21 May 2008

KHYRA ISHAQ, 7, DIES FOLLOWING APPALLING ABUSE

Khyra, in happier times, before she was starved to death
Khyra's aunt Valeries Frances speaks to the press about the death of her niece
Hi All What a shocking and sad case of six children enduring unimaginable suffering, costing little Khyra her life, the police just too late to save her. From reading this story it seems that everything was OK until last December when something must have happened in the mother's life and she started to severely neglect her children. Both the mother and step-father are remanded in custody on neglect charges but clearly further charges may follow in relation to the death of Khyra. It highlights again that sometimes family circumstances change for the worse and children start to suffer terribly because of it. It is very difficult to imagine how the children could have suffered like this for about five months without either school or neighbours feeling there were concerns that should have been raised earlier. Tragically it highlights that even in this modern day and age children can be suffering the most terrible ill-treatment but no one comes to their aid or rescue. I read earlier Hope suggesting that perhaps the time has come for all children under about twelve years to be very regularly checked by authorities to make sure they are safe and well. No doubt this would be expensive, but surely our little children are worth it, if it prevents any more children from suffering such a terrible fate. Even for those who have survived, they can be fed and given proper medical care but the terrible blight on their childhood will no doubt always be with them. Statistics confirm that pre-school children are at even greater risk and they do not even have the benefit of the school keeping an eye on their welfare, much greater focus should be placed on careful monitoring. No doubt this mum had very young children too. It is also often the case that parents with a large number of children just give up trying to properly care for them, again, birth control, education, monitoring, encouraging neighbours to speak out at an early stage, in confidence and without fear of reproach are needed to prevent further tragedies like this. When are we in the UK, finally going to learn the lessons. How many more children have to suffer? Why dont we have public service ads?
Viv x

Couple charged after daughter, 7, starves to death and five brothers and sisters are forced to eat bread left for birds
By Daily Mail ReporterLast updated at 7:51 PM on 21st May 2008
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A seven-year-old girl has died of starvation after police found her and five other children in an emaciated state and living in squalor.
Khyra Ishaq died soon after she and her siblings, three boys and two girls, were rescued from their home and taken to hospital.
Police had been tipped off to their condition by neighbours who spotted them eating bread that had been left out for the birds.

Tragic: Khyra, 7, starved to death
A man and a woman, believed to be their mother and stepfather, appeared in court today charged with neglect and were remanded in custody.
Police swooped on the house in the Handsworth area of Birmingham on Saturday to find the severely ill girl in squalid conditions.

She was taken to hospital but pronounced dead shortly afterwards.
The five other children, who were lying on mattresses, were suffering from starvation and were also taken to Birmingham Children's Hospital.
A hospital spokeswoman refused to comment today, saying: "We cannot comment because of the criminal investigation."
A neighbour who lived near the family described seeing children at the home grabbing bread which had been thrown out for birds.
Post-mortem tests to confirm the cause of death are due to take place.
A statement by West Midlands Police said inquiries into the girl's death were continuing.
"Her cause of death has not been confirmed at this stage," it added.
A Birmingham City Council spokesperson said: "We are deeply saddened by the death of this child and our sympathies go to the child's family and friends at this difficult time.
"This death is now the subject of a police inquiry and Birmingham City Council are fully supporting their investigation."
The door and ground floor windows of the house at the centre of the inquiry in Leyton Road were covered with metal shutters today.
Neighbours claimed the children's mother had recently converted to Islam and that she had split up from her children's father several years ago.

Starving: Khyra Ishaq, 7, was rescued by police from this terrace in Birmingham but died of starvation shortly afterwards

Lilian Costello said she had known her well and used to speak to her almost every day until December but had not seen the children for months.
She said: "I saw her on Christmas Eve and I wished her a Merry Christmas but she said she didn't celebrate it, she celebrated Eid.
"I didn't see her for another four months after that and when I saw her again at the beginning of May, she said she still lived up the road.
"I asked how the children were and she said they were alright. She seemed very devoted to the children and I am very surprised.
"She used to let the children come out to play with the other children and she always stood at the front of the house watching them.
"There were three boys and three girls and they were a nice bunch of kids, very well-mannered. It's just so sad knowing that one of them has died."
Other residents in the street were visibly shocked when told of the charges which have been brought against their former neighbours.
Sales worker Amarjit Ram said: "I am just shocked to be honest - the mother looked fine to me.
"I would see them in the street and I think they had lived there for a couple of years."
One neighbour, who did not wish to be named, added: "We would never expect something like this. We knew they were going through some trouble about a year ago.
"Before that we used to see the children and they looked happy and normal, but after that we didn't see them.
"They seemed like normal, happy kids, but then they disappeared. The house wasn't very well kept. It's not the cleanest of places. We only live a few doors down. It's shocking."
He said police had been outside the house for up to four days after the raid on Saturday and described an ambulance arriving in the middle of the night.
Other neighbours told ITV that three of the children were seen in recent months looking "extremely thin".

All six children were taken to Birmingham Children's Hospital, above. A man and a woman have been arrested and remanded in custody.
Mohammed Khalil, who lived nearby, said he used to see some of the children in their uniforms on their way to the nearby Grove School but that he had not seen them for months.
"The children's father, he didn't live there. He was living there but then he moved out," he said. "I think there was another man living there. I saw him a couple of times."
Parents collecting children from the primary school tonight were handed a letter informing them of Khyra's death.
Signed by the school's headteacher, Pamela Matty, it read: "Dear Parents, We have been informed by the police that a child in Handsworth has died.
"As a mark of respect for the family and the community, we are postponing tonight's music concert to a future date."
Police wearing protective forensic suits had been seen removing furniture and carpets from the house over the weekend.

565 comments:

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Cláudia said...

Hello, everybody!
Hope everyone's ok. Really, really tired. Kids, translations and football, of course. Now that Manchester United has won the game and the Champion's League (although Cristiano Ronaldo missed a penalty after scoring MU's only goal) I can go to bed and finally rest.
As for your new thread, viv, querida amiga, I just read the title. I don't think I can deal with all that info tonight because I really need to sleep and I suspect I wouldn't if I read it. Tomorrow.
Sleep well, everybody!
Dorme bem, querida amiga.
Beijinhos!

LittleGreyCell said...

Good Morning All,

I'm a bit perplexed here. I don't know exactly how the system works, but why wasn't something untoward spotted by Khyra's school? And if she hadn't been attending, why wasn't this investigated by the authorities?

What was that thing a while ago where officials were approaching kids out of school - even if they were with their parents - to ask what they were doing off the school premises? Was this a local authority thing? How could a child just fall off the radar?

Surely a teacher would spot a child who was unhappy or disturbed, or not getting enough to eat?

What's going on here?

Stella said...

I don’t know about all of you, but I am still very, very angry over the Victoria Climbie, case. That poor little child would still be alive today, if we had a proper system in place.

Far too many people work around children that should never be there. They take these jobs on for the sake of having one, not because they are passionate about the protection of children. Don’t get me wrong, there are many who should, but I feel they are the minority.

Now we have the shocking story of Khyra Ishaq and her siblings. Where was the schools role in all this?, there is presumably more than one teacher involved who could have raised the alarm. The school secretary seeing more than one member of the same family missing, should have raised alarm bell number 2. Don’t try to tell me the neighbours did not question where they have all been for the last few months. Sorry Leigh, once again and twice in the same week, I find myself asking for a dedicated hotline . . . . .

Neglectful parents need to be dealt a short, sharp, shock, and be told If you abuse, you lose. The problem we have here is where to house all these poor little refugees. After all it would be such a cost to the state, no wonder they would rather leave these children in such situations and hope they live to tell the tale. This Victorian attitude is how it has been for a very long time and this is how it will stay, until someone finds the strength and determination to bring about a long overdue change.

How many people have a spare bedroom just sitting there collecting dust, that they could put to good use as a short or long term solution?

How many people are having to adopt abroad, because they cannot adopt a child at home? “they did not meet the criteria”, and yet we never vet all parents on the birth of their own child.

If we can try to find all those loving people, and try to find all those spare bedrooms, there will be a safe house for all our neglected little angels. They are out there, we just need someone to bring them all together. People with love to give, children who require the basics. It really is that simple. If there were thousands of homes ready and waiting out there, the authorities would step in immediately and do something about it. You and I both know it. Perhaps this is the new way forward. “Let your spare room save a life”.

Food for thought.

As you walk down your street, door after door after door. Do you ever wonder what it like to live inside those houses. If there is a child inside, how do you judge their health and happiness. By their looks, their toys or their parents. Stop, look and listen. Take the time to ask yourself if anything does not seem right. If you see something that is strange or different, or hear something that disturbs you, for Gods sake do not turn a blind eye, do something about it. Call the NSPCC, but please do not walk away. If your gut instinct, that feeling of something does not feel right, that nagging little pit in your stomach is telling you to do something, listen to it.

Stella said...

Sorry, Good morning all, was a little overheated and forgot my manners.

ratonthebeam said...

I don't get it either. The moment one of my kids are off school, sick or whatever, somebody from the school is on the phone by 10 am, wanting to know where they are. If there is no explanation, it's immediately investigated. Why didn't that happen here?!

LittleGreyCell said...

Apparently, the Mail says the kids were taken out of school to be educated at home. Hmm.

Zodiac said...

Good morning all,

How can this happen in 2008. Six children starving and as a result one dies and no authority is aware of this. Shame on the School these children attended. What have these poor little souls endured the past 5 months?

Zodiac said...

LGC,

Educated at home. One would imagine that if a parent decided to home school their children, the parents would have meetings with the Education Deptartment. The childrens completed work would be sent somewhere within the establishment and home visits would be made to see/check the working environment. Sounds like a cop out by the School.

nancy said...

VIV -

Thanks for making that the topic for today - it badly needs discussing.

So why didn't the school authorities or the social services check on these children if they hadn't been seen for months? As well as the parents of these children, the child care system has failed them and one little girl has needlessly died again in tragic circumstances. Her siblings will no doubt bear the scars of their plight for many years, if not forever.

What happened to school inspectors for instance that we had when I was a child. If a child had time off without notice to the school, he or she was soon on your doorstep!

Is this what we have come down to in these days of cutbacks to children's services? It beggars belief that this can happen in the 21st century! It happens far too often for us to think this is a one off occurrence.

It doesn't matter what it costs to protect our children. There is always enough money for weapons of war and idiotic schemes by governments.

WHEN WILL WE EVER LEARN THAT OUR CHILDREN ARE DESERVING OF OUR LOVE AND ATTENTION AND THAT THEY ARE OUR FUTURE!

mandarinn said...

Good morning all,
I feel shocked of what happened to this children.
Is it possible to tell you want educate your children at home without a good reason (heath for ex) and without official suppervision?
It is a shame, because so long as i know in my country most of the times it is the teachers who warn authorities(social swervices) when a child seems don't have well feeded or well cared.
Poor litle children.

mandarinn said...

*you to tell

ratonthebeam said...

Mandarinn, it is possible to home-school children in this country (Scotland), but it is supervised. The children are regularly visited by somebody from the Education dept to ensure that they are actually being educated, and it's not just an excuse to not send them to school. If the home-schooling does not bring the children up to a required standard, the parents are forced to send them to school, or they are prosecuted. Zodiac's right. It's a cop-out by the school!

mandarinn said...

RAT,
thank for the information.Shame on the school, however i guess don't take enought attention in children on this age is not the usual ,and certainly this school and the responsible will investigated.Of course the parents and all these children family are guilty, but the school also has a big part on it IMO.i think the aschool is very important in this age to complement family and watch if family is doing right

LittleGreyCell said...

