22 Mar 2008

ARCHER AND HIS VICTORY OVER EXPRESS NEWSPAPERS TURNS TO GRIEF 14 YEARS LATER!

As the two stories below confirm. taking on Express Newspapers and getting half million pound payout, plus costs, may seem sweet at the time, with Champagne corks popping, but there is always a nasty sting in the tail. In Lord Archer's case, four years for perjury AND a £2.2M demand from Express Newspapers for their money back, with interest!


Archer wins record £500,000 damages
Andrew Rawnsley
guardian.co.uk,
Saturday July 25 1987
Article history
About this articleClose
This article was first published on guardian.co.uk on Saturday July 25 1987. It was last updated at 17:11 on July 19 2001.Mr Jeffrey Archer was yesterday awarded record libel damages of £500,000 and more still in costs from the Star newspaper for accusing him of paying a prostitute for sex.
With costs of the three-week High Court trial estimated at £700,000, the Star 's front-page story published last November will cost its owners, Express Newspapers more than £1 million.
The former deputy chairman of the Conservative Party had told the jury he was a fool for paying £ 2,000 to the prostitute, Monica Coghlan, but not a liar when he denied ever sleeping with her.
After shaking each of the jurors by the hand, Mr Archer left the court saying the 'verdict speaks for itself. ' He was silent on his future political ambitions, nor would he comment on how he intends to spend the £500,000 which is tax-free.
Mr Archer is understood to have an arrangement with a Sunday newspaper for his account of the three-week trial.
The News of the World said it would still be defending Mr Archer 's further action against it for its story which first linked him with Miss Coghlan and which led to his resignation.
The paper's lawyers are, however, thought to be pressing for an out-of-court settlement following an admission to the Star libel jury by the paper's former editor, Mr David Montgomery, that his story had also implied that Mr Archer and Miss Coghlan had sex.
Mrs Mary Archer , who sat alongside her husband throughout the trial, said she was 'grateful and delighted. '
The Star 's editor, Mr Lloyd Turner labelled in court 'the silent editor' for his decision not to appear in the witness box in defence of his article - would only say that Express Newspapers would be appealing.
The judge, Mr Justice Caulfield had earlier been forced to recall the jury after admitting to 12 'inaccuracies and mistakes' in his summing-up following submissions by the Star 's counsel, Mr Michael Hill QC.
The jury of eight men and four women, returned to the jurors' room after a recall regarded as extraordinary by lawyers, took just over four hours to find in Mr Archer 's favour.
His counsel, Mr Robert Alexander QC had demanded 'enormous damages' for the Star story, which he described as 'the gravest, most ruthless libel of modern times' for branding Mr Archer not only as a user of a prostitute specialising in 'kinky sex,' but a liar for denying it afterwards.
Though the £500,000 does not quite match the cost of 'all the tea in China' suggested by Mr Alexander, it is a record for British libel damages. The previous record was set six weeks ago, when damages of £450,000 were awarded to a former Royal Navy officer, Lieutenant Commander Martin Packard, against a Greek newspaper.
The costs of the three-week trial, estimated at up to £700,000, are also thought to be a record for the length of hearing. The most expensive action was the £1.2 million in costs paid by the BBC after an action brought by a Harley Street slimming specialist, Dr Sidney Gee, in 1985. That hearing lasted six months.
Mr Justice Caulfield called for 'dignity' in the courtroom as gasps and muted cheers greeted the jury's verdict. He told them they had carried an 'enormous burden' over the last three weeks and would be excused from jury service for 15 years.
He refused an application by Mr Hill for a stay on payment pending appeal. The Star was also injuncted not to repeat the libel.
After the millionaire novelist lingered for a few minutes to sign autographs, the Archers forced their way out of the melee of reporters and members of public in court for the most publicised libel action since Liberace sued the Daily Mirror in 1959.
Mrs Archer said they would be going home for a weekend to Granchester, near Cambridge, to rest and celebrate. 'We might,' she said, 'open a bottle of champagne. '


BUT THEN.....Justice can be slow but arrives in the end...The Prostitute says yes I maybe a prostitute but I am not a liar, like him. How said that she was killed just before the trial, when a robber ran into her car..


The end: Archer goes to jail By Sue Clough, Courts Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:59am BST 20/07/2001
Page 1 of 2
THE roller-coaster career of Jeffrey Archer, politician, failed businessman and millionaire novelist, came to a dramatic halt yesterday when he was jailed for four years for lies he told in his libel action 14 years ago.
After four days of deliberation, an Old Bailey jury convicted him unanimously of two charges of perjury and two of perverting the course of justice.
He will initially serve his sentence at the high-security Belmarsh prison in south-east London. The judge, Mr Justice Potts, said the case was "the most serious offence of perjury I have experienced" and that he must serve at least two years.
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In the libel trial, Archer won a record £500,000 from the Daily Star over allegations that he slept with Monica Coghlan, a prostitute "willing to engage in perverted sexual practices".
Yesterday the judge told him that if the libel jury had seen the evidence he had seen, "it is unlikely in the extreme you would have succeeded".
The paper is demanding its money back, with damages and interest, totalling £2.2 million. The News of the World, which settled a separate libel action, is seeking repayment of £500,000. These demands, with Archer's own legal costs, could bring his total bill to more than £4 million.
The judge appeared to question the evidence of Lady Archer, who accompanied her husband to court, as she had done throughout.
As Nicholas Purnell, QC, pleading for Archer's freedom, said that his client had not compounded any lies told 14 years ago by evidence in the trial, the judge said: "What about the evidence of Lady Archer?"
Police said later that they were considering whether to investigate Lady Archer's evidence.
When the four guilty verdicts were given by the jury of six men and five women at 12.20pm, there were cries of "yes" from the public gallery. Archer and his wife remained motionless.
He was cleared of a further charge of perverting the course of justice. His co-defendant, Ted Francis, a film producer, was acquitted of the one charge he faced: of perverting the course of justice by providing a false alibi for Archer for the night it was at one point said he had a £70 sex session with Miss Coghlan in a London hotel room.
The judge said that Archer had been convicted on clear evidence. "Sentencing you, Lord Archer, gives me no pleasure at all, I can assure you. It has been an extremely distasteful case.
"The fact is that in January 1987 you set out dishonestly to manipulate the proceedings that you had chosen to institute against the Star."
It was Archer's ambition to be the first mayor of London that led to his conviction. Francis, an old friend with whom he had fallen out, went to the News of the World after the former Conservative deputy chairman had been selected as the party's candidate in the mayoral election.
He told the paper that he had constructed a false alibi for him for the night in September 1986 that it was at first suggested he had been with Coghlan.
In its front-page story published last November, the Star had alleged that Mr Archer paid Miss Coghlan £50 for sex and £20 for 'extra time' during a 15-minute session in a Mayfair hotel.
It appeared five days after the first story that Mr Archer had paid Miss Coghlan £2,000 for a trip abroad had appeared in the News of the World under the headline 'Tory boss Archer pays off vice girl,' and after categoric denials from Mr Archer that he had either met or slept with Miss Coghlan.
In court, he told the jury that he was an 'honourable fool' who had been duped by Miss Coghlan into paying the money out of compassion and the victim of an elaborate set-up by the News of the World.
She had led him to believe that by sending her abroad he would be able to 'nail the lie' that they had ever had sex together.
Five days after his resignation, the Star had compounded the libel under the headline 'Poor Jeffrey: vice-girl Monica speaks: Archer the man I knew. ' It was designed, his counsel had told the jury, as 'the killer blow' to wipe out any further chances Mr Archer might have had of political office. He had demanded damages which would 'stamp on it' and 'strike a blow for a cleaner press. '
By their verdict, counsel had told the jury, they could determine Mr Archer 's political future.
Despite yesterday's verdict, the prospects of any return to an official post in the Conservative Party are thought to be very remote.
But the publicity of the trial is likely to have guaranteed bigger audiences yet both for Mr Archer 's cheerleading tour of the constituencies and for his books.

He had originally agreed to this because he thought he was covering up a dinner date that Archer was keeping with his then mistress, Andrina Colquhoun. He realised only much later that the alibi was for the libel trial.
Archer promised in return a £20,000 loan to help pay for a film Francis was hoping to make. The relationship between the two men cooled when, at one of Archer's vaunted Krug and shepherd's pie parties at his penthouse on the Embankment, he told another guest in Francis's hearing: "You want to watch this fellow. I lent him £20,000 and I'm still waiting for it to come back."
At the libel trial, Francis's alibi was not needed in the end because of a mix-up over the dates of the sexual encounter.
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Instead, Terence Baker, Archer's agent, who has since died, said he had met the peer by chance on the crucial night and they had talked until well after the time the Star claimed that he had picked up Miss Coghlan in Shepherd Market.
The criminal case revolved around a diary kept by Angela Peppiatt, Archer's personal assistant. Because Mrs Peppiatt's genuine diary of appointments listed a meeting with Mr Baker for the next night, Archer ordered her to make new entries in a blank diary.
It was this diary which was used in the libel case. It has since disappeared. Worried about the dishonesty her employer had involved her in, Mrs Peppiatt kept her genuine diary as "an insurance" and handed it to police in 1999.
During seven days in the witness box, Mrs Peppiatt was accused by Mr Purnell of faking the diary to cover up that she was fiddling her expenses. This she angrily denied.
It was Lady Archer's evidence about the diary that was questioned by the judge. She said she remembered the main office diary for 1986 being of A4 size, whereas Mrs Peppiatt and another witness said it was smaller.
Archer's involvement of Mrs Peppiatt drew particular criticism from the judge. He had drawn her in knowing that she had suffered a broken marriage and had children to support, he said.
He ordered Archer, who will be able to retake his seat in the Lords when he is freed, to pay £175,000 towards prosecution costs with an extra year's jail in default.
Lady Archer left the Old Bailey with her sons William, 29, and James, 27, without comment. But Tony Morton-Hooper, her husband's solicitor, said: "Lord Archer and his family are shocked and disappointed. We shall be lodging an appeal."
Miss Coghlan, who was killed shortly before the trial when a robber crashed into her car, always maintained that the sex session Archer denied had taken place.
She said: "I want him to suffer like I have suffered; I want him to squirm. But most of all I want him to tell the truth. I have never denied what I was; I was a prostitute. But I wasn't a liar. He is."

209 comments:

1 – 200 of 209   Newer›   Newest»
LittleGreyCell said...

Hello Viv,

Two excellent threads today!

Just to say I won't be around today as my son is 16 tomorrow and we're taking him to see an Alan Bennett play in the West End today as a birthday treat. Didn't want anyone thinking that the carpet underlay and Ovaltine over-excited me yesterday! (You know what we women are like with our food...)

Have a lovely day, and I'm sure there'll be some excellent points raised on the two new threads - I'll have a read when I get back.

Keep warm!

X LGC

viv said...

Hiya darling

Have a fab time in the West End with your lovely son!

Did you braise the underlay nice and slowly as I said to avoid the indigestion such fare may cause..I do hope so:-)

I think the Archer case is like a prophecy as I am sure many others will note!

Luv Viv x

viv said...

HELL HATH NO FURY LIKE EXPRESS NEWSPAPERS SCORNED - THIS IS WHAT THEY DID FOR HIM WHILST HE LANGUISHED IN HIS PRISON CELL - SUED HIM FOR THE MONEY BACK AND 14 YEARS INTEREST/COSTS...and did the Court of Appeal think his prison sentence was fair - yes and he did get a "fair trial". McCanns should have a look at this...and that was just for perjury..


R v Archer (22 July 2002, Court of Appeal Criminal)

It took less than two minutes for three Appeal Court judges to refuse Archer's application for leave to appeal against his conviction and sentence for perjury and perverting the course of justice. His four year sentence was not 'manifestly excessive' and should stand. The Court did not accept that the disgraced peer was the victim of an 'unbalanced' trial nor that the media coverage had distracted the jury.

The Daily Star is now seeking repayment of the £500,000 damages Archer was awarded in 1987 after the newspaper claimed he had sex with prostitute Monica Coghlan. The newspaper also wants interest of up to £3 million. Negotiations continue behind closed doors but without an agreed settlement there will be a further trial on damages in the Autumn

viv said...

After Express Newspapers had been threatening to seek a re-trial of his libel case from 1999 if he did not give them their money back, which he consistently refused to do, finally...

Maybe he would not have got done for perjury if he had just paid them back promptly..pursuing a dishonest course of conduct and refusing to back down can lead to terrible downfall. The law can be very cruel to those who lie and deceive, to preserve a good name they never had in the first place...


Archer pays back libel award in £1.5m settlement with StarSarah Hall The Guardian, Wednesday October 2 2002 Article historyAbout this articleClose This article appeared in the Guardian on Wednesday October 02 2002 . It was last updated at 07:48 on October 02 2002. The disgraced peer Jeffrey Archer has settled his libel debt with the Daily Star newspaper, 15 years after he won £500,000 by lying in the high court, Express Newspapers announced yesterday.

