18 Jul 2008

PJ INVESTIGATION: INEVITABLE MADELEINE DIED

rocesso: PJ failed to discover the child's corpse Research reports abduction impossible Thirteen months after Madeleine had disappeared, the PJ concludes an investigation which is still marked by uncertainty. The final report shows that today the CM in isolation, does not determine guilt, but leaves new and strong doubts on the thesis presented by the parents of the child English. It describes in detail the steps taken by the researchers - who tried in every way, confirm the hypothesis - and shows that it was theoretically impossible to have occurred. They do not make sense to witnesses, nor how one of the friends says he has seen a man carrying a child around one hour before it was given the warning of the disappearance. It is Janne Tanner, which ensures there surprised the unknown in a street where he also was the father of Maddie and another witness. Both secured after having seen nothing, although the same angle of vision. Tanner, who later made a portrait of the supposed-robot raptor, says that the man took the child in a horizontal position. The size of the window shows that this could only have happened if the child was transported upright. Still, the PJ tried by all means find out who could have taken Maddie. They did dozens of steps to be suspected of sexual abuse. Have been collected on the registered elements that could have been on holiday in the Algarve during that period of time, to see if there any relationship with the small Maddie. They have also investigated the other users of the resort. The PJ entered into more than 400 homes from around the Ocean Club and found nothing. In the window where Kate said that Maddie was abducted were not collected traces of the girl. Only brands that confirmed the mother of the girl's DNA. The final report of PJ shows the details of an investigation that has reached levels never seen. It was investigated a couple allegedly tried to kidnap another child, were past the fine comb the tracks that gave to that Maddie had been sighted in a petrol pump. It operated a crematorium and compared the genetic profile of Madeleine with the body of a child found on the coast of the United States. The PJ investigated a supposed beggar and followed thousands of clues in the most remote places in the world. Debalde. Nothing confirmed this theory of abduction. PJ INVESTIGOU TRANSPORT One of the most lengthy research was to gather and analyse all the information on possible avenues of transport / escape, by land, sea and air. We also explored the images collected by tourists on vacation at the same time, but, again, no decisive found. This information was compiled in an annex all that is beside the process, with another only for those suspected of sexual offences. APJ also has a file of all individuals connected with violent crime, and esmiuçada the lives of those in detail. It was important to determine whether could have any relation with the abduction. MADDIE The final report of PJ does not give suggestions to the prosecutor. But lists the convictions of an investigation that points inevitably to the death of Maddie on May 3 in Praia da Luz MORE OF A TIME The CHORAR The parents of Madeleine never denied that it was a habit the three children being left alone inside the apartment in Praia da Luz while jantavam, as witnessed by several testimonies from officials of the resort, but defended itself saying that every night to visit the children of half in half an hour. The testimony of neighbor Pamela Fenn leaves completely undermine the version of the couple McCann, when assured the PJ have heard Maddie in tears during one hour and 15 minutes two nights before the crime. The British lives in the 1st floor above the apartment occupied by McCann and told investigators that on the night of May 1 last year, to 22.30, heard a child cry, that the sound would be Madeleine. The Judicial Police ensured that the child remained inconsolable one hour and 15 minutes, until their parents arrived. A neighbour heard the noise of the door at 23.45, when Kate and Gerry ended the normal coexistence with friends in Tapas bar - the restaurant of the resort where daily jantavam around the pool. This testimony contradicts the daily routine of visits that the couple was keeping with their children - and McCann is not free from criticism of other British. Yvone Martin, an official of the social security of British holiday in the Light, criticised the behaviour of negligent Kate and Gerry. DOGS FOR DECISIVOS PJ The actions of British dogs specially trained to detect odor of corpses and human blood that was decisive for Kate and Gerry were made defendants. Given the coincidence of the actions of two animals, which sinalizaram the same places and objects related to McCann, the authorities were obliged to admit any involvement of Kate and Gerry in the case of the disappearance of her daughter and provides them to the defendants face elements that could result in their prosecution - as witnesses could not refer to the silence. According cleared the CM, in the final report of investigation prepared by the Judicial Police investigators explain that animals have only signs of detection in places and objects related to the couple McCann: in the apartment where Madeleine disappeared (the fourth of the couple in the room, and be attached to the window side), in the backyard, the vehicle used by the family McCann (rented 24 days after the disappearance of the girl) in two pieces of clothing, Kate and Maddie in the plush - not that Kate dropped in the days following the disappearance . Already in the apartments of friends of McCann, in the village of Luz and on all vehicles used by Robert Murat, the first defendant to be made, nothing was detected by dogs. Faced with such evidence, reinforced by other expert examinations carried out in Portugal and England, PJ questioned Kate and Gerry and represents them as defendants. The animals, race springer spaniel, are widely used in the United Kingdom in search of missing persons or in the search for victims of murder, with positive results. KATE JUSTIFICA ODOR OF DEATH Kate McCann did not deny the fact that two pieces of clothing and plush of their daughter have been flagged by the English dog trained to detect odor of corpses and justified that with his profession. The mother of Madeleine argued that while the medical Health Centre Leicester, has witnessed six cases of death in the days immediately prior to his coming to Portugal on holiday, giving the same justification for the plush, Madeleine, which has accompanied the following months the disappearance of her daughter. 'A SENTI PONTAPÉ RABO NO' (Goncalo Amaral, former coordinator of the process madeleine mccann in the interview TVI) -- You are convinced that Madeleine McCann is dead? Gonçalo Amaral - I have this conviction. It is an interpretation in the light of law based on concrete facts, I have no knowledge of the investigation and carried out in steps. I am convinced that yes, that died there. -- If both parents have been made is because defendants were suspects? -- There were suspects and evidence for the constitution as defendants, moreover, strong elements on two types of crime: concealment of corpses and simulation of crime. That was public and when he left the investigation was in that foot. -- And the crime of abandonment, why parents are not accused? -- The question whether there is through the children were safe or not. It seems obvious, even if their own parents speak of abduction, that there was security. -- Do not be frustrated by no breakthrough in the case? -- Do not feel frustrated by the courts. Ando here for many years and I have great admiration for the judges. I understand how far can have the work of judges. -- Men do not understand why they came though? -- It does not. Respeitei the decision as a professional. There was an understanding between the Portuguese and English police that the girl was dead ed we had to solidify the evidence that existed and proceed to find where is that it could be. -- Do you think the reaction of PJ had to do with the politicization of the case? -- I think there was more political than police. But inside the ground did our best and never felt any defence. -- He felt the pressure of politics? -- I felt was a kick in the tail on 2 October. -- Do you think the normal case be shelved? -- I am not shocked. RECUARAM ENGLISH IN EXAMS It was the most remarkable volte-face in research. The first tests made by the English laboratory, regarded as pioneer in the analysis of trace organic, gave account of the likelihood of waste collected in the car of McCann be compatible with the genetic profile of Madeleine. Months later - after the Judicial Police already has moved to form accused of parents, according to the final report only on evidence that they hid the corpse of the child English - the laboratory was correct to informaçãoinicial. After all, the examinations to vestígiosrecolhidos naRenaultScénic rented by the couple were not conclusive and was not even possible to ascertain the quality of the material, or whether tratavade bodily fluid or a trace of blood. This change science, not yet completely settled, the investigation eventually lead to a dead end. The use of dogs to detect odors from cadaver or waste of blood is not validated in the Portuguese legal system was necessary and scientifically corroborate the markings canine. In addition, the option of the Judicial Police for submission of tests for England had its genesis in a matter of credibility. The researchers did not want that the results could be challenged by the English, then accepting that the remains were examined there. The IDA ENGLAND ACABOU BY SE REVELAR INÚTIL In April this year, Paulo Rebelo and two of the researchers of the process in which they tried to understand the contours of the disappearance of Madeleine Leicester were now investigating the English holiday on the beach of Light with the couple McCann. It is known now by the final report that nothing conclusive was found of such interrogations. The PJ out there who maintained close collaboration with local police, but anticipates that the testimony brought nothing new. The friends of McCann confined themselves to confirm what had already said in previous interrogations and PJ came out empty-handed this city north of London. CHANGE PauloRebelo, new leader of the research after the departure of Gonçalo Amaral, was repeatedly in the apartment of the Ocean Club, where they were collected the most varied traces. He was also in England, where witnesses heard. FIGURES 443 interrogations door to door in the Ocean Club apartments, made by PJ, are part of a total two million steps, formal and informal, carried out in research. 134 officials of the resort were heard by the inspectors in the days after the crime. The PJ also heard the 12 soldiers who passed by the GNR apartment the night of May 3. 130 elements police and Civil Protection were involved in the first 24 hours of searching. The following day the figure rose to 300. 188 boxes of trash were issued to fine comb in Praia da Luz, Lagos, in an attempt to find the body of Madeleine. 30 square kilometres is the area that the searches were extended to all land forces in the first days, in addition to the Maritime Police. NOTES 3 May 2007: DESAPARECE Between 21.05 and 22.00, Madeleine Beth McCann, of three years, disappeared from the apartment of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz 17.30 only after the parents contacted with girl. 14 May: FIRST SUSPEITO The British Robert Murat is questioned and is accused. The PJ has made home visits and telephone tapping, but never managed to relate it with the crime being investigated. 4 IN AUGUST: BLOOD Two sniffer dogs, from England, detect odor of corpses and traces of blood in the apartment, in the backyard, in clothes from Kate. 11 OF AUGUST: MORTA One hundred days after the disappearance of Madeleine, and after searches with dogs in England, researchers admit publicly that the child may be dead. 7 DE SETEMEBTO: defendants Based on the performance of the team cinotécnica, Kate and Gerry McCann are again questioned by the Judicial and they also made defendants. 29 NOVEMBER: TEST OF DNA Technical Portuguese and English shall meet at the headquarters of Leicestershire Police to discuss the results of DNA tests on traces collected in the investigation. 20 January 2008: PORTRAIT The couple McCann discloses a portrait-robot on the basis of testimony. Later turned out to the man in question was not involved in the crime. VESTÍGIOS: DELAY The remains of the vehicle used by McCann were collected in August 2007. The results of the examinations should only take a few weeks. IML: TESTS IN PORTUGAL The first traces collected by the investigation were sent to the IML. The tests were not conclusive and also not helped the clarification.