Here's the Legal situation about educating children at home in the UK:-

The wording of the Education Act 1996 requires the LEA to act only if something comes to its attention which gives it reason to suppose a breach of a parent's section 7 duty. It does not need to investigate any instances of home education which come to its attention unaccompanied by any grounds for suspicion that an adequate education is not taking place.

LEAs should bear in mind when considering the replies to such informal enquiries (and other more formal ones, should the matter go that far) that parents taken to court for failing to comply with a School Attendance Order only have to show the court that they are providing a suitable education on a balance of probabilities. That is the test that LEAs must also apply. Also a court will receive any evidence a parent produces, it will not have to be in any specified form and it will be sufficient so long as it shows that a suitable education is being given. Similarly an LEA has no power to require that information be given to it in a specified form or way.

The DfEE acknowledges this in their information leaflet entitled,

"ENGLAND AND WALES EDUCATING CHILDREN AT HOME":

LEAs, however, have no automatic right of access to the parent's home. Parents may refuse a meeting in the home, if they can offer an alternative way of demonstrating that they are providing a suitable education, for example, through showing examples of work and agreeing to a meeting at another venue.

Another "example" might be information provided in written form, sufficiently comprehensive to establish competence and intention, and beyond the mere assertion that education is taking place which Lord Donaldson determined was inadequate.

Taken from http://www.underhill.nildram.co.uk/law.htm

Simple as that.

hope4truth said...

Hi All

I am leaving as soon as I hit post as I am far to busy to be here LOL

Thanks Viv fot making this a topic enough is enough this poor child will become another statistic and it is not good enough.

I was thinking yesterday Once my children had their school injections they did not go back to the Dr again until they were 7 & 9 to get shots because we were traveling overseas. I have since realised that my youngest who is now 12 has not been back since and the oldest who is 14 only went back a few weeks ago so we could organise a Dunlop test for her Dyslexia.

Both my children have had excelent health and the only thing they ever had wrong with them was Chicken Pox and when I called the Dr he advised calpol and calomine lotion and said if they became really ill to call him.

Although they have been in school all this time so the teachers could see how they were if I had taken them out would anyone know or care if I am treating them well?

I could not stand my health visitor she was a pain in the neck so we hardly ever saw her and no one checked why...

Maybe if they stoped paying child benefit if a child was missing from school it would route out people who want the money as for the people who dont need it how do you stop the neglect???

I am seething poor poor Khyra may she rest in peace and may her brothers and sisters recieve the love and care all children deserve.

See you all later xxx

Joe said...

All the systems possible can be in place to safeguard children but if the parents are or a parent is wrong, disturbed or whatever and treat their children badly there is nothing that can be done often until its too late. Its the extreme and fatal cases that make the papers where a catalogue of errors are usually to blame. There is no accounting for a bad parent because in general it goes against the norm.

mandarinn said...

Hummm i hardly believe a mother who abandon her children in that way had given formal and informal information about the education.....
It is a very sad case someone has the guilty of what happened to these children the only innocent are the children themselves
We are living in a cruel world where children are too weak to defend themselves.

mandarinn said...

Joe
I agree with you, hapily it goes against the norm... but poor children who are the exception....

nancy said...

Joe -

Of course, when it comes down to the nitty gritty, the responsibility for the safety of children is down to the parents, or parent as is quite often the case these days unfortunately.

However, back up is obviously needed to help those children of hapless parents, and that is the role of the authorities, be it social services, education authorities or whatever, because vulnerable children

are going through the net day in day out!

The fact that this mother wanted her children to have private education at home should have rung loud alarm bells at the school, because it was not just one child to be educated, but all her siblings too, which would have been an enormous taks for a parent, and I wouldn't have thought the family well off enough to pay for private tuition.

So very sad, and it makes me feel ashamed that it could happen in Britain in 2008!

May that dear little girl rest in peace, and may the suffering of her siblings come to an end right now!

LittleGreyCell said...

Joe,

But the fact seems to be in this case there WERE no systems, and nobody - including the neighbours - appeared to see those kids for months.

If they HAD been removed from school for home-educating, shouldn't the relevant authorities have checked in the early days that it was all going well?

I read somewhere that the children had been bullied at school. Another reason for professionals checking that they were OK in the circumstances, IMO.

Of course there are always going to be bad parents, but this is why there need to be systems in place for spotting them and taking the necessary action.

Parents are supposed to pick up parenting skills on their own with no training, and yet the law comes down on people like a ton of bricks if they park in the wrong place or put their rubbish bins out a day too early. Shouldn't society be more concerned with making sure kids don't just drop off the radar, as these children appear to have done?

Joe said...

Nancy/LGC,

The problem is that there are often cultural or ideological reasons why some parents decide to have their children educated at home. I for always wanted my children to go to school to mix and play with other children, the latter being the most important. Playing and socializing with other children is far more important in helping children to develop into normal happy and balanced human beings where a perspective is learned.

In this case the children being kept at home ended tragically. Social services are reluctant to interfere where cultural/religious differences exist. Sadly as you both said the usual checks and balances of teachers/other children
were absent.

LittleGreyCell said...

Joe,

Of course, I agree there are many reasons why some parents don't want their kids to go through the system.

However, my point is that the authorities cannot use this fact to absolve them from monitoring how children are progressing.

As I said, nobody has to pass an exam to become a parent - unless they are adopting, where, at the other end of the scale, some of the criteria for being accepted are completely barmy.

But the rest of us can bring children into this world without being at all suited to doing the job of taking care of them and bringing them up. Since most of them go to school every day, it is not unfeasible to expect teachers to be able to keep tabs on whether there's anything very bad going on at home.

But in this case, the chidren hadn't been to school for around half a year...shouldn't somebody have called around to discuss their education at the very least?

Joe said...

In recent weeks 416 children were removed from a polygamous sect in Texas. The authorities only acting now. Again this sect was a closed shop where the parents are supposed to be responsible for their own childrens well being.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7355779.stm

Joe said...

LGC,

I would love that Social Services or the Dept. of Education or whoever were rigid about checking on the welfare of children in their community. I think that a heavy reliance is put on schools to whistleblow or doctors or A/E departments. At what point would interference by Social services ( The State) infringe on civil liberties?

LittleGreyCell said...

Joe,

The government sees fit to snoop on you to find out whether or not you've paid your licence fee, and can legally bug you in order to discover if you're planning to fly tip.

I just find it mind-numbing for them not to be so concerned about whether your kids are fit and healthy and are being educated OK.

nancy said...

Joe -

Yes, that's still an ongoing case and let's hope that is the end of that place and others like it, because at the end of the day, it's the children who suffer. Poligamy is a very unhealthy religion (if you can call it that) if you ask me!

What angers me about the authorities in the UK is that no matter how many horrendous cases like this one occur, only lip service is paid to it and then it's all forgotten or swept under the carpet until some other poor child is found battered and starved or whatever!

Where life should be cherished from the very first day of conception, we seem to be going in the completely opposite direction and society is getting brainwashed into the idea that it's ok to get rid of unwanted children, and many of our young doctors are having to do just that on a daily basis with unwanted pregnancies. I know I'm getting into troubled waters here and others might not agree with me, but if a greater value was put on life and it was treated as sacred, then perhaps things could turn around for the better, but I can't see it happening somehow - In the modern world, we have got used to being selfish and thinking only of number one!

Stella said...

We need a telephone number like childline to call if we have any child concerns.

Child neglect is a crime, therefore the Police should be the first ones to go round and inspect the children.

And yes, if you suspect a child has been left inside a property all alone, the Police should have the powers to break the ruddy door down and remove the child from danger.

The reason this has happened and will continue to happen is because on the whole we are to afraid to speak out.

Isn't it better to possibly get it wrong sometimes, than to get it really wrong by doing nothing?

Joe said...

LGC,

There is money involved in the 2 examples you mentioned. Life is cheap in reality. More of a sentence is often given for damage to property than the taking of a life. It boils down to the parents duty and responsibility to care for their children. In the main this is the case with the tragic case we are discussing being a tragic exception.

LittleGreyCell said...

Joe,

Just seen your post about civil liberties - a cause close to my heart.

If it's legal for 600-odd agencies in this country to put bugs in your house relating to matters of taxes and fly-tipping, surely it should be on the agenda for agencies to be able to check on children who have been withdrawn from the education system.

I'm really NOT for the state spying on people - in fact, it makes me so angry that in a few years time my husband and I will be leaving the country to live elsewhere on principle, largely due to the outrageous state intrusion here and diminution of civil rights - but if they think that paying your licence fee is more important than ensuring that children withdrawn from the system are being parented well, I'm speechless.

Children are MUCH more important than money or breaking local laws. Well, they should be, but apparently they're not, are they?

Joe said...

Nancy,

I agree with you but how was that sect allowed to flourish in Texas? The state cannot be heavy handed in a democracy and there are always going to be people who do not conform to the norm. I guess its what makes us individuals.

nancy said...

LGC -

How right you are about the silly decisions that are taking place every day over some triviality in the UK. It could run into a book I'm sure! The PC brigade are out in force about everything and nothing. Children aren't allowed to run and play in the playground in case they hurt themselves etc, and yet nothing concrete has been put in place to make sure that no other child is neglected and starved to death again - it just doesn't make any sense at all!

Joe -

We are all trying to look out for our children and suffering over what's happening to them on a regular basis it seems. Children should always come before adults'civil liberties in my opinion, because they have no-one to look out for their rights if they just happen to be born to the wrong parents!

I think that's the last I'll comment on this sad case because I'm starting to feel really depressed by it!

See you all later!

Nx

LittleGreyCell said...

Joe,

Just remembered that case a couple of weeks ago where a couple were spied on for weeks by an LEA - they parked outside their house and kept a log of when they turned lights on and off and so on - because the authorities thought (erroneously) that they were trying to buck the system by getting their kid into a school whilst not living in the catchment area.

Infringement of civil liberties apart, is this really more important than seeing if children are healthy? They seem to have the money to do this...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1584713/Poole-council-spies-on-family-over-school-claim.html

nancy said...

Joe -

Yes, there are always going to be kids who slip through the net because the law of averages says that all children won't have loving and responsible parents, but we mustn't be lulled into a false sense of security that well this sort of thing happens; we still have to get very angry about it and try to make changes!

Off now - see you later! And thanks for your interesting posts Joe!

Nx

Joe said...

LGC,

I do agree with you that there has been an erosion of civil liberties in the UK, particularly over the last 10 years or so IMO. In the case of spying on a family because the children are withdrawn from school I think the only reason that a Government agency could do so if major criminal or subversive activity was suspected.

I do agree though that regular visits by education or social services should be made in the interests of any children. This is where budget/manpower constraints come into play.

Joe said...

Nancy,

You are welcome its nice to have a different topic at times.

Stella said...

What I also find rather strange is, if the children were not being fed why would the Mother put bread out for the birds?

What did the Mother do when she discovered Khyra had died. Who did she phone to tell? Did she attempt to hide the body and is this how this all came out? I just cannot picture a phone call from her saying something like, "oh hello, I would like to report the death of my 7 year old daughter, who do I need to speak to". Perhaps she tried to blame it on an intruder?

Stella said...

Another thing. The picture of Khyra's Aunt, holding a baby. What on earth is she thinking wearing that ridiculous pendant with what looks like sharp scissors. She's just asking for that baby to get hurt.

Perhaps the whole family needs looking into further.

LittleGreyCell said...

Joe,

I'm not saying that families who withdraw their kids from school should be 'spied' on, just met with occasionally - all above board and open.

LittleGreyCell said...