Lord Archer, who is currently serving a four-year prison sentence for perjury, has repaid the sum he was awarded in 1987 over claims he paid money to prostitute Monica Coghlan, and is understood to have paid at least an extra £1m in legal and recovery costs.

The £1.5m payment comes less than three months after the multimillionaire novelist was forced to repay an estimated £360,000 to the News of the World, from whom he won £50,000 damages over the sex claims, and 15 months after Archer was convicted, at the Old Bailey, on two counts of perverting the course of justice and two counts of perjury.

The Daily Star served a writ for damages alleging fraud against the former Tory party chairman within hours of that conviction, in July 2001, and was understood to have been seeking a total of £2.2m.

But on the eve of the latest high court hearing, lawyers for the multimillionaire and Express Newspapers agreed the out-of-court settlement.

Last night a spokesman for Express Newspapers refused to confirm the precise amount but insisted: "We are satisfied with this outcome." The total amount of over £1.5m is believed to include £300,00 in legal costs and £750,000 in recovery costs, which is understood to include interest.

Lord Archer, who is in Lincoln jail after being transferred from the open prison North Sea Camp last week for breaching the terms of his day release scheme, won the original damages after the Daily Star claimed he slept with Ms Coghlan while deputy chairman of the Conservative party in September 1986.

In the 1987 libel action, the jury ruled he should be awarded the then-record amount following a summing-up from Mr Justice Caulfield, in which he contrasted Ms Coghlan to the "fragrant" Mary Archer, and memorably asked: "Is he [Archer] in need of cold, unloving, rubber-insulated sex in a seedy hotel round about quarter to one on a Tuesday morning after an evening at the Caprice?"

Following revelations in the News of the World by his friend Ted Francis that he had provided a false alibi for him, an Old Bailey jury last year was told Lord Archer used a faked diary to win the case against the Star and that he had asked Mr Francis, a retired TV producer, to provide an alibi to back up his case.

Mr Justice Potts said that had the 1987 jury known the full facts, it was "unlikely in the extreme" Archer's libel claim would have succeeded.

ratonthebeam said...

I haven't been around as I have been in hospital undergoing minor surgery. Nothing to do with cowardly "anons" threatening me. I do have a life away from blogs!

I did however see what was being written about me. Rest assured, people, that the information is now in the hands of both the local police and my employers' solicitors, and they are taking a very dim view of their staff, and innocent students, being stalked and threatened.

Wooram, rest assured, I am allowed the Internet and blogs at work, these are part of the subjects I teach, after all.

But you will all be able to read all the details in the papers eventually. Including all about the sort of people the McCanns have "defending" them. Can't see that doing their case much good, somehow, but then I don't think "anon" thought this through, somehow.

Not sure why Troll has a poll asking whether her own blog should be sued, because she would be included under the "libel and slander" banner, too, surely?

Right, you won't be hearing from me for a wee while now, not because I have been arrested or fired or sued but because I am going to Turkey for some well-deserved R&R. I might look in from the Internet cafe in Alanya.

Alsabella has an Easter tribute to the Police on her blog, which I thought was beautiful and I am certain that Snr Amaral will eventually be proved right and completely vindicated.

I do hope Rosie and Jane aren't shopping in TK-Maxx this Easter weekend, I just bought Portuguese soap, a Portuguese cake, some Portuguese Turkish Delight (!) a Portuguese blouse and some Portuguese socks for the kids. Next I am going to Sainsbury's to buy some Portuguese Vinho Verde and marzipan from Madeira which I also like very much.

Have a wonderful holiday period, folks, whatever it is you celebrate. I am off now to do holiday things with my children.

Also thanks to everyone for their messages of support!

lizzy said...

HI Viv,
Some reporting from the independant.....Saga of the McCanns is not yet over..(Richard Ingrams week, half way downpage)

The libel lawyers Carter-Ruck, famous for their aggressive tactics and huge fees, have won another victory. Only recently they were in receipt of a £30,000 cheque from the Government for services rendered to the House of Commons Speaker Michael Martin. This week their clients Kate and Gerry McCann won the jackpot when the Daily Express paid them half a million pounds for a series of libels concerning their daughter Madeleine. Based on the Speaker case, one can safely assume that the Carter-Ruck bill of costs will run to six figures at least.

No one can feel too sorry at the thought of Express owner Richmond Desmond, who has made a huge fortune out of pornography, having to shell out a fraction of his profits to the needy McCanns. All the same, the story is puzzling. The Express was undoubtedly guilty of libel. But the suggestion that the McCanns might have been in one way or another responsible for their daughter's death did not originate with the newspaper. It was the Portuguese police who long ago branded the McCanns as suspects. And officially they remain so. It has never been explained why they were so convinced of the McCanns' guilt when all the facts seem to point the other way.

But, following this week's libel settlement, there was general agreement that as a result of the Daily Express apology the McCanns had finally been cleared. But that isn't so. They are still officially labelled arguido, or suspects. The Portuguese police are even anxious to re-interview the McCanns' friends, the so-called Tapas Nine. So all those who were hoping they had heard the last of this story are likely to be disappointed.
I think this is quite a factual piece for once.......Lizzy

lizzy said...

Rat,
I hope you are recovering well after your surgery, sorry to hear you have been in hospital and hope you enjoy your rest, take it easy and don't do too much ...hope you enjoy your time in Turkey with your children. Lizzy

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
Very very interesting articles re Lord Archer,just shows he did not win in the end, got his come uppance.I hope the Mccanns read this and shudder, as this could also happen to them if found guilty..Lizzy

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
Very very interesting articles re Lord Archer,just shows he did not win in the end, got his come uppance.I hope the Mccanns read this and shudder, as this could also happen to them if found guilty..Lizzy

hope4truth said...

Rat

Have a lovely holiday see you when you get back xxx

2345 said...

Felicity,

The cases bear no comparison:

In Archer's case, prosecutor's and defence counsel's evidence was presented to a Court of Law which ruled DE liable for paying Archer a substantial sum for damages.

In the McCanns case, DE has allegedly paid a Fund - under limited company management a substantial sum for damages. It has allegedly done so despite the claimants being the prime suspects in their daughter's disappearance.
The suspects have, reportedly, been awarded substantial damages PRIOR to Court examination of the evidence on British & Portuguese Police.

No self respecting newspaper makes payment for damages without just cause. In Archer's case, DE were given no option, Court ruled they paid.

No self respecting newspaper bows to the demands of prime suspects amid a criminal investigation in Police hands; nor do they make substantial payments for damages prior to their lawyers and/or Court's examination of evidence found and held by the Police.

Mr Justice Potts said that had the 1987 jury known the full facts, it was "unlikely in the extreme" Archer's libel claim would have succeeded.

By the same token, DE is leading the public to believe that their lawyers recommended an equally substantial payout to prime suspects on the basis of 'no evidence' PRIOR to the full facts being presented to Court for Judgment.

I'm convinced no payment was made -IF it was, there will be no legal means of retrieval as in Archer's case. Unlike his case, DE fully supports prime suspect claimants on the basis of NO EVIDENCE as Judge & Jury, in lieu of Court Judge & Jury.

Government strategies protecting the McCanns since day one have been determined and implemented on the sole basis of public opinion and reaction. DE has been the main player in CM's orchestrated defence by media campaign.

2345 said...

lizzy,

I don't agree that the DE can be guilty of libel without Court's thorough examination of the evidence on police files. Libel cases are a two sided argument presented by prosecuting and defence counsel.

The 'definite' in the McCanns' case is information released by Leicester Police for public broadcast the day PJ presented it to the McCanns.

Given the establishments deep involvement in this case, one wonders whether their aim is to quash our Police as well as PJ along with all the evidence !!

It wouldn't surprise me - the behaviour in this case is on a par with the behaviour at the time of and after Diana's 'accident'. But for Mr Fayed's persistence and money, the public may well have believed the suicide victim's blood was Henri Paul's - end of story and cover up. I kept the toxicologists comments out of interest; carbon monoxide blood readings were commensurate with a suicide victim.

leigh3 said...

...just like a game of cat and mouse, the chase continues, 2345. Excellent analysis by you, I thought.

Excellent reminders from you, Viv, on the complexity of libel law; a very nasty game, it is, but useful for revealing political and commercial liars/frauds.

Yes, Lizzy, very interesting article from The Guardian; I suspect its central point will get more Press comment, eventually.

Moral of the story: never pull a tiger by the tale; never pull a ratonthebeam by the tail!

Have a great hol, ratonthebeam. Good luck exposing the stalkers for your sake, your students, and your employers.

dolores said...

ROTB,
First let say I am happy to hear that you are out of hospital now ,and on the road to recovery.
Have a wonderful holiday and rest.
And a Happy Easter to you and yours.
XX D

I knew in my heart that you would never be intimidated by the threats made against you,and I am delighted that you have it in hand.
They will perhaps think about the consequences before threatening others,and what could happen as a result.They think they are invincible, and do not realise how serious this can be.

2345 said...

It's great to read ROTB's post and know she's okay and is unfazed. I know she's more than capable of looking after herself, but was bothered nonetheless.

What next, I ask myself in this increasingly sordid business ?
The mind boggles !!

Rat, have a well earned break and a great time with your children.

atardi said...

ROTB,

Am reading back and saw your name. Alles ok?
Read on Alsabella's blog that you have a stalker?

leigh3 said...

Hi again 2345,

I see your points, however the DE has exercised its right to admit libel, and pay for it, as an out of court settlement. That's unusual at this stage, but it is what it is, for now.

Happy Easter, by the way. Always a pleasure to read your comments.

2345 said...

Felicity,

I remember being astounded by the verdict in Archer's case.

His 'alleged' indiscretion pales into insigificance in relation to the issues in Madeleine's case, don't you think ?

2345 said...

leigh3,

It's unprecedented for lawyers to advise DE to pursue reimbursement from Archer whilst at the same advising DE to hand out equivalent sum to prime suspects without argument. It's unprecedented to make a front page apology - online commenting blocked for 3 consecutive days.

hope4truth said...

Hello All

I have just been to Troll's site and voted yes to blogs being taken to court for libel I have fantastic Solicitors I can call on if I am ever taken to court and as part of my defence they would have some very intresting questions to ask the McCanns about child neglect to start with and would also be asking for proof of everything they have spun so far...

Actually it would probebly do them a favor as they are so keen to answer questions.

It would also be part of my defense to un mask the DX Pro's who pushed me to believe more and more that they were hiding something and see if any of these genuine posters were in fact paid to post or had direct involvemnet with the Arguidos.

After all if Blogs are taken to court for libel then a vast amount of evidence about what was said by who and why would involve most of us who have ever posted a comment and I guess our private lives will come out but I have nothing to hide so I will be fine.

It would be intresting to meet some people from the other side face to face and see if they are so nasty in real life or like to hide behind there PC???

Intresting Idea all this Sueing there must be lists of 1000s of people who could be sued as people often discuss this very sad case will it be this is the only criminal case in history none of us can comment on???

Poor Madeliene it is Easter she should be getting excited about Easter Eggs and family getting together. I hope wherever she is she is not terified or in any pain whatever happend on the 3rd May it happend to Madeleine because her parents decided they were far more important than their children and yet they are being rewarded with Money to spend on a fraud investigation Agency and they can cash in on their daughters misery and be seen as the victims.

One vivtim Madeleine and all the money in the world will not help this poor child some basic care from her parents months ago and she would not be missing.

leigh3 said...

Happy Easter to you too, Atardi.

We're like ships passing today. I must go as you arrive. See you next time.

A little advice about letting go of teenagers:
Rule 1: Don't panic.
Rule 2: Remember rule number 1.

xo

leigh3 said...

...and finally, 2345.

I agree that it is unprecedented, in keeping with a lot about this most unusual case.

On the DE, I did sometimes comment that this case would test many bright minds, and certain conventions, including our diplomatic relations. So, this has proved to be.

IMO, it will become more bizarre before it becomes clear, and simple.

Preferential treatment for the McCanns and others in Portugal set the scene for the tragedy and intrigue we see unfolding before our very eyes.

Incredible, but true.

See you next time, 2345. Always a pleasure to read you.

dolores said...

Viv,
Two very good articles today thank you.
In regard to DE paying an out of court settlement, I would have thought that it was very different in relation to a court ruling.
My other concern and what I fail to understand, is why the Public Ministry have told PJ it is not necessary to question G & K again, when PJ had several questions prepared for them. I know they might refuse again to answer,but after all the PM don't know for sure they won't answer. there be'outside' interference.

atardi said...

Hi Leigh3,

Always read your posts.

Thank you for your advice about letting go of teenagers ;).

Have a nice day.

dolores said...

Viv,
Why do you think the DE,in their apology,would say they are innocent and that there is no evidence, when they do not know this for a fact.
This has caused a lot of controversy and anger, and if it is true what John Mc Cann said on tv that the family wrote out this apology,they are in fact telling a huge lie,to sway public opinion into believing it, and trying perverting the course of justice.

