30 Mar 2008

Kate McCann her Story 5 August 2007

Kate McCann: My Story
::: What really happened the night Madeleine vanished::: Why her last words to me mean so much::: How my twins are coping without their big sister
Related Articles
Kate McCann says she may never return to the family home as police examine suspect's garden
Hi All

What do you all think of Kate's story back in August? I have my own thoughts but would be very interested to read others...What was her motivation for speaking out for the first time, alone? Why did she want it distributed to all the Sunday newspapers?

Viv x

The Independent
Sunday, 5 August 2007

Mrs McCann, speaking in an interview that she asked should be distributed to all Sunday newspapers, also tells what really happened when she discovered that her daughter was missing, how her twins are coping without their sister, and why she may never want to return to the family home again. She also takes time to answer those who have criticised her for leaving the children alone.
Meanwhile, as her story is published, Belgian police were awaiting results of DNA tests done on a straw and drinks bottle which were used by a girl spotted in a restaurant in the Flemish town of Tongeren.

On Saturday, it will be 100 days since Madeleine McCann was snatched from the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz. Interviewed for the first time without her husband, Madeleine's mother tells Lori Campbell about the criticism they have faced, the support they have received and how she and her family have coped since that dreadful night
The one thing I have always been definite about is that I wanted to be a mother. Then when we were trying for a baby and it wasn't happening, it was really hard. The longer it went on, the harder it was. I saw my friends having children and I was really delighted for them, but it made me feel sad too.
We tried unsuccessfully for several years to conceive. There came a point when we admitted we needed help. I was so desperate to have a child I'd try anything. I know IVF isn't everyone's choice, but I wanted to try it. By that stage I was happy to start the treatment because it was taking the pressure off us a bit. We had one unsuccessful attempt before Madeleine, and that was very hard. But when I got pregnant with Madeleine it was just fantastic. It didn't seem true. I did a test at home so I could handle the result if it wasn't good. I was looking at it thinking 'I don't believe that'. Then I went to the hospital and they checked it. I was really excited.
Madeleine's birth
Once we were past 12 weeks we were telling everyone. I swam every day until the day she was born to keep us both healthy. It was a really uncomplicated pregnancy. I had no sickness, nothing. It was so easy. I didn't know I was having a girl until she was born. [She smiles] There she was, perfect. She was lovely. She had the most beautiful face. I'd thought I was going to have a boy, just based on instinct. That actually made it even more special that she was a girl.
The first five or six months were really difficult. She had very bad colic and cried about 18 hours a day. She had to be picked up all the time. So I spent many a day dancing round the living room holding Madeleine. I remember trying to butter my toast with one hand and holding her in the other. We would watch the clock and Gerry would come home and there would be three of us. Sometimes she just looked so sad with colic, and the three of us would be cuddled together trying to get her through it. Like a lot of things, you go through that difficult, bad stage and it tightens that bond. We've both got an incredible bond with Madeleine.
The twins are born
When the twins were born she was amazing, I keep saying that, but she was. She was only 20 months old. She just handled it so well. She was still a baby herself ... [Kate's voice breaks and she has to pause to stop herself crying] I'll try not to get emotional at this point. I just remember when they were born. I'm going to get a bit upset now, sorry. When the time came to bring Madeleine in, it was in the evening. She came in and ... just her little face. When she saw the twins for the first time it was lovely. It was so nice, this expression. She sat on the end of my bed.
We had the odd moment of course, such as when I was breast-feeding the twins. There was a tired Madeleine walking about the room wanting attention. But she was remarkable the way she coped with it all. She would look at me and say 'hold it, hold it,' meaning she wanted to hold one of the babies."
Holiday in Portugal
She was so excited about coming to Portugal. She was holding on to another girl's hand walking up the stairs to the plane. She was no trouble on the flight, always chatting, and colouring in or reading.
The kids had a fantastic time. We all did, but it was lovely seeing them having fun. We did use the kids' club and very often did activities there. Madeleine in particular had a ball. They did swimming, went on a little boat, went to the beach, did lots of colouring in and face painting. Madeleine is at the age where she could really enjoy it.
They played tennis, which she loved, she was so happy. They had a little dance prepared for Friday. It was a little presentation they were working on in the days before. I don't know what it was, I never got to see it ...
On the evening she went missing, before she went to bed, she said, 'Mummy I've had the best day ever. I'm having lots and lots of fun.' [Pause]
That night
The night she went missing there was about 20 seconds of disbelief where I thought 'that can't be right'. I was checking for her. Then there was panic and fear. That was the first thing that hit. I was screaming her name. I ran to the group. Everyone was the same. It was just total fear. I never thought for one second that she'd walked out. I knew someone had been in the apartment because of the way it had been left.
But I knew she wouldn't do that anyway. There wasn't a shadow of a doubt in my mind she'd been taken. That's why the fear set in. Then you go through the guilt phase. Straight away, because we didn't know what had happened. We were just so desperately sorry. Every hour now, I still question, 'why did I think that was safe?'
I can't describe how much I love Madeleine. If I'd had to think for one second, 'should we have dinner and leave them?' I wouldn't have done it. It didn't happen like that. I didn't have to think for a second, that's how safe I felt.
Maybe it was because it was family-friendly, because it felt so safe. That week we had left them alone while we had dinner. There is no way on this planet I would take a risk, no matter how small, with my children. I do say to myself 'why did I think it was safe?' But it did feel safe and so right. I love her and I'm a totally responsible parent and that's the only thing that keeps me going. I have no doubt about that.
You don't expect a predator to break in and take your daughter out the bed. It could have happened under other circumstances and there would still be the regret. It wasn't like a decision we made. It was a matter of 'let's get the kids to sleep, then we'll have dinner.' It wasn't a 'shall I, shan't I?' thing. I feel desperately sorry to her that we weren't there.
This has touched so many people. I've had so many letters from mothers, really kind words. People have said 'Kate, we've done this a hundred times over ourselves. Why would you for one minute think something like that would happen?' It's not like we went down town or anything.
How did it happen?
People have said to me you're the unluckiest person in the world, and we are. That night runs over and over in my mind, and I'm sure people will learn from our mistake, if you want to call it that. But it is important not to lose sight of the fact we haven't committed a crime. Somebody has. Somebody's been there, somebody's been watching. They took our daughter away and we can't lose sight of that.
There are still moments where I think 'how did that happen?' You can't imagine in your wildest dreams that anyone would do something like that. It's awful for us but I have absolutely no idea what Madeleine's feeling. [She pauses to hold back tears] How can someone do that to a child?
When we moved apartments we unpacked some of Madeleine's things. We don't have a room for her set out or anything. I've kept her clothes together. She has lots of presents to open that people have sent. Mostly people who don't know her, and pictures other children have drawn.
The twins know she's not there and they do miss her. But on a day-to-day basis they are happy. They're lovely, like a little double act, they're so funny. They put their little rucksacks on, hold hands and walk off around the room. They're fantastic.
The twins' reaction
Their vocabulary has come on so much since we've been here. The older they get the more it stretches, and there are areas we're going to have to broach. But we'll let them take the lead. They talk about Madeleine's things and if they get a biscuit they say 'one for Sean, one for Amelie, one for Madeleine'.
There are photographs of Madeleine all around and they comment on them. They've got a lot of love and protection. We've taken professional advice just to check we're doing the right thing by them. We have contact with a child psychologist when we need it.
When we went back to the UK for a family baptism there was an empty seat on the plane and Sean said 'that's Madeleine's seat'. That caught me. Because I wasn't going home, it didn't feel too bad leaving. It was important for me to go. The hardest thing wasn't being in the UK, it was to be with such a close family and for Madeleine not to be there. I knew how much she'd have loved to be there ... Despite her small size she just has this huge presence. She brings a lot of joy.
Amelie asked me afterwards, 'Where's Madeleine? I miss my big sister.' I don't know where that question came from, it could have been because it was a family day. She's obviously made that connection, she knows Madeleine's her big sister. Amelie will sometimes point at the Cuddle Cat [Madeleine's cuddly toy] and say 'Madeleine. Her Cuddle Cat. Looking after it.' She's probably heard me saying that.
Sean said something the other day about Madeleine. It catches me. Then they do whatever they're doing, like 'look at this Noddy', and they're on to something else. It's not dwelled on.
Gerry's reaction
Gerry's way of coping is to keep busy and focused. He needs to feel like he's doing something. He's a very optimistic, positive person. I'm not always. With a lot of the campaign stuff, he has done the talking. Sometimes I want to speak, but I just can't. It's not natural for me. Gerry's used to having to speak at conferences and it's harder for me. But I'm equally involved. Every decision is mutual.
When Gerry went to Washington, he rang me three or four times a day to ask me what I thought. Although I wasn't there in person I knew hour by hour what was happening. We knew it was a positive visit. It wasn't about Madeleine in particular. We've learnt a lot and become aware of the bigger issue.
Other missing children
There are so many missing children out there, abducted children and sexually exploited children. Once you know all that you can't turn a blind eye to it. Madeleine is our priority, but we have to help. We can't just ignore those other children.
I don't know why the publicity's been so massive. We're normal people. We don't have amazing contacts or anything, we just have strong friends. Everyone brainstormed and became very creative. They did what they could and if that meant asking well-known faces, celebrities, it was done. They are normal people too. They wanted to help.
I still have moments of panic and fear. It's not as intense and unrelenting as the first five days. Now, obviously, we have hope and it's important to hold on to that. I do go back to those dark moments. It would be abnormal never to touch on them. I do feel panic and fear when I'm thinking about her, but it doesn't help. I'm not helping Madeleine by going there. It's important to channel those emotions into something positive.
Returning home
But I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to go back into our family home. I can't bear the thought of it. We'd lived in that house for a year and it was a really happy family home. We have so many happy memories in that house. Madeleine's room is shocking pink. She chose the colour.
Obviously things change as the weeks and months go by. We haven't got the pressure of Sean and Amelie starting school or anything. At the moment we're staying and we feel happier staying. We are closer to the investigation. Some of that might be mad, I don't know. We don't know where Madeleine is, we don't think she's in the UK but there's nothing to say she's any further from there than she is from here. It's a gut feeling. I'm aware there's probably things that would be easier at home, but at the moment this is the right thing for us.
And it's hard to think about work. I'm not looking too far ahead, but I can't drop the campaign, I know that. I can't turn a blind eye to it. We'll do whatever we can, working with other organisations, to try to make a difference. It's so hard not to get involved, it's so intimate to us now that we can't ignore it. It's not like I go round in a bubble, but I honestly did not realise the scale of this problem, children suffering like this.
The public's reaction
The criticism from the public is hurtful. I hate publicity, interviews, anything like that. I just hate it. When things have happened in the past to children I've wondered 'how do you get through that, how can you even live another day?' Then here we were doing press conferences. You just don't know until you're in that situation. Like this morning: how did I get in the shower, have my breakfast?
I just go through the motions. Any parent would do anything they could for their child. We're just doing what we feel is the best thing for Madeleine. Some people say the publicity will be harmful, that she'll be hidden away because of it. But what can you do, just sit and do nothing? It's difficult. It's awkward. But it's not about me, it's not about Gerry, it's about Madeleine.
As a couple, I think we're stronger than ever. We've got an equal partnership. We don't row, we've never rowed. We have different strengths and have reached different stages at different points but we help each other. We haven't talked about staying here for ever, we're just not looking that far ahead. We've had so much support, mothers can empathise with me. Speaking now, on my own, is a way of saying thank you. They've given a bit of themselves to me.
[Next Saturday will mark 100 days since Madeleine's disappearance] I'm still hoping we're not going to get there. Every day I'm hoping we won't get to the next day without her. But we have to keep going for Madeleine.
If I could say one thing to comfort her it's that we love her. She knows we love her very much. She knows we're looking for her, that we're doing absolutely everything and we'll never give up.

