26 Jan 2009

DID GERRY KIDNAP MADDIE ?


Here is that picture of Gerry in bundleman outfit from a whole year ago on my blog Jan 2008. So actually I have been very consistent in saying I think Gerry was the one who carried Maddie off, it is just that I now believe she was alive, not dead.

That contrasting outfit of dark jacket and beige trousers, so clearly described by Jane Tanner and The Smiths is a pretty unusual combination for a man in a holiday resort. It really stuck out to both sets of witnesses, he was just not dressed like a tourist. How clever of you Gerry! So, in the deserted streets of PDL at that time of year, was there two men wondering around who dressed in that way? I really don't think so! Oh and did Gerry just happen to have that non touristy looking outfit with him in PDL, well you bet he did, just look at that picture! Like he said in that video on the bus, "I have not come here to enjoy myself". Nasty man!

ADDED 28/1/09 PROCESS WITNESS STATEMENTS COPIED FROM 3 AS

Witness statement. 26 May 2007. A Smith in Portimao.

--------- She accepts the presence of an interpreter.
--------- On 30 April 2007 she came to Portugal, specifically the Algarve, for holidays. She came with her parents and two nieces.
--------- They stayed at a complex in PdL where her parents have an apartment.
--------- When they arrived at the apartment her brother and sister-in-law were already there with their family.
--------- They came for approximately 10 days returning to Ireland on 9 May (not being absolutely certain of the day [of the week])
--------- She spent her holidays at the pool where she was staying, on the beach and in the shopping centre. Usually she was in PdL, in the town of Luz.
--------- Dinner was eaten between 19H00 and 20H00 in the apartment or in the restaurants "Dolphin", "Cavaleiro da Luz", "Chaplin" or "Marujo", all being situated in the PdL area.
--------- When they dined at home they usually did not go out. When they ate at restaurants they would go to "Kelly's" bar situated, she understands, in Rua da Calheta in PdL.
--------- Regarding 3 May 2007, she was with all her family dining at the Restaurante "Dolphin" which was close to "Kelly's Bar". When they left the restaurant, at 21h30, they went to "Kelly's Bar". They were there for about thirty minutes.
--------- At 22h00 they left "Kelly's Bar" returning on foot, as a group, to the apartment.
--------- Questioned she replied that she knew the time they left because her father and brother decided to go home early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law wasn't feeling very well, and the other was that her brother, sister-in-law and their children finished their holidays the next day and had to catch an aeroplane back to Ireland in the morning.
--------- Leaving the bar they turned right and went along the road for 40-50 metres. They turned right again and began to climb up some steps in a small road that came out in Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they spread out along the road one in front of the other. She doesn't recall how they were divided [who was where in the line].
--------- The deponent remembers that when she got to the top of the steps she looked to her left and saw a man with a girl in his arms, walking along Rua 25 de Abril, coming in her direction, about two metres away from her.
--------- The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril having started to go up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of their complex.
--------- She didn't notice if the man went down the stairs or continued along Rua 25 de Abril.
--------- It was the first time she had seen that man, not recalling having seen him at any other time or place.
--------- She had seen photographs of Madeleine McCann and thinks that it could have been the missing girl. Questioned as to the percentage of her certainty she responded 60%.
--------- The description of the man and the girl given below was based on the witness's sight, in poor light, at around 22h00.
--------- Questioned she said that she probably could not identify the man or the child.
--------- Description
--------- (1) - Male individual, caucasian, light-skinned, seemingly between 20-plus and 30-minus years old, normal build, about 170 to 175cm tall. She saw the man's face at the time but now she can't recall it. She thought his face was clean-shaven. She doesn't remember any tattoos, scars or earrings. She didn't notice his eyes. The hair was thick, light brown, short behind (a normal cut) and a little longer on top.
--------- As for the trousers, they were full-length, smooth "rights", light beige, cotton but thicker like linen, possibly with buttons and without any designs [markings],
[NOTE: unless the expression "rights" has some kind of local use in Ireland, or it was misheard by the interpreter, there is an expression "às direitas" in Portugal which means "as it should be", so she may have said something like "they were just trousers, as you would expect, or, as they should be".]

--------- As for the upper body clothing she couldn't see clearly because the child covered him almost completely.
--------- As for the shoes she can't say anything because she didn't see them.
--------- The individual's walk was normal, [she] knowing how to distinguish between that, going fast and running. The man did not appear tired, moving normally while carrying the child.
--------- (2) - About the child she was female because she had long straight hair, below her neck, blondish/brownish in colour.
--------- She was sure the girl was about 4 years old because her neice (who was in the family group) is that age and they were the same size.
--------- She couldn't see the child's face as it was on the left shoulder, she was upright and in front of the man, seeming to be asleep. Her arms were dangling down her own body, not around the neck of the person carrying her. She didn't she the hands of the girl, not knowing [therefore] her skin color, although she felt that she was white.
--------- She had no covering, blanket or other clothing, [the deponent] having, due to the position of the child, only a view of her back.
--------- She wore light trousers, white or light pink, which could have been pyjamas. She doesn't remember any designs because it was already dark. The fabric was fine [delicate], possibly cotton.
--------- Her blouse [top] was also light with long sleeves. She [the deponent] couldn't see clearly because the man had his arms around the child. She wasn't sure if the top was the same color as the trousers, saying only that it was vey light, though the material was the same as the trousers.
--------- Questioned about the shoes she responded that she doesn't remember seeing any footwear, not knowing if there was any or not.

---





This one has some surprises ... very similar to his Dad's but with some twists ... where's my steel helmet? (COMMENT FROM ALBYM ON 3 AS WHO TRANSLATED FROM DVD)

Witness statement. P Smith. 26 May 2007 in Portimao.
--- He appears as a witness and accepts the presence of an interpreter.
--- His father owned an apartment in the town of Luz, Lagos to which his father came at least three times a year. The deponent was one time in Portugal.
--- Concerning that period, he said that he arrived on 26 April 2007, returning on 4 May 2007. He arrived at Faro airport from Dublin. That he came ahead of his father, by choice, was due to the days he had available [from work]. He came with his wife, S, and their two sons, T and C, 13 and 6 respectively.
--- He wished to clarify that on 3 May he was with his family at the restaurant "Dolphin", in Praia da Luz, where he ate dinner. About 21h00 he left the restaurant and went to "Kelly's" Bar, about a minute away on foot. In "Kelly's" bar, the street address of which he does not know, they consumed several drinks, leaving about 21H50/22H00.
--- They left the bar, and climbed some steps to gain access to a main road a bit higher [up the hill]. On that road they took a secondary road, whose name he does not know, destined for [their apartment]. At the start of that road he saw an individual carrying a child, walking normally but with some haste, going down [the road]. They appeared normal to him, like a father and daughter. The individual continued downwards, in the opposite direction to the deponent and his companions. He didn't know where he [the man] was headed and only observed him as they passed each other.
--- Asked he said that it could have been 21H55/22H00 when they passed each other, and that he had no knowledge at all of the disappearance of a child. He only found out about that the following morning through an acquaintance, the son of the builder of the complex, who was also on his way to the airport. The deponent went to the airport, as previously arranged, in order to return to Ireland that day.
At that time, he did not associate the individual [from the previous night] with the disappearance. Only after thinking about the subject and the coincidence of the timing did he conclude that Madeleine could have been the child being carried by the individual whom he had seen.
--- Regarding the description of the individual who had carried the child he said:
caucasian, about 175 to 180cm tall. About 35 years or older. Darkish skin from exposure to the sun. Normal build, in good shape. Short, brown hair. Didn't remember if he wore glasses, beard or moustache. Doesn't recall any other relevant details because of the poor light.
--- He also doesn't remember the clothing or trousers of the man. He related that he didn't pay attention to those details because his wife is pregnant and, at that moment in time, she was feeling indisposed so he was paying constant attention to her rather than to the man.
--- As for the child he said that she was female. Perhaps two or three years old, she having seemed to him to be a little smaller than his niece of the same age. Her build was normal. She had blond hair, medium in tone, i.e. not really light. Her skin was white, typical of British people. Didn't see her eyes as she was asleep with her eyse closed.
Doesn't remember much about the clothes but thought they could have been lightweight for summer, light in colour. Doesn't remember if she was covered, or had any shawl or blanket. He couldn't say if she was shoeless.
--- He related that he [the man] had carried the child on his arms, with her head on his left shoulder , such that she was on his [the deponent's] right-hand side, in a seemingly wholly natural manner.
--- Having already seen various photographs and TV images of Madeleine he related that the child being carried by the man could have been her. While not absolutely certain he is sure that it could have been Madeleine and that that view is shared by his family.
--- Asked he said that the the man said nothing, nor the child who was sleeping deeply. Further, the man neither tried to hide his face nor lower his eyes, giving no perception of anything strange.
--- He stated that he doubted being able to recognise the man either face-to-face or by photograph.
--- Asked about them he said that when he saw the man he was with [... the list of the family ...]
--- He stated that when they passed each other the man was going down to his right, in the middle of the road, there being little or no motor vehicles at that hour.
--- Further his family group was spread out so others may have seen the man from a different position.
--- A diagram indicating the route and location of the sighting is attached.
--- Further, when talking in Ireland his son T had said the man was wearing a black, long-sleeved coat and the child had no shoes.



Maybe if we look at some of the evidence of witnesses it really looks that way. Would he carry a dead Maddie through the streets? I really don't think so!

Why did Gerry, Payne and O'Brien sit there desperately cooking the timelines before the PJ arrived? Why are Payne and O'Brien so nervous during their rogatory interviews they are utterly incoherent, in spite of being qualified doctors?

Why is it that when every other benefactor of the McCanns pulls out of supporting them in September 2007, Brian Kennedy vows to use his fortune and support them to his dying day? Who could have owned this "top of the range" blue vehicle the taxi driver refers to at a meeting in a hotel with four people who he believes were certainly Payne, Gerry and Kate

Why would the McCanns want everyone to keep talking about a death theory on let's face it, no evidence? Could it be to stop people focussing on these witnesses below that given an insight into what really happened?

If Gerry did cart her off alive but drugged down to the beach that night and hand her over to some "predator" in a boat, then what he has done is far worse than losing his temper with her and killing her, overdosing her or leaving her to have some "accident", he is truly the most despicable example of a parent we could possibly imagine. A parent that immediately wanted to cash in, big time! A parent who got a spinner Clarence Mitchell to fiercely defend his "right" to have all the "profits" from the demise of his little girl go directly to him.

Why would you just happen to have a couple of 6 x 4 pictures of little Maddie all done up in her football outfit with you, on holiday and then use that same football team to draw in massive cash for his "fighting fund" as he called it in the early stages?

Why did Mrs Justice Hogg decided to make Maddie a Ward of Court in April 2008? Would she bother to do that in relation to a child she knows is dead or would she do that because she fears the child may still be alive but at grave risk of very serious harm? Worse still, why would the McCanns' overpaid liar, Clarence Mitchell, tell the press, the world, that the McCanns themselves made Maddie a Ward in May 2007 when we can see from the Order of Mrs Justice Hogg that is just a lie? It looks to me like Mrs Justice Hogg did that, as she has a right to do, because she felt in April 2008 that Maddie may still be alive and in very grave danger and suffering very serious harm. She had a right to do that to throw a ring of care around Maddie and take any decisions and rights away from a couple of parents who she knew full well from all the confidential evidence at her disposal were simply not fit to be involved in her future care. The Court Order makes plain the McCanns made an application under the Child Abduction Act on 17 May, claiming that Maddie had been abducted and obtaining an Order that all information concerning her whereabouts/details of the police enquiry into that had to be passed to them. In short they wanted to know whether they were going to get caught out. But the Chief Constable of Leicester Police was refusing point blank to comply with that Order. So on 2 April 2008, desperate with worry about what they police were doing and what they had found out, the McCanns made an application seeking to force him to comply and disclose details of his file and other UK agency files. That was strenuously opposed and the McCanns had to accept they are being investigated for the couple of serious criminals they are and they cannot see the files of police investigations into their conduct. The Hearing was adjourned until July 2008 because Mrs Justice Hogg wanted to give time for all interested parties to join in the proceedings and present their objections. The Attorney General herself intervened, a rare step in court proceedings but she said she wanted to "preserve the integrity of police investigations by not releasing files to suspects". The Serious Organised Crime Agency also intervened and made similar objections. Mrs Justice Hogg therefore reversed her earlier Order and said that no British Agency whatsoever had to release any information to the McCanns other than what they had already seen which the Chief Constable handed back to them. Some 81 pieces of information the McCanns solicitors had handed to the police about supposed "sightings" of Maddie. I am sure he kept a copy, given those "sightings" may well have links to employees and friends of Kate and Gerry McCann including of course Metodo 3. Clarence Mitchell then tried to put a gloss on this humiliating defeat for the McCanns saying they now had 81 good leads for their investigators to work on. Two points spring to mind, if the McCanns solicitors already had those leads why did they not act on them in the first place? Could it be the solicitors have to act in a lawful way and allow the police to do their job of trying to find Maddie? Clearly the "leads" were every bit as useless and unhelpful as everything else that spews forth from Team McCann otherwise the Police would have found her. Indeed, Mitchell's pompous words that M3 could somehow do a better job than British Police would be a joke, if this were not a serious subject. It is all part of the bizarre McCann Media Circus with Mitchell the Pink Ringmaster and not caring one bit what they did to little Maddie. He just gets off on being so needed by two atrocious "parents." , and the sheer challenge of trying to make them sound human.

What on earth was going on in Kate's head :

She joked: that Madeleine is probably giving her kidnapper a taste of her forceful character.

She said: *I bet she is giving them her tuppence worth"

She said: "Madeleine is such a sociable child, so funny and engaging."

What when she is with these dreadful paedophiles who have not caused her any harm?

Well you raised the spectre of "racism" and "paedophiles" Gerry, in your call back home where a witness heard you that night saying "she has been taken by a gang of Portuguese paedophiles". Then you have got quite a few racists on board to help you push that idea, we can see that. You got the press on board too and wanted lots of publicity, to keep the public focussed, we are and I have every faith in British Justice!


From the McCann files, an excellent and unbiased reference site who just wants to honestly inform the public, unlike some I could mention!

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

The Smiths' Sighting

Kate and Gerry McCann return to the UK

Just before 10:00pm on the night of 03 May 2007, the Smith family from Ireland pass a man carrying a child in his arms. The man averts his eyes from them to signal that he does not wish to speak.

Four months later, during which time the McCanns never sought to exploit this potentially crucial sighting, the Smith family are watching TV. They see the McCanns return to the UK and observe Gerry leave the plane and walk across the tarmac with Sean in his arms.

The father, Martin Smith, is shocked. He recognises the walking style and the way the child is being held against the shoulder. It is exactly like the man he saw on the streets of Praia da Luz, four months earlier.


Reference to the sighting in the PJ's 57-page report summary

'Further on this issue, the testimony of MARTIN SMITH was considered, pages 1606 and following, reporting the sighting of an individual carrying a child, in one of the streets that lead to the beach. It was said that the child could be MADELEINE McCANN, although it was never peremptorily stated. Some time later, the witness alleged that, by its stance, the individual who carried the child could be GERALD McCANN, which was concluded when he saw him descending the stairs from an airplane, pages 2871, 3991 and following and 4135 and following. It was established that at the time that was being mentioned, GERALD McCANN was sitting at the table, in the Tapas Restaurant.'


Gonçalo Amaral speaks to IOL PortugalDiário, 03/04 August 2008

PortugalDiário: The PJ's report dismisses the Smiths' testimony, due to the hour at which they say they saw the person with the child…

Gonçalo Amaral: 'It cannot be that way, because nobody knows for sure at what time the things happened. The reconstruction was not made, therefore it is impossible to know for certain. The employees do not state that Gerry McCann was in the restaurant. They only say that people were sitting down and getting up from the table. Their testimony [Smith] is very credible. The way that the person walked, the clumsy manner in which the child was held. It is nothing that sounds invented. Is it evidence? Certainly not. It is information that has to be worked further.'


Summary from 'A Verdade Da Mentira' ('The Truth of the Lie' by Gonçalo Amaral) - Chapter's 8 & 21 - The sighting by the Smith family


smith.jpg

Text: "Rua da Escola Primária, the location where the Smith family (black arrow) crosses paths with a man who was walking down the street (red arrow) carrying a child, on the 3rd of May 2007, at around 10 p.m." Photograph courtesy of Gonçalo Amaral, 'The Truth of the Lie'.
Chapter 8 - A man carrying a child on the way to the beach - pages 111-114

30 July 2008
Thanks to 'blackberry' for translation

- The Smith family, from Ireland, is in Luz for holidays, staying at their own holiday apartment; four adults and 5 children: the father (retired, 58) his wife, his son (23 yr old) and daughter-in-law and their two children (ie, Mr Smith's grandchildren), his daughter (12), two additional grandchildren, 10 and 4, of another daughter back in Ireland.

- approx 21h55, they are returning from "Kelly's Bar", heading north, all spread out along the street

- they pass a man walking down the middle of the street, carrying a child, with the head against his left shoulder and the arms hanging down alongside the body, in light colored or pink pyjamas, bare feet, pale skin typical of British and blond, shoulder-length hair; the girl is about 3-4 years old, about 1 meter tall.

- The man is not dressed like a tourist; he's wearing cream or beige trousers, classic cut, of linen or cotton. He is white, 30-35 yrs, 1.70-1.80 meters tall, average build, physically fit, short, brown hair, with a face that looks tanned.

- Images of Robert Murat begin to circulate around the world

- Back in Ireland, the Smiths watch the news and learn of Jane's statement and the suspicions falling upon Murat.

- The father contacts the Irish police. He tells his story. The man he saw was NOT Murat. He knows Murat and it was not him.

- The father is almost certain that the girl he saw was Madeleine.

- The Smiths are secretly brought back to Portugal. On Saturday, 26 May, in Portimão, Smith and his two children are interviewed.

- Their testimony is credible, but given the lack of light in the area, they can't identify the man who was carrying the child.

- The described the way he walked and carried her; this image is strongly fixed in their memory.

Chapter 21 - An Irish family in shock - pages 197-199

- Sept 2007, McCanns return to UK

- Gerry exits the plane, carrying his son against his left shoulder, the child's arms down along his sides, down the stairs and across the tarmack Gerry walks

- The Smith family see this recording on the news at 22h00 and are hit hard: they know this person, this way of carrying a child and of walking. It is Gerry McCann, they believe with a high degree of certainty, that they saw on 3 May at about 22h00, carrying a 4 yr old girl who appeared to be deeply asleep

- The father contacts the police to communicate this new information. He says he has not slept since 9 Sept and is very upset. It's as if he re-lived the night he saw the man carrying the child. Seeing Gerry walk and carry the child, awoke something in his head...

- Still not completely convinced, he watches the news again on ITV and also on Sky.

- No, there are no doubts. Gerry McCann looks just like the same person he saw carrying the child on May 3.

- Smith, upset and worried about what he saw and has concluded, needs the investigators to contact him.

- In late September, the Portuguese police receive this information from Smith. This appears to be a piece of the puzzle.

- Now Jane Tanner's insistence at seeing the abductor go the other direction makes sense, removing attentions from the way Gerry walked, in the direction of the beach. The man carrying a child didn't walk east towards Murat's house, but west in the direction of the Smiths.

- This puzzle piece allows the investigators to reconstruct what happened on that cold night of 3 May. The puzzle is almost complete.

- We make the decision to bring the Smiths back to Portugal. They will be heard, and in legal and procedural terms, will give their identification using televised images, since a personal identification [of Gerry] is out of the question.

- A reconstitution of that night, with the Smiths, is seriously considered.

- But the Smiths don't return to Portugal.

- The Portuguese police changed their minds after GA leaves the team; they decide to use the international request mechanism [letters rogatory]

- This leads to absurd delays

- In the meantime, rumours abound that strangers to the investigation have found about about this witness and his family and, supposedly, have tried to talk to Smith, though their intentions in doing so are unknown.

Maps and aerial views of the Smith's sighting

Map of Praia da Luz

Map of Praia da Luz

The McCanns' apartment was located on R. Prof. Agostinho da Silva - the Ocean Club swimming pool and the McCanns' apartment are clearly visible just below the road name on this map.

The sighting by the Smith family took place on R. da Escola, which is marked on this map - just below and to the left of the Ocean Club complex. The actual point of sighting was just below the final 'a' in the 'R. da Escola' road name on this map.

Map showing location of Smith sighting

Most likely route taken from Apartment 5A

This map marks in red the most likely route taken, if the man seen by the Smith family was Gerry McCann and the starting point was the McCanns' apartment.

It is possible that another route may have been taken - straight down the R. Primeiro de Maio and then right into R. da Escola - but that route would have increased the likelihood of being seen, being on a main road and presumably reasonably well lit.

The route above appears to offer the greater degree of privacy as it passes waste land, is not overlooked by apartments or houses and would presumably have been considerably darker than the main road.

The point at which the Smith family met with the man carrying a child

The meeting

This map shows the point at which the Smith family met and passed a man carrying a child.

The red line indicates the route of the man, the black line indicates the route of the Smith family, who were returning from Kelly's Bar.

An alternative route into R. da Escola

The alternative route

This is the alternative route into R. da Escola if the man had walked straight down R. Primeiro de Maio and then turned right.

Close up of R. da Escola

Close up of R. da Escola

This picture gives a close up of R. da Escola. The meeting took place roughly half way up this road.

The zig-zag building on the left can be clearly seen in the photograph reproduced from 'The Truth of the Lie' above.

Aerial view of possible routes

Aerial view of possible routes

This photograph shows the two possible routes to R. da Escola, if the starting point was Apartment 5A.

The red route is the route already indicated on the map above. The yellow route is the route taken by going straight down R. Primeiro da Maio and then turning right into R. da Escola.