Bianca said...

Just want to say a quick "hi", and congratulations to HippyChick on a wonderful and insightful take on the Madeleine McCann tragedy so far (posted from Alsa's blog). It really left a lump in my throat!

I hope this Easter that some of the light of Christ (or the light of "goodness", whichever one may believe), shines down on missing and abused children everywhere. Let's hope that the recent tragedies (Madeleine, Scarlett, and Shannon) draw sharp attention to the absolutely vital need for parents to take loving responsibility for the lives that they bring into this world!

On a lighter note - Happy Easter folks, and ladies, have a chardy for me! (that's what I drink, so I just assume every other chick does too! LOL)

Take Care xx

atardi said...

To Dolores'mother,




HAPPY BIRTHDAY.

Bianca said...

Just want to say a quick "hi", and congratulations to HippyChick on a wonderful and insightful take on the Madeleine McCann tragedy so far (posted from Alsa's blog). It really left a lump in my throat!

I hope this Easter that some of the light of Christ (or the light of "goodness", whichever one may believe), shines down on missing and abused children everywhere. Let's hope that the recent tragedies (Madeleine, Scarlett, and Shannon) draw sharp attention to the absolutely vital need for parents to take loving responsibility for the lives that they bring into this world!

On a lighter note - Happy Easter folks, and ladies, have a chardy for me! (that's what I drink, so I just assume every other chick does too! LOL)

Take Care xx

dolores said...

Atardi
Hi,I will pass on your greetings to her thank you,it is next Saturday,and we have had to tell a little white lie why we are taking her to London.But I am sure she won't mind when she sees what has been planned for weeks now.It should be great fun,and we are all getting quite excited about it,with only one week to go.

Happy Easter to you and all your family.
XX D

dolores said...

Bianca,
La Pasqua felice a lei l'annuncio la sua famiglia.

=Happy Easter to you and your family.
Am I right in remembering you are Italian?
Please,what is a 'chardy' :)
xx D

atardi said...

Hope4truth,

That would be very interesting! Bloggers from all over the world face to face.

Anonymous said...

viv i think you should start your own poll

should the other blogs be sued for publishing personel comments about other posters

what they did to rat was disgracefull but it looks like she is fit for them imo

i used to post on the de and was on the fence but not now

atardi said...

Dolores,

Is your mother still in good condition?

dolores said...

Atardi,
Apart from athritis and a few other little things,she is marvelous,she is very fashionable and slim, has all faculties,and a great sense of humour,and rarely complains,she is very active to and looks a lot younger.Ilove her to bits.

Thanks for asking :)
XX D

hope4truth said...

Atardi

If you are called over for the case you can stay with me xxx

Hope you are ok it was snowing here this mornign and is now really bright and sunny xxx

hope4truth said...

Dolores

Your Mum sounds marvelous If I have good health and my memory is still good I hope I live to 90 xxx

dolores said...

Viv,
Have you seen this?


Two British newspapers were asked to publicly apologize to the McCanns, recognizing in their first page that they were mistaken when they suggested that the parents of the lost girl in the Algarve were guilty.

The spokesperson of the couple advanced that Kate and Gerry McCann did not intend, for the time being, to prosecute Portuguese newspapers that have published defamatory news on the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, but they did not exclude totally that possibility.

However, the lawyer who led the process against the two British tabloids, Adam Tudor, left the hypothesis in the open, stating, outside a court in London that «these issues continue in analysis».

In late August, the BBC broadcasted the intention of the McCann’s lawyers to prosecute the weekly newspaper Tal&Qual due to a piece of news on the alleged conviction that Portuguese police believed that the McCanns were responsible for the Madeleine’s disappearance and death.

« If the McCanns did not submit a criminal complaint in the space of six months or they did not even use their right to reply, 30 days for daily newspapers and 60 days for all the other publications as stated in the Portuguese Law, they will loose the right to complain and will not be viable any decision in this sense », declared Miguel Reis.

Source: Lusa / SOL

atardi said...

Dolores,

Sounds like she is a wonderful woman. Have you inherit these qualities also?

atardi said...

Hope4truth,

Had a long distance call.
That's really nice Hope.

It has been snowing this morning and right now.

alsabella said...

Good Morning Everyone

I am more and more convinced that the apologies on the front pages of the DE group papers is meant for one purpose and one purpose only: to try to sway public opinion in the UK.

IF the McCanns and their lawyers are sooo sure that there is no evidence against them and that the charges will be dropped, then why are the attorneys advising them NOT to come back to Portugal on 3 May? Particularly when, I believe, a decisionas to charge them or not must be made somewhere in mid-April?

Are they not coming back because they are scared? What do they think the Police may have/might find?

Or will they be instead discretely going to say...Spain...somewhere close to Huelva, perhaps?

viv said...

RATONTHEBEAM

HOW FANTASTIC TO HEAR FROM YOU - I WAS WORRIED FOLLOWING SUPERTROLL'S DISGUSTING AND SICK BEHAVIOUR.

I hope your surgery was not too painful and you are recovering well, but clearly do not need this sort of nastiness in the process. Maybe, it will make them stop and think what an obnoxious bunch of thugs they are, interfering in people's personal lives, where they plainly have no legal right to bully and stalk.

I am absolutely delighted that as in my case, you have done the right thing and reported this to the police, also your employer's solicitors.

I think this Supertroll character and others are so far gone with their personal hate campaigns they just do not have the capacity to understand they are breaking the criminal law by harassing us in this way, even though I have attempted to point this out to them. Then of course there is the civil law of libel. I recall when I pointed out I had gone to the police Supertroll repeatedly demanded to know the investigating officer in the case, clearly with the intention of thereby finding out my identity. She is quite mad enough to keep on stalking people but lacks the basic intellect to think through the consequences of her actions, repeatedly telling me I am "defamating" the McCanns, Carter Ruck etc. A control freak who thinks that if she conducts a poll and sends enough emails, does enough of her pathetic research she can get us all into trouble, merely because she says so! She even admitted to doing research on my parrot, in her desperate bid to "out" me and pursue her obsession with me. On her blog you may have noticed she implores people to email her with "information" about us. We have overwhelming evidence of her being a sickening stalker and even if she took that blog down I have a copy of it and every sickening post she has put on here..whilst repeatedly being told to go away and not come back!

I am sure in you, she seriously picked on the wrong one and hope you will email me, in confidence concerning action against this bunch of demented morons who claims to "support" the McCanns!

Have a fab time in Turkey where I suspect it may be a bit warmer than here! Last time I was there, I was absolutely hot, hot, hot...yummy. It has been snowing a bit here but is now sunny, but still v cold! Hope you find just a little time in the internet cafe, but the main thing dont worry, enjoy your break.

I know we are all rooting for Snr Amaral. What a great man who lead the investigation to name these two as Arguidos. I remember that beautiful email he sent demonstrating his concern for justice for the little one. He fights for victims, not abusive parents. Bravo to him! I too enjoyed Alsabella's tribute to the hardworking police who must all be really grateful to. It has been really hard work for them, I know!

Lolol all the Portuguese goods that Rosie and Mum 21 in particular would really hate! I know you will most especially enjoy them darling.

Have a fantastic break and get yourself really well.

Loads of love from all of us and hurry back, we really miss you!!


Viv xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

dolores said...

Alsabella,
Hi,The whole world knows they and their friends are not innocent of leaving their children each night of their holidays except one,and Madeleine payed the ultimate price for their neglect. If the evidence claimed by PJ as implicating the parents,and BBC stating this on national TV and around the world,who are the DE to discount it without seeing or knowing what the police have.
Therefore I think a great deal of interference is going on,and I hope your PM is not influenced by it. It is worrying that he will not let them be questioned,how does he know they won't answer this time.Pity they were not thrown in jail immediately

dolores said...

Atardi,
Iwould like to think so.:)
XX D

dylan said...

Hey Rat! Great to see you back.
Get well very soon & enjoy your R&R in Turkey. I looked at the weather forecast for the whole of europe in the Independent. Bloody baltic here, trough is syphoning down arctic weather but the Med looks to be a sunny, 20 degrees :)

The very high that is pinning down the trough here, looks to stabilise the nicer weather to the south east, at least for the next few days - have a great time. Britain is greenish-blue with envy!!! Brrrr!

Everyone else, have a lovely weekend and stay warm. I didn't know TK Max sold so much fine Portuguese stuff, will have to have a foray next time i'm in Norwich. Maybe we could start a Preferential Portuguese Purchase Ethic?! PTBP - "proud to buy portuguese" lol.

Take care folks & happy 90th to your grandma, Dolores, from me too - how lovely for her. She will be thrilled & I am excited for you all too. Be sure to let us know how it goes & maybe send a pic or too to Viv.

Hope - one of your typos made me laugh - it said the "vivtims" - very funny. You are a darling!

By for now, dillie :> (an easter chick for you all!)

alsabella said...

Hi Dolores

Our PM has stated publicly for all to hear, that this is a POLICE matter and not a POLITICAL matter, at least in our Country.

The person who decided not to have them questioned again, is allegedly the Prosecutor, who instead is said to prefer to concentrate on the friends testimony.

2345 said...

Statement made outside of Court:

However, there had been no proceedings inside during which PJ's & British Police respective dossiers of evidence had been presented for Court consideration and/or judgment.

Smoke and mirrors ... mirrors and smoke.

viv said...

Hiya Alsabella, Dolores and everyone!

Alsabella

I do agree the apologies/declaration of no evidence etc on the DE is meant to sway public opinion. As ever, though, anyone with a mind of their own, could not be swayed by this. It is plain stupid!

The issues to me, in a way, are clear cut and simple. Newspapers can report a police case against a suspect. What they must not do, however, is to pre-judge that case by positively declaring the accused in in fact guilty of that crime. This is where the DE libelled the McCanns.

Only a criminal court of law can proclaim them guilty and our law will come down hard on newspapers who pre-judge in that way..they are showing contempt to the court and judicial system.

Not only that, in The Star, they made some fairly scurrilous allegations about wife swapping and the hard up McCanns selling Madeleine. If they want to make such claims then they have to have the evidence to actually back that up.

To pick up on 2345's earlier post I would again have to say that she seems to think a civil court in a libel case can somehow hold a criminal trial as to whether in fact the McCanns are guilty or not. They cannot do this!

The issue in the libel case was the DE made positive allegations that they could not back up. That is because neither the High Court, or the Daily Express could have demanded access to the police file to try and investigate those issues.

Had the Daily Express wished to persist, the High Court would have probably stayed the libel proceedings until such time as the criminal case had been dealt with because they would not interfere in this process. Criminal cases are more important than civil actions and will always be dealt with first, so that the civil action, does not pre-judge or interfere in that process at all. Again, an indication of why newspapers must not get so heavily involved in a criminal case in the first place.

The McCanns lawyers advised Kate, in particular, to exercise her right to silence because the evidence is so strong against her.

Likewise the McCanns lawyers have advised the McCanns not to go back to Portugal. We should not get too caught up with what the Express printed, drafted by the McCanns and their lawyers and the reality of their situation in the criminal proceedings against them. Their situation is dire.

On my other post I advised that suspects rarely exercise their right to silence. This is because a refusal to talk, in itself, makes the person look so guilty.

If you are innocent, then you want to explain. If you want your daughter back then you want to co-operate with the Police.

As the Diplomat reported, the McCanns, from the very outset, were completely un-cooperative.

If Madeleine had been abducted then her parents would also have been the victims of serious crime. Since when did victims refuse to co-operate with police, only criminals adopt that attitude!

Likewise those seeking to support the McCanns have conducted a hostile "anti-police/anti-Portugal" campaign. They do not fool decent members of the public with this. We support the police and we are not racists!

I note you point about Kate may like to go back to Spain...somewhere near Huelva perhaps. The McCanns have paid a few visits to Spain... I wonder why?? Why did they do an interview on Spanish TV???? Why do they continue to employ Metodo/Marco given his ridiculous claims he knew the paedophile gang in Morocco who had Madeleine and would have her back for Christmas??? Good questions - no answers from the McCanns..just like the police, they do not wish to try and explain why they need fraud specialists in Spain and UK...we have to take a view about that!

Great to hear from you darlings!
Viv xxxxxxx

dolores said...

Hi Alsabella,
I did of course mean your Public Minisitry not Prime Minister.
Sorry if you misunderstood me.

Happy Easter to you.
XX D

lizzy said...

Hi Viv/all
I seem to remember in the last few weeks of the DE that one night on there Rpops said that he/she thought that the Mccanns would return to Portugal on the 11th April to get their Arguido status lifted, as Rpops correctly predicted the 18th March as an event , he was a day out, I wonder whether anything will happen on the 11th April. Rpops in my opinion is part of team Mccann, I even read once on his/her blog that he was being careful in what he said as people had picked up on things. Time will tell as to what happens in this case, but if this is a cover up,who knows? Lizzy

viv said...