982 comments:

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viv said...

Hi all

This report is from Correio de Manha on 5 July and shows the vast researches, two million!! that the PJ conducted, among other things, trying to prove the parents abduction theory. It has inevitably reached the conclusion Madeleine died in the apartment. So, Leicester Police are faced with an English couple who have perpetuated the most massive fraud in the name of their dead daughter. Anyone who believes they will not be pursued for this is deluded IMO!

Viv x

J J said...

Viv
I really hope you are right!!

Not long to wait now.

Zodiac said...

Viv,

I hope you are right also.

Dylan,

I've changed from my usual red wine. I find Cristal does not make me foggy or give me hangover. All thanks to those bin liners @ 50 quid a go. Sell 3 and you can buy a luvvely bottle of the bubbly stuff.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

I must learn to keep the main blog page on my screen rather than the Comments window then I might realise that a new thread had started.

southerncross said...

Evening all

Viv, thanks for this article and I have emailed you .

bath theory said...

:)

Time is a funny thing and as we have all said before it has a funny way of rising to the surface.

dylan said...

Zodiac - I think I had a bit too much of something last night!!! Read my post of around midnight. What a load of rubbish!!! loool!

Speaking of which, this is a bit spooky. I read in the Times today that by the end of the year, Nintendo may release a video game that works by "reading your thoughts". It went on to say that the police are interested in using it as a replacement to lie detector tests. 1984 here we come (or went) and McCanns watch out. Your brains signals do not deceive :)

Viv, thanks for the article. I think it looks fairly hopeful for a prosecution in this country. I don't care what connections they have and I don't think our justice system does too. We are not a country who lets people get away with murder, whatever their social status is. It's the same as our stance on terrorism, no matter how much we want to save our hostages, we won't set a precedent as more hostages will be taken knowing we will pay up. If the police believe Maddie died that night, to do nothing about it would send out waves of completely the wrong frequency, if you know what I mean.

LGC, yes that's what I've always thought about Murat. I just can't be sure.

xx

lizzy said...

H Dylan,
Do you believe they will face justice in this country, I hope you are right, after reading on the 3 Arguidos reports from the Portuguese papers, I htink they will walk free from any charge from all this, I believe that the only way justice may be known and perhaps partially is via Amarals book. Did you read today the British police are trying to stop the judge revealing everythimg whent he secrecy is lifted particularly the dna results from the FSSmm it is implied in the report that this might implicate the Mccanns and therefore they want it supressing....I hope you are right and im wrong though...Lizzy

lizzy said...

Hi Dylan,
Hope you understand my message as typing is terrible....Lizzy

dylan said...

Hiya Lizzy,

Good to 'see' you.

I think that the fact that they don't want anything releasing after the secrecy is over can only be a good thing. Why would they want it kept hush, hush if nothing is going to be done? Maybe I'm just being optomistic but I really want justice for Madeleine and these two get away with it then there's no justice for the poor little girl and I fear others may try the same thing.

How are you? xx

lizzy said...

Hi Dylan,
Am fine thanks and yourself?
I may be being unduly pessimistic but the way it was reported on the 3 Arguidos that the British police wanted the dna results about drugs found in maddie's hair and other results from the FSS kept secret, the article was inferring that this ws because if these results were allowed to be released by the judge when the secrecy is lifted, it would portray the Mccanns in a bad light, as it should. I think they are implying it is for the Mccanns benefit, I personally do think they will walk away from this unscathed but really hope im wrong, but the press in Portugal have reports to that effect also.
Lizzy

docmac said...

Oh, here you are, blush! I just posted on the other thread, so re-post it here.

Oh fantastic, fantastic, fantastic! I had lost the link to this video. Read this page from the DM, but then take a look at the video at the bottom of the article! If you have not seen 'The Battle of Kruger" before you will be astounded! You'll also get to hear some Afrikaans :-))

Lovely, made me cry all over again. Oh dear! Africa, I'm loving it.

Ecolab said...

Sitting here looking at the tennisball - photo at this little smiling girl.

Thinking at her long gone future?

How innocent and childish she looks, there under her lovely pinky sunhat.

She is smiling in a funny secret way : ”Look how many tennisballs I can carry!”

You hardly do`nt see all the bruises!

Madeleines sunhat looks lovely on her smiling face.

It fits her exactly.

She must have been very proud, when she had it!

Children do!

She might even have been sleeping with it?
That`s the way children do.


How cruel to hand it to Amelie.
But what to expect, when you are too mean to pay 5 euro for a sitter?


”Give the damn sunhat to the sister”-
"After all it did cost 5 euro!"

dylan said...

OK Lizzy,

I see what you mean. No that doesn't look good does it? I really hope that they don't get away with it if, as we suspect, they know Maddie is gone. I cannot for the life of me understand why these two have been afforded such special treatment and protection. I find it very frightening.

I am fine too, thank you. Minor blip last night when I had had a wee bit too much to drink. Everything seems like such a great idea when i've had a few! I feel like an idiot - blush!! :))) xx

Stonemaid said...

Hi Lizzy - I can't help myself from agreeing with you. I think these people have some sort of teflon protection which will see them through, virtually unscathed. Like you, I really hope I am wrong. It just seems as though the PJ have masses of evidence of guilt on the part of the parents, but do not seem to have sufficient proof to bring a prosecution. I didn't fully understand about the DNA evidence which seemed to be confirming Madeleine's death, but then was completely negated by later assessments. I don't get it - surely laboratory results are definitive results and cannot then be said to prove nothing surely?

I don't feel very encouraged, but so very much hope that we will receive good news from Portugal very soon.

Stonemaid

dylan said...

Docmac,

What a stunning video! I was about to stop it as I didn't want to see the poor wee thing being eaten but then the buffalos came back and rescued it. Incredible! I thought that nature being nature, it would have been abandoned as part of the process of natural selection. Parental responsibilty and protection is clearly much better with htses animals than with a certain two people I will not name!

Stonemaid, I think the second lot of DNA results were said to be 'inconclusive'. It is almost as if a u-turn on the first results took place which is all very fishy. There is a lot going on in the McCann's favour that we don't know about IMO & it makes me sick.

xx

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Doc Mac

Fantastic video !

docmac said...

Yeah it's great, isn't it Dyl. A family out and 'into' their friends, WITH their children. Loved the way that bull shows the youngster the way to safety with just a quick toss of the head.

Buffalo family and friends 10/10.

McCann family and friends 0/10.

docmac said...

Glad you enjoyed it, ICTOAN. I am off to the land of nod and apologise for not noticing you there! See you tomorrow, in between overs at Headingly :-)

dylan said...

Off to bed now. It is nice that I will actually have remembered going to bed in the morning. JaneG&T - eat your heart out!

Nite folks xx

viv said...

Hiya all

I am sure Claudia will not mind me copying this from her blog from today's print edition of Correio de Manha. It will be seen Stuart Prior and I assume another senior officer (maybe even The Chief Constable again!) together with perhaps a Crown Prosecution lawyer have sought to argue that certain aspects of the McCann file should not be made public due to the damage this would cause to the ongoing investigation against the McCanns. I really hope this does not prove fatal! As I have previously explained, if vital evidence to be used in a forthcoming trial gets put into the public domain ahead of any trial, that could enable Kate and Gerry McCann to claim they could not get a fair trial. This would be devastating if they are able to successfully make this plea as a result of evidence being disclosed.

I hope that a proper solution ensues but the fact that Stuart Prior and Co are there in Portugal demonstrates how seriously they view this matter and how much they must want to prosecute Kate and Gerry!

It will be seen that the British Officer assigned to assist the PJ entirely agreed that Madeleine is dead and that her body may have been thrown into the sea as other Portuguese officers have stated. Hence Gerry's repugnant comment..."well find the body and prove we killed her" in the Atlantic Ocean! Poor little Madeleine, no wonder our police fight to bring this couple to justice!

