1 Apr 2010

Mexican Maddie type case - Found Dead in Parents Home

 (SEE 18.57 1.4.10 COMMENT BELOW) 
Little girl mysteriously disappears in Mexico (updated)
31 March 2010 | Posted by astro Leave a Comment

But the Mexicans do Justice very quickly, parents and nannys in custody before they even found the body.  Sometimes in Europe we are maybe just a bit too concerned about "suspects human rights".  We all know the McCanns got rid of little Madeleine, but insufficient evidence to arrest and charge, as yet!  Another lovely little girl, just cruelly disposed of and then the parents try to do a McCann, not quite so slick!   Viv xx

by Julio Olvera

Nobody saw nor heard anything. The surveillance cameras of the luxurious apartment building did not register anything out of the ordinary either, in the case of a little four-year-old girl that mysteriously disappeared from her home in Mexico.

The case of Paulette Gebara Farah, a little girl that suffers from speech and motor impairment, immediately referred the local media to that of British girl Madeleine McCann, in a resort in Portugal, in 2007.

Both girls, aged four, disappeared in a strange way; no locks were forced, and no doors were broken; nothing to indicate an act of violence, or anything to indicate the presence of an intruder or an abductor.

The little Mexican girl disappeared in the early morning of Monday, the 22nd of March, from her home in a condominium in Huixquilucan county, an exclusive residential area on the border of the State of Mexico with the Federal District.

Paulette’s parents swiftly addressed the media and used the internet to ask the public for help in finding their little daughter, as part of a broad campaign, after having filed a complaint with the authorities.

Nevertheless, a week later, the case suffered a turnaround as a judge authorised the General Attorney’s Office of the State of Mexico (PGJEM) to preventively arrest Mauricio Gebara and his wife, Liseth Farah, as well as two nannies.

This was due to the fact that the child’s parents and the nannies were the last persons that had contact with the child, and because they offered different and contradictory versions in their statements.

Each one of these people “has falsified their statement”, Mexican prosecutor Alberto Bazbaz told the press on the day before.

“At this moment, we can say that derived from the extensive investigations, we are able to determine that at least the four adults that were inside the house, offered different and contradictory versions on different occasions, and therefore there are inconsistencies that drive us to make a deeper analysis of the facts”, he said.

According to versions by the little girl’s parents, on the night of Sunday, the 21st of March, Mauricio Gebara handed Paulette and her seven-year-old sister over to his wife Lisette Farah, at the entrance to the Porto Vita 2 condominium in Interlomas, west of the Mexican capital.

The father and the two girls were returning home, after a weekend trip to Valle de Bravo, State of Mexico.

In her statement, Mrs Farah asserted that, once inside her apartment, she led the two girls to their bedroom to put them to bed; nonetheless, the next morning, one of the nannies, upon arriving at the house, noticed that Paulette was not in her bed.

When faced with this situation, according to the versions, the nanny alerted the little girl’s parents, who started a search over the entire house and the building, where they found no trace of her.

According to the police, there are no images to confirm that the little girl was in the building between the evening of Sunday the 21st and the early morning of the 22nd; the building has surveillance cameras located on all entrances, restricted access to the parking area and 24-hour surveillance.

source: Hora Cero, 31.03.2010

Update: Paulette's body has been found inside her family's home. The child's parents and two nannies remain in preventive custody. Investigations are ongoing.

Further comparisons between the case of Paulette and that of Madeleine can be read on CNN Mexico. Curiously, the article ends by stating that the McCann couple asked for the reopening of the process of their daughter's disappearance - something that apparently has yet to happen.


viv said...

Some comments off CNN, to those of us who have been following the Maddie case, this is going to sound all too depressingly familiar. No emotion, press conferences, internet, flyers all over the place. Then they find the child in her bedroom, it is going to be interesting to find out how she suddenly appeared there, after 10 days? How did the police miss the body?
rioux (not verified)
at 03:53 on March 31st, 2010

She had down syndrome and the parents have tons of money how else would they get all the publicity, you should see the city is covered in flyers of all sizes and coulours. The parents have money, the girl had two or more babysitters. this is just gonna turn out to be the parent's fault.

marisela (not verified)
at 14:18 on March 31st, 2010

parents? r they really parents?, they not even shown any tears or any other sign of been sad of their daughters disappear.

motherof 2 (not verified)
at 17:21 on March 31st, 2010

I don't want to jump into conclusions but I think the parents had something to do with it you can see in the interviews that they don't show any remorse or sadness in their face. they both gave different versions of what happened that day, there were no fingerprints found, no one forced their way in, camaras don't show any one suspiscious, and 10 days later don't you think they would of noticed some kind of putrid smell? But in Mexico sadly money talks and since they're rich more than likely this case is going to be inconclusive unless people do something about it.
evelin vega (not verified)
at 07:10 on March 31st, 2010

I just herd that the girl was found death in her bedroom .If that happened to be truth that her parents,or the maids murder her.....probably she has been all her life abuse by them . Its all gradually, verbal abuse then domestic violence and finally murder.

viv said...

OMG, I see...well not really how they could have taken any time at all to make this grim discovery..

Paulette Gebara Farah, 4, Found Dead in Parents' Mexico City Apt

Paulette Gebara Farah´s Parents in Custody

According to information given by state police authorities, 4-year-old Paulette Gebara Farah was found dead in the Mexico City apartment where she lived with her parents. The body was hidden in a plastic bag between the mattress and the base of Paulette´s bed.

Paulette Gebara's parents, Mauricio Gebara and Lisette Farah, said they put her to bed Sunday night and she was missing Monday morning. They are in temporary custody after investigators found inconsistent elements of their statements. At least 30 agents had been assigned to find Paulette Gebara Farah.

Paulette couldn´t talk, and needed the assistance of an adult to walk and move. The Farahs lived in a secured residential building and as yet there is no clear cause of death, but foul play is suspected.

viv said...

If only inconsistencies in statements allowed Portuguese or British under either legal procedure which are similar due to overarching effects of European Convention on Human Rights to both countries, to just place people in temporary custody! We know where the McCanns would be.

viv said...

The similarities to the McCann case are just horrific, the mother saying she put the child to bed, the posters of the child in her "Princess dress". We have seen distraught little Maddie, biting her lip in her Snow White outfit and heard her father describe her as a litttle Princess, it does not change the reality for either of these poor little four year olds. They were not wanted.


'Mexican missing girl asphyxiated, mother suspected'
… By GLORIA PEREZ, Associated Press Writer Gloria Perez, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 3 mins ago

'TOLUCA, Mexico – A disabled 4-year-old girl whose disappearance became the talk of the capital region was found dead in her own bedroom more than a week later. Prosecutors said Wednesday the girl had been asphyxiated and her mother is a suspect.

The shocking discovery of the lifeless Paulette Gebara Farah under the mattress of her bed at her wealthy parents' apartment late Tuesday left prosecutors struggling to explain how multiple searches could have been conducted without the body being found.

Investigators weren't even looking for the girl in the apartment on the outskirts of Mexico City when they found her body, but were searching for suitcases or other family possessions that might have been missing or moved.

"There was a presence of odors," Mexico State Attorney General Alberto Bazbaz said.

Still, Bazbaz also said he had talked with the mother in the bedroom where the body was found but had not detected anything. His comment suggested the grisly possibility that the mother, a lawyer, had spoken with authorities and journalists while sitting on the same bed under which they body was found.