Hiya Dillie

That must be one of my better typos .......Hey Supertroll you are Vivtimising me and my mate Ratonthebeam !

I wonder if the Oxford dictionary will adopt it!

Lovely to hear from you

Have a great Easter!

Viv xxxxxxxx

viv said...

Hiya Lizzie do you remember RP saying in the closing weeks on the DE it has important but very productive meeting and needed an early start again. Half a million is pretty productive!

Also it has just posted dates of 7 and 9 April as being important meeting dates for it. This person likes to play games like Gerry McCann dropping little hints because it thinks it is so clever.

Lord Archer thought he was so clever but see how, in the end, Express wiped the floor with him! His own half a million in damages got trebled when he had to pay it back...I do not think Express are part of Team McCann. I think they are playing a deadly game with them and they will win, in the end. What they printed about Archer sounded scurrilous, BUT IT WAS TRUE!

It should be a warning for the McCanns!

Luv Viv x

dolores said...

Viv,
Thanks for explaining that so well,we know very little about the law,and it always seems therefore more complicated that it really is,by the way you put it.

Luv ya XX D

viv said...

Hiya Dolores

Glad to try and help - it is one thing I am good at:-)

luv ya too xxxxxx

hope4truth said...

Hi ALL

Hope everyone is ok???

Been reading back very intresting...

dolores said...

Viv,
We are all blessed with a gift,and all depends how you use it.
What is your opinion on the Portuguese libel laws, I sent above.

XX D

viv said...

Hiya Hope and Dolores

It is interesting isnt it!

I believe the Daily Express know full well the McCanns are guilty and will be convicted and they are just playing with the McCanns. Once they are convicted they will get it, both barrels, just like Archer did with them suing for their money back with interest having got him sent down for perjury.

I believe Express Newspapers intend to make a small fortune out of this case with books, serialisations etc. I think many comments they collected in those blogs will also feature. They will depict the abusiveness of the defence campaign, the money, the lies..a truly mammoth story!

Dolores

Portugal and UK have set time limits for libel because the whole point of the action is not actually to get a huge slice of dosh it is to prevent further damage to your reputation. The thinking is, if you cannot be bothered to take action quickly then you cannot be that bothered about your reputation and therefore have lost the right to sue. 6 months in Portugal 12 months in UK. So why did the McCanns wait 10 months? Because they wanted the money, they just sat back and waited and let the damages soar..not really concerned about their reputation at all. If they were we would never have had the media circus. There would be not be all this stuff written if they had just gone home and shut up would they, ~Clarence just kept on feeding the press - to get MONEY!

The McCanns have been casting around for anywhere they could make some more dosh, films, interviews, sueing - DE were the easy target - they went over the top and prior to the criminal judgment against them, could not prove what they said that Mc are guilty!

The reason they are not suing in Portugal is because all the Portuguese press have done is report the police case. Tal and Quai did not say they were guilty they said the police believed that Kate killed Madeleine and they disposed of the body - that was the truth and so it cannot be libel¬


Viv x

hope4truth said...

Hey Viv

The thing that makes me not like or trust them at all is the fact it is all about them not about Madeleine.

Because they neglected their children she is missing. If she was taken by a peadophile it was because there was an oportunity to take her. I am not excusing the discusting scum who may have taken her he had no right and if he is real I hope he burns in hell.

Children should be free to play and trust adults unfortunatly in this very sad world they cant do this as it is not safe. As Dr's more than many other people they should know that it is not safe abuse would have been covered as part of their training.

Apart from the risk of abduction many other reasons not to leave your child is aparent to most people even those with a low IQ know that a child needs protecting they may choke fall drown etc etc but none of these things mattered as much as dinner with their mates...

To hear they cant return to PDL for the anniversary as they are Arguidos is pathetic if they did nothing other than neglect their children (which is bad eough) there is no evidence and they know they have nothing to fear...

If I had left my children alone and one of them was missing because of it I would hang my head in shame and never forgive myself. I would not be blaming everyone else and suing when people thought I was lying. They put themselves in this situation no one else and to be more concerned with jogging times on a blog about your missing daughter than talking about the pain of missing her sums up why people think they are very very odd and are lying....

Poor Madeleine did not stand a chance...

viv said...

Hiya Hope

In the early stages on the DE I used to run that argument...even if she was abducted it was their fault.

But why would they exercise their right to silence etc if they had nothing to do with it. I am afraid there is no evidence of any abduction and masses of evidence including from the McCanns conduct it was them. That is what the police believe and they do have all the evidence. Remember Det Super Prior has not long returned from a three days visit to Portugal. If there was any chance this was not the McCanns do you really think he would have bothered? More to the point would his superiors allocate his expensive time pursuing them if there was no point. Police at his level are reserved for the most serious cases and they would have other work he could be usuefully engaged on, but this is a very serious case, worth the resources, they killed Madeleine and they disposed of her body and they have repeatedly defrauded and lied ever since. That is why the British and Portuguese police are throwing so much time and money at this case. They are going down!

Viv x

dolores said...

Viv/Hope,
As we know they have been advised by their lawyer not to go back to PDL.
What kind of reception did they imagine would be waiting for them if they did,do they think people would be clapping and cheering, and welcome them with open arms,the same goes for their family if they do go, which I read, they are.

XX D

viv said...

Hope darling

You are right - they were more ocncerned about how quick they could jog up a cliff than where their daughter was - they are lying and they have no empathy at all.

Poor little Madeleine did not stand a chance. Leaving their children alone is but an indicator of what an abusive couple of "parents" they are. In spite of their protests, no reasonable doctors would do this. Remember how either angry or embarrassed Gerry was about drugging their children - it was reported that toxicology tests from the bodily fluids found in the hire car indicated the presence of drugs. I also believe the twins were drugged so they would sleep through the furore. Again what parents, doctors, would drug their own children?

Viv x

atardi said...

Hi Viv,

Thank you for explaining the law in an easy way to us.

On wednesday you explained the libel thing also to Zodiac.
That's when I understood the difference between a libel case and a criminal case.

I hope you don't mind that I'll repeat your post.



Blogger viv said...

Hiya Zodiac

If people are understanding this as a judicial clearing then they have completely misunderstood.

Libel is a civil wrong where an individual takes action saying they have had their character defamed. It has got nothing at all to do with the criminal action against the McCanns, where the State of Portugal are taking action against them for being in breach of the criminal law. If Portugal do not prosecute them the UK could. In short they can be prosecuted in either country for such a serious offence. They are suspected of killing Madeleine and disposing of her body and they are named prime suspects in that investigation. The libel ruling does not change that.

Most people who institute libel proceedings want the case fought out in court because they want a judgment from the court saying they have been libelled and therefore clearing their name. The libel alleged here is that the Daily Express have clearly stated they are guilty of killing Madeleine and other silly spurious allegations in The Star which it seems to me actually are patently false e.g. hard up McCanns sold Madeleine. Wife swapping etc. The serious issue here is that there is a presumption in British law and indeed across the EU of innocence of a criminal offence until such time as a criminal court of law have actually pronounced you guilty of the crime following a trial or admission of guilt. It is not open to a newspaper to declare the McCanns are guilty as the Daily Express so clearly did with one of their headlines

"McCanns are guilty"

another said

"McCanns are lying"

Only the criminal court can make such pronouncements and by saying that before the McCanns have actually been found guilty they were, technically, libelling them. They are entitled to be considered innocent until actually proven to be guilty. That does not of course mean that they actually are innocent or that this was a decent and responsible thing to do. They have just abused the law in a technical way.

The High Court could not pronounce the McCanns are innocent of a criminal offence because they are a civil court hearing libel cases etc, not a criminal court. Neither did the High Court even make a ruling because the case was settled on agreed terms without any court hearing. In such cases the Judge simply accepts the settlement terms and makes an Order that is the end of the matter the McCanns have foregone their right to an actual judicial determination of whether or not they were libelled. They have done nothing at all to clear their name, they were not even in the right court but the last thing they would have wanted was a trial because obviously the issue of what actually happened to Madeleine would have been considered and the McCanns obviously do not want to be put in the position of having to give evidence of that on oath which could have seriously prejudiced their defence of the criminal case against them.

Wednesday, 19 March 2008 22:06:00 o'clock GMT

viv said...

Hiya Dolores

The McCanns are all about putting on a good show..apparently in the early days in PDL apart from keep going to church with the cameras in tow, which they never did before, they used to do a nightly walk around PDL! Is this the behaviour of devastated parents or those who want to be in the limelight, have pictures taken for the press and get the story really big and the tills ringing.

What signal will sending the relatives to PDL minus Kate and Gerry. No doubt they will be seeking to play the victim card again, Clarence will have some spin put out poor Kate and Gerry could not go to PDL for the "anniversary" because of the big bad PJs. But will this buy them some sympathy and will the locals in PDL be pleased to have the circus come back to town? I really dont think they will!

More seriously misjudged and disastrous "PR"..
Viv x

viv said...

Hiya Atardi

It is nice to know I am helping people to understand. The law is intensely complicated and it can be difficult to explain in a non-technical way so if I can achieve that, it is a real compliment!

Maybe I should be a law lecturer:-)


Viv x

atardi said...

Hope,

Your post at 18.14. Excellent.

leigh3 said...

Hi.

Must burn dinner now, but must say:-

Viv, your generosity is breathtaking. Your legal opinon on Alsabella's site said it all - and you don't charge for this?! What am I gonna do with you?!!! Pro bona doesn't pay the bills :-)

Thank you.

Dolores, Lizzy,2345, Lizzy, and anyone I missed on a quick scan: I so look forward to enjoying a quiet read of your comments later.

Ta ra for now, darlings.
xo

viv said...

Hiya Leigh - thanks for that - doing some pro bono stuff can be very worthwhile:-)

leigh3 said...

M'Lady.

Am trying to burn dinner. Don't distract me.

Pro bono (or pro bona as I would say!!) is priceless only for kind souls ...

I see you are one.

Now, Mrs Future George Clooney: allow me to burn dinner...
xo

viv said...

Hiya Leigh

Cheers for the Honorary Title - I can think of a few who may disagree with you..Doc is not a Doc, I am not a lawyer..denial and the linguistic skills of criminals eh!

Even some burnt dinner would be nice so bring me some meals on wheels please!

Luv ya and ta
Viv xxxxxxx

atardi said...

Yes Viv,

I know you would do very well as a law lecturer. You said to Dolores it's one thing I am good at. I will put it this way :that's one of the things you are good at. You know the law but you also have the skill to explain it.

As an educator I know that it's not about how much you know as a teacher but it's about how you explain it to your students.

Dolores said it very right: The gift you have depends on how you use it.

Thank you again.

viv said...

Atardi

Ta darling, I am considering my future employment options:-)

Luv Viv x

dolores said...

Atardi,
What do you say we have a Saturday Kitchen with Leighs cooking skills.
And a Saturday Law session with Viv,anyone else who can contribute is welcome.

XX D

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
Yes I do remember Rpops on the DE in the last few weeks with her statements re April, interesting he's now posting that the 7th and 8th April are key days as the 7th April is the provisional date the PJ have for their visit to England for the questioning of the Tapas friends, I hope as the DE demolished Archer they will do the same with Gerry if he and Kate are found guilty and charged. Did I imagine this, am unsure but seem to recall hearing GB say on the 19th March on the news ,that the Mccanns had received an apology from the DE ?
If that is correct I will be worried re the truth coming out but hope I am wrong in thinking he commented. Lizzy

2345 said...

Felicity,

Do you know how long ago DE published the 'offending' comments ?

If my memory serves me right it was several months ago. Most DE articles have been pro abduction - fruits of M 3's labours, false witness accounts etc.

atardi said...

Dolores,

Sounds very good to me. I have learned so much about the law during the last period on this blog.

So Leigh3 and Viv?

Leigh3 it's an good idea so we won't be 2 ships passing in the evening.

atardi said...

Viv,

You have so may options.

dolores said...

Atardi,
I will contribute Italian cooking recipes.As I cook it every day.
And also love all artistic skills.
What about you?
XX D

viv said...

Dolores

Sounds great to me, so long as we prioritise and Leigh's food comes first:-)

Lizzy - re meeting dates. Remember how the TAPAS had a conference at the end of November, I think, because they thought that was when the PJs were coming. Now I wonder if it has been decided to have another witness conference where the rather strange solicitor who even appeared on Panorama, Mr Smethurst will once again seek to whip this lot into shape, right before they get interviewed? Just a thought..Those dates fall on a Mon and a Wed.

RP kept saying the McCanns were going back in March or was it April to embarrass Portugal's tourist industry...clearly a bit of a damaging and premature announcement! Maybe they got some better legal advice in the meantime, as in, you set foot back over there and you will not be ocming back!

I do not know whether GB commented on them receiving an apology, I would be surprised if he did.