Viv x


Maybe at this hour is already the east, but in any case here vai:

McCanns want to hide the evidence from laboratory Birmingham

A magistrate and two policemen, including Stuart Prior, responsible for liaison with PJ, were at the Court of Portimão, yesterday, trying to convince the public prosecutor and prosecutor Magellan Menezes not to release the entire process of disappearance of Madeleine from the judicial secrecy . One of the things that the English want is that the preliminary report of the Birmingham laboratory, which mentions that "15 of the 19 genetic markers that were found in a waste that was collected from the boot of the car the couple, are a game [with children Missing] "is not made public. Its pretention was denied.

Also the waste that was collected behind the sofa, according to the first report, "coincide with the corresponding components of the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann, who led the police Portuguese and English also the liaison officer to plea their suspicions that the 5.30 child died between 10 am he, in the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, and that the body was carried in the car that was rented by the parents 22 days later.

With the lifting of the secrecy order in the next week, some of these documents can be made public. CM knows that the grounds for the preliminary report, combined the elements that were collected by the investigation, however, led authorities to the path of parents as suspicious the death of the child. Kate and Gerry McCann later claimed that there was no evidence against them, but another report, signed by Mark Harrisom, the English police who was appointed to help the Portuguese authorities, also said adamant that the girl was dead. The same official English acknowledged the possibility that the body of Madeleine little had been thrown into the sea, and also defended the potential of dogs, which are specialists in detecting smell of corpses and blood.

Details

Extract of hair. Madeleine McCann of the DNA was extracted from various waste that was collected in the apartment. Among them, the hair that was found with the girl of brush, and also that saliva was collected from the pillow.

19. In Portugal, the collection of 19 genetic markers is required for the determination of paternity. But in other countries such as USA, only 12 are required.

15. About the waste that was collected from the boot of the vehicle rented after the disappearance of 15 genetic markers are identical to those found Madeleine.

Traces of a crime

Two dogs that are specially trained to assist in criminal investigation body odour detected in the McCanns' fourth in the living room, to Kate's clothing, the girl with the toy and soft on the car key, as well as traces of blood in the car and start in the apartment's living room.

Theoretical possible contamination

The second report of the English laboratory, which was sent after the relatives of the child were made defendants, raises theoretical questions that will ultimately undo the initial findings.

The technicians say that if the waste that was collected are from a single source, then they belong to Madeleine. But if they were contaminated with DNA or Kate Gerry (showing genetic similarities because they are the biological parents), they may not belong to the child. Beyond that, according to experts, the results are so complex that do not allow an absolute reading.

British technique can be verified

The technique that was used by English experts to verify the content of waste that was collected from the McCanns' apartment and car is one of the most sophisticated in the world.

It is used in that country and the United States, since it allows the extraction of DNA from very low profiles waste by increasing the amplification cycles. Due to the fact that it requires very expensive for the material, and leads to results that are difficult to decode, this technique not won followers in Europe yet.

In these reports, which were sent to the Judiciary Police months apart from each other, they start by explaining the technique that is used, and claim that they used a reference sample of DNA Madeleine McCann. This sample was obtained from "that existed saliva stains on the pillowcase."

DNA from the rest of the family was also checked because they contain similar genetic markers and to avoid any confusion with the results.

Throughout the 22 pages of the report, which was signed by the same expert in both cases is common to the specialist in microbiology and biochemistry to admit that the complexity of data does not allow a correct reading.

However, the laboratory has duplication of waste, a fact that makes it possible for those results to be challenged by the Portuguese Forensic Medicine experts.

According to what our newspaper was able to establish, some issues are still in the air and the planned closing on Monday is certainly not vai need them. Namely, the motive for the test results to have had several months to be brought to the attention of the authorities, and they have been altered, so substantial.

It should also be noted that separate tests were made later, which led other reports - all of them had remained inconclusive.

Gerry is the father

The possibility, which was advanced by a Portuguese newspaper, was never under investigation. Gerry's is Maddie and the twins' biological father, according to which genetic profiles of family members were able to confirm.

Murat | Compensation - Murat vai receive 757 thousand euros from British newspapers yesterday acknowledged that they had published false and defamatory stories about him.

Archiving | Evidence - The closing of the process, to be announced on Monday, does not mean that the case vai be buried. It can be reopened if new evidence appears.

McCanns | Arguidos - If there is a final dispatch, Kate and Gerry remain as defendants. Today, Robert Murat also maintains the same status.

viv said...

Big time fraud does not pay, no matter who you are!

July 19, 2008

Police officer must repay £100,000 in card fraudHome Staff
A former senior police officer who used his force credit card to buy goods for himself was ordered to pay nearly £100,000 at a confiscation hearing.

Detective Chief Inspector Peter Salkeld, 42, who is serving a three-year prison sentence for theft, obtaining property by deception and obtaining a money transfer by deception, was also ordered to pay £5,000 in costs by Maidstone Crown Court.

He used his force credit card to buy goods, including a mini-fridge and a designer watch and must also pay £989.18 to Sussex Police. Salkeld, who resigned from his senior role in the South East Regional Intelligence Unit, also took out a £1,100 grant from the Sussex Police Welfare Fund, which he spent on caravanning equipment.

David Walbank, on behalf of the Crown, said the funds would be taken from Salkeld’s share of the £250,000 house he owns with his wife in Shoreham, West Sussex.

Salkeld was found guilty of 11 counts of theft, obtaining property by deception and obtaining a money transfer by deception. He was cleared of a further five counts of theft and obtaining property by deception.

Niki said...

Oh my God! Have you seen this?!?

19/07/08
English Ignored Complaint for Paedophilia Against One of the McCanns Friends



Statements: Doctors Friends of the McCanns talked with the British Police


English ignored complaint for paedophilia against one of the McCanns Friends


Dave Payne, one of the friends of the McCann who were vacationing in the Algarve on the 3rd of May last year, when Madeleine disappeared, was suspected for paedophile behaviour.


Read all the details of this case on Saturdays edition of the newspaper Correio da Manhã.

Source: Correio da Manhã 19 July 08

Update will folow as soon as we get our hands on the paper edition.

Who is David Payne?

DAVID AND FIONA PAYNE (nee Webster) (Aged 41 and 34 respectively)

David Anthony Payne is a senior research fellow in cardiovascular sciences at Leicester University and a doctor. Dr Fiona Payne and her husband David were among those who stayed on in the Algarve to support the McCanns for several weeks after the abduction. It was David Payne who organised the group’s holidays at Praia de Luz. The reservation was made over the internet, after a good experience with the Ocean Club’s group in Greece. This was the second time that David visited Portugal. The first time was eleven years ago, before he got married. David and Fiona have been together for seven years and they have two children. They were the only ones in the group who used the babyphone system to keep watch over the children during dinner. Fiona Payne, born in Bedford in 1972, was back in the Algarve on July 11, along with Rachel Oldfield and Russell O’Brien, in order to give their third deposition to the PJ.

Note that David Payne is also very similar to Robert Murat, at a distance and certainly at night time we could say almost that David Payne is Murat's look a like. See for yourself

http://www.joana-morais.blogspot.com/

librarising said...

Opens up a dreadful scenario doesn't it?

Docmac, is this what you hinted at having heard from a contact all those months ago?

ICantThinkOfAName said...

It will be interesting to see if Payne sues for libel. In his profession can he afford not to if the "allegations" are untrue.

marga said...

I'm completely speechless!

Things are getting really disturbing and the next week will indeed have the effects of the tsunami Cláudia keeps repeating.

marga said...

It would also be interesting to see if clarrie comes to speak about smears to defend the guy.

I don't believe CdM would print this story at this stage if it wasn't true.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

bibi said early this morning on 3A

Can we be sure that this is not McScam spin to cast doubt on Monday's revelations. Paynes not so pally with McScams now. They couldn't stitch Murat up so now they doing it to his lookalike. Seems dodgy to me. Remember, Murat was accused of having paedophile tendencies (computer etc).

librarising said...

This must surely ruin Payne's life whether true or not... libel suit or not this kind of mud sticks.

If it's true it's the least he deserves...

If it isn't true, then who threw the mud?

marga said...

It seems that 12 days after Maddie disappearance a couple who knows the Paynes had given the BR police this information on his paedo tendencies. I also remember reading in the MF sth related to Jon Corner that produced a film on sth related to this subject.

As we keep saying in PT " não há fumo sem fogo". There is no smoke without fire.

I'm shocked.

librarising said...

yes marga - might not be payne who's on fire though. Wonder what Claudia meant? - and docmac all those months ago? If I had an inkling of a word about something like this I would not want to post it all over forums.

librarising said...

ps - NOT trying to put pressure on here!

marga said...

ICTON,Libra,

If it was sth printed by 24H or even the Expresso, I believe it could be a leak from the McScums, but as it is in CdM I have my doubts. However, we have always been bombarded wit counterinformation and rubbish all over these months that everything is possible...

marga said...

Libra,


when I referred to the tsunami , I was referring to all the revelations we will soon have. Not on this particular matter which I must confess never crossed my mind.

marga said...