733 comments:

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atardi said...

Anonymous,

"ReTardi,
you do post some crap darrrlllliinngg"

You couldn't choose a better name. Sounds like Retardo!

Why are you so upset? You can stand with a post explaining why you hate this blog.

It would be nice to invent a new name.

Hope you will have a nice evening insulting people. That's what you're found of.

Anonymous said...

Hi Viv,

Just done a trawl of the other fora - it seems that Max Clifford is going to represent Robert Murrat when he arguido status is lifted.....that will be very interesting indeed!!!!!

Another thing that's struck me - if Clarrie was such a vital part of the Labour government, why was he farmed out to the McCanns? Did the government quietly suspect the McCanns, convince Clarrie it was a great opportunity, and are now waiting for him to fall with his clients? A subtle way of making him redundant from his gov job? He can't have been that good if they felt they could live without him.

Anonymous said...

They insult to try to detract attention from their paymasters...but it is too late. Madeleine will not be forgotten.

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
I don't know if I share it myself but what I found odd was immediately after it was posted the other Anon posted such a long post it took away any attention from that one, just wondered if there was a motive, probably me just being over suspicious...lol
Lizzy

hope4truth said...

Viv

I see your site is as popular as ever it must be very dull wherever they are comming from x

Anonymous said...

They show that you are part of their team. Three of you are and are fooling the others into thinking you are lonely old ladies defending a sad, helpless couple. But the truth will soon be known.

Unknown said...

Hiya Penelope

I am sure Max Clifford will be a great asset to the much maligned Mr Murat and all those nasty McCann supporters who repeatedly libelled him calling him a paedophile and saying he had paedophilia on his computer, a wicked lie.

Anonymous said...

Lizzy, there is a motive. They are trying to hide the truth of the decadence that many well-known and respected members of society are a part.

hope4truth said...

Anon

I think the biggest insult to Maddie was being neglected by her parents.

Anonymous said...

Viv,

I remember being absolutely disgusted on the DE forum by a certain flops and the comments made about Robert Murat, I do hope he has copies of those posts. Their underhand tactics, I hope they bite them on the bum big time. IMO. IMO. IMO.IMO.IMO.IMO.

Unknown said...

Hi Zodiac

I have copies of the sick and disgusting posts Rosiepops and Christabel (who appears to be obsessed with paedophilia) wrote about Mr Murat and would personally do anything I could to help him.

The way this bunch have treated him is absolutely disgusting and the public will not forget or the very sad story of his girlfriend in The Daily Mail.

Viv x

Anonymous said...

Zodiac, the poster Christabel is royally f***** she even posted his address on the DE. All to defend THE CHOSEN NEGLECTORS

hope4truth said...

Nick are you really tinkerbell???

I cant really believe she would be so stupid to change ids she allways was one of the more balanced people on the dx???

Anonymous said...

Nick, your dad should be ashamed of raising trash like you. Or did he neglect you too to go off to the pub to meet his pals?

Anonymous said...

Nick is Simone (sassy).

hope4truth said...

Normal Anon

Oh right someone said she was Tinkerbell why do they need to come here???

Thanks for that how do you know ???

Anonymous said...

Hi Viv,

I see from the other fora that apparantly Robert Murat will be represented by Max Clifford when the time comes...I'm looking forward to the Murat/McCann Clifford/Clarrie clash! We won't have seen such entertainment since the "War of the Waleses" !!!

Unknown said...

Perverted Christabel thinks pictures of Madeleine are an insult to her!

lizzy said...

Hope,
Do you think so I think none of them are balanced, they make my teenagers seem mature. I suppose some are more balanced than others,a couple were barking ...but hey thats just my opinion. Lizzy

Anonymous said...

Night all off for a glass of wine with my hubby. Read you all tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

I hope Clifford kicks Clarence in the pants so hard it sends him back to his 3 AM news bulletins...in which he fell asleep.

Ana said...

Atardi,

Totally agree with you , they live in a cell since may .

Sometimes life can be bad to some and some can make it even worse

Anonymous said...

Dear Viv

That Christabel is a sick person. If pictures of Madeleine are sick, then why does she post on a blog with many pictures of Madeleine?

Christabel is also part of the lobby.

Unknown said...

Hi Penelope

I think the press will be the targets even more than the McCanns because they were greedy and prepared to print all Clarence's disgusting press releases but he may be a good target to.


Hopefully they will not bother sueing Kate and Gerry because they will be nicely tucked up and their assets go to the twins. I know for a fact Mr Murat would not wish to do anything at all to harm them. He is a lovely man.

Read your other point about Clarence, that also crossed my mind, e.g. is he a double agent for the government! I doubt it though, sounds like entrapment..

Anonymous said...

Another thought on Max Clifford - he is such a shrewed media mover, he's bound to have made a clinical (and cynical) assessment of the story, what's likely to be the truth, and the public perception.

Its highly unlikely that someone as cunning as Max would not back the winner in this game.

Viva la veritas!

PS Sorry for repeating my post but I couldn't see the first one published so I posted it again.

hope4truth said...