Since the girl was reported missing March 22 by her parents, the family and supporters had scattered images of the girl wearing a princess dress on billboards and flyers across Mexico City, riveting people's attention in a region where occasional reports of child stealing have created dread among many parents.

The girl had difficulties walking and talking due to an unspecified disability.

Bazbaz said prosecutors initially assumed they were dealing with a case in which the girl had somehow been taken from the luxury apartment building. But he said they became suspicious of the mother, Lisette Farah, after she was overheard telling her other daughter not to talk because the family might be blamed for the disappearance.

Lisette Farah, her husband, Mauricio Gebara, and two nannies had been put under a form of house arrest for questioning Monday, after authorities said they detected contradictions in their statements to police.

Authorities said Monday that the four were not suspects. They were being held at a hotel in Toluca and were not available to comment on the prosecutors' statement Wednesday.

It was unclear whether the spot where the body was found wrapped in sheets was where the girl died, or whether the body had been moved, authorities said.

While the results of an autopsy are pending, Bazbaz said the death was caused by "asphyxiation by suffocation," but no other signs of violence were immediately found.

"This is an investigation of a homicide case," he said.

The family lives in an upscale suburb of Mexico City located in Mexico State, which borders the capital.

In previous television interviews, the mother said she had put Paulette to bed in her bedroom the night of March 21. The next morning, one of her nannies reported Paulette wasn't in her room, and investigators found no signs of forced entry to the apartment.

Farah pleaded for her daughter's return at a news conference held outside the apartment building Sunday night.

"Please, I'm desperate. Half of my heart has been taken," she said.

Di said...

Hi Viv

You are right there are many similarities between Paulette's case and that of Madeleine.

Well done to the police for immediately putting them under house arrest, or in their case hotel arrest. Let's hope the parents don't try to pin the blame on the nannies, although it would appear all four are giving conflicting statements. I hope it won't be long before there is an outcome and person responsible will be charged.

I still feel that when Kate McCann was being grilled by the PJ, if the British Ambassador had not stepped in and stopped the questioning, we would have seen justice for Madeleine.

Another sad case today of the 6 year old girl stripped and sexually abused by her classmates in the playground, she cried for help and nobody came This went on everyday for months. Where were all the teachers? I thought children had to be supervised these days. Nothing is going to happen as all the children were the same age.

viv said...

Hiya Di

I would imagine that police force's all over the world have taken on board some learning from the McCann case. That surely has to be, do not let the parents start interfering with the investigation by instructing the press and their own investigators. Putting this lot in a hotel and shutting them up and preventing them from conspiring with anyone else was such a good idea.

But I do not think this was a premeditated crime against the child, it looks more like the case of a female lawyer who just could not put up with her disabled little girl any longer. It is hard to say at this stage of course, but that is the way it currently looks to me.

There does not seem to have been any serious plot to try and get away with this, given where they hid the body.

I would imagine the nannies are probably innocent, but we will have to wait and see. It seems a bit pat, they were left to note the child was missing!

I do not really know about what the British Ambassador did, but suspects do have a legal right to refuse to answer police questions. She was obviously adamant that is what she was going to do for fear of incriminating herself. The police hope that is what suspects will do when they are interviewed but if they refuse to, the police have to look elsewhere for the evidence. The McCanns have been sinister and very organised. Including of course having two copies of two old pictures with them to hand to the police. That demonstrated premeditation and was not very clever at all. Murder means a life sentence.

viv said...

Di, have you seen this on TTT4's site? Were the McCanns paying for her advice to find out what she knew and what the attitude of British authorities was to them? Does this explain another exit from the government? Just how many people did the McCanns buy with their Fraudulent Fund and very wealthy mates as they determined to pervert the course of justice? It just gets worse! Paid bloggers pretending to be Anti McCanns to see what they can find out and then spin some lies for the McCanns is not the half of it. What sort of mind does Gerry have to mastermind all of this?

PR Week UK, 20 June 2007, 6:00pm

Be the first to comment

Former Government comms chief and ex-Mirror journalist Sheree Dodd has taken back the role of advising the family of missing toddler Madeleine McCann, while a permanent campaign manager is sought.

As the 50th day after Madeleine McCann’s abduction approaches, Dodd has stepped back in to advise the family temporarily following Clarence Mitchell’s return to the UK (PRWeek, 25 May).

Mitchell – a former BBC journalist – was sent out on behalf of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. A permanent campaign manager is to be appointed by the beginning of next week, according to Dodd.

Her expenses are being met by the McCann family. Madeleine disappeared from the family’s apartment in Portugal on May 3.

viv said...

I suppose we have to be careful because this is a report in "PR Week" so anything could be spun in there, but their latest poll is encouraging.

Do you think Journalists/bloggers should be able to name and shame persistent PR professionals?

57% say yes and this is on a place that clearly supports them!

No prizes for what my vote was!


Pleased to say I was naming and shaming Mitchell's little mate, Tony Bent a couple of years ago, lol!

viv said...

Sorry Tony that was a disrespectful piece of misspelling I meant

Anthony Bennett, listed by the Law Society as being bent xx

viv said...

Oh dear the McCanns are not going to like this report in CNN, they state the hypothesis is kidnapping and murder. That does make a lot of sense, remove her from the apartment early in the evening.., nasty Kate was not allowing her or the twins out to play that night. Other things planned.

(CNNMéxico) - Paulette Farah Gebara disappeared on 22 March. . His parents, Mauricio Farah Gebara and Lisette, said his daughter cooed Sunday night and Monday morning, just was not there.
Thus began a media campaign to find Paulette. A week later, the Attorney General of the State of Mexico reported that parents would be seated contradictions in their statements.

Finally, on Wednesday confirmed that Paulette's body was found in his room, "a crack between the bed base and mattress."
Paulette's case recalls that of Madeleine McCann, British girl missing in Portugal.

Maddie, as it was known throughout the world, disappeared on May 3, 2007, in a hotel in Praia da Luz, where his family rented a vacation apartment.

Madeleine McCann so far has not been found and it is unknown whether this was a kidnapping or died. Kate and Gerry McCann, parents of the girl, were suspected of the death of the child, but never able to prove his guilt. Here is a chronology of the case:
"The girl slept with her two brothers the last time her parents saw the night of May 3 Maddie was not in his room.

"As in the case of Paulette, there were no signs of violence in the department, and in the first search around, there was no one single track.

In August 2007, police found traces of blood of a dead person in the apartment where Maddie died.

"A month later, Madeleine's parents left Portugal for the first time and denied involvement in the disappearance of her daughter. They announced that they would continue with the search for the girl, but return to their normal life with her twins.

. "Police in Portugal said the McCanns as suspects in Madeleine's accidental death in September 2007.
"British media reported that the blood found in the trunk of the car McCann was" one hundred percent "of Madeleine.

While the parents were investigated by the police, began circulating in various media a photograph of a girl resembling Maddie was in Morocco, but authorities refused to treat her.

-"In October 2007 the parents of Maddie were harshly criticized by the press to pay the mortgage on your home with the Madeleine Fund, to find the girl.

"In July 2008, the McCanns were cleared by the Portuguese prosecutors and received compensation of 600,000 euros British media accused them of killing Maddie.

"This year, the Portuguese police closed the case. Hypothesis was kidnapping and murder, but nothing was found."In 2009, Gonçalo Amaral, the lusa police inspector who investigated the disappearance of Madeleine published a book on the case. . The text accused the McCanns simulating a kidnapping to hide the corpse of the child.