To be quite honest I find it abhorrent.However,this case has always been associated to this type of crime.

librarising said...

yes. Stranger abduction is much much rarer than paedophile activity. How desperately sad.

Niki said...

While we wait for translation of the article, this is what Mccannfiles writes about Payne:

David Payne, husband of Dr Fiona Payne, does not appear to have taken part in any of the alleged checks on the night of May 3rd. It is believed that the Payne's were the only parents using a listening device to check on their children.

It is reported that Mr Payne was playing in a tennis competition, which included Gerry, on the early evening of May 3rd. It is alleged that when he had been eliminated from the competition, Gerry asked him to pop into their apartment and check on Kate. Reports state that Mr Payne saw Madeleine being put to bed, by Kate, at 6.30pm. If true, this would make David Payne the last 'independent' witness to see Madeleine before her disappearance.

Commenting on the fact that the McCanns had been made offical suspects, he said: "We know they didn't do it. One of our party saw Madeleine being abducted. We were waiting for something to happen but didn't in our worst nightmare think it would be this."

Mr Payne is a Senior Research Fellow in cardiovascular sciences at Leicester University. This is not a permanent position, normally expected to last for 5/6 years, after which he can apply for consultant positions.

He helped run the 'Find Madeleine' campaign after May 3.

When contacted by Portuguese newspaper, Sol, David Payne said: "We have a pact. This is our matter only. It is nobody else's business."

Minutes after trying to contact Kate, Gerry, in a fury, called the Sol journalist: "What do you think you are doing? Do you think you’re better than the Portuguese police? I’m going to forward your contact to PJ and you will have to explain yourselves."

marga said...

Have to go now. The weather is so hot here that we must do everything out in the morning to avoid the heat.

Libra,
agree with you. If this is not true then such a news will undoubtfully ruin one's person life.

marga said...

* one person's life

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Another "lift" from 3A, by sentinel

"maybe payne leaked it himself so that he could sue them."

It must be galling for other members of the T9 to see all these libel damages flying about.

Niki said...

Ok, here is the article translated by Astro.

Post subject: From Astro - translation of today's CdM, part IPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:30 am


Doctor friends of the McCanns spoke to the English police

Payne suspected of paedophilia

Twelve days after Maddie disappeared, a couple revealed the strange behaviour of one of the group’s members. Testimonies only reached the Judiciária in January this year

David Payne, one of the McCanns’ friends that were on holidays in the Algarve on the 3rd of May last year, when Madeleine disappeared, was suspected of paedophile behaviours.

The accusations were brought by a couple of friends that spent their holidays with part of the group in the summer of 2005 – themselves also English doctors. Twelve days after the British girl disappeared, Katherina and Arul could no longer keep the secret that had bothered them for two years and went to the police to make a statement. They revealed two conversations between Dave and Gerry, during which both revealed suspicious behaviour and indiciated sex with minors.

According to what CM was able to establish, the depositions were given on the 16th of May. But they only entered the process in January 2008 and are included in the 13th volume of the process files. At that point in time, Kate and Gerry were already arguidos, the rogatory letters had already been issued and the English, including Dave, showed their reluctance in returning to Portugal.

Touching the nipple

Katherina made a statement that was eight pages long. She reported holidays in Mallorca with several English [people], including the McCanns and the Paynes. Two incidents left her with serious doubts about the friends’ behaviour and lead her to create suspicions that were never confirmed.

The first one happened on a night when Gerry and Dave were talking about Maddie. Katherina does not know what they were saying but she remembers that Dave sucked on his fingers, pushing them into the mouth and pulling them out again, while his other hand traced a circle around the nipple, with a circular movement over the clothes. “That was done in a provocative manner”, recalls Katherina, who says that it stuck to her memory.

Days later, the scene repeated itself. The doctor saw Dave making the same gestures again, while he talked about his own daughter. Scared, Katherina said nothing about the incident. But she took special caution, asking her husband never to let the doctor come close to the bathroom when her daughter was having a bath.

Arul went to the police to tell the same story. Katherina’s companion confirmed the gestures that were made by Dave during the conversation with Gerry but asserted that he wasn’t aware that they were talking about Maddie. He did find the behaviour in extremely bad taste, but didn’t see it being repeated.

The incident ended up forgotten in his memory and it was only the disappearance of Madeleine, who had also been with them on the Mallorca vacation, that revived it.

During the deposition, Katherina went even further and said she had associated the gestures to someone who likes to watch child pornography. “I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a different manner”, she concluded.

Friends from school days

Arul and Kate were friends from their school days. They have known each other for approximately 20 years and that was the motive that led the couple to accompany the McCanns on their holidays to Mallorca. Arul and Katherina did not know Fiona and Dave and they only met again once, during a dinner that gathered several couples. When Maddie disappeared from the Ocean Club, Katherina remembered the incident in Mallorca. And she immediately tried to verify whether Dave had again been accompanying the McCann couple, as the suspicions about his behaviour still stood. In the deposition that was made to the English police, Katherina says she decided to give a statement when she saw the tv images. Dave was among the same holiday group.

Doubts in the case

Irishman not heard – An Irishman who was spending holidays in Praia da Luz also went to the English police to report that on the night of the 3rd of May he saw Gerry carrying Madeleine towards the beach. He was never heard through a rogatory letter.

Sending delayed – The difference between the date when the deposition was obtained and the time when it was sent is not explained in the process.CM knows that the English authorities did not provide an explanation, either.

Bank account info – The PJ tried to know the bank account situation of every element of the group, in order to search for possible motives for the crime. But the English answers were laconic and did not help the investigation.

Life stories – The life stories of Gerry and Kate McCann remain unknown. The PJ tried to verify whether Maddie’s mother suffered from depression but never received her clinical records, because the judge did not allow it.



source: Correio da Manhã 19.07.2008, paper edition

Cláudia said...

This is just the beginning. Once the files are made public, there's no stopping...

Cláudia said...

There is an article today, on Público newspaper saying that the British Police does not want the names of several british paedos, which were checked when Madeleine 'vanished' made public. And then the article in Correio da Manhã...

docmac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ICantThinkOfAName said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cláudia said...

What's going on? Do we have a 'spy'?

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Doc Mac ? Claudia

Read 3A Payne thread page 11

Pogasca 10.07

Concentrate on the last sentence.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.

Cláudia said...

ICTOAN, can't you copy paste the article, please?

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Claudia

"A poster called Docmac, who know claims to be Gallstone. was widely quoted implying heavily that Oldfield had told him (or a friend) that he realised Madeleine was dead and that O'Brien was the undertaker. Whether he reported this to the authorities, I don't know. But he now seems more interested in discussing mobile phones on this site - a curious turn of events."


As far as I know the talk about Phones has been since the site became readers only.

Cláudia said...

ICTOAN, I already read it.

Well, I can't speak for Doc, but I don't think he'll be worried.

-----------------------------------------------

Pogacsa

A poster called Docmac, who know claims to be Gallstone. was widely quoted implying heavily that Oldfield had told him (or a friend) that he realised Madeleine was dead and that O'Brien was the undertaker. Whether he reported this to the authorities, I don't know. But he now seems more interested in discussing mobile phones on this site - a curious turn of events.

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:07 am

Cláudia said...

TCTOAN, the poster said 'on this site'. Maybe Doc has discussed mobiles on the 3 As? Doc, are you around???

ICantThinkOfAName said...

OK I'm paranoid. Always was a sucker for conspiracy stories.

Viv If you haven't already seen my e-mail this has been the subject thought it pre-dates Doc mac's post.

Cláudia said...

To be honest that is one of the reasons why I think having an open blog is better. There is no speculation, people know that what they say is out there and write in a more responsible way and people don't have to worry if what they say is being copy pasted by a troll. But I know that Viv feels strongly about this and that she has good reasons to have made this decision. I just hope that soon the world will be able to 'hear' our 'uncomfortable' voices again.

Cláudia said...

ICTOAN, I'm not saying you're paranoid. Don't get me wrong. I think it's very likely. I just also think that maybe Doc has written about mobiles on the 3 As. When Doc stops by he'll explain it better.
It's SO hot here.
I already had a couple of shocked comments on my blog because of the article in Correio da Manhã. People are wondering why would CdM risk a lawsuit because of this. I maintain what I've been saying for many months: there is a tsunami on the way. And once the files become public, no spin can stop many thirsty investigative journalists. Next week will be hot, hot, hot. And I don't mean because of the weather.

southerncross said...

Afternoon everyone
ICTOAN, I have read that poster's sarcastic comments about docmac on the 3A's. I think the poster referred to posts on the 3A.

Cláudia said...

Southerncross, hi. I hope so.
But do not fool yourself. I'm sure that poster is an 'old' friend of ours, probably from DE times.

Cláudia said...

"Wos 'appenin'??
by vee8 Today at 1:36 pm

In Portugal? I got a snippit about it on another forum, but I have no idea what? Is this the storm that someone has been dropping hints about on here? Someone tell me, I need to know!! "

Panic setting in. Tee hee hee

southerncross said...