Hiya 2345

What they are complaining about is 42 articles in particular over the whole 10 months period. My clear recollection is the DE were behaving in a very cynical way. One day they would print the story according to Clarence Mitchell and the next day they would completely rubbish it by writing a very anti article. They would have known full well they were leaving themselves open to a libel action which is why I believe they went into this eyes wide open and with a longer term plan in mind. To demolish Clarence Mitchell and the McCanns in a big way, just like they did Lord Archer and make themselves a fortune in the process. It pays to remember that what they printed about Lord Archer was correct but during the libel trial, due to Archer's perjured evidence they lost. They will not lose with the McCanns once they are convicted though, will they?

atardi said...

Dolores,

It would be a pleasure some Italian recipes. You know what my son loves to eat 6 days in the week? Pasta with pesto.

I can contribute with some Dutch/Spanish lessons, Dutch/Caribean recipes and some tips about gardening.

2345 said...

Felicity,

As a matter of interest I checked the safeguard criminal authors etc. print in their books which I'm sure you already know - "Any dialogue or behaviour ascribed to the characters ... real as well as imagine is entirely fictitious ... living or dead is purely coincidental da de da de da".

McCanns' aim has clearly been to avoid requestioning in or out of Court, maintain their freedom and make millions from suing all and sundry thereafter. Plans in execution will ensure none of the corrupt, of which there are many in 'high places', end up with 'egg on the face'. The 'heart rending picture accompanying DE's apology was carefully selected for maximum impact for the sympathy vote as it was in the beginning is now and forever shall be.

I believe it will take years for the truth to fully emerge, here and abroad and that McCanns' veiled threats of suing will not silence many who have been deeply affected by it. There'll be books, albeit fiction, with legal safeguards; this case is an inspiration to writers of crime - a missing child, political intrigue, threat, menace, intimidation - you, Alsa, 3A's and I'm sure others have the script.

I said weeks ago that Brown is not unelected President of Britain, nor is Clarence Governor of cyberspace. The outcome of this case will be engineered by them, but no-one has the power to silence opinion. This case will be used as an inspiration, a literary launchpad and, I believe, a film - a blockbuster on a par with "Gone With The Wind".
i designed to

"Gone With The Wind" - came to mind for several reasons; the author was a humble nurse who achieved global acclaim

dolores said...

Atardi/Viv,
It's coming together!!
Leigh first agreed.
Atardi, I am making for tomorrows family Easter meal tagliatelle,meatballs, chicken and beef olives in tomato sauce to start with,so won't be around much.
One of my favorite pasta dishes is also spahgetti alla vongole(clam sauce) but there are loads more variations of pasta.
XX D

dolores said...

Atardi,
Your Carribean recipes sound interesting.I like trying different countries cuisine.
XX D

viv said...

Hiya 2345

Good post and I agree with most of it apart from the bit about Brown and Clarence engineering the outcome. Their trial will take place, in all probability in a Portuguese Court of law in front of three judges properly hearing all the evidence in the case. Neither Brown or Clarence Mitchell will have any rights of audience in the proper criminal process. Forgive, but that is a bizarre suggestion.

Dolores and Atardi

All that delicious food is making me very hungry!

Luv Viv x

viv said...

RP is reporting in its most recent post:

" Apparently the front page apologies printed by the Express group newspapers has seen a revival in sympathy and donations into the the Find Madeleine Fund"


Has anyone seen this reported in the press, anywhere at all??

Viv x

dolores said...

Viv ,
I would gladly have you join us,there is plenty to share.And anyone else who cares to join us.

XX D

viv said...

Dolores

That would be nice darling, maybe someday I will:-)

Luv viv x

dolores said...

Viv, I think RP and the chain gang are living in a fools paradise,and wishful thinking. It does not impress me one bit,they are full of b@@@@@@@e.

xxD

atardi said...

Dolores,

Only my son eats pasta with pesto. We (daughters and I) love pasta.At this moment we are addicted to Garo Falo/Schiaffoni. Have a sister in law who is married to an Italian man.

The best food I/we have ever had was in Italy.
How will you prepare your meatballs tomorrow? Wiil you give the recipe after your mother's birthday?

Anonymous said...

the difference between the Archer case and the McCann case was that the archer case was vigourously defended . Can you fd a libel case settled out of court that has been overturned ? Of course the decision doesnt mean the McCanns are not invoved in Maddies disappearance but its a step in the right direction . Of course, all the antis are putting their "spin" on the decision .

dolores said...

Atardi,
If Viv does'nt mind I don't mind sharing my secret recipe with you.I add things you will not find in recipe books.
Every region in Italy has a different variation of cooking Italian food,and where we come from between Rome and Naples we consider the best,of course:)
XX D

2345 said...

Felicity,

I truly hope you're right, I'm not so sure. I never underestimate the sole aim of muddying the waters for ten consecutive months -or the ultimate goal.

Have an enjoyable evening ... must eat !

viv said...

Anon

Obtaining money under false pretences/seeking to pervert the course of justice are very serious criminal offences, you can rest assured this settlement would be overturned as plenty certain have! The criminal law has a set procedure for recovery of proceeds of crime which may even save the Daily Express the hassle of pursuing them in civil proceedings. If you think them scamming another half a million pounds in the name of their dead daughter was a step in the right direction, I feel sorry for you!

There is no judicial "decision" for us to spin!

I am afraid you pontificate about the law and make yourself look very silly in the process, in fact you sound like a criminal yourself!

viv said...

Dolores,

I would love you to share your recipe with us!

Viv xxxx

Anonymous said...

Viv , so you have evidence that Maddie dead ?
no you dont . So your post and accusations are baseless . Your professed legal knowledge may impress others , but not me .

viv said...

Hiya 2345

The McCann machine has been trying to spin them out of trouble for the last 10 months in some incredibly perverse ways. Judges will hold that conduct, and the amount of police time wasted, in serious contempt, and deal with them for it, accordingly!

Viv x

viv said...

Anon, of course I do not have evidence that Madeleine is dead but I have a firm belief that the police do.

I have a clear idea of your identity from the aggressive tone of your post and think you had better leave.

Further posts will be deleted, unless they are deemed by me to be polite and reasonable.

atardi said...

Hi Viv,

Off topic for 5 seconds,

Must send/sms daughter football results from Holland (PSV-Groningen). Am not a real football fan but like to see her team playing.

They won all 3 matches today in Paris.
Had to share it with you because of your support this morning.

Viv,

Who is GB?

And what is your opinion about Roy Greenslade from the Guardian?

I have sent you an article he wrote today.

viv said...

Hiya Atardi

I am delighted about the great result!

GB is Gordon Brown, our Prime Minister, leastways I think that is who Lizzie meant.

I will have a look at the article and thanks.


Viv x

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
stormbreaker said...

Anon,
There is a good debate going on here.
Please go to the other blogs.

stormbreaker said...

Sorry Viv,
but this behaviour is very annoying from some people.

viv said...

If you do not like what you read on this blog, then go elsewhere, after all, as I have repeatedly told you, you are not wanted, Supertroll..you are just an aggressive, argumentative stalker who likes to abuse and provoke. Do not talk to me about freedom of speech - your avowed intention is to stop our freedom of speech on here. You behave as a psychopath - seeking to control others. I can tell you this, you are wasting your time with me and Ratonthebeam and may have cause to seriously regret your conduct, just like Kate and Gerry McCann, there is always a judgment day.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
dolores said...

Mark,
Before you go, what is your purpose in defending child neglection?

docmac said...

Hi Viv and all

I see you are all getting ready for recipe night. I won't have much to contribute then ;-). Lizzy, if you are around I see i missed your greeting last night. A very happy Easter to you.

Viv, that is not Supertroll. You have mail, by the way.

Anonymous said...

dolores
my purpose is to defend justice .
Charge the McCanns with neglect by all means . Charge them with manslaughter , murder whatever , but let the trial take place in a court of law , not on the internet .

viv said...

Hello Doc

What you are not one of those sexy male chefs then, how disappointing!

Hope you and your family are having a lovely time - what is the temp, dare I ask, I am bloody freezin, it keeps trying to flippin snow, at the end of March, how very dare it!

I just referred to the rules and entirely agree:-)

Viv x

docmac said...

To LGC and Rat, if you are reading

Happy Purim! I know it's the tradition to get blindingly drunk on this celebratory occasion, but be careful ladies.

atardi said...

Dolores,

We have been in Rome and Toscane. In Rome we could eat home made food. That was the best I have ever had.

In Toscane we were with some Jewish friends and they knew the best restaurants to visit.

dolores said...

Docmac,
A Happy Easter to you and your family.I hope the eggs don't melt:)
xxD

atardi said...

Viv/Lizzy,

Was Gordon Brown on your national tv saying the Mc Canns received apologies from the DE?

docmac said...

Viv, during the day it's still mid to high 20s Celsius. Was over 30 on a couple of days this week. Evenings getting quite cool now, down to aroud 14 to 16C.

I actually cook quite well, but am never going to win any contests! My speciality is Thai and Indian, and of course every male in this country believes he is the best at braaiing! To be honest the wife is better than me at that, she is a chef after all, so I'm the second best at braaiing in SA ;-).

atardi said...

Hey Docmac,

Wat doen jullie met Pasen daar?

If it is not Supertroll who is that anonymous person?

docmac said...

Thanks Dolores, same to you :-). We'll get up early to do the egg hunt, otherwise it is going to be messy. I see it's a white Easter in parts of the UK. Be careful when you spot an 'egg' that it's not a 'dog egg' lololololololol!!!

docmac said...

Hi Atardi

We do the fish supper on Friday, though I'm not religious we enjoy the tradition. It's always cold pickled fish and salads. Sunday it's the egg hunt for the kids and then we head out for the day as a family. Tomorrow we will break with tradition as we are house hunting at the moment. Monday the extended family get together and have a huge feast. Not much else, really.

Anon is Mark.

southerncross said...

Goeienaand atardi,docmac et al

Oh how I long for a nice braai,snoek on the coals .Atardi our tradition was barbeques over the Easter weekend, perhaps a leg of mutton(sometimes cold with salads) mostly seafood though.
Hope you are all doing well

dolores said...

All this food sounds divine,it's wonderful to share customs on special occasions.

leigh3 said...

Anonymous,

I am interested in your unique perspective on libel law. Pray tell: how can a settlement out of court be overturned? Who would object?

The mice, perhaps? No.

An agreement between two parties suits both parties.

Please do give me your innovative legal opinion if M'luds and M'ladies are wrong.

I'll check later. Am trying to do 3 things at once, but am captivated by your interpretation of libel law. It's unique, alright. Clearly, you can teach me something new. I'll check back later. Gotta go, for now.

viv said...

Hiya all I am back!

Atardi not sure about GB I have not seen or heard him on TV - I dont think he would comment on this.

Not sure about salads at the mo! Luke is just dishing up a lovely sun din with all the veg. I got let off because face /ear all swollen with nasty infection but will try my best to eat it:-)

could i sack him for being so late with my meal lol

atardi said...

Docmac,

I think most catholic people eat fish on friday. We bought it also yetsterday but I wasn't able to eat it.

Tomorrow we will also have the egg hunt for our youngest.


Hope you will have success tomorrow with house hunting. I know you need it.

My husband is the best chef in the world.

Anonymous said...

Leigh ,
I will make no more posts on a blog where they may be removed on the whim of an individual . That is not the freedom of expression that we all expect .

docmac said...

Hello Southerncross!

By feast I mean braai of course, plus all the accoutrements. I have an indoor braai, but everyone prefers to get out if possible, so a few bring their Webers along. I am not a snoek fan at all - all those bones! Give me an angel, yellowtail or even kingklip any day. Much prefer my flesh red though. Rump steak, Karoo lamb, Morris' boerewors, sosaties and pork sausies. Onions and patat in foil in the coals and mielies on the grid. Did you do much potjiekos? I want to like it, but I just don't!

Atardi you lucky thing :-). I lived in Dordrecht for 6 months and I remember eating a LOT. I am still mad about the cheeses, but they are very hard to come by here.

SeaWitch said...

Hello, Viv and all,

Wow, this is a first for me. It'll probably be a one off, as well, but I come in peace to wish you all a very Happy Easter Sunday.

x

southerncross said...

hallo docmac

We had a quite miserable weekend here, had to settle for bobotie and geelrys and quinces-weather did not permit a braai :( My man braai die lekkerste fillet wat ons stop met murgbene en dan toebind met 'n stukkie tou.Probeer dit asb!

I sometimes get hold of good old LM prawns,love my potjiekos as well- but I must admit I am a foodie,have been experimenting for years.
My apologies all, but needed a lighthearted chat tonight

docmac said...

Seawitch

Thank you for your magnanimous and gracious good wishes. A very happy Easter Sunday to you and your family and loved ones too. I dared not venture onto J4MF to say this as it would be deleted before you saw it.

hope4truth said...

Hello All

Having a quick look we have freinds staying this weekend so trying to be a good host xxx

southerncross said...