"The inspector McCann sued for libel.

"In February 2010, Madeleine's parents asked to reopen the trial for the disappearance of her daughter.

viv said...

So in the early evening when the McCanns were getting rid of poor little Maddie who was babysitting the twins? Fiona Payne perhaps?

viv said...

Is that why Dianne Webster was asked on that holiday, so that Fiona could look after the twins whilst Dianne looked after Fiona's kids?

viv said...

Maybe it went something like this.

The McCanns cannot go to the beach that day with the others they are getting rid of Madeleine. Gerry has to set up a tennis theme.

Instead of letting the children play around the tennis area the children are got ready for bed very early that night. Payne finally admits he saw Kate and Gerry in the apartment with the children at 5 pm. Fiona finally says she returned to the McCanns apartment at 7 pm with Kate. See email DC Marshall and Ricardo Paiva October 2007 the police had by that stage worked out pretty exactly what happened. They are just ignoring Jane Tanner's and the Smith families sightings because they are just pure rubbish created by Gerry to stage the possibility of an abduction whilst they were at the TAPAS leaving them with the door open when the reality is Madeleine had long since gone from that apartment.

She was laid on the bed leaving the impression of her little body there but otherwise leaving the bed completely undisturbed. Sick Gerry tell us that at 9.05 he looked down on her and thought how beautiful she is,no need to cover her it was a warm night. But all the evidence tells us that actually it was a very cold night, in fact a terrible night for poor little Madeleine.

Having drugged her and the twins so they cannot see what is going on, how to take her back out of the apartment without anyone seeing? The tennis theme for the evening, the blue tennis bag.

When PJ and Brit cops lined the vehicles up to see if the dogs could smell blood or death there was a vehicle included thought to have been used by Russell O'Brien. Did Maddie get loaded into that vehicle in the blue tennis bag? Who would have noticed or seen anything suspicious when they were all supposedly playing tennis? Was this around 6.30 when we can see the men left the Paraiso restaurant?

If Maddie was bundled off in that way alive, there would be no smell of death in the blue tennis bag or the vehicle thought to have been used by Russell. But of course she could have been driven off to then be murdered or worse.

When Gerry went back home on one of his numerous little business visits, did he get himself some cadaver smell from the hospital where he works to lead the police on another false trail? I think so. He was very cocky with Ricardo Paiva, you will find no evidence of us killing Madeleine. He was certain. Now he hates Ricardo Paiva, work it out from there!

Di said...

Hi Viv

It will be interesting to see which way the case of Paulette goes.

As someone has said on JM Paulette's mother is a lawyer and wealthy and wealth over there counts. Will Paulette see justice, I very much hope so. I would hate to think the parents wealth was like the McCanns fund and everything was brushed under the carpet so to speak.

I am not here for long Viv but will catch up tomorrow.

I am very envious of Hope, who I am sure is now in warm weather. We in Cheshire have had rain, snow, hail and sleet and that was in the space of two hours.

I will keep quiet now or the climate change police will be charging me for the privilege.

Di said...

Hi Viv

The blue tennis bag.

I have always thought, if Gerry as has been said, took a blue tennis bag to Potugal there has to be cctv footage at the airport, not to mention said amount of bags being checked in.

When going abraod on holiday about 10 years ago, our son took his guitar. To cut a long story short it vanished and we had a fight on our hands when returning home.

It did turn up two weeks later due to cctv and they knew we had checked the guitar in.

Perhaps the PJ know K & G did check in a blue sports bag and they have evidence, or perhaps someone saw Gerry using it when he had his tennis lessons. Either way the PJ seem to be convinced Gerry had a blue tennis bag.

viv said...

hiya Di

I have to confess to always being rather dismissive about the blue tennis bag because I always reasoned if her body had been carried off in that, there would be forensic evidence of that and of course Eddie would have loved the smell of it.

But as you say, the police are convinced this is relevant and what I am now suggesting could well explain matters better. The PJ asked Kate to explain what was in her wardrobe, including that bag, needless to say, she did not want to comment.

I would imagine a canvass bag like that would foldup and fit quite easily into a suitcase, probably along with the rest of the kit Gerry needed to pack, like those two copies of old 6 x 4 photos. Alternatively, it could have been bought in PDL or the surrounding area (Lagos), but that would be dodgy, more likely had it anyway. He clearly did have one and he has denied it, just like he denied those text messages. Something clearly relevant there, eh, Gerry!

If memory serves the PJ have a picture of it in the wardrobe. I will check that out.

I too am envious of Hope, what a fantastic place to be for Easter, instead of stuck in the freezing cold as we are, but I suppose I had my big dose of lovely heat in Feb, cannot do it all the time!


viv said...

There is a lot of spin going on about the Smith sighting and the
GASPAR statement at the moment. Trusty Bren has it here on 3 As, one under the other, the Smith sighting is absolutely a fact and the GASPAR statement is lies, erm apparently, ho hum Bren, still not exactly trusting you lady, or your valuable "sources" !

Spin for the McCanns, abuse the McCanns/write your most gory thoughts on exactly how Maddie died, you can do it all here:


The Smith Sighting - Textusa

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Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:46 pm

charles View the latest post
No new posts What 'LIES' behind the Gaspar Statement?

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Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:31 pm

the-truthseeker View the latest post

viv said...

Gerry and Kate are just too certain they can sue Goncalo for saying Maddie died in the apartment, I have always thought that. They are incredibly sick.

viv said...

It is absolutely fine for "Renoir" to talk about the British Ambassador apparently assisting the McCanns to bring the body back to UK or Madeleine's body being "incinerated" so that it can be brought back, but of course if people want to say what they really think on a forum where you are supposed to be able to discuss this case, in bleeps Bren:

Post subject: Re: What 'LIES' behind the Gaspar Statement?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Local Lag
Local Lag

Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:26 am
Posts: 5
From the post of Truthseeker,snip,
One thing I always found strange that Gerry was shouting from minute one that it was a paedo ring.

It is unbelievable to me that the father of the missing child would voice this straight away.Yes he may think it in the dark reccesses of his mind.He may even voice it to his nearest and dearest,though probably not,so as not to cause them more heartache.But to mouth it to the world is,in my opinion,done for a reason.And the only reason to me is to cover any *********** ********
Sick,absolutely sick for him to verbalize that.

Mod Edit: part comment removed

viv said...

Kate:" I know. I was here. I found my daughter gone. I know more than you do. I know what I saw."
Gerry:"Where is the child? What other explanation can explain how she is not here?"

Recent comments to Portuguese journalists from a stressed Kate and Gerry McCann.

Well just let me explain Gerry...

viv said...

I see my above post has caused "Beachy" on 3 As to post a volte face, from previously suggesting this filthy table talk complete with gestures concerning Maddie was just "horsing around" now this fount of wisdom tells us the GASPARS were doing their duty a 3 year child is missing! Glad to see I re-arranged your morals, "Beachy".

This does confuse:

Post subject: Re: What 'LIES' behind the Gaspar Statement?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:52 am
Trainee Criminal
Trainee Criminal

Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:38 pm
Posts: 189
dear beachy, didn't you say you think the "talk at the table" was just horsing around ? i'm not trying to be combative, i will go re-read, but just thought i would ask you.

viv said...

Gerry McCann's tennis bag 'is focus of inquiry'

By Matthew Moore
Published: 11:24AM GMT 24 Dec 2007

Previous1 of 2 ImagesNext
Kate and Gerry McCann are facing their first Christmas without their four-year-old daughter Madeleine Missing Madeleine McCann
The McCann family has denied claims that a tennis bag allegedly owned by Gerry is the focus of police investigating his daughter Madeleine's disappearance.