Viv

CM is a spin dr whatever the outcome he can write a best seller and spin it any way he wants to after all he is just a paid person not linked to them in any other way...

He is set to make alot of money...

In fact the pay that people have had to speak for them is astounding I bet there would be many volunteers who have retired and have time to donate for nothing to help devestated parents???

Rori Hegarty said...

O for gods sake anon has someone taken your playstation or ds lite away, hit the escape button on your mammys computer now please.

atardi said...

Ana,

Living in a cell since may but still trying to manipulate the world.

Unknown said...

Hello Isis

How are you darling?

I wonder what the devastated wonder couple are doing tonight.

Not behaving like a ocuple of child neglectors I hope x

Unknown said...

Hey Hope

Can you go and have a little chat with Supertroll for a bit:-)

Rori Hegarty said...

Hope dont know what you mean by flown, but if it means that silly anon has flown from here il be happy, ben on the 3as today and had enough of troll nonsense.

Ana said...

Atardi,

Trying , well put , i don’t think they can...

Unknown said...

Hiya Isis

Someone is asking too many personal questions about other posters if you get my drift.


Viv x

Rori Hegarty said...

HI viv was responding to hopes post but its gone !! Havnt a clue what devestated couple are up to tonight im too busy being happy for a liverpool win ... not watching wednesdays match though !

hope4truth said...

Viv

I would but I dont think they are at home xxx

Unknown said...

Hiya Isis


Maybe she deleted it?

Dont know nothing about football, sorry, but hope your team wins anyway!

Viv x

Cláudia said...

Atardi, I finally understood something you wrote in a language other than English: Alles Prima! :-)

Unknown said...

Hiya Hope

Why do you think no one is at home?

hope4truth said...

Isis

Oh god have I mixed people up again I take it your daughter is not stuck at heathrow in terminal 5???

I am terrible with names and names with no faces not good at all xxx

Unknown said...

Ola querida Claudia

I am thinking you understand a lot of things darling, you know me well:-)

lizzy said...

Hi Isis,
Did you watch the game? Wasn't a good game but think Liverpool did deserve to win we didn't play well at all. Yak gave away that goal though, never mind one of those things. Lizzy

Unknown said...

Ola querida Claudia

I am thinking you understand a lot of things darling, you know me well:-)

hope4truth said...

Viv

Last post over an hour ago xxx

My post has vanished was it something I said LOL x

Rori Hegarty said...

Hope , last time (3mins ago) i checked she was in bed in a sulk, ah well nothing new there !!

atardi said...

Ana,

Trying but not succeeding. Otherwise people wouldn't be here.

They still have one week .;)

hope4truth said...

Isis

Oh god I am so useless with names can someone please tell me who I was talking about please...

Sulk is she a teenager??? x

Rori Hegarty said...

Hi Lizzy, yes i watched most of it, you never know with the merseyside derbies though they can go either way... i will not be watching on wed night though!!

Unknown said...

Not amused hope..

Rori Hegarty said...

Hope , think you may have been referring to someones daughter who was about to board a flight. Mine is a teenager,15, and all that goes with it. Problem for her is that she thinks that i was born aged 42 !!

Cláudia said...

Ola querida Claudia

I am thinking you understand a lot of things darling, you know me well:-)
----------------------------------

So do you, minha querida amiga. So do you! :-)

hope4truth said...

Isis

Mine allways is in a worse mood on Sunday nights bet she wont be next week when there is no school the next day...x

hope4truth said...

Viv

About what?

docmac said...

Hi Lizzy

Been watching TV for a while. Yes I did watch the game. Good result for the Reds, but what a gaffe by the Yak! Like Isis I am nervous about the next game, and the following two as well!

atardi said...

Cláudia,

You were reading "Alles prima" phonetic? "All is prime?" LOL.

atardi said...

Hope,

I thinkyou meant Leigh3's daughter?

Unknown said...

Like I said Hope, perhaps you could go and have another reasonable little chat with Supertroll..keeps her quiet x

hope4truth said...

Atardi

Thank you I did how on earth did I get that confused there are no numbers on Isis...

Well if Leigh is looking in I hope your daughter is flying...

Thanks again Atardi xxx

Unknown said...

Hiya Doc

Hope you had a good night's telly!

That social worker video you sent was really good, no doubt in his mind about the criminal neglect by the McCanns!

hope4truth said...

Viv

If she is Anon then maybe I wind her up are you still deleting posts or has Anon gone? x

Unknown said...

Claudia/Doc

The lady doth protest too much:-)

Unknown said...

Hope,

you? wind her up?

Cláudia said...

No, Atardi, but I speak German and Alles prima is understandable for German speakers! :-)

Cláudia said...

Viv, ;-)

hope4truth said...

Viv

If I had not of posted today and she is anon maybe she would not have posted here...

I am fed up with anons and the rubbish they post and am depressed a little girl is missing and anons are more worried about the parents reputation than a few questions being answered.

A little girl is worth the truth and it looks lost at the moment...

atardi said...

Viv,

Have you read this article already on the Daily Mail?

The very sinister cover-up behind Scarlett's murder in Goa
By NATALIE CLARKE - More by this author » Last updated at 23:00pm on 30th March 2008


The link is:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=550611&in_page_id=1811

Cláudia said...

Good night, all. Got an early start tomorrow.
Boa noite!

hope4truth said...

Atardi

That is really fightening I wonder how many girls have been abused liek this?

My friend went traveling years ago and hired a jeep with two friends two other girls on a moped crashed into them on the side (it was not my friends fault) and the police took £500 from them as compensation although the girls were not hurt and their bike was fine but they were so scared that they would have drugs planted on them they paid up and were alowed to leave...

I hope my girls dont want to go traveling when they get older...

x

atardi said...

Read you all tomorrow.
Goedenavond.

hope4truth said...

Night Claudia x

Unknown said...

Atardi, thanks darling, I will go and have a read.

Claudia

Boa Noite minha queridaxxxxxxx

hope4truth said...

Nighy Atardi x

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
Something odd is happening here, I have a list in order of everybody who has posted on here tonight in my emails....why has this happened? Lizzy

Unknown said...

Atardi

Goodnight darling, take care x

Viv x

Unknown said...

Hiya Lizzie

When you post a comment you can elect to have follow up comments emailed to you, maybe you did that and didnt realise?

Luv Viv x

lizzy said...

HI Viv,
Very strange since I posted my 22.26pm post every single post has come to my email ...starting at the time I sent my 22.26pm post. Lizzy

lizzy said...

Hi Viv,
Oh right well its every single comment since that post, I may have done that and not realised, you know how hopeless I am on computers, very possible...lol, thanks for telling me wondered what was happening as I had so many. Lizzy

Ana said...

Hiya Cláudia and good night.
I am off too, good night all: )

hope4truth said...

Lizzy

If you tick the box it makes you look popular in the e mail stakes x

lizzy said...

Hi Docmac,
Glad you enjoyed it, are your next 3 matches against Arsenal,quite a few in a week, will be hard for you as Arsenal are a good team, Van Persie is excellent. But Liverpool have a god record in Europe so I think will beat them. Lizzy

hope4truth said...

Goodnight All

I hate this hour diffrence but I guess work will be over more quickly tomorrow xxx

lizzy said...

Hope,
What's worse is I don't remeber ticking anything, lol
only goes to show how bad I am on computers. I will have to delete some as I get about one hundred a day from a group I chat with re dogs. My kids laugh at me for being on a web chat for dogs, but everyone on it is niice and from all over the country and as far afield as America and Canada.....Lizzy

docmac said...

Lizzy, winning 2 of the 3 will be good enough for me ;-). The side has the ability, no doubt. Van Persie is very good of course, but they will be just as worried, if not more so, by Adebayor.

hope4truth said...

Angie

Dont worry about me I post where I please and Viv has no problem with it as she is a sane lady...

Now run along for your pat on the head from the others for posting here they can all say tee hee hee we really know how to upset people who say things we dont like...

Freedom of speach against child neglect not to be tolerated on other blogs I know but here it is fine...

lizzy said...

Docmac,
Well hope they don't go the whole hog and win the Champions League again, I have a bet with a man who I work with , I bet him a tenner Liverpool will not win it this year. But I don't think they will to be honest. have a feeling , although now I have put money on it, you may do...I may have brought you luck as I usually lose bets....Lizzy

hope4truth said...

Lizzy

One of my posts deleted its self earlier maybe google is haveing a wobble...