Docmac, skies,ek het bedoel die murg van marrowbone, darem nie die hele murgbeen in die fillet nie.lol

docmac said...

Southerncross

You are lucky to have bobotie. My wife hates it and I can't make a nice one, so I hardly ever get to eat it. I have never, ever tasted prawns (or kreef, mussels, oysters etc). I have quite a simple philosophy when it comes to food. If it comes in a shell or is ugly when alive, I don't eat it!!

Praat jy van 'n volle bief fillet? Sny julle dit oop om hom te laat stop of rol hy die ding? What are murgbene, as opposed to other bones? I know murg is marrow, so are those the knuckle bones etc? Are the bones lamb or beef bones, as bones of bovine origin would be too big?

docmac said...

OK you answered my question lololol!!!

docmac said...

Hi Hope, nice to see you.

Get back to those friends. Everyone will still be here tomorrow :-).

southerncross said...

Docmac,lol,
Yes buy a nice fillet,'n paar murgbene(bees)wat jou slagter halveer(in die lengte,is dit vertikaal?),braai dit tot murg sag is,skep uit en stop jou fillet daarmee.
Braai die fillet(die murg smelt letterlik in en maak dit ongelooflik sag en sappig).Kan jy dink wat babelvis mee gaan opkom of 'n vriendelike vertaler wat hierdie gesprek gaan oordra?Lol

atardi said...

Southerncross,

Not being rude. Was sms-ing with daughter. It's very cold cold here so we it will be gourmetting tomorrow.

docmac said...

Southerncross

Dankie, ek sal dit probeer. Dit klink heerlik. Net nie die naweek nie, want die spyskaart is klaar tot die fynste detail beplan.

When I try it, I think I'll do half the fillet as you say and mix the marrow with crushed garlic and chillies for my half. Yum! I eat chillies with everything. There is a small independent speciality ice cream manufacturer near the hospital. They make a to-die-for chilli-chocolate flavour. I'm addicted to the stuff. I never thought these flavours would complement each other so well. If anyone offers this variety over there you should definitely try it.

southerncross said...

Hallo atardi

Have read your posts and can really say I know how you feel.Letting go when your children get older is a quite dynamical experience. It is rather easy to protect them when they are young and fulfill their physical needs but as they get older and spread their wings,one tends to worry so much more about them.
I hope you have a lovely weekend,it is freezing cold here at the moment

southerncross said...

Docmac,die knoffel en rissies klink na 'n briljante idee! Laat weet asb hoe dit werk! Die murg loop nie rerig uit,so jy hoef dit nie noodwendig met tou te bind. Ons braai dit gewoonlik in die Bosveld,as ons daar is. Ook hier geleer om ons eie boerewors te maak want die namaaksels wat ons hier kry,se inhoud en konsistensie is baie suspisieus.
Enjoy the lovely mooiste Kaap.My hart trek met 'n punt Onrus toe vanaand.

Good night all,lekker slaap

leigh3 said...

Evening All,

Delighted to see all this talk of food. Personally, I think burnt offerings have a certain charm :-) It shows willing if nothing else!


One day, one place, we may meet and share our recipes for food, and success.

Until then, and I beg your indulgence now, I know it's Mark. He was always one of my favourites, along with U2.

If we could forgive each other for emotional responses, and consider rational issues, then perhaps we might appreciate a debate based on aspirations, ideals (apart from facts and figures).

What kind of world do we want? Mark speaks for the McCann view; I defend the absent child's view. I would rather have a worthy adversary than a dumb one. Respect.

We all get a bit uppity sometimes; a bit fiery, and personal.

I side with children first, every time, all the time, but I'd be a fool to ignore the counter arguments.

My first posts on the DE warned about libel law. Offenders persisted; some posters bludgeoned on.

Mark and U2 understood that issue, albeit imperfectly at times.

I tried to warn posters that Mark Warner staff are witnesses; McCann supporters attempt to deflect blame by blaming MW habits, and a non existent baby listening service; that is defamatory to a big company with a big budget and plenty of time to sue later if the libel persists.

IMO, Mark was irritable sometimes, and very annoying to others who disagreed with him. U2 was a very clever young man; a wit beyond his years.

Criminal court or libel court. This case will be in court, imo. Viv explained the DE apology in plain form today. She is extraordinarily patient, and generous.

OK, I've had my say. Back to food glorious food. There'll be an open invitation later this year to my house for burnt offerings :-)

Dolores, Atardi, Hope, Lizzy: just kiddin' ! Am not a bad cook, but would love your recipes ahead of time, am sure.

Viv and docmac: fast now, eat later!

xo, darlings.

leigh3 said...

2345.

You are welcome anytime, of course.

atardi said...

Hi Hope,

Just be a good host. Your friends will stay forever but we won't. But I'm sure we will keep posting to each other.

Enjoy your evening.

Will read you tomorrow.

leigh3 said...

Southerncross.

Oops! You too. Welcome here, but I can't speak Afrikaans.

docmac said...

Lekker slaap Southerncross.

leigh3 said...

Seawitch,

Happy Easter to you too. God bless you and yours. Very kind of you to make the peace.

southerncross said...

Hi Leigh
Pardon the Afrikaans,I know it is rude to post in my native language,but got carried away with a certain aspect. Goodnight :)

atardi said...

Hey Seawitch,

Happy Easter also.

irina said...

Hello everyone a Happy Easter!!!
Family celebrations, friends visiting, holidays... happy life!!! Was not it the same for McCanns family last May, or rather it should have been. But for McCann’s children it was simple hell and neglect.

How different they are from many!!!

Their child was killed by them, according to the dogs and DNA, and I believe both, their child was killed on holidays, with friends, with closest family. (By parents, according to the dog's specialist opinions and FSS).

How different McCanns are from many.

Viv, Doc, Leigh, 2345, Dolores, Hope, Atardy, Rat, Southerncross, stormbreaker, happy Easter for you and your loved ones!

Madeleine, dear child, happy Easter!
Hope DX will print: Madeleine, Sorry!!!

atardi said...

Docmac,

Welke Nederlandse kaas nind jij lekker?

atardi said...

Docmac,

It's not nind but vind.

leigh3 said...

P.S.

I know libel law, and that is why I have a particular admiration for Viv's patient explanation of it to others today, and why anonymous (Mark's) comment earlier intrigues me.

How the innocent are deceived, although they seek truth...

docmac said...

Happy Easter to you and yours Irina.

Hi Leigh, I just nipped away to get a little chilli-choc ice cream. I'll fast when I'm dead. I've missed having a chat with you this evening, and now you are here I have to go. Must be up in around 5 hours to hide eggs! To you and everyone else, have a blessed Easter Sunday, hopefully with the people that you love.

Goodnight and sweet dreams x

atardi said...

Southerncross,

I will learn by experiance. It's our oldest one. She had some tournaments but all the tournaments were here. Yes we know we must let her go.

It's freezing here.

leigh3 said...

Dear Irina,

Glad to see you. You are right:-

MADELEINE BETH MCCANN: SORRY.

That is a headline worth waiting for. It can only be written in their hearts by her family, I think.

Have a great weekend, Irina, friend of children.

leigh3 said...

Goodnight and sweet dreams to you and yours too, docmac. Happy Easter. The children love it so.

x

atardi said...

Irina,

Happy Easter to you also.

I think we will have to wait untillwe get that headline published.

"Sorry Madeleine".

viv said...

Hello all I am back again but maybe you have gone - what a nice discussion.

Seawitch Best Wishes to you also for Easter and nice to see you drop by. Please call again:-)

viv said...

Atardi

I forgot your email earlier - checking it now!

viv x

docmac said...

Atardi

Just brushed that choc off my teeth and came to shut down and thought I must answer you! We get the commoner varieties here of course, like Edam, Gouda etc. and there are a few speciality Dutch cheesemakers around, but of course they can't compare to the original. Perhaps they can actually, maybe it's just better to eat local cheese in the place where it originates?

Die wat ek baie goed onthou is NAGELKAAS (my gunsteling), BEEMSTER (die baie oud een) en by ontbyt (ons het elke dag kaas gehad met ontbyt) CANTENAAR en REYPENAER. Rypenaer is ook fantasties. Ons het baie ander probeer, maar die is die beste wat ek onthou.

Have you got any suggestions for next time? Please post them here and I will read it tomorrow when I have a chance.

Goeienag.

dolores said...

A Happy and peaceful Easter to all,
Seawitch and Mark also.
All we ever want is Madeleine to have the justice she so rightly deserves.

xxxx

leigh3 said...

Happy Easter, Viv.

As you know, I am one of those pesky Christian types, so I won't post tomorrow. I'll be on my knees in church (only a short time, if any trolls hope to make fun of that).

I'm tempted to say more, but I won't. Tis too tedious for non-believers. Just this:

One child is every child. God wishes it so.

Night night, Viv. Thank you for your extraordinary generosity. See you next time.

xo

viv said...

Dolores, Leigh, Doc and any others still around

Whatever you are doing tomorrow it will be with the family, including all the family. children are the most precious thing.

I hope you enjoy your prayers tomorrow Leigh and that some of them will be answered for all our little children.

Let us be united at this time in Justice for Little Madeleine, wherever she may bexxxxxxxxxx

atardi said...

The 7 th of April.


This site Business directory
23 March 2008 Login » Register »
News
Portuguese police to quiz Tapas Nine in Britain in final bid to solve Madeleine mystery
By GERARD COUZENS - More by this author » Last updated at 22:36pm on 22nd March 2008

Comments Comments
Madeleine McCann

Madeleine McCann: Missing since May last year
Portuguese police are set to fly to Britain on April 7 to interview members of the so-called Tapas Nine in a last bid to solve the Madeleine McCann mystery.

Investigators are pinning their hopes on fresh interviews with the seven holiday friends who were eating tapas with Kate and Gerry McCann when their four-year-old daughter disappeared.

They are thought to be particularly keen to reinterview David Payne, Jane Tanner and her partner, Russell O'Brien.

Prosecutors in Portugal have rejected police requests to call the McCanns in for a second round of questioning.

But they have agreed to an application to quiz the McCanns' former spokeswoman Justine McGuiness and a psychologist who comforted GP Kate, 39, after Madeleine went missing.

A source close to the case said: "The Policia Judiciaria had prepared various questions it wanted Kate and Gerry to face but they were crossed off the list of priorities on the advice of public prosecutors.

"They felt it was a waste of time because the McCanns would refuse to answer the questions, a right that Portuguese law grants official suspects."

Portuguese police indicated recently they were ready to spend more than two months in Britain.

They hope to wrap up the interrogations within a week but are packing for a much longer stay.

Scroll down for more...
Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien

New Interview: Jane Tanner and partner Russell O'Brien

Dr Payne, 41, a cardiovascular researcher from Leicester, was the last person outside the McCann family to see Madeleine at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz on May 3. Gerry asked him to check on his wife and children while he was having a tennis lesson at about 6.30pm.

Dr O'Brien, 36, from Exeter, was away from the group for up to 45 minutes between 9.30pm and 10.15pm tending his own child who was being sick in his apartment.

He told police he had changed her bed linen, but staff at the Ocean Club deny any change of sheets was requested.

Attention has also focused on 36-year-old Miss Tanner's claim that she saw a man carrying a girl from the McCanns' apartment at about

9.15pm - when another witness says he was outside the flat at the same time but did not see her or the mystery man.

The trio have denied reports they intended changing their original police statements. The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell says the friends are keen to help police and want the reinterviews to take place as soon as possible.
* |
* Nowpublic

Comment Add your comment Comments (0)

I think I have been deleeting too much.

viv said...

Hiya Atardi

I had a look at Mr Greenslade from The Guardian and see he is proposing people boucott Express Newspapers in retaliation for their coverage of the McCann case.

People are always free to vote with their feet, that is our democratic right. No one tells us what to buy or what to read. But I am surprised at a Guardian reporter encouraging retribution and another newspaper's way of doing business. I am not saying The Express are right, but newspapers, like individuals are all different and seek to please differing audiences. Those who actively seek publicity and assume celebrity status should not expect the press to only write nice things about them, the press may also reflect public opinion.

That was the risk the McCanns took. They were libelled and they have been compensated. That was a strict application of the law. What of the morals of the protagonists in this, both could be described as deficient IMO. Did Mr Greenslade really suggest an answer, if so I think it as an overly simplistic one and people who like the Express will continue to buy it. That does not include me! but I did welcome the opportunity to have my say on their forum even if it was a horrible place to be on many occasions. Still, there were so many lovely humatarians and my life has been enriched by "meeting" them all xxxx

Viv x

atardi said...

See/read you all tomorrow,

Hope to sleep well. Daughter told they had a boring evening. They had to wait too long for the boat trip and had to cancell it.

Leigh3, hope to read you next Monday.

viv said...

Hiya Atardi

I think I have already seen that somewhere but thanks for posting for everyone who has not.