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Madeleine McCann: detectives want to interview murder accusedA Sky News report claims that officers have been unable to locate a blue hold-all which Mr McCann allegedly used to carry his sports kit hours before his daughter vanished.

Tony Rogers, a former detective with experience with experience of high-profile murder cases, told the channel: "If it's a bag of a size that could be taking away from the flat a child, that would be of great interest to the investigating officer."

But Clarence Mitchell, the spokesman for Madeleine's parents, dismissed the report, insisting that Gerry had never owned such a bag.

"As far as Kate and Gerry are concerned, there is no missing tennis bag," he said.

"They came back from holiday with everything except of course, tragically, Madeleine."

Gerry and Kate McCann have consistently denied any wrongdoing in connection with their daughter's disappearance.

The Sky News investigation, to be broadcast this evening, also reveals that only one British sex offender with links to the Algarve remains a suspect in the hunt for Madeleine.

All 52 British sex offenders with links to the Portuguese holiday destination have been investigated and only one is understood to remain in the frame.

The documentary comes as Kate and Gerry McCann, both 39, of Rothley, Leics, face their first Christmas without their four-year-old daughter, who went missing in Praia da Luz on May 3.

In the broadcast, Prof David Barclay, a forensic expert, says it is unusual for children of Madeleine's age to be abducted by paedophiles.

viv said...

The blue tennis bag seems to have evolved from a very categoric Martin Brunt that police were looking for this from the outset. If it is not true as Clarence has said on behalf of Kate and Gerry, then I wonder why this story and Sky have not been Carter Rucked?

Given how litigious the McCanns are and what an experienced and pretty sensible reporter Brunt is, I would say it is definitely true. He would not make any claim IMO he cannot back up. Coincidentally Martin Brunt has gently tried to tell bloggers they have got it wrong. But the bloggers do not seem to get the point, he is not saying the McCanns are innocent, just they have got it wrong. Of course he dare not say any more because he could prejudice an ongoing inquiry that is not being run by Portugal now, but Britain and that really does shut him up, or else!

Sky News Exclusive On Madeleine McCann Paedophile Investigation
Share Share
11:41am UK, Wednesday February 27, 2008

Martin Brunt, Crime correspondent

A list of 52 British paedophiles suspected of possible involvement in Madeleine McCann's disappearance has been whittled down to just one, Sky News can exclusively reveal.

Family were on holiday in apartment

British police gave Portuguese detectives the details of 52 UK sex offenders with links to the Algarve, and all but one has now been eliminated.

The private detective employed by Kate and Gerry McCann is also focusing on the possibility that British paedophiles were involved in her abduction, Sky News has learned.

Ever since Madeleine disappeared on May 3, police have been looking for a blue tennis bag that went missing around that time.

The bag - big enough to carry a small child - belonged to her father, Gerry McCann, who had been playing tennis at the complex that afternoon.

Gerry and Kate McCann have always denied any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance, though they remain arguidos, official suspects.

Another twist is the discovery that the McCanns' holiday apartment is owned by another McCann - Ruth McCann, a teacher from Liverpool.

Apparently, she is no relation, but the coincidence is enough to add one more conspiracy theory to the thousands that continue to circulate.

Even now, when I talk to people about Madeleine many cannot understand why Kate and Gerry McCann left her and their two-year-old twins alone while they dined with friends at the nearby tapas bar.

Mr McCann said it was much the same as them dining in their back garden at home, so as part of our new half-hour programme I was filmed walking from the restaurant table to the apartment.

I strolled through the restaurant garden, out onto the road and up the hill.

It was 80 paces just to the apartment gate.

We also rented an apartment that is close to, and is an exact replica of, the McCann holiday home.

We showed, for the first time, the layout inside and illustrate how easily an abductor might have taken Madeleine.

Also in the programme, police experts explained how every explored theory about Madeleine's disappearance is unlikely.

She appears, still, to have vanished into thin air.

viv said...

This is what Brunty actually says, note the sarcastic comment "they think they know about this case". Note, he is not saying the McCanns are innocent as people assume. Why do bloggers actually think they know more than him? That is absurd, I bet he knows this case inside out and what the McCanns did and just cannot wait for the day when he is finally allowed to actually write about it! The only way in which he is defending them here is to say they DID NOT call Sky News before they called the police.

In any event the first news outlet to run the story was The Daily Telegraph at 12.01 am on 4 May 2007, just one hour and 20 minutes after the police were phoned at the instigation of Mat Oldfield, not Kate or Gerry McCann.

It's 1,000 days since Madeleine McCann vanished and even now there are intelligent, sane and rational people, in Portgual and in the UK, who still believe that her parents Gerry and Kate phoned Sky News before they called the police.
They didn't.

Even the Portuguese police know they didn't.

Anyone who believes they did rather blows a hole in other things they think they know about the Madeleine case.

Di said...

Hi Viv

No the McCanns will not like the comments on CNN Mexico, nor the Mexican papers that are also reporting a link in similarities between this case and Madeleine's, and that Madeleine is believed to be dead. I very much doubt though that our papers will follow suit.

It does look as if you are right Viv and Paulettes mother in the main suspect.

Di said...

"In February 2010, Madeleine's parents asked to reopen the trial for the disappearance of her daughter."

Gerry & Kate asked for a review of the case, which is totally different to the case being reopened.

viv said...

hiya Di, I wonder if Paulette had even confessed to her husband what she had done, although he must have had a good idea! High powered professional women do not always make the most compassionate moms, I wonder if she got very frustrated and angry.

In relation to review/re-opening I think either would have suited Gerry provided it could be on his terms. He needs to avoid officers that have already investigated him and know him well.

There is certainly a convention in UK that lawyers never say or do anything without the explicit instructions of their client, so when a lawyer speaks, that is merely expressing the wishes or will of the client. Duarte was attacking Ricardo Paiva also and saying the case should be re-opened. As I have previously pointed out, the only way it would actually be re-opened in Portugal is if the McCanns are innocent and Madeleine's abductor needs to be found and prosecuted by them. When the Portuguese opened their file, rather than keeping it closed they confirmed that IMO. If they had actually intended to pursue Kate and Gerry further they would have kept the file closed. We can see there was always a parallel investigation by UK and it is that one that will lead to their arrest, prosecution and conviction. It is now out of Portugal's hands other than the further co-operation we obviously need from them. IMO, there will be other jurisdictions involved also but obviously not to quite the same extent as Portugal. I think Ricardo will be a feature prosecution witness and I understand he speaks English well. I would not be surprised to see the US, Holland, Spain at the very least also involved in this case. Many McCann bloggers are American. The McCann tentacles and their associates spread their net far and wide, I believe.

viv said...

The Pro McCanns posting on Jo Morais site are amusing, pursuing their little agendas and, as ever, attacking me.

The themes they are wishing to push are "obvious neglect", the McCanns made Madeleine a Ward of Court themselves and Martin Smith is a truthful and honest witness.

Oh and they also wish to know, as ever, who I am, what involvement I have in this case and what my qualifications are!

As ever, grateful to you Pro McCanns for flagging up the vital issues for us all.

viv said...

Oh and another vital McCann theme being pushed, there is, apparently, evidence to confirm that a nanny printed those two copies of two old 6 x 4 pictures of Madeleine. Strange that when reading the PJ files I get the distinct impression they think that nanny is a paid liar. There are a lot of them about, telling us what is really troubling Kate and Gerry McCann.

