23 Jan 2009

JUSTICE FOR KIDNAPPED SHANNON AS "MOM" GETS 8 YEARS

Karen Matthews sentenced to eight years in jail for kidnapping daughter, Shannon
Andrew Norfolk

Karen Matthews and her accomplice in the "truly despicable" kidnapping of her nine-year-old daughter were each jailed for eight years today by a judge who revealed the girl was deeply traumatised by her time in captivity.

Shannon Matthews was so damaged by the 24 days during which she was held drugged and at times tethered inside a flat that she continues to suffer flashbacks, including nightmares in which she is tied up, Leeds Crown Court heard.

Mr Justice McCombe told Matthews, 33, and Michael Donovan, 40, that he found it "impossible to conceive how you could have found it in you to put this young girl through the ordeal that you inflicted upon her".

In a startling development, he also suggested that the pair's low intellect made it "doubtful whether they could have conceived or continued these offences without the assistance or connivance of others".
Related Links

* Shannon Matthews suffers recurring nightmares

* She came from the wrong sort of family

* Social services deemed Shannon was safe

Multimedia

* PICTURES: Karen Matthews

Matthews claimed during the trial that other members of her family, including her boyfriend, Craig Meehan, and his sister, Amanda Hyett, knew of the plot to grab Shannon on her way home from school in February last year.

The plan, possibly inspired by the 2007 abduction of Madeleine McCann, was to hold the child prisoner before later claiming a reward – £50,000 was offered by a national newspaper – for her safe return.

Shannon later told police that there had been contact from other family members during her time at Donovan's flat, one mile from her council home in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire. He is Craig Meehan's uncle.

Speaking after the sentencing, Matthews's friend, Julie Bushby, who chairs the residents' association on the Dewsbury Moor estate where the family lived, spoke of her conviction that the full truth behind the kidnapping had not yet emerged.

"I don't think Karen's done it on her own. She's not got the intelligence, but if she isn't going to break and say what the full story is, what can us little people do to help her? She's got to put her cards on the table."

Detective Superintendent Andy Brennan, who headed the £3.2 million police hunt for the schoolgirl, insisted later that the case, for now, remained closed.

"If new evidence comes to light, it will of course be investigated, but the Crown Prosecution Service has reviewed all the evidence in this case and concluded there was insufficient evidence to charge anyone else in connection with Shannon's disappearance."

The 999 call made by Matthews to report her daughter missing led to a massive search operation involving 300 police officers and numerous members of the public. More than 800 potential suspects were identified.

MY PROFILE SHOP JOBS PROPERTY CLASSIFIEDS

Shannon, who had been doped with temazepam and a travel sickness drug called Traveleeze, was eventually rescued when police officers forced entry to Donovan's flat and found the child hidden in the base of a divan bed.

The judge read a statement from a senior social worker which revealed that Shannon and her three siblings had all "suffered adversely" from their mother's crime.

Shannon had been left "disturbed and traumatised and frightened" and would need to undergo periods of psychotherapy and specialist "therapeutic interventions" over a long period to help her to recover.

"She appeared to relive her experiences and she often complains of having nightmares where she is being tied up."
Related Links

* Shannon Matthews suffers recurring nightmares

* She came from the wrong sort of family

* Social services deemed Shannon was safe

Multimedia

* PICTURES: Karen Matthews

Mr Justice McCombe told Matthews and Donovan: "It is incomprehensible that you could have permitted your friends, neighbours, and in your case, Matthews, even your children to sacrifice time and energy in extensive searches for the supposedly missing child.

"It is also incomprehensible that you could stand by and watch enormous police resources being wasted in an earnest and distressing search which many officers would have thought could only lead to a tragic discovery."

Matthews and Donovan were each sentenced to a total of eight years in prison, a six-year term for kidnapping running concurrently with three years for false imprisonment, plus a consecutive two-year sentence for perverting the course of justice.

Because each has served more than 280 days on remand in custody, they are likely to be released on licence after serving little more than three years of their sentence.

Frances Oldham QC, in mitigation for Matthews, said she had been demonised by the media coverage of the case and by a senior police officer's inaccurate description of her as "pure evil".

Away from "the hysteria and hyperbole", Matthews should be viewed as "an inadequate woman who found herself in a situation beyond her control". She had an IQ of 74, low self esteem and a limited attention span.

"The one thing Karen Matthews is not is pure evil. She is not Myra Hindley; she is not Rose West."

The court heard that Matthews had seven children by a number of fathers and that "most of her relationships have been characterised by domestic violence".

Alan Conrad, QC, for Donovan, said that Shannon had been well looked after and well-nourished during her imprisonment. She had been "treated with a degree of respect and allowed her own space".

Both barristers argued that their clients would have been intellectually incapable of organising and carrying out the kidnap plot without the assistance of others.

150 comments:

Wizard said...

8 years! Karen Mathews has an IQ of 74, a normal IQ in Britain falls between the ranges of 90 to 110. It would be correct to describe her as having learning difficulties and I suppose it could be argued didn’t fully understand her crime. She also has a short attention span which would make matter worse. Despite all this she was given 8 years and I wonder if that is really fair. Before feeling too sorry for her, however, the average IQ in the UK is as stated above but in America the average IQ is about 70 thus is 74 really that low?

Karen and her pals are no doubt rueing the day they hatched their plans at trying to copy there betters who no doubt have a much higher IQ. Did Ms Mathews deserve 8 years, well not really imo, but if you’re economically, socially and intellectually at the bottom of the pile you can always expect the book to be thrown at you. She was wrong to do what she did and should never be in charge of children again but did the sentence fit the crime when you take into account her disability? After all murderers get less!

Di said...

Hi Wizard

Good point. Murderers do in some cases get less.

If it had not been for the McCanns leaving their children home alone night after night and one going missing, we would never have heard of Karen Matthews.

viv said...

Hi Wizard, she actually got 6 years for kidnapping and another two years for perverting the course of justice which for these offences are very lenient sentences. I am sure the judge did take into account her low intellect and the pleas of both counsel that these two just could not have done this without help. But nevertheless on public policy grounds the sentence had to be a pretty stiff one, I think he has got the balance about right. Particularly when you think of what she will suffer in a womens' prison. The public are entitled to expect justice for the real victim little Shannon, who still suffers enormously and I think that is what we have got!

Di, there is only one sentence for murder, life, and that generally means a tariff of about 14 years and then release on life licence, so any misdemeanour they can be recalled to prison throughout the rest of their life and this certainly happens.

Manslaughter cases though are a different matter, here the judge can award any sentence he likes from probation to life. Generally for a husband who was provoked apparently by his wife, he will get just 7 years, that does not seem much like justice to me but I suppose it does illustrate just how seriously the courts view the crimes that these two committed. Imagine what Kate and Gerry would get!!

Di said...

Hi Viv

If it is eventually proven that K & G were involved with the disappearance of Madeleine, I personally hope the book is thrown at them.

However, as a Mum I feel for the twins I am not heartless.

Wizard said...

My heart goes out to Shannon. A damaged mother who causes her daughter unknown psychological trauma by her actions. I hope Shannon’s therapy helps her through this very difficult time and her new home will assist her achieve her full potential. A big ask but I hope there is a positive outcome to this saga.

Di said...

I had forgotten about this. I remember commenting to mho at the time.

Posted by payge 3 A's

If anyone doubted that Kate Mccann always "played to the cameras" when she was in Portugal, they only have to see or remember that blatant act of manipulation of placing Cuddlecat at the very top of her backpack, his pink head sticking out, as she walked from the car into the police station at Portimao to be questioned. It was so deliberate it was sickening.

I totally agree Payge. Playing to the audience for sympathy.

Di said...

Hi Wizard

I agree with your sentiments, Shannon has much to overcome.

I am sure shannon will be getting the best possible care. Hopefully in time she will be able to trust people again and live a fulfilling happy and healthy life.

Di said...

Off now

Take care all

x

Wizard said...

I hope your right Di.

Wizard said...

Nite All.

viv said...

Hiya Di

I believe it is already proven that Kate and Gerry McCann were involved in Maddie's disappearance but still, the police lack clear evidence of exactly what they did with her to enable charges to be brought. I am just convinced though given that clear knowledge they will never let them off the hook. A little girl has just disappeared, by some extraordinary miracle she may even be alive, there is no way, we are going to just give up on her!

We do not have a clue just how much pressure has been put on Kate and Gerry by British Police, whether they have been further interviewed as suspects etc but I would think that is highly likely!

The further evidence of the TAPAS 7 is very clearly just another cover up but somehow I just feel they may be telling a basic truth, Maddie was abducted, what they are not going to admit is her parents arranged it due to their own involvement and fear of imprisonment.

I just think they did not want Madeleine, Kate did not bond with her and Gerry saw Maddie as an impediment to their perfect little family, he saw a way he could make that family rich and perfect, in his eyes.

Post I put on 3 As

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27884&p=828650#p828650

The article has been pulled fortunately for the little girl concerned and what a rotten and irresponsible thing to do. Particularly unfortunate because the substance of it is so helpful to other moms who may feel the same way and encourage them to get help. It could have been flagged as an article on child protection rather than actually abusing a child.

I just picked up on this one sentence below from the doctor because it was describing exactly what Kate McCann said bar one thing. Kate was wanting to stress it increased the bond between mother and child, whereas the doctor is actually saying it can interfere with bonding which makes a lot more sense. I always thought those remarks from Kate were very defensive and odd, trying to offer an explanation, maybe they were!



'Also, if the baby cries a lot and doesn't respond well to comforting, mothers can experience feelings of inadequacy and resentment that interfere with bonding.'



KATE McCann has told of how Madeleine cried for 18 hours a day as a baby and demanded constant attention when her twin brother and sister were born.
In an interview with a Portuguese magazine, the 39-year-old GP is reported to have discussed her daughter suffering colic and how, at 20 months old, she reacted to the birth of twins Sean and Amelie.
Mrs McCann's intention seems to have been to illustrate how she and Madeleine bonded so closely during those early years, when mother and daughter were rarely separated.

viv said...

Di for the benefit of me and you

Freeport in a nutshell, dont know whether you have seen it:

If Socrates himself is corrupt and influenced by big business projects there clearly could be a link with BK, see also my post below re this. I really hope not!


Bren wrote:
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/freeport-case-15-arguidos-list.html

Image

List of the Judiciary Police (Criminal Investigation Department of Setúbal) with 15 suspects in Freeport, published in the extinct newspaper 'O Independente', 18 February 2005 (bellow is the cover of that newspaper edition)
[img]
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/S ... 180205.JPG[/img]


Thank you Joana and astro. @};-



There's a lot going on today Bren, Can't keep up with it all.!!!!

January 22, 2009
Freeport Case: Police is investigating the Prime Minister's Uncle and lawyer Vieira de Almeida

By Felícia Cabrita

The home and business of Julio Carvalho Monteiro, entrepreneur and maternal uncle of José Sócrates, and the office of lawyers from Vasco Vieira de Almeida were subject to searches today, under the scope of the ‘Freeport case'.

The diligences were taken and implemented by the DCIAP (Central Department of Investigation and Penal Action) and the Judiciary Police.

At issue are the suspicions of corruption in the process that allowed the development of the construction of the shopping centre Freeport in Alcochete, the largest outlet in Europe.

The ongoing criminal investigation was opened in February 2005.

According to what Julio Carvalho Monteiro said to SOL, “the Police took various documents”, namely documents of “old offshores”. In a company owned by Carvalho Monteiro, the ISA, in Setúbal, all the financial records were seized. The investigators also referred an email that was sent to the Freeport, on the licensing of the outlet.

As well, the office of Vasco Vieira de Almeida - Freeport Plc's lawyer - was a target of searches by the investigators. Contacted by SOL, the lawyer Vasco Vieira de Almeida, refused to give statements, claiming that he does not speak about his professional life.

Source: SOL



by Joana Morais


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pear
Post subject: Re: Freeport Latest .......The 15 Arguidos List.... Joana Morais
New postPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:03 pm
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Can anybody explain me why this Freeport case interests the UK?


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Post subject: Re: Freeport Latest .......The 15 Arguidos List.... Joana Morais
New postPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:20 pm
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Location: Whenever you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
I think pear it is because rogatory letters (again) were sent to the British so they disclosed the details of some off-shore, banking accounts and financial transactions, and as per usual the Brits have not acted out the rogatory letters.

