they even have visited her.

I ramble on sorry but, I hope you all understand what I am trying to get across. Perhaps my brain has gone into overtime Lol.

Di said...


Very true.

I can't remember who posted on 3A's about Brian Kennedy wanting that special moment when he rescues Madeleine with his helicopter.

I also can't understand why anyone, who did not know K & G would pledge their money to support their search for Madeleine for the rest of his life. Odd or what!

Off for a while.

viv said...

Hiya all

Brian Kennedy has systematically interfered in the course of justice by paying for private investigators and often making personal visits to "McCanned" witnesses, rather than proper police ones. It would seem he even attempted to interfere with proper police witnesses, remember the comments of Jez Wilkins, he was concerned about the harassment he had received.

There is the most disconcerting information in the rogatory of the niece of Pamela Fenn (I think it was her cannot recall the name offhand). The police were closely questioning her about a man from Reading who she had arranged to see who had posed as a police officer. She gave him a photofit and he did it on his computer just like a proper police officer, she described him accurately to the police. When she saw the e fit of the man she witnessed stealthily leaving either the McCann or nearby apartment, he had changed it quite dramatically. It was clear the police will be looking this character up!

So it seems Kennedy was paying private investigators and computer experts to find and go and see witnesses, then prepare an e-fit and then change it! Very seriously perverting the course of justice.

He went to see Murat apparently in November 2007, was he instructing him on how if he is a good boy he can claim he was libelled just like the McCanns. I am sure we can all remember that it was not long after that the Daily Express starting having to remove posts and then oh my goodness, they got a writ of Kate and Gerry.

viv said...

Hiya Di

That is the thing, sometimes it is best to just stick to what the proper legal authorities are saying and doing rather than what we can read from bloggers.

Mrs Justice Hogg did overturn their right to have Madeleine returned to them in April 2008 and spoke pretty graphically about her being secreted away from her family who she no doubt loved. Of course children do love their family, even those who suffer terribly in that family. It is quite unrealistic to suggest that such a senior judge is just a liar and part of some barmy conspiracy, she did that because she knew there was a good chance Madeleine was alive and she also knew she is not safe with the McCannn.

I am afraid I do not share your enthusiasm for Madeleine being quite safe and well, other than to say, yes it is possible. But the thing is the McCanns could have arranged a lawful adoption to a family member, I would have thought. There is a very distinct air of serious and organised crime about this I am afraid. Hence SOCA/CEOP.

viv said...

Is anyone else finding their comment is sticking in the comments box but not posting onto the main page?

I am often having to post it again to get it to come up and then often they both pop up, weird!

I notice SB double posted last night and wonder if you had the same problem, is someone picking on us two lol as we are the most dangerous!

viv said...

Tony Bennett, 60 Reasons Madeleine was NOT abducted. That ridiculous leaflet drop in Rothley. Totally McCanned always has been, he is never going to get sued by them! He appears in The Sun, for them!

S.B. said...

Hello again viv.......,

I should very much like to know where you stand with regards to Kate Mccann. Amongst other things you have repeatedly suggested that she is most likely the subject of domestic violence which I agree is a distinct possibility. There is no doubt in my mind that Gerry has a violent, uncontrollable temper which he has demonstrated so often on video footage, so I think him perfectly capable of physical aggression as well as mental torture.

However, laying aside the Oscar winning performances by Kate when faced with the camera, my mind continually reverts back to the photographs of her in the early days following Madeleines disappearance. The smiling, laughing and jaunty walk of a carefree holidaymaker. Jogging, playing tennis as if nothing in the world could disturb her tranquillity.

I disagreed with you on morais blog about this - not I say because I oppose the principal of what you suggest but more because her behavioural pattern does not corroborate the possibility of her being the victim rather than the accomplice. I admit that I have never knowingly come across a victim of domestic violence and of course I realise that such persons are adept at disguising their suffering but still the laughing face haunts me!