Stella,

What would the McCanns have around their necks? A tennis racquet, perhaps? Pair of jogging shoes? (Rather than the albatross they seem to have acquired).

;)

Stella said...

LGC

They need a noose....

LittleGreyCell said...

Stella,

LOL!!! :)))

Cláudia said...

Hello, all.
That woman cannot be considered a mother. She let her daughter die. If she couldn't feed her children she should have asked for help. I'm sure that the right authorities would have found a solution. This case is incredibly shocking.

Stella said...

LGC

Very naughty I know, but the way I'm feeling today with child neglecters I think we should a job lot....

Stella said...

Claudia

Have you ever read the book, A Child Called It by Dave Peizer. This boy suffered years of starvation and when he was given food he had to eat it from a dog bowl off the floor. The dogs got to eat every day, he got scraps occasionally. It was all about control. Had nothing to do with money.

mariana said...

Hello everyone

Excellent post Viv

What a horrible story for the little child. The authorities are half asleep. The SS go on removing children from some parents who do not have the means to defend themselves and they oblige them to silence in order to meet their ministry adoption targets.
In this case it was necessary to remove the child from the crinimal parents and yet the SS, just stood there.
The point is that people do not like to adopt older children and therefore the SS do not care about them.

mariana said...

You can read here if you like.

www.fassit.co.uk

www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/G2223

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article2317284.ece

hope4truth said...

Hello Again

Stella I have read Dave Pelzers books and what happend to him was apalling he never got an answer from his Mother as to why she did what she did.

It seems we can choose to have children and then do as we want with them. I dont want to see a system where SS are removing children from familys just in case but there has to be some safeguards.

As I said yesterday a girl had her baby removed at birth because she had self harmed in her teens. Her family all said they would help out and she was fully recovered yet they would not listen. A couple of years ago I read about a couple who had two children 3 and 18 months who were well below avarage inteligene and their children were taken away because the mother asked to many questions. The Father had held down a job for over 20 years the children were clean well fed loved and happy but they were removed for adoption??? It turned out that the youngest had water on the brain and the adoptive couple pulled out so the poor children were left in care

If anyone knows the outcome of the above I would love to know I was away at the time and missed it.

Yet inteligent people neglect their children and nothing?

God forbid you forget to renew your TV Licence you can end up in jail but neglect your children and something bad happends to them and it is everyone elses fault bar yours....

mariana said...

Hi Hope

There are just too many of those cases where the SS have wrongly removed the children from the parents.
A UK young mum left the country to protect her unborn child.
I cannot give you the links to the ones you have asked. I keep them on a portable hard drive and I have given it to a friend.
I will get it back next week if you can't find it on www.fassit.co.uk

Stella said...

Hope

The case of the young girl who self harmed, was she the one who was going abroad to prevent having her child taken from her? That case was all about money. The money it would have cost SS to keep an eye on her, so they thought, well let's just take the baby and be done with it. All very wrong and I'm not sure what did happen in the end other than she was planning to hide abroad.

The second case you mentioned does not make any sense at all, why were they removed?. It is cases like this that causes the likes of the Victoria Climbie cases.

hope4truth said...

Hi Mariana and Stella

Thanks for the link I will have a look later...

The second case I mentioned was in the Daily Mail and I was reading it whilst on Holiday and never heard anymore when I got home.

You dont have to be clever to bring up children you need to have love and care and if a Mother is asking if she is doing things right that has to be a good thing instead of not caring and just asuming she knows...

England 2008 what a bloody mess...

Cláudia said...

Hi, Stella. No, I haven't. What world is this? What parenys are these? Who are these people who treat their children like objects? They disgust me. All of them. And who defend the are made from the same fabric.

LittleGreyCell said...

Hi Hope,

Yes, it is a bloody mess...

...consider the following:-

How much does the Iraq War - which has been going on for years - cost on a daily basis?

And the Guardian estimates that compensation - dished out at the last minute to try and avert a Labour by-election disaster - to those affected by the 10p tax fiasco could be £4.5 billion pounds.

But how much does the Government value the police? A lousy £30 million pounds to backdate their pay award - and in so doing honour their pay promise - can't apparently be found.

Which all means that basically, this country can find billions upon billions of pounds to invade and destroy another country, but not spend paltry sums on its own society so that those who work in vital jobs in its institutions can enjoy a living wage.

(My university tutor would slowly slide under his desk at this point).

Local authorities can find the money to tail people as if they are criminals, watching their every move and keeping logs on what time they switch on the lights and who they associate with, but cannot check up on kids suddenly withdrawn from school after they've been bullied.

Single mothers can be fined 275 quid for leaving their bin out 24 hours early, and a Philippino man whose theatre nurse wife died after childbirth due to the wrong administration of a drug gets deported because his status has changed now that she's dead and has thus stopped contributing to our society by way of doing a highly-skilled job for peanuts.

Where's the humanity gone?

What happened to common sense?

Is compassion now a dirty word?

And in the 21st Century, we, the 4th richest country in the world, don't have systems in place to stop children dying in the middle of the second-largest urban conurbation in the country from malnurishment.

It is a mess. And sometimes it's shameful to be British.

(You can come out now).

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

Have not had time to read back, sorry if this has been said before.

Like the McC neglect. What if all 3children had disappeared like M.

What if all 6 of these children starved to death. This is 2008 and it is disgusting. The parent and partner are to blame, that I have no doubt. I also believe the system is to blame and has failed these 6 children miserably.

LittleGreyCell said...

Hi Zodiac,

Your post reminded me of a poster on the 3As whose signature is:

"It could have been worse - we could have lost Shane and Emily as well as Margaret".

:)))))))))

nancy said...

LGC -

I just love your posts!

And yes, what did happen to common sense that seemed to get us all by quite nicely not so long back?

How is Opus by the way - I hear you are infatuated with him!!

Yes, I went to the trolls for the first and last time - what a smelly, evil that place is!! If she was a man she could quite easily be named Lucifer!!!

Nx

LittleGreyCell said...

Hello Nancy,

Thank you!! I'm afraid I do have the odd rant now and again!

Opus is very well, ta. He has a thing about Hope but not sure if this is just cupboard love, as she does indulge him with chocolate herring crispies a lot. (And then he expects me to do the same. Huh). Perhaps Viv will invite him to post on here soon...

I can't believe all the vitriol and xenophobia on the other sites - it's an education, Nancy.

:)

Stella said...

Leigh “our” Shepherdess,

I truly thank you for your very kind words last night.

Roughly 5 years ago I met a very special woman who was in her 70’s, her name was Olivia and she was a very spiritual person. In her presence, the hairs on the back of my neck would stand up, much like it does when I enter any church. An intense feeling of some sort of higher connection, if that makes any sense. Anyway, Olivia told me that I needed to listen to and trust my gut instinct, it will always guide me in the right direction. We all have it, but rarely use it.

Not sure if anyone else noticed this, but since I joined this site, I have not once had one conversation with Gina. The same reason I never visit those other sites, there is already enough negativity in this world, to go looking needlessly for any more.

Where there are positive people there is strength. Where there is strength there is determination. Where there is determination there is always achievement. Something they will never have on any of those other sites, nor will they ever achieve in defending child abuse. I can feel people’s energies through their words. I can usually tell quite quickly when someone is not being honest.
There will of course be others along the way. Let us all be wary and ready for the next Trojan Horse.

By the way Leigh, I intend to check out this guy Tom Stoppard, he seems to be a very positive person, ‘information is light’, and without light how can we ever learn?

On another note you asked the other day about Mark55. I’ve got a strong feeling he has been advised by his legal eagles not to participate in these sites, as some of us were onto him.

Mark written in 55AD.

'Jesus Heals a Demon Possessed Man'. Now that explains a lot…

'And all the time, by day and by night, in the place of the dead, and in the mountains, he was crying out and cutting himself with stones'. Is there a subliminal message here too?

Zodiac said...

Stella,

'I can feel people’s energies through their words.'

Your comment above made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I am not religious but do believe words and the power of thought are very strong tools. I used to do Spiritual Healing until a few years ago. I lost a loved one and did not have the emotional and physical energy to devote myself to healing. I do a little now but do not intend to do as much as I did in the past. I too believe in trusting one's instinct, no one will ever make me think otherwise.

Stella said...

Zodiac

I am not a religious person either, nor do I go to church on a regular basis, but I do believe we are all put on this earth to achieve things. I believe we have abilities that we do not fully know how to use. Yourself is a fine example, you found it and used it. I hope one day when your heart has healed you will find the strength to try again. Such talent would be truly wasted.

Time itself is the greatest healer.

Zodiac said...

Stella,

I agree with you and thank you for your kind words.

BBFN.

Stella said...

Zodiac

I'm off now too. Have a lovely evening.

hope4truth said...

LGC

I agree with every word you wrote and read all of it on top of my desk no sliding required...

It is shameful that we can spend a fortune destroying another country and not find any extra money for children.

While we are all on ou soap box more money needs to be spent on clubs and activities for teenagers to keep them off the streets. If they have no where to go they will cause trouble if they have somewhere they enjoy going they will not want to be excluded from it and will behave the money could be used that is saved from aresting and clearing up after some of these people.

xxx

atardi said...

Hi Viv and others,

Tomorrow I read your headline but wasn't able to read the article.

This afternoon I read it and was "speechless". Didn't know what to say/post. Still I don't have words to tell how I feel about Khyra's tragic death. Why? She was only 7 years old.

How is it possible that this can happen in 21st century in England?

nancy said...

Atardi -


It's a difficult question to answer, but I think some of us on here have had a good shot at it!

It makes me ashamed to be British quite honestly, because we don't seem to learn by other tragic cases in the past!

The people who could have helped these poor children let her down in a big way and they should hang their heads in shame!

Just what sort of a mother could let her children suffer in that way - it's incomprehensible!

I don't think we have heard the last of it though by any means.

nancy said...

Hope -

I hear what you are saying, and I agree wholeheartedly that too much money is spent by governments on the wrong things - wars being the worst scenario - but it's true to say that there are many well behaved children with nothing to do after school either, but they don't go rampaging around making life unbearable for people. In the past lots of money has been spent on Youth Clubs, and many of these kids just trash them.

I'm afraid it is not lack of facilities that makes some children behave in such a way, but the fact that many of them have behavioural problems due to their upbringing, often involving neglect, and lack of good standards and principles being taught them.

Our family had modest incomes when we were young, but our parents kept us in check - if we didn't behave then we were really torn off a strip, so we didn't do it again! My parents always said - treat others as you would wish to be treated and so we certainly tried to do that.

Unfortunately, many youngsters today don't have the proper moral guidance from their community or their parents.

Yes, of course youth clubs, and playgrounds are very necessary for all our youngsters, but whether it would make them behave any better these days is a different matter unfortunately. What sort of a youngster carries a gun or a knife for instance? All the clubs and playgrounds in the world wouldn't change the attitude of some I'm afraid.

The government talk about good parenting classes, but I don't think being a naturally decent parent is something that can be taught. However, I suppose it's a start!

Personally, I would advise any young couple wanting to start a family to give it a lot of thought and if they are not 100% sure they can bring a child up with love and good guidance and be able to suffer the slings and arrows of parenthood, then don't do it!!

Nx

atardi said...

Nancy,

I don't think you must ashamed to be British, you have this feeling because you are a human being.

As a human being one wants to protect children no matter where they live.

And when we hear about cases like Khyra it makes us feel sad and mad again. Just like Madeleine.

You think Khyra's mother was sick?

nancy said...

I'm off for a while now - baby sitting for a young couple up the road!

See you all later on!