Edited to add a link for you pear

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=27691

viv said...

freeport thread
http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=27890


He was making calls to relatives giving them information to put in the press, which it was, and as you say his preposterous claim was the shutters got Gerried 8-} You can deny it just as many times as you like but what live witnesses say at the time, and clearly recorded in the press is EVIDENCE!

Martin Smith and his family have made a number of appeals to police, sometimes being quite distressed, convinced that they saw Gerry McCann, giving a very accurate description of him, which unlike Tanners has not changed over time to become less and less like Gerry. Crucially the Smiths state he was carrying a little blond girl about 1m about 4 years in pink Pjs who appeared to be "deeply asleep". He was carrying her in the direction of the beach. I think it is likely that Gerry did get nervous and start pulling his ear when asked about drugging the children because he did, he drugged all three that night and little Maddie was drugged when she was carried off by him down to the beach and a waiting boat. They then refused to let anyone ring the police for about another 40 minutes just to make sure the boat got clean away. Now who is this man who is going to use all his fortune helping the McCanns to his dying day and likes boats!

Now suck on that Kezza and Sabot, who are you? His private secretaries? does he let you have a lie in because you have been on late night duty? =)) =)) =))

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=27940&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=90

(a thread to entice the pros on and they arrived:-)))))

bath theory said...

Viv
Do you mean Gerry did a Harold Shipman on Maddie and then a boatman took her away? Or he sedated her to be looked after somewhere else in this world?

The issue I have with the above is it does not take in the bloodspats that Eddie and Keela found nor other things as to why the cuddle cat was washed etc.

These two must need sleeping pills with all the worries they have over 'who is it at the door love?'

Viv, do you really see Gerry doing a Harold Shipman ie intentionally drugging Maddie ?

In terms of Matthews I'm sorry but it was absolutely obvious. The first time we heard it my wife and I both said she looks extremely poor and from a very deprived/dysfunctional background and has seen the McCanns money and got excited. We didnt know but we were convinced. As we were with the McCanns involvement. Both my wife and I were castigated by one friend a few days later at a dinner party about saying this re Matthews and she has never apologised over her outburst even though her judgement was subsequently proved incorrect. What struck us after the McCann thing is that a lot of people thought something wasnt quite right but one friend said she had done the same thing whilst on holiday. Unbelieveable to have done it and even worse to have said it so proudly.

As Barack Obama said in his inauguration speech ...and the willingness for a parent to nurture their child... or something like that.

Yes it is extremely difficult being a parent and yes it can be so so tough but those who harm such young children are the lowest in the society. So it is easy to see how if a parent goes down that angle they are highly unlikely to admit anything. FOR THEY KNOW WHAT THEY TRULY ARE.

bath theory said...

Especially so if they have the intellect of a respected profession !!

nancy said...

Anyone who harms a child in any way shape or form, at the end of the day deserves what's coming to them. Yes, they may have had a terrible life themselves with neglectful and uncaring parents and whilst that should be taken into account,like the animal kingdom, we are born with instincts that tell us children should be protected until they are of an age when they are able to care for themselves. This can be seen in the way that animals protect their young. Of course, there are always exceptions - people who are mentally ill or retarded, but there was no evidence of this in Shannon's case. There are many loving parents who have a low IQ and would never harm their children, so this can in no way excuse how they treated poor Shannon, who will be suffering, as Viv pointed out, terrible things right now and who knows when she will be completely over her traumtic imprisonment.

In my opinion the Judge was very lenient, but of course he is in a better position to weigh things up than we who just read about it. In my opinion the sentence won't deter others bent on trying to gain the fame the McCanns have.

Children must always come first and society, especially the law, must be seen to be protecting them up to the hilt.

hope4truth said...

Morning All

I feel the time has come now for the fund to be fully investigated. They should be due an audit it is a lmited company and the books need looking at....

Something is not right that much is obvious just looking at the McCanns there is not a normal emotion between them. Everything that comes out of their mouths is all about them hardly a word for Madeleine and if they really believe she is missing the fact they have never helped find her in any way shape of form either means they know where she is or are glad to see the back of her.

They dont need a fund anymore it was to find Madeleine and support them well Gerry is now back at work and his backer is paying all his legal fees and they have never used the money to search for Madeleine so where has all the money gone...

Unfortunatly for them firms like M3 will strive to save their own backs and take cash from the highest bidder so an investigation should not take too long...

Whoever is protecting them must be banging their head against a brick wall for getting involed every time they speak laugh or blog it is obvious they are lying..

As for the band of happy child neglecting fans they have brought along to bully for them we are all laughing at them now and have been for a long time..

In the begining they may have frightend a few people away but they have encouraged most of us to stick around and as Viv's post coppied from the 3As show people want to draw them into the discusion (more than likely to keep a record of who said what so when this does break if the bloggers are identified as friends and family or worse paid thugs they can show the world just how much the McCanns needed spin)....

We already know RP intimidates her own posters into posting and tells them what to do and say even which rainbow to use. Why would she need to do this if people are genuine in their belief the McCann's are the victims here?

Back on the DX and now we are told we are boring for mentioning the neglect I do wonder if this is spin so we all go down the route of believeing they were neglected?

A poster on Jan's does not believe they were neglected she thinks that one adult per night had them all in a room together (and the PJ asked this question) what she say's makes sense if something happend to Madeleine they needed to create an oportunity for an abduction to take place so came up with a plan???

So maybe with us screaming neglect we have been playing into their hands?

There is so much wrong with this and if the children were not neglected I guess it makes them look even more guilty as why say they were?

xxx

nancy said...

Hope -

The McCanns have had an amazing amount of help with funding to find Madeleine, from numerous people out there including Brian Kennedy, seemingly the main benefactor. And what have they done with all this money? They certainly have been badly advised in their choice of so called child detectives and have squandered money on travel around the globe too. If the money was meant to find Madeleine, it's been a travesty for Justice for her.

As you say, it is high time the balance sheets were produced!

I still tend to believe that the children were drugged; that Madeleine came off worse than the twins and didn't come out of what can be described as a coma or drug induced sleep into oblivion. (Remember Kate kept listening to see if the twins were still breathing properly). Then, as they say, Maddie was abducted, but not by a predator - that would just not have been possible bearing in mind not only the height and width of the window, the fact that the shutters were down, and also how could a child of 4 be hauled through it without waking up.

The evidence the dogs found could have been the residue of what happened when Madeleine was being induced to wake up by whatever means doctors would adopt in those circumstances after a child had ingested an overdose of medication.

Again - why did Kate say "they've taken her - rather than "they've taken Madeleine", which to me indicates the tapas pals knew exactly who had been taken.

Off for the day now, be back later.

Have a good day everyone.

Wizard said...

Hi All, I thougt this picture said it all - courtesy of Roastd Arizona 3A's.

link

hope4truth said...

Wizard

It does thanks for posting it...

xxx

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

"Shannon had been left "disturbed and traumatised and frightened" and would need to undergo periods of psychotherapy and specialist "therapeutic interventions" over a long period to help her to recover.

"She appeared to relive her experiences and she often complains of having nightmares where she is being tied up."

Above states how Shannon has been affected by her abduction. Yet the mother and father of the then 3-year old child who mysteriously disappeared claim she was abducted by a gang of professional paedophiles and believe that she can found alive and WELL!


Di,

Exactly!


'If it had not been for the McCanns leaving their children home alone night after night and one going missing, we would never have heard of Karen Matthews.'

hope4truth said...

Zodiac

It is comments like that from Team McCann that show them for the liars they are. I thought Dr's were supposed to be inteligent?

Clearly not they cant get their lines right (They've taken her)and then come out with trash like that...

Do you know as sad as it is I think they are less evil if they know she is dead (depending on how she died) because if there is a chance she is alive the have shown over and over again how only they matter and they are heartless people...

xxx

nancy said...

Hi Zodiac - how right you are!

Lawyers never fail to amaze me with what they come out with in defence of their clients. The lawyer for the revolting Donovan said:

"Shannon was treated with a degree of respect and allowed to have her own space" -

Treated with respect being tethered like an animal, and allowed her own space under the divan of course!

I suppose they are only doing their job but at what cost to true justice I wonder.

Di said...

Hi All

Viv

Thanks for posting Freeport & Socrates. I had missed that one.

Interesting that again UK held back on the rogatory letters.

Wizard

Yes that picture certainly does say it all. A bunch of idiots the lot of them. IMO

Zodiac said...

I remember nearly 25 years ago lying in hospital being pregnant with my first child. I was hospitalised for most of the pregnancy. For the first trimester I was in a gynaecological ward of the local General Hospital. Whilst dosing late on a Saturday afternoon I heard what seemed like a child screaming I quickly realised that it was a child screaming. There was quietness throughout the ward; a numbness all that could be heard was this distressed child. I won't out of respect for the child who would now be an adult say what I heard but to this day I could still remember the fear that child must have been in and the pain and suffering that little girl must have experienced. I asked a nurse what had happened it was a little girl (9 I think) that had been attacked by a man and had been taken to the hospital for medical care. It was all over the news. How anyone who claims that their child has been snatched to order by a gang of paedophiles can publicly state that they believe their child could be WELL is beyond belief, IMO!

Zodiac said...

Hi Dylan

Just read the other thread from last night. Hope you and Chilli are well and friends again.

Lia x

BBFN

viv said...

Hiya BT

Yes I do think Gerry did a Shipman and sedated his kids, but not with a view to killing them. Dead people look very different to live healthy people. Smith described a child that looked OK apart from she appeared to be "deeply asleep". This is not just one man that is saying it was Maddie and Gerry, it is his whole family. If you think about this scenario, the only serious risk Gerry had to take was carrying her through the streets and Smith himself says at first it did not really register because it seems like a fairly normal thing for a holiday maker to do. Jane Tanner's INITIAL description was exactly the same, ie one of Gerry but it changed over time to become very different to Gerry, I would submit the reasons for that are very obvious.

I have been looking at this case, in depth, for a very long time and it is the only thing that fits with the legal procedures that have taken place and all the evidence that we have. I accept those blood splats look very much like the scene of a death but I do not think they were. I have tried to do what judges do and filter out the "best evidence" that is what can seriously be relied upon as being accurate. I think BK knows exactly where Maddie is.


So far as Matthews is concerned, I was absolutely determined that I was not going to have the likes of 2345 pronouncing her guilty when no police investigation or facts against her had come to light. Yes, she was very suspicious but so were Kate and Gerry McCann but I never commented on either until it was clear the police thought they were too. If you just pick on someone and start saying things like that, it is libel!


xx

nancy said...

Wizard =

Just looked at the link you gave. Thanks for that.

It certainly does say it all, and won't that lot of child neglecter supporters look stupid when the whole truth and nothing but the truth comes out!

Zodiac said...

'Kate even joked that Madeleine is probably giving her kidnapper a taste of her forceful character.

She said: "Madeleine is such a sociable child, so funny and engaging."

"She has a lot of personality. Her name actually means 'tower of strength'.

"She hated it when we called her Maddie. She'd say 'My name is Madeleine' with an indignant look.

"I bet she's giving whoever she's with her tuppence worth."

Kate Healy, Madeleine's mother in Mirror, August 13th, 2007'


The above quote of the day from the Joana Morais Blog.


'She hated it when we called her Maddie. She'd say 'My name is Madeleine' with an indignant look.'

Thought you did not call her Maddie. Hmmm Wizard I think your definition of fragile on the other thread could be spot on!

Di said...

Hi Viv

Quote

I think BK knows exactly where Maddie is.

Do you think Maddie is alive or sadly met her demise?

I have to say, I have never understood why anyone would pledge their life to funding the McCanns, especially as he supposedly did not know them prior to Madeleine going missing.

Very odd and suspicious indeed.

viv said...

Di

Thanks for posting Freeport & Socrates. I had missed that one.

Interesting that again UK held back on the rogatory letters.


It is interesting Di and it would seem those that have vast sums of money at their disposal can influence governments. Maybe I do need to back down on saying there are "no government conspiracy theories". It would seem quite possible that there are!

It is not just the British that have stalled on this case though, it is the Portuguese too! They sacked Goncalo Amaral who was extremely interested in the Smith sighting and did not follow it up. Their instructional judge refused to allow consent for tapped phone records to be used in evidence. There is a stink both sides of the waters!

xx

hope4truth said...

Kate refusing to answer any questions says it all...