And as for a government coverup, to protect the McCanns, you are really having a laugh!

viv said...

03/04/2010 12:11
Anonymous said... 11

viv @201, What makes you think and say the Smiths are Gerrys fabrications, Goncalo certainly didnt /doesnt think that.
The Smiths according to Goncalo were the breakthrough in the case and he was in the process of having the Smiths come back to Portugal when he was removed from the case and that ended that(we think).


03/04/2010 12:13
Anonymous said... 13

viv @201,

Re:Madeleine made a ward of court

Is it not the case Madeleine had to be made a ward of court on a legal point in order for the mc canns to obtain files and records from the LP.and not for any other reason.
Stop deliberately trying to distort the facts.
I suspect you are chasing with the hounds and running with the fox .


viv said...

Something worrying you A.Dubliner, both the above posts within a few minutes of each other on J Morais blog?

Would that be the reason a Dubliner keeps coming to this blog, last one timed at 23.37, prior to that 21.18?

It is the case that on 17 May 2007 the McCanns invoked the inherent jurisdiction of the High Court and made applications under the Child Abduction and Custody Act and the Hague Convention seeking the usual orders that if Madeleine were to be found she should be returned to their custody and further seeking ancillary orders that they should be kept informed by the police at the whereabouts of Madeleine. Orders were made granting those requests by a Judge other than Mrs Justice Hogg, who tells us she became involved shortly afterwards.

It is also the case that on 2 April 2008 the McCanns made a further application to the High Court seeking to enforce the terms of the earlier Order they had received as the Chief Constable was refusing to provide them with any information from his file. Of course criminals under investigation are NOT entitled to any information from a police file about them.

It is also the case that Mrs Justice Hogg states that on 2 April 2008 she made Madeleine a Ward of Court and at the end of her Order confirmed that. She points out that the Wardship of Madeleine will stay in place until further order.

It is also the case that Mrs Justice Hogg completely overturned the original Order that had been made, and made it clear that neither the Chief Constable or any other British Agency had to provide any information to Kate and Gerry McCann at all from their files, an agreement having been reached with the McCanns that they would withdraw their application seeking to force that issue and would agree to the return of 81 pieces of information concerning apparent "sighting", that they and their solicitors had handed to LP. In short they were getting their own information back! Presumably on the basis they do not believe the police are properly following up sightings.

Now I suggest "A Dubliner" that given you do not know what you are talking about, but simply like to spin for the McCanns you just shut up.

But please feel free to continue to look in here any time you choose!

viv said...

My posts, that A.Dubliner felt constrained to reply to, very shortly after we were told aacg would not be posting further.

You know what, "Louise", "A.Sensible Person", "aacg" "A.Dubliner", call yourselves what you like, Pro McCanns and their sad posting tactics stick out like a sore thumb.

viv said... 1

188 In fact making Madeleine a Ward of Court on 2 April 2008, following intensive investigations into the McCanns and their abuse of that little girl is just about the most dramatic way British authorities could announce they have taken full note of the way she was treated and that if, by some miracle, she is still alive, there is no way on earth she is going to be returned to Kate and Gerry McCann.

I now believe that Gerry organised the tennis theme that evening for a very specific reason, so that little Maddie could be removed in his blue tennis bag that Martin Brunt tells us the police were always looking for. Those articles on Sky are still there, no Carter Rucking from the McCanns, that tells me one thing, it is the truth. But I think the authorities feel she may have been drugged but still alive when removed during the early evening, probably around 6.30. Tanner and Smith are Gerry fabrications to make out an abduction took place whilst they were supposedly neglecting her. YOu cannot neglect a child that has already gone.
02/04/2010 15:12
viv said... 2

191 I am pleased people have now donated to help Nige keep going, I have always appreciated his tireless efforts to produce such a good site, packed with information !

The press reports etc are vital to understanding this case because that is where Gerry puts out all of his spin. If you look at the chronology in the media, you can see all of his varying little campaigns, all eventually coming to nothing.

The latest one of course being, in conjunction with seeking to rubbish Goncalo/Ricardo/PJ insisting the very same PJ who he has relentlessly abused for investigating him should start investigating his dreams and visions again. That man is pure Narcissist! When they are also criminal you see the most bizarre, spectacular and complex schemes and a resolute determination that by whatever means it takes, they are going to get away with it. But he will not!

viv said...

31/03/2010 19:53
viv said... 165

accg The best I could hope for you is that you just close your eyes to what you do not want to see.

Have a look at Madeleine on the video with her snow white outfit on, biting her lip and looking utterly dejected. My mother was heartbroken when she looked at that. I have never seen anything so sad. Have a look at her being restrained by Kate and her grandmother from even reaching her own birthday cake. Have a look at how the last picture of Madeleine taken the day before on the tennis court just gets ignored in the McCann's campaign, in its stead they prefer an image of her in red dress with tinted red hair and an adult pose, aged about two, it is a good "marketing ploy", no doubt. But to appeal to whom, people who think adults can do children no harm, it gives him comfort says Gerry McCann?

Have a look at the picture of Gerry McCann playing with her the day before he got rid of her, and then trying seeing what other people see. Something that is so horrible it is hard to even contemplate, it is so cold and calculating.

Do not be so certain that the friends have got away with this and only the McCanns are in trouble, you may be in for one big shock!

viv said...

01/04/2010 16:04
viv said... 187


You come here to attack one of the most damaging pieces of evidence of all against Kate and Gerry McCann, immediately producing old photographs to the police. Two copies of each, not twenty copies printed by some nanny. Paying people to lie for you does not change the facts. When you are repeatedly confronted to back up your claims, what do we get, oh well I do not have the time to look!

Your soft backtracking when confronted is something I have been seeing from people like you for the last three years. You claim you did not even know what picture I was referring to of Gerry playing with Madeleine the day before he got rid of her?

WE have the historic pictures that clearly demonstrate Madeleine was not beloved by her parents, the only use they see for those pictures is to go on holiday and stage her abduction.

We have the picture just the day before this staged abduction where Gerry McCann is wanting to show what a loving daddy he supposedly is. You pretend you do not know what I am talking about.

Gerry McCann was just a bit too organised I am afraid and by his meticulous planning of every little detail demonstrates beyond any shadow of a doubt, this was a wicked and premeditated crime against little Maddie.

If I was ever in serious trouble, you are the very last person I would call to help me.

viv said...

So you see, I will continue to do what I have always done, hit hard at Team McCann, their spin and their lies and pursue what I am concerned about, Justice for Maddie and the Twins who most certainly have a right to see this case resolved and be taken from the life of terrible harm their own parents have placed them into.

viv said...

It is also the case that Kate McCann refused to answer 48 questions put to her by Portuguese Police when she was made a formal suspect and she refused to answer every single one of them. On Clarence Mitchell's own admission for fear of incriminating herself!

One of those questions was:

Were you thinking of transferring custody of Madeleine?

Again a question that goes to the heart of the premeditated and wicked conduct of Kate and Gerry McCann in disposing of their own little girl.

But what would a "normal" mom have said to such a question, nothing like Kate, for fear of incriminating herself? I do not think so!

viv said...

Hi T4 thought provoking and interesting thread.


I think it is terrible that the McCanns were allowed to enter the apartment and remove all their stuff. This most certainly should have been a sealed crime scene.