Jane Tanner's sighting

Height:
5' 10" (25 May 2007)
5' 8" or 5' 9" (05 June 2007)
5' 7" to 5' 11" (09 June 2007)
5' 8" to 5' 10" (26 October 2007)
5' 9" (28 October 2007)
5' 6" (16 November 2007)
'probably 5ft 8in tall, he was taller than me but not 6ft and so between those two' (19 November 2007)

Age:
35-40

Hair:
Hair that was short on top (25 May 2007)
Dark hair, parted to one side, slightly longer at the back (05 June 2007)
Dark hair (26 October 2007)
Black hair (28 October 2007)
'Hair.. the one thing that I remember a lot is the hair. He did seem to have quite a lot of dark, reasonably-long-to-the-neck hair' (19 November 2007)

Skin:
White (25 May 2007)
Caucasian (09 June 2007)
Caucasian with southern European/Mediterranean appearance (26 October 2007)
'More local or Mediterranean looking'/'swarthy skin' (19 November 2007)

Top clothes:
Dark jacket (25 May 2007)
Dark jacket, slightly longer than a suit jacket (05 June 2007)
Wearing a maroon shirt (28 October 2007)
Heavy dark coat (19 November 2007)

Trousers:
Beige or golden long trousers (25 May 2007)
Light coloured trousers which may have been beige or mustard coloured (05 June 2007)
Camel-coloured trousers (28 October 2007)
'He was wearing quite a lot of clothes and that's one thing in hindsight again I think was quite odd because tourists when they're abroad, Brits abroad would always have cropped trousers or shorts or something, and he had a sort of a big heavy jacket and trousers on' (19 November 2007)
'He was dressed in that sort of smart casual way European people dress' (19 November 2007)

Build:
Medium (25 May 2007)
Slim (26 October 2007)

Shoes:
Dark shoes (25 May 2007)
Black or brown shoes (28 October 2007)

Carrying child:
'Carrying, sort of, across the body like that. I suppose in hindsight you'd probably think somebody would carry them more against the shoulder.' (19 November 2007)

Child's description:
'I could tell it was a child, and I could see the feet and... feet and the bottom of the pyjamas, and I just thought that child's not got any shoes on because you could see the feet.' (19 November 2007)

Child's clothes:
'the pyjamas had a pinky aspect to them so you presume a girl.'


Martin Smith's sighting

Height:
175 to 180 cm tall (5’ 9’’ to 5’ 11’)

Age:
30-35

Hair:
Short, brown hair

Skin:
White

Top clothes:
A darker top. The man is not dressed like a tourist

Trousers:
Cream or beige trousers, classic cut, of linen or cotton

Build:
Average build, physically fit

Shoes:
Not specified

Carrying child:
Carrying a child, with the head against his left shoulder and the arms hanging down alongside the body

Child's description:
Bare feet, pale skin typical of British and blonde, shoulder-length hair; the girl is about 3-4 years old, about 1 metre tall

Child's clothes:
Light coloured or pink pyjamas


Drogheda family hit out over Madeleine case clue coverage, 08 August 2007

Drogheda family hit out over Madeleine case clue coverage Drogheda Independent

Wednesday August 08 2007

A DROGHEDA family who may hold vital clues as to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have hit out at media distortion of evidence that they have given to Portuguese police.

Maple Drive man Martin Smith, his wife and his children had just left the Kelly bar, which is located approximately 400 metres from the McCanns' apartment at the Ocean Club between 9.50-10pm on the night Madeleine disappeared.

They returned to Ireland the next day, and because the reported abduction times didn't originally match, they never had cause to examine their journey that night.

As it emerged that Madeleine was abducted around the same time, one of the family members had a flashback of the moment some time later and encouraged the others to jog their memory.

They remembered passing a man walking towards the beach with a child in his arms.

Other than his approximate height and the fact that he was wearing beige clothes they cannot be more specific than that. 'We are annoyed at how vague our description is,' said the family member.

The family contacted the Portuguese police and flew back over to give evidence.

However, contrary to media reports, Mr Smith had not seen chief suspect Robert Murat in a bar the evening that Madeleine was abducted. 'He definitely didn't see him on the night in question,' said a family member.

The family are also mystified at reports that he knows Mr Murat. 'They met once in a bar about two years ago. My dad would only know Mr Murat by sight,' said the family member. 'However, from what he knows, he can say that the man who was carrying the child was not Robert Murat.'


Irish family's Maddie quiz, 03 January 2008

Irish family's Maddie quiz The Sun

From: VERONICA LORRAINE in Praia da Luz
Published: 03 Jan 2008

PRIVATE detectives hunting for Madeleine McCann are to quiz an Irish family who may have been the last to see her alive.

Martin Smith, his wife and children told cops they saw a man carrying a little blonde girl in Praia da Luz on the night Maddie vanished.

Investigators from the Metodo 3 agency hired by Maddie's parents Gerry and Kate are preparing to travel to Ireland to interview them.

The family, from Drogheda, Co Louth, believe they saw the man taking the sleeping tot down to the beach at the Portuguese resort.

The Smiths were leaving Kelly's Bar — 400 metres from the McCanns' apartment — between 9.50 and 10pm on May 3 last year.

They flew home to Ireland the next day, but when the times of Maddie's abduction were revealed, the family remembered seeing a man, 5ft 7in to 5ft 9in tall and dressed in beige, carrying the child.

Significantly the description matches that given by Jane Tanner, 37, a friend of the McCanns.

Mr Smith, who has already spoken to Portuguese cops over the sighting, said yesterday: "I'd talk to anyone to move this investigation on. I think about Maddie every day."

He added: "I found the Portuguese cops not to be the most efficient bunch."

His wife Mary, 59, said: "We saw a man carrying a blonde child. It was just such a normal thing to see in a holiday resort — we didn't think anything of it at the time."

The Sun reported on Monday how Metodo 3 — which is costing the Find Madeleine Fund £300,000 — plan to blitz Morocco after several leads pointed to the country.


Missing Madeleine McCann: Irish Witness 'Clears' Murat, 04 January 2008

Irish tourist clears Murat Sky News

John Kelly
First published: 04 January 2008
(Same article later republished with new headline: 'Missing Madeleine McCann: Irish Witness 'Clears' Murat', 12:00pm UK, Monday April 07, 2008 )

An Irish tourist who saw someone carrying a child in a blanket on the night Madeleine McCann disappeared insists that the mystery man was not Robert Murat.

Martin Smith, from Drogheda in Co Louth, was on holiday in Praia Da Luz with his family when they bumped into the man just before 10pm on May 3 last year.

The Smith family's suspicions were aroused because the man made no response when they asked if the barefoot child was asleep.

"He just put his head down and averted his eyes, which is very unusual in a tourist town at such a quiet time of the year," said Mr Smith.

Initially the Smith family thought nothing more of the encounter - and even the next day when the story broke they still didn't make the connection.

"We were home two weeks when my son rang me up and asked was he dreaming or did we meet a man carrying a child the night Madeleine was taken," said Mr Smith.

"We all remembered the same recollection, and I felt we should report it to the police.

"We've all been beating ourselves up that we should have made the link sooner, if only we'd remembered the next day. But the Portuguese police said you see these things on holiday all the time."

The Smiths did contact the Portuguese police once they had returned to Ireland, but say they have had no contact with the officers investigating the case since May last year.

"I rang the Portuguese police and they took a statement from me on the phone," said Mr Smith.

They asked me to make a statement to the Gardai, which I did, and two days later Leicestershire police got on to us.

"My eldest son, Peter, my youngest daughter, Aoife, and I then flew to Luz to make a statement. They didn't seem to be the most efficient police you ever came across - and that was the last time we had any contact with the investigation.

"I don't know if this information will help the McCanns, but anything we can do to help try to solve it, we will.

"We were looking at all the commotion on Sky News and we really felt quite helpless. We had two grandchildren with us at the time and it had a terrible effect on them - they all wanted to sleep in the same room as us."

But Mr Smith is certain that the man he and his family saw that night was not Robert Murat, who is still officially an "arguido" in the Madeleine McCann investigation.

"I told police it was definitely not him because the man wasn't as big as Murat - I think I would have recognised him because I'd met him several times previously.

He was wearing beige trousers and a darker top. We all put him in his early 40s and I didn't think he was Portuguese."

Mr Smith's sighting is similar to the one reported by Jane Tanner, a friend of the McCann family.

A spokesman for the McCanns said detectives from the Spanish agency hired to investigate the case are now hoping to speak to the Smiths.

Retired Mr Smith, 58, does not wish to appear on camera in order to protect his family from media intrusion.


Irishman saw Gerry carry Maddie, 07 July 2008

Irishman saw Gerry carry Maddie Correio da Manhã

Final report - CM reveals everything about the investigation in an exclusive

07 July 2008 - 00h30
Thanks to 'astro' for translation

Extract:

Martin Smith, an Irishman, told the Polícia Judiciária that he saw a man carrying a child, that looked like Maddie to him, approximately around supper time on the 3rd of May.

The deposition of the witness was collected right at the beginning of the investigation, but the lack of complementary elements about the individual who was carrying the child did not lead the investigators to other diligences.

Days later, already back in his home country, Martin Smith contacted the Irish authorities. He asserted that when he saw the case on television and at the moment when he saw Gerry's face for the first time, when he was descending from an airplane, he had no doubts left. The man who carried the child on the day of the disappearance was her father.

The information was sent to the Portuguese authorities during a phase when the PJ still centered the process on the abduction theory. And, according to the final report, the lead was not followed up because at the time when Martin says he saw Gerry, the latter was having dinner at the Tapas Restaurant.

What the investigators established later on was that, after all, the reconstruction of the evening that was sustained by the group, was not straightforward. In truth, nobody knows at exactly what time each element of the group was present at the restaurant, given the fact that several of the English got up from the table in a more or less alternate manner during the dinner at the Ocean Club.

The PJ later equated the hearing of the witness through a rogatory letter. But the diligence ended up not being carried out, given the fact that without complimentary evidence, no results would be reached anyway.


Police files give McCanns 'hope', 05 August 2008

Police files give McCanns 'hope' BBC News

Page last updated at 17:35 GMT, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 18:35 UK

Extract:

Other new information revealed in the files includes the account of one witness who reported seeing a man carrying a young girl with blonde hair on the night of the disappearance. He later told the police the man could have been Madeleine's father.

Martin Smith, 58, on holiday at the time, was interviewed by detectives in Portugal and his native Ireland but the line of inquiry was later discarded.

Four months after his initial statement Mr Smith contacted the police to say he had seen Madeleine's parents arriving back in Britain on BBC News, and the way Mr McCann carried one of the couple's twins reminded him of the man he had seen in Portugal.

When detectives replayed video footage of the couple's arrival at East Midlands airport, the witness said he was 60-80% sure that the man he passed was Gerry McCann.

But this was later dismissed by prosecutors because at the time of the reported sighting, shortly before 2200, Gerry McCann was sitting in the Ocean Club's tapas bar with other members of his party.


Gerry was also in a "sighting", 19 August 2008

My name is Maddie. They took me from my holidays Público (no online link, appears in paper edition only)

By Andreia Sanches and Paul Torres de Carvalho
19 August 2008
Thanks to 'lisbonirish' for translation

Extract:

Gerry was also in a "sighting"

On 26 May, Martin Smith, an Irishman described by the Leicestershire police as a "decent" man who was not looking for fame, came to Portugal to give a statement to the PJ and tell them what he saw on the night of 3 May 2007, at around 10.00 p.m., in a street in Praia da Luz: a man carrying a child in his arms, with the child's head resting on the man's left shoulder.

The image he saw: a man approximately 175 to 180 cm tall (5' 9" to 5' 11"), 34/35 years old, short brown hair, and carrying a blonde girl wearing pyjamas "roughly four years of age", has never gone out of his head, he said.

On 20 September, the Irishman once again contacted the authorities. He was "distressed", going on to explain that when he saw the McCanns on the TV news on 9 September getting off the plane that had just landed in England, now as "arguidos" he sensed that he was witnessing a "repeat of the events of the night" on which he had seen the man "carrying the child back in Portugal". The way Gerry was carrying one of his children, Sean, whose head was resting on his shoulder, was "exactly" the same way the unidentified man in Portugal carried his child.

The PJ asked for more information. On 23 January Mr. Smith gave another statement to the police in Drogheda, Ireland. He repeated that he was 60 to 80 per cent sure that the man he had seen carrying a child in Praia da Luz was Gerry.

In the final report on the investigation, the PJ guarantee, however, that at the time Smith says he saw Gerry in the street, Madeleine's father was sitting at the table in the Tapas restaurant in the Ocean Club.

----------

From Joana Morais again an excellent and unbiased site that just wants to inform, no bias, no agenda and thanks very much to our Di for bringing this to my attention. It is time to look at what people actually say they witnessed, (other than the TAPAS group who the police clearly do not believe) just like the police do, then we may see what is staring us in the face. :

Portugal

March 2008

A British couple claim they saw a small bundle being smuggled on a jetski and taken out to sea just a few miles from where Madeleine McCann went missing.

He then appeared to take the bundle it to a small “official-looking” grey boat moored just off the coast at Salema, six miles up the coast from Praia Da Luz where Madeleine went missing last May.

Despite the fact that the couple reported their sighting to the Ocean Club resort, where the McCann family had been staying, police have not yet investigated the incident or called them in to be interviewed.

The witnesses, who did not want to be named, are from south-west England and were visiting relatives Patrick Matthews, 37, and his wife Eliza, 25, in Salema, near Praia da Luz.

February 2008

A Portuguese taxi driver has told how he picked up Madeleine McCann with a blonde woman who looked like Kate McCann and three men including one who looked like suspect Robert Murat the night of her disappearance.

Antonio Castela, 67, said he dropped off the missing girl and her English-speaking mystery companions at an Algarve hotel and watched them drive off in a blue jeep.


TAXI-DRIVER IS SURE THAT HE TOOK MADDIE IN HIS CAR IN THE NIGHT OF THE GIRL DISAPPEARANCE

“I transported that girl”

The driver remembers that he transported them in the night of the disappearance, in the 3rd of May, from the square of taxis of Monte Gordo for the Hotel Apolo, in em Vila Real de Santo Antonio. The passengers went then to a jeep. António contacted the PJ, but, as he says, no one took notice of his story.

A taxi-driver of Vila Real de Santo Antonio, in the Algarve, guarantees to have transported Maddie, Kate McCann and three men – one of them similar to Murat – in the night of the disappearance of the English girl, in the 3rd of May of last year. António Castela Cardoso, 67 years, does not forget the hour or the details of the passengers. He regrets that after having communicated the Judiciary Police of Portimão, he never received a follow up call to explain his statement. Taxi-driver, with 17 years in that profession, António Castela has the habit of memorizing the face of his clients. That one particularly, “She was a girl with very pretty eyes and she called my attention because of the sign that she had in one eye and the twitch that she was doing with the chin”, he remembered. In the beginning of that night, António was in the square of taxis of Monte Gordo, four kilometres of Vila Real de Santo Antonio, was ready to stop the cab service. “It was 20h10 and I like seeing the television news”, he remembers.

Man was similar to Murat

The clients approached and asked him to transport them to the Hotel Apolo, in Vila Real de Santo Antonio. The driver did not refuse. On his side a man seated who was using “fine glasses”. “He was similar with the one that appears in the television like the third suspect”, says António, concerning Robert Murat – who is arguido in the case. In the seat behind, a woman “like Kate” sat down, between two men. The girl that the taxi-driver says to be Maddie sat down to the lap of one of them.
“She was wearing pink pyjamas. The mother had the hair tied and a yellow coat”, he remembers, with exactness. It was a silent journey. The passengers did not exchange one word; they did not show any emotions. On the arrival to the journey destiny, António pulled out the baby's chair of the luggage car. “It was the same as what the couple usually uses”, he affirms. The customers asked him, in English language, how much the cab journey was. “I said that there were 3, 25 euros and they gave me five and then I thanked them”, he says.

Top-of-the-line Jeep

The taxi-driver saw three men, the woman and the child move towards a metallic-blue, top-of-the-line Jeep “ I do not know if it would be a BMW, but I remember that the license plate was yellow and therefore was not a Portuguese one ”, he affirms. The vehicle was parked in the Hotel Apolo parking. António returned to his house with the image of the girl in the head. It reminded him of his son, now with 37 years. “My son was operated to his eyes because he had a similar eye defect. He also did that twitch with the chin. They even looked like brothers”, he observed.
The next day, António was watching the television news besides his son and his granddaughter, with the same age of Maddie. With astonishment he saw that the blond girl of light eyes had disappeared. “I immediately told my son: ' I transported that girl yesterday! ’ ”.
The son, a police officer of the GNR, advised the father to phone to the Judiciary Police of Portimão. “ He (the son) dialled the number and I said what I am telling you (to the journalist of 24 Horas newspaper)”, he remembers to 24horas.
The inspector who answered then asked him if in the hotel there was a system of video vigilance. The taxi-driver did not know.
Up to today, António waits the police contact to give declarations personally. “I defend the girl as I would defend my granddaughter”, he affirms.
Some days later, out of curiosity, António still asked for informations to some of his acquaintances, at the service of the Hotel Apolo. He was told that there was not any reservation for that evening. They also told him that the Hotel had not been contacted by the Judiciary Police. Even worse. The system of video vigilance was damaged two years ago and was not catching any image. “Also I do not know if they did enter in the hotel”, says the taxi-driver.

Since then, António Castela has been accompanying the news on Maddie. When the telephone rings, he still thinks that it will be someone who investigates the case that want to speak with him. When he knew that a certain period of time was still to be explained in the investigation, António Castela immediately thought that this might be the explanation. “In two hours you can travel from Aldeia da Luz to Vila Real de Santo Antonio and return. Someone can be lying. They should establish if Kate did not go away during this period”, says António.

The taxi-driver has been telling this history in public establishments and to clients whom he transports. Only this week a journalist of the “Jornal do Algarve” contacted him to publish what the driver affirms to have seen. “Now they do not leave me alone. Tomorrow [today] there is a team coming from England on purpose to interview me”, he says.
Madeleine McCann disappeared mysteriously from the Ocean Club, in Aldeia da Luz, in the 3rd of May. 300 days already have passed since. The parents are still arguidos in the process, but up to now nobody managed to know what it went on that night.

From Correio da Manhã: A source connected with the investigation guaranteed that the facts told by António Castela were "investigated" and the “lead was proven false”.

Madeleine has no Twitches

Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, reacted yesterday with amazement at the declarations of the taxi-driver. “The declarations of Mr. Castela are false. They are a perfect nonsense. He can only be mistaken when he says that at that time he transported Kate and Madeleine with three men”, he said, underlining the fact of being several independent witnesses who place Madeleine's parents in a completely different place. “How is that possible, if at 20h35 several witnesses say that Kate and Gerry were sitting down on a table of the Tapas restaurant”, he questioned. Clarence doubts of the intentions of the taxi-driver. “It astonishes me that only now, ten months later, he talks about this. These are declarations that only cause pain to Kate and Gerry", he said, advancing that that the McCann's daughter has no facial twitches.
“The only sign to report is the one she has in the eye.”

THEY TOOK FIVE MONTHS TO READ A LETTER

The Inspectors of the Judiciary Police are already preparing the suitcases to travel again to Leiceister, where the McCanns and the friends with whom they had dinner with will be questioned again. The team led by Paulo Rebelo finally received green light from England.

English speak again with the Judiciary Police

With the suitcases done, the Judiciary Police is already finalizing with the English authorities the details for, five months after the sending to Great Britain of a rogatory letter, their return to question the McCanns and the friends with whom they had dinner with when Madeleine disappeared, on the 3rd of May, in the Praia da Luz, in Lagos, Algarve.
“The rogatory letter was returned in January to the Public Prosecution Office, for lack of completion of some bureaucratic proceedings. It was remade and then returned to the English Home Office in the beginning of this month. Finally, the letter it’s already in the possession of the Police of Leicester and we are finalizing the details to give completion to the solicitations done by the British authorities”, it explained to 24horas a judicial person in charge connected with the investigations. According to the same source, everything left done is now a mere “schedulement in order that the interrogations are prepared to the friends of the McCann and to the parents of the lost girl themselves, an organized plan that will have to be ended during next week.
In ten days a team of Portuguese investigators will travel to England, they will attend the interrogations, as the interrogations themselves will be done by the police officers of Leicester. “We can only hear, analyse the expressions of the persons and suggest some questions that do not appear in the rogatory letter”. The first persons to be questioned
will be Jane Tanner, David Paine and Russel O'Brien, whose lawyers revealed the intention of their clients to alter their first statements.

Source: Jornal 24 horas
page 22
page 23




by Joana Morais

209 comments:

1 – 200 of 209   Newer›   Newest»
hope4truth said...

Morning

I still cant get my head around the fact that Madeleine was handed over to someone alive and the abduction was planned by the McCann's? If it was true that she was going to a family memeber why change the plans?

I find them both cold and strange re Madeleine but to hand Madeleine over to strangers?

Maybe I have been spun and there is nothing wrong with Madeleines eye so if she was given to someone a quick hair cut and kept out of sight for a year she could re apear at any time with a new name and false memories. Maybe Kate and Gerry can look so happy on her 4th Birthday because they have found somewhere they know she will be very happy and treated well and in their own minds think they and she will be a lot happier without each other?

Who knows it seems very far fetched to me and there are a lot of better ways to do this which is why I think anything that happend did not have much time for planning.

Odd again that the Smith Family back up JTs sighting of bundel man yet they dont use this as part of their search for Madeleine so maybe this could have been Gerry taking her to a boat? She could have been alive or dead. How many times have we lifted our own children out of a car when they are flat out they are a dead weight and holding them safeley is awkward as they dont help..

xxx

viv said...

Hiya Hope

Maybe we should look again at what Mrs Justice Hogg said in July 2008, i.e way beyond the date when the Portuguese Police had accused the McCanns of murdering her but still they continued to investigate them. This is a direct appeal to the conscience of that "ONE PERSON" who knows where Maddie is and that she hopes she will be found alive and well. I believe she was appealing directly to Gerry McCann to co-operate and say what has happened to Maddie. Rebelo and the British Police had been investigating the case for several months by that stage, remember and the Serious Organised Crime Agency and even the Attorney General herself directly intervened in these proceedings, they were considered so serious, and they were so determined Kate and Gerry were NOT going to see the files of any British agencies in the UK, they backed down, now why did they do that? They had no choice!

“There is, of course, one person who knows what has happened to Madeleine and where she may be found,” the judge said.


“I ponder about that person - whether that person has a heart and might understand what it must be like for Madeleine to have been taken and secreted from her parents and siblings and those she loved and felt secure with.

“I ponder whether that person has a conscience or any feeling of guilt or remorse or even cares about the hurt that has been caused to an innocent little girl, and whether that person has a faith or belief and what explanation or justification they might give to God.

“I entreat that person, whoever they may be, to show mercy and compassion and come forward now and tell us where Madeleine is to be found.

“I hope she will be found soon, alive and well.”

hope4truth said...

Hi Viv

The only way I can see Madeleine turning up alive and well would be for her to be found wandering somewhere (like Shannon was supposed to be left in a market to be found) or their detctives recieve a tip off and they fly in SAS style to rescue her (while the kidnappers get away),,,

How can they come clean now if this is what they have done? It is imposible they will never get past it even if they go to jail how would they re enter society?