A dog forum blimey they are for everything now days I think LGC is toying with a most haunted blog LOL

Where shall I go next I wonder (typing errors r us) LOL x

hope4truth said...

Angie

I dont think so dear some things you will never understand x

Unknown said...

Angie

Supertroll stalks me, Alsabella, Doc etc and writes abusive filth about us and other posters on this blog, and is permanently barred from this site. It is not freedom of speech to behave in this way!

hope4truth said...

Viv

Now do you think Angie cares about my feelings or just thought she could have a go at you I???

I know what I would bet on...

xxx

hope4truth said...

Angie

Vulnerable LOL I dont think so I am fine thanks...

I am sat at home in my lounge with my husband and my biggest problem is he cant find the next disc to put in the DVD player from the box set we are watching...

hope4truth said...

Angie

It is Viv's blog she can delete who she likes when she likes.

If you start your own blog you can do the same...

Thanks if your concern is genuine but I am fine x

docmac said...

Lizzy

I'll give you the tenner! I have a family of 6 and we need another egg cup :-)

Off to bed now, sleep tight Lizzy.

hope4truth said...

Angie

I am not changing my personality to suit anyone you can decide what you think I am but it makes no odds...

And I dont aim to please anyone if I did I would not be here...

Unknown said...

Nite Doc

Dorme bem x

hope4truth said...

Angie

Well thank you for that but I am fine goodnight,

Anonymous said...

Hi angie,Hope,

Just been monitoring the posts before I go to bed.

Hope, I agree with Angie that you are a decent person. I don't have time for many people in this blog.

You shouldn't be part of this.
Hope you get this before if gets deleted.

Goodnight.

ST

hope4truth said...

Troll

Until Madeleine is found I will be a part of this and will keep posting about neglect and how wrong it is.

I find it strange that people will not answer questions about a missing child or try to slate a country that spent so much time and money looking for her.

Maybe when the PJ get here answers will be given but they should have been given truthfuly months ago and no spin should have been needed...

3 year old children deserve care and if they go missing they deserve answers...

Anonymous said...

supertroll
go back to your hole
go back to your pathetic lot discussing knickers and edf


tubby nuts

hope4truth said...

Troll

And the other site is about defending suspects and hating all things Portuguise.

I dont understand the spin so will stay here I have heard the evidence on the news last year I will wait for an outcome.

Shame none of it will help the one person who really matters in all this...

Unknown said...

Hey Tubby Nuts

ROFLMAO:-)

I like a good laugh sometimes, CHEERS!

Viv x

hope4truth said...

Good night Viv

x

Unknown said...

Good Night Hope x

hope4truth said...

Viv

Oh before I go I know what LMAO means but what does the ROF stand for ? x

Anonymous said...

Hi Viv :)

sorry for being anonymous

a good night to you x

Anonymous said...

sorry Viv
that 01:24:00 was tubby nuts again

Unknown said...

Hey Tubby Nuts

I recognised there are occasions when even your blogger name needs to be kept confidential:-)

Personal anonymity on the weird wide web with all these nutters about, absolutely essential. I dont want Gerry McCann knocking the door, now do.

Hope: Rolling on the floor x

Unknown said...

Tubby Nuts could you just help me with one last question..

what is edf? I know what knickers means..

Anonymous said...

Viv! :)

that was a good one!

EDF stands for Electricite de France, the energy supplier: one of the knickers-owners was mentioning it where supertroll comes from

tubby nuts x

Unknown said...

Gee Thanks Tubby Nuts and one finger salute to you:

On the subject of all things amusing here is a little quote from Rosiepops, there were many that were so funny, but this one just caught the militant mood:

Stand to attention you naughty PJs!


"For a start I want a full statement from the PJ outlining exactly what they have done, when they did it, when they stopped looking for Madeleine. what they have done with all the information and leads that have come into them. How these leaks occurred and what was done to stop them. the Portuguese journo that ended up with highly sensitive information should be interrogated, there is so much."

Anonymous said...

That Rosiepops has delusions of grandeur. She is a nobody.

Anonymous said...

I saw this posted in the pro's blog today and I am absolutely gob-smacked! What a terrible attitude the author of this article expresses. I am prepared to speak to the pro's logically and rationally about the McCann case and I believe they are entitled to their opinions. However, when I read things like this about the broader issue of child care, and I know it is a mind-set they are promoting, I am left gasping! Does the author of this claptrap not realise that you can still allow children their "freedom" while at the same time, keeping them perfectly safe? And does she not realise that if you let your children wander off and go missing, their "freedoms" may be gone forever, as they may just end up abducted and sold into child slavery, or end up gagged and bound to a pedophile's bed (if, of course, they aren't simply raped and murdered!). I think what the author really needs to admit is that deep down, she doesn't really love or care for her children, otherwise, there is NO WAY ON EARTH she could willingly and openly express such barbaric, not to mention criminally negligent, views! The author is lazy, revolting, and self-obssessed, and puts her own leisure time and pleasure seeking before her children's very lives! It's one thing to set up a blog that gives an alternate position on the McCann case. It's another to set up a blog as an apology page for slack parenting!

See for yourself ...

==================================================================================



'I guess my point is, that things aren't really any more dangerous these days, and perhaps we shouldn't let ourselves get carried away by 'smothering' our kids and not allowing them any freedom or independence, on the off-chance (and it is an extremely tiny chance) that some evil lowlife is waiting for the opportunity to snatch them away.

'That isn't to say I'm lax with my boys' safety. I do keep an eye on them but they do leave my sight occasionally. Last summer we managed to lose them both, separately, when they wandered of in a fun park. Thankfully we found them safe and well, and my heart was in my mouth until we did, worrying about what had happened.

We have left them in hotel rooms while we had supper in the restaurant (with the monitor switched on of course). If there are baby sitters or baby listening services we would use them, but they are not always available.

'Of course, God forbid, if anything did happen to them I would never forgive myself for not watching them enough, but I am not going to go through life constantly worrying that something will happen.

'Madeleine is very much in my thoughts and I am hoping and praying that she is found safe and well.'

Zofia, mum of four

http://www.ivillage.co.uk/parenting/pracad/parcare/articles/0,,186674_710962,00.html
Posted by Sass at 19:43

Anonymous said...

"We have left them in hotel rooms while we had supper in the restaurant (with the monitor switched on of course). If there are baby sitters or baby listening services we would use them, but they are not always available."


Oh okay. But you still leave your kids in the hotel room anyway, do you? It's bad enough WITH a baby monitor (a mere machine!), but WITHOUT one is unthinkable (or should be!). In fact, I think it is against the law!

This mother says her boys both "wandered off seperately" at a fun-park. Considering they are still at the baby monitor stage (or perhaps, only slightly older) how small must they be?? Why weren't they holding their parents hands at all times? Why were they put in a situation where they COULD wander off? I know husbands and wives that keep a better eye on each other than this, let alone so-called parents!!

What an appalling state of affairs!

Anonymous said...

Not referencing this particular case, but in terms of general principle, it's not obvious to me why in the instance of a child seeming to disappear it would be necessary for the parents of that child to have equal knowledge and equal understanding of what had occurred. Nor would it seem obvious that the actions of one parent would be detailed fully and truthfully to the other. There would seem to be instances where events could be discovered by one parent, made to look otherwise in tandem with a confederate, the other parent then seeing what was supposed to be seen and responding very authentically to the same. Perhaps in the case, say, of medical accident, if there were a career price involved, or a genuine design to shield a partner from the knowledge of an accidental death caused by him or herself, it would make sense to present as abduction and to let the parent unaware of the misrepresentation believe that he or she was first to a scene of 'abduction'. It would in general terms seem mechanically straight forward were a confederate to be in a neighbouring apartment to transfer evidence to that apartment within minutes of the accident being discovered. If that confederate were involved previously in the accident, perhaps as the source of medication, then maybe his or her professional ruin would motivate? It would be intelligent to introduce or emphasise a sick child in order to explain absences - although how this child can alternate between being obviously sick, happily asleep, and vomiting, then well again, etc, at the exact times the emerging narrative demands a confederate is - well - improbably fortuitous. This unlikely ability to be well, sick, asleep, vomit, awake, asleep, walks alongside the laws of physics applying when one person walks pass two more on a narrow street immediately before claiming to sight a fourth. Almost as if that person wasn't there to be seen or see, perhaps with some pressing reason to misremember. But then to have Rare Stranger Abduction on top, with all the intricacies and improbabilities required for such a stranger to be able not only to identify, target, access and take, but to escape without leaving a trace...it would be no wonder if this turned out to be a house of cards, doomed to collapse on the smallest detail. There will be great nervousness to exploit the week after this one - if there have been mistaken recollections.

hope4truth said...