Hi Claudia

I checked and doc did make two posts re cell phones there. :)

That specific poster certainly has a very "pro" (quite aggresive)stance and I think you are right-a different name but a very familiar persona is my guess

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Thanks SC

Claudia
It was me, not you that suggested paranoia. So don't worrfy on that score.

BTW the posters on 3A (including Ironside) are discussing a link between Gerry, Payne & Madeleine.

Its about 20 degrees and overcast her on the South Coast of England.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

If there is even a hint of truth in all this then I worry even more for Amelie.

southerncross said...

ICTOAN

I noticed that some posters on the 3A's immediately jump on the bandwagon when docmac is mentioned. Those posters usually become quite sarcastic and aggressive. Docmac, you certainly have some of them very worried!

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Claudia

On 3A there is a reproduction of a page from what I think is a Portugese publication with a photo (background looks English) of the wonder couple and she appears to have a black eye.

The only information with is is 'Courtesy of Carocha'

I don't know if this is a magazine or a poster.

Can you throw any light on the subject?

Cláudia said...

Southerncross, I'm glad he did! :-)

ICTOAN, with all this, all of us get sometimes paranoid. It's normal and sometimes justified. :-)

It's normal that the pros hate Doc and Viv the most. They have been the loudest voices in defending Madeleine and making sure her parents are made to pay for what their reckless behaviour has caused.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

SC

The positive things about Doc seem to come from Ironside. I would expect that anyway.

Cláudia said...

ICTOAN, I'm sorry, but can you give me the link so I can check? Carocha must be a nickname.

Cláudia said...

Carocha is a beetle. Or a Volkswagen Beetle. :-)

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Claudia

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18552&st=0&sk=
t&sd=a&start=375

marga said...

Cláudia,

Olá amiga!

You are right re the tsunami. Today's news is really shocking.
thanks God that Br lady Yvonne is someone decent and reported authorities in a very professional way not fearing possible consequences or retalliation.

Cláudia said...

ICTOAN, I've seen that photp before and I don't remember that mark. It may be because of the paper. A smudge or something.
The interesting part is the content which has to do with today's article in Correio da Manhã..

Cláudia said...

Olá, Marga.
Personally, I think this is just the beginning. When the files become open, oh boy...

marga said...

*reported every detail to authorities

marga said...

(...)They revealed two conversations between Dave and Gerry, during which both revealed suspicious behaviour and indiciated sex with minors(..)

Both?

OMG this is sth I would never ever think of possible to happen in this case.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

I've already siad I'm a sucker for conspiracy theories so I can say now that I don't believe that the tsunami will hit the UK as the press will still either be silent or continue their love-in with the McCanns.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Sorry that should have been 'said' in the first line. I blame the wheat beer.

bath theory said...

We all feel something in the gut about Gerry McCann. It is hard to comment with 100 per cent accuracy in life but judgements have to be made in order to move about our daily business. No survey has ever recorded how many peopel get burnt hands when they place them in a fire for one minute. WE just know it based on our assumption which is based on known facts and realities of life.

The fact that a couple who have previously been on holiday with him have apparently made such an allegation is surely proof on its own to take this into a court and cross examine GM + KM as best as can be - at some point. Time must be used to seek Justice for Madeleine.

I agree with Claudia that Monday's news is not going to be a nice cushy twee number helping the McCanns. I too believe (IMO) that it will open up all sorts of issues that over time will be followed up.

J J said...

Hello everyone.
I just wanted to say I've got my fingers and everything else crossed for Madeleine on Monday.
I hope you're all still talking to me after yesterday.

bath theory said...

ICTOAN - good point to remind us that Payne looked very much like Murat

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

All I can say is OMG! I feel sick.

Zodiac said...

Hi JJ.

Cláudia said...

JJ, of course.
ICTOAN, that's exactlty why blogs have been absolutely essential in this case. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but the British press just cannot be trusted in this case. And I apologise in advance for my opinion.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Claudia

I have no illusions about the press,

As a Fire Officer I remember many occasions when information I gave to reporters after fires etc. were twisted. That was only local paper reporters the nationals are much worse.

J J said...

Thanks folks.

Zodiac said...

Can anyone remember an interview where they were asked about their friends and they said something like they trust them 100%, it might have been an interview with Jane Hill. I remember thinking FFS your kid is missing surely everyone is a suspect friend or not!

Cláudia said...

Zodiac, I remember it and I remember saying to my parents: if it was my child missing I would suspect even my own shadow. Have no idea how they can say they trust all their friends 100%. Unless, of course, they do know what happened...

Cláudia said...

ICTOAN, exactly.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Zodiac

There are mentions of the interview on 3A today although I don't remember the source being mentioned.

I think at least one poster made the point (my wording) "it depends on what they are trusted with".

bath theory said...

Claudia , that is exactly why a lot of people queried this lot early on. I completely agree with your words

Your words '...if it was my child missing I would suspect even my own shadow. Have no idea how they can say they trust all their friends 100%. Unless, of course, they do know what happened...'

bath theory said...

In terms of trusting press remember that even today at a local level you can pay to get a story in a paper. It is not a big step to think that certain stories placed in the local or national press could well have involved amounts of money being exchanged.
Journalists have to pay bills like everyone else and in general the ethics and morals are usually pretty low in the industry.

bath theory said...

And remember what the local child abuse protection team from the borough told us at school last autumn that 1 in 8 pupils have been abused by the time they reach secondary school ie age 11.

+ they told us a doctor from one of the borough's main hospitals had recently been put in prison for abuse. Thus reminding us it is something that it reaches all levels of social groupings.

+ they told us that it is usually a parent that has abused the child. The circle of trust for a child becomes the circle of probability of an abuser. Parent, close relative, close friend etc

bath theory said...

I shall depart as going to theatre tonight. goodnight all

ICantThinkOfAName said...

BT

It's great to get your contributions a one who has his finger on the pulse, so to speak.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Could Madeleine crying out 'Daddy' and over an hours 'sobbing" as heard by Mrs F have been for a different reason than that we have supposed up to now?

Zodiac said...

ICTOAN,

That poor little soul what has she suffered.

If these allegations are not true it will have the potential to ruin that mans career, life whatever. Perhaps his wife should have thought about that. Karma perhaps.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Zodiac

I've run out of compassion for anyone but Madeleine

Cláudia said...

It is my opinion that although Correio da Manhã has a corageous take on this, they are not fools. They do not say if these allegations are true or not. They are just reporting that the statement of the witness who aparrently made this accusations is in the files. And if it is, the Tapas can't do anything about it because Correio da Manhã will be right. Remember when I said that the opening of the files would be a nightmare for those who have things to hide?

ICantThinkOfAName said...

and the Twins of course.

Zodiac said...

Claudia,

Do you have any idea how the announcement will be made on Monday, time etc. My hubby has informed me he has decided to take this week off to spend time with me...aaargh! I also think it is courageous of CdM for reporting the statement of witness. How must those people feel if they did witness that, I feel sick reading about it.

ICTOAN,

I have never had any compassion for any of the selfish child neglectors. Karma I think is in action. They deserve whatever comes their way, imo.

Zodiac said...

FROM IRONSIDE 3 A's


Have had lunch with some Guardia Civil...Mark 55' hated me for this but a couple of things that have been confirmed ,yet again.. I am Not COLDWATER nor do I claim to be a person with inside information....

However, yes DNA from Birmingham has been checked in a lab here in spain.. It is also true that someone from PJ is keeping a close eye on one of the tapas in England.. I do not know who this person is but they have been followed for months....long before January...The Guardias I know obviously do not know who this person is., even if they did they would not tell me. Metodo they have said are being investigated for tax evasion....Take that anyway you want but things are happening and spain are very much involved..The car is pivotal to the investigation...Sorry could not find out more...








Below is link to the above post:

http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18590

Cláudia said...

Zodiac, I believe it will be in the afternoon.
I don't want to disappoint anyone, but the case will be most likely shelved. However, there may be a little surprise still to come. At least I've had some indications pointing towards the possibility of it. Have been trying to confirm those indications but haven't been able to.

Zodiac said...

Claudia,

Thanks.

Cláudia said...

Zodiac, you're welcome.

Niki said...

Hi all. Just popping back in to read the rest of the CM - article. It's complete here:

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/07/english-ignored-complaint-for.html

I hope this speculations of sexual abuse are wrong, but can't get out of my head what Viv and Eco has said for months...

Cláudia said...

Niki, it's also on my blog. I have posted the past interesting articles from Corrio da Manhã there.

Niki said...

Sorry Claudia,

did scroll through previous post, but could not see that anyone had posted the full article or link....
I am in a bit of a hurry, and actually have to run again.... Thats summer in Greece...running, running, running...

Will look in on your blog tomorrow:)
Have a nice evening:)

Cláudia said...

Niki, hot, hot, hot here too.
Read you tomorrow!

librarising said...

Thank you docmac, sorry it took me so long to read the post.

ICTOAN, not sure what's worrying you?

LGC had a discussion with gallstone on the 3As about mobiles. Pogacsa seems to think gallstone is docmac, I guess.