Of course especialy if she has been treated well I dont give a damn how they find her it will be a wonderful day as long as she as important as Shannon and looked after protected and loved that is all I care about...

IMHO the McCanns can be seen as heros by the world if Madeleine is safe and is protected I just cant get this poor child out of my mind and for a mirical to happen and for her to be alive well and happy would be wonderful....

xxx

viv said...

Hiya Hope

I do not even know if this is what has actually happened it is just that it seems most likely to me.

As ever, it is the conduct of Team McCann itself that makes me feel this way. Look at this post to me from Tony Bennett:

He says he is quoting me but misses out the sighting of the Smiths because that is obviously far more certain than the sighting of Jane Tanner. It names Gerry McCann, now if he is on our side and is genuinely trying to make the McCanns look bad, why would he do such a thing!

He is not answering my question at all, he never does and that is another thing he has in common with Team McCann, apart from his offical looking Madeleine Foundation with a paypal button. There is something that seriously stinks about all this.

Just to make matters worse and in clear breach of terms and conditions he then joins the current demands being made by Rosie et al for full details of my former career in the law. What the hell has that got to do with them and why does he sound just like them? Stupid pseudo legal talk as though he is on the other side of a court room to me, trying to score points, what is that all about, given we are supposedly on the same side!

I just do not have a clue how Gerry can suddenly come clean now but the Judge feels Maddie is "secreted". I can only conclude he has a lot of pressure put on him or they are honing in on where she might be. But I do think it is something to do with this trip to Portugal. It was a different Gerry to the one we have previously seen, he seemed frightened and humbled to me. He talked about working more with the authorities and he said it was a "scoping exercise" to see what else could be done to find her. His usual bizarre turn of phrase.

I am not saying Maddie alive or trying to build your hopes up or anyone else's. In fact lots of people seem upset because it is like they just want to be sure she is dead. We did talk about this on DE I can remember and I clearly recall saying, if I had to choose between whether my child was being brutally abused or dead I would choose death. But we have seen some rather inappopriate pictures of Maddie and her described by John Corner, Gerry and others as "beautiful" etc, very inappropriate words to describe a tiny tot. There are other ways children can be used for filthy pictures etc without actually killing them, but then I reason, surely these people would secrete her body and kill her if they thought they might be tracked down with her. I am not saying I am providing any answers at all really but I just think this scenario, sadly in a way, seems more likely. The chances of her being secreted somewhere and actually being well treated do seem pretty remote but I suppose anything is possible. Maybe if that were the case things would not be quite so bad for Kate and Gerry but the fraud and the terrible waste of police time and the trauma to Maddie of waking up with strangers. Maybe they are negotiating admitting where she is for a lighter sentence. It is all conjecture really, but I just do believe she was carted off by Gerry that night and I believe the McCanns absolutely knew they could not be charged with her death in that apt because it just was not true. However, what they may have done could be far worse than that.

I just hope we all get some answers soon, but the spin from appalling people like Tony Bennett who was even dishonest to his own employers is definitely not helping!

Post subject: Re: 60 Reasons Book (merged)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:45 am
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viv wrote:
Do you not want to answer then Tony? Maybe I am just an old cynic, but from the comfort of my lovely chair, it looks to me like you just want to get people talking about anything but the fact that Jane Tanner and the Smith Family saw Gerry carry Maddie off. I am sure I am just being cynical


Please cite as fully as possible from your research on the case every occasion on which Jane Tanner says (and I quote you):

"Jane Tanner saw Gerry carry Maddie off".

Also, please state whether, when you say you are an 'ex-lawyer', you are an ex-Solicitor or an ex-Barrister.

It can only be one of those two, otherwise you are not an 'ex-lawyer' as you claim

viv said...

Ah, a post from ICTOAN yesterday, I was wondering what happened to him, best of luck and get wi-fi ing mate!

Hope you are having a great time in the US whatever you are up to!

xx

Hope

If I can find a WiFi Source on my travels I will be able to continue to post. Biggest problem with the RV is the electrical circuits are 110 volt (a la USA) so finding compatible appliances is a bit of a problem.

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
Found your latest article very interesting and obviously is possible but if Madeleine was alive when Gerry carried her off, does that not make the dogs findings worthless and also Goncola Amaral has stated he believes Madeleine dead, and does not Docmac believe her to be dead,as he has had info albeit 3rd hand from the Tapas group, am not trying to dispute your theory but am curious as to why you have changed your mind as I had the impression that you used to believe Madeleine had died that night and the parents covered this up with the help of their friends? Lizzy x

viv said...

Hiya Lizzy

Let us say I had a "lightbulb" moment when a friend of Tony Bennett's " mice and men" on 3 Arguidos was seriously arguing the toss with me on there, trying to defend the highly judgmental and inaccurate book he has written. Whilst she was arguing with me, she referred to the Order of Mrs Justice Hogg and I noticed that the Judge made Maddie a Ward of Court in April 2008, not May 2007 as Clarence Mitchell announced. Clearly a lot more investigation had been done by the police at that stage on top of what Goncalo had done. It has always been the case from what we were told the police were investigating both scenarios, death and abduction. I think we always fought shy of the abduction theory because we just knew those two were involved and thought that by admitting she might have been abducted that would actually be agreeing with what they have to say, but when you look at it, very far from it. I have always thought that Goncalo took a lenient view of the facts in relatin to what they may have done, but he does say he is holding quite a bit back and I am sure he is. He is an ex very senior police officer and would not do anything at all to prejudice this case so my view is what he may be holding back is what I am saying! He is stating where the case was at the last time he worked on it and clearly they were looking at that time as to whether the Mcs did kill her in that apt and maybe they did. I have tried to put this forward as an alternative becaue I think it is a very good one and as I say explains the strange situation we seem to get from the police of saying they were investigating both scenarios. I think they were but perhaps what we did not grasp was, they might the McCanns were involved in both. That is my view too, whatever they did with Maddie it was them and not some fantasy predator, that was completely impossible and they could have no need for all the lies and lack of co-operation with the police we have seen.


In fact they have been their own worst enemies! The more they have spun,obfuscated and confused the more we have suspected them.

Doc is or was a supporter of Tony Bennett so erm what can I say, I have made up my mind about him just the same as I have with the McCanns. But I would still be happy if he came back, if only because he really makes me laugh! I do not expect everyone to agree with me, this is another hypothesis and clearly the police were running both as well and could not conclusively come down in favour of one or the other!

In fact I would be happy if people completely disagreed with me because then we can keep all options open and that is fair I think!

xx

viv said...

In relation to the dogs, I think when you look at what PC Grime actually says he is very clearly stating they can detect old blood and that the findings can in no way be taken as evidence. They would need corroboration by forensics. I think the situation with Goncalo was it appeared to be confirmed and then it was not! So you can hardly blame him!

I think it is very odd that he wanted to to do the obvious thing and had he stil been on the investigation and got he further forensics back and spoken with the Smiths he may have changed his view but I do not really know.

xx

viv said...

In fact Lizzy I got a comment from one of the admins on 3 As that really shocked me, she told me that I knew perfectly well Goncalo was not taken off the investigation

"for something as trivial as the Smith sighting"

Now forgive but I do not think the Smith sighting was trivial and I find it extraordinary that anyone would suggest that it was. I know for a fact Goncalo thought it was highly significant and was frustrated he was prevented from following that up by being taken off the case. I just have to wonder why on earth they did that!

xx

Wizard said...

Quote of the Day - Looking back on the Madeleine case - courtesy of Joana Morais’s blog:-

"In a way, we would like to have been accused so we could defend ourselves openly. Now, reading the process, there is no evidence that justifies the suspicion, apart from the dogs' action. There was never a sustained explanation. And the questioning: 'What happened to Madeleine? How did you get rid of her? Who helped you? Where did you put her?' All fantasy! If they had found DNA – so what? And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment – why would that be our fault?"

Gerry McCann, to Expresso, on 07.09.2007

dylan said...

Good morning all!

I think I may have ESP as ICTOAN popped back just after I'd mentioned his name and I was thinking last night that I hadn't seen Lizzy for a while, and now you are here Lizzy! :-)))

ICTOAN, have a wonderful time on your travels. You deserve it :-))

Niki, well done with giving up smoking, that's a huge credit to your willpower. x

Viv, I am obviously a stubborn old mule as, try as I might, I just can't see Gerry abducting Maddie. I wish GA's book would come out here and I'm sure it will. Sometimes it's good to jog my memory and remind myself of all of that info that is in my head that has now become so confused after nearly two years of discussion and debate! Of course, it is better to be able to be objective and see many different facets of something that none of us know with any certainty, and there's nothing wrong with changing a point of view when we try to look at things from a different angle - well done to you on that, Viv!

However, I believe that Madeleine died on 3/5 for reasons that I have already given, and if something does happen that changes my mind on that, I promise that I will openly admit it! I think that that is the best that I can say at the moment!

Off now as I have to do a food shop. I really hate going to the supermarket too so I'll be in a better mood when I get back :-)

xx

viv said...

Ah speaking of those dogs Wizard and good morning to you and Dilly:

The clearly very intelligent Luz on 3 As tries to reason with those who want to see something in this report that is not there! As they say, they go round and round and round and do not give up, maybe they should! I think they would like to seriously interrogate PC Grimes, maybe even put him on the rack and get him to stop saying such things, because they just must have a corpse to discuss, bizarre! :

"They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

The dogs searched other places in Praia da Luz, as can be determined from Mr. Grimes report
[ viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25377 ]


OPERATION TASK CANINE DEPLOYMENTS 1-8 AUGUST 2007

On the instruction of The PJ Director, The Portuguese police kept all search
records concerning the deployment of the search dogs. All dog searches were
recorded by video.

The following searches were conducted:


Five apartments at a complex in Praia Da Luz.
Mr. Murat's property at Praia Da Luz.
Mr. McCann's Villa at Praia Da Luz ( Present occupancy).
Articles of clothing from Mr. McCann's residence.
Western beach Praia da Luz.
Eastern Beach Praia Da Luz. ( according to Amaral's book, any chance of signaling here was doomed due to the sea water smell)
10 Vehicles screened at Portimao.

...the dogs only signaled property belonging or associated with the McCann, even though Mr. Grimes was very cautious about the interpretation of these findings.

From the rogatory of Mr. Grimes [http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25860 ]:

«The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for “live” human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of “fresh blood”. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

“Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids?”
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
Red cells 40-50%
Plasma 55% (of which 95% is water)
White cells
Platelets
DNA can only be removed from white cells.
This would suggest that, of the samples signalled by the dog looking for human blood, approximately 5% are available for DNA tests.

“Is there any chance, however remote, of any confusion”
The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.

“How long does a cadaver have to be in contact with a surface or an object for the odour to be detected?”
Cross-contamination is immediate.

“How long can a trace of blood remain at a scene and be detected by the CSI dog”?
During both training and operations, the CSI dog correctly located and signalled the presence of blood from 1960. This is not at all surprising. If enough blood is present so that the dog can recognize its odor, he will locate it and alert to its presence. There is no time restriction as regards the recognition of the odour by the dog. Blood, however, is subject to deterioration such as time and other natural processes such as dilution due to rain and other reactive chemical agents.»

I don't see what difference does it make if both dogs give signal to blood or only one of them! Maybe I am missing the point.

viv said...

Well Wizard, supporting my current hypothesis I would say that is smart arsed Gerry in action. Go on then put us on trial for killing her in that apartment ha ha, that is not what we did at all!

What he does not choose to mention is the myriad reasons both we, the general public and the police know that this couple are involved in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

The only reason these two were so upset about the dogs IMO is the usual reason, they do not care about Maddie but they cared about trying to protect their reputation. Now they care about people making themselves look silly and even employed one to spread the word!

Gerry is one who likes to smirk and deceive, let us show him he is not doing that!

xx

viv said...

Every now and then they do change their strategy just a bit. Bennett started up last October, remember the recent little pieces in 24 Horas, one of Mitchell's favourite Portuguese papers (and there are not many) featuring the gruesome double act, him and Bennett!

xx

viv said...

Dilly, I cannot wait to get Goncalo's book because there are so many facets of their behaviour that we have discussed on this blog that could apply equally to them being involved in her homicide or being involved in her kidnapping.

The Police obviously took as their starting point the pathetic lies about this phantom stalking predator "breaking into the apartment and taking Maddie from her bed".

It does not take a lot of working out that dead or alive Gerry was that phantom predator!

xx

viv said...

BBL both x

Di said...

Good afternoon all

Another thought that came to mind regarding the fact that we now know the patio door could not be closed from the outside. I am therefore assuming it could not be opened either which is why the previous occupants always had to use the front door.

Mrs Fenn states that she heard a child crying for over an hour which only stopped when she heard the patio door opening. Is it only me that thinks this had to be someone leaving?

hope4truth said...

Hi DI

I dont understand the thing about the patio door...

I think the people who stayed there had to leave by the front door because it could not be locked or unlocked from the outside...

If it was left unlocked (and open enough to put your fingers in to push it open) it would be easy to use as an entrance and exit... In fact I have just closed my patio doors and by putting my hand on the glass with preasue I can open and close them without using the handle...

No one on holiday would go out leaving the door unlocked just in case their valubles were stolen but if you did not care about those or sleeping children then the door would be fine to use...

xxx

Wizard said...

Hi Viv, I like the new tact you’ve taken as it gives us an opportunity to re-evalutate our thoughts and ideas on what might have happened to MBM. I’ve taken some of the questions you have posed and given an opinion. Whether I’m right or wrong is anyones guess but I have tried a logical approach which in some circumstances it not the best way as fact can be stranger than fiction.

Q “Would he carry a dead Maddie through the streets? I really don't think so!”

A I don’t think so either it is too risky. Although the recently dead look no different from the living I still think it unlikely. I think the question here is did the Smith’s really see Gerry or someone else I suspect it was someone else. Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable.

Q “Why would the McCanns want everyone to keep talking about a death theory on let's face it, no evidence? Could it be to stop people focussing on these witnesses below that given an insight into what really happened?”

A I think the McCanns want everyone to concentrate on an abduction theory and possible death via a stranger to distance themselves from any involvement they might have in MBM’s disappearance.

Q Why is it that when every other benefactor of the McCanns pulls out of supporting them in September 2007, Brian Kennedy vows to use his fortune and support them to his dying day?

A A lot of benefactors may well have pulled out because the McCanns are suspect and it isn’t such a good idea to be associated with them. Kennedy’s actions in all this are strange and open to speculation. Unless we personally know the man its difficult to say, it might just be he has the type of personality they doesn’t like to be proved wrong and the dosh to ensure this doesn’t happen.

Q If Gerry did cart her off alive but drugged down to the beach that night and hand her over to some "predator" in a boat, then what he has done is far worse than losing his temper with her and killing her, overdosing her or leaving her to have some "accident", he is truly the most despicable example of a parent we could possibly imagine.

A Very true but what is Gerry’s motive in all this, well the money as you point out. I think this is extremely unlikely as they both have good salaries and the potential to earn more with time. The amount in the fund is substantial but not enough for this kind of deception unless you have no money like Shannon’s family and an earning potential of zilch the risk is too great.

Q Why would you just happen to have a couple of 6 x 4 pictures of little Maddie all done up in her football outfit with you, on holiday and then use that same football team to draw in massive cash for his "fighting fund" as he called it in the early stages?

A I would think they were using a digital camera that had a large memory. I can store 300/400 pictures on mine. I suspect some older photographs taken at home were still in the camera memory when they went on holiday. M in the football shirt is the one they choose to release quite likely for the reasons you give.

Q Why did Mrs Justice Hogg decided to make Maddie a Ward of Court in April 2008? Would she bother to do that in relation to a child she knows is dead or would she do that because she fears the child may still be alive but at grave risk of very serious harm?

A I would suspect if Justice Hogg had any sense she would see there was a possibility of MBM and her parents not having the same agenda. The courts would look after MBM’s interests dead or alive in a completely unbiased way which she felt the parents could not.

Q Tanner and Smith’s sightings similar were they both reporting on the same man - Gerry?

A I think they could be describing the same man. However, the motive for Tanner’s sighting imo was to cover for O’Brien who was missing during the crucial time when MBM’s parents argue she was taken. As he has opportunity he would be suspect therefore her sighting was cover for him. JT made this sighting not when she said she did as she would have been seen by GM or JW. She says she saw them to substantiate her being at the scene at a specific time which would suggests an abduction had already taken place prior to O’Brien leaving the table therefore placing him in the clear. She may well have seen the man the Smith’s saw but later in the evening when she was returning to her apartment.

Niki said...

Good afternoon all:-) (Have left a post on yesterdays tread Di, Viv, Dyl, Hope, Zodiac:-))

Viv, you are very convincing in your new "theory", but I'll just stick to the old one...


"False positives – Eddie, the dog that specialized in cadaver odour detection, has never given a false alert. He has participated in approximately 200 searches in homicide scenarios in Great Britain and never signalled any products that derived from meat or any other food item.

Human blood – Keela was trained exclusively with human blood; blood that is subject to strict testing and which comes from hospitals. She locates contaminated guns, smells vehicles and clothing items, and accurately detects residues, even if the locations are subject to cleaning."

"In the report, Mark Harrison says that it is very unlikely that the body was buried in the sand. The English policeman defends that a launch into the sea is the most likely scenario, while the body should also be searched for within an area of cliffs and dense bushes that lies east of Praia da Luz."


Matthew Oldfield and Russel O'Brian had done sailing and canoing during their holidays. They would know where to find a canoe, paddle out far enough to drop a weighted bag....
Gerry might very well have carried Madeleine down to the beach. As someone told me more than a year ago, it would look more suspicious with someone carrying a bag than a "sleeping" child;-)

hope4truth said...

Hi Niki

Will have a look back in a second...

Well done with the smoking !!!

Hope you are well what is the weather like with you???

xxx

Wizard said...

Hi Niki,
I have to agree with you regarding the dogs finding. The dogs alerted to the smell of a human corpse in the bottom of the cupboard in the bedroom, behind the sofa in the sitting room and outside in the garden by the patio stairs entrance. The aroma was also found on an item of MBM’s clothing plus her mothers and also on items bible, car fob, cuddles cat carried by her mother.

I think the McCann reason for the dogs find of the aroma of a human corpse is extremely unlikely. With regard to the dogs alerting to human blood, well that imo is not as important as it could well have come from a minor accident, and cannot be proven to have come from MBM unequivocally anyway.

I still hold the view MBM was dead before the McCanns left to go to the Tapis bar on the evening of 3 May as the most likely reason she is mis

hope4truth said...

Hey Wizard

Well as this sad case get's odder by the day maybe the Cadavar scent was planted by the McCann's?

The places it was found on the Bible CC only on Kate's Clothes (which unless Gerry dumped his rules him out as bundle man carying a dead child)...

The whole thing is bizare for one reason...

IF this was pre planned it was very badly carried out..

They would have had to have people helping them if it was a planned abduction and much better she was taken from a public area with no CCTV (which would not be hard to find)...

They are both inteligent and with help would have pulled this off in a much cleverer way...

Which is why I keep comming back to (hopefuly) an accident and a rush to decide what to do...

xxx

hope4truth said...

From my last comment I do not mean I hope Madeleine is dead but hopefully if she is by their hands it was an accident and not Murder...

xxx

Wizard said...

Hi there Hope,

The dogs picking up the scent in the garden by the patio stairs I think is quite telling. I have considered that M was dead prior to the 3rd May but I now understand on the afternoon of 3rd May there were only 4 children in MBM’s section of the nursery. So could the nursery staff have really made a mistake? It’s always possible, but now I don’t think so.

This brings me back to the death smell by the patio stairs. I think GM was moving the body and rested it in shrubbery in the garden stuck his head outside the gate to see if the coast was clear and much to his horror saw Jes Wilkins and was forced to talk to him before he could complete his actions.

When I look at the actions immediately after the alarm was raised they appear to be the actions of people who have engaged in a brain storming exercise on “what would you do if your child was abducted by a stranger”. However this is a rather intellectual pursuit and it would appear the emotional side of it all wasn’t given much thought.

Zodiac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Di said...

Hi Hope

Thanks for doing the door test, I will have to call you Miss Marple from now on.

Hi Niki

Gosh those withdrawal symptoms sound terrible, I am not surprised you don't want to touch another cigarette. I think most people would have a cigarette to get rid of the withdrawal symptoms so well done to you for not giving up.

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

Niki,

Well done and poor you having to go through those horrendous withdrawal symptoms. Glad you and your family are better.

I am sticking to my own theory and GA's theory and the dogs confirm my thoughts since 4/5/07 and nothing has changed my mind since then.

I personally believe the:

Can be found alive and well or in good health.

Is to keep money coming in to a Fund that is possibly drying up as Joe Public wise up on a daily basis and keep their cash to themselves. I also believe the recent return to PT is possibly PR spin such as:

See we did ask for the process to continue (not on the date they legally could though...hmmm wonder why?) but PT is not interested. Poor us send us your money (remember brown envelopes will do) to fund our own working incredibly hard behind the scenes searches and investigation that you have not a hope in hell of seeing just what was done and where the donations have gone! Oh except for the fact you know we only go luxury on our travel now low cost is in the past at the moment!

Di said...

Wasn't it said by GA that G & K were very nervous about the dogs.

I also think the phone activity, especially Kates has to be taken into account.

Can anyone remember which evening it was that Kate's mobile was very active and again early the following morning?

Wizard said...

Di – Kate’s phone activity was on the 2nd May and the morning of 3rd May hence the theory that M died on the 2nd May.

Di said...

Thanks Wizard it is so difficult to remember all the information.

If only we could get details of those conversations I think the case would then be solved.

Niki said...

Hi:)

Wizard, I'm with you on that theory in your 14.28 post!

Zodiac, if it was a planned abduction there HAD to be more reliable, easier ways of putting it in action?!?

It has been an abduction of a ship-owner here in Greece recently. He was 8 days in captivety before his family paid 30 MILLION Euroes in ransom!!

The kidnappers are free...

hope4truth said...

Di

I am sat here in St Mary Mead in my hat and gloves looking at all the evidence LOL

I can come up with many story's of how a child is missing at the drop of a hat...

But when testing if they work it is clear I would be caught out in a heartbeat if I went along with some...

Then there is the reaction from all the people involved they needed to pretend they did not know it was a set up and although a waste of time they should have been searching gathering their own children together in one apartment so they could take it in turns to protect them while people were out and about looking for Maeleine..