Bianca

That is unreal...

Well lets stuff comon sense and even if you were a good mum before this terrible tradgedy if you are on the side of the McCanns drag out terrible parents from everywerhe and show all us idiots who have given our time for our children and have tried to keep them as safe as possible that we have been doing it wrong for years.

How sick and totally iresponsible.

Kate and Gerry you dream of cracking the USA if your spin is to be believed well just thank your lucky stars you were not there when this happend because you would no doubt be in a cell by now for being so bloody selfish and neglecting your children.

God help these people who try and justify what they did if we believe them because they were more intrested in their own lives than the lives of their chidren Madeleine is missing. Peadophiles are real but now lets try and pretend things have not changed over the years just so parents can do as they please and not offer basic care for the children.

How easy would it be to put your children to bed and do as you please each night? I know when my children were small we could have gone shopping or out for a meal or just a nice walk after a busy day.

These people make me sick they make excuses about neglect as if they are actually doing their children a favor by being so lazy.

If you cant be bothered to look after a child dont have one it is that simple a child is for life not just a few months when a new baby is so exciting.

See you later x

docmac said...

Evening Bianca

That mum must be the village i in the i village!

Have a look at this if you missed it:

http://www.yoursocialworker.com/videos/neglect.wmv

Anonymous said...

My thoughts this morning is that the PJ have enough evidence to prove that Madeleine is dead but cannot prove who was involved. I think they may need a confession to establish who did what or they may have to charge death by abandonment. They probably suspect who did it and covered it up but the evidence is not giving enough proof or detail. Just my opinion. Thus the interviews are not expected to last too long but we may find another arguido or two next week and possible a charge soon after that. Anyone else feel the same?
Oh hello to the doggy person. I've just got a cocker after waiting all my life for one, lovely aren't they.

Anonymous said...

Hope4You - couldn't agree more with everything you have said Hope! And yes, the McCann case certainly seems to be encouraging the slack parents out of the woodwork, almost like they are a cult that are trying to win points for their bizarre, socially unacceptable ways! Revolting!

DocMac - "The village i in i village" .. Exactly! I bet this crazy "mum" would also leave her sons bedroom windows open at night, after all, nobody can prove there are more pedophiles than there used to be, therefore, if a pedophile DID abduct one of her sons, he'd probably go easy on them and eventually return them safe and well to mummy and daddy.

Ha?????

Will check out the link. Thanks.

:-)

Niki said...

Hi everyone! What a lot of good posts the last days!

Was not around, so I'm still at the head-article...

Quote:
We had the odd moment of course, such as when I was breast-feeding the twins. There was a tired Madeleine walking about the room wanting attention. But she was remarkable the way she coped with it all. She would look at me and say 'hold it, hold it,' meaning she wanted to hold one of the babies."

This I found at EMM News:
[said:]: The worst thing is that she started to demand lots of attention, especially when I was breastfeeding them. She would run up and down screaming in the background, shouting for my attention.

TheScotsman 18-SEP-07

Two sides of the same story?!?
Tried to get in to the original article from The Scotsman, but it seem to have been pulled...

Niki

Anonymous said...

Hi again, Docmac, am just waiting for the clip to load.

You know, about the "checking" thing, if Kate McCann reckons that her and her husband at the time thought leaving the children behind in the hotel room was "perfectly safe" and would never have left them if they'd even "considered" it wasn't safe, blah blah blah, then why the need for the (supposed) constant checks?? If they were THAT safe (as the McCanns claimed they believed at the time) why up and down like yoyo's to look in on them? Either A) They KNEW it wasn't bloody safe, and so felt obliged to keep checking, or B) the stories about the checking are just completely made up (as I've always thought - hence, why the Tapas Group's testimonies about "leaving the table" all conflict!).

I think it's highly possible that they NEVER checked ANY of their children, knew that this was in itself, a criminal act, (especially since Madeleine ended up abducted), so quickly concocted half-assed stories about "checking the kids" in order to try and cover their tracks!

Anonymous said...

Bianca

And they never considered WHY Mark Warner never offered this service....because they did not feel it was safe with the appts being out of the complex. They could have waited until each child was asleep then carried them all to one appt and paid for just one babysitter.

docmac said...

Bianca

I think you are correct in your long-held belief that no checking ever took place. Not on that night or any other in fact. Child neglecters, the lot of them, including the granny. I live in hope that it returns to bite them in the ass.

This was just a brief peep. Hope you saw the clip and that it made an impression on you. I would love for him to have a chat with the 9.

Wizard said...

Anon 7.29am post – Precisely in a word 'staging'.

Niki said...

Hi Madge!

Reading trough some other old articles from The Scotsman, and also think the police has enough evidence:


Two British sniffer dogs, one capable of detecting blood and human remains, were brought to Portugal early last month.

The "cadaver dog" picked up a "scent of death" on everything from Mrs McCann's clothes to missing Madeleine's favourite soft toy, Cuddle Cat, according to reports.

During police interviews, the McCanns were shown a video of the animal "going crazy" when it approached their Renault Scenic hire car, newspapers have claimed.

Leaked reports from the investigation have suggested that Madeleine's parents could have accidentally killed her and then disposed of her body using the hire car.

Although they do not know the full details of Portuguese prosecutors' case against them, the McCanns are concerned it may rest on the dog's reaction.

Full article:http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk/Madeleines-parents-pray-while-Branson.3327632.jp

Niki

Anonymous said...

Hi Docmac - yes, it certainly made an impression on me! Would love it to be mandatory viewing for the pro's - those people need some serious educating!

"The McCanns are culpable for their daughter's disappearance"

Something we over here ALWAYS knew, but it's great to have it sanctioned by an authority in the field. Like the social worker says, a child under 4 simply does not have the cognitive ability to understand or avert potential dangers. Only a complete MORON would think that they did, but as we have seen, complete morons are not that rare! I would be hesistant to leave a 15-year-old on their own in a foreign hotel room, let alone three children under 4 (i.e., babies!).

Thanks for the link!

Wizard said...

T9’s checks on their children.

In the McCanns case being named and shamed by Mrs Fenn for leaving their children unattended for 2 hours or more on a previous night is a point to remember. Warner staff were forced to fetch them from Chaplin’s to attend to their children’s needs this really highlights how the checking normally went down for the T9 imo.

When the T9 got together, got chatting, downed copious drinks all thoughts of their children probably disappeared and it would seem they physically had to be reminded as on the night of 1st May.

Anonymous said...

Docmac again - yes, I truly believe the "checking" stories are bunkum! Hopefully, when the PJ come in April, we will find out for sure.

Madge - agree. Even the complex itself knew that leaving kids behind in these appts was unsafe. But what would it have put them out to simply hire a baby sitter for the night??

Anonymous said...

Wizard - Yes. I'm sure that once Maddy went missing, the McCanns (and the rest of the Tapas group) were desperately hoping it wouldn't come out that they'd already been called back to the hotel room once before after leaving the children (the Chaplin's incident).

However, on anticipating that it MIGHT come out, they made extra sure (imo) that they had stories to cover themselves. The second Maddy went missing, it all would have flashed through their minds .. "what do we say??", "What if they find out?", etc, etc, hence, the rush-job stories that don't quite make sense about going back to the rooms and regularly "checking" the kids.

Anonymous said...

If Madeleine was found. I do not believe that given the circumstances that she would be returned to her parents.

What does anyone else think?

Also this is a Portuguese live ongoing investigation. If she was found would she be returned to PT and placed under their equivalence of an Emergency Police Protection Care Order. Does anyone know?

Rori Hegarty said...

The 2 biggest questions jane tanner will have to weve her way out of are.... If you were in your appartment how did you not hear kate mc canns screamsand if kate left the table knowing you were in your appartment at tennish why did she not bang your door down looking for help.

Niki said...

If the Tapas9 are not charged of neglect, what can you say about this?:

Thomas Cook staff face trial over gas deathsHoliday firm accused over poisoning of family Corfu hotel management indicted for negligence


Two Thomas Cook employees will face trial over the death of two children from carbon monoxide poisoning at a holiday apartment in Corfu. The pair are charged alongside the hotel's management and maintenance contractors in connection with the deaths of six-year-old Robert Shepherd and his sister, Christianne, seven, in October 2006
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/17/greece.thomascookgroup?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

This was an horrible accident, and I feel so sorry for the parents, but also for all the others involved!
The two reps from Thomas Cook, how could they possibly know about the danger with the heaters!
If convicted of manslaughter those responsible could be jailed for five years.