Docmac your news is astonishing, thank you for sharing it. As you might know I'm now a mod on the 3As. This is a closed blog for Viv's own reasons, good ones I feel. Would you like me to keep the news withing this blog, or to tell the mods on the 3As, or just plain post it on the 3As... I will do whichever you say.

Thanks again.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

librarising

Thank you for that. I always start from the worst scenario.

BTW Docmac hasn't appeared since that posting.

librarising said...

...wise to be cautious, and Claudia is right that a closed blog may well generate both paranoia and perhaps a tendency to say too much. I will keep doc's news to myself and suggest others do, within this blog, till he makes clear whether he'd like it to leak out or not.

librarising said...

...and there's also Viv's wishes to consider, the blog now being private. I intend to respect those too.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

librarising

I remember that he posted something the other day more innocuous and asked Viv to delete it if the blog was ever opened up again.

docmac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
docmac said...

ICTOAN

I would have done the same with this info. I had not realised the story had been picked up so widely and would not ordinarily have made that post if the blog were 'open'. Now that it has become common knowledge I have no qualms about it.

See you tomorrow.

librarising said...

I'll email Viv and ask her first...

marga said...

Doc,
I've just read your early post again.ICTOAN is right. It's better you delete it. Just in case. :-)

marga said...

Cláudia, are you still here?

docmac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cláudia said...

MArga, I am now!

Cláudia said...

Doc, come on, don't be a little liar. Aren't you scared of Mum21's mug? I am! lolololol

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Marga

See Doc's last 2 posts.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Marga

Sorry I meant the 2 before the last.

marga said...

Ok Doc,
I have already seen your last two posts.
This was only an advice as those I give to friends or people Icare for.


Cláudia,
thanks for that link about the Expresso.
Have you got my answer to your email?

marga said...

Thanks ICTON!

:-)

Cláudia said...

No, Marga. I got your e-mail and replied. Nothing else.

marga said...

Thanks ICTON!

:-)

docmac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
marga said...

Sorry clicked twice!

Doc,
de nada!

Cláudia,

I really think your contribution has been fantastica in all the blogs you have been commenting on this case.de verdade:-)

Family waiting to be feed now.

Jocas!

marga said...

+ fantastic

Cláudia said...

Marga, I got that one. Thanks. I replied to it. I thought you had sent another one.
Have a nice meal.

librarising said...

'one of the T7' it is, doc. Waiting for Viv.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Marga

You've disappointed me now, I thought I was getting double thanks.

docmac said...

Libra, I am a member of 3A. If I knew how and had the time right now, I could do it myself. There is no need for me to ask permission from Viv at all. If there were she would have been on the pink side where individuals' thoughts are ceded to the collective and self-expression is not tolerated. It's called fascism.

Lekker party here and I'm tapping away on a mobile. How sad is that: :-))) Did everyone see the video at the link I provided? If not, do make sure you watch it. It's just so heart-warming!!

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Doc mac

Is that the wonderful video you posted last night or have I missed one?

librarising said...

I'm sure she won't mind doc - if you PMd me on the 3As it would be ok but if I mention contents of a private blog to admin on another blog I ought to ask the private blog owner first.

Also if you put your post up on the 3As as it is here it might get pulled for fear of defamation issues, as it's a bit more than speculation... well a lot more.

docmac said...

Same one, ICTOAN. I'm surprised that so few seem to have seen it.
Or maybe they pushed the 'stop' button too soon. There is another amazing video I remember seeing about a fight between lions and a pack of hungry hyenas who were trying to muscle in on a kill the lions had made. That was stunning. I did not see it on Youtube, but it must be on there somewhere. The original name was something like 'lion hyena war'.

Right, phone off. Enjoy your evening.

docmac said...

Libra

OK, I understand that. As I said, off now. Don't know when Viv will be about.

Cheers Doc ;-)

Ecolab said...

Taken from Joana Morais blog! Does anyone know anything more about Yvone?



Suspicions – Dave’s involvement is considered again / Parents refused technical help


Yvone works with endangered children and approached the McCanns in the Algarve. Found the behaviour strange

Yvone, who earned credentials from the English government to work in situations that involve endangered children, was in the Algarve when Maddie disappeared but the McCanns refused her help. The specialist told the PJ, during two depositions that were made one month apart from each other, that she approached the couple after the first few hours and that the behaviour from both left her with suspicions about their involvement in the disappearance.

The behaviour of David Payne, who was accused by a couple of doctors that spent holidays with him in 2005, of having attitudes that indiciated paedophile practices, also left Yvone intrigued. The McCanns’ friend had called them aside and advised them not to speak to the technician.

Yvone found another detail strange. David’s face was not unfamiliar to her, and the technician believes he might have been inquired before, within some case of sexual abuse. She tried to remember when but failed to locate moment and the circumstances under which she had met him.

The days went by and Yvone continued to think about the issue. She then sent a letter to the English police, where she pointed out the details that she had perceived. Namely, that the bedroom window had not been forced open, that it was not normal for a couple of doctors to leave their children alone and that Kate had reacted in an aggressive manner when she had approached her. She also alerted to the official statistics, that point towards the majority of these cases to involve a cover-up from the families.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

ECOLAB

It is thought that she has a management position in CAFCASS,

Cafcass stands for Children and Family Court Advisory Support Service,

Their web site is:

http://www.cafcass.gov.uk/default.aspx

Ecolab said...

Ictoan...Thanks

This story is getting more and more nasty.
I`m afraid we have just seen 1/7 of the icemountain

southerncross said...

Docmac
Ek wil jou graag email,maar kry nie jou adres.

Ecolab said...

Southerncross...

Funny - how it look as dutch. Easy to translate. I do`nt have his email neither, sorry.

southerncross said...

Thanks eco:)

docmac said...

SC ask Viv for my gmail address. Het jy die video van Kruger gesien? Ongelooflik!!

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Doc Mac

I found a number of lion / hyena videos on youtube.

Not sure which is the one you referred to.

Hope you enjoyed your evening.

southerncross said...

Doc
Ek het Viv ge-email,die video was ongelooflik baie dankie!Sent email:)

docmac said...

Thanks ICTOAN, I did, very much. I am all partied out and shall be retiring soon.

The video I referred to was also quite a long one and involved a prolonged scrap between the lions and hyenas. I"ll have a look around youtube tomorrow and post the link if I find it.


SC there is no mail from any 'strangers' in my gmail inbox.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

It's been a long day so I'm going to study the inside of my eyelids.

Good night all !

southerncross said...

Doc,tried my best.

Cláudia said...

ICTOAN, loved the expression!!!
Sleep well.

Ecolab said...

Happens everywhere, by doctors too.

I would categorize The Dolly-pictures of Madeleine as Level One images

Doctor caught with child porn pleads for job

docmac said...

SC moet ek dit hier opsit? Ek kan dit dan delete. Ek gee nie om as ander wat hier is dit sien nie.

southerncross said...

As jy dit vinnig kan doen en dan delete asb

docmac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
southerncross said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
docmac said...

Goodnight all. Sleep well.

Cláudia said...

Dorme bem, Doc.
Beijinhos.

Boa noite, all.

southerncross said...

Goodnight everyone, looking forward to Monday and Mr Amarals's book!

docmac said...

Why did you remove your post about David Payne, Viv? I have better and MUCH more interesting information for you. You have to know where to look ;-)

Details Help

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Results of search on: 20 Jul 2008 at 03:07:17. The details shown are valid at the date and time of the search only.


GMC Reference Number 4090090
Given Names David Anthony
Surname Payne
Gender Man

Registration Status Registered


More Details

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Primary Medical Qualification
MB ChB 1994 University of Leicester


Provisional Registration Date 11 Jul 1994
Full Registration Date 02 Aug 1995



Specialist Register entry date This doctor is not in the Specialist Register
GP Register entry date This doctor is not in the GP Register

????????????????????????????

viv said...

Hi All

Sorry I have not been around today, I see the news continues to shock!

Why is Dr David Payne, not using his given title "Dr" and working as a medical researcher on a temporary contract at Leicester University? The answer to that question may be intersting..I think we should be careful in that this is just what a couple of witnesses have relayed, but people will certainly know my views about Gerry McCann, that I feel he is egocentric, and clearly displays narcisstic/psychopathic tendenies. This can make people behave in very controlling and abusive ways, for example beating wife, sexual abuse of children. This is because such a person feels compelled to exercise power and control of those perceived to be weaker and capable of being controlled. Such people also find it quite impossible to understand empathy, they do not have normal emotions. Of the former I am more certain, given the demeanour of Kate McCann and clear and obvious bruising she had/apparent bruising to face and split over eye, reports from neighbours about late night screaming by her, which is typical of domestic violence as is grab marks she had to the arms. This is just about the commonest injury victims suffer, the perpetrator is controlling the woman in this way and forcing her to listen/terrorising.

It is true that both Eco and I have commented that Madeleine appears to have signs of having been sexually abused, but I would not wish to put it any higher than that. However, we should consider the reaction this got from the Pros. IMO when one is near the mark they cry the loudest!