Especialy when a paid supporter says she has nothing to hide and will and her Mum is proud of her for standing her corner? Surley Mrs Healy she should be standing Madeleines corner the victim deserves a lot more from your family she was only 3 for gods sake she cant protect herself!!!

"Kate will answer every question put to her – she has nothing to hide."

Justine McGuinness - 06 September 2007

"I spoke to Kate at about, errm... half eleven, eleven to half past last night."

"What did she say to you?"

"Errm... she just told me that she was alright, errm... and she sounded quite strong. Errm... she had fought her corner in her interview with the police yesterday, errm... and I think, errm... I felt quite proud that she'd been able to do this knowing how distraught she is at Madeleine's disappearance... "

Susan Healy - 08 September 2007

Di said...

Hi Viv

Would phone records normally be admissible in a Portuguese court?

J J said...

Why would anyone care about Madeleine?

She was only three years old , with no political or financial clout.

Therefor the only people I would expect to fight her corner, tooth and nail, would be her parents.

Did I miss something?

viv said...

Would phone records normally be admissible in a Portuguese court?

yes!

I need to read back on this blog to refresh my memory but I think the issue was the PJ had tapped the phones etc without prior authority of the judge. That was clearly an error. The Instructional Judge Frias refused to allow them to make that evidence admissible and quite clearly it would be highly relevant evidence. So the prosecutor appealed to a higher court in Portugal, not sure what it is called but clearly like our Court of Appeal. He got refused there too. There were sound legal arguments and past precedent put forward that even when a tap has been done without prior consent it can still be used as relevant and probative evidence but the Judges in Portugal said it would interfere with the McCanns human right to privacy. This is under Art 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights which very clearly states that right can be overriden by the State to investigate and prosecute crime. I was utterly dismayed at the time that such relevant evidence was being withheld and I believe in normal circumstances in both UK and Portugal that evidence would most definitely have been used. It would clearly provide the key to this whole case. If Gerry was on the blower to all and sundry as he must have been how helpful to hear what he had to say!

viv said...

JJ, It is extremely sad but it would seem that multi million pound deals and protecting reputations of politicians are considered far more important than what happened to one little girl. I vote we continue to co-operate with 3 As and find out just what is going on, but NOT by directly harassing the McCanns and writing some cock and bull little book that purports to be the facts!


xx

J J said...

Viv

I wouldn't dream of writing to the McCanns.
I wouldn't waste the ink!

viv said...

Neither would I JJ, they are not going to deliver up the answers, we need to continue to show them, what they do not get is believed!

We need to continue to stop them from seeking to convince the public they are nice innocent parents so they can cash in and live life happily ever after.

xx

Wizard said...

Hi All,

Just been watching the football MU vs. Tottenham I am a closet Tottenham supporter as I live in Arsenal territory. MU is running rings around them and I will be biting my nails down if I watch much more of it.

Yesterday we were talking about heroin chic, could it be as simple as this. Madeleine takes the recreational drugs meant for T9 to party with that night and dies or is comatose. Gerry takes M down to the beach and is seen doing this by the Smiths with the abduction plan being hatched prior to this. Although M’s demise was accidental a post-mortem would show what had happened and in the ensuing panic the Mc’s decided to hide the body and launch the news that she had been taken by someone.

The thing wrong with this is if something like this happened you would be very emotional because your daughter had died and it was your fault. Therefore, could the Mc’s act in the way they subsequently did? Are they really this ruthless?

Apoligies for yet another theory.

viv said...

Do you think Maddie is alive or sadly met her demise?

I think it is very difficult to say but IMO,now, more than likely she is alive. Many people used to think that at some stage, just like a rabbit out of a hat, the McCanns would produce Maddie, I do not think they were so daft to think that but only if they feel they have to, they do not actually want her, they want to save their own miserable necks. Think about Gerry's recent visit to Portugal and what he had to say!

Viv xx

hope4truth said...

Viv

I think the public are well aware that they are lying and very Odd people...

Everytime they speak or do another odd thing (like putting a video out of her a year younger than when she went missing)people are taken aback at how strange they are...

Uncaring and they know are two of the phrases I have heard this week along with the usual comments...

xxx

hope4truth said...

Wizard

Unless they know she is somewhere safe and well I would say they are very heartless...

The pictures at the top of this page convince me they dont give a damn it would have been her 4th Birthday and they seriously look like they have won the lottery...

What parent who knew their child was dead or thought they were in the hands of a peadophile ring could look that happy a few days later let alone on such an emotional day?

xxx

Di said...

I have always thought GB got involved with this case thinking it would further his career.

I am pretty sure he must regret it now.

Is the reward money still there? Clarence thinks so, thinks!!

How come all the famous backers have suddenly gone very quiet. What happened to the famous sportsman heading the Christmas appeal.

If Madeleine suddenly turns up safe & well there is going to have to be alot of explaining.

viv said...

Hiya Hope

It is the most bizarre conduct and publicity campaign I have ever seen, given it involves a couple who clearly do not give two hoots what happened to their little girl. It is a campaign funded and organised by Brian Kennedy.

I do believe Maddie was alive when she was handed over but we do not know what happened to her from then on I just hope for the best!

Di said...

Hi Viv

So are you saying that everything GA & the PJ thought was incorrect?

What about Keela & Eddie they have 100% track record.

viv said...

Di, I do not actually believe this is what the PJ thought, or indeed the British authorities, including those who specifically investigate child sexual abuse. I believe they were looking at both scenarios and with both of them involving Kate and Gerry McCann.

The dogs do have a 100% accuracy record and they accurately found old blood in that apartment, the McCanns clothes etc. I have read in depth on them also and they are an investigative tool to locate bodies, forensic evidence etc, not evidence in themselves, it would always need corroboration and that is what is clearly missing!

viv said...

Di, If Maddie turns up safe and well and you will know I have concerns about that, apart from the possibility of sexual abuse, imagine the terrible trauma of her waking up with a stranger and no family. She would not be safe and well IMO.

But if she does, we know where the McCanns are going and it will not be an 8 year sentence either!

xx

Di said...

Viv

I have always believed Madeleine died during her holiday, now you are saying you think she could be alive. I will have to get my head around this one so please be patient with me.

GB saying we were not ready to hear the truth yet, or words to that effect.

Are we talking about chipping all children? Ironside thinks so.

Another theory on 3A's is Madeleine was burried during G & K's visit to see the Pope and he gave them the ultimate blessing.

If she is alive then who is she with, and WHY?

Di said...

Viv

Sorry had not seen your reply

Buried sorry for spelling.

viv said...

Di do not worry about the spelling this is a blog where I make mistakes myself, not a finely presented thesis. I used to be like a computer for spelling but alas, age! Anyway it gives them something to talk about and makes me aware of how they hang on our every word:-)))

I want opinions on here not finely presented pieces with no mistakes!

viv said...

Di, I would just like to clarify, I do not think this was a politically motivated piece of behaviour, I think it was motivated by the McCanns not wanting Maddie and how could they make some big bucks from that. I thought that from day one, I just worked it out a bit better now. But I do think it is possible that someone who may well be directly involved used his power and his money with politicians to orchestrate a cover up!

Di said...

Another thought has just come to mind..

Someone said they overheard Gerry on his mobile after Maddie disappeared saying "please don't hurt her" or similar.

Was this the same evening can anyone remember?

Was it followed up by the PJ?

viv said...

BK pulled his wealthy friends in to help the distraught McCanns, where are they now!!!

viv said...

Di, have to jump in shower and pop out for a bit but will BBL and would like to carry on chatting with you about this !

xx

Di said...

Enjoy your evening Viv.

Will look back in later.

xx

dylan said...

Hi all,

Thank you Zodiac, Chilli is fine and back to his old self - ie., demanding his wet food pouches, (rather loudly) and stalking around the place like he owns the joint! Every now and then he goes to lick his wounds and then stops for a moment as if he knows something is missing!! Bless!

I have just been catching up with 3as from the link you posted - thanks Viv. It's the topic about the shutters being Gemmied and has provided some very interesting ideas plus some old quotes that I'd forgotten about. Kezza seems to be doing his or her best to decry everything that is evidence of the McCanns having been economical with the truth and I'm not sure what Sabot's agenda is at all!

I have to say that I too, sadly, think that Madeleine died on the night of 3/5. Kezza says that the FSS results showed nothing that incriminated the McCanns at all but as I remember, before the famous U-turn, the results were quoted as "indicative" of Madeleine no longer being alive.
I don't recall who asked, but somebody on the 3as wondered if it were possible that the smell of death that Eddy marked could merely have been tranferance from the cadavers that Kate had been involved with through the course of her job. I would say that this is entirely possible if this were in isolation itself. However, it doesn't explain why Keela marked blood in the same places as Eddy marked the scent, neither does it explain why the cadaver odour was found in such an odd scattering of places and objects, the pattern of which, I wouldn't expect to have occurred by transferance. I have a problem as to how to explain what I mean by this, but I think that if Kate had been involved, then the odour has been left in those places that she would have naturally gone to for comfort: Cuddle cat, the bible and then there is selective clothing (why only on one pair of trousers?) - Packed in a case together, all clothes would have been contaminated,the child's T shirt. From then on there is the key fob and car and the hair in the wheel well. It looks to me like a trail! Obviously I am by no means an expert and as to the DNA markers, I'll wait for Docmac to clarify when he returns.

Either way, involved or not, I find both scenarios astonishing. I cannot quite believe that a couple who knew that their child had died, could carry on the abduction facade for so long. Someone would eventually have to break. Alternatively, as Hope puts it so well, if she were abducted, why have the McCanns hindered the investigation so much, refused to do as they have been advised by professionals and told a plethora of lies right from the outset?

Zodiac made an excellent point too, if it weren't for the McCanns, poor Shannon would still be an anonymous child, and even though living in a disadvantaged family, would never have been subjected to the horrors that she was.

xx

hope4truth said...

Dyl

so pleased chilli is doing well...

I think Shannon has been to hell and back but with that creep Meehan living in the same house as her and her siblings I think they have all had a lucky escape...

Hopefuly someone will give Shannon the love and protection she deserves and she can over come the nightmares...

The police bought her a kitten diddnt they something to love her and be loved by her...

I dont know much about her Dad but know her brother lives with him I do hope if safe she is in contact with her family it is such an important unit...

xxx

nancy said...

Hi Dylan,

Nice to see you!

Clarisa on the 3A's thread - WHY DID THE MCCANNS SAY THE SHUTTERS WERE SMASHED AND BROKEN which you mention above made a very full and explanatory post.

She pointed out that if the patio door was open, as Kate said, why would the so called abductor go to the trouble of trying to escape via the window. What a load of rubbish people are expected to believe!

Glad Chilli (cute name) is getting back to normal - if he's eating then that's half way there!


Nx

dylan said...

Hi Hope and Di!

Thanks for your good wishes about Chilli! Di, if I had my way, he would have been Basil but the kids hated that name ;-) Also, he hasn't stopped eating today so there's not much wrong with him :-)

Hope, you took the words right out of my mouth about Meehan and the lucky escape, I just couldn't tack it onto the end of my post as it would have been out of place. I hope she still has some of her family that she can visit safely too. Animals are great for children. They teach them how to love and care for something but at the same time, bring them such joy!

As for the shutters: well, the door was locked, open, locked and then open because of the risk of fire. It is a load of hogwash and I'm sure ICTOAN would tell anybody that an unlocked door doesn't guarantee an escape for children. It's not the flames that kill, mostly, it's the smoke. You can't see where you are going when a room is full of smoke. It is disorienting. I'm not sure that even as an adult, I would know to keep close to the floor etc in my panic, and anyway, how was Maddie supposed to get the twins out in that case? She would have had to have lifted them from their cots and carried them out! The McCanns say one thing, realise that it doesn't add up or has been proven untrue and then change their tune as readily as a pub singer!

xx

dylan said...

Nancy, forgive me, I'm such a dimwit! I meant to address you and Hope and not 'Di and Hope' - lol!

Di, not that I didn't want to say hi to you :-)

I'll go now as I'm digging myself a deeper hole ;-)

BBL xx

viv said...

Hi all back now!

Dilly you really do miss Doc, don't you!

I gather he is busy on another project writing a book. I wonder if it is about all the manipulation in the McCann case which was obviously his favourite topic and a very relevant one too IMO. That would make an interesting read:-)))

xxxxxxxxx

viv said...