The Twins would never have returned to the Creche as far as the parents were concerned they may be a target as well someone there could have taken them...

And as for photo ops Kate tried looking whistful but their joyful smiles should have been kept for in the apartment and they should have employed someone to blog for them as the blogs were ODD and totaly out of place...

What a mess poor Madeleine x

Wizard said...

Hope,

“I am sat here in St Mary Mead in my hat and gloves looking at all the evidence”

I know just what you mean here am I in my Baker Street apartment smoking my pipe which is playing hell with my asthma. Dr Watson is not much use in this sorry mess because as you know the medical profession all stick together! lol

Di said...

My daughter gave me some Magazines that she had finished with.

The Daily Express have a page advertising their paper in one of them.

Headline- Madeleine- Father played tennis after she vanished.

The father of Madeleine McCann stunned staff by organising a game of tennis while the massive hunt for his daughter was underway, it was revealed yesterday.

Waiter Jose Baptista 45, told how the staff were amazed by the clam demeanour of Gerry McCann and his wife Kate in the agonising days after Madeleine disappeared.

Heart specialist Gerry 39, is also said to have regularly wandered down to the Tapas bar at the family's holiday complex where he was given free bottles of wine to take back to his apartment. Mr Baptista added that staff rarely saw the McCanns display any emotion away from the cameras.

"If my kid disappeared I'd go insane. I wouldn't be able to function. They'd have to lock me away" said Mr Baptista.

"They were so cool about it All the staff commented about how they were able to play tennis and things calmly. Everybody around them seemed more upset than they were."

The rest is inside so cannot continue.

The date of the paper is Wed Oct 24 2007.

It is interesting to re-read some of these headlines.

Di said...

Hope

That was one of the things I found odd, the twins going back to the creche. If it was me I would not have let them out of my sight. How did they not know it was a member of staff that was the supposed abductor. I honestly don't think I would have left them with family either, I would have wanted to keep them close.

hope4truth said...

Wizard

ROFLMAO you want to take a leaf out of Nikis book and give up that pipe mate (know what you mean about Doctor Watson)he will point you in all the wrong directions...

xxx

hope4truth said...

DI

I remeber Gerry playing tennis totaly wrong behaviour in such a serious situation... Karen Mathews filled a trolley with free alcohol when the supermarket offered her free shopping (greed)...

I can understand them needing a drink (anything to numb the pain) but to keep going back for more free wine is not a good look...

Also I am careful who looks after my girls now if god forbid one went missing I would have a hard time letting the other out of my sight again...

xxx

Wizard said...

The report by Jose Baptista is very telling but indicates very baffling behaviour on the part of the Mcs. Firstly, if MBM was abducted the last thing most people would do is dump their remaining children in the crèche and go play a game of tennis. Equally, if they killed M accidentally or otherwise they should have been deeply upset and tennis would not have been on the agenda. If you take Viv’s view that Gerry might have kidnapped Madeleine well would they not to have the sense to see how playing tennis would look when they are insisting she was taken by a stranger

Di said...

Hope/Wizard

Very odd behaviour I just cannot imagine anyone being able to function let alone think of playing tennis. Also odd that their friends were more upset than them.

Zodiac said...

Hope,

'I am sat here in St Mary Mead in my hat and gloves looking at all the evidence LOL'

ROFL!

Wizard,'

'I know just what you mean here am I in my Baker Street apartment smoking my pipe which is playing hell with my asthma. Dr Watson is not much use in this sorry mess because as you know the medical profession all stick together! lol'

ROFL!

Whilst you two are trying to solve the mystery of the mysterious disappearance. The team are working incredibly hard behind the scenes knitting by the lorry load their woolly hats, with the special extra thick wool, pull over the eyes visor to be included as a free gift with every UK newspaper!

Zodiac said...

Di,

Thanks for a refresher of that article I remember reading it in the DE days. Their behaviour imo has been odd since seeing them on 4/5/07 and onwards. Having read some of the DVD statements and Rog. Int's it seemed odd since 3/5/07. The blah blah alive and well, no evidence of any harm yet claim she was taken to order by an organised paedophile ring are the odd icing on their odd cake imo!

hope4truth said...

Hi Zodiac

Oh that is what I am missing a knited thing to pull the wool over my eyes (all will become clear then and I will worship at the feet of the pink plonker)..

xxx

Di said...

Spook on 3A's has a good point re the dogs.


Regardless of what all the pro McCann trolls and supporters think about the dogs there is one person who absolutely believed them, and that is Kate McCann - she was at pains to make known all the corpses she handled prior to the holiday, and to how the cadaver scent came to be on jeans and soft toys bought in Portugal!!

Spook

hope4truth said...

Di

Spook makes a very good point there I agree x

Wizard said...

Yes Di, Kate had very good reason to be worried about the dogs’ findings. It is evidence that indicates the MBM was dead before they went out to tapis bar. If this can be proved their whole story collapses like a pack of cards.

Di said...

Does anyone know if Kate's claims of 6 corpses was checked out?

Wizard said...

Di , no record of who checked this out. Gives a completely different meaning to the grave yard shift though if true.

Di said...

Wizard

Thank goodness she is not my Doctor, I wouldn't fancy my chances.

Wizard said...

6 dead patients in one week of a two day shift. If true people were just dying to see Kate.

It was reported that malingerers who saw Dr Kate coming up the garden path made miraculous recoveries and were last seen legging it at speed out the back door.

Di said...

Wizard

LOL

Di said...

Changing the subject.

The other things that has always annoyed me is the fridge.

I remember reading Gerry's blog about dumping the fridge and going out to buy a new one. If only I have saved it, as it was whooshed after being mentioned in HYS etc.,

We had a very similar situation whilst in Portugal. We had rented a villa and after one day found the fridge was not working. We went to reception and reported the situation. Within a couple of hours we received a replacement. The villa was privately owned, the same as the McCanns apartment.

I just do not understand why Gerry had to take the fridge to the tip and purchase a new one.

When I mentioned this on 3A's a while back I was pounced on, but I can honestly tell you it was on his blog.

Zodiac said...

Di

'I just do not understand why Gerry had to take the fridge to the tip and purchase a new one.'

If the above is true. He can be obliging by disposing of a fridge in a rented property and purchase a new one yet he did not oblige his children with the protection he should have as a father!

Di said...

Zodiac

I can also remember the owner of the apartment saying she was surprised as the fridge was not that old. Although this was a newspaper report.


Off now

BBL

Zodiac said...

Bye Di I am off also.

Read you all tomorrow.

Wizard said...

Anork talks about press coverage of the twins forthcoming birthday.
UK tabloid invites readers to Maddy look-alike do - details to follow…
THE PEOPLE: “MCCANN’S FACE ANOTHER FAMILY MILESTONE WITHOUT MADDY”
Tom Mctague is walking the Maddy Mile, putting in the hard yards. He has just passed another marker: Kate and Gerry McCann will this week brave another family milestone without their beloved daughter Maddie - their twins’ fourth birthday.
How is that a milestone, then? Is reaching the grand old age of four now a milestone in this paedo, pervy age? If he turns up, call the cops.
Sean and sister Amelie, who has become more like her chatty big sister, will be treated to a party at the weekend.
How does the People know what Amelie McCann is like? And if she is like her big chatty missing sister, will she now, you know..?
Pals say it will be especially poignant as Maddie was snatched in Portugal just nine days short of her own fourth birthday.
Well, done Amelie and Sean. Hurray! It’ll be great occasion - better than last year’s do. Thanks to the People we all know about it. The People’s children’s party circular could become a regular feature. Births - Marriages - Deaths - Smarty Arty.
A close family friend said last night: “Kate and Gerry love watching the twins grow up but this is going to be difficult, a painful reminder of the last time they saw Madeleine.
We are watching the twins:
“Amelie looks so like Madeleine did at her age although she has blonder hair. Even Amelie says: ‘I’m pretty, just like Madeleine!’ It makes Kate very tearful at times.
Blonder…
“Amelie loves swimming and dressing like her sister - and still carries around her sister’s Cuddle Cat toy as if it were her own.”
(Swimsuit pics on request.) Eat your heart our, Matthew Lewis. The rest of you, start blowing up balloons:
The kids’ party is expected to be held at the family home Rothley, Leics, on Sunday - a full 20 months since Gerry and Kate, both 40, last saw Maddie.
Can we get a going home prezzie?
Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “The party is a very private occasion. Kate and Gerry are busy working hard on the search for Madeleine.”
B-b-b-b-but People readers have the date, the address and description of the blonde child – yeah and him, whathisface… Sean. You can’t disappoint them. Better perhaps if the People throws its own Maddy look-alike party.
You can get an idea of what Our Maddy looks like here. And invite Kelsey Lynn Kudla, as guest of honour. Oh, and get her, too.
All tastefully done, of course…Anorak

lizzy said...

Hi Viv
Thanks for your detailed reply to my questions, I am still of the opinion that Madeleine died in the appartment but you have shown how this may not necessarily be the case and that the polce were investigating both scenarios, in view of the Mccanns dodgy excuses for the dogs alerts on the hire car and the appartment, I am inclined to think that she is dead as if not, why would they bother to hurriedly come up with possible reasons for them alerting to a corpse. But then they have not exactly behaved rationally or as people would expect parents to behave in this situation so who knows....I do hope that they are still being investigated by the British police and will at some later date face charges but as I do believe there has been political interference do not hold out too much hope of that. I think Viv that Tony Bennett is acting strangely in wanting to try to say that you are not the legally trained person you so obviously are, why should he be doing this when you are both trying to get to the truth of what happened to Madeleine? Very odd,anyway I do believe that a lot more people are questioning the Mccanns actions now which has to be a good thing if the case is ever to be reopened. Lizzy x

nancy said...

Hi everyone,

Di,

thanks for the link to the taxi driver's story. He says he picked up three men, a woman and a little girl at around 8.30. If they were taking Maddie somewhere at that time there is no way they could have been at the tapas bar, but then we only have their accounts of what times they all arrived there and checked on the children don't we.

I have always said their checks could have all been made up and reading their statements where they are stuttering and finding it difficult to be articulate, makes it very possible that they were making most of it up.

Of course, there's no way we can say it was definitely the McCanns and the others with Maddie who he picked up, but he certainly seems to be convinced it was.

With the Smith's sightings too, it makes you wonder just how these people are still being treated as the victims, when it is clearly Maddie who is the victim, or was, whatever the truth of it is.

I personally, after reading the statements, if they were indeed the bona fide statements, don't think they were given a good enough grilling by the police. I know I would have been asking a lot more pertinent stuff than they asked them.

Like Viv and everyone,I am open to all opinions as to what happened to Maddie, but I stick to two options that I have always made, and that is:

1. Maddie and the twins (and possibly the children of the other tapas pals) were drugged (remember how Kate was testing the twins for their breathing on the night of the 3rd)and they tried to revive her but were unsuccessful.

Gerry took Maddie off somewhere instead of reporting it to the police, because they were worried about being put in prison, the twins, and all the terrible publicity that would ensue, their jobs, their stature as doctors etc. The other tapas decided to go along with it for the same reasons.

I too have great faith in the dogs, having seen the videos, and why did they just have reactions in the McCann's apartment and car! Although, as Viv says, the evidence can't be relied on, I tend to think the authorities are just being pedantic and the dogs' reactions should definitely be taken into account, otherwise why send them there in the first place.

As for someone else abducting Maddie, that is just an utter impossibility, unless these people were not checking at all on their children, believing them to be safely 'drugged'!

2. The other explanation could be that it was all a scam, that she is alive and safe somewhere and they know it. Given how soon everything was put into place with their own entourage by their side within hours, the speed of which their publicity stunts, magazine spreads, radio and television interviews, millionaires falling over themselves to give them money, etc.etc. came into effect,just how could that have taken off so quickly if it had not been thought out beforehand? And that could be why Kate was spending so much time on her mobile phone the night before eh? And that was the night Madeleine was crying for one hour and a half, poor little soul. Added to that their cool, compassionless demeanour so soon after Maddie disappeared, and what Gerry said about, find her body and prove it, and that they are convinced she is alive and well, make this second option very possible.

These are all assumptions, and none of us, except the two who weren't there when their daughter went missing (so they say) only know!


Nx

Di said...

Wizard

Thanks for the post.

"Amelie loves swimming and dressing like her sister - and still carries around her sister's Cuddle Cat toy as if it were her own"

Sorry, she has her own Cuddle Cat therefore it is her own.

Di said...

Hi Nancy

Your theories are all plausible.

I have always wondered did they actually do any checks at all. Then I seem to remember a waiter saying there was always someone missing froim the table. We then had this covered in the statements, someone was ill each night!. I do wonder if this was true.

We are lead to believe each night a member of the Tapas was ill, some holiday, but they are all perfectly well for tennis and jogging the next day.

I also remember when Mrs Fenn reported the crying, the pink one said one of the Tapas was in the apartment next door and would have heard but she heard nothing.

Sorry I forget who this was but I remember us all saying at the time why was she in someone else's apartment.

Help!

Niki said...

Di,

The Oldfields had the appartment next to McCanns. Sunday night Matthew stayed in sick, tuesday Rachel stayed in. She did not hear any crying... Tuesday was also the night when all the others went to the bar after their meal. (Does not say which bar?).
The Oldfields daughter Grace had diarreah, her parents had been vomiting, still they left her alone the other nights!!!:-((((
No wonder they were all afraid of going back to Portugal! They have all admitted neglect!

Good night everyone! It's bedtime here:-)22.00

Di said...

Thanks Niki

You are right they all admitted neglect.

Off myself now

Enjoy your evening all.

dylan said...

Hi all,

I have only just had a few minutes to sit down, finally, but I'm off to watch the telly in a mo (and eat cheese!) - it is a great thread I think as Viv's views have provoked some very interesting thoughts, recollections and discussion.

Just one thing I'd like to ask (sorry if it has been asked recently): If the scent of death had been "planted", or if the McCanns know that Madeleine was kidnapped by Gerry, why did Kate show such alarm and become upset when shown the video of the dogs?

Just a bit of food for thought & with that, I'm off!!

Viv, is it OK if I have Nancy's email as I feel spring approaching :-)

Catch you all in the morning.

xx

viv said...

Hiya all and what a lot of interesting posts again.

To take Di;s point first, the difficult of opening the patio door from the outside.. This fits with Gerry actually insisting in interviews and I believe Kate too they used their key to get in the front door. Also it is clear evidence from one who we know would not lie that that is what they did. The patio door would not work from the outside.

In fact I can remember some photos of Rebelo and his team in about October 07 trying to do that and I do not think it was possible.

Di, I have always thought that sex offending may be involved in this. The men always did the checks etc and yes I did think that it sounded like as the McCanns came throught the front door someone left via the patio and Maddie stopped crying.

Why was it so convenient and important for them to be so close together as Payne suggests for the child checking etc and why on earth would a bunch of doctors leave their children alone like they did. But I do not think MO is one of them, I think it is Payne OB and Gerry.

nancy said...

Dillon -

I will e-mail Viv,as I don't think she has my e-mail address in the UK.

Look forward to seeing you soon.

I hope your right about Spring approaching - it doesn't look that way where I'm standing!!

Nx

nancy said...

Hello Di -

I think it was Fiona Payne, but I'm not 100% sure.

The trouble is they are all such a lot of b....y liars you can't believe a word they say, or take it as gospel. It's a wonder the Police managed to make head nor tail of their statements.

If they were that sick, both the adults and the children, you would have thought they would have taken it a bit easy, but I remember Oldfield saying he was jogging with Kate every day too and liked her company, so he couldn't have been that bad.

And to be quite honest how would busy waiters in a tapas bar where they are always rushed off their feet, know who was and who wasn't there half the time. I just don't think they were checking anywhere near as much as they said, and as for Oldfield when he checked, he just looked over to the twins and didn't even bother to look to see if Maddie, who was out of his eyeline, was alright. And Gerry even thought someone might have been hiding in the bathroom but didn't bother checking when he saw the door ajar.

Fat lot of good that load of child neglecters were and they should all be held up as examples of how not to treat your kids while on holiday instead of being seen as examples to send to Belgium to promote the AmberAlert! What a laughing stock that made the UK!

nancy said...

Di -

I stand corrected. Niki has just said it was the Oldfields in the room next to the McCanns.

Well she would say she didn't hear any crying wouldn't she?

Cláudia said...

Hello, all.
Very busy times, here, at all levels.
I've been e-mailed some posts which have the potential of being hilarious (haven't read them in full)and will do it when I have time.
Still think the same. Trust the dogs completely. And not only the dogs. :-)
Hope you're all well. I will be as soon as I say Hi to my bed!
Boa noite!

viv said...

Hiya Lizzy

Well yes, the police knew for a fact they had caused Maddie's disappearance but the evidence as to who/how they killed or exactly how the caused her to disappear is thin on the ground. I am just taking what I believe is the best of that evidence and coming up with what I feel is the most likely scenario. I am also taking on board the fact the McCanns no longer seem to have any problem with people keep saying they killed her in that apt. In fact I believe they actively encourage that because they can then ridicule those who say it. Clearly there are some whose reputation is already so badly ruined they do not mind being ridiculed in the process, for a fee. I think Bennett started out doing what we know he does, interfering in big criminal cases to get himself noticed and make money but subsequently got recruited. What he has written in that booklet is to disinform the public and make them realise just how stupid these allegations against Kate and Gerry are, it is a clever ploy! He has taken his "evidence" from his own judgmental opinions not the evidence and his evidence comes from newspapers. One of his favourites is this "pact of silence". That does not prove there was no abduction at all, does it and we do not even know if it is an accurate quote of what Payne said. Either way as Nicked on 3 As has pointed out there are any number of reasons as to why they chose to have a pact of silence, not least the fact they were breaking the law by leaving their children alone! So perhaps, having read this book which he seems to be having trouble giving away, that is what the public would think, that is all that Kate and Gerry did and that is why a phantom predator abducted her. Yes, he is very much on their side!

I have seen a witness statement and sum up from Det Sup Prior about the smell in the hire car which is freely acknowledged and attributed to smelly nappies that were bagged up for the tip. Someone commented on 3 As if you had actually smelt a dead body as opposed to dirty nappies you would never forget that smell. In fact I know from my ex husband (who was a police officer) you would not be able to drive in the vehicle because you would be heaving!

I think I recall Gordon Brown saying something about the British public were not ready for the truth of this case. To me it is far more serious than "accidental death" and not a case the police would be prepared to leave alone. It seems to me there is a feeling Maddie may be alive and they would obviously desperately want to rescue her from what she may be suffering. I am afraid this really does happen to children and huge amounts of money and very important people can be involved.
It is also the case that unravels such complex criminality and trying to get all the evidence together can take literally years, but Maddie is the priority, quite obviously. If they can work on Gerry to find her that would be the greatest result!

viv said...

Hiya Claudia !!

Great to see you. If you have some which are particularly hilarious I do hope you share a few on here because I continue to love a belly aching good laugh and the Pros are good for that!


xxxx

viv said...

Nancy hello!!

I was missing you and then seem not to have been around when you called! I am just going to look at your posts and will answer, just going to get a cuppa !

xx

viv said...

Hiya again Nancy

Well I agree it was a bit of a sick joke them going to Brussels as the Champions of Amber Alert. But there again, they are leaving no stone unturned in their bid to convince the public they are model parents! Strange really given how they like to play on their own, apparent, child neglect to perpetuate this evil predator who had been stalking them, passing through a closed shutter, jemmying it in fact, but not leaving a trace of said jemmying! It is pretty funny in a way! But very much a black comedy given this is their explanation of how their little girl just disappeared.

I am not sure about your comment, busy waiters would not know when they are checking because the waiter is very clear that late on that evening, there were no other tables for him to wait on and both OB and the father of the child were missing for a long time! He specifically recalled going to re-cook OB's ruined meal, gosh he must have been starving, because before he got it, in rushed Kate, they have taken her. It was almost like a time reaction of fireworks going off! OB and Gerry sit back down, Kate gets up...(!)

I agree the previous nights there was not this hive of activitiy going off to check their kids, in fact it would seem they actually got babysat from the evidence of Rachel who of course said she did not hear her crying that night. I think there was a hive of activity that night for a specific reason. They had abused Maddie long enough and now it was time to get rid of her. She was approaching four and clearly getting too smart, she could not be allowed to start school and start telling nosy teachers what a lovely family she had.

Someone hiding in the flat whilst Gerry was checking, waited for him to go stand right outside then went sneaking out with Maddie, well I'll be!!

viv said...

Rosie is back to writing full scale essays about me if anyone is interested, Bennett figures too as he has done quite a lot lately, I just cannot think why. "Her" ??? research skills and command of the English language are quite extraordinary:-)))

See 13.09 which is particularly amusing to me, after thousands of posts where she describes in detail all of the mental health conditions I am so sadly afflicted with she concludes "Viv is not mad, she is just bad". Well done Dr Rosie, I am very bad for people like you, no doubt about that:-))))

http://justice4mccannfam.blogspot.com/2008/12/so-goncalo-amaral-hass-supposed-to-have.html?commentPage=3

viv said...

There are some very good posts on 3 As Weary, Cushty, Blacksmith, here are a few of what I think are the best:


Weary
Post subject: Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK I
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:33 pm
Local Lag

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:34 pm
Posts: 766
How on earth are they going to "cash in on brand McCann"?

They were hot to have a film made, have documentaries made, and write a book, and all of this was supposed to happen post-arguido, but there's been nothing, and there's no hint that there ever WILL be anything. Post-arguido, when the files were released, they learned that their version of events would be likely to be checked and cross-checked, and suddenly they clammed up and have stayed that way, but for Gerry's little blither on Portuguese TV, which was probably inadvertent (but even then, Gerry didn't appeal for money).

They wanted to make as much money as possible out of the Madeleine story, but they've signed no deals for movies, documentaries, books, or even serialized newspaper articles--and if such deals are made, they're not secret; media types like to get a lot of buzz going in advance of a product's appearance. They assumed that Oprah and other American talk show hosts would want to talk to them, but that never got off the ground, too. "Hello!" was going to feature them for a full year, but that never happened either. So much for a media blitz.

Gerry had grandiose ideas about public interest in Madeleine and her parents lasting more or less indefinitely, but the public is no longer so generally sympathetic or credulous and apparently publishers and producers didn't buy the pitches Clarence lobbed at them. (The one documentary firm they mentioned as being in contact with told the press that they'd never made contact, after all, and I'd tend to believe the documentary makers.) No "Madeleine Day" concert is planned, no one would front their Christmas appeal, and the McCanns have indicated that they plan to scale down their public profiles. Who is it outside of a few obsessives like us, exactly, who would be interested in this case when most people have compassion fatigue and have moved on to other, more recent news stories? If they had been able to cash in, they would have done so long ago.

viv said...