It seems to be getting more certain they will arrive on 7 April and the main three they are interested in. If David Payne is lying it means Madeleine could have died hours before this as there are no other independent sightings of her. Kate and Madeleine, I believe, are reported to be missing or at least not seen ny anyone all afternoon. I believe the so called 2.29 pic is a fake, as many have alleged. Mainly by looking at the lack of sunburn to her arm when in the tennis balls pic her arm looks badly burned. I do think this must have been taken earlier in the week. David Payne will be in very serious trouble indeed, if, as appears, he is lying about this. The other two, at least equally as serious, if not more so. I really would not like to be in their position and feel they will be made arguidos.

Viv x

viv said...

Atardi

Too bad your daughter had a boring time and missed the boat trip. If only everything in life was perfect:-)

At least she had the great results!

Look forward to reading you tomorrow.

Luv Viv x

Anonymous said...

Hi does anyone know what has happened to Ironside?

alsabella said...

Hi there, I would like to wish you all a very Happy Easter! Boa Páscoa!

viv said...

Hiya Alsabella darling sorry I was not around;

Have a Lovely Easter, minha querida

Boa Noite

Com amor

Viv xxxxxxxxx

viv said...

Anon

I have not seen Ironside on here for a while and not sure where he is.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
Perhaps he has been locked up for posting defamatory remarks on blogs.

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
Not sure if your still up, was looking on here before bed, have just been on the 3 arguidos site and have seen a post saying that it is reported in the mirror that Murat has had his computer and personal possessions returned by the Portugese police. This is evidently in tomorrows Mirror...Lizzy

Bianca said...

Hi Viv, Claudia, Docmac, and all the wonderful people who write on this blog ... Happy Easter Day!

Viv, I will read your blog on Kate today (fascinating) but comment in a day or so (am a bit rushed!).

Dolores - yes, you are correct, I am of Italian background :-)

My mother is a New Zealander of Irish Catholic heritage, and my father is from Salerno in Italy. Dad came to Australia as a kid in the 50's, while mum didn't get here till 1970 (me born Sydney 1974).

Now - (I had to ring my dad to ask him how to write this! LOL) ..

La Pasqua Felice a tutta famiglia! (I hope I remembered that correctly!).

What part of Italy is your family from Dolores? My sister went to Italy a few years back but I haven't had the pleasure yet :-(

Anyway, have to get ready now as we are going to folks house soon for Easter dinner (my nonna will be bringing lasagna and Neapolitan pizza .. yummy!)

P.S. "Chardy" is simply the Aussie slang for Chardonnay :-)

Bianca said...

Oops, only just realised it's not Easter Day yet for the majority of posters here ... sorry!

Happy Easter for TOMORROW! (the bimbo strikes again!).

And Viv, just realised your blog on Kate (Did She Kill Madeleine?) goes back to early March, however, still fascinating and I will read it anyway).

:-)

Bianca said...

Okay, I know I said I'd wait to comment but read the article on Kate and just HAVE to have a quick word -

Wizard - you put forward a VERY plausible argument! Aside from the technical inconsistencies of the stories of the Tapas group (conflicting accounts of "checking" times, and the like), there are some glaring EMOTIONAL inconsistencies that we here on the anti side all agree on. We can not help but notice, for eg, that parents supposedly grieving from the shock and horror of losing a child in a foreign country are incredibly out of character by playing tennis, sitting by a swimming pool, or having the presence of mind to make up glossy flyer's and register their missing child's name as an official trademark! Regardless of Kate's supposedly frantic initial reaction (i.e., screaming "they've taken her!") it's the stuff that came in the days and weeks AFTER this event that stand out as so strange. It really does appear that this couple's "grief" was staged, almost commercially packaged, to appeal to a certain "market" (i.e., the Find Madeleine fund, that was later used to pay off their personal mortgage!). Why were these people so seemingly calm, organised, and focused on collecting cash?? This does NOT seem like the behaviour of truly grieving parents of a missing 4 year old girl!

It has to be mentioned though, that months down the track, both Kate and Gerry DID start to appear like grieving parents, or at least, like people who have some big tragedy on their conscience. Kate's haggard appearance is something that can not be faked, and Gerry started to look as if he had a permanent tear in his eye ... why? Could it be that the grief of losing their child has only just hit them?? Personally, I doubt it. If you look at the parents of other missing children (inc. Shannon's mother) the reaction is instant, and does not need multiple months to sink in! My personal take is that their's is a different kind of grief. The kind of grief that sneaks up on you slowly - laced with guilt - and ways heavy on your conscience. Grief, yes, but not the sort that Kate and Gerry would have initially had us believe!

Whether it is Kate covering for Gerry or (the more likely scenario, imo) Gerry covering for Kate, the emotional inconsistencies of these two make it almost impossible, for me anyway, to think that some kind of cover-up is NOT taking place. Their reactions to this tragedy are just too odd, and considering Kate's well-documented problems handling Madeleine, it's tempting to say that "mum's the word"!!

2345 said...

Happy Easter Everyone,

Ironside was on 3 A's yesterday.

2345 said...

Felicity,

DE was CM's favoured choice and they printed every article he placed before them for 10 consecutive months. False sightings, the result of bribery and corruption always took precedence over genuine news, i.e. Jersey Case.

Latest PR, apology, was DE's main online thread with all comments barred.

I support the view of the Guardian.
CM's strategy from day one was media manipulation to sway public opinion. This will continue until Brown & CM reach their goals; the apology was simply a brainwashing tactic - powerful words - libel, court, judge, judgment, no evidence - used to exonerate and pardon shortly before PJ * dosier of evidence arrives.

True labour tactics - war based on lies ... weapons of mass destruction where Dr Kelly confirmed none existed ... questionable death thereafter. Award for damages to prime suspects in their daughter's disappearance ... 'no evidence' where evidence is known to exist.

People gravely under estimate the power and the tactics applied to exonerate the McCanns and labour politicians, their staunch allies.

The message in the latest spin was clear - McCanns are in the driving seat, not the police. McCanns are innocent - those saying otherwise will be successfully sued for libel by big guns Carter Ruck.
Threat and menace - true labour style.

Those who believed without question last PR stunt will swallow without question the next ... always carefully planned and executed to influence public opinion.

No proof exists to substantiate legal writ, judgment or the alleged sum paid for damages.
CM has all the necessary contacts for 'convincing' photo outside 'Court'.

A photograph of a person standing proudly by a Porche does not make the person it's owner .... those viewing it may well presume it to be case.

CM - highly experienced laborite spinmaster - DE, his favoured media manipulator.

As a professional, reputable newspaper, the Guardian's comments are justifiable and understandable - they clearly support the police in this case - not the prime suspects.

hope4truth said...

2345

Happy Easter...

Intresting post I think what they forget is people are not stupid and when a child goes missing it is tragic beyond reason and although the parents were neglegent sympathy will be there for them as none of us would want to be in the same position....

When spin is involved when a child is missing to show the parents who jog play tennis and dont bother to search for their child as the victims people make up their own minds as when a child is missing no spin is needed as no one would wish what had happend on thier worst enemy...

I wont be voting Labour again and have voted for them along with my family all my voting life...

Parents should never be put above their child children need adutlts to protect them this awful case in Jersey shows the lack of care and love for defensless children and it stinks.

If parents of a neglected child are held up as saints then we may as well scrap social services as children will no longer matter.

2345 said...

hope4truth,

Happy Easter to you and yours ... had a fluttering of snow in south of England, now rain - log fire and chocolate therapy ! Seeing family later bar our daughter who's in New York.

Have a great day.

hope4truth said...

2345

Yes been snowing here but now just wet... Have a lovely day xxx

hope4truth said...

All

Happy Easter to you all. Have a lovely day...

Just said goodbye to our friends and are now going out for dinner with my in laws then out for tea with my family...

May see you all later if not have a lovely day xxx

hope4truth said...

Hello

Dont know if you have seen this...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=542332&in_page_id=1770

There were 11 comments left about it when I looked in and 10 out of the 11 were not Pro. One person thought that the police should have done more and was putting the blame with them.

Shame the parents thought less of their children than dinner with people they were so into the police would not have had to waste so much time if the parents had just done what comes naturally to most of us.

Wizard said...

Good Morning All and Happy Easter greetings,

just for a moment I would like to return to the Daily Express donation to the Find Madeleine Fund. Richard Desmond, owner of the Express, is said to earn £1m a week (Times 20:03:08) therefore the Express settlement cost him just over half a week’s pay (tax concessions not taken into consideration)

Putting this figure into perspective if you earned £30,000K take home pay £20K weekly earning approx. £400 this settlement would equate to a fine of about £215 a bit of a nuisance but nothing to lose sleep over is it.

2345 said...

Claim for Compensation :

DE would use highly experienced Libel Law specialists - on a par with Carter Ruck - when faced with claims for damages.

Out of Court settlements agreed between both party's Lawyers - without a hearing and Court Judgment - would be made on the strict understanding that DE's Lawyers had acted in their best interests whilst paying a claimant a substantial sum for damages.

In Archer's case, DE is challenging a Court's Judgment & Ruling as opposed to mutually agreed 'out of Court' settlements.

For DE Lawyers to agree to pay prime suspects in their daughter's disappearance a substantial sum for, i.e. 'damaging' headline, DE Lawyers would have to be in agreement with claimant's Lawyers that the claim was, indeed, valid in terms of Laws of Libel.

Once paid, DE would be unable to retrieve the money it's lawyers agreed out of Court by processes applicable in the Archer Case.

DE Lawyers agreeing substantial out of court settlements do so on the understanding that no future claim can be made against the claimant to retrieve it. DE Lawyers are responsible for ensuring any claim is legally valid.

If it later transpired it was not, or was in any way flawed, the responsibility lies fairly and squarely with DE's Lawyers.

The only means by which DE can re-claim any mutually agreed 'out of Court' settlements is to sue their own lawyers for compensation on the basis of gross professional negligence.

The onus is on DE Lawyers to ensure claims are totally valid prior to agreeing to, and paying awards for damages.

Interestingly, DE claimed 'no evidence' in the McCanns case yet in the article beneath printed the headline " the FATANTIST ... "
This was not a word used by the Judge in her Heather McCartney's case .... it was DE's judgmental comment.

Wizard said...

I've just been reading an artile in the Express

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view.38249

Which is one of the most biased pieces of journalism I've seen for some time. Article on parenting - it allows comments.

lizzy said...

Hi
I'm not sure how interested anybody is, but just thought I'd say the DE has an article about Murat with a HYS 4 comments on it...Lizzy

2345 said...

hope4truth,

CM's on full throttle with media manipulation. He's used the Mail as heavily as DE.

Predictable ... DE PROCLAIMS - NO EVIDENCE ... prejudicial to Police .... next move ... false claims of Police incompetence appear in The Mail.

I mentioned Dr Kelly in an earlier post - an honest, hardworking highly respected scientist - a patriot. As with the Police in this case, his job and duty to society was to find the truth.

Corrupt laborites ensured he was publicly humiliated and silence, their treatment of the Police in Maddie's case is simply a repeat performance. Same sreason - hidden agendas. Dr Kelly spoke of the very 'dark forces' at work prior to his untimely death.

find.

In both cases the truth is the enemy of corrupt politicans - hidden agendas. espectedscientitstspecialists.

Wizard said...

Ironside reports on 3A’s

“There is a heated debate on another forum that Brown congratulated the McCanns on their libel suit against the DX Is this true?"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article3586681.ece

2345 said...

Googling info for Ironside and found:

The Mail 23/08/08 -

"Portuguese Police have as many as 40 more questions they want to put to Kate McCann.

Pamela Fenn 81 is reported to have heard Madeleine crying "daddy, daddy and SOUNDS OF VIOLENCE.

Mrs Fenn has since denied it - since a visit from Metado 3 ????

2345 said...

The Times - 17 October 2007

It was claimed yesterday that traces of bodily fluids from a decomposing corpse had been found in the boot of the scenic. Mr & Mrs McCann remain the official suspects in their daughter's disappearance.

Senior Portugues Police detective have told local journalists that the quantitiy of Madeleine's hair found in the boot of the car surprised them .. they also said there were traces of the missing girl's blood.

Alleged discover of fluids from a decomposing body would be concrete evidence that the McCanns had disposed of a corpse".

If report of Brown's congratulations to McCanns is true, he clearly has failed to speak to British Police involved in the case or checked FSS results on their files alongside PJ's.
No surprises there then !!!

lizzy said...

wizard
Actually it was me who mentioned that I thought I'd heard Gordon Brown commenting on the news that the Mccanns had won their libel case against the Express newsgroup,nobody else seems to recall this happening so I must be wrong.It might have been Clarrie mentioning him by name although I thought he did say something on the news....Lizzy

Wizard said...

I was just looking through my copy of today’s Observer when I came across an article by David Smith their Technology Correspondent called “Addiction to internet ‘is an illness’. “

Are you a net junkie?

