5 Jan 2008


Short dark hair, 35-40, dark jacket, light trousers ummmmmm funny that Jane! Oh Whoops no well he definitely was 5-7 to 5-9" (unlike my man who is massive !) but he did NOT have short hair just like Murat he was Latin looking and had long hair and I am not sure if he was heading towards the beach or Murat's bungalow sometimes I am in two or three minds...funny there is an Irish couple who saw someone heading for the beach carring a little girl...
The Smiths were leaving Kelly’s Bar — 400 metres from the McCanns’ apartment — between 9.50 and 10pm on May 3 last year.
They flew home to Ireland the next day, but when the times of Maddie’s abduction were revealed, the family remembered seeing a man, 5ft 7in to 5ft 9in tall and dressed in beige, carrying the child.
Significantly the description matches that given by Jane Tanner, 37, a friend of the McCanns. I have always thought that Jane Tanner seemed to be describing Gerry McCann. Strange how she changed the description so that it would not match Murat - that could get her a few years for trying to frame him but also so that it no longer completely matched Gerry either by later claiming Latin dark skin and long hair. Jane I think you are a bit of a twister lady! But you were probably right to think someone might have saw a bundleman! Only trouble is it clearly was not you!
I wonder why Rosiepops has not jumped on this story like she normally does???? Ummmmmm Maybe someone should ask her?
Viv x


docmac said...

Viv, my favourite topic, Jane Geraldine Tonic (GT) ahem Tanner, and bundleman. My views:

1. Did this "abductor" take 35-45 minutes to cover 400 metres? He must have be as short of breath as Maudlin7 is.

2. The fact that the PJ were not interested in the Smith's story suggests that they knew early on that Jane was not telling the truth. This raises questions about the Smiths possibly making a false statement. Did they mishear '9.15' as '9.50' on the phone and after a quick calculation arrive at an approprate 'departure time' from Kelly's of beween 9.50 and 10pm, allowing for the "abductor's" stroll? There is another possibility, see point 5 below.

3. My suspicions are further aroused by the fact that the Smiths only found out about the "abduction" and the alleged time thereof once they got back home. I have always read that virtually the entire village got up to search that evening. There were a lot of lights and there was much noise. Additionally, are they saying that after rising on the morning of the 4th, settling their accounts, bidding farewell to staff and friends or acquaintances, preparing for transfer to the airport etc, they heard NOTHING? Not bloody likely.

4. I agree she deliberately initially described Gerry. Firstly because she had heard that Gerry was speaking to Jez at the time and therefore Gerry 'could not' be bundleman. Secondly because the description was nothing like her partner which was more important to her, as he had no verifiable alibi at all. I noted the much later "I was carrying" slip, which is of course her quoting what she had been told later.

5. There is the possibility that the Smiths did indeed see someone carrying a child around 9.25-9.30 and got the time wrong. If this were true I suggest it was Gerry carrying Maddie to the waiting O'Brien who had been preparing a welcome with Gerry's shovel for almost half an hour.

6. There are two facts I have told you about before, Viv. Jane Tanner never left the Tapas premises until around 10pm and Russell O'Brien only arrived back at the apartment between 10.30 and 10.40 at which time Gerry gave the go-ahead for the call to the GNR. He had never been back to the restaraunt. Where had he been? I think there can be only one conclusion. I read today that the source of these facts, the Tapas 1 may be travelling to Portugal in the next couple of days. I don't think it will make the news as he is still seeking immunity.

7. Those text messages sent by Gerry are vital to the prosecution, especially between 10 and 10.30. I reckon most if not all were to Russell. "Are you almost finished?. Can we make the call now, the place is cleaned up nicely and the twins are still well sedated."

felicity said...

Hiya Doc

Great points - just about to go out and eat! Will comment fully later on.

Luv Viv x

PS The Daily Express are telling it like it is today arnt they - sweet angelic pic of Kate and him - looks like old lucifer himself! Notice no pros want to comment..

felicity said...

Hiya agian Doc - back now - dont know whether you are still around but I hope so.