Weary wrote:
Their often flat, affectless emotional responses and attention-seeking is certainly unusual amongst such parents; never addressing their child on camera and saying things like "Mummy and Daddy love you and miss you" is odd too. Ignoring the advice of law enforcement officials (by featuring Maddie's unusual eye, for instance) is virtually unheard of, as far as I can tell. Normally, parents do everything whatsoever that law enforcement officials ask them to do, perhaps because the parents figure they know something about finding missing children, perhaps because they're so shell-shocked that they'll go along with experts without much thought.

They don't insult the law enforcement officers who tried to help them. They don't look so great, most parents. They don't go on with their routines of running, tennis, and so on. They are very anxious to keep their remaining children close at hand and are downright paranoid about harm coming to them. They don't imagine that their child is well and happy--of course they hope that, but they're pretty aware that horrible things might be happening to their child, things that keep them awake at night. They don't reach out to media--they're too stunned to unless the police tell them to. They don't start funds after a few days, because they need to believe their child will be returned soon, the next day, the next minute. They don't have spokesmen; if someone has to speak for them, it's an investigating officer.

I think that's probably different from Lindy Chamberlain (I hope I've got the name right)--her child was abducted and her affectlessness led people to think she had killed it, but she didn't do all the things I've mentioned, I believe. The McCanns are beyond strange.


But apparently, behind the scenes, they weren't like that. Eye witnesses said they were completely distraught. Could their unusual demeanour be put down to the fact that they were doctors, used to dealing with terrible situations and making life or death decisions really quickly? I'm just asking.
:-?


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Weary
Post subject: Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK I
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:09 pm
Local Lag

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:34 pm
Posts: 766
Well, that might explain their preternatural calm, though I suspect that when your child goes missing, you're parent first, doctor a long ways behind that. But all the other unusual behavior? Would all doctors do all of these things?


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Whatever
Post subject: Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK I
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:13 pm
Mafia Boss
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Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:39 pm
Posts: 2848
Location: London
I really don't think that Kate was used to making life and death decisions (wasn't she a very part time GP?) nor Gerry (doesn't he work in cardiac research?). Nah. Fake in front of cameras, fake behind the scenes too, I reckon.


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blacksmith
Post subject: Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK I
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:50 pm
Local Lag

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:29 pm
Posts: 793
"Ignoring the advice of law enforcement officials (by featuring Maddie's unusual eye, for instance) is virtually unheard of, as far as I can tell."

And the rest.Hello. Nice post. And yours, whatever.

Being as I confessed to accepting here that the abduction theory is at least possible I got to thinking, well, the parents behaviour has on the whole made pretty good sense if they had something to hide, and they haven't done badly.

But if they were the parents of an abducted child does their behaviour make any sense at all?????


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cushty
Post subject: Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK I
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:58 pm
Lifer

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm
Posts: 6722
Location: Taffyland
all the sense in the world, Blacksmith, if they knew who had her, and why

and were anxious that the world at large, and the LP and PJ in particular, did not find out

that would also explain Metodo3, who might have been taken on to look for the abductor on the QT


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blacksmith
Post subject: Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK I
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:13 am
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Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:29 pm
Posts: 793
"all the sense in the world, Blacksmith, if they knew who had her, and why and were anxious that the world at large, and the LP and PJ in particular, did not find out

that would also explain Metodo3, who might have been taken on to look for the abductor on the QT."

Hello. Er -deep breath, since I've never looked at that route. But I mean abduction in the sense that it is understood by the pros etc.

It certainly makes less sense to me, starting with weary's point quoted above, although I accept that some sort of case could be made that GM's insane and counter-productive hyper-activity was due to a pathological (and therefore understandable) psychological reaction to a loss of his child. But not much of a case, frankly.

viv said...

"all the sense in the world, Blacksmith, if they knew who had her, and why and were anxious that the world at large, and the LP and PJ in particular, did not find out"

Very well said!

viv said...

Fat paedophile controller used by Council to lure kids in, a man who abused and revelled in the torture of children to provide sick images. As we speak of political interference, how on earth did the Forest of Dean pick on him!! Still all they are really concerned about is the tourist trade and how expensive it would be to recall the brochures, how very responsible of them..

BBC news:

A convicted paedophile appeared in a tourist advertising brochure promoting a children's attraction, the Forest of Dean Council has admitted.

David Harper, 66, who was jailed for his offences, appears as the "Fat Controller" station master in an advert for a Thomas the Tank Engine ride.

The picture features in 50,000 copies of the Forest of Dean Tourist Guide.

A spokesman said: "It was a mistake and we hold our hands up. We have ordered all of the images to be destroyed."

Harper was sent to prison for eight years in 2007 after sexually abusing two boys aged 10 and 12 and placing 25,000 child porn images on his computer.

It is the character of the Fat Controller not the individual which is promoting the attraction
Steve Kendal, Forest of Dean Council

The council, which has ruled out recalling the brochures, has sent many across Britain at a cost of £25,000.

Steve Kendal of the Forest of Dean Council said: "In terms of a recall, we discussed it, but it is horrendously expensive and will have huge implications for our tourist trade for the coming year.

"We in no way condone what that individual did but it is important to note that he was not captioned or named in the picture and it is the character of the Fat Controller not the individual which is promoting the attraction.

"The booklet is intended to attract people from outside the area, so it is unlikely that those not living here will be aware of this man's background."

Harper, of Monmouth, south Wales, admitted gross indecency with each of the two boys, 11 offences of making indecent images of children and one of distributing an indecent image, at Gloucester Crown Court in 2007.

viv said...

Updated and improved the thread at the top guys, particularly re the Court Order which attracted a fierce and protracted argument with me from "Mice and Men" on the 3 Arguidos, you know I think she must be a Pro McCann:-))) She seems to be very close to Tony and wanting to defend him too, maybe she is his chairman who writes all those letters, she got upset when I pointed out that could get her the blame!

Ah well, new strategies have to be developed and tis fun watching that happening!

xx

viv said...

I have done this search:

facial tics abused children

re the taxi driver talking about Maddie's chin twitching and read some very upsetting things about abused children suffering from anxiety and exhibiting these symptoms, also skin rashes (wrist) tennis balls pic which got a lot of defensive abuse from Rosie et al when we have tried to discuss this before. I am sure this person knows!

Niki said...

Good Morning Viv and All:-)

I'm totaly lost at 3A. Too many treads and posters! Today I read this though, which is exactly how I feel about the case!
---------------

Weary wrote:

Post subject: Re: is the problem that they accidentally killedPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:36 am

Local Lag

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:34 pm
Posts: 768 KatzenWaffe wrote:
Whatever happened initially I think the Mcs have been borne along by a process that they started but which is now completely outside their control.They are like swimmers caught in a tide rip, they just have to go with the flow and hope the current ends of its own accord eventually.


I agree, and by this time they're not waving, they're drowning. I think that they are responsible for her death, and I think they--or more particularly Gerry--got it in his head that they would look really, really innocent if they were such concerned parents that they called the media in order to spread word that she'd been taken; that would make them look like they were searching for her energetically and enlisting other people to do so, too. I think one of his most lamebrain schemes was to start asking for money for a fund to find her; I'm guessing Gerry thought that would make it clear they were really, really committed to finding her and would be able to do so more thoroughly if they had more money. To me, at least, that looked like parents acknowledging that it was going to be a long time (and perhaps a cold day in h*ll) before they found her--and in fact that it wouldn't ever happen. The tiffs with the PJ were supposed to indicate that the McCanns (experts in everything) are so much more devoted to finding Madeleine that they know how to find a missing child better than law enforcement agents would.

I think a lot of their behavior is the result of Gerry's crass inability to imagine how people who had REALLY lost a child act, and so he did a bunch of things he believed would make the McCanns look like really good parents. But I genuinely don't think Gerry thinks in the same way most people think. I don't think he's autistic, but he lacks empathy for Madleine and he seems completely unable to judge what other people are likely to think about his behavior. So he and Kate smile and laugh at church a few days later, they grin like apes with that awful t-shirt, he's abrupt and arrogant, and the "friends" he traveled with turn out not to like him very much at all. He's socially inept and clueless. That's fine if you're an arrogant doctor and you live to push nurses around and convey your incredible superiority to other beings; it's not pleasant, but no one is likely to call him on it. He brought the same arrogant swagger and a spoiled child's sense of absolute entitlement into the larger world, and it's only proved to be unflattering and contemptible. What a surprise it must be to go from being the object of journalists' attention, courted and approved of, to realizing that people don't really like you after all, and they see you as a lying, arrogant jerk. Having that painful realization might be part of the punishment Gerry deserves to undergo for assuming he could leave toddlers alone, at the very least.

-
------


Have to get out and rescue some olives!! The storm that was over Spain and Italy is heading this way!
Have a nice day:-)

viv said...

Hiya Niki

I have just had a look at Rosie's blog and cannot get over how intensely sick these comments are, apparently, we are "intensely harming the search" and "forcing her to stay captive far longer than she need be". Did Maddie ever need to be a captive, it is almost like Satan himself wrote this! and we are back to "when she comes home again" How on earth can this person believe Maddie is just going to pop off back home to Kate and Gerry, quite fit and well, this stuff absolutely appals me! Even if she were found, there is no chance of her being sent back to the parents from hell!


All this in the name of this poor child? Perhaps it is time they concentrated on actually trying to do something to help Madeleine, instead of intensely harming the search for this dear child.

When Madeleine is found and returned home, later when she has reached the age she can read and understand the comments levelled at her poor parents and she realises that because of these people like Amaral, Bennett et al, she was forced to stay captive for far longer than need me, do these people honestly think that Madeleine would thank them?

viv said...

Well have fun rescuing the olives!

I really enjoy Weary's posts and it is another really good one!

xx

nancy said...

Good morning everyone - nice day here today and the sun is shining! You could be right about the spring arriving Dylan.

Viv -

Excellent thread today thanks!

I hadn't realised that the tapas bar was not busy at the time all this was happening. I know by the tapas bars in Spain that they are usually rushed off their feet.

I just don't have any faith at all in the statements of any of them - as you say they got together and quickly got some timetable going, and that's why they were all so nervous in their interviews - stuttering and emming and erring like a lot of school children caught out nicking stuff from the local supermarket!

I think the reported sighting of the Irish family is very credible, otherwise they wouldn't have been so emphatic at repeating it over and over. The problem is of course proving it. The same with the taxi driver's account - I just wish these stories had been given more importance by the police at the time, (if it had been down to GA, I'm sure they would have been) but they must be on file and hopefully one day everything will fall into place and the McCanns (and the tapas pals) will have a great deal to answer for.

If Gerry did actually abduct Maddie and carry her off, then it makes sense that she was still alive, otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't have taken the chance of carrying a dead child in his arms and risk a policeman or anyone stopping him. If Maddie was alive he could say he was taking her to a hospital or something because she was ill, but if she had died, then he would have been arrested and it would have all come out.

They must all be quaking in their shoes as time passes and the silence must be deafening for them.

Still no sign of Kate going back to Portugal yet then? Just why would they go back separately? It can't be because of not wanting to leave the twins alone - that's never been a problem before has it?


Nx

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

Niki,

Thanks for posting the post by Weary. An excellent post! Especially this part '(experts in everything)' this also applies to their trained chimps.


Well I am still sticking with my original thoughts even after reading this thought provoking thread. Although I did mention many a time on the DE and on this blog I am sure I have mentioned that, IF this little girl was found I do not believe that she would just be returned to the UK and handed back to her family to pick up where they all left off with an ending to the fairytale! Shannon Matthews and Emergency Care Order spring to mind with regard to UK law. Now I thought the WoC might have been put in place should the missing child turned up in PT or elsewhere. Does the WoC legally mean the child has to be returned to the UK wherever she is found? Would PT have to return the missing child to the UK if there was no WoC? Would she be cared for medically and psychologically by PT? Would she then be placed in the PT childcare system? If she were found in another country, would she be returned to PT the place where she disappeared? The place where the investigation can be re-opened at any time due the fact the case has been archived not closed! Would Portugal place her under an Emergency Care Order!

Zodiac said...

Quote of the Day on Joana Morais Blog:

'According to you, what happened on May 3, 2007?

Madeleine McCann died from accidentally falling behind the sofa in the living room of the apartment. That couch had been moved when the alarm over the alleged disappearance was raised. I think that someone discovered the body, concealed it, cleaned everything up and pushed the sofa to the window.'

Gonçalo Amaral, to Metro, on 11.09.2008

G A's conclusions support my thoughts hence no mind changing from me.

Off out now BBL.

Cláudia said...

Zodiac, my thoughts and words exactly. And these will only change if Madeleine is found alive, which sadly I think will never happen.
Lunch is waiting to be made and then lots of things to do, including a bloody translation of a cv with 35 pages!!!

Cláudia said...

P.S: and the funniest errand I have to run today: going to the bank and telling them someone made a mistake and deposited 2500 Euros to my account! LOL

nancy said...

Claudia -

That must have been me - send it back!!!


Nx

Zodiac said...

Hi Claudia,

I also wonder if the WoC would be used if the child’s body were found? If a body was found in Portugal or in another country and the Portuguese authorities contacted I do hope that the UK does not carry out any autopsy or other tests. I cannot help thinking the WoC is to protect the parents and not the child (as everything else in this sorry saga appears to be) in this case i.e.: if the child is found alive or dead no publicity unless it is the publicity that the parents control!

Zodiac said...

Hey Nancy you beat me to it. It is actually err umm ye know my 2500 Euro's! They were put in an overseas account and I cannot remember if it was myself or my husband who put them in the account oh maybe we took them err um ye know out of the overseas account well anyway Claudia they are definitely my Euro's so send them back.

Zodiac said...

BBFN
BBL

nancy said...

HI Zodiac -

Bearing in mind the marble floors in the flat, that is highly possible, especially if the back of the settee was high and Maddie climbed up it or something.

I still go for the overdose myself, otherwise just why did Kate test to see if the twins were breathing.

And of course there is always the possibility of stuff being planted to make things look the way they wanted, and I'm not talking PJ's here either!

So many theories, but none substantiated without a shadow of a doubt unfortunately, except the fact that the all went out leaving their children to their fate and poor Maddie paid for their stupidity and callousness.

What I can't get my head round is the speed of which everything slotted into place without a hitch immediately after Maddie was pronounced 'abducted'! Talk about instant planning with everything worked out like an army exercise!

Most parents would have been inconsolable and unable to function for days after what happened to Madeleine, but they just picked themselves up, got on with their tennis, jogging etc, as if it was the most natural thing in the world!

nancy said...

Zodiac -

We'll go half and half - can't be fairer than that!

Zodiac said...

Nancy 13.22pm I agree. Although regarding the half and half I do not agree the money is mine cos I say so and I don't want to share so there!

nancy said...

Zodiac -

Good questions about WOC, and I think we'll leave VIV to answer those.

I would have thought though that should Madeleine hopefully be found, either alive or not as the case may be, she would be returned to the UK, because she is a UK citizen and would be under it's jurisdiction, but I'm not 100% sure about this.

nancy said...

Zodiac -

I give in then, but you can send me a little bit in a brown envelope can't you?

Zodiac said...

'she would be returned to the UK, because she is a UK citizen and would be under it's jurisdiction, but I'm not 100% sure about this.'

Nancy,

That is why I wonder if that is the reason for the WoC. I remember reading something along the lines that the twins could have been taken in to care in PT and not handed back.

Zodiac said...

'I give in then, but you can send me a little bit in a brown envelope can't you?'

Nancy if there is any leftover after I have bought what I want to buy I will certainly do that. Just don't hold your breath waiting!

Cláudia said...

Hi, Nancy and Zodiac!
Today is not your lucky day. It wasn't a mistake after all. It was my money! I had made a loan to a family member and that family member was supposed to give the money back only around June. Things got better and my family member gave it back now. I didn't even think that could be the reason. :-)
Back to translating!

If Madeleine's body was found here I assume the investigation would have to continue here.

hope4truth said...

Oh dear god what a thick bitch the person who wrote the below is (was it RP?)

"When Madeleine is found and returned home, later when she has reached the age she can read and understand the comments levelled at her poor parents and she realises that because of these people like Amaral, Bennett et al, she was forced to stay captive for far longer than need me, do these people honestly think that Madeleine would thank them?"

My Take on the above..

If Madeleine is found I dont think she will ever think about her poor parents because she will have been through hell. If Madeleine is found and she learns she was taken because her Evil Parents could not be bothered to stay in an look after her and for good measure left the door unlocked I think she may blame them for the hell she had to endure.

If Madeleine reads about how they never bothered to search for her and her bitch of a Mother did not think she was even worth answering a few questions for she may get very upset.

If Madeleine learns that Mummy and Daddy got out of going back to do a reconstruction because their idiot friends refused she may well want to scream at them "Why did you not make them go?"

If Madeleine see's the pictures of her parents having a great time on her 4th Birthday I think it may break her little heart..

And god forbid this little girl should ever read the cold hearted blogs about just how well the 4 of them were doing without her it may just finish her off...

Madeleine McCann is either Dead and had her body dumped somewhere by parents who dont give a damn. Abducted by a chancer who should burn in hell because the bar was more important than she was. Or taken by her Father to god knows where so they could get on with life without her...

Madeleine is still missing because 9 Adults who were with her on holiday who neglected their children each and every night lied and kept changing their storys and not a single one of them thought enough of Madeleine to go back and try and help...

May the bloody lot of them never sleep again because if Madeleine is with the Peadophile Ring Gerry wants us to belive she is with then that poor child is suffering more than any of us can ever imagine...

Cláudia said...

If a miracle happened, then madeleine would be especially impressed by these:

40 Is it true that at certain times you were desperate over your children’s attitude and that left you were upset?

41 Is it true that in England you considered the possibility of handing over Madeleine’s guardianship to a relative?

43 Within the process, you were shown films of cynotechnical inspection of forensic character, where the dogs can be seen marking indications of human cadaver odour and equally human blood traces, and only of human origin, as well as all the comments that were made by the responsible expert. After the visualization, and after cadaver odour was signaled in your bedroom next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa that was pushed against the living room window, you said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said?

44 You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of human blood behind the sofa by the detection dog?

45 You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of cadaver odour in the boot of the vehicle that you rented a month after the disappearance?

46 You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of human blood in the boot of the vehicle?

Are you aware of the fact that by not answering these questions you may compromise the investigation, which is trying to find out what happened to your daughter? She said yes, if the investigation thinks so.

hope4truth said...

Claudia

"Are you aware of the fact that by not answering these questions you may compromise the investigation, which is trying to find out what happened to your daughter? She said yes, if the investigation thinks so."

What a bloody cold hearted Bitch!

If Madeline is still alive I hope to god she never reads half they have said or see's any of the pictures of them having a good time without her she has suffered enough...

Wizard said...

Good Evening All,

I've just read the following of Joana Morias and copy below for your information.

Mendes Bota defends Amaral saying he has been a victim of “a campaign of misinformation that has lasted for more than a year and which has sought to discredit him” and he spoke of the “powerful forces which are behind this.”

Mendes Bota's words referred to the closing of the Maddie case and the removal of Gonçalo Amaral from the process.

However, the leader of the PSD Algarve, in an allusion to the candidacy of the former inspector for the municipality of Olhão, said that he noticed that “there has been the expression of public opinion, in the media - particularly commentators – that do not recognize to Dr. Gonçalo Amaral the right to exercise citizenship like any other person”.

“I do not know if the commentators are organized or not, but they converge in a flow called by someone who knows what he is doing and what he intends”, he added.

Asked if the campaign against Gonçalo Amaral extends to the Social Democratic Party, Mendes Bota said that he believes that "there are people from all parties."

In relation to a possible pressure from the British Prime Minister for the name of the former inspector not to be approved as a candidate to the City Hall of Olhão, by the National Policy Committee of the PSD, Bota said he had no idea, since he does not investigate “the activities of the British Prime Minister”.

Mendes Bota defends Amaral saying he has been a victim of “a campaign of misinformation that has lasted for more than a year and which has sought to discredit him” and he spoke of the “powerful forces which are behind this.”

Mendes Bota's words referred to the closing of the Maddie case and the removal of Gonçalo Amaral from the process.

However, the leader of the PSD Algarve, in an allusion to the candidacy of the former inspector for the municipality of Olhão, said that he noticed that “there has been the expression of public opinion, in the media - particularly commentators – that do not recognize to Dr. Gonçalo Amaral the right to exercise citizenship like any other person”.

“I do not know if the commentators are organized or not, but they converge in a flow called by someone who knows what he is doing and what he intends”, he added.

Asked if the campaign against Gonçalo Amaral extends to the Social Democratic Party, Mendes Bota said that he believes that "there are people from all parties."

In relation to a possible pressure from the British Prime Minister for the name of the former inspector not to be approved as a candidate to the City Hall of Olhão, by the National Policy Committee of the PSD, Bota said he had no idea, since he does not investigate “the activities of the British Prime Minister”.

Wizard said...

I’ve just read an interesting note I made sometime ago regarding Jez Wilkins- unfortunately I didn’t keep a note of the source.

Anyway JW says he and Gerry spoke for about 3 minutes. Which I think is less than was thought.

He also says it was quite common to see people walking around with their children wrapped in a blanket as they were supplied by the night crèche to cover sleeping children when picked up by their parents. It would be interesting to know how many children where at the night crèche on 3rd May and what time they left as this could account for bundleman and the Smith’s sighting. Remember there were 10 girls of MBM's age at the creche and they all looked very similar.

Di said...

Hi All

Hope.. your 17.36pm post

Smiley claps well said.

Wizard

Very interesting. Surely this would be mentioned in the files if the creche provided blankets.

Di said...

Wizard

I would agree that Amaral has been a victim in this case. Why? I am just not sure. Could it be because he was too near the truth?

Di said...

Dyl & All

I have been to the supermarket today, my pet hate as well.

I had only been in there for about 10 mins when there was an announcement.

Due to health & safety could parents please stop children touching the fruit and veg. Please also keep children in check, it is very dangerous to let them run up and down the isles. Finally could all young children please sit in the trolly seat provided and not ride inside the trolly or stand elsewhere on the trolly.

Again this is for health and safety purposes.

It was not long before I realised I had met the family from hell. Believe me the girl making the announcement was being very polite.

What is the problem with some parents these days, they just seem to be oblivious to their children.

viv said...