Sorry for beeing off topic, but wanted to point out the differences of justice...

If something like this had happend with the T9 children while the parents where out for dinner, who would have been blamed?!?

Niki

Anonymous said...

Niki - Exactly. Let's just say Maddy hadn't disappeared but gotten up while on her own, gone for a walk, and drowned in the pool for the whole complex to see - would the question of the McCanns "neglect" suddenly be more straight-forward? Why is drowning in a pool a more obvious indicator of neglect than disappearing and not being seen for almost a whole year?

Whether the apartment door was actually locked or unlocked ultimately makes no difference to the "neglect" question, as a child as young as Maddy was (is?)can come to enormous harm either indoors or outdoors, if left unsupervised.

Anonymous said...

Niki
Actually reps are aware of the dangers of heaters. I was trained as a holiday rep and we were told about and shown videos of potential dangers. In terms of keeping our holiday makers safe and also of the legal implications i.e the companies blame in such circumstamces. One of the first things we had to do when taking charge of a new hotel was to physically walk around and check for heaters on particular, amongst other things. Obvously their managers should ensure this training is given and possibly other tour operators are not as diligent as Thomson who i worked for. I agree though there should be a checklist that their team leaders check to ensure these checks are being done.

Gina said...

Good Morning all

Niki I agree with you to a point over the heater incident IMO it was not the fault of the holiday reps, it was the fault of the owner of the property for not ensuring it was safe. With regards to your question, if this had happened to the tapas 9 who would be to blame, answer ultimately the owners of the property for the death, the parents for not being around to maybe being able to prevented it.

Wizard said...

Hi Bianca – 9.50 Post. Yes you are probably right. There is also a need to keep in mind that because of Madeleine’s and the twins age they did not have the cognitive capacity to understand danger - anything could have happened and according to the McCanns it did.

Gina said...

Wizard/Bianca, I think this is the point we have all been making for months. Ok so your first thought if you decide to leave a young child is will she be abducted, but what about all the other scenarios that are possible. I doubt any charges will be brought for Neglect at this late stage, but if they are they should be levied at the whole group as they all did the same thing. Neglect on block, makes british parents appear to be a right shower IMO

Gina said...

I meant to say your first thought is not will my child be abducted

Niki said...

Madge

I was working for five years as a holiday and head-rep (Spain, Malta, Greece). I was never told to check the heaters either by the local agents, the hotels or the office back home...And I would actually not even think about it, maybe because we have electric heating in Norway... This was quite some years ago, now everyone knows better... The same kind of accidents happens unfortunantly in Greece every year, in private houses...


Gina, agree, the hotel-owner and the maintenance should be carged of neglect and manslaughter. to state an excample, and prevent that kind of accidents to happen again!
Have to run, see you later
Niki

Wizard said...

Morning Gina,

I would have thought the pj haven’t charged any of the T9 with neglect because in the McCanns case they do not think being left alone caused Madeleine’s disappearance. They will imo be seeking to level more serious charges in M’s parents case and perhaps one or two of the others.

If they feel they could not successfully prosecute for manslaughter perhaps causing death through negligence might be considered.

Gina said...

Hi Wizard I agree with what you are saying but actually there are two separate issues here. Leaving child is against the law in Portugal so they are all guilty of that anyway. What actually happened to Madeleine as a result of being left alone is another IMO

Unknown said...

Hi all

On the neglect charges, I think I read these have to be brought within 6 months or something like that in Portugal. In the UK it is the same, if there is nothing much to investigate charges will be brought immediately, e.g. Shannon's abductor. This was always an enquiry into more serious offending IMO and those were not the charges they were thinking about. Also, due to needing very strong evidence to support such serious charges, beyond reasonable doubt and the cover up/clean up that took place/no body, one that was going to take a long time, a lot of work and cost a lot of money.

Viv x

Anonymous said...

Niki

Looks like Norway had a better safety record than here. My husband works with Norwegians and they are very responsible people he finds. it was quite a long time ago i repped (11ish years ago). We were told that although unccommon some hotels in and around Spain/Greece had unsafe heaters and other tour operators had been charged as a result of accidents. I worked in Spain which is probably different. I agree though it seems very unfair that reps can be held accountable. I seem to remember being told the compnay would be liable not us personally.

I have to say that i think someone maybe hit the nail on the head. If Madeleine had had an accident whilst alone then they could all be charged with neglect and not many people would sympathise with them. Would there be any pros? I think not. Faced with that scenario would they think an abductor would be a good way of having the blame taken away from them. If i was in Tanners position and thought God we may well have our children taken away for neglect, would i lie a little. Yes, i probably would do anything to prevent that. We made a mistake but no point in making it worse and the other children loosing out. My opinion and i can't say i wouldn't lie a little myself in the same situation. Is this the pact? A few lies that got totally out of control. It would appear Gerry got totally and incredibly carried away if this is the case. I suppose we will know soon enough.

Anonymous said...

Talk about the cadavre smell. If madeleine had an accident and was moved early on in the evening we agree that she must have been moved prior to 8pm for the smell to remain. Would that be the case though if it was not cleaned up immediately. Could the smell be there if the blood/fluids etc were there for 2 hours without the body. Sorry hard to explain. Body not around for 2 hours but mess was.

Anonymous said...

Hi Wizard,

"If they feel they could not successfully prosecute for manslaughter perhaps causing death through negligence might be considered." - Wizard

Are you suggesting this could be done (a charge of negligence leading to death) on the basis of DNA findings? Obviously, there is no body to speak of.

Thanks.

Unknown said...

Hi again

I think the neglect and heavy drinking will form part of the evidence against them that goes to proving this case. What sort of parents are they?

This is often the way in complex criminal and civil cases, you do not go for every aspect of wrongdoing as a separate charge, you use aspects of that wrongdoing to help prove the more serious charges. This is what happens in employment tibunals where you have a huge catalogue of bad behaviour by an employer, not every piece of behaviour will result in say a finding of race discrimination, but every piece of evidence will go towards proving that case.

In trying to defend themselves the McCanns start from a very weak position. They admit, that on at least four nights they behaved in a criminally abusive manner towards their children whilst they went out and drank vast quantities of alcohol. This sets the scene. AS we know, child care protection professionals look at risk factors such as this as predictive of more serious risk and of a need to investigate the child's welfare. The thinking is this is an example of behaviour where the parents and their attitudes to adequate childcare are seriously lacking. It is by acting on such risk factors that more serious abuse is often detected following an investigation. Sadly in Madeleine's case it was too late. It is not for the twins.


Viv x

Unknown said...

Hiya Bianca and Wizard

Causing death through gross negligence is manslaughter. For example in R v Wacko a lorry driver brough Chinese People illegally into the UK in the back of the container of his lorry. 14 of them died due to lack of oxygen, failure to check them.

To prove manslaughter the court has to ask itself to basic questions. Was there an unlawful act? Did that unlawful act cause the death of someone? If so that person is guilty of manslaughter.

"Gross negligence" to be considered an unlawful act has to be behaviour that falls so far below the behaviour of a reasonable person, it can be considered criminal as in Wacko. In another case of gross negligence manslaughter R v Adomaka an anaesthetist failed to notice for 6 minutes the oxygen tube was not connected to the patient, failed to notice he was going blue. This was held to be grossly negligent and he received 3 years for manslaughter.

Therefore if Madeleine died because there was an hour in between checks during which time her parents were getting very drunk they would be guilty of gross negligence manslaughter. The Portuguese may call it something slightly different but it means the same thing.

However, in view of the evidence of the dog I fail to see how this was possible because the body would have needed to be in place to start exuding those distinctive chemical smells the dog picks up on. Also they would not have had time to report this matter at 10.40 or thereabouts.

But if she did die in this way, I think it is reason enough not to admit it, they would have known it was manslaughter, not simple neglect in the circumstances.

Viv x

Anonymous said...

Hi all

On the neglect charges, I think I read these have to be brought within 6 months or something like that in Portugal. In the UK it is the same, if there is nothing much to investigate charges will be brought immediately, e.g. Shannon's abductor. This was always an enquiry into more serious offending IMO and those were not the charges they were thinking about. Also, due to needing very strong evidence to support such serious charges, beyond reasonable doubt and the cover up/clean up that took place/no body, one that was going to take a long time, a lot of work and cost a lot of money.