Hiya Nancy

According to Jill Renwick, what the McCanns were saying was the abductor jemmied the window and shutter to get in and then escaped with Maddie through the door.

Of course Mark Warner promptly responded to those claims in the press which Gerry had been so busy putting out and pointed out there was no damage to the shutters, ie. there was no break in.

So then Gerry said ah but we left the door open.

You just could not make this stuff up unless you were trying to write a Comedy of Errors!

xxx

viv said...

Mum21 said...

viv said...
BK pulled his wealthy friends in to help the distraught McCanns, where are they now!!!

Saturday, 24 January 2009 19:29:00 o'clock GMT

Spiv...why do you always ask a question and then finish with an exclamation mark?
If you want an answer to your more than stupid question...ask BK
24 January 2009 20:48

I think that is a matter for the Police, Bum, but thanks for your response, it was entirely predicable. Are you going to start threatening me again now? Or are you just going to say I am mad again!

Oh how I tremble:-)))))

viv said...

Sorry Bum, I did not read your post immediatley preceding that one and think it is right I should record. Just so that we can be clear on what is upsetting you. BK and me posting on 3 As. Thanks for that!

You know if you keep being so precise about when I take a shower, go out, post on 3 As, post on this blog etc people could be forgiven for thinking you are stalking me:-))))

Do you actually have a life?


xx

viv said...

whoops forgot the post!!

Mum21 said...

Viv said..

Now suck on that Kezza and Sabot, who are you? His private secretaries? does he let you have a lie in because you have been on late night duty? =)) =)) =))

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=27940&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=90

(a thread to entice the pros on and they arrived:-)))))

Saturday, 24 January 2009 04:59:00 o'clock GMT

----------------------------------

Ummmmmm Viv, since when did two Pros posting = entice the pros on and they arrived?
10 pages of rabid antis and just 2 pros = entice the rude and irrational antis and the arrived.

kezza114 was just posting her opinion, and in a very polite manner. He/she did not deserve the brutal attack you and your sick friends gave him/her.
But then, thats your trademark Viv...if they don't agree with your opinions...beat them to pulp.

PS. How was the shower and the popping out to the 3A's? Of course you would need the shower beforig meeting up with your new oh, so cosy friend, Bren.
24 January 2009 20:43

viv said...

Oh so it is the threats and character assassination route then! I asked you to tell me where I had ever said that I was a solicitor, I never did get an answer, what a pathetic crew!



A Friend of the McCanns said...

Viv you a narcissistic liar. You have no idea who the McCanns are in contact with, it has nothing at all to do with you. Who do you think you are? What is this to do with anything anyway?

Let me assure you that Kate and Gerry have the full backing of all their previous supporters and a lot of new ones too.

Rarely in life does one come someone as plain horrible as you, thank goodness for that!

For general information, this woman Viv AKA Felicity AKA Flip, is NOT a solicitor and has never been a solicitor, her credentials do not check out. Please don't get taken in any further with her lies.

We have no idea what this woman is doing or why she is doing it, it just seems to be out of spite, jealousy and malice.

We may not know why this woman has chosen to be so malevolent, but what we do know is that she will not be doing it for much longer.

Good Evening to you and thank you to all on this blog and the lovely forum, your efforts are very much appreciated.
24 January 2009 21:36

hope4truth said...

Viv

Have you noticed how the pros dont want anyone to become too close on any of the blogs?

Troll (oh I miss him) was always telling me that I think you are my friends but people are not who they say they are...

And now you are worrying them by becoming too close to Bren???

Friendship comes in many forms and people who seek to destroy it are lonely bitter people...

xxx

hope4truth said...

"Let me assure you that Kate and Gerry have the full backing of all their previous supporters and a lot of new ones too."

What a bloody shame that Madeleine has the full backing of no one who is related to her or friends of the McCanns...

A 3 year old child is missing possibly dead and what do her parents do? They laugh and laugh then her Mother her very own Mother refuses point blank to answer a single question for her daughter and Madeleines Grandmother is proud her daughter stood her corner???

With friends and family like the McCanns have the victim Madeleine does not stand a chance...

Zodiac said...

Dylan,

'Zodiac made an excellent point too, if it weren't for the McCanns, poor Shannon would still be an anonymous child,'


I think it was Di who posted the above. I just replied to her regarding her comment. Glad Chilli is doing well.

BBFN

PS. If (and I don't believe it) M was abducted like little Shannon then the parents are still heartless barstewards IMO! She has been missing for nearly 2 years.

Di said...

Hi Dyl

Glad Chilli is doing well.

Off now to take in and digest some interesting points.

See you tomorrow.

x

viv said...

Hiya Hope

It is obviously needling them that I am friends with Bren, of course I am and it will continue that way. We are both on the same side and she has a much wider audience than I do!

Hope I am very clear who my real friends are, and you are definitely one of them, one who has always been appalled at the McCanns conduct and never had an agenda to pursue other than the truth and Justice for Little Maddie! Mind you, you did send me a bit wobbly when you had a chat with Supertroll -)))) but that again is in the search for the truth I think and what drives these people!


xxxxxxxxxx

viv said...

Sorry guys I am going to have to log out again with Bum, I need some fags but wont be long:-)))

Make sure you get that on your stalker blog Bum, I will try and post some more helpful hints for you!!

hope4truth said...

Viv

I had to have a chat with ST there was something not right about him (and I always knew he was a he) not completly sure but he did not seem comfortable in a lot he said. I know he said nice things about me as he wanted me to think he liked me (yeah as if I care if people like me or not) but there was something???

Maybe he really belived that she was taken but although he was not nice I dont think that was his personality... Either he was paid and did not like the job or was a man of God worrying about upseting he who see's all???

I have to look at both sides as well as normaly I would be as worried for the parents as the missing child and wondering how on earth they could cope... I tried to belive it but then they started talking and like the step father who murdered his step daughter and ran out of a news confrence I could not belive them either..

xxx

viv said...

Hope thanks for that, I think you could be a right, he may well be a "man of god" and he is back posting on their blog again now. The seriously stalkerish behaviour is back as well but just as much by Mum21!

Many people with real problems and an obsessive personality turn to God!

In ST's case, I think it is a real illness rather than being in any way involved, he gets used. He was certainly a stalkerish nuisance on this blog and caused it to become members only!

xxx

hope4truth said...

Viv

The night of the most discusting evil and sick (I dont even think the word porn is strong enough for it) was un real...

They say a child is in the hands of peadophiles and then print that sick stuff to try and shut people up here (once again their sick tactics do not respect Madeline)but show how evil they can be...

If she is still alive she will be in a far worse state than poor Shannon for one she wont be able to leave the place she is in....

I still cant bring myself to belive that whatever happend to her was planed before the holiday they cant be that evil?

xxx

viv said...

Hiya Hope

I am not easily shocked, I have been working in the law all my life, family and criminal law. But I can honestly say that night really shocked me. It was a glimpse into the mind of an extremely sick and perverted person who glorifies and fantasises about the most terrible wife and child abuse far beyond anything I could ever imagine. You would just have to be extremely sick to thing of such things.. I will never forget it.

It is not like me to rush off to the police but that is precisely what I did. They told me it would be passed on to the appropriate authorities and I had a lengthy chat about my blog and the tactics. When I said to one of the officers but these people say they are innocent, he smirked "oh are they".

There are clear indications to me that this was planned and I find it hard to believe that Gerry went abroad with the plan to murder her but I have certainly entertained that. What I am now suggesting makes a lot more sense.

I am not going to try and list them all, but

Fiona Payne wants to stress Kate had a dread about going on that holiday

Gerry had the lawyers and fund set up with lightning speed.

Russ OB talks what I would submit are a load of lies about printing off 6 x 4 pictures that very night of a picture that he acknowledges was of Maddie from several weeks previously. As I have mentioned on a thread devoted to that, this is complete nonsense. If you wanted to hurriedly print off pics from Kate's camera of Maddie, why would you not use the normal size paper that is in a printer, large A4, that would have been far more helpful to the police. More to the point why does he struggle to explain why there were no pictures of that actual holiday off the camera available to the police. We are expected to believe he went all through those, discard them and by some miraculous chance found a far better one still on Kate's phone memory. I just have to conclude those pictures were taken with them. There clearly was one very good picture of Maddie from that holiday on that camera, the tennis balls pic, why did they not use that at the time? A man hired by Mark Warner whose names escapes me says he undertook the delicate task of going through that film with the McCanns and I would submit that is when we got the tennis balls pic. We still did not get this faked photoshop pic of Maddie by the pool. Gerry had to go home on about 20 May to prepare that one! I am sorry Hope, I know you are a lovely person and do not want to think the worst but it really is that bad!

Take a look at that picture of Maddie that I would say he cynically took normal photo sized copies of with him to PDL. She is done up in her football outfit. What was one of his big stunts to publicise this case, at the football stadium? The man is a cynical and wicked fake and he will not sue me for saying so!

viv said...

In actual fact I have just recalled there is some discussion in the statements as to whether it was Jane TAnner who took the tennis balls pic, so that would mean there are no pics at all of Maddie taken on that holiday.

Again, I think that speaks for itself!

viv said...

Ah the name just came back to me, Alex Woolfall, he wrote in The Times Kate told him she was sure Maddie has just wandered off and yet they were telling everyone they were sure she had been abducted. See the first interview to the BBC on this blog, where Kate very nervously tries to emphatically state they both knew that right away. She is a hopeless liar and so is he!

Kate would tell a psychologist or a media man that when he is trying to comfort and reason with her, because that would have been such a normal thing to assume! But when she is on TV with Gerry she has to say exactly what he tells her to say, we knew right away Maddie had been abducted, no doubts at all about that. She did know Maddie had been abducted, by her own husband!

hope4truth said...

Hi Viv

If it was pre planned (and if they had a brain between them) surely they would not have put her in the Creche???

They would have made a big show of being with her in the day. Like Gerry dancing with a child (Madeleine?) in front of the CCTV cameras... Been seen as the loving parents in places with cameras taken lots of pictures of the happy family together to show the world...

Afterwards they would have had time to prepare the grief distress and story they would spin...

That is why I think there was an accident (over sedation) or something worse than an accident and they had to improvise...

Still things did get set up quickly and Gerry's Brother quiting his job to become a director of a fund that may have shut after a few days as she could have been found (that is very odd) then most of this has been...

I think going to the police was the only thing that could be done after that filth was posted a very twisted person would post something so vile...

If Madeleine is alive and well (and unhurt) it would be wonderful but how it would be explained would be another load of spin I just pray someone looks after Madeleine while the spin goes on she will be terified...

xxx

viv said...

Hiya Hope

If they had been loving and attentive parents clearly Maddie could not have been abducted. It has been clear to me throughout from some of the quite extraordinary admissions they are prepared to tell the police and go on tv to talk about that they actually use their own negligence towards child care to perpetuate the idea some predator took Maddie. That is the thinking behind all these admissions including Kate slyly pointing out that apparently Maddie told her that very morning, where were you mummy, we were crying. Now what sort of parents would actually want to flag up what a couple of rotten bastards they are? A couple of brazen liars who do not want to get a life sentence!


Very good post on 3 As where Clarence is avoiding the issue as to whether the door was locked or unlocked, he knows what this couple did and I hope he rots in hell! He is not a lawyer but likes to think he is playing a clever lawyer's game of defending his clients! You know just mention the good bits that help your client and skirt over the rest!


Mr Mitchell made his comments when questioned by a 'Prime Time' team in a report on the disappearance to be screened tomorrow. "There was no evidence of a break-in," said Mr Mitchell.

"I'm not going into the detail, but I can say that Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that somebody got into the apartment and took Madeleine out the window as their means of escape, and to do that they did not necessarily have to tamper with anything. They got out of the window fairly easily."

Of the criticism that the McCanns left their children by themselves on four evenings while they went for dinner, Mr Mitchell said there was a cultural difference between Britain and Portugal.

"It is a British approach to get your children washed, bathed and in bed early in the evening if you can so you can have something of the evening to yourself. That is the British way of doing things. It doesn't mean it's wrong. It doesn't mean it's right," he said.

"Nobody feels more guilty than Gerry and Kate over the decision they took jointly to leave their children in that position that night. And they will never forgive themselves. They've said this often.

"Nobody feels more guilty than they that Madeleine was alone when she was taken. However, they felt they had a perfectly proper system of checking (her in place)."