List of Registered Medical Practitioners






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Results of search on: 20 Jul 2008 at 03:07:09. The details shown are valid at the date and time of the search only.


GMC Reference Number 4090090
Given Names David Anthony
Surname Payne
Gender Man

Registration Status Registered








More Details

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Primary Medical Qualification
MB ChB 1994 University of Leicester


Provisional Registration Date 11 Jul 1994
Full Registration Date 02 Aug 1995



Specialist Register entry date This doctor is not in the Specialist Register
GP Register entry date This doctor is not in the GP Register
Information for Employers Details



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viv said...

Chill out Doc!

I frequently remove posts to amend them and then put them back again, the bit off the bottom was missed on the original one that he is not registered to work as a doctor. Now that is very odd, researchers earns peanuts!

Viv x

docmac said...

I am chilling, Viv. Hold your horses :-)

That registration information is VERY interesting! I will be asking a friend to look into it...

viv said...

Hiya Doc

I think it is also the fact that he just has a temporary contract. This is the status of someone who does not have a secure job, a bit of a drifter, again certainly not what one would expect with someone who qualified as a doctor, like there may be a skeleton (or two) in the cupboard which has blighted his career.

Viv x

docmac said...

Viv, with no valid current registration at all he is only entitled to work as a milkman.

This reg info is explosive. Please save a copy of it. Nite x.

viv said...

He is called Mr David Payne because he is a surgeon! (after some further research).

viv said...

Doc, I think you should check what it says again, he is registered!

viv said...

Mr Payne is not registered at working at Leics Uni in the Department of Cardiovascular Science. Where did he go!

http://www.le.ac.uk/cv/staff/index.html#top

bath theory said...

One thing I would like clarified is whether Gerry said 'I'm not here on holiday' and the context of that statement if true. Anyone remember?

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Good Morning All

There is a very poignant posting on 3A which for technical reasons I cannot reproduce here.

The title of the thread is:

Anyone Remember This Little Girl?
by alan69.

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18609&st=0&sk
=t&sd=a



I would urge you all to access it.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

BT

Sorry can't help, just want you to know I do read other posts and you're not being ignored.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Correction the author on 3A is alanw69. Sorry!

marga said...

ICTOAN,
thanks for the link.
Really touching and well written.
I also like the picture below.

The following article is disgusting.
Only hope they remain arguidos after tomorrow even if the case is to be archived.

http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline=we-ll-savage-bungling-cops-on-oprah-show&method=full&objectid=20655974&siteid=93463-name_page.html

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Marga

I agree about the article but I think it is fairly typical of the UK gutter press.

marga said...

Today's DN

Evidence of death convince PJ but fail in court

PEDRO VILELA MARQUES
Tests. On the eve of the likely announcement of the Attorney-General of the Republic of the closing of the case Maddie, the DN learned from sources close to the process that the analysis of hair found in the car McCann revealed that 16 markers on 18 coincide with the genetic information of the child

Judge suspicious of evidence used in isolation

Tests carried out in hair gathered from the boot of the car rented by the McCann in Algarve determined that 16 markers on 18 coincide with the genetic information of Madeleine. The information put forward by the DN source of PJ adds to the results of the preliminary report of the laboratory of Birmingham in England, where it is noted that "15 of the 19 genetic markers found in traces collected in the boot of the couple's car match" the child's.

"The evidence is clear to investigators," guarantees the source of PJ. "We are talking about a bunch of hair found in the spare wheel site in the boot of the car, which could not have fallen from the siblings' clothes or arrived there by any other means. The problem is that, to make clear proof in court we must reach 18 markers. But with 16 the investigators don't have doubts, "says the policeman.

However, for a judge contacted by the DN, there is no reason for so many certainties. "The question is what markers are missing and, if I had to decide based only on this piece of evidence, I would not take the case to trial, because the likelihood of success would be very low. The evidence must always be articulated with other elements."

Another well-placed source with the process, and with forensic expertise, supports the official version of the PJ claiming that "these tests are like the collection of fingerprints, in which to prove in court we must detect 13 points, but from 11 police already have a certainty. "

For the source of DN, the conclusions of examinations to hair found in the Renault Scénic used only by McCann were not included in the final report of PJ because "since no evidence would be used in court, the police did not want that prosecutors say that there was persecution in relation to the child's parents. "

Though wary of this form of evidence alone, the judge heard by DN argues that there would be matter to take the parents of Maddie McCann to court. "They could be tried anyway for the crime of placing the child in danger, because leaving alone their daughter in the hotel room while going out for dinner is not acceptable by social standards, and for obstruction of justice. It is worth pointing out that parents of the child called the television before the police. "


_____________

If this is true, don't you think there could still be charges?

From what I understand here the PT authorities are being very careful re evidenve that can be accepted or not in court. But I wish they risked more. Taking them to trial would be already sth to disturb them and to put pressure on them. At least they would have to go there. That would be a step forward to bring some justice to the poor girl.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Marga

The quality papers are not much better except they use less inflammatory language.

See the article in the Observer:

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18609&st=0&sk
=t&sd=a

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Marga

There are so many conflicting opinions on what will happen to this case it is difficult for a lay person such as my self to understand what is happening.

Viv is convinced that the case will go to trial in the UK. I hope if there is no action in PT that she is right.

marga said...

ICantThinkOfAName said...
It's been a long day so I'm going to study the inside of my eyelids.

__________

The expressions I can learn from here !
Lindo!

Re People's article: they keep blaming everyone and everything but not the parents. Amaral is being attacked again.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Marga

Sorry I gave you the wrong link to the Observer article, it should be:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/
jul/20/madeleinemccann.ukcrime

marga said...

I have already seen it.Thanks.

Well, time for my morning walk. Thanks God we have a cooler day today. The last days were too hot here.

BBFN

Ecolab said...

BT et all: Gerry NOT on holyday

At least, that is what he is saying on this video.


Before I go any further, I would like to tell you of this man I know of: "This man let himself "discharge" from where he is living - he is going on holyday! The holyday is planned months in advance. Holyday is for him a certain place out in the woods, with a huge amount of booze and a little town nearby, where he can supply. After a week he returns from his holyday."

What I mean is: "Holyday" in common sence - bathing, swimming, nature, fun, shops, restaurants, a glass of vine is NOT holyday in some peoples sence. Some people go on boozing-holiday,svinger-holydays others on sex-holydays with minors(like Fritzl).Others do deliver these holydays and do not attend themselves. This is more common, than you know of.

Back to the video:
David Paine: Shut up Gerry. We are on Holyday.
0:12 Gerry: I`m NOT on holyday

Gerry swearing in fron of kidt

My question is: When Gerry NOT was on holyday, what was he then doing. He obviosly had another agenda with his trip to PdL!

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Ecolab

There was some discussion in the past on this blog that Gerry went to PT to try to rescue a big financial deal which involved the hospital he "work" at.

I am only quoting from memory and I can't supply a link. Perhaps if you look in from time to time and repeat the question when there are others on line, they may be more helpful.

lizzy said...

marga
That report re the 16 markers out of 18 found in the hair recovered from the boot of the car has not been submitted in the PJ's final report, it states that they did not want to look as if they are prescuting the parents. Maybe this is the reason the British police were over there to ensure it was not put in, as this may have influeced the judge to come to a different decision than the clearing one, which is widespreadedly reported as the outcome of this case. I personally don't believe they will ever be charged for anything in relation to this case, as Amaral said this case has been more Political than Police, and he should know,,,,Lizzy

Ecolab said...

ICTOAN

Well It was bath theory 08:33, who asked what Gerry said? If anyone knew?

I find it very hard to beleeve, a common doctor to be fundraiser! I think Gerrys role in that holyday was more like a provider/dealer/logistic than a fundraiser. At least he was NOT on holyday, but at "work".

greetings ;-))

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Ecolab

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I think more brain cells than normal died in the night.

hope4truth said...

I have just read the celebrating blog and cant believe these vile people are so sick in the head.

No matter what theories people wish to band about (and some of the things I have read and heard about in the last couple of day's have sickend me to the core)and if true then something is very wrong with our country for offering the protection it has.

Theories come and go I dont want Madeleine to be dead then again I dont want her to be in the hands of a Peadophile ring either.

For me Madeleine is the only person that matters in any of this a 3 year old child left alone with her siblings night after night and what ever happend she vanished yet people are celebrating that this site is now private?

How do these sick individuals sleep at night? The language and avatars they use sum up what scummy people some of them are and they are so excited, pleased relieved, happy, celebratory, because Madeleine has been found alive and well? No because people who think it is not ok to neglect children are now talking about it in private.

Supertroll would like to thank (list of names) for helping her in her cause. Well I would like to thank Supertroll and other Pro's for posting when I joined the DX it was because I had so many questions the main one being.. Why is no one saying how wrong it is to neglect children while you go to a bar?

That was a fact not something I made up or speculated on all the children in that group were neglected and one of them was missing. Had I done the same I would expect to still be in prison somewhere for breaking the law yet these two had some how spun it into Madeleine was the trademark they were the victims?