I have always found Murat rather unnerving, there are some odd things about his behaviour. Generally I am willing to say he is completely innocent, the Perfect Patsy, but I do have niggling doubts and concerns. The most obvious being follow the police and what they think. They kept this man an arguido alongside Kate and Gerry for a very long time and it was his odd behaviour that got his collar felt.

If Madeleine was removed from the apartment in the early evening, perhaps at about 7 when Gerry finished his tennis themed evening, in the missing tennis bag, then logic would dictate that he needed someone with a vehicle to drop that bag into. A re-read of what Dianne Webster says and DC Marshall and Ricardo Paiva has really sharpened my views. Gerry was missing when Dianne arrived at the TAPAS at about 8.55, she says. So where was he and what was he doing?

Why did Gerry refuse to comment and look so angry when asked and do you know Robert Murat? He is not a man that is normally stuck for words. But there are occasions when he and Mitchell will use the then "judicial secrecy" or some other pretext to refuse to engage. "I am not prepared to comment". We may assume that is a particularly difficult issue for them. All the issues were difficult for Kate when she was being interviewed as an arguida. Did she "prepare" Madeleine for removal whilst Gerry was playing tennis? All this couple were interested in doing all week was playing tennis, that is a big clue I think.

Why did Gerry delete and refuse to acknowledge 14 texts the day before and 4 on 4 May? The day before clearly demonstrates a premeditated crime, among other things. Why did Robert Murat return on 1 May?

They way you have set this post up causes me to wonder whether he is indeed an accomplice to the removal of Madeleine. It looks as though he is staying close to the McCann apartment so that he can report back to them on police activity. It also looks like his "services" as an interpreter would be terribly useful to Kate and Gerry who always seem to have known far more about this investigation than they should have done.


viv said...

If Kate had actually drugged all three of the children whilst Gerry was playing tennis, then Maddie would be ready for removal, but maybe not dead. It seems clear to me the police were looking at this, kidnapping has always been so much a part of the investigation. People assumed that was looking at kidnapping by a stranger, quite plainly it was not! It was listed on the Appeal Court judgment of Evora as one of the possible crimes the McCanns had committed and for which they were being specifically investigated for.

If Gerry was to go and bundle Maddie into a car with his tennis bag, in his tennis gear, so as not to look suspicious, whose car was it? One of Murat's vehicles or the vehicle thought to have been used by Russell O'Brien? Maybe there was a process of deduction going on using the dogs, those that did not have cadaver odour may have been used to remove Madeleine alive? I believe Gerry planted that cadaver odour to throw the police off the scent, no pun intended. I think people continue to underestimate just how scheming and calculating this man is and I think I seriously underestimated just how evil Kate McCann also is.

Why have the Paynes kept telling lies about when they went to the apartment? When interviewed again we can see from the email exchange of Paiva and Marshall the latest is Fiona went back to the apartment with Kate at 7 pm and the husband arrived, not making clear which one. Payne now says he last saw Maddie at 5 pm. The fact that these two keep on changing those vital times says one thing loud and clear they are seriously involved in what happened to Madeleine. If Kate and Fiona did not get back until 7 and Gerry did not finish playing tennis until 7, who was looking after those angelic children, dressed in white?

At the end of the day, in spite of the trauma the McCanns friends have apparently subjected him to, he has become a millionaire in a very similar way to how they have. I try to keep an open mind with him, but!

viv said...

The other big clue is this couple behaved so oddly on that Thursday. The weather had improved and all the others went down to the beach. But not Kate and Gerry. They had a tennis lesson that finished about 3.45. Then it would seem they pick the children up and Kate decided they are not going out to play by the tennis area, that night, they are too tired. What at 6 in the evening!

By Kate not allowing the children to go out and play again during th early evening she was acting well out of the established routine, that is a big clue I think. A plan was being executed very sadly for poor little Madeleine. It was time for her to go.

viv said...

I see T4 got a predictably rude and offensive post, so he has uncovered something that is causing the Pro McCanns hackles to rise, as I am doing myself! Well done T4, erm we need to stick to the Gerry script or put up with this, no problem! :

Anonymous said...

''There is no suggestion here on this page or any other page of this blog that Robert Murat killed Madeleine McCann, either accidently or otherwise.''

In that case, what is the purpose of this article ?

It's full of inaccuracies which display your ignorance, and pointless and offensive speculation.

As someone else has already mentioned, Murat had offered to help by translating for the McCanns, so he wouldn't be much use to them unless he was fairly close by, would he?

And what are you getting at here ?

''It is possible to identify from the photographic record of the 4th of May 2007 some of the places in Luz that Robert Murat considered as likely places either to find Madeleine McCann or her abductor.''

I find your posts utterly transparent. You do know there is no evidence to connect this man to this crime, don't you ? It's the innuendo I object to - if you are hinting at something, at least have the decency to hint a little louder. Of course, you won't leave this comment up. You never do.
2 April 2010 16:41
Anonymous said...

I am of the opinion that Robert Murat was simply a man who cared about this child and the fact that he remained close to the apartment is not suspicious at all to me. He offered to translate and was needed there. Simple as that, in my opinion.
2 April 2010 21:53

viv said...

You do know there is no evidence to connect this man to this crime, don't you ?

This kind of abrasive arrogance is unmistakable! Who but the police know exactly what the evidence is!

viv said...

or erm ..Kate and Gerry of course.

viv said...

This is what the Pro McCanners are wanting to cover up, "we do not believe that Madeleine disappeared whilst they were at dinner".

I do not believe it either, Gerry is said to have returned from his tennis lesson at 7pm, I think it was then that Madeleine "disappeared". This neglect, these sightings, complete and utter red herrings.

We have been spun over the years completely away from the earlier evening and encouraged to focus on the Smith sighting etc, it is utter rubbish! Martin Smith was excluded from the rogatories for a very good reason, he is not part of the serious investigation into what happened to Madeleine but he will be in big trouble!

Serious police witnesses do not focus in The Daily Mail or have chats with Brian Kennedy, but McCann "witnesses" do, and Mr Martin Smith did. It is no coincidence his "sighting" was leaked to the press or his suggestion it was even Gerry McCann just as he had been made an arguido, just to reinforce this view in people's mind, pscyhological conditioning.

Madeleine: The missing six hours that baffle police
Where was Kate between last photo and arrival at tapas bar?

Last updated at 12:11pm on 21st September 2007

The McCanns are said to be convinced that Ms Tanner saw Madeleine because she described the pyjamas the girl was wearing before being told the description of those worn by Madeleine and they matched.

But the police source said he was unsure of the reliability of the statement. He said: "These are people who spent a lot of time with their friends yet no one saw Madeleine or Kate for much of that day.

"We are very doubtful that Madeleine disappeared when the McCanns were at dinner. It is highly likely she was gone at some point during those six hours we know nothing about. As far as we are concerned Gerry and Kate are suspects in this investigation."

viv said...

It is fair to say that there is still the odd good post made on 3 As, Payne makes vague references to the police as though they know what he is talking about, problems over the last few years, problems at work. Yes we know David, they got so bad you even had to move away from your mate Gerry McCann who has always been most concerned to cover his own back by telling us how it gives him comfort to think of Maddie being repeatedly abused.