Viv x

Monday, 31 March 2008 11:46:00 o'clock BST
================================================================

Well Viv, you know I am not convinced that they killed Madeleine (accidentally or otherwise), however, what you suggest would certainly explain why the Portuguese authorities never charged them with neglect. According to Alsabella, the Portuguese people were outraged that neglect charges weren't levied, as normally in a case like this, they would be in Portugal .. so why weren't they this time? It makes sense, I must admit, that neglect charges weren't laid this time because the PJ believed there was more to the story than this.

Unknown said...

Madge

My understanding is that a corpse starts to decompose after death and within two hours starts to produce the distinctive chemical odours so the body has to be actually there to start producing this smell.

If Payne is lying that he saw Madeleine alive at 6.30, and I think he is, then clearly the body could have been there for the minimum period necessary for these chemicals to start to be produced i.e. two hours. That would then bring us back to either Kate or Gerry actually killing Madeleine, rather than suffering an accident whilst being left alone.

Gina said...

Hi Viv I was busy on my computer last night but reading you all as and when I could, some very interesting posts. I also saw the anon pros went into overdrive but as you are too quickfingered on the button I could not work out what they were getting in a fizz about. I deleted sassypops site a while ago so do not read it anymore so I did not look on there to see if they were reporting back their usual inaccurate interpretation of the comments. I have never known a case like this it has generated so much hysteria and racist remarks which are so unnecessary. I actually defended some of the "opposition", saying I did not think they were racist, but I was wrong about that and will never do it again.

On a different note, isn't it amazing just how many interviews someone who is an arguido has managed to make. Also when you read them does anybody else find the comments alledgely made by the children a tad odd for children so young.

I had better get on with what I have do do - read you all later

Anonymous said...

On 3A's or Mccannfiles can't remember which it states that Nanny Pennington says the twins were not in the appt when she went just after 10pm, they had been taken to someone elses appt, yet Gerry says they were sleeping soundly and they carried them off later. Not seen this from the horses mouth. Think it was quoted as from one of the docs at the time. If so i bet she's on the PJ list. Anyone have a link?
By the way what happened to Alsabella's forum?

Unknown said...

Hiya Bianca

I know lots of people have been outrage that no neglect charges were brought but the more serious offending is the reason.

There is a fundamental legal rule and this is universal that if you are going to bring a legal case against someone then you have to bring the whole case before the court. You cannot come to court and complain about just one aspect of that behaviour and then come back again another day with yet more serious complaints to make. This is concerned with the proper administration of courts and justice - a piecemeal approach is not allowed. The facts of the neglgence will form part of the more serious case and are therefore part and parcel of it. On many many occasions prosecutors will overlook more minor offending of witnesses because their testimony is so important in a more serious case. In this instant however what the witnesses subsequently did was so serious they may well be charged as well, but if they had been charged it would have frustrated the whole process of investigating the McCanns because they could then have gone silent...(!)

Anonymous said...

Viv
With regard to the neglect charges which Alsabella confirmed had to be brought within 6 months. Do you feel there could be an exception as they were waiting for confirmation that she had died as a result.

Unknown said...

Hi Madge

If Madeleine died as a result of being left alone, neglect will not be the charge, it will be manslaughter.

Child neglect is a common offence and one that is often dealt with by Social Services in the UK without involving the police at all. When a child actually dies as a result then the parents are in very serious trouble, as the McCanns are and of course criminal charges will always follow.

Viv x

Anonymous said...

"The facts of the negligence will form part of the more serious case and are therefore part and parcel of it." - Viv

Interesting. So (if I understand it correctly) even though they haven't been charged with negligence yet, the negligence charges will form part of a more serious, overall case (if, indeed, it actually gets to court).

Thanks for the legal stuff Viv. I come from a family of legal eagles but have never been too great on legal detail myself.

:-)

Anonymous said...

But again, I put the question to whoever feels they can answer it:

Can manslaughter charges be brought on the basis of DNA findings without there being an actual body?

Unknown said...

Hiya Bianca

Prosecutors will always go for the most serious charges. In any murder/manslaughter case there is invariably a vast amount of evidence but there are always very specific charges, i.e. they unlawfully killed Madeleine and disposed of her body.

It is not every piece of evidence the court hears that actually proves the basic charges laid, it is the totality of that evidence. If the negligence itself is a very important part of the McCanns killing Madeleine by leaving her alone, it will form a central part of the evidence the prosecutors focus on. If it is not, it will form part of the general evidence about what sort of parents they are as in the medical evidence about Kate, her diary etc. Either way it is not the least bit helpful to them!


Viv x

Unknown said...

Hi Bianca

It is accepted that any prosecution based purely upon DNA evidence and without a body would certainly not be the best case they could bring and may result in failure.

I believe there is a vast amount of other evidence in this case. The mobile phone evidence for example and the lies and inconsistencies in the accounts of the McCanns and their friends..make no mistake, this is extremely powerful evidence!


Viv x

docmac said...

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/39741/Madeleine-police-to-quiz-friends

Was up for <10 minutes. There were 2 comments, one from AnneR (you can guess the content of that one word post) and the other from Jojam suggesting to DX they were making a judgement error and that they should pull the HYS. Result.

Unknown said...

Bianca

Perhaps I should just add to that, the prosecution will undoubtedly produce an awful lot of forensic evidence as to the tests conducted at the apartment..that an abduction simply could not have taken place! Again, extremely powerful evidence.

Viv x

Unknown said...

Hiya Doc

Very interesting..did you happen to get the article before it went whoosh ..just tried to get it but not even cached!

Are the DX playing cames with the McCanns again?


Viv x

Margarida Cruz e Silva said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Anonymous, since when is it libellous to believe something? Make no mistake. Your lot and the McCanns do not run our minds. They may even get off with the neglect and whatever else happened but to many of us they will always be guilty. And there is no way they can change that. None whatsoever. Now sue me.

Margarida Cruz e Silva said...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080331/tuk-mccann-friends-to-be-quizzed-by-poli-dba1618.html

It is also British news!

Unknown said...

Anon

You do not know anything about the law of libel or criminal law, are not the protector of the McCanns and plainly do not even have the nous or intellect to be able to differentiate between libel and an opinion on matters in the public domain.

Go and get a life of your own or send Carter Ruck another email. The legal secretaries will be able to sit and have a good laugh at you and I am sure like to have some amusement in their serious work x

docmac said...

No Viv I refreshed the page to see if there were any more comments and it was gone. It was just about the imminent arrival of the PJ and CM getting his word in about how much Kate and Gerry are looking forward to it. Got to go now - floors to sweep, toilets to clean ;-).

docmac said...

Yes, Marga. Same article exactly!

Anonymous said...

Anon,

You must be worried, why say things like 'sue me' without having the guts to use your blog name?

Silly billy

I think I smell a rat...

Anonymous said...

Clarrie says the McCanns would gladly cooperate with the police. Te he he

When the police finally ask to interview them and IMO they refuse, in Leichester, the world will know what is really going on. Good move, Clarrie!

Anonymous said...

Hi again Viv, and again, thanks for the legal rundown.

I am right in thinking that even in the event of really strong DNA evidence of a corpse (that matches poor Madeleine's DNA), the McCanns will nevertheless received a less severe sentence than if there was an actual body involved?


Or would it make no difference?

Sorry if this is turning into Legal Studies 101! If I start to get on your nerves just let me know! lol

Unknown said...

Hiya Doc

So the DX were one, reporting the facts and two, reporting what Clarence Mitchell has to say.

So what did they pull the article for, Clarence saw one post against the McCanns, his blood pressure went off the scale, and he immediately rang the DE to say you are at it again you B******s, how dare you let the public have their say:-)

I will be thinking of you cleaning floors as I sit here in my darkened room, chain smoking and selecting a persona to post under from my repertoire of 19 others :-)

Margarida Cruz e Silva said...

The wonder couple were not requested to answer any question!!!

They could volunteer, couldn't they? I mean to HELP the police...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous

I don't have a blog name because I don't believe in registering personal data on the internet. Why? What is it to you anyway, do you want to invite me to dinner?

Anonymous said...

Dear Viv

These McCann "friends" seem to think they can keep everyone quiet by threatening legal action. They achieve precisely the opposite. If they must scream libel at every corner it is because there is something to hide, IMO.