Nancy x

PS. Poor Madeleine has taken a back seat today, but I'm sure she wouldn't mind our giving space to that poor young girl and her siblings!

nancy said...

Atardi -

I don't know if the mother was sick, but I think there is a good possibility that she had a mental breakdown or something. Either that, or she is very cruel, and there are people like that! What else would make her use her children so cruelly, but I'm not an expert in these matters of course.

I think the truth will come out very soon and we will then be able to see exactly what happened and make our own judgements.


Nancy x

LittleGreyCell said...

Thanks, Hope.

Maybe teenagers could be gainfully employed making batches of choccie herring crispies? OK then, it's my turn tonight :(

Did you watch the prog with the Duchess of York the other night(s)? Allison Pearson wrote a very negative thing about her motivation for doing the show, but whether or not that was the case I have to say that Fergie came across as a very down-to-earth, approachable, real person. And I'm not known for my fondness for the royals.

But the family she was 'advising' was very interesting. All the kids smoked apart from the youngest (11? 9?), and whilst they had a very limited budget to feed 6 of them - they insisted they couldn't afford fruit - it subsequently transpired that the grandfather had a thriving allotment, yet the family constantly refused anything he grew on it.

Their diet was, from a nutritional point of view, appalling. It's the kind of diet that leads to ADD and ADHD and much more. (Somebody in my family works in this field).

And you're right - what do teenagers have to do? I live in a VERY middle class area, but even here the police have started patrolling the streets on Friday and Saturday nights, on the lookout to pre-empt trouble.

I feel there's no respect any more on the part of the government(if ever there was) for the citizens of this country (though we are, technically, 'subjects'), let alone the young people who are going to grow up into the future of the country. (Not mine, though, he'll be in the USA and I'll be in the South of France).

This country's priorities are totally screwed. I don't know how that happened, but I don't see it being sorted out any time soon. More's the pity.

:(

hope4truth said...

Hey LGC

Can you imagine the youth of Britain making herring crispie cakes it could be seen as child abuse as they smell so bad (the cakes not the children)...

I missed the programe but did hear Fergie on Radio 2 and she did seem to be very down to earth and said that she had recieved a text from the family and they are her friends now. I have no time for the Royals but then I dont think they have much time for her poor woman. The way she spoke about her girls was lovely she says they are a tripod and they seem very close.

Nancy had a good point many times kids do trash the places that are given to them but I have seen programes when they get them involved with fixing cars or something and really change their lives around.

My girls have the house to bring their friends into and although I now allow them out most of the time they come back with lots of friends...

It should start with Parents if we can all love our children and respect them it should be passed on to the next generation...

Britain is the pits these days like you said leave your bin out a few hours early and you are fined forget to pay your TV licence and you could be jailed. If you choose to take your child out of school for a week to have a holiday you can be fined £150 and if you work at your relationship and are not a single parent each of you can be find £150.. While I dont want my children to miss to much school there have been a couple of times when we have needed to go away in term time (we have never been fined as we had permission) but keep your child at home for months and no one botheres to check???

Grrrrrrr

atardi said...

LGC and Hope,

The problem with teenagers is that they are living in a "fast" world. They don't have the patience to read a book and find information about a topic.

They want an quick answer. Just like programs they like to watch about real life.

Don't know if you have ever watched
"Sweet 16" on MTV?

Many teenagers think they must live like that.

LGC,

Talking about programs........
I really don't want to be off topic.

Saw the other program again. You were right about the title. At the end of the program I saw the title on a bus. (In English)

Yesterday I have been thinking of you.
Have you ever heard of "Signing Murder"?

Viv,

I'm not trying to be off topic.

hope4truth said...

Atardi

I dont think Leigh ment for one minute that we should not go off topic (I am the worse) but not try and divert the topic to stop talking about what is being discused (I did not put that very well sorry)...

I have had a long day... How are you xxx

atardi said...

Hope,

Don't want anyone here think that I might be a troll. I have better things to do than letting people tell me what to write.

But I have sent you a mail.

hope4truth said...

Atardi

I have mailed you...

I dont think anyone here would tell you what you have to write (what would be the point in posting if we all had to agree on every point) I will just keep Leighs World Weired Web in mind...

Poor Khyra the picture at the top of the page is heartbreaking she was such a pretty and happy looking little girl God knows what went wrong how can any parent stand by and watch their children starve?

I just hope that her brothers and sisters are given as much Love and help they can get to recover and make something of their own lives.

We live in a very very sad world x

atardi said...

Hope,

Yes, we are living in a very sad world.
And I had a good feeling last tuesday .

What happened to the mother that she didn't want to feed her own children?
Khyra, was one of the oldest children.

There are still 5 children who had
the right to have the basic needs according to Maslow.

Apart from our children we are caring also for another child. (teenager)

And I think more people should think about this.

I'm taking care of my garden.



It's very difficult sometimes but

atardi said...

Hope,

Back from the garden.

Hit the "publish your comment" button too soon.

It's very difficult sometimes but you can give another child the basic needs.

atardi said...

Read you all tomorrow".

viv said...

Hi All I just read all your posts and they are really good. When children are being neglected that is a red flag that needs proper investigation. It is simply no use saying, like the Pro-McCanns do, oh can we just forget the neglect now, it was not neglect it was just an error of judgment.

So are neighbours supposed to say to themselves, oh I will turn a blind eye to those parents going to the pub and leaving tiny children, that is not neglect it is just an error of judgment? It is this sort of complacency to red flags that stops authorities from finding out precisely what is happening to children and it is a very sad fact, that when they do not find out in time, children actually die, Khyra died and so did Madeleine. That is a terrible tragedy and neglect of children should never be minimised or given another name, because if it is, something far worse can and tragically sometimes does happen. Shame on those people who seek to excuse the simply inexcusable. Parents who demonstrate they pose a risk of harm to children need investigating because what we see can be just the tip of the iceberg and children deserve so much better than such a wicked and complacent attitude. Madeleine was a neglected child and now she is a dead child, that is an unavoidable fact, I find people who seek to deny this quite repulsive and clearly not capable of safely looking after children as many of them have demonstrated by their comments.

Changing the subject, I continue to get emails from Doppel, here is the latest one. It sounds to me like he is threatening me, what do others think? Does he really think he is doing me/any of you a favour by encouraging non-stop discussion by a demented and obsessed maniac who clearly has nothing better to do?

I will not disclose his name/email address but it is headed what the hell are you talking about?


Dear Viv,

I used to post on ST's blog defending you and 'your' posters long before I posted on your blog.

And I still post there now doing the same thing.

The reason I don't post on your blog is because you banned me, remember?

And not even an idiot would believe you banned me for stirring, that's why ST and crew are convinced it was all part of a cunning plan.

But don't worry I won't tell them the real reasons, I don't spend months defending someone then stab them in the back.

But I might use the fact that they would dearly like to know what I know as a means to wind them up.

And if you want to say something to me, or about me, please have the courage to either E-mail me or allow me to have the right of reply on your blog, because I am certainly not going to make us both look like complete idiots by replying to you on ST's blog.

The reason I continue to defend you all is because I don't like bullies and that is what ST and her associates are trying to do to the posters on your blog, day in day out and I do it because I think it is the right thing to do - not to make myself popular, if you feel that entitles you to misrepresent me then so be it.

:-)

viv said...

Clearly does not understand what being a stirrer means but this is the epitome of it, I think, he threatens everyone and plays one off against the other, got it now Doppel?

Now go and mind someone else's business and stop over-rating your own intelligence.

Viv x (Now you got your answer, but it will be the last time)
Doppelganger said...
ST,

And you also know that I am very reasonable in the way I post, because if I wanted to I could easily force this blog to become members only, like you all did to Viv's blog.

But I actually DO believe in allowing freedom of speech, but that also means if I read something I don't like I have the freedom to 'Have my say' also.

If you all cannot handle that - that is your problem - not mine.

I would have though 5 or 6 against 1 was a fair 'fight' but obviously not.

:-)

22 May 2008 16:35

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
Haven't posted very much lately as have had a flu like virus but try to read most days.
I think VIv you have incredible patience with some posters, I agree Doppel sounds threatening, and also seems to have an over inflated opinion of his own importance. I think to be honest, anybody who would want to post on Supertroll's site or Roseiepops has to be odd, they are at the very least unbalanced and nasty pieces of work on those sites. I would never have any interest in posting on their sites as there is nobody there you could have an intelligent discussion with...I think most posters on your site on the other hand are genuine caring people, and that is what marks your site out as different. It has shocked me the depths people will go to defend the Mccanns and to me it is now easy to spot them, their hidden agendas are revealed in the end. I know I've gone on a bit but you are good enough to run this blog along with Claudia for us all to comment and discuss the case, and you shouldn't have to pur up with idiots trying to disrupt it....Lizzy

viv said...

Hiya Lizzie

I am sorry you have been ill with a virus and know from personal experience just how much that can knock you about and hope your body is fighting back and you are on the mend.

I do try and steer a course away from all the inter-blog wars because I want this site to be kept to defending children, not allowing warring adults with their own agendas to play mind games.

I do agree that anyone who feels the need to post on either of those blogs needs to ask themselves just why do that? There is no reasoning with them, they are quite unhinged and actually number very few people posting with multiple i.d's.

The people who do post on here regularly are genuine and lovely people, devoted to the welfare of children and I am really lucky to be acquainted with you all because our message is a very good one. No reasonable person can deny that. Children are defenceless against adults and someone needs to be looking out for them when there are so many bad adults about. The UK has a dearth of abusive parents and action does need to be taken. I have always said that maybe we can pursue that in more depth when we have seen that Madeleine gets justice. Her case is so important because of the vast media interest her parents engendered. When they get their come-uppance that will be a very powerful message to thousands of other abusers, for all their power and money and spin, look what happened to them. It will send a very uncomfortable chill down their spines, well if they McCanns got done then so could we. That is a very powerful incentive to protect children and such a worthwhile cause to back.

Like others on here you were one of my favourites on the DE and you can go on just as much as you like darling, it is really great to hear from you and please take care and get well soon.

Lots of love
Viv x

Ana said...

Hello Viv and all,


I find this article which I think is appropriate to the current discussion ( trolls can look at this article like a mirror of their procedures):

Trolls, why we need to keep them far away!




"How To Keep Hostile Jerks From Taking Over Your Online Community


Angry people looking for fights will inevitably try to poison successful Internet communities. Columnist Cory Doctorow looks at ways to remove the poison without killing the discussion too.

By Cory Doctorow
InformationWeek
Maio 14, 2007 11:28 PM


The Internet Tough Guy is a feature in all Internet social forums. These are people who poison discussions with anger, hatred, and threats. Some are malicious. Some are crazy. Some are just afflicted with a rotten sense of humor. Whatever their motives, they're a scourge. It takes precious little trolling to sour a message-board. A "troll" -- someone who comes onto an online community looking to pick fights -- has two victory conditions: Either everyone ends up talking about him, or no one talks at all. And where two or more trolls gather, they'll egg each other on, seeing who can anger and disrupt the regular message-board posters the most.
It can be distressing. If you're part of a nice little community of hamster-fanciers, Trekkers, or Volkswagen enthusiasts, it's easy to slip into a kind of camaraderie, a social setting in which everyone talks about life, aspirations, family problems, personal triumphs. In some ways, it doesn't matter what brought you together -- the fact that you're together is what matters.