Jane Tanner puts the time of her sighting at 9.15 - so presumably we can take that as reasonably accurate on the assumption she is covering for Gerry carrying her off. Thought Gerry's comment that it was so quiet he had never seen anyone around before until seeing Wilkins that night was ominous! The Smiths say 9.50 to 10 pm - I think they probably did see someone - quite possibly Gerry but much earlier than they say. Now we have the revelation of their sightiing we can see why Gerry got Jane to lie saying she had seen bundleman - to cover for him. Your suggestion that meanwhile OB was digging the hole does seem quite possible. I believe there are witnesses who say he returned to the table at about 10 pm and had changed his trousers! I believe the 14 texts were probably mainly between OB and Gerry to "co-ordinate" things. Gerry says he checked the children at 9.05 but Wilkins say he saw him around 9.20! In that 15 minute period it would seem he carried Madeleine off. I think this would be when he was on his way back to stage the break in but Wilkins caught him messing with the shutters.

I believe the PJ have stated they were loath to publish Jane Tanner's alleged sighting because they did not find it credible but then did so following direct intervention from Gordon Brown.

I think the Smith's alleged sighting of a possible bundleman is the only reasonably credible one we have had to date - the only other one being Jane Tanner - who never left the table. The fact that they apparently flew back to give PJs a statement adds further credibiity. It is quite possible they were confused about the exact time they saw this. What is more difficult to fathom is that they did not realise its significance until getting home. I think this could be explained in terms of the additional thoughts were that Madeleine had simply wandered off and everyone was looking for her. So they did not immediately think the sight of a man carrying a child was significant until reading the papers where, of course, gerry had ensured it was immediately reported as an "abduction".

I do not agree with point 6 - I think OB did go back to the table and this was Kate's cue to go and do the check. There is clear evidence that this was never the womens job and up until that time none of them had ever done any checks - including Jane Tanner! Strange she just happened to be back at her apartment when the alarm was raised! I certainly do agree however that it is very likely the Tapas 1 will be travelling back to Portugal to give him amended statement in the next few days - before it is too late! Also clearly this is unlikely to hit the press, but it would be interesting if it did!

We do not seem to be poles apart!

Always very pleased to have your input.

Viv x

Anonymous said...

Very interesting posts from docmac and viv..........But docmac is stating that it is a 'fact' that ROB didn't return to apartment until around 10.30 and then the police were called....This would tie in with all the speculation that police were not called immediately.

felicity said...

Hiya Anon

Glad you found Doc and my own posts interesting. My take on them not calling the police until 10.40 and the continuing texting that had been going on since about 9.15 is that OB was probably still down at the beach making sure things were tidy before the police could be called!

The apartment, as we have heard, was exceptionally immaculate - lots of cleaning already done!

Viv x

docmac said...

Hello Anon

Viv I disagree with you. Sorry, but..

If Gerry were to stage everything properly he would surely have attempted to fake the break-in before attempting to move Madeleine, precisely because of what actually happened. He was disturbed while doing so, luckily only by an aquaintance. If he had been disturbed by a stranger the alarm might have been raised, thus destroying all staging if Madeleine was already 'gone'. Gerry is a fit guy, he had plenty time to 'deliver' the body and return to the table 'around' 9.30.

Second point of disagreement, according to the Tapas 1 Russell did not return to the table at all. I personally would give more credence to this statement than others, as I am sure the PJ will too. Who were those 'witnesses' by the way? Sounds to me that but for Gerry playing tennis the Tapas lot pretty much hung out together. I'm not too sure that it was not Gerry returning in new clothes that was reported. Oh, I wish I had a friend in the PJ ;-)

felicity said...

sory I meant he had gone back down to the beach - just checking the coast was clear (no pun intended) and texting Gerry to give him the OK - note Jane said she was back in her apt at 10 - no mention at all in Panorama of his whereabout which was highly suspicious!

I think he did come back to the table to give Kate the signal but then popped off again knowing there would be a delay before calling the police - decided in texts with Gerry - I need to do a bit more work (dirty another pair of trousers!)

If the police can actually get the contents of those texts then I think they have had it and I believe they do! Remember we were told in the early stages emails and calls had been intercepted whch made the police suspicious - they have always known! Gerry was just stupid enough to think he could get away with it - hence the look of pure joy outside the Whitehouse on the side of this page and then now the look of pure rage - nothing annoys a psychopath more than someone who can see right through their lies! They need to be in control and get dangerously angry when they are not!

Viv x

Anonymous said...