Oh dear. Seems the King Pro-McCann has conceded there was no evidence of a break in. The abductor simply teleported into the apartment, snatched M then teleported out right in front of Tanner.

Link to program http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1025/primetime.html

viv said...

teleported is the right word, but we live in the real world, not Clarence's!

viv said...

More threats on behalf of "Brian", let us have them all recorded, given I know that particular blog like to delete when they know they have gone too far. No one is above the law, no matter how much cash you have! Idiots who just like to abuse and threaten may get their come uppance too!

===========

A Friend of the McCanns said...

Di said...
Hi Viv

Quote

I think BK knows exactly where Maddie is.

Do you think Maddie is alive or sadly met her demise?

I have to say, I have never understood why anyone would pledge their life to funding the McCanns, especially as he supposedly did not know them prior to Madeleine going missing.

Very odd and suspicious indeed.

Saturday, 24 January 2009 17:53:00 o'clock GMT


I will personally see that Brian views the above comments. Enough is enough.
24 January 2009 23:33

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Blog Archive

* ▼ 2008 (95)
o ▼ December (2)
+ So Goncalo Amaral Hass 'Supposed' To Have Joined t...
+ Kate and Gerry's Christmas appeal
o ► July (1)
+ Madeleine McCann Case To Be Archived?
o ► June (2)
+ FBI Agent Analyzes McCann Case
+ The Rot Sets In As 'Vile' Starts Blocking Posters ...
o ► May (6)
+ Gerry Denies Receiving Mystery Texts
+ 60 Witnesses That "DID NOT" See Anything! (The Lat...
+ DRAMATIC NEW PHOTO AND VIDEO EVIDENCE FROM THE NOT...
+ McCanns In Legal Boost
+ ONE YEAR ON - LIGHTING MADELEINE'S WAY HOME
+ Madeleine anniversary: McCanns tell of regrets in ...
o ► April (30)
+ Madeleine McCann left alone as 'last minute decisi...
+ Madeleine McCann's exhausted mother has thought of...
+ I feel desperately for Kate McCann - her life has ...
+ Madeleine: 'We made a mistake and we would never l...
+ Service of hope announced
+ Kate: We all checked kids
+ Leaks, smears ... now "plane" lies
+ A parent's worst nightmare: Are child abductions o...
+ MCCANNS FACE NEW CHARGE, EXCLUSIVE SCANDAL OF PLAN...
+ Madeleine special investigation: The damning case ...
+ After the storm - a scarred town tries to forget
+ Portuguese police accuse McCanns' spokesman Claren...
+ Madeleine McCann mystery will be solved, say polic...
+ What happened on the day Madeleine disappeared?
+ Meredith or Madeleine: it's trial by media
+ Brits love to torture a 'bad mother'
+ Why Portugal is a haven for paedophiles - the dist...
+ Portuguese police leaks are 'shameless smears' to ...
+ Lies, beatings, secret trials: the dark side of po...
+ Madeleine McCann Timeline: The Case So Far
+ McCanns ponder return to Praia da Luz
+ The Shannon mystery: Police check tape of fake kid...
+ Madeleine McCann - Remember Me - Justice For Paedo...
+ There Are No More Perfect Parents Than There Are O...
+ Two more held in Shannon Matthews case
+ British police ready to question 'Tapas Seven' ove...
+ Madeleine McCann's parents to learn of case agains...
+ Too serene for sympathy
+ How the McCann case highlights our true attitude t...
o ► March (32)
+ How has the Madeleine McCann case affected us?
+ ‘Tapas Nine’ to face three days of police intervie...
+ Kate and Gerry McCann: Beyond the smears
+ Missing Children Statistics
+ Madeleine McCann's parents want police to investig...
+ Every child matters
+ Misplaced trust led to Madeleine's betrayal
+ Robert Murat close to being cleared over Madeleine...
+ Missing children who turned up alive
o ► February (19)
o ► January (3)

Contributors

* Tinkerbell43
* christabel
* Mum21
* Rosiepops

hope4truth said...

Viv

It was comments like this that really got my back up...

"It is a British approach to get your children washed, bathed and in bed early in the evening if you can so you can have something of the evening to yourself. That is the British way of doing things. It doesn't mean it's wrong. It doesn't mean it's right," he said.


It is not the British way at all it is the selfish parent way but I dont know of one person who has ever dont this???

I have stayed all over the world and have never heard of children being left home alone (if they were no one was talking about it) and if anyone was alone they used the babysiting service (I never trusted them so the girls went where we did)...

Maybe one day we will know where this lovley little girl is and what happend it is tragic..

xxx

viv said...

Hiya Hope

Well I have stayed all over the world too and have never seen any parents behaving like this group of doctors.


Neither do I forget the mind numbing campaign on the Daily Express to tell us they were operating their own listening service as advocated by Martin Warner. But of course there was no such service at this resort!

Every little issue including the sickening campaign against Robert Murat, Malinka, Amaral etc bitterly fought out. Sickening filth written about Robert Murat written by Rosiepops in particular. I do not forget!

hope4truth said...

Presumption of Innocence
The presumption of innocence - being innocent until proven guilty - is a legal right that the accused in criminal trials has in many modern nations. It states that no person shall be considered guilty until finally convicted by a court. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to convince the court that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted; this idea expressed by the Latin legal maxim "In dubio pro reo".

Oh I agree with the above so I wont say the McCanns are guilty but any mother who sits back and refuses to answer questions for a missing child is not fit to have the title Mother!!!

Have a look at the top of this page friend of gerry and kate look how happy they were on her 4th Birthday they thought she was in the hands of a peadophile ring and pure joy on their faces???

Then have a look at the picture of Madeleine with her baby sister what the hell did she ever do that was so wrong she is not even alowed to be the victim???

Friend of the McCanns as long as the first name isnt Madeleine your bloody spin could have cost this poor little girl her life if she was alive when taken...

Kate knew she had been taken so she and the others never bothered to look for her can any of you honestly say if your child were missing you would not bother to search?

Justice for children who have as much right to life as the people who have them!!!!!!!!

hope4truth said...

Viv

Filth written about anyone who wont go along with what they want to spin...

It really is sickening but not as sickening as the way parents have spoken about their own child "we have no reason to belive she has been harmed" "We belive she is in the hands of a peadophile ring" Just what do they think a peadophile is?

Too sad totaly tragic and very very wrong...

viv said...

Yes Hope she did, mummy Kate:


They have taken her, we have let her down, get me a priest

Too right you did Kate and you laughed on her birthday!


No let up for you Madam!

The public demand to know what you refused to tell the police, if you do not like that, tough!


xxx

viv said...

It would seem that following this case is all about not having a mind of your own to think what might have happened to little Maddie, that is very sad, no answers to real questions! I am pretty sick of the lot of them, there are so few that are genuinely concerned for Maddie and the truth!

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=27940&p=829842#p829842

viv said...

But there are those who stick their head above the parapet and honestly look at the truth, rather than accepted dogma:

Post subject: Re: 60 Reasons Book (merged)
New postPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:59 am
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I promised Mr Bennett that I would have a look at the rest of the 30 reasons for him. Some posters thought that my previous 2 lists were the sum total of all the errors I came accross in the 60 reasons wheras I was only up to number 19.

Here are some more:

Quote:
Why, it must be asked, would the McCanns’ friends refer to a ‘Pact’ to keep silent about what they know, when there is an international effort to ‘find Madeleine’? There can only be one rational explanation. Namely, that they share a guilty secret which they wish to hide.


As a quote from M Oldfield further on in the article clearly shows, the agreement that is being refrred to is an agreement not to talk to the Media. They agreed to let the McCanns control the release of information, however you are trying to imbue their statements with sinister overtones here. With regard to your conclusion (only one rational explanation - share a guilty secret etc) i would say there are several other rational explanations (from the McCann and T7 point of view) and they dont all include a presumption of shared guilt.

Quote:
The Portuguese police, it is now clear, was doubtful from the outset about the validity of Jane Tanner’s ’sighting’ - and for very good reason. They refused to use it as the basis for issuing a formal description of the alleged abductor.


On the contrary, the Portuguese Police used Tanners description as the basis for issuing a formal description of the alleged abductor.*

Quote:
Yet, just a few days after Jane Tanner had given her initial, vague description to the police, Gerry McCann insisted on going ahead with a public description of a man who he thought had abducted Madeleine (see Section 13 of our booklet, above). It was a vague description* - and accompanied by a sketch so vague as to be useless. It merely showed an egg-shaped head with some straight hair on the top, and was immediately dubbed ‘egg-man’
.

*Here is Paulo Reis' version of the description the PJ released of the sighting: White male, 35 to 40 years old, 1.70/1.75 meters high, short hair at the front, long hair over the neck, is the description of a suspect, made by several witnesses that saw a man walking around Praia da Luz, the night Madeleine was abducted. The information was released today by Polícia Judiciária (Portuguese CID). (09:10 pm, May 25 2007)
Jane Tanner asked if she could do a photofit of the alleged abductor's face as seen from the side but was told that the software could not accommodate that - it had to be front view. Thats all she could tell them, hence no features.

Quote:
The description was issued against the advice of the Portuguese police who only agreed to release it after a personal intervention from then Chancellor of the Exchequer, now the British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown. This has been confirmed on the record. It has also been confirmed that during the period leading up to Gerry’s description of the alleged abductor, he spoke on the telephone nine times to Gordon Brown.


The Portuguese did not want to release a description/sketch because that is not how they conduct their enquiries.(I have no idea to what extent Gordon Brown was instrumental in getting the Police to agree to bend their rules) I think I have asked elsewhere what you base your claim on re Brown being on the phone 9 times to Gerry?

Quote:
Why would Dr Gerry McCann rely on such a patently fabricated description? A probable answer is . snip


It only seems patently fabricated if your readers are unfamiliar with the details of the case and rely on your mistaken assumptions.

Quote:
Here is a short list of some of these many significant contradictions:
1. Kate was said to have read bedtime stories to the children on the night Madeleine went missing. But in another version it is claimed that Gerry reads the bedtime
This is a significant contradiction? When you refer to "another version" are you referring to different versions in The Media?
I was going to go through your "significant contradictions" all 11 of them but it is pointless as the comment would be the same for each one. You are referring (except for no 2) to differences between Media Reports.
Quote:
how lawyers could help to ‘find Madeleine’ is not clear. The likely purpose of all these lawyers was to defend the Doctors McCann, and possibly some of their ‘Tapas 9? friends, from serious criminal charges.


That much seems obvious

Quote:
If they had done nothing wrong and Madeleine really had been snatched by an abductor, they would surely have been happy to co-operate in full with the Portuguese police and would not have needed any lawyers.


On the other hand, IF the McCanns were being falsely accused of something they didn’t do then I would have thought it entirely reasonable that the hire lawyers.
Quote:
We might note here, briefly, that one of the Portuguese lawyers hired by the McCann, Mr Pinto de Abreu, has been accused on another occasion of proposing that his clients engage in illegal activities.


We might also note here that the Senior Officer in charge of the investigation, before he was removed for behaving unprofessionally, had been accused and is currently being tried for allowing a suspect to be beaten up in custody, to force a confession.

Quote:
The Doctors McCann expressed anxiety when rumours surfaced about the possibility that the Portuguese police might be monitoring their telephone calls and that their e-mails might be intercepted. It must be asked: what innocent parent, genuinely concerned that their child had been abducted, and anxiously awaiting news of a possible sighting of her, would worry about that?


Where did they express this anxiety? Was it via a third hand account in a Media Report by any chance?

Quote:
The Doctors McCcann gave two quite different versions about where Madeleine’s favourite toy, ‘Cuddle Cat’, had been found when Dr Kate McCann entered her apartment at 10.00pm on May 3rd. One version was that Cuddle Cat had been left ‘on a high shelf or ledge’. The other version, eventually supported by a photo released by the Portuguese police showing Cuddle Cat lying on Madeleine’s bed, was that the abductor had left Cuddle Cat on Madeleine’s bed.

Are you sure that this isn’t taken from a newspaper report again?
Quote:
They initially refused to supply their mobile ‘phone records to the police,


Are you sure about that?

Quote:
Those who are experts in digital photography have analysed this crucial ‘last photograph’ and several claim that there is evidence that the photo could well have been ‘photo-shopped’, that is, deliberately manipulated to produce a false result. These experts say that the original photograph does seem to have been taken at 2.29pm on 3rd May, but that Madeleine may have been added in later, from another photograph.