Hiya guys

Only just arrived but one quick observation, if RP wants to stop this blog by calling you a load of dummies controlled by me, then she got that one wrong!

We don't need to "control" anyone on here because only decent people are allowed in, that is what really upsets them!

I can leave this blog for two weeks at a time as I have and it is the same lovely place, looking for the truth and fairly analysing what happened, above all being concerned for Madeleine, not her wicked parents!


xx

viv said...

Hi Wizard

I am sure the PJ checked out any other parents carrying children in that manner and at that time and clearly none have come forward, or none that we have heard about. The other major problem with that suggestion, The Smiths saw someone who they believe is Gerry away from the resort and heading down to the beach, if any parent was doing that with their sleeping child it should ring some alarm bells!!!

viv said...

Di, I do recall one British couple in Egypt allowing their children to have a really good touch of the food on the buffet and then put it back etc. As you say further examples of some pretty grotty parents who cannot teach their children to behave properly, in fact they could not care less!

xx

viv said...

Hiya Hope and Claudia

The question that really stands out for me that Kate refused to answer is
were you thinking of transferring custody of Maddie, it is the implication behind that, that is very sinister in terms of her just disappearing. This is the question she really should have answered and I have said before in complete fury if it were not true! It was clearly highly relevant to Maddie's disappearance and clearly confirmed Kate had not intention whatsoever of co-operating or indeed confirming that contrary to what she tried to claim, she had not bonded at all well with little Maddie. The McCanns cannot turn the clocks back, they laughed on her birthday just a few days after she went missing, even outside a church. Turning it into some fun fundraising event. I have often commented the shocked look on many Portuguese faces demonstrate what normal people think about this. As Weary says they just never understood how the public would react because they have an outlook that is so lacking in empathy and concern for their own little girl. They behave like this and then they need a spin merchant to try and change what people have already clearly seen. A couple who just wanted to continue their holiday and make loads of money whilst they were at it.

viv said...

Very good post above Hope, I just picked out one bit:

"If Madeleine see's the pictures of her parents having a great time on her 4th Birthday I think it may break her little heart.."

I think those were the sentiments about how little Shannon may be feeling, to know she has a mum who was supposed to love her and want her, just like little Shannon quite naturally loved and wanted her mummy, but look what she did!

That is a terrible thing for any child to try and come to terms with. Parents who just do not care, in fact they just want to use you to make a load of money. Absolutely terrible!

Poor children

xxx

Di said...

Hi Viv

You would understand better than any of us.

How would the PJ know that K & G were thinking of transferring custody of Maddie.

Where would this information have come from. Would it be from authorities in the UK or family and friends?

viv said...

Hiya Zodiac,

If Maddie were found dead or alive she would be returned to the UK and the case dealt with here because she is a British Citizen. However, I am sure the Portuguese would still be co-operating with us and investigating from their end.

She is a Ward of the British Court and Mrs Justice Hogg would have to determine who in the future would be responsible for her care, but I would expect a very similar outcome to the Shannon case.

xx

Di said...

Off now but will try to look back in later.

viv said...

Di

You are not be sarcy with me are, well you would know better Viv:-))))

Clearly the question did not come out of thin air, as you say it was either from SSD, friends or relatives but it clearly must have come from a reliable source or sources. It is a highly relevant question and leads to would Kate actively do anything to stop the removal of a child she did not really want anyway. Nevertheless when it actually happened, I think she was gutted!

xx

viv said...

Of course Di the question could also lead to, would you kill Maddie!


xx

hope4truth said...

Hi Viv

RP can call me what she wants to just because they dont belive that Madeleine is a victim and Kate and Gerry dont have to do anything for her...

Let's face it they see the same things as we do and whilst we can all look at the police or pj and say if they had done this or that (which may have caught WHOEVER took Madeleine a lot quicker)....

They also bleat on about Madeleine and what she would feel about her Poor Parents once again making them out to be the victims and Madleine the person who would worry about them???

Well the can see what their heros have done not searching for her at all which is just not right.

They could not have possibly have known that she had been taken in saying it and not searching they made their first mistake and in all crimes mistakes come back to haunt you...

Kates refusal to answer questions that may have helped find Madeline with her only answer to the question...

"Are you aware of the fact that by not answering these questions you may compromise the investigation, which is trying to find out what happened to your daughter? She said yes, if the investigation thinks so."

What kind of Mother could say such a hearless thing in the investigation of her childs disapearence....

SO the Pros can bang on about how stupid evil and hapless I am but I dont speak on anyones behalf.. I do belive though that if a 3 year old child is missing and her parents can look so very happy on what would have been her Birthday something is very wrong and Madeleine deserves the truth she was worth that at least.

viv said...

Nancy now that is the thing:

"What I can't get my head round is the speed of which everything slotted into place without a hitch immediately after Maddie was pronounced 'abducted'! Talk about instant planning with everything worked out like an army exercise!"

Why they even had some handy photos of Maddie with them to hand to the police, all done up in her nice football outfit which then raised a huge sum of cash. You know I have always felt this was planned and deliberate. Gerry: "I have not come here to enjoy myself" Well quite!

viv said...

Hiya Hope

yes they see the same things as we do but they spin and lie about them, that is sick and perverted and so are the things they say about people who just point out what the McCanns have done.

People have long memories!


xx

hope4truth said...

Viv

I think they were shocked when the normal and trusting public kicked off about the use of the fund for Mortgage payments. That was the first time I think that they realised that people were not thinking about them with the fund but were praying it would bring Madeleine home (as most of us would sell our home if we thought it would find our child)...

xxx

Zodiac said...

Thanks Viv.


Di,

My pet hate in the supermarket is seeing children sitting in a trolley eating a bag of grapes. Firstly it is stealing and secondly it is disgusting to see children eating unwashed fruit! Yuk! Read you all tomorrow.

hope4truth said...

Zodiac

My pet hate in supermarkets is having to be in one!!!!!!

xxx

viv said...

As the PJ brought in a specialist to investigate kindapping and paedophilia I wonder if Clarence Mitchell was once again putting the best gloss on things and saying the McCanns were pleased about that, I very much doubt it! Kate must have got the message loud and clear when he never answered her!

MY PROFILE SHOP JOBS PROPERTY CLASSIFIEDS

From The Times
October 11, 2007
Madeleine McCann police return to kidnap theory
David Brown

Detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are still considering whether she was kidnapped, the detective leading the inquiry indicated last night.

Paulo Rebelo, one of Portugal’s most senior detectives, was speaking after 80 suspected paedophiles were arrested in the country’s biggest-ever child exploitation operation.

Portuguese detectives were last night beginning to sift through the tens of thousands of files found on the 150 computers seized during the raids.

The new impetus will be welcomed by Kate and Gerry McCann, who have been official suspects for more than a month. They have appealed for officers to resume the search for their daughter.
Madeleine McCann: the key questions

Why are the "Tapas 9" key to solving the Madeleine mystery?
Related Internet Links

* The latest full coverage of Madeleine McCann

Background

* McCanns consider interview bids

* Madeleine McCann: the global reaction

* The forgotten victim in the McCann case

Multimedia

* Pictures: searching for Madeleine

* Video: McCann family start holiday

Related Links

* Detectives ask for British tourists’ DNA

* McCann children 'were not alone in apartment'

* 3D model 'casts doubt on Madeleine abduction'

Multimedia

* Madeleine coverage in full

Last night Mr Rebelo said that “all lines of inquiry remain open”. The Times reported yesterday that British police had been asked to take DNA samples and fingerprints from all holidaymakers at the resort where Madeleine disappeared after Portuguese detectives found evidence of a possible kidnapper.

German and Dutch police are also believed to have been asked to trace and interview guests who were staying at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz on May 3.

On Tuesday a team of Portuguese detectives visited the ground-floor apartment where the McCanns stayed to take measurements for a detailed reconstruction of events. They were said to have been particularly interested in the small service area beneath the apartment.

The apartment has not been occupied since the beginning of August after a British sniffer dog reportedly signalled that it might have discovered traces of a corpse.

Senior officers suspect that Mr and Mrs McCann were involved in Madeleine’s disappearance, but a Portuguese judge has told them that there is not enough evidence to demand that they return to the Algarve for further questioning.

A source close to the investigation told The Times: “One of the things they want to do is clarify all the problems so if they want to advance on the McCanns there will be no unanswered questions. They are certain that Madeleine died in the apartment but the question they cannot answer is who took the body and where it went.”

Mr and Mrs McCann said yesterday that they were considering legal action after claims that tests on samples of Madeleine’s hair proved that she had been drugged before she disappeared. The couple, both doctors, said that they had never used sedatives on Madeleine or their two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie.

The newspaper 24 Horas reported that scientific evidence analysed by both Portuguese and British experts suggested that all three children had been drugged. Portuguese detectives investigated the possibility of sedation because Madeleine did not cry out on the night that she vanished and the twins continued to sleep as the search for their sister was carried out.

Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, said: “Gerry and Kate McCann wish to make it categorically clear that they have never, ever, used sedatives on their children.

“Lawyers for the McCanns will be monitoring British coverage of this particular allegation and will not hesitate from taking action at the appropriate stage where necessary.”

The Forensic Science Service has tested dozens of samples recovered from the apartment, a car hired 25 days after Madeleine disappeared and other vehicles and properties at its laboratory in Birmingham.

Mr Rebelo took charge of the investigation on Monday after the previous head was demoted for claiming that British police were being manipulated by the McCanns.

The team is now down to six from the hundred officers assigned to the case when Madeleine first went missing.

nancy said...

Hi Viv -

Gerry may not have set out to enjoy himself, but he certainly looked like he ended up doing just that, by the smiles and laughter on Maddie's 4th birthday.

As for the 'handy' photos, just why would they take photos of Maddie on holiday with them in the first place,unless they had an idea they were going to need them to get their act off the ground! They certainly didn't have time to take photos of the children while they were there because they were too busy getting 'into each other'!

Of course, for the public's favourite one of Maddie in her pink bonnet by the pool, he had to make a trip back to the UK to get that one 'sorted'to his liking.


Nx

viv said...

Oh my goodness I never saw that before,

interested in the small service area beneath the apt

I do remember the bulkiest of Rebelo's men jumping on the decking as if to test its weight and see what was underneath and commented on that at the time, displaying the pictures.

I just think even more so now, people just did not grasp, that yes they were investigating kidnapping and paedophilia, but still investigating Kate and Gerry McCann. Rebelo did not release them from their arguido status until he had quite literally ran out of time. I am even more convinced now having just read this!

xx

viv said...

Well indeed Nancy, like I have always said about Gerry McCann

cold, scheming, psychopathic

this was no spur of the moment accident!

nancy said...

Off to bed now, but just thought I'd let you know that according to the 3A's CM is going to give a speech at the Oxford Union on the 6th March.

Humpty Bumpty said:

"CM addressing the Oxford Union - quite extraordinary!

A man who grew up watching the woodentops on the television became one"!

Someone else said - "they are really scraping the barrel to hire that pink plonker"!!

If any of us live near Oxford, it might be a good idea to go and see the students' reactions!

God Bless.

Nx

viv said...

But Nancy

He has very effectively hidden from the public just what it is the McCanns are actually suspected of and that is far worse than what they would have us believe!

For that he will get credit as an incredible spinner!

But a very sick excuse for a human being

Nite Nite

xx

viv said...

Bum, you are getting a little bit like those people with the Grime report, what an obsessed lady you are:-))))

viv said...

Another great post on 3As, inside the mind of a paedophile:


cherry
Post subject: Re: MAIN MADELEINE THREAD MK I
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:32

The only people who would describe paedophiles as caring and not causing a child any harm
would be paedophiles themselves imo because they do not see themselves as causing harm
to a child, they will say the child wanted it to happen, the child enjoyed it, it does not cause
any harm to the child and it would not cause any lasting effects to a child.


and what does Gerry McCann say in August 2008 and given he stated on the first night Maddie had been abducted by paedophiles and instructed M3 to hunt them down:

It will be clear to everyone now, that there is absolutely no evidence that suggests Madeleine has been seriously harmed," said Mr McCann, in a blog on the Find Madeleine website. "Knowing this, we strongly believe that Madeleine is out there and can be found.


What does he mean by "seriously harmed"? Does he mean there are certain things that may have been happening to her that would not cause her serious harm? Does he think she would be in her right mind for the rest of her life (if she were even still alive) or does not even have the empathy to consider that?

viv said...

Does he keep repeating these utterly crass remarks which are clearly upsetting thousands of people, just to try and deal with the demons in his own head, about what he may have inflicted on his own little girl?

Or does he just not have any demons and unable to even perceive what paedophiles do to children, just unable to perceive that paedophiles cause children "serious harm" emotionally and physically. He never seems able to deal with any sign of emotion from his own wife..he appears to just completely lack the capacity for that, it is an embarassment to him an alien concept he just cannot grasp.

viv said...

Oh My Goodness

Barmy Correia, a "medium" as well as lawyer by trade, (how bizarre) and of course now acting for the delightful Madam Cipriano, it would seem, from the article below translated from French had his suspension lifted but still faces a disciplinary hearing in relation to his actions in both the cases of Maddie McCann and the trial of Goncalo Amaral. His response, well the judge has a "dangerous liaison with Goncalo Amaral". Now if ever I hear a loser's cry, that was it! UK juges hear it all the time from the loser too, especially if they are just a tad nutty, well the judge is bent and he was on their side, it is just not fair, I am going to sue the Judge:-)))))



Marcos Aragão Correia: The Return

12612806b.jpgL 'lawyer Leonor Cipriano, Marcos Aragão Correia, the suspension was established by the Order of Lawyers, lifting, but it will still face a disciplinary trial for his actions in the case of Madeleine McCann, but also in the trial of five inspectors from the Judicial Police.

Equal to itself, the lawyer who is also medium now accuses the presiding judge of the Court of Faro, Henrique Pavão to have a "dangerous liaison" with master António Cabrita, defender of Gonçalo Amaral.

Accusations of Marcos Aragão Correia were made after his expulsion from the courtroom of the tribunal, following his suspension by the Conduct of the Bar Association in Madeira. According to counsel, a complaint against the judge has been filed with the Superior Council of Magistracy.

Marcos and Maddie Case

On 6 May 2007 (3 days after the disappearance of Madeleine) Marcos Aragão Correia, said that so-called sources in the underworld have indicated that Madeleine McCann had been raped and killed and his body was thrown into a dark lake. Pressure to identify his alleged sources, he eventually changed his version of the story and said spiritualist, medium, after having participated in a meeting of spiritualists the night of May 5, the lawyer claims to have had a vision of a child of four years "abducted, raped, then killed and his body thrown into a lake or a dam."

In October 2007, he claims to have sent a letter from the island of Madeira to Rothley, addressed to McCann allegedly containing details, clues and evidence crucial in the case. It also claims to have informed the Judicial Police in Funchal (Madeira).

The same month, he announced that the famous letter never reached the hands of McCann despite the fact that someone would have signed for its receipt.

In November 2007, he decided to sue the Portuguese postal services, the CTT, accusing them of failing to properly delivered the letter to McCann. According to counsel, an official of the postal services would unduly signed receipt of the letter, but his complaint with the court is determined to be unfounded and it is ordered to pay court fees, which amounted to 100 euros.

In press statements, Marcos claims that he only wrote to McCann providing information for lack of response from the PJ indications that allegedly provided to Madeira.

1205425334_0.jpgEn December 2007, the link between lawyers and private detectives in the service of McCann becomes obvious, then it will be more emphasis on its version of the Maddie's body in the waters of the dam 'Arade or it will pay British divers to probe the depths.

Presented by the British media as a good Samaritan, the lawyer says pay 1,250 euros per day spent with the divers, belonging to the Dive Time Lagos, with the money Metodo 3.

If the Good Samaritan has no sense of the ridiculous, but has shown the concept of the value of media and finds a way to alert the British and Portuguese media to be present at key moments in his research: d First, it is clear from the water a harmless piece of rope he would use to get the image of a child committed after they were in black plastic bags containing bones of animals, but going to happen to get the message that it could be the bones of the hand of a child. Finally, after intervention by the PJ, it will prove that it was really the bones of cats.

It grows until Vice claim to be 99% certain that the body of Madeleine will be found in the dam.

Despite the intervention of the Portuguese authorities confirming that the bones were from reaching many kittens, meager reunion Marcos Aragão Correia - at least that's what he said at the press - will be sent to Barcelona or Metodo 3 have specialists ready to carry out. Results that have never been disclosed because, as it became clear there was nothing to say, confirming once again that the only goal of the lawyer was to feed the doubt to the official investigation .

Today, Marcos Aragão continuing his work, he became the lawyer for Leonor Cipriano, even if its main goal is the former coordinator of the investigation into the death and disappearance of Madeleine McCann: Gonçalo Amaral.

viv said...

Sorry Goncalo's lawyer has the dangerous liaison, not Goncalo himself. I expect he was having a telepathic exchange with said Judge across the courtroom.

Meanwhile, Correia continues to earn himself the title of what we in the UK call, "vexatious litigant"!

Being a medium, many of whom have mental health problems and do not live in the world of reality, and being a lawyer, required to stick to the facts really do not sit well together, in fact they are very contradictory roles, but I guess being a medium inspires his understanding of the, ahem, facts in his very own special and gifted way.

Personally I don't like bent lawyers and I hope they throw the book him, including for his sickening comments about what supposedly happened to little Maddie, what a self serving publicity seeker, honing in on a serious case and demonstrating not a bit of sensitivity or concern.

Maybe the disciplinary hearing will make findings he has failed to act with frankness and good faith towards his clients (and employers??), supplied an inadequate professional service and brought the profession into disrepute by his bizarre claims and conduct including in the face of a court.

Strange how the Maddie case attracts them both sides of the pond and maybe all roads lead back to her parents and the strange people they choose to employ to discredit others with some highly disreputable people! Not a wise policy choice..

xx

viv said...

WITNESS STATEMENT OF A SMITH, MARTIN SMITH'S DAUGHTER ADDED AT THE TOP OF THIS THREAD

viv said...

There is one more statement on there which I am looking for but from looking at these two that child just must have been Maddie. It also sounds just like Gerry. They say the child just looked like she was sleeping quite naturally on her father, in flimsy pjs and nothing else.

I just have to ask myself one question, how on earth could this be an abductor? How could he have taken Maddie from her bed, not woken her up, and then brazenly walked through the streets with her? I believe that all three children were drugged that night and this was Gerry removing Maddie down to the beach. There are a number of witnesses, more to come in fact and they all corroborate each other and clearly describe a child just like Maddie.

viv said...

Given this so obviously was the "abductor" taking Maddie why does Rosie not want to comment on this, that says it all for me!

What are the odds of this not being her?

They see her about 10 OB sits back down at the table at 9.55, Kate goes and makes her discovery, it is just like clockwork, which is exactly what I would expect for someone like Gerry McCann.

Jane Tanner I recall was wanting to be very vague about the timing of the discovery, I wonder if it was after 10 pm? I think I have heard mention of 10.15.

viv said...

Did Diane Webster notice all these funny goings on and just sit there at the table thinking I just cannot stand this...

viv said...

If Maddie has been injured and had died there is no way he would have just walked through the streets with her like that, just no way, she MUST have been alive. I believe it is clear the twins were sedated, Gerry even suggested it himself, and I believe Maddie was too, so she could be taken from her bed by her own blasted father!

viv said...

BBL, I think we need to look at that statement of the waiter and also the log of telephone calls Gerry and OB sent received that night which I think is on 3 As.

The waiter will give the best evidence of what was going on but on memory he says both OB and the child's father were missing for a long time. I think this is why OB was not on the steps of the High Court or on Panorama!

xx

viv said...

If she had died that night as the result of an overdose and either Gerry or OB discovered that, how could he have arranged a boat to come and take her away so quickly? He just could not have done that and I am quite sure he would not have hidden her body on the beach because it would be such an obvious place to look for her, from the timing there is not time to have hidden her body either.

Di said...

Hi Viv

Sarcy, moi ;o))

I had never heard of the interest in the small service area below apt 5A either.

Reading A Smiths statement she does seem to be giving a description of Gerry & Madeleine, I wonder why she does not mention that they tried to speak to him.
Was this statement taken after the Smiths were supposedly got at?

Off out with the dog. I will look in later.

nancy said...

Good morning Viv and all.

Thanks for all the interesting posts Viv and just to say that if an abductor (and it's a big if) managed to get Maddie out of her bed he would almost certainly have had a car waiting.

As you said, who would carry a child through the streets at that time of night, in flimsy attire and when she could easily wake up and scream her head off! It just isn't plausible is it.

I was reading the quote by George Galloway you put up, that the McCanns are either victims of a cataclysmic and historic injustice almost unprecedented, or they have been complicit in a scheme so duplicitous, so evil, etc, that Shakespeare himself could not have written it!

I would say it was the second part that applied to the McCanns. The first part about being a victim of historic injustice definitely applies to Maddie and not them, because at the end of the day she is the victim, and it was her parents who decided to go out on the town and leave her and her siblings unprotected.

Interested to see that the waiter said that O'Brien and Gerry were away from the table for a long time - O'Brien's excuse was that his child had been sick - no clean sheets were asked for and he excused that by saying in his (latest) statement that there was a washing machine. So what did the poor child do while the sheets were being washed and dried then!

And what was Gerry's excuse?

I think that we can take with a heavy pinch of salt the McCanns' and tapas pals' statements of checks on the children. I think they made checks but fewer than they lead us to believe!

Whatever the truth of the whole thing is, the fact is they all left their children and if they had been responsible adults then Maddie would still be with us. Yet they are still being treated as some kind of examples of perfect parents by those I believe don't either want to add to their burden or live in a fool's paradise.

The tapas' lot must have nightmares if they believe Maddie was abducted by a paedophile because it could so easily have been their children. But that's why they are so quick to defend the McCanns of course.

There are so many varying theories as to what happened to Madeleine - those who think she had a fatal accident, i.e a fall, or an overdose which was covered up and her body disposed of; others who think she has been handed over to someone else to bring up because Kate couldn't cope with her and the scam was in place before the start of the holiday. The pros of course maintain that a paedophile took her but never give a clue as to just how he (or they)managed to do that in the short time allowed in between the alleged time checks.

I know this is going over old ground, but I still tend to go for the overdose option, and even though the Eddie and Keela's findings don't seem to be taken as evidence enough to convict, I certainly don't think they should be ignored either.

xx

nancy said...

Viv -


Why would Gerry have carried Madeleine through the streets when he could have used his car to take her somewhere much farther away?

That bit doesn't make sense to me, but then what does in this very complicated case.