More Internet InsightsWhite PapersBuilding an Online Customer Experience Competency: Five Steps The 9 Noble Truths of Custom Experience: Website Wisdom for Everyone in the Organization Pro Football Team Improves Connection With Fans Through New Social Networking Site Then, almost without warning, your community goes toxic. Someone in your group undergoes a radical personality shift and begins picking fights, or someone new comes to the party with an agenda. Or, worst of all: Your little clubhouse achieves some small measure of fame and is overrun by newcomers who don't know that Liza is a little bit touchy on the subject of hamster balls, or that old Fred gets into a froth anytime someone asks about retrofitting a bud vase into a vintage Beetle, or that everyone here actually kind of knows Wil Wheaton from reading his blog and he's a total mensch, so jokes about shoving Wesley out the airlock are frowned upon.
Sometimes, you rebound. More often, you tumble. Things get worse. The crowds get bigger, the fights get hotter. Pathologically angry (but often funny) people show up and challenge each other to new levels of vitriol.

In extreme cases, you end up with the kind of notorious mess that Kathy Sierra found herself in, in which trolls directed such bilious, threatening noise towards a harmless advocate for "passionate users" in web-applications that she withdrew from speaking at O'Reilly's Emerging Tech conference.

You can deal with trolls in many ways. Many trolls are perfectly nice in real life -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober them up. But it doesn't always work: I remember one time I challenged someone who'd been sending me hate mail to call me up and say the words aloud: the phone rang a moment later and the first words out of my troll's mouth were, "You f*cking hypocrite!" The conversation declined from there.

Trolls can infect a small group, but they really shine in big forums."

viv said...

Hiya Ana

Thanks for that it is really intersting and another wake-up call to just what is going on and that we should not allow them to become a topic on this blog (except when we feel like a good laugh, of course)

Early start in the morning but great to hear from you with that really interesting insight which does sum them up so well!

Nite Nite
Viv xxxxxx

Ana said...

Nite Viv, dorme bem querida.

Ana xxxx

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
Just popped on again before bed,thanks for your kind words and thanks also for your hard work in running this blog,you do such a great job.
Hope to post more often now as am feeling a bit better now. Goodnight, take care...Lizzy x

Ana said...

Regarding the new thread:

I am speechless, we are in the 21st century, and how can this still happen?

It beggars belief that these children were spotted eating bread thrown for the birds but neighbours didn't report it to the authorities!
If it was me who spotted this sad situation, first I would feed them and next I would report the case to the authorities. Where does solidarity stands in the middle of all this?
This mother, I am sure, is suffering some kind of head problems; it is not understandable how come she let this happen without her having serious head problems!
Where were the social workers?! I guess/hope there will be an enquiry…!

Children starving to dead, children suffering with adult’s money wars, homeless children by nature disasters … suffering children let home alone, without their parents to protect them!
In which world do we live?

Sad, very sad!! :(


Goodnight everyone,

Ana said...

BREAKING NEWS!

Just came back to let you know that tomorrow 24 Horas headline will be about the McCanns!
They are saying that the prosecutor has warned (an ultimate warn) the McCanns that if they don’t come to the reconstruction they will be accused with neglect!

Good step PJ!

Justice, very soon!!!!

leigh3 said...

Ana,
Thank you for the breaking news. Reconstruction or a charge of child neglect awaits the McCanns and others.

More news: McCann mechanics (like their extradition lawyers who defended the thug Pinochet) will contest lawful inquiry.

Tsk. Hey ho. The 'game' goes on. The PJ will persist, aided by their British colleagues, and they will win Justice for Madeleine Beth McCann, beloved sister of Sean and Amelie, however long this takes, 'whoever it hurts'.

Time and perseverance will settle this first great scam of the 21st Century, I think.

Ana: this takes as long as it takes. Stick with it.
leigh

leigh3 said...

Oops, Ana, and Stella By Starlight,
Forgot my manners. Should have said: 'Please stick with it.'

I know you will. Forgot my manners. Sorry.

See ya next time.
xo
leigh

Ana said...

Leigh, don´t worry darling, be happy!

The article only became available now, so I needed to be awake cose I think this is important news!

24 Horas Article


"The McCanns will be accused of negligence if they are not present for the reenactment

Public Prosecutor fed up with the lack of cooperation of the British couple

Ultimatum to the McCanns

Kate, Gerry and the seven friends did not yet accept to return to Portugal on the 29th. The Public Prosecutor is going to accuse the couple of gross negligence

Text: Carlos Tomás

The Public Prosecutor made an ultimatum to the McCanns: or the reenactment of Maddie's disappearance that will take place on the next 29th of May or the Public Prosecutor will advance with the accusation of gross negligence against the couple.

The PJ also informed the McCanns that "either all of them return (on the 29th) or none will come" as it was admitted by the spokesman of the couple, Clarence Mitchell to the 24 Horas. All, should be read Kate, Gerry and the seven friends that dinned with them in the Tapas, at Praia da Luz on the 3rd of May of 2007.
Clarence Mitchell admitted to the 24 Horas that the reenactment will not take place on the 29th due to doubts of the friends.
Kate and Gerry as the 24 Horas has already reported should be accused of gross negligence being the maximum penalty ten years jail.
"There has not been any kind of cooperation with the authorities from their part. What is strange for parents that are constantly and publicly claiming that they want to find their missing daughter. It is an unusual behaviour. Any father or mother that had lost a child would have all interest in cooperating with the authorities. The truth is from the McCann's part that help does not exist. What they say is that they are willing to come to Portugal but only under certain conditions", explained to the 24 Horas a source from the Portimão's Court.
According to the same source, after the suggestion of the Public Prosecutor to make the reconstruction on the 15th and 16th of May, a new date was suggested: the 29th of May. However less than a week from that day the Portuguese authorities are still empty handed. Neither the parents nor their friends gave any signal of life.

Enough evidence

"We have the conviction that the parents participated in the concealment of the body's girl and that she is dead. Although the existing evidences are not enough to accuse them of homicide. But we have more than enough evidence to accuse them of negligence. They know that and they don't return to Portugal probably because they are afraid of being arrested", said another judicial responsible connected to the investigation.
"It is not understandable the reason why they are all dragging their feet - including the McCanns - to participate in a reenactment that will probably last 6 hours".

Facts

If the Public Prosecutor goes ahead with the accusation of gross negligence against the McCanns, Kate and Gerry will claim that they were "responsible parents" in the night of the 3rd of May, explained Clarence Mitchell. That is the advise given by the Portuguese and British lawyers.

The reenactment of the facts occurred in the night of 3rd of May of 2007 will not be done on the 29th due to questions raised by the seven friends of the McCanns to the PJ. "We are in a phase that the friends, one by one, are presenting their arguments to the PJ. They do not understand the objective of the reenactment one year after the disappearance of Maddie". The friends also "emphasise that more people should participate in the reenactment such as the employees of the Ocean Club and other witnesses". But Kate and Gerry due to the fact that they are arguidos, will come to Portugal if the PJ demands.
Caught by surprise with the fact that the Public Prosecutor might advance with the accusation of gross negligence against the McCanns, Clarence questions: "Why that accusation now, one year after the facts? It seems strange".

Translation by Li, 3arguidos site


What do you all think?
1) - Do you want them to come and not being charged?
2) - Do you want them to come and then being charged?
3) - Or do you think they should not come and then being charged?

My choice:
2) - I want them to come and being charged, not allowing them, to run away again!
Justice must prevail, neglect is a crime!

Ana said...

"so I needed to be awake cose I think this is important news!"
Oops!
Sorry, my bad English is killing me, I should have said:... so I needed to be awake because I think these are important news!I think!? Lolol

nancy said...

Ana -

Hello - nice to see you - it's early but I like to get up with the lark (that's a little bird)!!

I agree with you that the McCanns and the tapas friends should go back to PdeL and take part in the reconstruction because it's a little girl's life we are talking about here. If they don't go back they will prove what cowards they are and that they are not in the least interested in finding justice for Madeleine!

I would not be at all surprised if they decide not to go back though because they've already shown how uncooperative they are with the Portuguese Justicia. If they don't I hope the PJ's carry out their threat of charging them with gross neglect!!

By the way you were right the first time Ana:

".....so I needed to be awake because I think this is important news!"

I wish I could speak Portuguese as well as you speak English. I am amazed at how well you Portuguese girls come on here and write in English so well - and it also shows how confident you are in yourselves. Congratulations!!! or in Spanish - Enhorabuena!!


Nancy x

Stella said...

Ana

Thank you for keeping us all up to date with the excellent news, especially when you should have been tucked up in bed fast asleep. Such dedication Ana, we cannot thank you enough.

SIX days to go and counting.

At the very least it now looks like charges of neglect with a 10 year prison sentence is on the cards. This actually is the best case scenario in the worldwide fight against child abuse. A very clear message to other parents who abuse.

Sadly for Madeleine, this could mean her untimely death may never be punished for the actual crime. The end result is almost the same and at the end of the day the storm cloud will follow them around for the rest of their lives, therefore a lifetimes self imprisonment. A bit like Hell...

Cláudia said...

Hello, guys!
I'm almost wishing that they refuse to come! :-)

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

Ana,

Thank you for the news.

WTF, the wonder couple will claim on the 3/05/07 they were 'responsible parents' they can claim away until they are blue in the face. They were not responsible and at the very least they should be charged with neglect.


'Clarence questions: "Why that accusation now, one year after the facts? It seems strange".'

What is strange is the behaviour of the missing childs parents and everyone who associates themselves with them.

The truth of the lie has to be exposed.

JUSTICE FOR MADELEINE McCANN IN 2008. THE LITTLE 3 YEAR OLD GIRL NEGLECTED ALONG WITH HER 2 YEAR OLD TWIN SIBILINGS ON THEIR FAMILY HOLIDAY IN 2007. THIS IS LEGALLY AND MORALLY WRONG BEHAVIOUR, IT CANNOT BE IGNORED.

I am off on holiday today. Hope things now progress and will try and read you all when I get home.

BBFN,

Zodiac. xxd

hope4truth said...

Zodiac

Have a fantastic holiday see you soon xxx

Cláudia said...

Zodiac, have a great holiday!
You'll be missed!
xxxx

nancy said...

Zodiac -

Have a great holiday with some lovely sunshine!

Along with the McCanns,I think that all of the tapas parents who left their children to go out wining and dining and to get 'into each other' on numerous occasions should also be accused of gross neglect. Eight children in all were left in bed on their own and if an abduction did take place, (which I for one don't believe at all), then all of them could very well have been abducted. I know the Paynes used a listening device, but would it have worked as far away as Chaplins? I doubt it!

I would imagine they will co-operate with the PJ's now they know what the alternative could be!

Stella said...

Does anyone know if they refuse to return (which I will bet on) and are charged, what happens next?

Will British Police arrest them?

Will PJ come over and 'collect' them?

Is an arrest warrant from one country to another, the first step?


Once they have been officially charged with neglect, will all the other information the PJ have be made available to the general public? or filed away forever secret?

ratonthebeam said...

Anybody been over to Trollville today to see what they are making of this :) :) :)

Stella said...

Sorry another question

If they are charged with neglect, what happens to the twins?

Gerry's Job?

The fund?

hope4truth said...

HI Rat

Making of what for some strange reason I will never be going there again LOL x

hope4truth said...

Hi Stella

Hope you are well???

I thought your post yesterday was spot on...

xxx

Stella said...

ROTB

Perhaps they have all done a runner just incase they are also charged with assisting child neglecters :-> ha ha

Joe said...

What I find confusing about this latest news if true, is that the PJ appear to have let the cat out of the bag. In other words the McCanns suspicions about the intentions of the PJ are confirmed. If the PJ have solid evidence to charge them with gross negligence then they could not possibly allow them to leave PDL if they attended a reconstruction, for to do so would be be a failure in their legal duty. It begs the question then of the real point of the reconstruction??