It is natural enough for ones opinions to vacillate over the many months, especially after reading and re-reading everything appertaining to the case and then trying to join the pieces together to form a better picture of events. I certainly have a tendency to forget much of what I read so have to revert back to refresh the brain cells so I might well be missing some important point that has led me in the wrong direction. I therefore maintain that Kate is as much responsible for the fate of her daughter as Gerry and consequently I can feel absolutely no compassion for her now or in the future - unless I can be convinced otherwise.

Your clarification would be appreciated........

viv said...

Kate and Gerry McCann outside court in Lisbon yesterday. They are suing Mr Amaral for libel over his allegations that the couple faked Madeleine's death

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250084/How-letter-UK-police-turned-spotlight-Kate-Gerry-McCann.html#comments#ixzz0llfNbKRT

What do people actually think of this comment underneath the picture of Kate and Gerry in the Daily Mail, saying they faked her DEATH,

It does clearly say that!

viv said...

Hiya SB

The first thing I would like to say is that being a victim of domestic violence does not suddenly transform you into a great person or a great mother. True it does make you a victim in one sense of that behaviour by an aggressive and controlling husband but that does not mean you are not complicit in serious offending behaviour yourself.

I have always been frank in admitting that whilst I can read Gerry like a book (he is textbook), Kate is another matter. I have always thought that he is pretty typical intelligent/psychopathic/narcissistic. But with her it appears to be more of a mental health problem. Just occasionally, a couple can come together and they make a really terrible combination, that just may be the case with these two.

I can never be clear in my own mind whether she is so controlled and battered by him that she has almost unwillingly been complicit in serious abuse of Madeleine and effectively goes along with him now because she feels that is her only chance of ever getting Madeleine back or whether it is something even more sinister still. She is just as much a part of this plot as him.

I often lean to the latter view because, and I have stated this many many times on this blog, no matter her apparent mental health problems, she is an educated woman, even if controlled by him and afraid of him, she would know full well where to go and get support. She would also surely know full well that if she levelled with the police she would actually have far more chance of getting Madeleine back. But in that situation, she would also know she is going to prison. Because if you are complicit in the serious abuse and disposal of your daughter and you are an educated doctor, saying you have a violent and controlling husband is probably no answer to your own clear duty to protect your child from serious harm.

hope4truth said...


Would it not be wonderful if they did plan this as a scam (a bit better version of what Karen Mathews tried to pull off)and Maddie is indeed safe somewhere....

I have always found it hard to belive that she could have been taken there to be killed or even given away for permenant adoption. The joy on their faces on her 4th Birthday was just out of place...

I have always belived it was joy because they believed they had got away with it and they could carry on to take care of the twins. Yet if she was dead they would be mourning her death and I could not belive they felt so little for her that they managed to look so joyus...

It must have come as a hell of a shock when they realised she was no longer in their care and I do fear the longer this goes on and the older she gets she will become a liability as she will be able to tell all...

I really dont know anymore ????

viv said...

Just to add a bit more to that, I think that pregnancy rather late in life, suddenly three little children, having to put up with a violent and controlling husband, feelings of resentment towards Madeleine and not bonding well with a little girl who she says cried 18 hours a day could all add up to something absolutely terrible. Perhaps also combined with issues of substance abuse such as alcohol and cocaine.

I do not think the issues with Kate are the least bit simple and would need a very expert psychiatrist to explain.

viv said...

There are degrees of culpability recognised in law and more appropriate to be considered, generally at the sentencing stage by the Judge hearing the case after he has considered reports i.e. psychologists, psychiatrists, and of course probation officers etc.

When you have a situation like this, it is very difficult to state that both are equally responsible, on a basic level that may be true as regards the offence charged if they both took part in it. But there is usually one who is the "controlling mind", I have always thought that was Gerry. So it is not so much a question of excusing Kate, more trying to understand the sort of terrible situations women can get into and become complicit in, when suffering serious mental health problems. It is right to be concerned about Kate and her state of mind, I feel.

viv said...

Hiya Hope

That is the truth, we really do not know. That is why I think it is better to be guided by just two things:

1) Our own common sense and honestly accepting what we feel. The Police were right to make them arguidos in her disappearance and they surely are involved.