I hope that GA's book is published here soon - it seems to be taking forever.

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

Nancy 09.54am well said! I agree.

viv said...

Hiya Nancy yes good post 9.54

Your second one, he did not have a hire car at that stage and if he had hired one that would have looked terribly suspicious!

I think Gerry gives us a clue when he says he had never seen anyone around before that night, he did not mean to that night either. Kate and Fiona give us a big clue by going on about Kate had a dreadful premonition or something and just didnot want to go on that er holiday!

I also tend to believe the taxi driver, it was like a meeting to arrange what was going to take place later and could not be recorded on telephone. The statement seems realistic to me in that not all the bits fit as perfectly as one who concocts. The way he said he went back to check at the hotel but no room had been booked. Often people arrange a meet at place like this but do not go in, it sounds like they just went and got in a car with someone, showing Maddie off. It has an awful ring of that anon email that was sent to the met police, Maddie was eyed up in PDL and then stolen to order, I think she was but not quite in that way. The bit about Maddie's trembling little chin too, she would know this was not right and be fearful and all the adults silent in the car. Even little children sense these things. It seems Payne was on this jaunt and he says he had been to Portugal many times before I think.

When taken with the article above from The Times in October that Rebelo had gone back to the kidnapping theory it all seems highly logical to me and does explain why they want to keep much of the files so confidential! Clearly they are not going to risk any chance of finding her alive.

Di, these statements were taken by the PJ long before the McCann detectives tried to speak with them, they are dated I think around 26 May 2007. Clarence Mitchell stated in the press last year I think that M3 were to speak with them! Long way from Spain to Ireland!!

nancy said...

Hi Viv - and hi Zodiac!

No, of course, they hired the car when they needed to go off on their travels and carry all sorts of 'smelly' stuff around with them.

They must have been looking forward to spending a nice long time in Portugal, jogging, eating tapas, sunbathing etc, parading in front of the world press, because they were going to leave no stone unturned to look for Maddie.

It shows where their priorities lie because as soon as they were made arguidos their promises just flew out of the window. They were frightened like chickens!!

And what about the poor parish priest who has said he will never get over his involvement with the McCanns. What a shame his duty as a Roman Catholic priest prevents him from discussing the confessions they presumably made (being devout catholics of course).

viv said...

Nancy darling now come on, be fair,

they did not just want to have a good time in PDL, they wanted to stay on to "control the investigation" to quote Gerry's exact words, what an odd thing for a suspect to want to do eh!

I am sure it was an absolutely agonising decision for them to bomb off in a private jet and leave their precious Sean and Amelie, for a really good photoshoot with the Pope and to see their ever so helpful friends in Amsterdam, they must have had such important details to discuss!

What a shame they had such a traumatic time on German TV and poor Gerry got a bashing on US TV as well, when he was putting in hand his wonderful plans to be an ambassador, a king of hearts in fact, for children, for Amber Alert!

You know with this monumental fund and having to rush off an trademark Maddie's image, and being such a compassionate ambassador for children, he is just like the late Goddess of Wales really isn't he:-)))

viv said...

Nancy, tut, erm, tut, "devout catholics"?


You would not mock the devout Childrens' Ambassadors, now would you?

Shame on you lady, you will upset Psychopops:-))))

hope4truth said...

Hi

I rally dont know what went on in PDL but the thought that any of it could have been pre planned has made me feel very sad...

I cant believe any parent would be evil enough to go through with such a plan let alone have friends in on it with them?

The only thing that would make sense for a huge cover up is death or giving away your child...

To pre plan either is a depressing thought and Doc's own version of what was going on and the evidence of Dr's who had doubts about Gerry and DP are the only thing I cant think that they would need to cover up???

The words (I think someone posted on here but I have been reading a lot today and cant remeber) Gerry uses (no reason to belive she has come to any harm) whilst he is talking about her being with a peadophile ring have made me think if he feels this way maybe he thinks children would not come to any harm as it is ok to do this? I hope that is not what he means...

I also hope that if she was not taken (and I dont belive she was) it was an accident and the worse they have done is cover it up start a fund wasted everyones time and lied. That is bad enough and discusting behaviour...

But I dont want to belive they are so evil they planned it all and went with the intention of doing this to their child...

It could have happend this way but I hope to god it diddnt as much as I dont like them for the way they have behaved and put themselves first I still want to belive they (made a mistake is the wrong word) but at least Madeleine was loved???

This is so tragic... Have to go see you all later xxx

viv said...

Hiya Hope, well this report was written in October when the McCanns were prime suspects, there really were so many reports in the press around that time telling us this.. they did not want to endanger Maddie's life. They were clearly not referring to Robert Murat and there have never been any other suspects!

I think there was a big campaign to actually make us believe they had killed her..and we did!


FROM THIS IS LONDON:

'Maddy was abducted and we have a suspect in mind' Last updated at 16:09pm on 29.10.07


Portugese police believe three-year-old Madeleine McCann has been abducted and have a suspect in mind, a police chief said today. The toddler vanished from her bed at a holiday resort when her parents were in a restaurant only 40 yards away.
Guilhermino Encarnacao, director of the judicial police in the Faro region, said they were hopeful she is still alive and believe she is still in Portugal.
But he refused to reveal any more details for fear of endangering Madeleine's life.
Video...
• Footage from the Praia da Luz Mark Warner resort
• Madeleine's parents plead for information about their daughter
scroll down for more

Vanished: Madeleine McCann, three, was asleep next to her twin brother and sister
The three-year-old's great uncle, Brian Kennedy said the family "fear the worst but we are hoping for the best."
British Ambassador John Buck was with Madeleine's family this afternoon. He confirmed that three family liaison officers from Leicestershire Police had now arrived and were with the family.
Kate and her husband Gerry, a consultant cardiologist, have told family and friends they suspect their daughter was snatched while her two-year-old twin brother and sister were sound asleep in cots on either side of her.
Madeleine, who was born by IVF treatment, disappeared from the family's ground-floor holiday apartment at the 'family friendly' Mark Warner holiday complex in the Praia da Luz resort as her parents ate at a tapas restaurant close by.
The child's aunt, Trish Cameron, yesterday described the frantic telephone call she received after the couple discovered their daughter was missing around ten o'clock on Thursday night.
"It was my young brother Gerry distraught on the phone, breaking his heart. He said: 'Madeleine's been abducted, she's been abducted'.
"They kept going back to check the kids every half hour. The restaurant was only 40 yards away. He went back at nine o'clock to check the children. They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut."
Kate then went over to the two-bedroom ground-floor apartment and 'came out screaming', said Mrs Cameron. 'The door was lying open, the window in the bedroom and the shutters had been jemmied open.
"Nothing had been touched in the apartment, no valuables taken, no passports. They think someone must have come in the window and gone out the door with her."
Portuguese police yesterday sealed off the three-storey block and forensic specialists fingerprinted the ground floor window of the McCanns' apartment. All airports, ports and border posts have been alerted.
But despite a massive search throughout the night by police, sniffer dogs and dozens of holidaymakers, there has been no sign of Madeleine, wearing white pyjamas when her parents put her to bed with twins Amelie and Sean in the bougainvillea-clad apartment.
scroll down for more

Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann
Intriguingly, a Briton who runs a company in the Algarve has told police he spotted a couple carrying a young child early yesterday.
George Burke, from Liverpool, was driving home from nearby Lagos around 6am when he caught the two people in his car headlights. "I couldn't see them clearly because it was dark and windy. They scurried down a side road and out of sight."
Last night, as police helicopters and launches scoured the sea, beach and village, Madeleine's family issued a statement which read: "This is a particularly difficult time for the family and we are all comforting each other. At this time all the family's focus is in assisting the UK and in particular the Portuguese authorities in securing Madeleine's safe return."
scroll down for more

A family torn apart: Parents Kate and Gerry McCann with Madeleine and the twins

Ray of light: Madeleine is described as active and chatty
Mr McCann, a consultant cardiologist at Leicester's Glenfield Hospital, and his wife Kate, a GP, had chosen the up-market resort because it was family-friendly.
A friend of the couple, Jill Renwick, said: "This is the first time they have done this. They are very, very anxious parents and very careful."
She said Madeleine - known as Maddy - was 'gorgeous, active and chatty and intelligent, not shy. She is four next week and starts school this year.'
The McCanns, who have been married eight years and recently moved into a £600,000 detached house in Rothley, a suburb of Leicester, were on holiday with a group of fellow doctors and other young children, paying around £1,600 for a week.
In the evenings, Mark Warner offers a drop-in creche service enabling customers to leave young children with staff while they enjoy a relaxing dinner.
Customers may also pay for individual baby-sitters but the McCanns, both 38, chose not to use either service, instead taking it in turns regularly to check their three young children themselves from the restaurant on the other side of a swimming pool from their apartment.
After Mrs McCann raised the alarm, Mark Warner said it immediately launched a search of all areas within the complex and the peaceful, 1,000-population fishing village.
Resort manager John Hill said: "As well as staff, we had guests helping, also the majority of the Praia da Luz village.
"Police were informed at the same time as the alarm was raised. They arrived about 10.45pm and after statements were taken from the family police decided to escalate the situation."
Paul Moyes, 47, from Cheshire, and his wife Susan own a holiday apartment in the same black as the McCanns. He said: "There was a knock on the door at about 11.30 from a hotel guest telling us a girl was missing and asking us to help in the search.
"There were uniformed police, plain clothes and even off-duty local officers. The search went on all night, people were using torches.
"We searched the beach and the hotel grounds with scores of people. Quite a few of us own holiday homes here so it's a close-knit community and something like this is terribly shocking." Michael Hannar, from Pontefract, Yorkshire, owns a ground floor apartment close to the McCanns.
He said: "I don't believe a three-year-old child would have been strong enough to open the window or shutter.
"Mine are difficult to open, especially if the window is fully closed. The shutter is also difficult to open."
Family friend Mrs Renwick said the McCanns - who met while training at the Western Infirmary at Glasgow - felt let down by police.
"I spoke to them this morning and they said the police had done nothing overnight and they felt as if they'd been left on their own."
Resort manager Mr Hill said: "We're in a sleepy fishing village and manpower for the police, I agree, was low at the time. After the CID were involved more police were called."
In Leicester, neighbours spoke of the loving, protective parents.
Tracey Horsefield, a 32-year-old nurse, said: "They never let those children out on their own. I have never seen Madeleine without her parents."
Mr McCann's mother Eileen, 67, from Glasgow, said the couple had been desperate to have children and eventually underwent IVF treatment.
"Madeleine made their lives complete when she came along. The three children were very close and I don't know how they will cope - how any of them will."
Madeleine's uncle Michael Healy said: "There has been some negative spin put on this, with people criticising them for leaving the kids.
"But it's nonsense, they were close by and eating within sight of where the children were and checking on them. No one was rip-roaring drunk."

viv said...

But I dont want to belive they are so evil they planned it all and went with the intention of doing this to their child...


Hope, I may be wrong, it is just looking at all the evidence we have, that is the way it looks to me, but there is clearly a lot we do not know! It may be they have actually given her away to someone who will not cause her any harm but this still seems a very sick thing to do, particuarly with the Fund!

xxx

nancy said...

Hi Viv - Rosiepops! Am I bovvered!!

Now it seems the 'predator' came in through the window and then went out through the door! At least that sounds more feasible than trying to take a child through a window! Is this the door that opens from the inside only? It must be, but how would the predator have known that he could only get in through the window and out through the door? It just makes no sense at all.

Just why did Gerry get on the phone to his sister straight away, as soon as Maddie was known to be missing and say an abductor had taken Madeleine - when any other parent would have assumed the child had opened the door and gone to look for them before worrying the life out of the family back home. Any other father would have been out there scouring the whole area. As I said before, almost like clockwork.

A man, George Burke, said a young couple with a child were hurrying along early on the previous morning, around 6.00am. That seems a very strange time for a couple to be out with a child. I wonder what, if any, credence can be put on his statement!

As for Kate Healy's uncle Michael, saying they could see the apartment from where they were eating and checking all the time, then how come none of the 9 protective adults at the tapas bar saw anyone go in the apartment block! They obviously couldn't see the window or door, so that statement's a lot of nonsense.

Another thing in that report where it says the twins had beds either side of Maddie - if that was the case, why did nobody spot Madeleine wasn't in her bed when they checked. I remember Oldfield saying her bed was not in his sight line. What they want us to believe is Madeleine was taken after all the checks, just before Kate did her check. A coincidence or what?

And, when you think about it, what a chance that predator took, leaving it almost to the end of the evening when they could have been going home to the children and caught him out!

As I said before, unless they were all lying about the regular half hourly checks, there is no way this predator had time to get away with Madeleine.

How confusing it all is, or as my old Mum used to say when I told a fib - "pull the other one, it's got bells on"!!

viv said...

Hiya Hope

Well it does not make any sense does it, but there again when did Kate and Gerry manage that one.

The erm, predator did not get through the window because it has a shutter across it that he did not actually jemmy to get at the window, this is why I have sometimes likened this chap to a ghost, i.e. plainly did not exist! The only fingerprints they found were on the inside, Katie's!

I think he got on the phone to four different relatives and said that and that is because he is a blatant liar who does not have a problem giving them the most terrible anguish by saying she has been taken by a GANG of Portuguese paedophiles, he knew it would make really good press, and get the racist slurs in against the police nice and quick. I do think the idea of doing this in Portugal appealed because he thought it would be a lot easier than coping with Leics Police who are very used to intensive crime although perhaps not necessarily so many quite as bad as him, white collar criminals as it were. I just digress but they can commit millions in fraud and get the same sentence as a petty shoplifter, that is on the rare occasions they ever get one! Of course judges can feel for them, as indeed they sometimes do for white collar paeodophiles, we cannot put this man with all these rough criminals, he is a professional! Of course with the likes of Dr Shipman and Lord Archer (is he a professional??) exceptions can be made!

Oh sorry er Lord Archer please do not sue me, you are an esteemed writer and politician, um. Like to blow your own trumpet then!

Alex Woolfall wrote in The Times, pleading their innocence, of course, that there was no talk from either in the earlier stages of Maddie having been snatched or taken by paedophiles, no the talk was of her just wandering off or being taken in by some kindly soul. But the following week he says their tone changed and then they started talking really dirty. Funny that because he was doing that the very first night to his relatives, just for effect of course. Also in that first interview with ?? Hill on the BBC, video on here, they absolutely insist, most unconvincingly they never had any doubts, they knew immediately she had been abducted. Well of course they did, honesty pays!

Wizard said...

Hi Nancy,
You say:-

“As I said before, unless they were all lying about the regular half hourly checks, there is no way this predator had time to get away with Madeleine.”

Well someone could have taken M quite easily, if that someone was O’Brien he was away from the tapis bar at the time allegedly she was taken, he has not got an alibi and he would certainly know the routine of the T9’s checks on their children. He would also know which door was left open and which was locked. This is why I believe Tanner made up Bundleman giving an exactly opposite description to that of O’Brien.

The motive of course we do not know but opportunity he certainly had.

viv said...

A man, George Burke, said a young couple with a child were hurrying along early on the previous morning, around 6.00am. That seems a very strange time for a couple to be out with a child. I wonder what, if any, credence can be put on his statement!


TBH with you Hope that is what we seem to be missing to a large extent, any detailed information about what witnesses say, unless of course they got to figure in the press through desperation like Smith and the taxi driver.

We do have some but it seems the police are holding back on quite a few!

From above reports:

dated 2 Jan 2008

Investigators from the Metodo 3 agency hired by Maddie's parents Gerry and Kate are preparing to travel to Ireland to interview them.



Now I think this is very significant. The Smiths gave statement back in May 07, but it seems to me the McCanns were very desperate and worried in the early months of 2008 and having ignored the most obvious sighting of Maddie being taken away, suddenly want to send the banditos to see them. Paranoia totally sets in and they start proceedings in the High Court with their usual imperious demands

GIVE US THAT FILE NOW, WE SAID SO!

Clearly The Chief Cons of Leicester and others, had to show Gerry who he is boss, and her too!

I think he looks like he is realising that even more now, slowly slowly..

Zodiac said...

http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=26769

An interesting updated thread on 3 A's page 4/5.

viv said...

Going out again now darling, laters!


xx

Di said...

Hi Nancy

If the predator supposedly broke in through the window, how come only kates fingerprints were on the shutter. I also seem to remember they were in such a position Kate had to be inside the apartment when she touched the shutter. We are no doubt going to be told next that the abductor wore gloves. Funny how Jane never mentioned this.

As you say all very confusing.

Di said...

Zodiac

Thanks for the link, very interesting, it would appear that the investigation is still ongoing.

Zodiac said...

If the phantom abductor now climbed in through the window and left via the patio doors that could only be opened from inside. How did he/she pass the father talking to the man with the child in the buggy? Was the window left opened because it was not jemmied?

nancy said...

Hello Di -

He probably took a duster with him or wore gloves. I can't imagine anyone, even a woman, trying to get in one of those continental style windows. If they are the same as we have in Spain, and they certainly look to be from the photos, for a start they don't push upwards, or open right out like windows in the UK; there would be only half a window space to get in and out of. Also the shutters are very difficult to push up, and there was no sign of it being jemmied - that was just in Gerry's imagination. What a shame the window didn't have bars on the outside like most do in Portugal, Spain and Italy, then that story would have literally gone out of the window (to make a pun!)

Zodiac said...

BBFN

nancy said...

Hi Zodiac -


Now you really are getting me confused.

I think he must have been 'the invisible man'!

nancy said...

Hi Wizard -

You are absolutely right about that! There was an equal opportunity for all of them that night. As they say, you never know what goes on behind closed doors!

And having watched Jane Tanner on the Panorame programme, I have no faith whatsoever in what she said, she acted very deviously.

In fact none of their statements seem spontaneous or ring true - you can tell they are worried about tripping themselves and each other up by saying the wrong thing.

hope4truth said...

Hi Viv

I dont want to belive it because I have just got a cat from a lady who was very very ill and she had to re house her pets and found it very hard to let go (and I felt terrible for collecting the cat)she died a couple of days later and the friend who told me about the cats said she was pleased she had rehoused them and knew they were safe...

SO for someone to choose to give a child away in such an evil way I suppose I just dont want to belive they are that rotten...

I have thought about Mums comments about her good news and it could well be that she is alive and well which would make me very happy...

Not sure why she thinks it will upset us if this is the case but I will think even worse of her parents if this is true though as they have gone out of their way to spin never searched and as for Kate well what kind of hard faced bitch refuses to answer questions on behalf of her missing child?

Just because I dont want to belive that they just got rid of her it does not mean they did not do just that...

xxx

nancy said...

Hello Hope,

It is of course upsetting for anyone to think that parents could do something like giving up or harming one of their children. Unfortunately it happens more often than we realise.

We all have our theories of course but none of us can be 100% sure what happened that night in PrdeLuz, but I believe Goncalo Amaral, who worked and has been involved in the case from day 1. He has said the parents were involved and I believe him.

If the McCanns had been normal parents who showed emotion and real feelings, then most of us would have felt very sorry for them losing a child, even though they did a terrible thing by leaving their children alone. But it wasn't just one night was it. Their friends are equally culpable, and they are fortunate that their children are still around.

What has made most people very suspicious is the complete lack of co-operation they gave the PJ's and how they immediately got on the media band wagon, with personal appearances, the Madeleine Fund etc.

They have never acted as though they are grief stricken. Some people say it's because they are doctors, but I don't believe that would make them any less emotional when it comes to their own families. I have a niece who is a doctor and the thought of one of her children going missing would have completely devastated her. I doubt she or her husband would ever have been able to get over it and return to some kind of normality for a long long time.

We can all see from photos of the McCanns that they don't look as though they have aged one iota since May 2007. I think I would have aged a 100 years overnight if it had been my daughter.

Could they or their friends have had a hand in Maddie's disappearance? Having seen their behaviour since she disappeared, I think they could, but only time will tell.

Off for the evening now - see you all tomorrow.

Nx

Di said...

Good point by Nicked on 3A's

None of these have been forthcoming, Unless someone can tell me differently. It is so difficult to keep up with 3A's it moves so fast, or am I just getting too old for all of this:o(

Di

otleepseely wrote:
Nicked: Who, in your opinion, are the gullible and why would Mr. L. want to persuade them of anything?

Don't make statements you cannot back up. I thought you would have learned that by now as you are constantly telling this forum.

Nicked replied.

But I can back up my opinion: as follows.

The gullible refers to anyone who believes that the 24 photos story, as presented to us by Levy, is true. It also referrs to anyone who believed his claims that "Gerry is not the father" and that the McCanns were about to be arrested and charged.

As to why Mr L would want to persuade anyone that there is a cover up at leics Police headquarters regarding the existence of this dvd, it is for the same reasons that all that rubbish about McGuiness/a map under the sofa was recently put on Reis's blog.

There are people who have an interest in perpetuating the myths in this case... in sustaining interest and momentum. This applies to several people who depend partly on this case for making a living/their reputation.

Di said...

Nancy

Well said.

Enjoy your evening

x

Wizard said...

Last years accounts make ineresting reading - part 2 to follow.

MADELEINE’S FUND: LEAVING NO STONE UNTURNED LIMITED
(Limited by Guarantee)
INCOME AND EXPENDITURE ACCOUNT FOR THE PERIOD ENDED 31 MARCH 2008

INCOME £1,846,178
Merchandise and Campaign Costs (673,366)
GROSS SURPLUS £1,172,812

Administration expenses (141,747)

OPERATING SURPLUS £1,031,065

Interest receivable 33,424

SURPLUS ON ORDINARY ACTIVITIES BEFORE TAX £1,064,489

Tax on surplus on ordinary activities (12,462)

SURPLUS CARRIED FORWARD £1,052,027

dylan said...

Evening all,

Zodiac, thanks for that link to the 3a's thread about FOI. There were two different HO replies posted as one of the posters had written to the HO concerning the release of info not relating to the CCs. Both are interesting, I find, as it does seem to intimate that there is still an ongoing investigation. I am curious to know as to whether this relates to a search for a living child and there are no investigations involving the McCanns, or whether the wording was such that it could imply the McCanns are still being investigated by both the LP and the Portuguese authorities. Despite the ambiguities, I think this hopeful.

Di, Nicked's comments are true, I admit. I'd forgotten about the photos and other things that made their way into the public domain and then just disappeared or fizzled out! Of course, this doesn't mean that there was no truth to that news. Maybe we will never know!

xx

Wizard said...