Post subject: Re: What 'LIES' behind the Gaspar Statement?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:07 am
Local Lag
Local Lag

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:34 pm
Posts: 25
There are cases when someone is accused of paedophilia but no charges are brought, or the case goes to court but is dismissed for example on the grounds that the child may be thought too young to give evidence or to give evidence may be too distressing for the child. In cases of historical abuse due to the difficulty in proving the abuse if one persons word against another statements can lie on the persons file maybe until other people come forward, if the Police have a few statements naming the same person they can then investigate. All depends on the circumstances.

The clue is there has to be a reason why GM started shouting about paedeophile rings, Why! Was it because if Madeleine was discovered and had found to be abused there would be a lot of explaining to do.

I dont remember hearing Sarah Payne's mum shouting that Sara had been taken by paedophiles, I dont remember any parent of a missing child shouting about paedophiles therefore there HAD tobe a reason why GM did that.

viv said...

A witness told Portuguese Police how he overheard Gerry on his mobile that night, about 11.30, telling his relatives, "Maddie has been abducted by a gang of Portuguese paedophiles".

Too much information Gerry!

viv said...

Moita Flores
The mystery lies with one or two of the ten or twelve elements that used to enter that apartment

I would certainly include David Payne, Gerry McCann and Russell O'Brien in that category and I would also query why Mat Oldfield thinks it appropriate to support these people. He is either "one of them" or just could not stand the scandal/does not think justice for an innocent child and the protection of others is worth the effect on his own reputation. That does not say much for you, does it Mat?

viv said...

Dublin left via joana-morais.blogspot.com from "JUSTICE FOR MADDIE AND THE TWINS"
01:23:48 -- 1 hour 18 mins ago
01:23:35 -- 1 hour 18 mins ago

viv said...

There are posters on 3 As who have worked out what I believe is the sad reality of what was happening to little Maddie on that holiday and why she had to be got rid of.

I applaud those who genuinely want to try and look at the truth of what may have happened to little Madeleine, rather than following some sick agenda to obfuscate and confuse or make someone's version of events the right one in the public mind, regardless of the truth.

She was crying on the Tuesday night, increasingly more distressed, then someone left via the rear patio door and her crying stopped. Poor little angel.


I do think the tennis balls pic is genuine, taken from Kate's camera of Madeleine the day before, having a play tennish lesson via the creche. Maddie has deep purple bags under her eyes, indicative of a child who is not getting proper rest. Strange for a child was always put to bed so early..according to Gerry McCann.

But her arm is bright red/orange, this picture was taken the following day, after that Tuesday night.

There is also a picture of Kate on T4s blog the one where they came out and gave that oh so distressed first interview. The top of Kate's hand is also bright orange.

How did Madeleine's arm, by the Wednesday supposedly get so badly sunburnt given we were told it had been cold and raining etc?

I do not think it did, and I wonder if FAKE SUNTAN cream applied heavily can cover up bruising. Had someone been grabbing little Maddie's arm the night before this picture was taken in which she even seems to be standing in an uncomfortable pose.

viv said...

Given such posts have a habit of disappearing on Brens and Missing Madeleine, I thought I would save them. I do not agree that it was Kate making Maddie cry that night, although god forbid it is possible, she clearly knew what was going on. I think it was Russell, Gerry or Payne.

Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:44 am

Local Lag

Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:13 pm
Posts: 42 So I can only conclude it wasn't any normal kind of accident and that at least some of the friends had reason to fear the truth being known. [Quote = kitty]
I agree with you kitty. It has been said in the past that Gerry McCann was going be a character witness in a court case involving one of the group ( it MIGHT be Oldfield who had been charged with neglect - but I'm not absolutely certain). This would explain why HE was prepared to stick his neck out for the McCanns, but there appears to be no reason for the others to join in as, apparently, they weren't even that friendly. I am convinced it all boils down to them being petrified of what a post mortem would reveal if Madeleine's body was ever found. This could, of course, have been that following a genuine accident they had tried to resuscitate her and failed - but, if they weren't involved in any other way with her death, why would they not insist on calling an ambulance. Try as I might I keep coming back to the theory that she had been sexually abused by more than one of the group and this is the secret they are all keeping. I may be wrongly judging them but, if I am, I'm not in the least bit sorry. If they don't want speculation about them to be rife all they need to do is tell the truth.


HiDeHo Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:00 pm

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:07 pm
Posts: 127 beachy wrote:
HiDeHo, I don't know if it was Maddie or one of the twins, but I do believe Mrs Fenn when she says she heard a child crying for an hour and 15 minutes on the Tuesday, and that said child stopped crying shortly after she heard the patio door being opened and closed.

There was a child crying with intensity that night and its always been something I have trouble getting my head around

How 'hurt' would a child have to be to cry increasingly over an hour and a quarter?

If it was Madeleine, the other children were not crying. Sedated? Not in the apartment?

What is most troubling to me is that children CAN cry for that amount of time when someone is present, particularly when the person present is contributing to the reason for the crying.

Was she in dreadful pain? (I pray she wasn't)

Did the door open BEFORE she stopped crying...or..

Did she abruptly stop crying and someone left after......

Kate made a couple of phone calls minutes prior to Mrs Fenn hearing the crying.

Was Kate at the tapas or was she in the apartment.

Was the crying because of emotional anger, scared or because of pain?

It seems (according to the dogs and the police files) that someone died in that apartment, very probably Madeleine, and that night certainly is questionable about a childs welfare, followed by a flurry of mobile calls early the next morning and the cleaner mentioning about a cot in the parent's bedroom.

I find it possible, maybe even probable, that there was one child in that apartment, Madeleine, and the twins were elsewhere (ROB was not present at the tapas) and maybe Madeleine was kept in the cot in the parents bedroom overnight.

What troubles me is that if the crying stopped abruptly and the door was opened AFTERWARDS...

We don't know that though...

viv said...


Bobsy Post subject: Re: Why are we giving the McCanns what they want???Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:15 pm

Local Lag

Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:26 am
Posts: 24 The crying lasted for one hour and fifteen minutes and grew in intensity according to Mrs Fenn. And then suddenly stopped and the stopping was at the same time as the patio door opening and closing.So if it was someone returning they would have heard the crying as the intensity had built by that time yet no mention of this in any statements.
If it was happening whilst someone was in the apartment and ceased when they opened and closed the door to leave then this abrupt cessation for me rings alarm bells.
If a returning parent and comfort then the crying would gradually subside as the child was comforted and calmed,but there would still be little whines and tearful words being spoken to the comforter.
After having comforted children crying/screaming with discomfort and fear I know it doesn't just cease.There is a period afterwards when the child will still cry,even build up to full intensity before quietness.
I am of the opinion that this crying is linked to the demise of Madeleine.


Rincewind Post subject: Re: Why are we giving the McCanns what they want???Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:20 pm

Local Lag

Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:28 am
Posts: 34 Oh dear. I had always assumed that the children had woken, found they were alone and then stopped crying when a parent returned. I hadn't thought that maybe they stopped crying when someone left... Poor little girl.


Stella Post subject: Re: Why are we giving the McCanns what they want???Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:26 pm

Under Caution

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:16 pm
Posts: 992 HiDeHo wrote:
Did the door open BEFORE she stopped crying...or..

Did she abruptly stop crying and someone left after......

That same thought had crossed my mind, but didn't like to say.

What concerns me is that Mrs Fenn said she heard the patio door open and the crying stopped. But the McCann's must have been using the locked front door at that stage, so why would Mrs Fenn say the patio door was opened?

I can't help but think that something horrible was happening to make Madeleine cry and that the person involved may have left by the back door having first been let in by the front door.