SO thanks to all the bile bullying and intimidation on the DX and later from other sites I stuck around as no one need's to bully unless they have something to hide.

Way back then I did not want the parents jailed for neglect the thought of the twins being ripped from Kate broke my heart (let he who is without sin cast the first stone) is a good quote for life they chose to neglect their children and what a heavy burden to carry around for the rest of their lives.

Yet I dont think now that they cary a heavy burden I have seen pictures of them day's after she was taken looking like they had won the lottery joyful smiles and the picture with the T Shirt a beautiful child reduced to a marketing campaign big smiles on their faces?

So keep rejoycing ST I will probebly never rejoyce over this if the parents are found guilty if it is proved they killed her if she died in a an accident and they got rid of her body if they are sent to jail for the rest of their lives for neglect I will not rejoyce.

Madeleine was 3 years old and vanished and whatever happend to her there is not one reason on earth to rejoyce because that beautiful little girl would have been terified and could have been in pain and I am afraid my heart breaks for her alone now as she should be looking forward to her first long summer holiday and the fun that brings.

If she was abducted the person who took her had no right to take her that is without debate. If her parents had not neglected her leaving the door unlocked for good measure then the scum would not have taken her so rejoyce all you like it still does not change the fact that her parents are responsible for the Neglect.

I just pray that whatever happend to Madeleine she is not terified somewhere and hurt and if she is dead she did not suffer nothing else really matters whatever happend to this beautiful child it is heartbreaking and no one should be rejoycing as nothing will bring her back safe and unharmed.

Ecolab said...

ICTOAN

Naughty,naughty.....Have you been out boozing without me?

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

I wonder, is DP is the new Patsy. He, his wife and Mother-in-Law were the only 3 willing to return for a re-constuction, I think. Is this an oooh look over there, blame him, cast suspicion on him, deflect this away from us, if our Arguidi status is removed then even better. Nothing would surprise me with this lot.

Niki said...

Amen to your words Hope!

Astro has done a brilliant translation again:
20/07/08
English defended the use of the dogs - Correio da Manhã



Traces – Finding the trail of a death changed the direction of the investigation



An exhaustive report explains the possible scenarios to hide a body and defends the animals’ reliability

Mark Harrison, the English police who was designated to help the Polícia Judiciária in the search for Madeleine McCann, wrote a report last summer, in which he defended the usage of the dogs that are experts in the detection of cadaver odours and blood traces. The discovery of the residues and the signaling of the trail of a cadaver thus ended up formally changing the direction of an investigation that had been limited to the theory of abduction until then.

The report, which praises the Portuguese authorities’ work, suggested that the animals should be taken to all the locations where the body might have been hidden. From the apartment that had been rented by the McCanns up to the crèche, through the beach and the church area.

Mark Harrison explained that it was necessary to analyse the scenarios of Madeleine having been killed that night and her body abandoned by a person on foot or by car. The expert added that despite of the high costs of that search, it should be carried out in order to clarify the case.

Dogs are reliable

In the report, Mark Harrison says that it us very unlikely that the body was buried in the sand. The English policeman defends that a launch into the sea is the most likely scenario, while the body should also be searched for within an area of cliffs and dense bushes that lies east of Praia da Luz.

The two English dogs were presented as an indispensable help to the investigation, after their abilities and the manner in which they are trained were explained in detail, as well as the fact that they both react to blood traces and cadaver odours, without a single episode of “false positives” in the investigations.

In his report, Mark Harrison listed cases of success that offered a guarantee of reliability. And he asserted that if the dogs came to signal Maddie’s death, then it would be a fact.

Details

High costs - Mark Harrison stressed the high costs of the dogs. Their daily rate amounted to one thousand euros; the cost of the trip for them and their handlers was of 2750. There was also the cost of the passport for the animals (450 euros), adding to the lodging, the food and the transportation of the vehicles that were necessary for the animals.

False positives – Eddie, the dog that specialized in cadaver odour detection, has never given a false alert. He has participated in approximately 200 searches in homicide scenarios in Great Britain and never signaled any products that derived from meat or any other food item.

Human blood – Keela was trained exclusively with human blood; blood that is subject to strict testing and which comes from hospitals. She locates contaminated guns, smells vehicles and clothing items, and accurately detects residues, even if the locations are subject to cleaning.

……………….

Kate refused to answer the PJ

Kate refused to answer tens of questions from the Polícia Judiciária. After the first day of questioning, when she appeared in the company of her lawyer but was heard as a witness, Kate changed her stance. Being made an arguida and the fact that the authorities assumed that they admitted her involvement in the disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, led her to adopt a different attitude.

She refused to reply, for example, why she left the twins behind in the bedroom in order to call her husband and friends at the restaurant, after finding out that Maddie had disappeared.

She also failed to explain why she had not searched for her daughter in the first moments, sitting on the bed almost without moving, and she offered no explanation for the fact that the preliminary test results from the English lab detected traces in the car boot and behind the sofa, traces whose DNA resembled Maddie’s.

Other details from her personal and professional life remained unanswered. Kate refused, for example, to explain whether or not it was true that before the holidays she had admitted she had a bad premonition. Whether or not she had ever complained that the twins were very restless or had ever admitted to deliver the guard of Maddie to a relative.

Kate also remained expressionless when she was confronted with the possibility that she had quit working because she could not handle the pressure of raising he three small children.

She did not explain how the cadaver odour was found on her clothes and on the soft toy that was normally used by Maddie, or why the dogs marked the death inside the apartment.

Kate also chose not to clarify who had called Sky News, nor did she reveal whom she had called in the moments that immediately followed the disappearance.

In her deposition, Kate was also confronted with the fact that her refusal to make a statement might hinder the discovery of her daughter’s whereabouts. Nevertheless, she kept her silence.

Mother’s DNA on the window

The window had been forced open and the abductor had taken the child through it. That was the first possibility that was advanced by Kate to the authorities that collected residues on location. But the tests that were done at the IML [Portuguese forensics institute] ended up isolating just one DNA which did not belong to the child but rather to Kate. To the PJ, it is also practically impossible for anyone to carry the child out of that window, which does not even open completely.

Gerry accepted to speak to the police

On the day that he was made an arguido, Gerry accepted to answer all of the Judiciária’s questions.

Doubts about surveillance on the children

The PJ found contradictions in the friends’ testimonies concerning the manner in which the children were watched over.

Denied the use of sedatives on the children

Kate and Gerry have always denied to the PJ that they medicated the children or used any sedative to make them sleep. Maddie’s parents thus stated that their children went to bed early simply because they were used to that, and it was not even usual for them to wake in the middle of the night. CM knows that months after Maddie disappeared, Kate suggested to the Judiciária that the twins should be tested in order to find out whether they had been sedated that night. Something that the investigators found strange, given the fact that being doctors, they both knew that any residue would have disappeared by then. This was considered to be another indicator that Kate and Gerry were not telling the whole truth about what happened on the 3rd of May, hiding what had happened to the child.
....................................

Notes

Recorded PJ taped action – The dogs’ search was recorded by the Polícia Judiciária. The handler also wrote an extensive report that translated the signs that had been detected by the animals during their search for traces.

TIR English address – Kate stated her identity and her residence and gave her English address. Therefore, the return home was not considered to be an escape from justice.

Return Postponed promise – When they returned home, the McCanns promised to return if it was necessary to make a statement. The reconstitution was requested, but the friends boycotted it.


source: Correio da Manhã, 20.07.2008, paper edition

+/-

+/-

by astro

Zodiac said...

I wonder, 'if'

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hope

I an Speachless (in the nicest possible way) how could anyone add to what you have just posted, Thank you.


Ecolab

I don't remember!

Ecolab said...

Zodiac:
Was DP the one, who was going back to PdL for a re-constuction?

If so, I do NOT doubt that the rumors now about him is "Pay Back".

What a disgusting case.

hope4truth said...

Nikki ICTOAN

Just had to get that off my chest it does astound me that anything other than Madeline and the truth is important to some (including her parents) god forbig I am ever in the same situation but people can think of me what they want to (it would be no worse than I thought of myself if I had left them) my only concern would be for my child to be found what else would matter?

Nikki thanks for the translation

ICTOAN my husband often wishes I was speachless...


xxx

hope4truth said...

God Forbig??? Forbid obviously x

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hope

Has your husband never heard of matrimonial deafness?

marga said...

JM,has got the translation of today's CM.

http://www.joana-morais.blogspot.com/

hope4truth said...

ICTOAN

LOL he has masterd that but I do repeat myself if I feel he is using it too often xxx

marga said...

Sorry,

didn't see it was already here.

Just returned from my walk because the sun is too strong again.

I only hope some journalists come forward today on Tv or in the Press here in Pt to raise their voices against the injustice it would be if they are not going to show their innocence in a court of law. it seems there are judges who think they should be charged.

marga said...

There is a thread in the 3A on Rebelo. Worth reading.

marga said...

Yesterday there was a thread on CdM article about Payne on the sky news forum which is now closed.
They have a picture of the twosaints saying they are to be cleared.

docmac said...

Boo!

docmac said...

Come on, Claudia!

docmac said...

Boo

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