Didn't one of the waiters state that there was an empty chair all night.........also talk that the quiz mistress said the same.

felicity said...

Hiya again Doc

Did not see your post before putting the last two up.

Now this is getting good because we disagree.

I think Gerry would be a hyper organised control freak who has a set way of doing everything. So that night he would have prioritised what he needed to do. To me it is perfectly logical that moving the body out of the aparment would be job number one and this he did in between about 9.05 and 9.15. He then came back to stage the break in but got interrupted by the presence of Jez ~Wilkins - this is why there is a terrible hole in their scheme! He had planned to be back at the table by 9.30 to alibi himself - he just had to be because the abduction had to take place before 10 pm when Kate went to check! They went with the original scheme telling relatives and friends on the phone the shutters had been jemmied and the window open but in fact they were not and of course forensics have proved this to be a lie - it was said no one could have done this without leaving traces of fibre and DNA scrape marks in mildew etc on window frame - there were none. Caught out because he had not managed to stage a break in he then says well we left the door open!

I have not seen or heard of any statement that OB did not return to the table. I believe the waiter says he did around 10 pm and tht he was missing for about an hour - his excuse daughter being sick changed sheets - contradicts TAnner who claims she was checking at 9.15 and there is clear contradiction in her account as to whether she was just coming out or just going back for a check. No wonder the PJ say their stories dont check out!

Now get a load of that!

If you have details of any wit that says he never returned to the table can you send me a link

Luv Viv x :-)

docmac said...

The 'link' came in through my right ear and passed straight through to my memory bank, Viv! The source is seeking immunity from prosecution as a possible accomplice and there is no way I am going to jeopardise this by revealing anything more on any public forum as this may be a huge step towards justice for Maddie. I still disagree about the 'order of business' for Gerry too, but will not take this further. Let's agree to disagree.

Anonymous said...

Thanks to you both and goodnight.

SueB said...

So this is where you all are?! Found you at last. I haven't been on DX for weeks, until a couple of days ago that is, then I only had time to deposit one post but couldn't hang around. I've missed you all, how are you?? Interesting site Viv, good work.

felicity said...

OK Doc - I do not think we disagree that much - clearly have the basic gist and note your source so you may well be right he never did go back to the table.

Hello again Sue - just welcomed you aboard on another thread! I am glad you like the site - clearly the more that keep visiting the better it gets!

Luv to you both
Viv xxxxxxxxxxx

felicity said...

Goodnight Anon - please call back - whoever you are !

Viv x

Anonymous said...

Does anyone wonder if Kate's screaming out "they've taken her" at 10pm was not in plans at all? That the abduction was intended to be "discovered" early morning on May 4th when K and G woke up? And the preemptive timing resulted in all the loose ends, brought JTs Bundleman to life, and the need for all those silly checking stories.

There are reports that O'Brien returned to the table just before 10pm. This prompts me with the thought that while Kate knew in her heart that the body had been taken away, which OB took care of during his 1/2 or longer absence, she lost her emotional control. "They" referring to the group (my guess 3 others) who planned the details of the staged abduction.

felicity said...

Hiya Anon

I agree with much of what you say. I do think OB returned to the table just before 10 and that was Kate's cue to make the grim discovery. This is what Gerry forced her to do and she must have been in extreme agony. I think when she walked in and saw Madeleine gone, even though she knew she would be, the shock and the horrow just overwhelmed her that her little girl was completely lost to her - no more cuddling goodbye and that is why she screamed they have taken her. Her initial reaction was not one of a mum who had negligently gone out and left her little girl with the door open and so would quite naturally assume she had wandered off. In those circumstances she would have had a huge rush of adrenalin to spring her into action to go and save her little girl. She would have immediately organised a search and with the help of the adrenaline surge been quite calm - because it is only in that state that parents can help their children in an emergency. In spite of all her medical training this is not what happened to Kate. She started collapsing in an incoherent heap. I am sure that is because the horror of what had happened and that she had completely lost Madeleine hit her.

It is the most terrible tragedy and I do not think Kate will ever be able to completely recover from this kind of trauma.

Kind Regards
Viv x

SueB said...

Hiya Viv, Hope you're well. Think I'm getting to know my way around at last! I'm slowly catching up with all the posts. Take care, Sue