If you answer ‘yes’ to five or more of these questions, you may have an internet addiction which we are told is a recognisable condition.
• Do you feel preoccupied with the internet? (Think about your online activity or anticipate your next online session.)
• Do you need increasing amounts of time on the net in order to achieve satisfaction?
• Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back or stop internet use?
• Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop internet use?
• Do you stay online longer than originally intended?
• Have you jeopardised or risked the loss of a significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the internet?
• Have you lied to family members, therapist or others to conceal the extent of your involvement with the internet?
• Do you use it to escape from problems (e.g., feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety, depression)?

Those of you who remember the DX’s HYS forums some poster (mainly pro McCanns if I remember rightly) used to be online from early in the morning to late at night or even the early hours of the next morning. Could this be the addiction described above? I myself have to admit if I do not have access to a computer for more than a few days I suffer withdrawal symptoms.

Anonymous said...

Wizard,
The same applies to many of the posters in this blog.
Especially Viv.

2345 said...

wizard,

Interesting post. I've only shared online views in the McCann case. If press reports were trustworthy and the case was free of political interference, I doubt people would log into Forums on a daily basis for news updates. Whilst the spin and orchestrated defence by media continues, so will the public - online.

DE was the first Forum I'd joined. I didn't know what a keyboard monkey was until Ironside downloaded information on tactics used for 'statistics'. I do not see it as addictive to want to know the truth in any situation;
there's an incredible amount of information available from so many informed people and sources.

Had the matter been left to the police from day one, I doubt any of us would have joined Forums for any other purpose than polite conversation. DE Forum was a revelation, monitored by Big Brother and occupied by BB. Quashing public opinion by all means available was the aim; peoples rights were being threatened and abused. People with self respect take a stand.
Everyone I knew on DE refused to cave in to bullying or remain silent. No one was permanently banned for justifiable reason - this reinforced peoples' resolve and stand for rights - democratic rights and the rights of the police to do their job.

I think the 'case' has become personal, as opposed to addictive, because people have committed themselves to taking a stand for decency. Those banned by DE, and CM's closure of DM Forum have gone elsewhere with increased resolve. Comrades in arms who support each other by mutual belief and outlook.

In true democracy this would not be necessary ... the Police should be free to do their duty. This case has brought many issues to the public's attention. Rothaymere published quotes from great people .... "evil takes hold when good men stay silent" - or words to this effect. This sums it up for me ... commitment on a daily basis.

2345 said...

wizard,

Anonymouse is a prime Big Brother example.

2345 said...

lizzy,

Clarrie's a great name dropper, isn't he? Gordon Brown, Carter Ruck, Judge, FBI & FBI artists, Ophra - not forgetting Richard & Judy !! He never mentions cadavers, Police or forensics.
Complete memory blank where law and order is concerned.

lizzy said...

2345,
I agree with you completely,he has attempted to mislead and control from the outset,he really believes he can influence public opinion by his actions , sad really as he only serves to make the Mccanns look more guilty.Remember him saying re the evidence found in the hire car, there is no evidence and if any is found there is an innocent explanation for it..unbelievable...the worse comment he ever made has ot be though when denying the existance of Gerry owning a blue sports bag which he allegedly reported lost. Clarrie said the blue sports bag never existed, they returned home from holiday with everything except madeleine....couldn't believe it when I heard such an insensitive comment..but that is the kind of man representing them. Lizzy

viv said...

Hiya all

just logged on and trying to get up to speed. Firstly I looked at the article in the mail copied below..then I am going to have a look at the one about Murat getting his stuff back and being cleared!!

In relation to the one below, what seems to be keep coming out now is that OB was missing from the table in betwee 9.30 and 10.15. This I find very odd because Kate supposedly raised the alarm at 10 and everyone then left the table. On Panorama Jane said she was back in her apartment at 10 and the first thing she knew about it was when I think Rachel knocked the door to tell her. This just does not add up does it? She seems to be suggesting that it was her there looking after the child at 10 - this does seem to be untrue in view of witness reports she never left the table and how could she have only been next door and not heard Kate standing outside screaming they have taken her etc. Nanny Pennington says she had never seen a parent in such a state. So where was O'Brien up to 10.15...One can clearly understand why the police just do not believe these two..OB obviously worried and knows his story conflicts with Tanners - he did not want to come on Panorama, did he!


----------


Portuguese police to quiz Tapas Nine in Britain in final bid to solve Madeleine mystery
By GERARD COUZENS - More by this author »

Last updated at 13:28pm on 23rd March 2008

Comments (11)


Madeleine McCann: Missing since May last year
Portuguese police are set to fly to Britain on April 7 to interview members of the so-called Tapas Nine in a last bid to solve the Madeleine McCann mystery.

Investigators are pinning their hopes on fresh interviews with the seven holiday friends who were eating tapas with Kate and Gerry McCann when their four-year-old daughter disappeared.

They are thought to be particularly keen to reinterview David Payne, Jane Tanner and her partner, Russell O'Brien.

Prosecutors in Portugal have rejected police requests to call the McCanns in for a second round of questioning.

But they have agreed to an application to quiz the McCanns' former spokeswoman Justine McGuiness and a psychologist who comforted GP Kate, 39, after Madeleine went missing.

A source close to the case said: "The Policia Judiciaria had prepared various questions it wanted Kate and Gerry to face but they were crossed off the list of priorities on the advice of public prosecutors.

"They felt it was a waste of time because the McCanns would refuse to answer the questions, a right that Portuguese law grants official suspects."

Portuguese police indicated recently they were ready to spend more than two months in Britain.

They hope to wrap up the interrogations within a week but are packing for a much longer stay.

Scroll down for more...


New interview: Jane Tanner and partner Russell O'Brien
Read more...

Murat could soon be cleared as Madeleine suspect after police return possessions



Dr Payne, 41, a cardiovascular researcher from Leicester, was the last person outside the McCann family to see Madeleine at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz on May 3. Gerry asked him to check on his wife and children while he was having a tennis lesson at about 6.30pm.

Dr O'Brien, 36, from Exeter, was away from the group for up to 45 minutes between 9.30pm and 10.15pm tending his own child who was being sick in his apartment.

He told police he had changed her bed linen, but staff at the Ocean Club deny any change of sheets was requested.

Attention has also focused on 36-year-old Miss Tanner's claim that she saw a man carrying a girl from the McCanns' apartment at about

9.15pm - when another witness says he was outside the flat at the same time but did not see her or the mystery man.

The trio have denied reports they intended changing their original police statements. The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell says the friends are keen to help police and want the reinterviews to take place as soon as possible.

The McCanns - who are official suspects along with expat Robert Murat - deny any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.

viv said...

Crikey this is pretty sensational news! The Daily Mail always seemed to be to be Clarence's favoured spin paper, now what happened to change that? Murat COULD be cleared..they are speculating rather than stating it as a fact but that is very anti-McCann...maybe they are reporting the reality of the McCann's increasingly serious situation?

By returning his computer and other possession, they obviously do not intend to use them in any court case against him, so that would seem to be a reasonable assumption, particularly given it is on the authority of the prosecutor who wil be considering the evidence and who is to be charged.

On the other hand they are taking the diary and computer from Kate and Gerry, I think we can clearly see where this is going!



Murat could soon be cleared as Madeleine suspect after police return possessions
Last updated at 13:20pm on 23rd March 2008



Robert Murat was names as a suspect 11 days after Madeleine went missing
Robert Murat hopes to be cleared as a suspect in Madeleine McCann's disappearance after police returned his computer and other seized possessions.

Public prosecutor Jose Magalhaes e Menezes's ordered detectives to return the items to the 34-year-old expat last week.

Murat was made an "arguido" or formal suspect on 14 May last year, 11 days after Madeleine went missing.

But he believes the return of his possessions is an indication he is set to be cleared of any involvement in the case.

Murat lives with his mother Jenny in Praia da Luz, just 100 yards from the Ocean Club holiday flat where the McCanns were staying when Madeleine vanished shortly before her fourth birthday.

Jenny, 74, said today: "Every single item that the police took has been returned to us.

"Police took Robert's computer and my two computers as well. But we have all three back now.

"Our lawyer was informed by police about the decision and I went to pick everything up from the police station last Thursday.

"Of course we hope it means Robert's arguido status will be lifted shortly.

"But we've had no official confirmation that that is the case and we're not getting too excited."

Mrs Murat has always insisted her son was at home with her on the night Madeleine vanished and Murat has repeatedly denies any involvement.


His lawyer Francisco Pagarete said: "The police received an order from the public prosecutor to give everything back to Robert.

"All his items have been returned. We believe it is another step towards his clearance as a suspect. It's a good sign.

"But we will have to wait and see. There is nothing official saying his status as an arguido is being revoked."



They seized his computer, clothes and other items during a fingertip search of the home and sent material including hairs and earth for analysis.

But reports in Portugal said no link to Madeleine was ever found.

Murat's German girlfriend Michaela Walczuch and her Portuguese husband Luis Antonio were were questioned as witnesses.


She said her husband has become a chain-smoking recluse because of his ten-month ordeal.

Dawn said: "I've known Rob for 13 years and he wouldn't hurt a fly. He was a popular, outgoing person before all this. But it has shattered him." "We are living in constant fear.

viv said...

INTERNET JUNKIES

Interesting post Wizard.

I have to say I have been staggered by the number of posts just 6 people are generating on the Pro-McCann site. The last completed thread a massive 452 in just one 24 hour period. That equates to about 75 posts per person. When you look at these posts they are, for the most part, just inane rubbish. So these people are sitting there for hours, hurling abuse, telling each other what nice people they are and how happy they are etc...really does beg the question!

Wizard said...

With regard to Tanner’s alleged comings and goings on the night of 3rd May. Referring back to a S.Times article of 16/12/07 which appears to give the McCanns account of events. They say as Tanner states she left the Tapas Bar to check on her daughter and saw bundle man at 9.15pm she then returned to her apartment and found her daughter was fine and returned to Tapas Bar. I would have thought she would be back at the Tapas Bar at 9.25ish. Why if this is the case did O’Brien go with Matt Oldfield to check on his daughter again at 9.30pm within 5minutes or less of Tanners return? It just doesn’t add does it?

If their daughter was sick as O’Brien suggested he would still have been in the apartment with Tanner returned and they both would have heard Kate screaming. It would not have been necessary for Rachel Oldfield to tell Tanner the news at just after 10.00pm and why didn’t Rachel Oldfield not see O’Brien in the apartment. Imo the only inference that can be drawn from this is that both Tanner and O’Brien’s statements are a pack of lies.

Your friendly internet junkie - Wizard

viv said...

Hiya Wizard my friendly internet junkie!

Gerry returns about 9.25 having stood chatting to Wilkins for about 15 minutes in the midst of a meal. Whilst stood there Jane Tanner comes to do a check at the next door apartment but neither see her. Just as she and Gerry are returning Oldfield and O'Brien get up to do a check. The really weird thing here is Oldfield states he checked the McCanns children, but Gerry had only just came back. Whilst those two are missing Gerry gives himself an alibi, by calling the instructor or whatever she was to join them at 9.30.

As you say, O'Brien goes to check the children again, when Jane has only just that moment returned. I think they are all telling a pack of lies! I seem to recall there was confusion about whether Oldfield checked the children, yes I did but did not actually see Madeleine, and then oh I only stood outside. All these confusing lies have made it more than obvious to the police from the outset they had something serious to hide. I wonder if, at first, the police thought well it may be just that they were leaving the children alone far more than they say they were, but later realised it as far more sinister than that. Payne claims he saw Madeleiene at 7 pm - this - again there is confusion whether Gerry was actually playing tennis or had sustained an achilles injury and was with Kate. No one else saw Madeleine after 1.30 that day. The fact that all of them keep changing their story is typical of people constantly realised they are found out and trying a new lie. They fool no one and if you ask me they all deserve locking up. I would imagine it is Oldfield who has changed his original statement to state he did not check the McCann children at all - that I believe would get him out of trouble, particularly given he did it, apparently, last September..when he realised how serious it was, he will argue, he immediately decided to tell the police the truth. Protecting his lovely lifestyle in his £1M pad, no doubt, wise man. His wife however is one of the ones who sought to frame Murat and also Payne's wife, no doubt they can just say, well there are people who look identical to Murat, including Mr Payne, and we were genuinely and honestly mistaken. The three the police first one to interview are the three that are looking at custody it seems to me!

hope4truth said...

Good Evening ALL

Back after a lovely day out but had to come on and feed my addicttion before doing anyting else tonight...

Thanks for the article Wizard I am going to enjoy being an internet addict I have never been very rock and roll and now I have an addiction LOL

Hope everyone had a nice day xxx

hope4truth said...

Hello Viv

I hope you had a nice day???

Intresting post there are alot of diffrent versions of what happend that night and I am sure if the PJ write a timeline out for each of them it will be very obvious that every time they have been interviewed the story has changed...

I wonder if Murat will be cleared as an arguido or if he knows somthing and they will keep him as an arguido so he cant talk about what he knows??

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