2) What proper legal authorities think. CEOP are still looking for Madeleine and feel she may be alive. Mr Menezes the Portuguese Prosecutor says they could have been charged with kidnapping and trafficking Madeleine. Mrs Justice Hogg made Madeleine a Ward in April 2008 and clearly appealed for that "one person" to come forward and tell us where Madeleine may be found. None of this adds up to the authorities believing that Madeleine died in the apartment, that is just a sham!

viv said...

Maybe I should just add to that, Leicester Police very recently confirming they intend to bring to justice "those behind the disappearance of Madeleine McCann".

That is quite obviously her own parents.

viv said...

Whatever (on 3As and a pretty sensible and interesting post, but it still does not explain how Jez Wilkins also failed to see Jane. I do recall that in the rog with Jane the police officer very carefully extracted from her that Gerry was actually looking straight up the road at said "abductor" ! so the possibility that he did see Carpenter but cannot admit that is a good one)

From the same interview: (sorry I'm on a posting roll here)

Q – The PJ discredits Jane Tanner’s testimony. They say that when she saw said man with the child, you [Gerry] were chatting nearby and it was impossible that you hadn’t seen him as well…
Gerry – I didn’t see her because my back was turned to the location where she passed. I was talking to a friend. And there is also the couple with children that saw a man carrying a child with a pyjama that was similar to Madeleine’s, blond hair, the same age.

Perhaps this is why Gerry can't say he saw bundleman. He knows it was Stephen Carpenter (who was crossing more or less to his right) and therefore knows that the child he was carrying was his own daughter, not Madeleine....and if he admits to seeing Jane, he'd be admitting that he knew who the man was JT saw, they did, after all play tennis and chat during that holiday.

viv said...

whatever again, this poster is pretty good!

sorry...me again

and another thing. You'd think, would you not, that Stephen Carpenter would be of great interest to the McCanns, given he was walking up the street right around the time Madeleine was being bundleman'd away and in the exact same direction as bundleman himself. And yet, no. No questions from Kate and Gerry in the rogatory interview, no mention of him in any interview we've seen despite the fact that Gerry and he played tennis for 2 hours or more on the afternoon of Madeleine's disappearance - and he was the man who introduced Gerry to Robert Murat, as a translator. So Gerry knew Stephen Carpenter was a helpful man, a father of a child of similar age to Madeleine, in fact the two girls were in the same creche group and a man who became very involved in the search. Yet Gerry didn't seem to ask him anything. And still doesn't seem to care whether he saw anything or anyone.

viv said...

but then unfortunately we get this, my immediate reaction is WHAT bodily fluids found in the car? Try having a look at the forensic report for God's sake and stop repeating this rubbish, it is sickening!

Come on, you know what roisin meant was that Kate did not deny, or bother to question DNA recovered from bodily fluids that was found in the car.

That is something quite different to what you are trying to assert.

viv said...

In addition to what was mentioned above about how Mr Carpenter said in his rogatory he was not happy about how events had been misrepresented in the media, here is another proper police witness, Jez Wilkins making the same complaint, he says he has "no idea" where the rather precise time of the meeting between him and Gerry came from. Well I think we have a very good idea, it is from Gerry McCann. Awful lot of this manipulation going on, that is for sure, even e-fits of creepy looking men get manipulated by a creep from Reading pretending to be the police, presumably an employee of Mr Brian Kennedy, they certainly do get about! I have a feeling they can turn up anywhere in the UK, but some sharp eyed people do get a terribly good description of them, sometimes even their vehicle:-)))

From the statement of 7 May:

We returned to our apartment. We decided to spend the evening in, watching television. Our son was awake and unable to sleep. I decided to take him for a walk in his pram. I left about 8:15 to 8:30 pm. I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant. As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road

I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you’re on walking duty. I said I was staying in and pros and cons and what to do with the children.

And then from the Rogatory interviews:

Q. Relative to the time I met Gerry McCann on the Thursday night of May 3, 2007;
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.

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