Do you maintain your conviction that Madeleine McCann was killed?
Francisco Moita Flores
"I do. The mystery lies with one or two of the ten or twelve elements that used to enter that apartment”


HiDeHo Post subject: Re: Why are we giving the McCanns what they want???Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:39 pm

Trainee Criminal

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:07 pm
Posts: 127 As far as the apartment being left open I don't think for one second that the McCanns would leave without locking the doors.

How many people would visit a foreign country and not be vigilant about making sure all documents etc were safe?

As with creating 'neglect' to make the abduction believable...they needed to create the opportunity for entry.

If the plan was to jemmy the windows and while everyone was at the bar, someone tried, but failed to let Kate know (ROB returned to the table about the same time Kate left) and their only other option was to admit to doors being left open

Had this been a TRUE abduction the parents would have NEVER admitted to unlocked doors (even if they were) That would immediately create the scenario where they would be blamed...for neglect....

Their actions become obvious when viewed that way..

Only in a SIMULATED abduction would parents admit to negligence so freely.

Therefore...If they always used the locked door to enter (as is very probable)...then the patio door was probably someone leaving.......and the crying stopped.

viv said...

I find it possible that Kate was making telephone calls on the Tues night due to what had happened to Madeleine.

Kate preferred to get rid of her rather than save her from abuse, she is evil.

viv said...

and we have sick Renoir upsetting decent posters as usual, calling it a "crying scenario" and an "accident"

No wonder I used to clash so badly with that thing when I used to post on there, they are not really difficult to spot!

renoir Post subject: Re: Why are we giving the McCanns what they want???Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:30 pm

Trainee Criminal

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:45 pm
Posts: 235 I think we have to assume that Maddie was alone in the apartment, during the hour-and-a-quarter crying scenario.

Otherwise, how much sedation would have taken place for the other children not to have woken up?
I'm no expert on sedation. I'm sure someone on here knows more about it. But, an hour-and-a-quarter crying, wouldn't that be enough to wake even a sedated child?

If that were the case, (that she was alone) and all the other adults were involved in the "sectioning off" of this child, who was then alone when she had an accident - would this be enough to create a pact of (guilty) silence among them?

viv said...

oh and of course sick Renoir tells us "she was alone"

You are not fooling me or anyone else "lady"

viv said...

but people are still confused with this apparent "cadaver odour" IMO, even suggesting Madeleine died on the Tuesday night which is fanciful in the extreme.

viv said...

and here we have "Beachy" making the usual veiled attack on both Portuguese and Leicester Police AT 5.41 AM, are you so concerned Beachy?

Of course what Beachy fails to mention here is that there is clearly a separate and confidential investigation going on alongside the Portuguese one by Leicester Police. Investigations into sexual abuse of children are always confidential. David Payne even refers to it being the "wrong forum to discuss". He frequently says "as you already know" etc and he frequently refers to "problems at work and problems in the last few years, as you know".

But even more to the point, Beachy carefully avoids referring to the email exchange between DC Marshall and Ricardo Paiva, from which it is patently obvious Leicester Police have been further interviewing the Paynes.

viv said...

beachy Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:41 am

Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:10 pm
Posts: 57 heart_for_maddie wrote:
dear beachy, didn't you say you think the "talk at the table" was just horsing around ? i'm not trying to be combative, i will go re-read, but just thought i would ask you.

No, I did not say that I thought the talk at table was just horsing around, but I do not believe it necessarily was indicative of paedophilia, either. What I have said ever since I first read the Gaspars' statements is that I thought that it was in execrable taste and possibly the result of both Gerry McCann and David Payne being well into their cups, but I cannot imagine that two men who were engaging in paedophilic activity would discuss it whilst sitting at table within hearing of several people and more to the point, either side of a woman who was not involved in it.

This is what Katherina Gaspar says in her statement about bath time on Mallorca:

During our holidays in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children's baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to take care to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, my daughter E. I was very clear about this, as having heard him say that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E. alone.

I personally find it odd that the bathing of the children was left to the fathers, but the wording of the statement ("the fathers") makes it clear to me that David Payne was not the only father who was doing this.

In addition to this, there was a question which I put back on the original 3A and which no one has never attempted to answer: In her statement, Katherina Gaspar says that she and her husband got together on one other occasion with David and Fiona Payne after Mallorca, and that in the past two years before Maddie went missing, she and her husband had got together "as a family," which I interpret to mean including their children, "every now and then" with Gerry and Kate McCann. We all know that it is easy enough to say a polite "no" to an invitation from people with whom you do not wish to socialise - we've all done it at some time or other - and that if you say it consistently enough, people will eventually get the message and leave you alone.

"Beachy" continued below:

viv said...

If you were Katherina Gaspar and truly believed that you had been sitting between two paedos who were making obscene gestures about interfering with little girls, would you ever have voluntarily got together with either of them again, much less have got together with one of them MULTIPLE times "as a family"? I for one cannot imagine it.

My personal belief is that the Gaspars, primarily Katherina, had their doubts about what they had seen on Mallorca and did the correct, public-spirited thing and reported it to the police for checking. It appears from what Mr Amaral says in his book that the police did what checking of records was possible and came up with nothing.

Also in my opinion, David Payne, both for the benefit of the investigation and in fairness to him, should have been asked about this point-blank, before he was aware that the Gaspars had made their statements. He wasn't, and even if he were asked about it now, he has had any amount of time to come up with an answer. Sometimes in an interview if you hit someone squarely between the eyes with something they are not expecting, you will get a telling answer or at least a reaction that will further arouse your suspicions, but that did not happen here so far as I can tell.

In my opinion the interviewing in this case is the worst I have ever seen - on the part of both the Portuguese and UK police. Both forces are at fault, it seems to me. If one wanted to put it in biblical terms, verily, there is enough blame to go around.

This is, as I say about so many things, just my opinion. I know many people do not agree with me and that is fine. But I have thought about this a great deal, and whilst I admire the Gaspars and think they did the right thing, I have never been convinced that paedophilia had anything to do with Maddie's disappearance.

viv said...

"In my opinion the interviewing in this case is the worst I have ever seen - on the part of both the Portuguese and UK police. Both forces are at fault, it seems to me. If one wanted to put it in biblical terms, verily, there is enough blame to go around."

This is the further message Beachy wants to put loud and clear, apart from repeatedly insisting this is nothing to do with paedophilia, it is Kate and Gerry's major message, the British and Portuguese Police are rubbish, they have only pointed the finger at us, and they have failed to look for Madeleine.

ON behalf of NORMAL people everywhere "Beachy" I have just one thing to say RUBBISH

Sex offenders always attack and blame the Police, even the child FACT

viv said...

"Rosiepops", "Beachy", "Renoir", "Tinkerbell" with the cute little fairy girl avatar, there is nothing to choose between any of them, they are all on the same sick perverted side.

viv said...

Taking responsibility, upholing the law? I do not think so! I think avoiding the law was your life time's occupation!

beachy Post subject: Re: What would you do??Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:41 am

Local Lag

Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:10 pm
Posts: 57 Perhaps this seems harsh, but upholding the law was my lifetime's occupation.

I told my kids from the time they were old enough to understand what I was talking about - if you break the law, you are on your own. Own up to it like a man or woman and take your medicine, or request a public defender and fight it as best you can - your choice. I will not hire you a lawyer, and I will not bail you out of gaol.

None of them has ever tried me out, but if they do, they will learn that I really meant what I told them. I believe very strongly that it is possible to learn from one's mistakes, but only by taking responsibility for them.