Schedule to the detailed accounts for the period ended 31.03/08

Income £
Sales of t-shirt and wrist bands – 64,078
Donation income via bank – 1,390,360
Donation income via website – 391,740 Total = £1,846,178


Merchandise and Campaign Costs
Sales of t-shirts and wrist bands – 26,616
Awareness – 81,904
Campaign management – 123,573
Cost of distruibuting merchandise – 8,574
Legal fees and expenses – 111,522
Hotel, travel and substistence – 7.993
Website – 37,071
Media Monitoring – 26,113
Search fees – 250,000 Total = 673,366


Administration expenses
Printing and stationery – 1,497
Postage - 204
Telephone and Fax – 2,608
Fund Legal Fees – 68,799
Auditors’ remuneration – 13,366
Accountancy fees – 7,050
Fund professional fees – 36,070
Bank chargesSundry expenses – 7,363
Insurances – 1,277
Meeting and events – 1,023 Total = £141,747

Di said...

Hi Zodiac/Dyl

Zodiac I will put the link up, hope you don't mind, to the accounts.

link from Zodiac

I agree Dyl we do not know what the truth is, the 24 photos could still turn up etc.,

Di said...

Off for a while

BBL

Wizard said...

£26,113 spent on media monitoring – well that explains a lot of the chimp activities. What I have difficulty understanding is why under merchandise and campaign costs do they have £111,522 in legal fees and expenses. That appears to me to be excessively high. The cost of the website is also excessive £37,071 they certainly didn’t shop around or they would have known they could have got their website built for a fraction of that cost. Seems to me a lot of people making a lot of money out of this fund.

hope4truth said...

MMMM

And why would Madeleine need legal fees?

Legal fees and expenses – 111,522

Sorry I dont understand how would a lawyer be any use to Madeleine at all???

Zodiac said...

'but I believe Goncalo Amaral, who worked and has been involved in the case from day 1. He has said the parents were involved and I believe him.'

Nancy I agree with your comment above.

Dylan,

I cannot see how CC info would affect the safety of the missing child. I can however understand that info could be delicate in an ongoing investigation in the UK regarding the parents. We the public do not know exactly what is going on in the UK with regards to this crime. His return to PT I still wonder if it was compulsory. He did not have the usual arrogant air about him; not the usual send us more money for our own private investigation. If she returns to PT especially on her own then I believe all is not well in Muccaland as R/p's and Mammytaewan would like us all to think.


PS. Dylan I was thinking of your cat. We had chilli for supper tonight. How is your little chilli keeping. Is he friends with you again?

Zodiac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wizard said...

Mmm...indeed.
Under merchandise and campaign costs there are £111,522 in legal fees and a further £68,799 legal fees under administration expenses. Making a total of £180,321. With an income of £1,846,178, before tax, means nearly 10% of income goes straight to solicitors. Campaign management eats up another £123,573 and another £36,070 on fund professional fees. That’s an awful lot of money going out. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of these outgoings but the annoying thing about published accounts is not what they tell you but what they do not – the interesting bits are never divulged or very well hidden.

Zodiac said...

Another interesting thread from 3 A's:

http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=28124&sid=7fe5afecb2f6c4990ae360e888c99f90

Night all read you tomorrow.

viv said...

Thanks very much for this letter on 3 As which confirms what I have said all along that this case is still being investigated and any disclosure of information could prejudice the integrity of that information as the Chief Constable told the High Court in July 2008. It is great news to have that confirmed!!


Organised & International Crime Directorate
5th Floor Fry Building, 2 Marsham Street, London SW1P 4DF
Switchboard xxx Fax xxx Direct Line xxx E-mail xxx
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk
Ms xxx Our ref: xxx
xxx@xxx
Date:28th January 2009
Dear Ms xxx
RE: FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUEST
HOME OFFICE MATERIAL RELATING TO MADELEINE MCCANN

I am writing further to my correspondence on the 16th December 2008. We are now in a
position to offer a full reply to your request. I would like to apologise for the length of time it
has taken to respond to your request. This delay has been due to giving full and due
consideration to the public interest test together with the necessity to consult with other
agencies.

It is noted that your request was to essentially seek information for any record or document
or extract thereof reporting or evidencing that neither of the parents of Madeleine Beth
McCann possessed any credit card or debit card from any financial institution during the
period 25th April 2007 and 12th September 2007. You additionally requested any record or
document or extract thereof reporting or evidencing that the alleged affirmation was made by
any official of the Home Office to any police officer in the Leicestershire Constabulary and
failing the existence of any written record whether such affirmation was made verbally the
name of the official(s) and the recipient officer(s). The request was also seeking information
of any record or document or extract reporting or evidencing the credit card or debit
transactions made by the parents of Madeleine Beth McCann between the 4th May 2007 and
21st July 2008.

Your request for information has been considered under the Freedom of Information Act
2000 (the Act) and we are now able to provide you with a substantive response to your
request.

Section 1 of the Act places two duties on public authorities when handling requests. The first
of these duties, provided at s1(1)(a) is to confirm or deny whether the information requested
is actually held by that authority. The second duty is for that information to be disclosed
where it has been confirmed that it exists. This is provided under s1(1)(b).

The Home Office can neither confirm nor deny that we hold information relevant to your
request as our duty under s1(1)(a) does not apply by virtue of the following provisions of the
Act:

* Section 27(4) – prejudice to International Relations;
* Section 31(3) – prejudice to Law Enforcement activities; and
* Section 38(2) – endangering Health & Safety.

This letter therefore also serves as a refusal notice under s17(1) of the Act.

Furthermore, the Home Office will not comment on any of the information contained in
Goncal Amaral’s book, ‘A Verdade da Mentira’ as it would potentially undermine ongoing
investigations.

There are a number of sensitivities relevant to your request, given that Madeleine McCann is
still missing and the investigation is still ongoing. Confirming or denying whether any
information is held could undermine the investigation, prejudice international relations and
could endanger the health and safety of members of the public.

We have considered public interest considerations in making our decision and we have
attached these to this letter. We believe that, at this time, the public interest strongly favours
neither confirming nor denying that the information you have requested is or is not held by
the Home Office.

This response should not be taken as conclusive evidence that the information you
have requested either does or does not exist.

If you are dissatisfied with this response you may request an independent internal review of
our handling of your request by submitting your complaint within two months to the below
address quoting reference xxx

Information Rights Team
Information and Record Management Service
Home Office
4th Floor, Seacole Building
2 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DF
Or email: xxx

During the independent review the department’s handling of your information request will be
reassessed by an official that was not involved in providing you with this response. Should
you remain dissatisfied after this internal review, you will have a right of complaint to the
Information Commissioner as established by section 50 of the Freedom of Information Act.
I realise that you may be disappointed with this response. However we have considered
your request with great care, and the Home Office always seeks to provide as much
information as it is able to.

Thank you for your interest in the Home Office.
Yours sincerely
xxx
Team Leader
UK Central Authority

Public Interest Considerations

s.17 – Refusal of request

(1) A public authority which, in relation to any request for information, is to any extent
relying on a claim that any provision in part II relating to the duty to confirm or deny is
relevant to the request or on a claim that information is exempt information must,
within the time for complying with section1(1), give the applicant a notice which -

(a) states the fact,
(b) specifies the exemption in question, and
(c) states (if that would not otherwise be apparent) why the exemption applies.

s.27 – International Relations

(1) Information is exempt information if its disclosure under this Act would, or would be
likely to, prejudice,

(a) relations between the United Kingdom and any other state,
(b) relations between the United Kingdom and any international organisation or
international court

(4) The duty to confirm or deny does not arise if, or to the extent that, compliance with
section 1(1)(a) –
(a) would, or would be likely to, prejudice any of the matters mentioned in
subsection (1)

s.31 – Law Enforcement
(1) Information which is not exempt information by virtue of section 30 is exempt
information if its disclosure under this Act would, or would be likely to, prejudice-

(a) the prevention or detection of crime,
(b) the apprehension or prosecution of offenders,
(c) the administration of justice,

(4) The duty to confirm or deny does not arise if, or to the extent that, compliance with
section 1(1)(a) would, or would be likely to, prejudice any of the matters mentioned in
subsection (1)

s.38 – Health & Safety

(1) Information is exempt information if its disclosure under this Act would, or would be
likely to-

(a) endanger the physical or mental health of any individual, or
(b) endanger the safety of any individual.

(4) The duty to confirm or deny does not arise if, or to the extent that, compliance with
section 1(1)(a) would, or would be likely to, prejudice any of the matters mentioned in
subsection (1)

Harm and prejudice

The investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is still ongoing. There are
significant unknowns in relation to her disappearance. Leicestershire Constabulary are the
lead force in the UK dealing with this investigation but the principle investigation agency is
Policia Judiciara (PJ) in Portugal. We believe that significant harm to the investigation could
result from either confirming or denying that we hold the information you have asked for.

Should this investigation lead to a prosecution, saying whether or not this information is or is
not held by the Home Office would risk undermining the human rights of any suspect to a fair
trial and the rights of a victim, particularly if the prosecution would fail due to such an
announcement.

If the Home Office was to either confirm or deny that it did or did not hold any information that
was gathered in the course of this investigation, it might risk compromising the conduct of
this investigation. This could ultimately prejudice the administration of justice. In any event,
to confirm or deny that any such information that was or was not obtained in the course of a
criminal investigation, either voluntarily or through compulsory powers, ought not to be
generally disclosed, save as far as it is necessary for the purposes of establishing or
defending rights in litigation.

There is consequently a strong public interest in ensuring that evidence is not contaminated
for any future trial. In addition there is a strong public interest to preserve relations with the
Policia Judiciara (PJ) in Portugal whilst Madeleine remains missing.

Two of the Home Office’s objectives are to support the efficient and effective delivery of
justice, and to lead visible, responsive and accountable policing. The manner in which the
Home Office works to support the Police Service as a whole is one of our core business
functions.

If the Home Office prejudiced such a high-profile and sensitive investigation by confirming or
denying that we either do or do not hold any of the information that you have requested, we
would be seen as working against the efforts of both UK and Portuguese policing authorities,
undermining their determined efforts to locate Madeline McCann and her assailants. This
would not be in the best interests of the public..

Any prejudicial effects to these ongoing investigations could jeopardise the health & safety,
of Madeline McCann, in that it might significantly affect the chances of her being found.
There is no actual public interest served in releasing information that may jeopardise the
health & safety of any individual.

There is a strong public interest in the UK maintaining the arrangements it currently enjoys
with other States in matters of judicial and mutual legal cooperation in criminal and other
matters. Any act that would prejudice this investigation may discourage other States with
complying with reasonable requests issued by the UK or from pursuing legitimate
investigations in the UK for fear that the product of such requests or investigations may be
disclosed to private citizens.

viv said...

I think we held back financial information and probably detail about sex offending too because we want to deal with it ourselves!!

Di said...

Hi Hope

I agree, why would Madeleine need legal fees and expenses £111,522?

Viv

Help

viv said...

Now listen shit for brains with splinters up your arse, my original belief was that Gerry carried Maddie off that night, see Jan 2008 and that is still my belief. I do not know whether she was dead or alive but I now think having seen the statements she was more than likely alive, which actually makes their conduct even worse. I have consistently believed that Gerry McCann is a pyschopath and I have not changed that either. "Make Eddie and Keela react the way they did", are you one of these barmy conspiracy theorists as well as being "on the fence". As Mr Grime explains, see 3 As, if you can be bothered they can react to old dried blood. Who knows how that got there given the McCanns are clearly very abusive parents! I have stuck with my original beliefs and also been prepared to amend them when I have gained access to the DVD information from the files, I realise you would not have the common sense or the brains to do that, you have never managed to support one side or the other, because you do not have a mind or any principles, you are just a trouble making little idiot who still smarts because I quite rightly threw you off this blog!

Now whose made a fool of herself yet again, just like I have always said, British Police are still investigating the McCanns, so we will see just who is going to look the fool at the end of the day, splinter arse and your pathetic little mates!


So now she is saying that she has been sucked in by the McCanns big campaign. Well more fool you Viv, you should have joined me on the fence then you would not look such a prat as you are looking now. BTW how did they make Eddie & Keela react the way they did. You have always said the dogs do not lie. I am no lover of the McCanns but I have got to hand it to them, if what you say is true they are so clever. They have fooled everyone including YOU. Either stick with your original beliefs or give it up you are making a absolute fool of yourself.

dylan said...

Go Viv!!

Viv, why don't you just ignore her? Let her have her rant. At the end of the day, she still doesn't really belong anywhere and I feel sorry for her.

Zodiac, Chilli is doing very well, thanks. The advice leaflet said that he had had painkillers which will last 36 hrs & I was really worried he'd end up in pain by around last Sunday. On the contrary, he doesn't seem to give a fig! He's back to his old tricks, stalks around like he owns the place and has already stolen a pouch of cat food from next door :-))) That's around his 10th pouch he's nicked since summer, on top of the mystery rabbit fur cat toy that appeared in his bed one day too!! He really is a little thief! Have you heard of the children's story 'Slinky Malinky'? - he's just like him!

I think you are correct about the CC info. That could only have an adverse effect on the parents if it were to go to court in that they could claim that they did not have a fair trial. I don't see that it comes under the 'public health' category at all if Madeleine is presumed to be alive and missing.

Hi Di and Hope. All that money.....! Madeleine doesn't need legal fees. If she was abducted, what she needed was parents who cooperated with the police and answered questions that could have lead to her being found.

Viv, another question out of interest - do you think that the The Mcs would have colluded with M3 to set up sightings if they wanted the world to believe that they killed her?

I made veggie haggis tonight, a little late for Burns Night but it did remind me that I posted I cooked it this time last year. Seems like such a long time ago now and is a reminder to me that the parents of a lovely daughter who went missing, have done zilch to help get her back other than try to attach themsleves to Amber Alert and polish their halos, and ask for the case files. Pitiful!

xx

hope4truth said...

Hi Dyl

Could you e mail me the veggi hagis recipe please xxx

Pleased Chilli is ok little scamp taking all that stuff lol xxx

viv said...

Dilly, I am really tired tonight and that stupid Gina is such an odious little creature, at least RP and Bum stick to their own ground!

But I am very thrilled that what I said is clearly right, the case got shelved in Portugal because they had ran out of time and much of the offending would not have been within their jurisdiction anyway. I have clearly said this case would be dealt with here by our own police and this just confirms it!


Woe betide Team McCann and I hope and I pray that if little Maddie is still alive they can please, please, rescue her!! I know it is a lot to hope for, but I will not give up hope!!

"A bit of a scoping exercise to see what else can be done in the search". I know where I would like to stick his scope!

Di legal expenses, solicitors to prepare the documents to set up the fund, advise and prepare objectives and setting up of company, registration of trademark etc.

Three appearances in the High Court, Family Division. That would have involved solicitors to draft statements, application and pleadings and barristers to actually appear in court on what would seem to be possibly three occasions, 20 May, 2 April, ? July.

I think they probably employed both leading and junior barristers as well as very expensive family solicitors, estimated £70,000 plus the above, so that sounds about right.

dylan said...

Hope, of course! Consider it done :-)

Viv, no worries. I just don't think Gina is worth the effort. I never had a problem with her personally, but judging by what she writes about you now, she is just proving that you were right to expel her and it all comes down to bitterness on her part.

Off to bed now. Sleep well, all. Nite xx

viv said...

Hiya Dilly

As you know expulsions have been extremely rare and something I avoid but in her case it was the right decision because she did nothing but stir up trouble, and yes it is bitterness, she just cannot get over it because it is very difficult to get kicked out of here! I love my bloggers:-)))


xxx

viv said...

Dilly I am so thrilled Chilli is cruising around again and feeling so much better, that must be a huge relief for "mum"!

I know we love pets a great deal too, got to the restaurant tonight and noticed Nanday had kindly liberally dusted me in his small white fluffy feathers, what a sweetheart xx

viv said...

Viv, another question out of interest - do you think that the The Mcs would have colluded with M3 to set up sightings if they wanted the world to believe that they killed her?

I think that may have been a recent strategy, perhaps hatched around last Oct when Bennett set up his website to ridicule the forthcoming book of Goncalo by employing or at the very least encouraging Tony Bennett, it is just not at all difficult to ridicule Tony Bennett xx

In the earlier stages I think it was far more about trying to protect their reputation and the dog evidence was clearly giving that one hell of a bashing! Now I think they accept that by and large they lost their reputation, Kate must have know that when she appeared on TV pulling that hideous face and saying "she just moved on", then we had the angst I wished I had grabbed her and cuddled her, well yes Kate, you can wish for everything when it is too late, and you will never get her back, accept it!

xx

viv said...

A defamation action is founded on the basic principle you have a good name in society and the actions of someone in slandering you and damaging that good reputation.

So, if you constantly behave in a disreputable way you cannot expect the law of libel to protect you, it is an equitable remedy and "he who comes to equity must come with clean hands".

Say for example you are intermeddling in a serious criminal investigation and potentially prejudicing a proper trial from taking place, indeed you go further you deliberately harass the criminal suspects in that investigation breaking the criminal law in the process. Could someone pointing that out to you and that you should not be preventing a little girl from getting justice be libel? Well of course not!

Act reasonable and lawfully and do not ruin your own reputation! Some people are neither lawyers or psychiatrists so perhaps should save their, ahem, "advice"!

JUSTICE FOR MADDIE!!

Wizard said...

Good Morning All,

Folling my post detailing the Madeleine Fund accounts yesterday I copy below today’s Daily Mail's opinion on the recently release accounts for the Fund I copy them below:-

"Where the £2m you gave to find Madeleine McCann has gone

The fund set up to help find Madeleine McCann raised almost £2million in the first ten months after she vanished, it was revealed yesterday.

The wave of shock and public sympathy that swept Britain after her suspected abduction led supporters to donate money at a rate of almost £260 an hour.

Accounts lodged with Companies House show the fund received £1.4million in bank donations, another £391,000 over the internet and £64,000 from the sale of T-shirts and wristbands.

In total, it received £1.85million in its first ten months and earned £33,424 in interest. It spent £815,113 on the search for Madeleine in that time.

This included £26,000 to fund the purchase of merchandise and £250,000 on the fees for private investigators.

But the accounts – which have been made public for the first time – have been published with a warning that donations had gone on to fall dramatically and were now ‘significantly lower’ than in the immediate aftermath of the three-yearold’s disappearance in Portugal in 2007.

Support for her parents – Kate and Gerry – was rocked when Portuguese police named them as suspects, and when it emerged they had used public donations to pay two £2,000 instalments on their mortgage.

Madeleine vanished from a holiday flat in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on May 3, 2007, while her parents ate dinner at a nearby restaurant with friends.

The accounts provide a fascinating insight into the surge of support the family received, but also the costs of their worldwide campaign to find their child.

The fund’s biggest expense in the first ten months was £250,000 spent on private investigators hired to try to find her, including the Spanish agency Metodo 3.

Agency boss Francisco Marco boasted he would find Madeleine within three months, but his ‘leads’ seemingly came to nothing and the firm is no longer involved with the hunt.

The fund spent £123,573 on campaign management, which is believed to include the salary of the McCanns’ temporary spokesman Justine McGuinness and the fees of a PR agency.

A later spokesman, former BBC journalist Clarence Mitchell, had his salary paid by one of the couple’s wealthy benefactors.

The fund spent £111,522 on legal fees and expenses and £81,904 on posters and television and newspaper adverts appealing for information about Madeleine. Mr and Mrs McCann, both 40, set up the fund in May 2007.

Legal restrictions meant it could not be set up as a charity, so it is run as a not-for-profit company by a board made up of McCann friends, colleagues and relatives.

Mr McCann’s brother John is its chairman and wrote a foreword to the accounts. He said: ‘As expected, the level of donations has fallen over time, although we have a number of loyal donors continuing their support.’

He went on: ‘However our expenses are ongoing and likely to increase . . . The release of the police investigation files has enabled our investigative team to access a wealth of new information to be followed up, resulting in increased search and investigation activity.

'We will continue to ensure that Madeleine is not forgotten and will leave no stone unturned in our continued search for her.’

The accounts cover the months from May 2007 to March 2008, when the fund had £1.05million remaining in its coffers.

It has since been boosted by several libel payouts to the McCanns and their friends, the so-called Tapas Seven, which they donated to the fund.

The McCanns were cleared as suspects last August.

Their spokesman Mr Mitchell said: ‘People will be able to see that every penny of the money they so generously donated has been spent properly in the hunt to find Madeleine.’"

Niki said...

Oh, what a laughable article!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1131284/Where-2m-gave-Madeleine-McCann-gone.html?ITO=1490

Where the £2m you gave to find Madeleine McCann has gone


Some of the comments are spot on!

Where has the monies earned from interviews and magazine articles gone?
Did they not put this into the fund?
Click to rate Rating 28- Paul, Manchester, 29/1/2009 8:35


All that money spent and not a sign of her......
Click to rate Rating 12- Lou, France, 29/1/2009 8:35


What a lovely family business ! So much money wasted and I see, as usual that the banks and accountants have profited as usual.
Click to rate Rating 10- Kathy Doyle, London, 29/1/2009 8:52

PR fees and legal fees, are not what people expected their money to be spent on. But still they ask for more.
Click to rate Rating 13- polly, newcastle, 29/1/2009 9:03


The police are obliged to investigate missing children and there should be no need for individuals to donate money. What use was it. many pensioners are out of pocket donating to lawyers printers and PR merchants. Next time something similar happens call your police and tell them to get on with it. No need send cheques or teddies
Click to rate Rating 13- Paul Taylor, Shenzhen China, 29/1/2009 9:11

Niki said...

Hi Wizard!

Did not see you there!!! What a team we are!
You posting the article and I the comments:-))

Wizard said...

Just reading Joana Morais and she says that Leonor Cipriano's Lawyer, Marcos Aragao, sent a fax to the GNR of Portimão in the late afternoon of yesterday, calling for searches to be done in "an abandoned house up there, in the mountains of Figueira," where the mother of Joana [convicted for murdering Joana] says that her brother João Cipriano buried the corpse of the eight year old girl.
Do you think Cipriano told Aragao of her daughter’s whereabouts or Mr Aragao had another one of his visions? I thought he was off the case due to a suspension by the Portuguese Law Society.

Wizard said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wizard said...

Hi Niki - lol

Accounts - well I always say it's not whats in them but whats missed out thats the important bits.

Di said...

Hi Wizard/Niki

Thanks for posting the article and comments. I have just been over to have a look, there are many unhappy people and quite rightly so. What a waste of money.

Di said...

I seem to recall Gerry's brother gave up his well paid job to run the fund.

Where is his salary shown or have I missed it. He can't be living on thin air.

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