Which “experts” are you referring to here? The experts on this forum perhaps? The author? Talk about misleading people. Those who know little about this case may believe you – actually believe that independent “experts” have forensically examined this photo and come to this conclusion.

Quote:
Another bizarre description of the alleged abduction occurred during the Panorama programme transmitted on 19 November 2007. Describing how the abduction must have happened, and pressed by her interviewer, Richard Bilton, that the abductor must have had only a small ‘window of opportunity’ during which to snatch Madeleine, she replied in a very causal, laid-back manner: “They’d been watching us, over a matter of days, I’m sure, erm, you know. They know, erm, you know, they must have known, you know, that Gerry had just been into the apartment and then…[she makes a fast swish of her arms and a loud guttural click in the throat - described by many on the Internet as ‘whoosh, clunk’] erm, you’re right, there was only a small window of opportunity, but, you know…” The real effect of witnessing how she describes this apparently most tragic event in her life can only really be appreciated by watching the clip of it on YouTube:


Has it ever occurred to you that the woman could be drugged up to the eyeballs here? Looks like it to me…so what are you doing? Making fun of her?
Ar
Quote:
The Doctors McCanns refused to take their two-year-old twins to be tested for the presence of drugs or sedatives in their system

Are you sure about this Mr Bennett? I thought that the PJ didn’t ask as they didn’t want people to know that they were viewing the parents with suspicion...


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viv said...

Why does Mr Bennett describe Jane Tanner's description as vague and er vague and er vague.

In fact as Nicked points out she gave a pretty good description of Gerry McCann!

I am having some very serious doubts about many people who claim they support Mr Bennett and also claim they are, ahem, ANTI McCann!

You could have fooled me!

These same people who claim they are anti McCann have no problem laying into me, one of the fiercest anti McCanns ever!


xxx

viv said...

Mr Bennett says:
"Why would Dr Gerry McCann rely on such a patently fabricated description?"

Why would an ex solicitor use such words as "patently fabricated" in a supposedly factual book?

Here are Jane Tanner's various descriptions of the abductor, from McCann files, which is a pretty objective look at the FACTS. The best evidence rule provides that the very first description a witness gives is the most accurate one. Over time, as we can see, Tanner's description became less and less like Gerry and more and more like some fantasy character. She was got at! Why didn't Mr Bennett just accurately set this out in a book, supposedly to inform the public of the facts. They are not facts at all, it is his patently slanted opinion!

I WOULD URGE EVERYONE TO READ THIS WHOLE THREAD ON MCCANN FILES AND THEN THEY MAY UNDERSTAND WHY I THINK GERRY CARRIED OFF A LIVE BUT "DEEPLY SLEEPING" MADDIE!

If the compilor of the McCann files produced a book, I would gladly buy it, because it is based on the facts, not the spin and that is why I have always carried a link to it at the side of this blog!
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

Jane Tanner's sighting

Height:
5' 10" (25 May 2007)
5' 8" or 5' 9" (05 June 2007)
5' 7" to 5' 11" (09 June 2007)
5' 8" to 5' 10" (26 October 2007)
5' 9" (28 October 2007)
5' 6" (16 November 2007)
'probably 5ft 8in tall, he was taller than me but not 6ft and so between those two' (19 November 2007)

Age:
35-40

Hair:
Hair that was short on top (25 May 2007)
Dark hair, parted to one side, slightly longer at the back (05 June 2007)
Dark hair (26 October 2007)
Black hair (28 October 2007)
'Hair.. the one thing that I remember a lot is the hair. He did seem to have quite a lot of dark, reasonably-long-to-the-neck hair' (19 November 2007)

Skin:
White (25 May 2007)
Caucasian (09 June 2007)
Caucasian with southern European/Mediterranean appearance (26 October 2007)
'More local or Mediterranean looking'/'swarthy skin' (19 November 2007)

Top clothes:
Dark jacket (25 May 2007)
Dark jacket, slightly longer than a suit jacket (05 June 2007)
Wearing a maroon shirt (28 October 2007)
Heavy dark coat (19 November 2007)

Trousers:
Beige or golden long trousers (25 May 2007)
Light coloured trousers which may have been beige or mustard coloured (05 June 2007)
Camel-coloured trousers (28 October 2007)
'He was wearing quite a lot of clothes and that's one thing in hindsight again I think was quite odd because tourists when they're abroad, Brits abroad would always have cropped trousers or shorts or something, and he had a sort of a big heavy jacket and trousers on' (19 November 2007)
'He was dressed in that sort of smart casual way European people dress' (19 November 2007)

Build:
Medium (25 May 2007)
Slim (26 October 2007)

Shoes:
Dark shoes (25 May 2007)
Black or brown shoes (28 October 2007)

Carrying child:
'Carrying, sort of, across the body like that. I suppose in hindsight you'd probably think somebody would carry them more against the shoulder.' (19 November 2007)

Child's description:
'I could tell it was a child, and I could see the feet and... feet and the bottom of the pyjamas, and I just thought that child's not got any shoes on because you could see the feet.' (19 November 2007)

Child's clothes:
'the pyjamas had a pinky aspect to them so you presume a girl.'


Martin Smith's sighting

Height:
175 to 180 cm tall (5’ 9’’ to 5’ 11’)

Age:
30-35

Hair:
Short, brown hair

Skin:
White

Top clothes:
A darker top. The man is not dressed like a tourist

Trousers:
Cream or beige trousers, classic cut, of linen or cotton

Build:
Average build, physically fit

Shoes:
Not specified

Carrying child:
Carrying a child, with the head against his left shoulder and the arms hanging down alongside the body

Child's description:
Bare feet, pale skin typical of British and blonde, shoulder-length hair; the girl is about 3-4 years old, about 1 metre tall

Child's clothes:
Light coloured or pink pyjamas

viv said...

MISTY
Post subject: Re: Reasons McCanns were made Arguidos....(split topic)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:03 pm
New In Town

Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:41 am
Posts: 25
"blonde, small and cute" and fast approaching the exact age their sister was when she disappeared.
......and their mother is considering a return to Portugal......
"Watch the birdie!" :-!


---

Interesting thought but if Kate and Gerry are thinking of using Amelie in that way I fear it will go down as one of the worst of their PR disasters!

viv said...

PC Grime report at:

http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25377

viv said...

SO WHAT DID PC GRIME ACTUALLY SAY:

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating
evidence.

This unfortunately, is very vague, he is saying it is possible Eddie was alerting to human blood, or "cadaver scent contaminant" and it is NOT reliable it would have to be confirmed by forensics.

That is clear then!

I believe the McCanns were actually terrified that this came out because it damaged the thing they hold so dear, although god knows why in the circumstances, their reputation!

This is actually the only evidence that was relied upon to prove that Maddie died in that apt and it simply is not evidence of that.

But this still leaves us in the situation where the police believe the McCanns were involved, hence me suggesting they were involved in her abduction. If that upsets people tough! I still very firmly believe the McCanns were involved in her abduction, there is a vast quantify of other evidence all pointing that way!

It was quite impossible for the abductors to get into that room FACT.

Jane Tanner and the Smith Family give a very accurate description of Gerry carrying Maddie off that night, FACT


The PJ investigated the McCanns for a year but then had to shelve the investigation because they had run out of time to maintain them as arguidos FACT

Leics Police, NOR ANY OTHER AGENCY IN THE UK will say the McCann are innocent FACT

viv said...

Di, a bit more on the Freeport case, seems Socrates rushed through massive environmental destructions and we Brits were the contractors when he was Environment Minister. Given we both love the environment and wildlife this makes it even more upsetting, apart from its possible implications on this case. If he was bent I hope the Portuguese Police just keep going for him and who knows what else it might throw up! Cosy little chats with GB his fellow socialist, politicians are all the same really, cosying up to the money and they do not care what precious wetlands stand in the way! Mind you he cannot be any worse than Tony and Cherie for that! Was it the Inducias (wrong sp I know) and Berni Eckland (racing) two fabulously wealthy men who got "special priviliges). Berni could advertise killer fags but no one else can for a fee!


Luz
Post subject: Re: SOS Madeleine23/01 Socrates refuting allegations corruption
New postPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:48 pm
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That magnificent ex-minister for the environment just reduced the protected area, allowing that masterpiece of British modern badtaste commerce, by signing a document 2/3 days before the Goverment ceased functions.

Yeah, and we believe it was for free! 8-} 8-}


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splurgegun
Post subject: Re: SOS Madeleine23/01 Socrates refuting allegations corruption
New postPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:07 pm
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bonnybraes1 wrote:
Classic! I would translate that to mean, I got Uncle to hand out the brown envelopes to persuade people to say that concreting over a huge chunk of the Algarve would have no enviromental impact. But please don't remind me of it.



Bonnybraes, they concreted over a huge chunk of wetland in the mouth of the Tagus river, near Lisbon



sg


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Post subject: Re: SOS Madeleine23/01 Socrates refuting allegations corruption
New postPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:23 pm
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splurgegun wrote:
quoting "bonnybraes1"
Classic! I would translate that to mean, I got Uncle to hand out the brown envelopes to persuade people to say that concreting over a huge chunk of the Algarve would have no enviromental impact. But please don't remind me of it.

Bonnybraes, they concreted over a huge chunk of wetland in the mouth of the Tagus river, near Lisbon
sg

And now they are preparing to finish the job by building the new Lisbon airport right in the middle of the same protected area, just 4 miles away from the Freeport Alcochete.
Fortunately, aircrafts float, so the next time a flock of wild geese gets sucked into the jet engines, there is plenty of river around for an emergency 'landing'.


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beachy
Post subject: Re: SOS Madeleine23/01 Socrates refuting allegations corruption
New postPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:25 pm
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He also said he was a certified engineer when he wasn't. Someone who would lie about something that could be so easily checked will lie about anything, in my opinion.


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Laffin Assasin
Post subject: Re: SOS Madeleine23/01 Socrates refuting allegations corruption
New postPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:24 pm
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Move or merge with one of the Freeport topics if needed.

http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=227673

He said `the reports and the way they are presented are meant to target me personally and weaken me politically`.

Portugal's Prime Minister Jose Socrates, who faces elections this year, on Saturday denied media reports he misused his position as environment minister in 2002 to allow the construction of a shopping mall.
In a rare televised statement to address media allegations, he said "the reports and the way they are presented are meant to target me personally and weaken me politically".

"Those who think they can beat me this way are wrong, because I'll defend my honour, my honesty," Socrates said, denying any intervention in the licensing of the project apart from one official meeting requested by municipal authorities.

Socrates, who was the environment minister in 2002, said the environmental approval of the Freeport Outlet enterprise fulfilled all applicable legal rules and denied any "unsual haste" in its approval before elections that year.

The sprawling shopping complex was built in what was once an environment protection area and required the cabinet to make regulatory changes.

Portuguese newspapers said the cabinet approved the necessary documents just three days before the elections, which forced the government out of power. The environmental secretariat then approved the planning application.

"I never gave any instructions to give the case any urgent treatment ... I reject all insinuations and slanderous allegations that involve my name regarding this case," he said.

Portuguese police searched the residence of Socrates' uncle, Julio Monteiro, this week, in what they said was an investigation into the Freeport mall. Police were not immediately available to comment on the latest media reports.

The prime minister had accused media of attacking him over the Freeport issue before, on the eve of the 2005 election. That did not prevent his Socialist Party from winning an absolute majority of parliament seats.

The Socialists hope to preserve the majority, pledging to steer Portugal out of a recession caused by the global crisis.

Socrates urged a speedy conclusion to the investigation, "so that the truth is known about what happened and what did not happen".
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nancy said...

Hi Viv and everyone - happy Sunday!

About the 'purported to be' jemmied window and the abductor's great escape through it! Did the PJ's ever stage a reconstruction of that,i.e. pick up a 4 year old child and try to get back through that window? Bearing in mind the window cill was at Maddie's height, unless he pushed a chair under the window, I think it would be an impossible task!

Having seen pictures both on the inside of the apartment and from the outside, there is no way anyone, let alone a man with a four year old child, could get through, especially with blinds on the outside. And what about the drop on the outside - he would have to be Houdini or use a parachute!