I do not believe that the McCanns will turn up and even if they do, it appears implicit that they HAVE to have the Tapas 7 in tow. I suspect that they will now entrench with Caplan and Co to avoid any proceedings and just argue the legality or basis for years to come. If the article in 24Horas is true then the Tapas 9 have not co-operated one bit and the PJ have clearly lost patience.

Stella said...

Hope, thanks.

Not doing to badly really, thanks for asking.

Yesterday got me really wound up, today thankfully have calmed down a bit, it's not good for my health..

hope4truth said...

Stella

It makes you livid dosent it???

I cant belive this has happend in England 2008 there must be something that can be done to stop it happening again...

xxx

Stella said...

Joe

I believe the PJ always knew they would never ever return, so why have they set it up?

Can see the front page headlines now for May 29th 2008.

McCann's refuse to return to Portugal......

McCann's refuse to HELP their own daughter......

McCann's must be guilty.....

The potential list is endless and they only have themselves to blame. Let's not also forget that new charges of not cooperating could be added to all the others.

Stella said...

Hope

If every single living and breathing adult in this country was reminded on a regular basis to Stop, Look and Listen out for all forms of child abuse and pick up the phone and report it, they would. If no one is asking them to do it, where is the incentive?

In fact it should be a 999 call.

hope4truth said...

Stella

It would be a start people are encouraged to shop benefit cheats car tax evaders can have their vehical squashed but there is nothing in place for child neglect...

See you later xxx

Stella said...

Have to dash, got a call

mariana said...

Hi Viv, Claudia, everyone

Stella

Viv can enlighten us here but I think all 9, be charged with obstruction of justice.

I am wondering if the the Tapas 7 are willing to go that far to help the McCann's.

Joe said...

Stella,


Will the British press or Sky news run with such headlines? I do not think so, which is why we are discussing what Horas 24 says, which may not be even true, as if anything it would certainly stop the Tapas 9 returning now knowing the PJ intentions. I am not convinced about the Horas 24 piece.

nancy said...

Rat -

If you are still there - I know you post on the 3A's. Has Robert Murat posted anything since they registered on there? I would just be interested to know!

Thanks


Nx

bath theory said...

I believe at least two or maybe three have been open with portugese police but are staying quiet in the eyes of the McScammers. (IMO)

Who knows they may even have requested the right to anonymity and be allowed to give evidence in a Portugese court hidden from view and with voices distorted.

I believe the story last year that two had changed their mind. The question is who ? (IMO)

bath theory said...

Having said that the Tapas lot would have been intimidated and fear and intimidation is a powerful force. However, I have asneeky feeking their is an insider at work on these two.

mariana said...

Hi Bath

Good point, I am thinking it could be Tanner/O'Brien.

ratonthebeam said...

Hi Nancy,
He has not posted anything else but I have spotted him browsing the forums a couple of times - his name comes up at the bottom in the "who's online" bit! I guess he can't really post too much at the moment, for legal reasons.

hope4truth said...

Hi Rat

Is it really Murat posting there (or not posting and reading)?

I have just posted on the 3As my 3rd post since January I am getting more used to the layout now..

Hope you are well x

Stella said...

Bath Theory, Hi

I agree, I also think that part of the orginal group are now working closely with the PJ. It is amazing what people will do to save their own necks in desperate situations. If no one speaks they all go down. But if one or two speak up they may get a suspended sentence?

Who knows maybe a husband or wife is totally unaware that there beloved has already made a deal?

Stella said...

Joe

If the PJ or Prosecutors make a very public announcement, I can guarantee you it will be on Sky and all over the press....

hope4truth said...

Stella

From the hate from people who dont even know the McCann's (or do they) if you dare not to buy everything they are selling it must be imposible for any of the T7 to speak out in public. So maybe some of them have realised what ever happend to Madeleine should not be covered up even if it is just that they never checked on them as much as they said they did???

ratonthebeam said...

Hope,
I believe so, yes. I was there the weekend he registered and made a post; there were all sorts of checks and things made by the mods to ensure that it really was him. Obviously they had to be absolutely sure themselves; can you imagine the ramifications if some imposter got on and posted as RM? Anyway, I trust the owners and mods of the 3As and if they are satisfied that it was really him, then that's good enough for me.

hope4truth said...

Rat

Thanks for that he must have been through hell this last year...

See you later x

Stella said...

Hope

This is the thing, at least 1 out of 9 will try to save their own necks, even after intimidation (the hotel meeting). They have already proved themselves to the whole world how selfish they can be, so it is sink or swim time and their is only one seat in a lifeboat. In their shoes, would you take it?

Stella said...

If I was Fiona Payne, I would blow the whistle.

She is a woman who will never benefit from Mason favours.

She has a Mother she must really think a lot of to take away on holiday and her childrens futures to think of.

She has a husband that could be more heavily involved in the plot and could be sent down for much longer.

I think she has the most to gain...

Go on girl, do the right thing

- - - . . . - - -

mariana said...

Hi Stella

"She is a woman who will never benefit from Mason favours."

Why is that?

Stella said...

Mariana

The higher Masons, the good old Brotheran, cannot do the same favours for women. Even when it means saving other Brothers necks.

Stella said...

Mariana

I did not explain that very well. How it works is, you scratch my back, I will scratch yours. All behind closed doors of course. Women are not allowed in their lodges...

mariana said...

Stella

Got you. The same goes for Tanner then.

Stella said...

Mariana

Yes, but she did not have a Mother there to nag her for the rest of her life. Personally I think they are both mad if they think all promises will be fulfilled.

mariana said...

Stella

Non cooperation with the Portuguese authorities means that they risk prison for obstruction of justice and they will have to pay huge legal fees to defend themselves.

Stella said...

Mariana

Good. I am sure the legal fees will be met by their backers, so that will probably not bother them, but prison will. I would like to see Portugal recover as much money as possible.

Cannot wait to see how it will all work when they refuse to return to Portugal. I hope Leicestershire Police force steps in to arrest them on the spot.

mariana said...

Stella

How far are the McCann backers willing to go?
Why will they be willing to help their friends as well?
No strings attached?

Di said...

Good afternoon

If you have the time please look at these two leaflets put together on 3As and posted by Tigger.

They both really get the point across. They are being checked out legally and Tigger would like poeple to print them off or e-mail them to people in their address book.

For those people who have just read newspaper reports and been brainwashed by the spin, it may just make them stop and think.



http://tigger.freeweb7.com/trifold1.pdf

http://tigger.freeweb7.com/trifold2.pdf

Stella said...

Mariana

The problem all along I think has been this big secret. The secret I think is a certain person. This certain persons identity probably means he has access to a bottomless pit of money. If I were PJ I would go in as big as possible with fines, the sky's the limit...

Stella said...

Di

Thanks, will do.

ratonthebeam said...

OMG Di, the Fairies'n'kittens blog are going to go apesh1t when they see that link of Tigger's!!! :) And I believe there's another leaftlet too, "What Are The Chances" (which I actually like better than the "Mother" one). I'll try and find a link.

Di said...

Hi ROTB

The 2nd link I have pasted is What are the chances. Like you I also prefer that one.

I would have put the hole pages on here but don't know how to do that, perhaps you do Rat.

Di said...

Sorry meant whole

ratonthebeam said...

You can't in Blogger, Di, the only thing you can do is make a link. It's one of the limitations I find quite frustrating at times actually, especially if I come across a good picture or something. Still, a link is fine! They are still discussing on the 3As re the legality of the leaflets, before actually distributing them; I think Jailhouselawyer is looking into it.

mariana said...

Di

Thanks for the links.
Excellent piece of work from Tiger.

Stella said...

Di

They are both very, very good. But could you pass a message onto Tigger for me, I had trouble reading 'what are the chances', and I think it will be a pain to print on some printers. Could they possibly consider changing the background image, lighten it even more or something? Maybe it's me and my eyes are not very good today...

Di said...

ROTB

I noticed that about Jailhouselawyer checking things out. I also noticed several people have already started dropping leaflets also leaving them accidently on trains etc., I loved the person who had left several hundred on cars but at Tesco got told off, WHY?? I have had leaflets left on my car several times when parked at supermarkets. My guess is the guy was a pro!! :o))

Di said...

Stella

No your eyes are not funny it is not as easy to read as the first leaflet.

ROTB if you are still there, you know far more than me, would it print off OK if not, perhaps you would mention it on 3As as you know how to get the point across :o)))))))))

Stella said...

Thanks Di

I don't know why I think this, but isn't one of the group or their friends involved with Tesco? I seem to remember somewhere along the line Tesco popping up?


Pop them inside magazines in Outpatients, Doctors and Dentist's surgeries, they will get picked up every 5 minutes and read ! !

Di said...

Stella

I had not heard of a Tesco connection but if so, very interesting.

One of the posters on 3As son is a lorry driver and he is going to do his bit.

Here is the link to the thread on 3As if anyone wants to keep following it.



http://www.the3arguidos.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13144&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=540

Stella said...

Di

Perhaps the lorry driver will give some to all the drivers held up in Operation Stack for when they return to Europe.

Stella said...

Have to go now. Catch you all tommorow...

LittleGreyCell said...

Just looking in, have to be somewhere else...

There is a Lidl link, don't know if this is what you mean?

Got to go!

Di said...

Hi LGC

Lidl link! this gets more confusing, I have not heard of that one either.

Wizard said...

About time someone in the media starting telling it as it is. For those who haven't already seen it I copy Sun article below.

JON GAUNT - Sun Columnist

Published: Today

WHAT is it with the McCanns? They say they will do anything to help find Maddie but are still dragging their feet over returning to Portugal for a reconstruction of the fateful night when they left Maddie and her twin siblings home alone.

Sources close to them say they have "serious reservations".

Why? What serious reservations?

Their spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, asks: "What is the value?"

So now this ex-BBC reporter, Government spin doctor and PR man is suddenly Columbo or Morse, is he?

I’m sorry, but let’s remember they are still prime suspects and if the Portuguese plods want them in Portugal they should be there — reservations or not.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 198108.ece

hope4truth said...

Hi Wizzard

Exactly If my daughter were missing and I was inocent of everything except neglect I would do anything I was asked to do.

Can you imagine if they were suspects in the UK for the same thing and they tried calling the shots???

The Papers have been very queiet over this... Maybe they will do the right thing and return to PDL I think Jon Gaunt sums up a lot of peoples feelings. x

Di said...

Wizard

Not here for much longer another BBQ tonight, not that I am complaining :o)

I read the article earlier from Jon Gaunt, I am glad he is making a stand but wish he had not called the PJs Portuguese plods, they are far from that!!

hope4truth said...

Di

Thanks for the poster link I think they ask every question that needs to be asked...

Enjoy your BBQ xxx

Di said...

Hi Hope

How are you?? doing well I hopefully.

Please take a look at the links I put up earlier they are worth reading. 16.21 post.

Di said...

Hope

I don't know where the I came from, must remember to file my nails, LOL

Di said...

Hope

You beat me to it :o)))))

Di said...

Hope

Off now food ready, rain on the way I believe :o(((

Will try and catch up later if not, enjoy your evening and see you tomorrow.

hope4truth said...

Di

LOL take a brolly xxx

Wizard said...

Hi All,

It’s interesting to note the pj are now saying if the McCanns do not return they will charge them with neglect. This obviously is a clear indication that they do not have enough evidence to charge them with the manslaughter of their daughter. This poses the question why the reconstruction? Would a reconstruction give them the evidence they need? Is the reconstruction just a rue to get them on Portuguese soil and prevent lengthy extradition orders?