I also suggest they move to Iran or Saudia Arabia. Perhaps there they could control public comment and opinion - that is of a certain PR person knows the right people...but I doubt it.

Margarida Cruz e Silva said...

Docmac,

maybe the DX is patient enough to wait one more week to them pay back.

Who knows?

docmac said...

Viv, just before I leave, do you remember a poster called shit4brains on the DX? There is a new poster called shitforbrains. Check today's DX article called 'ban the hood for good', specifically the post at 3am. Check this person's profile. RING ANY BELLS?????

Anonymous said...

"They could volunteer, couldn't they? I mean to HELP the police..." - Marga

Yes Marga, just to do the police a favour, as it were. Oh, providing they didn't have anything else on that day, of course!

Anonymous said...

Bianca how dare you! Now you know Gerry has a tennis match to play and Kate needs to get her hair highlighted...again!

Anonymous said...

There are two regular posters, who are now unable to post using their real blog names.

One used to run a disgusting libellous blog until recently and the other one now posts from some country near the middle east.

I think they are cleverer than most here and have decided to cut their losses, because there are consequences to libel, however much people may want to disguise it as opinions and freedom of speech.

This was never meant to be a threat, neither were the other posts.

Just a mere observation of facts, like it or not.

Unknown said...

Hiya Bianca

The prosecution have to prove the charge on the indictment beyond reasonable doubt i.e. perhaps manslaughter.

I think you are again confusing the evidence in the case with a finding of actual guilt of the offence charged. The lack of a body goes to another charge that they are likely to face, disposal/concealment of the body and would therefore substantially increase the overall sentence they will receive on an assumption of a finding of guilt to both charges. Of course there may well be other serious charges like conspiracy to pervert the course of justice..When it comes to a sentencing exercise the judge will weigh up all the evidence and the offences for which they have been found guilty and look at what would be a correct sentence overall on the totality of that offending. For this reason, in the McCann case, it is likely to be far worse than if they had just admitted it in the first place!

Viv x

Anonymous said...

You must be referring to the libellous blog run by some self-proclaimed "pros" that have named a specific police officer of a foreign force and made seriously liable allegations about him. Yes, they are in big trouble, of that I have no doubt.

Margarida Cruz e Silva said...

Anonymous said...
Bianca how dare you! Now you know Gerry has a tennis match to play and Kate needs to get her hair highlighted...again!

Monday, 31 March 2008 13:25:00 o'clock BST

LOL

BTW I'm glad the tennis ball is now on his part of the ground!
This is a never ending Saga...

Anonymous said...

Ratty anon,
I very much doubt they are in any trouble for that.

If they are it is up to the PJ themselves to sort them out.

Nothing to do with you.

Unknown said...

Hiya Marga

I think the DE has all the patience in the world and will be thinking how much that half a million is accruing in interest and sales they will make at some future time. A very sound investment - they are hard nosed business people and ss they say in the business world, sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate. There is no doubt, for the press, the McCanns are massive money spinners for them of Princess Diana proportions. In fact it is the replacement money earner for the press having spun Diana's story for 11 years they now have a replacement!

Viv x

Anonymous said...

Marga, do you know what's up with Alsabella? Why has she stopped her blog?

Anonymous said...

Hi everyone!

BBC Radio 4 this morning confirmed the proposed visit of the PJ's to question the Tapas friends. That was followed by - "Kate and Gerry McCann deny they are guilty of any wrongdoing"!!!

What not even the wrongdoing of leaving their young children along in an unlocked apartment!!

They seem to be suffering from a flight of fancy syndrome!

If they hadn't gone off partying their daughter Madeleine would be alive and playing with her siblings now!

I agree with Gina - the other tapas friends who left their children should also be charged with child abandonment - why should they be given any different treatment to the McCanns in that respect?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous

And is it up to you to come on here and try to threaten the posters and misinform them, in a pathetic attempt to silence them?

I have no doubt a few of them will be sued. They made very serious allegations against someone that is not an arguido in this case. They will face their day in Court. And they need not worry about it being a foreign country. The writ will be sent and dealt with in their home towns.

Unknown said...

Hey Anon/self-appointed protector of all things Kate and Gerry McCann and why is it you cannot post on here using your blog name?

Could it be because you know full well you are permanently barred from this site. I am actually doing you a favour here because the more you become involved in all of this the worse your paranoid delusions and psychosis become.

Viv x

Margarida Cruz e Silva said...

Anonymous said...
Marga, do you know what's up with Alsabella? Why has she stopped her blog?

Monday, 31 March 2008 13:35:00 o'clock BST

No , I don', but I've heard she is coming again.
Perhaps she's travelling to the UK and will only come back after the 11th?? :-))

Anonymous said...

Dear Viv

Anonymous will soon be too busy explaining in a Court of Law why it insisted in making liable allegations against someone that has not taken part in this investigation for several months.

Anonymous said...

Marga 13.39pm,

LOL!

Unknown said...

Hi Anon

I agree poor Mr Murat has been very seriously libelled and will sue the big guns who allowed these idiots to write all that filth about him, not even deleting posts of Christabel, Rosie etc.

Watch out DE you could be in the firing line again!

Viv x

Margarida Cruz e Silva said...

Anonymous,

their tactic didn't work at least to their cause.
Too obvious for clever BIG RATS.

Anonymous said...

I knew it was you rat,

Why aren't you using your blog name?

Anonymous said...

Supertroll's site.

I was over at the pro's blog again last night. I don't know why I do it. Well actually, yes I do. I have always been a crusader. Oh, nothing too big time. I like my cosy house and my creature comforts, but in small ways, I like to crusade. I remember at school I always liked to talk sense to the bullies, and sometimes, believe it or not, it actually worked - I actually changed the occasional person's way of thinking! I think this is what going into the pro blog is about for me. I keep telling myself that one day, I can make them see sense, and admittedly, they let me have my say there (within certain boundaries, of course!) and occasionally, they even engage in rational conversation.

However, when coming across the contents of the Supertroll's blog last night (not long after I'd been "chatting" to the pro's on the Justice For All The Family blog) I realised that some people are just too far gone, too full of hate, and too lacking in brain matter to ever be able to return to (or initiate into) the rational, sane world. I realised that some people just aren't worth crusading to - you'd be better off just leaving them behind in the unkempt, uncivilised, dog-eat-dog jungle that they sprang from. Supertroll's "Dream" thread was one of the most hideous, hate-filled tirades I have ever seen! And what's worse, the rest of the pro's came in their numbers (which luckily - knock on wood - are not many!) to clap their hands in approval. This made me regret going into their blog, and having anything to do with any of them. Obviously, there is a comical aspect to Supertroll and co's "descriptions" of the anti's. It is funny, because it is so desperate, clutching, and immature! These people have long lost the plot, and are transparently not interested in Madeleine or even her parents any more, but simply in spitefulness and "blog wars". However, it is difficult to laugh at such "comedy", driven as it is, so obviously, by hate.

My crusades to the Dark Side shall stop now, as I realise that sometimes, the darkness is simply too dark, the ignorance too ignorant, and the depravity too depraved!

Anonymous said...

Never in my life have a witnessed such behaviour in a case of the disappearance of a child. This reminds me of some of the Washington DC lobbies in the US.

Are these people looking for a child or running the McCann Corporation?

Margarida Cruz e Silva said...

Viv,

forgot Murat. yes, he should do the same.

Margarida Cruz e Silva said...

Well,
have a nice debate.

Beijinhos para todo(A)s.xxxx

Anonymous said...

I am not Rat. I told you before I don't believe in registering and providing personal data on the internet.

Anonymous said...

Ratty anon,
No, you didn't say so before, and I chose to believe otherwise.
Freedom of expression and opinions, darling.
Byeeeeee

Unknown said...

Hiya Bianca

Thanks for your insight into the dark and depraved world of Supertroll and the rest of them.

It is best to just leave them to it and not engage with them at all. Some of them clearly have serious mental health issues.

I can point this out to my posters, but like you, people have to see it for themselves.

Thanks
Viv x

Di said...

Good afternoon Viv and all

I have just been reading BBC news regarding the re-interviewing of the Tapas. I found the last paragraph rather odd......


Separately, lawyers for the couple have requested that two dozen other witnesses be interviewed, including staff from the Ocean Club complex and several British holidaymakers.

Is this sort of request normal.

Anonymous said...

bianca
not forgetting tht refusal to answer any questions is similar to an admission of guilt .

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