And, I don't believe the door was left open either - that came as an afterthought from Gerry when he knew his story of the window being jemmied was discounted. And the only finger prints were those of Kate. But if the door was left open and they knew that Maddie sometimes walked in her sleep, and had been crying for them the night before, then that makes it even more criminal.

The Mccanns and their pals with all their lies, (especially Jane Tanner with her many inconsisencies) have put themselves into a position where they are backed into a corner. In spite of their bravado, they must be feeling very unsure of the future!


Nx

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hi everyone

I've been taking a break from the subject as I find I need to do from time to time. I have whizzed through the posts made since the start of my rest so have a general idea of what has been going on.

dylan

Your 2012 post last night.

I don't think I need to comment as you made an excellent analysis of the potential situation.

BTW nobody picked up on my reference to Georgie Boy as being the key to my future plans.

nancy said...

The McCann Files have a complete article from the Telegraph of the
2nd May 2008. I had never read the whole thing before and here are some comments by Kate.

The reporter said:

"How do you see Madeleine"?

Kate replied:

"When I picture her, it's memories. I don't speculate on what situation she is in. It's memories. I don't have any vision of where she is now. I just sense her being there. It's hard to explain really. It's a sensation, a feeling. It's very comforting that she's that bit closer".

What did she mean by that last sentence I wonder: "It's very comforting that she's that bit closer".

One minute she's saying she has no vision of where Maddie is and then that she's that bit closer.

If I were the McCanns I'd stop making comments because they are just digging a deeper hole for themselves.

nancy said...

Hi ICTOAN -

Nice to see you and I hope everything is going well for you.

Georgie Boy? - you've lost me there!

Nx

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hi Nancy

Second clue: RV

hope4truth said...

Hi ICTOAN and Nancy

ICTOAN

You are running off with someone called Gerogie Boy to Rhonda Valley in a Recreational Vehicle and will live on Ravioli and Veal???

Am I close??? xxx

Zodiac said...

Hi all,

Nancy,

'there is no way anyone, let alone a man with a four year old child, could get through, especially with blinds on the outside. And what about the drop on the outside - he would have to be Houdini or use a parachute!'

No wonder they did not return for a reconstruction!

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hope

One of your suggestions for RV is spot on.

hope4truth said...

ICTOAN

I am guessing it is not the Ravioli one???

Rhonda Valley???

xxx

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hope

You can have one more guess at RV.

hope4truth said...

ICTOAN

If it is Recreational Vehicle I am so jealous I have always wanted to buy one and just take off around the country xxx

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hope

Georgie Boy is a "brand" of RV. If my lady friend and I can adjust to each other's foibles them its "Europe, here we come!"

We might even go and visit Claudia.

I am sorry that this news makes your colouring match the margins of this blog.

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Sorry for the typo. N and M are so close on the keyboard. Some people have the same problem with F and G.

hope4truth said...

ICTOAN

I did not know that about Georgie Boy but how fantastic...

You will have a fantastic time and now you mention Europe my face is exactly the same colour as the margins on this blog...

Any idea when you will set off on your adventure???

I am off out now will see you all later (I am not ignoring you as I am in tears of rage and jealousy at not having my very own RV) lol

xxx

nancy said...

Good luck ICTOAN - enjoy yourselves!

Hope - you must have second sight, I wouldn't never have guessed that in a million years!

Zodiac - You can say that again!

A reconstruction is the last thing any of that bunch would want bearing in mind all their blatant inconsistencies. They knew they would have shown themselves up for exactly what they are - a pathetic bunch of child neglecters who were to blame for Maddie's disappearance. There is no getting away from that fact.

And maybe Kate, who is so anxious to get Maddie back, will one day opt to answer the 40 odd questions she so conveniently decided to keep to herself. What she did do by making that decision, is prove to everyone that she had something very bad to hide, and her solicitor knew that, hence his advice to her to keep quiet. Innocent people have nothing to hide.

I suppose she's making plans to stay in luxury at the five star hotel in Portugal - it's either to get some much needed publicity for the fund, or something else more serious, because why otherwise would she and Gerry have made separate trips?

If she does an interview while there let's hope she doesn't forget the whoosh clunk, otherwise it will be so boring with the same repeated phrases about her visions of Maddie being held captive by that monster who took her through the window!

Shame on the McCanns and their tacky tapas pals!

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hope

In case I miss your next manifestation I'll reply now. The RV is a rather complex machine and we want to make sure we know how everything operates before we set off. Our target time is the end of February. In the mean time we are living in it at a caravan site.

hope4truth said...

ICTOAN

Thats it now I am green all over I did not realise you owned it already!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you got a bed above the driver??? I have always wanted to sleep up there (easlily pleased me)...

Right got to go see you all later xxx

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hope

log onto rvonline.com
select Motorhomes
select 33 feet thru 18 feet
Top entry on 3rd page.

Similar bedroom and driving position shown on entry 3 on page one.

Tried to post direct links but they wouldn't work.

Zodiac said...

ICTOAN,

Good to read you again, you have not blogged for a while. You and your lady friend are doing what the parents of the child who claim their child was snatched to order by a gang of paedophiles should have done nearly 20 months ago. Now that really would be searching for the child they say they are working incredibly hard behind the scenes to find!

Di said...

Afternoon All

ICTOAN

Glad you are back.

Zodiac

Well said.

Di said...

Just a thought if we are going down the abduction line..What about the Taxi driver who claimed to have picked up Maddie & Kate plus a male and drove them to a waiting 4 x 4.

I remember at the time he was adamant it was her. Was this ever discounted by the PJ?

Di said...

A good point made by Dimsie on 3A's

If BK has agreed to totally fund the search for Madeleine, why are they still asking for donations to the fund. There is no need for a fund now.

Di said...

Hi Viv

Thanks for the Freeport report. I somehow don't think there will ever be a Government that is not in some way corrupt.

I remember when John Prescott said we needed more houses due to the influx of immigrants. When asked where these houses would be built his reply was on greenbelt and preferably in country villages. I remember there being an outcry at the time. It hasn't happened yet but i am sure it will.

Each year in our village we get a survey to fill in from our Borough Council. Asking if we would benefit from having more affordable homes built in the village. Nearly every occupant says no as it would spoil the village.

It is a conservation area and the only land available is greenbelt, but I think we have all resigned ourselves to it eventually happening. It is very sad to see our countryside being destroyed.

bath theory said...

What seems extraordinary is Kate refusing to answer those questions BUT even worse that a polite calm journalist hasn't taken the plunge and simply stated a couple of straight questions to them. If what we know is true then these two would be good starters.

Why didn't you answer those questions in the station Kate? There are a lot of parents amongst our viewers who would judge you badly on that. Questions like when did you last see Kate seem perfectly normal ones given she has vanished. Our viewers would like an answer Kate, what would you like to say to calm their worries about you?

......

Also Gerry. Are you aware that it is rumoured that a witness apparently saw you carrying a child similar to Madeleine away from the complex that night? What would you like to say to our viewers to calm their concerns?

......

I could go on of course

bath theory said...

Viv
You have never said you were a solicitor and I was on DX before you so I can state that with a guarantee at least as good as any that come out of Clarence's mouth.

nancy said...

Hello Di -

The taxi driver and his story of a man and a woman with a small child hiring his taxi would completely cock up the stories of the half hourly checks on the children, but then I don't believe they actually carried out all the checks they say. What time did he pick them up I wonder.

The problem is with all these stories, there is no way of checking they are completely true, or if it was someone else he picked up.

Interesting though and worth looking into.

Zodiac said...

'Just a thought if we are going down the abduction line..'

Hi Di,

I am not going down that line. Since 4/5/07 I have never believed the abduction story, still don't and never will. My thoughts were the same as GA his speaking out about his conclusions as a member of the PJ involved in the investigation confirms my beliefs. Also the Eddie and Keela vids support my belief of the situation.

nancy said...

Hi BT -

Exactly, but Kate would have come back with her usual response that her solicitor advised her to remain silent, or some such excuse.

Absolutely right though, they should have been subjected to much more thorough questioning by the media, and then people would at least have been able to make up their own minds, by their reactions to the questions, of their guilt or innocence in Maddie's disappearance.

I have no doubt myself that they were responsible for the so called abduction. The only way I could be swayed from that judgement is if they and their pals admitted they didn't make all the checks they said and found Maddie missing when they all returned to their apartments that night.

Of course there's no way they are going to do that is there?

With all their cock and bull stories they only have themselves to blame that people think they are lying through their teeth.

hope4truth said...

ICTOAN

OMG it is lovely (no room above the cab) but what a cab... You are both so lucky...

I will do the same one day (may have to widen the posts on my driveway to reverse it on)but what a fantastic adventure...

You will still post when you are on your travels I hope a little jealousy does me good xxx

ICantThinkOfAName said...

Hope

If I can find a WiFi Source on my travels I will be able to continue to post. Biggest problem with the RV is the electrical circuits are 110 volt (a la USA) so finding compatible appliances is a bit of a problem.

Di said...

Hi Zodiac

I have to admit at first I thought Madeleine had been abducted. It was when I first started reading DE and DM forums that I started to become suspicious. I like you believe she was not abducted.

I am just working on Viv's theory that we should keep both options open.

I mentioned BK last night.

Why would he pledge to back them financially for the rest of his life if needs be.

My first thoughts are that he truly believes she was abducted, and possibly knows who by and where she is, as I said last night, there are many evil people out there who would do anything to further their cause, and I am not talking about BK. Obviously this is all imo.

It may just be that he feels truly moved by the case,and feels so sorry for K & G he felt the need to help who knows.

Or it may be as someone said on 3A's there is a connection in the family.

Whatever BK's reasons for helping the McCanns, I wish he had pledged not to just help one child but to help all missing and abused children.

Sorry if my opinions are not liked over there.

Di said...

I should also add, I would truly love for Madeleine to be found alive and well, as I am sure we all do.

bath theory said...

Well said

Di said...

Hi Nancy

The taxi driver story from Joana Morais

link

Di said...

Hi BT

We seem to be like ships passing in the night these days LOL.

I am off now to watch Dancing on Ice, I will try to look back in later.

hope4truth said...

ICTOAN

When you hit a WIFI spot and are able to let us know what you are up to what a brilliant way for the two of you to get to know each other and get some great memories...

xxxx

hope4truth said...

DI

I dont understand why BK is paying out for them either...

If he is doing it for the same reason any of us would help someone in distress if we could then what a nice man he is...

What I dont understand is why he continues even though Kate refused to answer any questions? You can only help people if they are prepared to help themselves and the second it was known she refused to help her child by answering why would he continue?

Neither of them have been charged with anything so why do they need lawyers not a single lawyer is any use to Madeleine at all so why pay out thousands of pounds for them?

All these people who are there for Gerry and Kate see the same things we do and I am not sure if they are all heartless people but the smiles on what would have been her 4th Birthday are enough to set alarm bells ringing for the closest people to them...

What is really upseting is the people who are closest to Gerry and Kate should be closest to Madeleine as well yet they still defend parents who could not be botherd to take care of their children and when they told the world she had been abducted by a peadophile ring by breaking in through a window they lied.

Lie one was bad enough but the fact that not one of the 9 adults on that holiday cared enough for her to bother to search for her?

Kate said They have taken her Gerry said she has been taken by a peadophile ring and they all got on their phones and went into the apartment to call home and spread the bad news...

Not one of them checked their own children were safe but to not bother to check around the complex to see if she had wandered off (and Mrs Healy said she sleep walked) was bloody un real...

BK must have a brain to be the success that he is does he not find any of this strange???

Niki said...

Hi Everyone:-)

I have been in bed for a coupple of days, and the only constructive I have done is to read some of the T-7 interviews on my Ipod...

I have tried to see the story through "different glasses", but I have ended up beliving the same as I did when I first started to read you all on D.E. and here at Vivs blog...

IMO, Madeleine died in 5A on the 3.May, accidently or violently. Some of the T7 got to know what had happend and helped the McCanns, knowing that they would all be in trouble, to help a "pal" or of plain stupidety...