If the McCanns are charged with neglect can the more serious charge of manslaughter be tacked on at a later date? I wonder what the pj are up to?

Di said...

Wizard

BBQ over minus the rain thank goodness.

Your question about later charges, I am sure I asked Viv this question several months ago, Viv, please correct me if I have got my facts wrong, I am sure Viv said, Yes... If proven further charges can be brought.

nancy said...

Hi Wizard -

I think the PJ's really do want this reconstruction carried out so as to highlight any discrepancies in the stories of the tapas 9 and any other witnesses they use.

Obviously the McCanns and their friends will want to avoid going because I'm sure they must be terrified of just what the outcome might be.

The biggest problem here is proving manslaughter without a body. There is no doubt in my mind that Madeleine was not abducted, but with no body, how can it be proved beyond doubt that Madeleine died by physical accident, or overdose of sleeping draught. There is the forensic evidence in the apartment and the hire car and the cadaver dogs reactions, but would that be enough to stand up in court?

The tapas 9 are in a no win situation really, because if they do decide to go it could affect the rest of their lives, and if they decide not to then public opinion will definitely harden against them even more than it is right now, but then they seem the type of people who don't give a damn what others think of them!

If they are finally charged with gross neglect they could get a sentence of up to ten years apparently, although I doubt they will because of pressure that would be applied by the UK!

Let's hope their solicitors convince them to go and co-operate with the PJ's for a change!

Di said...

Nancy

I totally agree with you, they all must return to Portugal, if only to allow the PJs to get the timelines to agree.

I watched the 3d images on Youtube of the timelines on 3As today and quite honestly I was amazed how many times the tapas were all leaving the table!! 10 chairs!!!!

It is also on Jonana Morais site.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iak1dbZy4os

dolores said...

Hello to all,
This is an interesting comment on Mccann files regarding the 24 Horas article.



Comment:
Mark Warner, at that time, offered a 'baby listening service', where nannies toured the complex listening for crying children and then alerted their parents. However, this service was not available in Praia da Luz as the company said the resort was too spread out, with many apartments being outside the bounds of the actual Mark Warner complex.
The McCanns will almost certainly argue that if Mark Warner were offering this service at that time, albeit at other resorts, then it must have been considered legal and 'responsible' to leave the children alone, as long as they were being checked on a regular basis.
Their argument will be that all they were doing was the Mark Warner 'baby listening service' by themselves and that, even if Mark Warner had offered the service in Praia da Luz, there would have been nothing to stop an abductor undertaking the same act between checks made by nannies, as opposed to them.
Last month, Mark Warner withdrew this service from all its complexes (Link to Sky News report).
The immediate questions that flow from this are: Would the Mark Warner 'baby listening service' have complied with Portuguese law (if it had been available) and, if such a service was considered illegal, would the McCanns have been expected to know this?
Of course, the problem the McCanns face with this argument is that they do not know what other evidence the PJ have in their possession. This may be CCTV evidence, witness statements, intercepted emails, phone calls or any other evidence of which we have no knowledge.
The recent appeal for witnesses by the McCanns is almost certainly connected to this charge. It suggests they are looking for people who have made statements to the PJ connected to the movement, or non-movement, of the McCanns and their friends from the tapas table that night. And for those people, as instructed on the recent appeal leaflet, 'There is also a reward for information that will help us'.
Of course, we must be careful with accepting the accuracy of press reports but the suggestion that the McCanns could face a 10 year jail term would suggest the charge being considered is not simply 'neglect' but 'neglect leading to death'. To bring such a charge would strongly imply that the PJ have forensic evidence that both Madeleine is dead and that the McCanns and/or their friends then acted to conceal the body.

Di said...

ROTB

Will you explain to me again how to do the direct link to a page pleeeease :o))))

Wizard said...

3A’s Tylersmum talks about the legal side of the McCanns returning to Portugal it is interesting to note she say the McCanns cannot fear the reconstruction itself but the possibility of an interrogation if they return whilst still arguidos. If they were not arguidos they would go because the pj could not interrogate them.

“It would be entirely ethical for any lawyer be they Portuguese or British to advise the McCanns not to take part in a reconstruction. A suspect has the right not to incriminate themselves and that applies to action such as reconstructions as well as statements.

Alves and Clarence are stating the same thing except that Clarence has mentioned that there are conditions involved. The fact that the McCanns are willing to attend a re-enactment if they are not arguidos shows that it is not the re-enactment that frightens them but being interrogated. They know full well that they cannot be interrogated unless they are arguidos.

For this reason the PJ cannot accept as I doubt whether the reconstruction would provide any evidence at all. One doesn't need a reconstruction to see how Gerry would have checked the apartment nor one to discover how Kate "discovered" Madeleine missing.

As to Portuguese law there is nothing in Portuguese law to preclude the prosecutor from bringing charges the moment there is enough evidence. In fact the system is even easier than here as there is no prohibition in a charged person being interviewed further.
If the prosecutor had the evidence an EAW would have already been issued.

Di said...

Off now enjoy your evening all catch up tomorrow. :o))))

Ana said...

Hello everyone,
I’ve just been on “Gazeta Digital blog”, Paulo Reis have a new post there. It is a small one but I am a bit concern about him. Is he serious hill? I hope not….
What else could he mean with what he wrote?
Here is the post:

23.5.08
Ecclesiastes 3
One day, we wake up and we are face to face with it. It has been there for some time. We look for help and start to fight. Day after day. Sometimes, we believe in victory. Other times, we feel that we are loosing. It's a long war and, soon or later, it will finish. That's why I have been absent from this blog, for longer that I expected. I still hope I'll be back.

Posted by Paulo Reis at 16:40:00


Hi di,

Here, how you can put a direct link:
TEXT

nancy said...

Rat -

Thanks for letting me know. I suppose at the moment while he is still an arguido he has to choose his words very carefully. I must keep a look out - thanks!

I bet he is waiting with baited breath to find out whether the tapas 9 go back for the reconstruction! I should imagine he will take a short break somewhere while they are in Pde L and who can blame him!

Ana said...

Sorry Di,

try here

hope4truth said...

Dolores

Hi I cant see how they can say that MW offered the service so they were doing a better job of it by checking themselves. MW did not offer the service in PDL as they did not think it was safe as the apartments were so spread out.

I am so glad they have stopped this pathetic service in their other resorts now as well...

xxx

Cláudia said...

Hello, everybody!
Someone was mentioning the listening service which was never offered in Praia da Luz. I don't think the McCanns can use that as an excuse. First of all, because it was not offered in Portugal. And even if it was, I believe that in legal terms it would not matter because according to the law parents are the ones responsible for their children, not the resort, obviously.

Ana said...

Nancy,

Re:Your post a t 6:28 am

Thank you for your kind words, I don’t think I write English as well as you say but at least I try(lol), maybe is because we, the Portuguese , always have been a brave country with brave people that, when we think that something is not right we fight against it all together. We have done it many times.
hasta luego, chica 

Stella,
Re: your post at 10:58 am
Is my pleasure to keep you all update since, the British press choose to ignore important news!
I will continue to do that because, this is not about all the McCanns, this is only about one McCann, Madeleine, and she deserves all our dedication to bring those responsible in to justice.
We are Madeleine voice, a small girl abandoned by their parents but adopted by all of us!

dolores said...

Hope
I agree with you entirely.
There is no excuse for what they did,they alone made the decision to leave the children night after night they where not forced to do it,there is no way they can pass the buck on their neglect,to others,and the same goes for the rest of them.

Ana said...

Hello Cláudia,
How are you?
I agree with you, there is no excuse, parents are the ones that must keep children safe, not baby listening services which, before this "disaster" happens, I never ever had heard about this nonsense!

nancy said...

Di -

Thanks for the u-tube link - I'll take a look at it later.

Dolores -

I see that the listening service wasn't available in PdeL but they did have a baby sitting service I believe that Kate and Gerry and some of the parents declined.

The Paynes were the only parents to use a baby monitor, and that might have warned them if the children were crying, but it wouldn't have been much use if someone had tried to abduct them which is what they think happened to Madeleine!

David Payne is of course the pal who came out with the 'telling' words - "We know they didn't do IT"!! What exactly is he referring to!!

Ana said...

Dolores hi,
Yes, they were all irresponsible parents. They can say what ever they want, this will never change: they are all neglecters Parents, no excuses for them, and all of them are criminals!

nancy said...

David Payne also said:

"We were waiting for something to happen but didn't think in our worst nightmares that it would be this - we have a pact - this is our matter only, it is nobody else's business" !

Just what were they waiting to happen? Is he talking about what happened to Madeleine? I would think the answer is definitely yes!! Perhaps he and his wife had had words with the rest of the tapas pals about the way they left their children alone each night, whereas he and his wife at least had used a baby alarm!

I wonder if his statement to the PJ's included his revealing and embarrassing statements!

Ana said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ecolab said...

Who is setting the Agenda in a criminal case? The suspect or the PJ?

Just asking!!!

Cláudia said...

Hello, Ana. Sorry, I got a phone call. I'm fine, thank you. How are you, darling?
Before all this it never crossed my mind that people could leave their children to have dinner and that baby listening services (a) existed and (b) were ever used by people who all themselves parents.

nancy said...

Hi Ecolab -

I don't think we should underestimate the PJ's! The tapas lot may think they will get off with their miserable form of child neglect, but I think the PJ's will pull something out of the hat at the end of the day and it won't be a white rabbit either!!!

nancy said...

Good night everyone -

See you all tomorrow!!

Only 5 more days for them to make up their minds about the reconstruction!!! I can imagine the tapas mobiles being in constant use at the moment -
"shall we or shan't we go"!!!


Nancy x

Ana said...

Cláudia,
I fine, thank you!
When I first listen about the existence of this so called “service”, never thought that it was something like, put your heard near the door and listening if babies were crying, if nothing was hear, then they would suppose that everything was ok!
I was in shock at the time and I’m still in shock! How come responsible parents trust in a service like that? I wouldn’t, that is for sure! Glad this service is illegal in Portugal and was never available at the OC! If this service would be available at the OC last year, I can even imagine that the kids would be alone all night long, till morning, considering their responsibility as parents!

Cláudia said...

Glad you're ok, Ana.
I never knew that silence is synonym to safety. And death is, most of the times, not very noisy. Those people are just neglecters.

Ecolab said...

Nancy

Just my point.

I put my last penny on the PJ, too


Side remark!
(I think, that one of the worst things in life is to experience: "Fall of status". People do ANYTHING to avoid that, even murder!)

Ana said...

"And death is, most of the times, not very noisy"

My point exactly! Especially with babies/young children!

Cláudia said...

Ana, that's why they are irresponsible, selfish, neglecting parents.

atardi said...

Hi everyone,

I've read all posts you made today.

Di,

Thank you for the links from Tigger. I liked both. As a mother I would have do and done everything to get my child back if I thought she was abducted.

"What are the chances" is based on what they want us to believe. But we don't.

I hope you will enjoy your BBQ.

Dolores,
It was my intention to read posts from last sunday untill now, but when I read that about MW my blood started to boil again.

Sorry, but FGS do these people really think that they are not responsible for their own children? They got an reducement and are still complaining about MW.

Going on holiday with your kids is not about taking the right jewelry,sun glasses and clothes so you can look good. But forget to take a buggy with you.

Now, who goes first? The parents (jewelry,etc.) or the kids?(buggy,etc)


Holiday with the family is about spending time together, have fun, dinner with the kids and put them to bed afterwards and talk/read a book on the patio afterwards.

Talking about your kids. And not planning how to influence the public about Madeleine saying bla, bla,bla, because she was left alone.

I don't believe that.

Ana said...

Pink response concerning the 24 Horas report!
"Kate’s "mental well-being" is another factor that causes concern, according to Mitchell.
"Is it supposed that she sees a child to be kidnapped in front of her? What type of anguish is going to cause her? It seems to nobody to have thought about that ", he stressed."
My question: how is she suppose to see a child being kidnapped if she was not even there at the time?


Sol article


"Madeleine: The McCanns will travel to Portugal, but friends question the re-enactment of the girl’s disappearance

London, 23 (Lusa) May - Kate and Gerry McCann are still willing and they will obey to a notification of the Police to participate in a reconstitution of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, but their friends question the validity and the proposed model.

“Basically, it is not up to Gerry and Kate [the realization of the reconstitution] because they are arguidos and, if their presence is requested, and if they have to go, they will go ", guaranteed today the spokesman of the couple, Clarence Mitchell, to the Portuguese News Agency.

"Everything depends on the friends, who were also invited to go but, since they are nota arguidos, they have a right of questioning the usefulness of this exercise and if it will help to find Madeleine - and at this moment their answer seems to be it will not ", said Mitchell. "The Portuguese authorities still did not manage to answer to this simple and only question ", added Mitchell.

Almost 13 months have passed since the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, on the 3rd of May of 2007, from an apartment where she was spending holidays with her parents and brothers in Praia da Luz, Lagos, in the Algarve.

A reconstitution of all the steps given by the parents and the friends who were there at that time was suggested by the Judiciary Police (PJ) almost a month ago, first through the McCanns lawyers and then trough individual summons.

The PJ stipulated the realization of the reconstitution to the presence of the nine British and three dates were proposed in May, two of them were exceeded (15th and 16th of May).

"We are coming very near to the suggested date (29 and May 30) and I think it is very unlikely that the reconstitution will happen”, estimated the McCanns Spokesperson.

The little time remaining to the date also hampers the settlement of the availability of all, exemptions from work , travel arrangements and accommodation, whose cost is not clear who will pay.

The delay in settling the date is, according to Mitchell, the lack of response to several questions sent by friends to the police about the nature of the investigation.

One was why doing a reconstitution of the alleged crime now, 'when they do not do it normally [in Portugal] and they rejected a proposal to do one for the TV program Crimewatch of the BBC last year ", he said.

The friends also questioned the option of the authorities of wanting on location the real protagonists, including the couple McCann and the seven friends with whom they spent holidays, when "most of reconstructions are done by actors' and they also ask why other tourists and workers of the tourist complex were not invited.

Kate’s "mental well-being" is another factor that causes concern, according to Mitchell.
"Is it supposed that she sees a child to be kidnapped in front of her? What type of anguish is going to cause her? It seems to nobody to have thought about that ", he stressed.

In spite of the difficulties, Clarence Mitchell denied that Kate and Gerry have presented "determined conditions" in order to travel to Portugal, as reported today in the newspaper “24 Horas”, based on a source of the Judicial Court of Portimão, and reaffirmed the availability of the couple to help the investigation.

Kate and Gerry McCann are arguidos at present, together with the British-Portuguese citizen Robert Murat, in the process of investigation to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The McCanns seven friends - Jane Tanner, Matthew and Rachael Oldfield, David and Fiona Payne, Russell O`Brien (Jane's companion) and Fiona’s mother, Diane Webster - were cross examined as witnesses in Portugal in the weeks following the disappearance and again in April , In Leicester, England.

To mark the first anniversary of the disappearance, the family created by the campaign to find Madeleine released a new phone number to collect information of potential witnesses and the result was a “strong response”. “We had thousands of mails and hundreds of calls and between them there is some information that is being closely analysed”, advanced Mitchell."

Ana said...

Icwales.icnetwork


Responsible parents do not leave children
May 23 2008 by Our Correspondent, South Wales Echo

I TOTALLY agree with Jayne Wilkins’ letter of May 8 and I’m astounded by Ron Page’s reply of May 15.

Ron Page asserts that many people leave their children unattended in an unsecured holiday apartment while they wine and dine! I don’t think so! And if I witnessed such behaviour from parents while holidaying, I would be the first to alert the local authorities, as should have been the case with the McCanns who left their three children for six consecutive nights in an unlocked apartment 100m, not 40m, away.

No, Mr Page, it is not acceptable and, yes, most responsible parents do stay with their children every minute of every day while in an alien environment.

John Evans, Llandaff

Cláudia said...

If I knew a brainless idiot left their child alone to wine and dine, I would be calling all authorities I could think of!

ellie said...

Good Evening All.

Hope everyone is well this evening. Just to clarify I’m posting on behalf of my mum, who can sometimes be a bit technically ‘challenged’ to put it mildly.

However she is an avid follower of this blog, and believes the McCann’s are as guilty as sin, first of all for leaving their children unsupervised, and secondly she believes there is a lot more that meets the eye with Kate and Gerry, which some of you may or may not believe. She follows the blog daily in the pursuit for Justice for Maddie.

She has jut plucked up the confidence to try and blog herself, and she is slowly learning! Unfortunately she has been met with some hostility – with some people accusing her of being some kind of fraud. I can assure you my mum is no such thing. She is merely a novice trying to express her opinion on the Maddie case, with people who feel just as passionately about it as her.

All I ask is for those few members to perhaps be a bit more welcoming and to those who have already been welcoming, many thanks for your warmth and friendliness.

From now on my mum will be posting under this account so please have patience!

Many Thanks x

Joe said...

Just tell the McCanns that Hello magazine, Vanity Fair magazine and Sky news will be there and they will jump at the chance.... oh and a big fee.

Ana said...

Sometimes we have no news, others…
Here one more article!
SOS Maddie

Google translation:

23.05.2008
British Officer accuses McCann of having an agreement to prevent reconstitution
According to a senior British police Enderby, in Leicestershire, "KATE AND GERRY McCann HAVE ESTABLISHED AN AGREEMENT with their SEVEN FRIENDS to PREVENT the realization of the recovery request by the Portuguese authorities."

"They know that this recovery will not take place if the group is not complete," said the officer adding that "it is clear that Kate and Gerry can not refuse directly and publicly discuss their participation in Penalty see public opinion in the United Kingdom turn against them. "

"That is why they are friends who know they will not participate," said the British officer who had accompanied the investigation in Portugal.

Almost simultaneously or officer wore these accusations, Kate and Gerry McCann have said today, through their spokesperson, they would be willing to obey a notification from the Portuguese authorities to participate in the reconstruction but their friends continued to challenge the diligence involving its usefulness.

Stressing that Kate and Gerry McCann have always status arguidos, to Clarence Mitchell confirmed in statements to the Portuguese agency Lusa information that "if their presence is required, they will, they must go."

The Judicial Police claimed a re-make movements that parents and friends present on the occasion of the disappearance of Madeleine, had declared to have made. Initially the suggestion of the PJ had been transmitted via the couple's lawyers to reach out individual because the validity of diligence requires the presence of the full group that seems increasingly unlikely.

"Everything depends on friends who were invited to go but, as they are not arguidos have the right to question the usefulness of diligence and if it will help find Madeleine - and their response at this time seems to be negative, "explained Clarence Mitchell.

The seven friends - Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien, Matthew and Rachael Oldfield, David and Fiona Payne, and the mother thereof, Diane Webster - were questioned as witnesses in Portugal and the United Kingdom claiming to help the investigating the disappearance of Madeleine, but today they have imposed conditions on their return to Praia da Luz.

According to Clarence Mitchell, given the proximity of the second date proposed by the Portuguese authorities, and the lack of response to the demands of the group, "it is very unlikely that recovery can take place."

The main reason invoked by the British in September to challenge the initiative of the Portuguese authorities, according to Clarence Mitchell, linked to the fact that "police reportedly rejected last year, a proposal by the Crimewatch program of the BBC" to make a reconstruction.

An explanation that did not seem to convince the Portuguese and British investigators because this type of care, as part of a program as Crimewatch, does not have the same goal. If the United Kingdom, it is used to search for evidence, Portugal recourse to this kind of care, as happens elsewhere in the pluparts European countries, serves to consolidate - or not - an investigation that is close to its conclusions.

Why a recovery after a year?

"The reconstruction requested by the Judicial Police is a must for Kate and Gerry McCann, because it is an urgency to the investigation and to his entire raison d'etre because it has several objectives."

The first objective is the first that can be an album of pictures that will then be used to demonstrate how the scene took place.

The second, probably most important, is that of being able to confront and verify the statements of arguidos and witnesses with physical findings made on the spot. Sometimes, for example, have to realize that such testimony does not stick with the configuration of places.

The statements of persons linked to the investigation may vary between only been told investigators in the facilities of the police and the crime scene.

Further information, details, may also return to their memory: arguido or witness can provide information or make further statements.

It can progress enormously in an investigation with the statements made at the crime scene, once the person is expressed in a particular situation… She is forced to repeat the actions it claims to have done, this time under the glances from others and especially that of investigators. "

A reconstruction can also compare the views of various "stakeholders", including the suspect with that of witnesses.

TRIO PREPARING INTIMIDATE ACTION to ROBERT MURAT

Two British and a Spanish national, resident in Spain, were put under close surveillance by authorities after the interception of an electronic mail message with details of preparations for a trip to Praia da Luz for actions as intimidation l Against Robert Murat and his girlfriend Michaela Walczuch.

According to a source from the police, the trio would have known around HELPING TO FIND MADELEINE (HTFM), an organization created on the Internet to help the campaign launched by Kate and Gerry McCann after the disappearance of their daughter.

The three supporters, after taking note of the visit of multimillionaire Brian Kennedy in Praia da Luz for a meeting with Robert Murat, remained convinced that the British would have arguido vital information in case of missing Madeleine.

Contacted by telephone, a head of a HTFM confirmed that none of the three supporters has never been a member of the organization, stressing that there would be only one male member in its tracks. According to the same official, the principal activity of HTFM would be distributing posters research Maddie.

After the fire criminal's car Sergey Malinka, a witness in the case of missing Madeleine and friend of Robert Murat, the police decided to keep the trio under surveillance, without conducting at the moment to any detention.

"We are dealing with three people, aged 20 to 34 years without known criminal history, at least in Spain, but which were heavily influenced by media coverage of the case," said the spokesman stressing that the police "The three persons have no direct or indirect link to the couple McCann."

leigh3 said...

Ellie's child.

I think you are very kind to assist your mother in making a clear statement about her opinions. I'm glad she agrees that child neglect is inexcusable, and there is more to the McCanns than 'meets the eye'.

This is the world weird web, and sometimes honest people are misunderstood; dishonest people are believed.

Am glad your mother persists in trying to do the right thing. That's all we are trying to do.

Best wishes to you, and Ellie. Please forgive my initial suspicion. I apologise.
leigh

Joe said...

If its true that the Tapas 7 will not return to PDL by agreement with the Arguidos so as to stop a reconstruction then it is possibly for fear of G&K getting charged and the whole secret coming out of who was where and did what? If this proves to be the case what then?

leigh3 said...

Honest Joe,

What then? Here's one probability: the police will prosecute for neglect, and related issues, e.g. obstruction.

Joe, there is no way out of this now for the McCanns, their holiday friends, and some of their supporters.

They're busted, one way or another.

leigh3 said...

Hi Ana,
Interesting article. It's also interesting that people often overlook the fact that this is an ongoing investigation by the PJ, assisted by their British colleagues, Interpol, and child protection agencies.

This investigation is also assisted by others who must abide by the laws and rules of their professions.

Nice to see you. Weary now. Off to bed.

Hasta la vista.
xo
leigh

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