I do not think that all this checks the T9 sais were done are false. At least not on the 3.May!
Matthew Oldfield is telling in his interview that he did one "listening-check" both for his daughter and the McCanns.:

Reply “So, erm, back to the table, erm, we have, oh, back to the table, Gerry got up to go and, to go and check on his kids, I mean, and I’d come back and said, you know, I didn’t hear any noise when I listened outside your room, so I thought it was a little bit odd that, you know, not kind of a wounded pride that he sort of didn’t trust me, but, erm, I just thought, oh, you know, I’ve just checked you don’t really need to check and sort of, you know, sort of go back, but, erm, he sort of got up and went back to check on, erm, on his kids. But, you know, you don’t, you know, we’re all sort of responsible for our own children and you wouldn’t sort of say, you know, you don’t need to do that, I just sort of felt, oh I’ve listened, you don’t need to do that because I’ve kind of just done it, but I hadn’t gone into the apartment, so, erm”.

Just half hour after being "mistrusted" by Gerry, Oldfield offers to do the check again!:

Reply “Erm, so I went to check on Grace and I stood up and Russell stood up and said he was going to go and check as well and Kate stood up and I said, you know, do you want us to go and check on, erm, do you want me to go and check on your kids, erm, and she said yes. And I think I offered at that point just because we had been together all week and we had similar routines and it just kind of seemed like a nice thing to do that would save her a journey back up and, you know, it may or it may not have been different. But, erm, I said that and she said yeah fine and she said that the patio door was open and go in through there.


So he did the check, saw the twins, but not Maddie, had a look at some books in a bookshelf(!!) and returned to the table.

Either Oldfield was "in" on the game, or he was "fooled" by the others. Maybe the one to actually discover Madeleine gone.

If the McCanns were innocent, they would have asked Matthew again and again and again what he saw, what he heard, what he had done!!!

As it accures from both Matthew and Rachels interviews, the two coupples were not close friends, and even though the Oldfields stayed in PDL for another two weeks after the disapperance, they nearly did not speak to the McCanns!:

(from Rachels interview)
01.27.00 1578 “So during that two week period then after Madeleine had disappeared, how many times did you meet with Kate and Gerry”?

Reply “Erm, I mean not, not that often, erm I mean I think, mmm, oh we didn’t kind of meet up specifically to chat or talk about things or see what was happening, erm I mean we just seen them sometimes at the crèche when they collected Sean and Amelie, although quite a lot of the time Sandy who’s Gerry’s brother in law and Trish who’s Gerry’s sister erm collected the twins, erm I think one afternoon we kind of sat down in Dave and Fi’s apartment and talked to Gerry and Kate and they sort of told us you know what was happening and what was being done and erm that would probably have been either Sunday or the Monday, something like that but I mean I can’t be certain about days, erm and we saw them at church, when we went to church...

--

If it was a staged abduction, would it not be easier to have done it later on at night? For sure if it was planned, they would have had the fantacy to do it easier and thrustworthy? Who would not belive parents that are asleep and wakes up to their worst nightmare, their child is abducted from bed!
A corpse you have to move quickly not to leave any smell... Guess they broke the time-limit with a few minutes there according to Eddie and Keela...

Sorry, I've made myself and probably YOU dizzy! Too long post...
I'll post it anyway, since I have used hours writing it:-) Excuse my english as always:-))
Niki

hope4truth said...

Niki

I hope you are better (I asume you were in bed sick)???

Nice to see you and I find it hard to belive she may still be alive as well...

Take care xxx

Niki said...

Evening Hope:-)

Any easter-chocolate in stores yet?!?

This year I finished all chocolates and sweets DURING X-mas-holidays... 0 sigarettes for 4 months:-) + 10 kiloes:-(

----

On a different note..:

Rachel and Matthew Oldfield DID run back to their appartment to see if their daughter was ok, and Rachel staid there while Matthew went back to help in the search.
Well, this is what they said in their interviews in April...
Rachel also tells that during their dinners, Matthew did most of the checking, because she was realy not very keen on passing the dark car-park by herself!!! But her daughter was fine on her own?!?!?!

Niki said...

Sorry Hope, we are passing eachother..

Yes I was sick(stomach-flue), and so was/is the rest of the family...

Hope you and yours are well:-)

---
Have to leave now,
see you soon:-)

Goodnight Everyone:-)

Zodiac said...

Hi Niki,

Take care and hope all the family are well soon.

Thanks for posting that MO interview I have never read it. I am of the same opinion as you regarding M.

Di said...

Hi Niki

Lovely to see you again. So sorry you and your family are unwell, take care and get well soon and goodnight to you.

I agree with Zodiac, I have not seen that report before so many thanks for posting it.

Niki, well done for being able to stop smoking, don't worry about the weight gain I am sure you will lose it. Whilst feeling unwell is not the time to think about it.

Di said...

Interesting post from Juliet on 3A's


I've bee reading from the DVD forum, and among interesting news (to me, anyway) is that according to a couple who rented 5A in April, 2007, they always used the front door as the patio doors couldn't be closed from the outside.

Which makes a nonsense of the McCann story that they left that door unlocked, went in and out of it every half hour, etc.

Also, a member of staff at the Millennium (I think) restaurant said Kate and Gerry went there for breakfast with their children every morning (except she can't vouch for the days she was off).

Weren't we always told the McCanns had breakfast in their apartment?

And where were the other Tapas people? The woman didn't mention them.
-------------------


So K & G tell us they left via the patio doors Mmmmmm


HOW!!

Di said...

Oh sorry for those over there.

HOW??????????

Zodiac said...

Di,

Thanks for the post from Juliet.

I echo.

HOW???

viv said...

Hello Di and Zodiac

Thanks for that post Di, yet more proof of what silly liars the McCanns and their entourage are, including Tony Bennett. I asked on this blog about a year ago, does he bat for the McCanns, now I know for a fact he does!

Why worry about everyone calling you everything, if your reputation is already ruined!

xx

viv said...

Niki Well done on overcoming a foul drug addiction!! It probably will make you feel unwell for a bit and gain weight but it will be worth it. I wish I could do the same!

xxxx

viv said...

Niki thanks for your post about why you still think the McCanns killed Maddie and I can only say again I want everyone's opinion on here and it is a good one!

I suppose I would just add I think a staged abduction when they were supposedly not there makes a lot more sense. Gerry immediate claim to no less than four friends/relatives was the the abductor had gemmied the shutter and window. Obviously had he been in bed he would have heard that commotion. There has been another big discussion on 3 As confirming that it was quite impossible for any abductor to get in, there was no break in and many admissions the patio dooors were locked as quite clearly they would be. Gerry and Kate even say to the police they went around the front and used their key to get in!

At the end of the day, we are trying to analyse this case on the basis of very incomplete information, much of which the police will not disclose because it would compromise the police files/investigation and even they cannot at this stage be certain as to what they did with Maddie, otherwise they would have charged them, the same as we charge all child abusers when we have got the evidence.

I just think by Gerry's latest little chat in Portugal where he says he now wants to co-operate with the authorities there is still, just a remote chance Maddie could be recovered. But I really dread to think what may have happened to her or who he handed her over to, if that is what he did and it clearly looks that way to me!

xx

viv said...

Well exactly Hope:

What I dont understand is why he continues even though Kate refused to answer any questions? You can only help people if they are prepared to help themselves and the second it was known she refused to help her child by answering why would he continue?

In fact when it was known the rest of BK's rich friends who had got on board ran a mile, like you would expect, but he is going to stay the course. There just has to be a very good reason for that and I have a clear idea what his reason is! He is something more than " a bit of a rough diamond"..

Only seriously disreputable and dodgy characters get behind this couple, even people who are racists and rip their employers off! Gerry set the racist agenda in that call "abducted by a gang of Portuguese Paedophiles"

Pity then, Gerry, that Jane Tanner, before you could get to her, described a white man exactly like you, even down to the clothes you wear, those beige trousers and that dark jacket. How clever of you not to dress like a holidaymaker and bring those smart clothes with you, for your business needs..

xx

viv said...

Di, thankyou for the link to the taxi driver witness story. There is something in this, I believe. Walked towards a top of the range car, maybe a BMW. Three men, strange I have been saying that since reading the rogs I believe there are three men involved in this Payne, O'Brien and of course Gerry and Kate.

God help little Maddie x

Why would this taxi driver and Smith or indeed Tanner, tell such blatant lies? I do not think they did. But Tanner is telling blatant lies now. I found it particularly interesting that Portuguese Police, apparently, would take no notice of him, but English Police were coming over to talk to him, yes I am sure they did!

xx

viv said...

Someone recently on 3 As expressed a similar view to what I have said myself about Tanner on Panorama, she appeared to be drugged up to the eyeballs. Why did OB not go on either Panorama or the steps of the High Court. This case is much more serious than them just quickly putting little Maddie out of her misery. My heart breaks for her!

xxx

hope4truth said...

I thought I had broken this... I was looking back over the years posting earlier then when I went to comment it must have put it on the old thread LOL any way this is what I said xxx


Oh Niki

Sorry about the flu...

Well done on the cigarettes :o)

And just after I posted to you I thought blimey in a couple of months it will be Easter again I wonder if Niki finished her chocolate stash from last year yet???

I am looking forward to egg's aleready...

Hope to see you soon xxx

Sunday, 25 January 2009 19:40:00 o'clock GMT


hope4truth said...
Viv

When the Taxi Driver came forward I remeber asking if Madeleine was dead in Kate's arms and was shot down as being sick stupid and what ever other words the pros wanted to throw at me...

I was not trying to be sick as what better way to move a body than in plain view (Gerry could well have carried her in his arms after she died) a horrible thought but by god what ever happend to her it was not nice...

Then I read the below and there are sick people in the world that did exactly what I had said...

Sadly anything is posible when people are sick and desprate enough...

A court heard how a Big Issue seller killed his girlfriend's baby and then wheeled the body through the centre of Cardiff to the child's mother.


BBC Wales's Jason Mohammad: "When they arrived at their council flat, he put the lifeless body in a cot"
Stuart Firth assured Maria Kearney the five-month-old was asleep in her pushchair.

The couple then travelled back to Ely on a bus with Firth clutching Seanie Kearney's body close to him.

And when they arrived home he placed the child in a cot and pretended she was still sleeping.

Hours later, Miss Kearney went to check on the baby and found her cold and stiff.

Jane McDonald, prosecuting at Swansea crown court, said Miss Kearney became hysterical and raised the alarm.

Seanie was confirmed dead at Cardiff Royal Infirmary.

'Utterly ashamed'

Firth denied harming the child but a year later both he and Miss Kearney were charged with murder.

Seanie's mother spent several months in jail on remand before Firth owned up to what he had done and Miss Kearney was released.

Firth admitted manslaughter and was jailed for four years. The court heard he had three previous convictions for violence.

David Aubrey, his barrister, said he had tried to blank out the killing. He said he was utterly ashamed that for so long he failed to own up and that the mother who had lost her child had to face criminal proceedings.

The judge, Mr Justice Douglas Brown, said he accepted Firth had not intended to cause Seanie such serious harm.

But he had a public duty to mark the death of a child in this way with a substantial sentence

Sunday, 25 January 2009 23:35:00 o'clock GMT

viv said...

Hello hope my lovely,

well whenever we want to talk about the real issues we get shot down in flames and the attacks against me grow ever more virulent and determined. We can see the truth!

Here is what Mr Bennett has just said in his own words on 3As:

"the central message of our booklet - the weakness of the claim that Madeleine was abducted - reaches as many people as possible"

No wonder people actually do rate Clarence Mitchell as a really good spinner, he is, he has got people over there eating out of his hand and swallowing it, hook, line and sinker, but not me and some of my faithful posters, Clarence. There are some real people on this blog who can see what really happened and also see exactly what you are up to with your bent little ex solicitor who would clearly sell his soul to the devil, if the price was right. Two webpages with paypal buttons ha! Dont give to Tony Bennett we are already paying him!!! The British Police can also see what really happened and the time will come for this gruesome crowd, no matter what you do!



xx

Niki said...

Hi Girls:-)
Thank you for all good wishes! Family is all on feet again:-)

Smoking is easy to quit when you realise you are nothing more than a loosy drug-addict...
I did not do a reduction on cigs.before I stopped this time, from 20-30 to 0 in a day. Had the worst chemical reaction ever! I was shivering, could not consentrate (actually thought I had to park the car because I did not feel confident driving, even though I never smoke in the car!), and ended up with 40 in fever that first day! Going through that feeling of being addicted to a drug made me feel so bad, that I'm NEVER going to put myself through that again, litting another cigarett! I'm not proud of stopping smoking, I'm emberrased to have been an drug-addict for 25 years!!!

Take Care All:-)
xxx